1
00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

2
00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120
Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

3
00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:09,160
Speaker 1: today's best minds.

4
00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:10,640
Speaker 2: And Donald Trump.

5
00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:14,000
Speaker 1: Has turned down the rhetoric by calling Democrats the party

6
00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:16,800
Speaker 1: of hate, evil and Satan. We have such a great

7
00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,680
Speaker 1: joke for you today. Think like an economists owned Justin

8
00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:24,320
Speaker 1: Wolfers stops by to talk to us about the Trump

9
00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:30,320
Speaker 1: administration not releasing all sorts of data. I wonder why.

10
00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:35,400
Speaker 1: Then we'll talk to MSNBC's own Jacob sober Off about

11
00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:40,400
Speaker 1: the implications of having ice indiscriminately raid American homes. But

12
00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:42,240
Speaker 1: first the news.

13
00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:46,760
Speaker 3: Smill, I'm very disturbed that our politicians are not clocking

14
00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,240
Speaker 3: what's going on. I personally have always found it unacceptable

15
00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,559
Speaker 3: that we just raid immigrants homes and rip them out

16
00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,000
Speaker 3: away from their children. But now we're doing this to

17
00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,240
Speaker 3: US citizens, where you get detained for hours upon hours

18
00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,240
Speaker 3: without any call to your lawyer, and they get away

19
00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:03,840
Speaker 3: with this. And what happened in Chicago the other night,

20
00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,280
Speaker 3: it's an escalation that I feel our politicians should mark.

21
00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:12,200
Speaker 1: So it's called the Kavanaugh Stop, named for Brett Kavanaugh,

22
00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,200
Speaker 1: or as we call him on this podcast, Justice Keg stand.

23
00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:18,520
Speaker 3: I was gonna say, is it not a kegstand stuff?

24
00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:24,960
Speaker 1: Justice Kavanaugh kegstand. He stops people. So dhs run by

25
00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:32,679
Speaker 1: one puppy killer Christy Nome and her boyfriend Corey Lubandowski,

26
00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:37,520
Speaker 1: both people married to other people. But let us not

27
00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,959
Speaker 1: cast aspersions. They raided in an apartment buildings.

28
00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,240
Speaker 3: Ouadcast aspersions on their asparagus.

29
00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,880
Speaker 1: Yes, they didn't actually raid this because she's busy. She

30
00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,440
Speaker 1: had a photo shoot, right, she's busy wearing makeup and

31
00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,080
Speaker 1: expensive watches. They raid an apartment building, smashing down every

32
00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:58,040
Speaker 1: door and dragging entire families into the street, detaining everyone

33
00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:02,160
Speaker 1: for hours. You'll be shot to know that, just like

34
00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:08,519
Speaker 1: what happened during the Dwight Eisenhower administration when they did

35
00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,320
Speaker 1: this very same thing. One US citizen, that's right, A

36
00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:16,119
Speaker 1: US citizen, by the way. The whole idea that these

37
00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,639
Speaker 1: people don't have rights like we do. We are still

38
00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,160
Speaker 1: governed by international law. We are not like a black

39
00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:28,120
Speaker 1: site yet, but this is an American citizen was held

40
00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:32,119
Speaker 1: for five hours. ABC spoke to a woman who lives

41
00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,320
Speaker 1: in the building. She said ice agent took everyone in

42
00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,200
Speaker 1: the building, including her, asked questions. Later, they treated us

43
00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,160
Speaker 1: like we were nothing. She came into the hallway of

44
00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,720
Speaker 1: her apartment complex on the corner of seventy fifth and

45
00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,919
Speaker 1: South Shore Drive and her nightgout at ten pm, Ice

46
00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,079
Speaker 1: agents yelling police it was scary because I've never had

47
00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,040
Speaker 1: a gun in my face, Fisher said. They asked my

48
00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:54,960
Speaker 1: name and my date of birth and asked me did

49
00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,480
Speaker 1: I have any warrants? And I told them no, I didn't.

50
00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,320
Speaker 1: Fisher said she was handcuffed before being least around three am,

51
00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:03,880
Speaker 1: and she was told if anyone had any kind of

52
00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,800
Speaker 1: worn out for them, even it was unrelated to immigration,

53
00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:11,560
Speaker 1: they would be arrested. Very nice, very nice, Christy nom

54
00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:12,440
Speaker 1: thanks team.

55
00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:16,480
Speaker 3: I am almost just as mad that our politicians aren't

56
00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,080
Speaker 3: standing up to this. It's just I'm very angry.

57
00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. I want to point out something really important about

58
00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,120
Speaker 1: this news story, which is one of the very few

59
00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,800
Speaker 1: good things about this administration, is that they are doing

60
00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,760
Speaker 1: it out in the open. So this has gotten covered

61
00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:38,400
Speaker 1: by People Magazine. You know, People magazine. People Magazine is

62
00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:42,560
Speaker 1: not like The Times or the Washington Post, and People

63
00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:48,440
Speaker 1: Magazine is a media outlet that people read casually, and

64
00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,080
Speaker 1: part of the thing that we always spend a lot

65
00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,720
Speaker 1: of time puzzling about is like what breaks through. What

66
00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,600
Speaker 1: are the stories where people go, holy shit, this is

67
00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:01,280
Speaker 1: not okay. And when you have something like this where

68
00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:06,440
Speaker 1: it is in People magazine, when it is pictures, when

69
00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:11,400
Speaker 1: it's videos, when it's American citizens taken in their bathrobes

70
00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,240
Speaker 1: and nightgowns, when you look at the success of someone

71
00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,039
Speaker 1: like Victor orbon Or, you look at the success of

72
00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,360
Speaker 1: someone like Vladimir Putin, they didn't do this shit right away.

73
00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,440
Speaker 1: They built up to this stuff. So part of the

74
00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,080
Speaker 1: one really good thing about this administration is they are

75
00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,680
Speaker 1: doing the full on fast shit right now and that

76
00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,400
Speaker 1: is unbelievably as crazy as that sends, that's the good

77
00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,360
Speaker 1: news for us. Yeah, sorry, Jesse, I'm about good news.

78
00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:39,880
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm back from my disassociation.

79
00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:41,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

80
00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,080
Speaker 3: So we have this government shutdown right now. People like

81
00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:46,599
Speaker 3: my own wife are not getting paid right now. It

82
00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,039
Speaker 3: affects our home greatly. And Trump is figuring out how

83
00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,520
Speaker 3: he can dismantle the government, particularly one Russ fought, is

84
00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,960
Speaker 3: trying to figure out which quote unquote Democrat agencies should

85
00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:57,520
Speaker 3: get cuts.

86
00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,919
Speaker 1: Yeah. So again, it's hard to know what is just

87
00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:07,000
Speaker 1: crazy threats and what is real. But there are crazy threats,

88
00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:11,680
Speaker 1: and this is where we are. Are they freezing a

89
00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,560
Speaker 1: lot of stuff? Yes? Are they going to fire some people? Yes?

90
00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,719
Speaker 1: Will it ultimately backfrond them? Very possibly? Right now, the

91
00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,240
Speaker 1: polling shows that people are blaming Republicans because they control

92
00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:24,960
Speaker 1: all three branches of government. Does that mean they keep

93
00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:29,359
Speaker 1: blaming Republicans? Maybe? Maybe not. But I do think like

94
00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,360
Speaker 1: clearly what Trump is doing, and Trump did tweet about

95
00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,080
Speaker 1: Project twenty twenty five. Project twenty twenty five wildly unpopular.

96
00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,120
Speaker 1: Trump said he wasn't going to do it. Now he's

97
00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,560
Speaker 1: doing it, So I think that that is meaningful and

98
00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:44,680
Speaker 1: I think it's possibly problematic for him.

99
00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:49,000
Speaker 3: Almost fifty percent of it implemented already, so yeah. So

100
00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:53,720
Speaker 3: what's interesting though, is we are seeing that the White

101
00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,520
Speaker 3: House is panicking about the Obamacare subsidies, since it seems

102
00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:59,880
Speaker 3: like they're just hearing about this like the death of

103
00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,360
Speaker 3: Ruth Bader Ginsburg. But the set of GOP is betting

104
00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,400
Speaker 3: on the Dems not really showing up for a fight.

105
00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:12,640
Speaker 1: Republicans think Democrats Schumer's office, etc. Ocave. Maybe they will,

106
00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,280
Speaker 1: maybe they won't. There are a lot of Republicans who

107
00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:19,760
Speaker 1: are worried about these Obamacare premiums going up, and so

108
00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:24,240
Speaker 1: that is a real worry for some of these people

109
00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,080
Speaker 1: on the right too, because you know, there's a really

110
00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,520
Speaker 1: good article about this in the Wall Street Journal. Trump

111
00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,080
Speaker 1: ran on this idea he was going to make things cheaper, right,

112
00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,120
Speaker 1: I was told he was going to make things cheaper.

113
00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,600
Speaker 1: I was told bacon. If I'm being told bacon, where

114
00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,080
Speaker 1: is the There's no bacon here, baby. And Trump has

115
00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,040
Speaker 1: seems like he says he's willing to do some negotiation

116
00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,440
Speaker 1: on the Obamacare subsidies. So we'll see what happens. We

117
00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,919
Speaker 1: have not seen the last this. There is definitely a

118
00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:52,800
Speaker 1: negotiating platform here.

119
00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:58,720
Speaker 3: Somali. After Trump and Pete hegsas psychotic little episode where

120
00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:00,480
Speaker 3: they put on the show in front of the generals.

121
00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,200
Speaker 3: They talked a lot about war, and everybody's wondering, great,

122
00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,360
Speaker 3: who are we going to war for? It's very clear

123
00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,920
Speaker 3: from every poll that America has no taste for war. Well,

124
00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:09,560
Speaker 3: it looks like our first war is going to be

125
00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:10,840
Speaker 3: with the cartels.

126
00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're seeing a lot of retreads from season one.

127
00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,760
Speaker 1: He had wanted to do war with the cartels before

128
00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,960
Speaker 1: you know, he blew up all those fishing boats he

129
00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,720
Speaker 1: likes a cartel war. I don't know. I mean, none

130
00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,720
Speaker 1: of this is okay. Again, A lot of this is

131
00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:32,680
Speaker 1: like to desensitize people towards killings, right, I mean, that's

132
00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,200
Speaker 1: what is happening here. None of this, by the way, FYI,

133
00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,560
Speaker 1: is constitutional or anything. But you know, we could definitely

134
00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:46,520
Speaker 1: see more of this. Justin Wolfers is the host of

135
00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,880
Speaker 1: We Think Like an Economist podcast and a professor at

136
00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:50,920
Speaker 1: the University of Michigan.

137
00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,480
Speaker 2: Welcome too Fast Politics, Justin.

138
00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:57,760
Speaker 4: Wolfers, Molly, it's been ages dice Alis.

139
00:07:58,320 --> 00:07:59,280
Speaker 5: Wait two knows.

140
00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:05,240
Speaker 1: Isn't that the Bureau for Labor Statistics not releasing labor

141
00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,680
Speaker 1: statistics because of the shutdown? Or is it because Donald

142
00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,240
Speaker 1: Trump fire at the head of Bureau of Labor Statistics.

143
00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,400
Speaker 4: You are my favorite conspiracy theorist in the world.

144
00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:20,120
Speaker 1: But they were supposed to okay, go is that really

145
00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:21,240
Speaker 1: a conspiracy?

146
00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,040
Speaker 4: Yes, so this is what always happened in the past

147
00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:28,160
Speaker 4: during shutdowns. So a shutdown is anything that's discretionary spending

148
00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,200
Speaker 4: and non emergency or essential. And I know that you

149
00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:34,800
Speaker 4: hang on the job's numbers as if it was a

150
00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:35,960
Speaker 4: question of life or death.

151
00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,839
Speaker 1: Yes, everygon I'm like, I don't know how to feel well,

152
00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:40,360
Speaker 1: I see them.

153
00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:42,959
Speaker 4: I just want you to look inside, Molly and breathe

154
00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,880
Speaker 4: and see what's there for you.

155
00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:49,520
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right, so tell me.

156
00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:52,360
Speaker 4: So that's why the job's numbers are not being published,

157
00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:54,520
Speaker 4: literally because they're in the middle of a shutdown. Now,

158
00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,480
Speaker 4: the irony, if you wanted to get back to being infuriated,

159
00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,280
Speaker 4: is the numbers have all been collected and then sitting

160
00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,160
Speaker 4: on someone's desk that one person probably needs to just

161
00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:05,680
Speaker 4: hit publish, but that person's not allowed to work right now.

162
00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:07,760
Speaker 4: So what that means is that you and I and

163
00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:12,360
Speaker 4: all of our listeners have paid literally millions of dollars

164
00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,960
Speaker 4: to contact tens of thousands of businesses and tens of

165
00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,680
Speaker 4: thousands of Americans to find out what's going on in

166
00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,720
Speaker 4: the economy at this remarkable inflection point, and we don't

167
00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,439
Speaker 4: get any return on all that money that has been invested.

168
00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:29,079
Speaker 4: This is just one case study of the many pointless

169
00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,240
Speaker 4: case studies of dumb waste during a shutdown.

170
00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,520
Speaker 1: Right, So, there are humongous implications to shutting down the

171
00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:42,240
Speaker 1: government that are financial and a little bit maybe sort

172
00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,800
Speaker 1: of second order. Can you talk about that?

173
00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, at one level, I want to calm our

174
00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,360
Speaker 4: audience down at another level. I'll then help us all

175
00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:53,920
Speaker 4: feel a little more furious. So we're going to have

176
00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,920
Speaker 4: an emotional rollercoaster. Let me calm you down. First of all,

177
00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,280
Speaker 4: we have done this over and over and over and

178
00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:01,600
Speaker 4: over and over, over and over. Some of us have

179
00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,400
Speaker 4: been through many of these radios where the government is

180
00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,959
Speaker 4: shut down. Many years ago, this would have been regarded

181
00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,200
Speaker 4: as catastrophic, would have been regarded as embarrassing, humiliating for

182
00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,840
Speaker 4: the United States, for the White House, for Congress, that

183
00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:18,439
Speaker 4: we can't literally maintain a function in government. We've now

184
00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,560
Speaker 4: done it so many times that we're no longer humiliated

185
00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:26,160
Speaker 4: by it. The direct economic implications are relatively minor in

186
00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,640
Speaker 4: many respects. First of all, big parts of the government

187
00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,160
Speaker 4: are still running, so importantly, for instance, folks who rely

188
00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,960
Speaker 4: on Social Security. Social Security is not discretionary spending, as

189
00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,800
Speaker 4: most of the budgets what's called mandatory spending, none of

190
00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,760
Speaker 4: which is affected by the shutdown. So the Social Security

191
00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:44,720
Speaker 4: checks are still going out. That's a big part of

192
00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,960
Speaker 4: what the government does. Medicare Medicaid is still going on, right,

193
00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,680
Speaker 4: So it's the smaller part, which is called discretionary spending

194
00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,960
Speaker 4: that is affected within that, some functions are regarded as

195
00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,760
Speaker 4: essential the military, you know, certain types of security, safety

196
00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,560
Speaker 4: and so on. And because they're essential, those folks are

197
00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:05,680
Speaker 4: still working annoyingly for them. They're not getting paid, but

198
00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,920
Speaker 4: they're still doing their jobs. Then there's all the parts

199
00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,880
Speaker 4: that are deemed inessential and so producing employment numbers, producing

200
00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,840
Speaker 4: inflation numbers. The people who answer the phone at the

201
00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,560
Speaker 4: Federal Trade Commission when you call to say I think

202
00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,600
Speaker 4: someone's trying to fraud my mother, they don't answer the

203
00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,120
Speaker 4: phone anymore. It's not clear they've been answering the phone

204
00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,240
Speaker 4: for a while. And so there's many, many small functions

205
00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,480
Speaker 4: of government that you may not notice every day are

206
00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:32,960
Speaker 4: going to be missing. Now, if they're missing for a

207
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,080
Speaker 4: not very long period of time, it's not a big deal.

208
00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:35,560
Speaker 5: Great.

209
00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:39,000
Speaker 4: For instance, most of the federal government already closes down

210
00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,120
Speaker 4: two days out of the week, big Saturday and Sunday.

211
00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,280
Speaker 4: The economy keeps some going on, we just wait till Monday.

212
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,760
Speaker 4: So a short shutdown in some sense, just think about

213
00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,520
Speaker 4: it as another weekend, and that fraud call you wanted

214
00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,839
Speaker 4: to make, you'll just make in a few days.

215
00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:54,079
Speaker 5: Now.

216
00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,600
Speaker 4: The longer this goes on, the more important this becomes.

217
00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,560
Speaker 4: It becomes important directly because some of the services that

218
00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,560
Speaker 4: people need to become unavailable for so long that it

219
00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,560
Speaker 4: becomes difficult for them to do anything. More importantly, the

220
00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:08,480
Speaker 4: longer it goes on, the more we're learning about the

221
00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,400
Speaker 4: profound dysfunction and rot at the heart of the US

222
00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:16,439
Speaker 4: federal government, and that might cause all different forms of nervousness.

223
00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:18,400
Speaker 4: I'm going to pause so you can ask me a question,

224
00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:20,000
Speaker 4: but I can even tell you which question to ask

225
00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,960
Speaker 4: if you want, yes, goal, Molly, are you interested what

226
00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,400
Speaker 4: the president's advisors have told him and to telling congressional

227
00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:29,560
Speaker 4: Republicans the economic cost of this will be?

228
00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:30,720
Speaker 1: Yes?

229
00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:32,880
Speaker 4: Do you want to ask me a question about it? No,

230
00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:35,400
Speaker 4: just tell me, just look interested.

231
00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,360
Speaker 1: Said, it's so hard.

232
00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,000
Speaker 4: And when I talk to like these people like you

233
00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,840
Speaker 4: who have all these interests and things like culture and

234
00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:45,840
Speaker 4: the arts, and I'm.

235
00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,400
Speaker 1: Just economists, what is it? Tell me what it is?

236
00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:51,319
Speaker 5: But you've forgotten what questions you ask?

237
00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,640
Speaker 1: What have Trump's advisors told him the economic cost of

238
00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:56,200
Speaker 1: this will be? And then I want to know what

239
00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:57,440
Speaker 1: the political cost will be?

240
00:12:58,360 --> 00:12:58,600
Speaker 5: Great?

241
00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,080
Speaker 4: The counsel are going to be advised put out a

242
00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,120
Speaker 4: note a couple of days ago saying their estimate is

243
00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:08,080
Speaker 4: that this will shave point two percent off GDP growth

244
00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,480
Speaker 4: this quarter, or cost fifteen billion dollars. Here's the fun

245
00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,920
Speaker 4: part and why I'm so glad you're asked, Molly with

246
00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:19,320
Speaker 4: your vital interest. They made an arithmetic error. I'm not joking. Literally,

247
00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,480
Speaker 4: they got their sums wrong. This is not if I

248
00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:24,560
Speaker 4: were justin saying it's a different way of evaluating this,

249
00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:26,400
Speaker 4: I'd come and tell you that it's.

250
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:28,800
Speaker 5: Literally they made an arithmetic error.

251
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,120
Speaker 4: So they claim it'll be fifteen Every week of the

252
00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,360
Speaker 4: shutdown will cut fifteen billion dollars off US GDP, which

253
00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,479
Speaker 4: sounds terrifying. We'll come back to whether it is yeah,

254
00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:40,840
Speaker 4: and would reduce growth by point two percent. So if

255
00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:42,680
Speaker 4: we had four weeks of that, it would reduce growth

256
00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,280
Speaker 4: by point eight percent. That also starts to sound scary.

257
00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:49,120
Speaker 4: But actually their literal arithmetic error means they overstated everything

258
00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,520
Speaker 4: by a factor of four. I have pointed this out

259
00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,920
Speaker 4: to them and they have yet to issue any retraction.

260
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:56,680
Speaker 5: I know that surprises you.

261
00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,000
Speaker 1: Did you when you wrote them an email? Did you

262
00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:00,800
Speaker 1: get an email back with a poopomolgi?

263
00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,120
Speaker 4: I actually didn't email them. I just tagged them on

264
00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:05,920
Speaker 4: the Twitter. I figured that's why they must spend their

265
00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,560
Speaker 4: whole time I am going through the press office. They

266
00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:10,920
Speaker 4: know what's going on by now, so they've overstated it

267
00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:12,640
Speaker 4: by a factor of for I just want to just

268
00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:14,800
Speaker 4: linger for a moment on the irony. These are the

269
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,920
Speaker 4: people who want to fire the Commissioner of the Bureau

270
00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:22,240
Speaker 4: of Labor Statistics because they believe statistics are not quite

271
00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,880
Speaker 4: right and they literally miscalculated a percentage change, not a joke.

272
00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,040
Speaker 4: These are the PhD economists. These are the responsible ones

273
00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,920
Speaker 4: in the Trump White House. So actually the effect is

274
00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,040
Speaker 4: much much smaller than that. And actually the calculations say,

275
00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:38,560
Speaker 4: whatever we lose this quarter GDP will go back to

276
00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,880
Speaker 4: where it should be the following quarter when we get

277
00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:46,280
Speaker 4: back to reopening the government. And so actually the economic

278
00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:51,760
Speaker 4: costs macroeconomic costs a US GDP over twenty twenty five

279
00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,480
Speaker 4: for a week long shutdown will be one one hundred

280
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,840
Speaker 4: to one percent lower, which is tiny. I partly tell

281
00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,640
Speaker 4: you that story because I like to about the incompetence

282
00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:02,080
Speaker 4: of others.

283
00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:03,640
Speaker 5: Well, I don't like to talk about it.

284
00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:05,960
Speaker 4: I think it's important that people are aware of the

285
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:10,000
Speaker 4: nonsense that's coming out of the White House, partly to

286
00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,480
Speaker 4: point out this is not a macroeconomic story. So if

287
00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:14,200
Speaker 4: you're on the edge of your seat, worry that this

288
00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,560
Speaker 4: is a recession, it's just around the corner. I want

289
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,120
Speaker 4: to calm you down. And then we can still come

290
00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:20,720
Speaker 4: back and say, well, if the real number is not

291
00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,960
Speaker 4: fifteen billion, it's three and three quarter billion, we might

292
00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,600
Speaker 4: just notice here, Molly, you and I three and three

293
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,600
Speaker 4: quarter is a lot of billions. It's a lot of dollars.

294
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:34,040
Speaker 4: So even if it's not macroeconomics, this is like saying

295
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:38,680
Speaker 4: to the American people, we want to burn dollar bills

296
00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,760
Speaker 4: as a way of providing political advertising for one side

297
00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:47,280
Speaker 4: of politics or the other. And frankly, I find that disgusting, wasteful,

298
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:48,960
Speaker 4: and I wish we weren't treated this way.

299
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:54,440
Speaker 1: Yes, I wonder if you could talk a little bit

300
00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,920
Speaker 1: about how hard it is to run an economy when

301
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,640
Speaker 1: you can't necessarily try asked the information coming from the

302
00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,920
Speaker 1: White House, which is part of this. I mean, so

303
00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,080
Speaker 1: they made a mistake here, it sounds like, and they

304
00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,840
Speaker 1: do make mistakes because they move fast and break things

305
00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,040
Speaker 1: and are super incompetent, displaying like, what the sort of

306
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,880
Speaker 1: second order effects are of having an administration that BoA's

307
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,560
Speaker 1: isn'tcompetent but also is dishonest.

308
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:21,200
Speaker 5: Yeah.

309
00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,240
Speaker 4: So, look, there was a long rule in American politics

310
00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,320
Speaker 4: that when an American politician said, some threw, even if

311
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,840
Speaker 4: it were often cherry picked in misleading. Yeah, I better half.

312
00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,000
Speaker 4: Used to be on President Obama's Council of Economic Advisors,

313
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,480
Speaker 4: and before the stated in the nation, they would go

314
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,040
Speaker 4: through and there would be a check mark from the

315
00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:40,800
Speaker 4: different departments around the White House.

316
00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:42,359
Speaker 5: This fact is true.

317
00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,360
Speaker 4: It may not represent the whole truth, but it is

318
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,680
Speaker 4: a literal truth. And so when people have asked me

319
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,520
Speaker 4: the question that you asked me five years ago, I

320
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,160
Speaker 4: would say, any statistic coming out of a magic statistical agency,

321
00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,320
Speaker 4: the Census Bureau, the Bureau of Economic Analysis, the Bureau

322
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,080
Speaker 4: of laboris toistics, the Department of.

323
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:02,680
Speaker 5: Agriculture is true.

324
00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,720
Speaker 4: And facts coming out of the White House or cabinet

325
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:09,480
Speaker 4: secretary's mouths are true, although maybe literally true, or though

326
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,080
Speaker 4: maybe not the whole truth. That was what I said

327
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,840
Speaker 4: five years ago. What's important to understand where we are now,

328
00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:15,600
Speaker 4: it is still true. I want to take the heat

329
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,040
Speaker 4: down a little. It is still the case that data

330
00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,120
Speaker 4: coming out of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the Bureau

331
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,120
Speaker 4: of Economic Analysis, the Census Bureau, the Department of Agriculture

332
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,840
Speaker 4: is true. That may not be true for HHS, where

333
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,159
Speaker 4: Senator Kennedy is telling us that if we did more

334
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,080
Speaker 4: jumping jacks, we wouldn't get COVID. So what they're saying

335
00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,119
Speaker 4: is untrue on its face. But the statistical agencies still

336
00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,520
Speaker 4: have their independence, they still tell the truth, and they

337
00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,879
Speaker 4: still have that culture of truth telling. What we don't

338
00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,480
Speaker 4: have is any sense that anything the president or any

339
00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,280
Speaker 4: cabinet secretary says any time there shouldn't even be a

340
00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,760
Speaker 4: default now to believe them. The President walks around saying

341
00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,880
Speaker 4: things like, there is seventeen trillion dollars investment of investment

342
00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,480
Speaker 4: that I have personally raised. This is literally a number

343
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,080
Speaker 4: made up out of whole time, like genuinely just he

344
00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:06,960
Speaker 4: and then some days he wakes up in a bad

345
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:08,639
Speaker 4: mood and to make himself feel better he adds an

346
00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,320
Speaker 4: extra trillion to it. It's this is not a question

347
00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:16,360
Speaker 4: of political this or political that. This is bullshit, nonsense, horseshit, untrue.

348
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,879
Speaker 4: Treasury Secretary Percent, I think would prefer to tell the truth,

349
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,639
Speaker 4: but has to tell untruths to remain inside the circle,

350
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,320
Speaker 4: and as a result he now tells enormous and extraordinary untruths.

351
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,520
Speaker 4: The example I talked about a moment ago where a

352
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,800
Speaker 4: nerdy economist me points out to the Council of Economic

353
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:35,040
Speaker 4: Advisors they literally got their sums wrong, and they're not

354
00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,399
Speaker 4: going to respond to that because there's a culture of

355
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,040
Speaker 4: masculinity and macho and never admitting you're wrong, and weakness

356
00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,199
Speaker 4: and blah blah blah. Then means even the folks who

357
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,480
Speaker 4: were meant to be truth oriented within the White House

358
00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,200
Speaker 4: have given up on the truth. That is really worrying.

359
00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,000
Speaker 4: You ask for how it's worrying for the outside what?

360
00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:55,080
Speaker 4: Let me just pause on something even simpler. If you

361
00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:57,480
Speaker 4: spend enough time lying to the person next to you

362
00:18:57,560 --> 00:18:59,880
Speaker 4: and they spend time lying to you back, you start.

363
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:00,840
Speaker 5: To bully what you speak.

364
00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,440
Speaker 4: And so if you believe that the American economy is

365
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:05,239
Speaker 4: close to perfect and they're on the cusp of an

366
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,640
Speaker 4: investment boom, you're going to make policy choices that are

367
00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:09,240
Speaker 4: absolutely bananas.

368
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:14,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's.

369
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,240
Speaker 2: Like bailing out Argentina.

370
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,679
Speaker 1: Argentina, Oh you glad about the Argentina Baling.

371
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:21,640
Speaker 4: No, I don't really have a view, and I think

372
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,240
Speaker 4: too many of us reflex I think too many of

373
00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,639
Speaker 4: us are reflexively. You might have a sophisticated view, but

374
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,480
Speaker 4: I think many people who are anti Argentina bailout are

375
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 4: reflexively thinking about it. I have not actually been able

376
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:36,960
Speaker 4: to find enough serious insight into what's going on to

377
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:37,680
Speaker 4: have a strong view.

378
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:38,720
Speaker 5: I'm just slowly in.

379
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,800
Speaker 1: No. Yeah, clearly, I want you to talk about the soybeans.

380
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:47,760
Speaker 1: So we have Scott Assen, you know, saying on television

381
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,040
Speaker 1: that you talked to China and China said you remember

382
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,080
Speaker 1: you know the clip I'm going to ask you about I.

383
00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:55,720
Speaker 5: Do, and like, I love the fact.

384
00:19:55,720 --> 00:20:00,520
Speaker 4: Hello China speaking Minnesueta.

385
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I talked to China and they said they used

386
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:08,080
Speaker 1: to buy soybeans until Joe Biden, and now they don't

387
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:12,760
Speaker 1: buy sobeans anymore, and that is why our farmers are hurting. Okay,

388
00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:17,240
Speaker 1: we're nine months into Donald Trump's presidency. We know for

389
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,520
Speaker 1: a fact that this is a product of Trump's first presidency.

390
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,880
Speaker 1: So explain to me how Joe Biden got involved in.

391
00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,439
Speaker 4: Those So when I said they lie, they lie, I

392
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,359
Speaker 4: mean they love relentlessly The idea that this has anything

393
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 4: to do with Biden is absurd. So let me make

394
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,600
Speaker 4: a couple of analytic points. First of all, who didn't

395
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,680
Speaker 4: see this coming. Trump tried tariffs in the first term,

396
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:42,760
Speaker 4: China boycotted soybeans. Soybean farmers freaked out and needed a

397
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,159
Speaker 4: rest of US bailed them out. And that's a bailout

398
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,440
Speaker 4: where they send a check to keep money is coming

399
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,280
Speaker 4: out of your wallet to a soybean farmer.

400
00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:55,160
Speaker 1: Let me make it deeper, socialize the law, social liabtise

401
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 1: the games exactly.

402
00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,400
Speaker 4: Let me make a I think a more important analytic point.

403
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 4: Soybean farmers are hurting. Soybeans are fine. I don't have

404
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:09,119
Speaker 4: particular emotional attachment to soybean farmers. Maybe I'm not a

405
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:13,760
Speaker 4: real American. They are hurting, but they're also intensely organized.

406
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,200
Speaker 1: They're getting cash.

407
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,000
Speaker 4: And they get cash. They get cash that comes from yours.

408
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,840
Speaker 1: And my taxes because they have larbyats.

409
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 4: You and I and every member of our audience is

410
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,840
Speaker 4: paying tariffs and a lot of money in an incredibly

411
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,560
Speaker 4: regressive way. So as much as soybean farmers are hurting,

412
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:37,240
Speaker 4: remember farmers very rarely are like our depression era image

413
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 4: of them. They're often very large commercial enterprises. We do

414
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,080
Speaker 4: know that working class families are finding it much much

415
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,440
Speaker 4: harder to get buy and the cost of living particularly,

416
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,119
Speaker 4: they're the folks who buy their furniture from China, for instance,

417
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 4: who have seen a lot of their cost of living rising,

418
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,879
Speaker 4: have got even more coming up. They're hurting no less

419
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,480
Speaker 4: and possibly more than the soybean farmers. Not only are

420
00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 4: they getting no help, they're paying taxes to pay this.

421
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 4: So farmers, what this gives you? It's another side effective tariffs.

422
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:09,359
Speaker 4: Tariffs redistribute according to political power. Working the middle class

423
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 4: Americans lack the political power of soybean farmers, and twelve

424
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 4: fifteen billion dollars going out the door from the rest

425
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 4: of us to soybean farmers, the rest of us should

426
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 4: be getting checks as well. Mile, I have a solution

427
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 4: to many of our nation's problems. What I can get

428
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,480
Speaker 4: rid of stagflation. I can get rid of the ways

429
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 4: in which work in class of Americas.

430
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,160
Speaker 2: Wait, are we in stagflation?

431
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,639
Speaker 4: I mean I am. I see the unemployment rate rising,

432
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 4: I see inflation high and rising, and I see that

433
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,200
Speaker 4: the tariffs are going to make that worse. Now, if

434
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,720
Speaker 4: you want to be polite. You can call it stagflation light.

435
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:45,160
Speaker 4: This isn't quite as.

436
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 2: Bad tory stagflation.

437
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 5: Okay, we're going to do economic theory.

438
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,639
Speaker 1: Okay, you have ninety seconds go.

439
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:54,520
Speaker 4: I'm going to use the first twenty just telling you

440
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,360
Speaker 4: how much I love you, Molly. I don't need ninety

441
00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 4: I go.

442
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,120
Speaker 5: Tariffs are what has called a suppliia. Cost go up.

443
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 4: Therefore the farmers raise their prices and other businesses raise

444
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 4: their prices. During that period, you've got inflation because prices

445
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 4: are rising, and it takes a while for us to

446
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 4: rejeitter everything, and so some people lose their job, so

447
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 4: unemployment rises. Once we've stuck at this new equilibrium, the

448
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 4: claim is, and the hope is, and experiences and models

449
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:26,119
Speaker 4: suggest that it shouldn't keep going. Inflation's ongoing price rises,

450
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 4: this would be a rise in prices. Those higher prices

451
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 4: should not, in economic theory, continue forever. So the hope

452
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 4: is supply shocks callused transitory inflation.

453
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 2: Justin Wilfers.

454
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,719
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, a great pleasure.

455
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 5: Molly.

456
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 1: Jacob sober Off is a senior political and national correspondent

457
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 1: and MSNBC and the author of separated as well as

458
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 1: he will appear at MSNBC Live twenty five on October eleventh.

459
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politechs Sabarov.

460
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 6: Thanks Molly, good to see you.

461
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,360
Speaker 1: I'm really glad to see you. Let's talk about this

462
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 1: child separation because I do think like the only thing

463
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:13,439
Speaker 1: worse than twenty sixteen, twenty eighteen, the sort of just

464
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 1: watching this horror playout is now when it's playing out

465
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 1: ten times faster and ten times scarier.

466
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, and don't take it from me, take

467
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 7: it from the Republican appointed judges stopped the policy, who

468
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 7: literally called what they did in the first term one

469
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,360
Speaker 7: of the most shameful chapters in the history of the country,

470
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,360
Speaker 7: and that was, you know, the deliberate and forcable separation

471
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 7: of fifty five hundred children from their parents, which is

472
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 7: not a small number, it's enormous. And then it will

473
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 7: go down, you know, amongst all the other ignoble chapters

474
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 7: in our country's history. But now they're looking to supersize

475
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 7: it and we're watching it play out in real time,

476
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 7: and they literally have modeled this mass deportation program the

477
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 7: largest in the history of the country.

478
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,159
Speaker 6: Is what they want after Dwight D.

479
00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 7: Eisenhower's nineteen fifty four program that deported literally not only

480
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 7: did it have an insanely racist name, the official name

481
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 7: of the policy of the operation, but it deported a

482
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 7: million Mexicans and some Mexican Americans. And now we're seeing

483
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 7: that exact thing play out on the streets all over

484
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 7: the country, American citizens screaming, not only am I born here,

485
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 7: I'm a US citizen, my family are US citizens, And

486
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,919
Speaker 7: it doesn't matter, they're still snatching people up off the street.

487
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 6: It's both.

488
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 7: I think it shocks the conscious, just like the family

489
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 7: separation did, but it also is exactly what they said

490
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 7: they were going to do when I watched them report

491
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 7: about this from the floor of the convention, and everyone

492
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 7: held up those those science those mass deportation now signs yes.

493
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:35,880
Speaker 7: And I have to say, hey, Molly, like to sit

494
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 7: next to you. I won't forget what happened a couple

495
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 7: weeks ago, and we sat on the set with Nicole

496
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,719
Speaker 7: Wallace on Deadline, and these stories. I wish they affected

497
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 7: everybody like they affected you that day. And I was

498
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 7: very moved to be sitting next to you and talking

499
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 7: to you, because it's not just happening on the streets,

500
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 7: it's happening in the hallway of the immigration court. And

501
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 7: we told that story of Nori Santai Ramos, who was

502
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 7: deported as a high school track star honor student from

503
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 7: here in La Yeah, a senior. Her mother died a

504
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 7: couple of weeks after I was there. Now she's alone, well,

505
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 7: the mother died. The mother died, the family says of grief.

506
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 7: The story that they told us is that she had

507
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 7: medicine taken away for blood pressure issues when she was

508
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 7: in nice attention, never got it back, and literally one

509
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 7: night as she was going to bed, said she wasn't

510
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 7: feeling well and passed away. So now Nori is without

511
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 7: the mother that she was deported from Los Angeles with.

512
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 7: And we don't know how many Norris there are, how

513
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 7: many Estella's her mother?

514
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 1: And you see it right, because you see in the

515
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 1: detention centers in the courts. I mean, like yesterday we

516
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 1: saw a journalist get pushed to the ground and is

517
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: now left in a structure of the ambulance came to

518
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 1: take them away.

519
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,479
Speaker 7: Do you remember that I was just messaging with them

520
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 7: today because you know I was there too in twenty

521
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 7: six federal applause. And I watched all that stuff myself,

522
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 7: and not a lot of stuff shocks me. Not a

523
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 7: lot of stuff is surprising anymore. But to be there

524
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 7: and just to watch them pick off people one after

525
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 7: the next, after the next, after the next. Remember before

526
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 7: this journalist, a photojournalist was knocked down yesterday, put into

527
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 7: a neck brace and taken into a stretcher by ice,

528
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,239
Speaker 7: trying to get someone in the elevator. They did it

529
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 7: to a mother with the two children standing right there,

530
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,239
Speaker 7: and this is your last week, and they pushed her

531
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 7: exactly a whole other week of stories. It happens every day,

532
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 7: and I think the five hours out of there, I

533
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 7: saw them do it five times.

534
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 6: And this is because we know why.

535
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,719
Speaker 7: It is because Stephen Miller wants to hit a quota,

536
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 7: wants to hit a certain number of deportations every day

537
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 7: and every month so that they can get to this

538
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 7: one million plus number for the year. But if we

539
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 7: don't talk about the consequences, if we don't show what

540
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 7: the consequences are, I think we're failing to do our

541
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 7: jobs properly.

542
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I spend a lot of time thinking about,

543
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 1: like my grandfather during the House of American Activities and

544
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 1: what like this looks like in the context. So that's

545
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: why talking about Operation Went Back, which right is the

546
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: name of it, which we don't want to say because

547
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 1: it's so racist, but that was the name they called it.

548
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 7: That was the official name of an aeial government policy

549
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 7: in the Eisenhower administration.

550
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: I feel like it's so important to say stuff like

551
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 1: that because you know, this is who we are, this

552
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 1: is the country of Operation Went Back, and that's what

553
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 1: this is.

554
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 7: Just like when we think back about all of these

555
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 7: chapters like Native American genocide and slavery, and Japanese American internment,

556
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 7: and the turning back of the Jews, you know in

557
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 7: the Saint Louis back to the Holocaust, Native American boarding schools,

558
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 7: you name it. That's why when I wrote Separated about

559
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 7: famous Operation Policy, I called it inside an American tragedy

560
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 7: because very specifically, it is an American feature and phenomenon

561
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 7: to treat people in this way, particularly people who are

562
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 7: coming here to seek a better life.

563
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: Yes, one hundred percent. I just think about what does

564
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: it take to get people to change, What does it

565
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: take to have the moment where everybody changes, because what

566
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: we've seen in this particular moment in American history is

567
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: backlash to backlash to backlash to backlash. So like, there

568
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: was a moment that spurred on Black Lives Matter, and

569
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: it was that video of those cops with the guy

570
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 1: with his knee on George Floyd's neck and everybody just

571
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 1: sort of wandering around not stopping at So the question is, like,

572
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: what does it take for people, what is the breaking point?

573
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking about Illinois Governor Pritzker said get your

574
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: phone out and videotape everything you see, so I want

575
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 1: you to talk about that.

576
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 7: I think the people who are like definitionally performing the

577
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 7: greatest public service you can right now are local journalists

578
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 7: like La Taco Here in La which is a small

579
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 7: independent media organization with a handful of people who have

580
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,719
Speaker 7: been there. Started off talking about food, but I think

581
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 7: they deserve Pultzer Prize for their work around the ice

582
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 7: rates here over the summer and the extent to which

583
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 7: they helped document. They documented themselves, Lexus Oliver Ray and

584
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 7: so many other people Memo Torres with his daily updates

585
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 7: to let people see what was actually happening in the streets.

586
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 7: And I do think that in no small part because

587
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 7: of their work. The No Kings they wrote this in

588
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 7: June here in La were as big as they were

589
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 7: tat Liarry. Tens of thousands of people in the street.

590
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 7: And that was the first time during this administration that

591
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 7: I was reminded of the reaction to famous separation in

592
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 7: the first one. And that was hundreds of thousands, if

593
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 7: not millions of people in the streets all around the

594
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 7: not just around the country, around the world. And it

595
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 7: wasn't just bipartisan, it was a universal condemnation. The popes

596
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 7: spoke out, and that was the if not the one,

597
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 7: it was certainly one of the most major policy reversals

598
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 7: of the first Trump term where he backed down and

599
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 7: he didn't back down. Everybody shuld remember that he didn't

600
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 7: back down because he felt morally opposed to the policy.

601
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 6: He tried to reinstitute it.

602
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 7: You know, I've reported he said, quote unquote, I didn't

603
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 7: like the site or the feeling of the families being separated.

604
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 7: He was responding to the audio of Pro Publica Ginger

605
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 7: Thompson that got the babies crying in the border patrol facilities.

606
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 6: When the guy said, well.

607
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 7: It sounds like we have an orchestra here and then

608
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 7: the reaction to that, and that was in the late

609
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 7: late June of twenty eighteen, and he backed down, and

610
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 7: in the beginning of these immigration rates, he waffled. He

611
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 7: backed down once the image of the people being chased

612
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 7: through fields in Oxnard, California and Ventura County came out,

613
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 7: back down on the hotels, and then he flipped bopped

614
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,239
Speaker 7: because reportedly, you know, Steven Miller pushed back against him,

615
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 7: which raised this question about who's running these policies in

616
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 7: the first places, that even the president, and.

617
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: That is a real question because it does seem like

618
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: Russpot and Steven Miller are doing more and more and more.

619
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 7: This is exactly what Steven Miller wanted to do during

620
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 7: the first term. He didn't want to separate fifty five hundred.

621
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 7: He wanted to separate twenty five thousand using administrative separations.

622
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 7: And now he's putting to use all of those tools

623
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 7: in the hallways of Immigration Court, on the streets of

624
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 7: cities around the country, at freaking flower stands and fruit stands,

625
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 7: and in home depot parking lots. It is very disturbing

626
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 7: to see play out for anybody, but especially people in

627
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 7: the communities across the country, and so I think, to

628
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 7: your question, people are starting to realize that this has

629
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 7: been our hands more than anybody else's, because we're the

630
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 7: ones walking down Michigan Avenue when there's Border Patrol agents

631
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 7: in Chicago in tactical gear and masks, or in Washington,

632
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 7: DC posted up outside Union Station, or now in Memphis,

633
00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 7: or now in Portland, the National Guard. And you want

634
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 7: to know how in talking to National Guard troops who

635
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 7: were here during the deployment in LA the ones I

636
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 7: talked to, and I'm speaking for all of them, they

637
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 7: didn't want to be here. Their friends and their family

638
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 7: members are from this community. They are of the community.

639
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 7: These are people that they know who they're scaring, and

640
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 7: at some point this will tip. And that's why I

641
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 7: love that, first of all, as all, I love being

642
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 7: a part of this MSNBC family and the word that

643
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 7: Rachel does on Monday nights showing these protests out in

644
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 7: the street, and then Nicole does every day, and frankly

645
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 7: everybody does. And why I'm excited to get together with

646
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 7: everybody on the eleventh in person, because unless we're together,

647
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 7: unless we're talking about these things, unless we're sharing these things.

648
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 7: We're all sitting in our little isolated bubbles not participating.

649
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 7: And I think that participation, whatever that means to you now,

650
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 7: is the greatest form of secific service that anybody can do.

651
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: Yes, Jacob, let's talk about MSNBC Live. Tell me about

652
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: this MSNBC Live event.

653
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 6: It's going to be really cool.

654
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 7: I had big fomo that I missed it last year,

655
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 7: but I was still on the NBC side of the operation,

656
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 7: and that I came home to MSNBC is that it's

657
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 7: always been about the people, not about the politics for me,

658
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 7: and I mean that for the people in front of

659
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 7: the camera and the people behind the camera, and the

660
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 7: people in our audience. I think we have the most

661
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 7: engaged audience in all of news, not just television news.

662
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 7: But people are extraordinarily passionate about their relationship with us,

663
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 7: including you that they see on their TV every day,

664
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 7: and this opportunity to get together with people in person.

665
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 7: I remember the first time I did anything like it.

666
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 7: There was a thing called Politicon out here in LA

667
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,479
Speaker 7: and I remember saying to my boss at MSNBC at

668
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,239
Speaker 7: the time, we have got to do something like this

669
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 7: because you don't understand how meaningful it is to the

670
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 7: people that watch us and consume our journalism to be

671
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 7: able to connect with us face to face, and so

672
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 7: that's what this thing is. It's at the Hammersteen Ballroom

673
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 7: on October eleventh, is all day long. I'm going to

674
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 7: be there. My good friend Katie Turko I grew up

675
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 7: with in La and I are going to be doing

676
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 7: some stuff. Stephanie Rul and I are going to be

677
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 7: doing some stuff together. But everyone up and down the

678
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 7: lineup is going to be there, including Nicole Rachel, Chris Lawrence.

679
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 6: It's going to be really awesome.

680
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 7: And it's meaningful to me too to be able to

681
00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:59,719
Speaker 7: find a time where we can get together with thousands

682
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 7: of ours, our viewers, and be able to connect with

683
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 7: them on one on one to one and let them

684
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 7: ask us questions, let us ask them questions about what

685
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 7: they're seeing out there. So I think it should be

686
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 7: I know it's going to be really special. And my

687
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 7: Phona was slowly going away as we approachucted over eleventh.

688
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: It's cute that you and Katie ter grew up together.

689
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 6: You don't even know.

690
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 7: I mean, in my old shitty Priests, we would drive

691
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 7: around the palasads getting.

692
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 6: Ourselves into trouble.

693
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 7: It's cool to be able to work for the last

694
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 7: ten years with somebody who's been a friend of mine

695
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 7: since we were teenagers. Has been really special. This is

696
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 7: not corporate speak or any sort of nobody's telling me

697
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 7: to say this. I really, really am happy about being

698
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 7: back at MSNBC. I love the people here, and Katie

699
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 7: is first among them because we've known each other for

700
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 7: such a long time. But like, just look at the

701
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 7: work we've done together over the years here. We've been

702
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 7: able to cover the fires in our own hometown together

703
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 7: in the Palisades. Who else had that opportunity, you know,

704
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 7: in such an insane, devid personal moment to be there

705
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 7: with not only a friend but a trusted colleague. But

706
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,919
Speaker 7: we did American Swap together the doc series in twenty

707
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 7: nineteen and got to travel around. And I remember the

708
00:34:57,840 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 7: first day I started and she saw that I was

709
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 7: in the system, and I did tell her I was

710
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 7: coming to work here, and she wrote me a message

711
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 7: being like this is for real, and it has it

712
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 7: seemed like a real, It seemed like a dream. She's

713
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 7: she's a wonderful person, and I think it's be really

714
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 7: cool to talk to her in front of everybody.

715
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 6: They get to see sort of that side of us.

716
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: I have two things that I really want you to

717
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 1: talk about. First is the redistricting in Los Angeles. You

718
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: got a special election coming up. It's not in Los Angeles,

719
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 1: it's in California. You got a special election coming up.

720
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 6: State wide special election. I'm gearing up.

721
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 7: I'll be part you know, and this might be a

722
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 7: spoiler alert for your listeners and our viewers, but we're

723
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 7: going to definitely be in special coverage on that night

724
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 7: for the special election on MSNBC because think about the

725
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 7: consequences of this, literally the balance of power in the

726
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 7: House of Representatives as in Texas and in these other states,

727
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 7: all of this cheermanering is occurring. Gavin Newsom has put

728
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 7: on the ballot here with the state legislature and initiative

729
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 7: to temporarily pause our nonpartisan redistricting system that Arnld Schuarzenegger

730
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:54,760
Speaker 7: put into place when he was governor. And I think

731
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 7: that based on what the poll's stand with, the people say,

732
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 7: you know, they're supportive of this, despite the fact they

733
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 7: want to take redistricting out of the hands of the.

734
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: Politicians, which is insane.

735
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 7: Newsom's argument that I've had the fortune spent a lot

736
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 7: of time with is why would you unilaterally disarm in

737
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 7: the face of the Republicans doing this in all these

738
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 7: other states and obviously preparing to gobble up all of

739
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 7: these seats in the House. And so that's literally what's

740
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 7: on the ballot, you know, potentially five new seats in

741
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 7: the House representatives for Democrats in California. I think it's

742
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 7: going to be for an off year election. You know,

743
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 7: we don't have a midterm, we don't have a huge

744
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 7: statewide race. I think it's going to be nutst Talk.

745
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 1: To me about what it looks like in your mind,

746
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,800
Speaker 1: because also millions of dollars are being poured into it too, oh.

747
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 7: Tons, And I'm watching commercials have TV at my desk

748
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 7: right here, and I'm seeing commercials played on cable all

749
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:40,879
Speaker 7: the time about it. I think people when they first

750
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 7: hear about it sort of recoiled because there was a

751
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 7: lot of time and energy spent into taking redistricting out

752
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,720
Speaker 7: of hands of politicians and making it a non partisan

753
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 7: thing as a model for the nation to do, to

754
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 7: do away with gerrymandering nationwide. When it is explained to

755
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 7: them what this is and why the governor and the

756
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 7: legislature put this on the ballot.

757
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 6: You see the people moving in the direction of.

758
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 7: Supporting this, so I think, you know, it's October early October.

759
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 7: Now there's going to be a major blitz like we

760
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 7: see in all state wide racists in California. And as

761
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 7: you said, God knows how many tens of millions of

762
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 7: dollars spent in order to get people to focus on this,

763
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 7: because the consequences are not for California.

764
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 6: The consequences are for the nation. Obviously. It's the balance

765
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 6: of power in the House.

766
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: I mean, the consequences of this thing are fucking huge.

767
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 1: I want you to talk about this book you're writing

768
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 1: about the fires. I mean, watching you cover it was

769
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: really moving for any number of reasons. It's also like

770
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 1: this story has continued on, like the rebuilding, the environmental

771
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: repercussions from it, like it is a lot. I live

772
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,720
Speaker 1: in New York and always well and during nine to eleven,

773
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,240
Speaker 1: you know, we were like, oh shit, this this smoke,

774
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 1: the sow it. I mean, I remember people you knew,

775
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: you knew, you knew something bad.

776
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 7: Nine to eleven was my seventh day of school as

777
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 7: a freshman at nyu oh in Washington.

778
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 1: Spare Okay, you're younger than we are, Jesse, and I.

779
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 6: Hear it, but I was there too.

780
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 7: No, there was a feeling that was similar to the

781
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 7: point that you're getting to, is a point that I

782
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,240
Speaker 7: The book is called Firestorm, The Great Los Angeles Fires

783
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 7: and America's New Age of Disaster, and it comes out

784
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,320
Speaker 7: on January sixth, one day before the first anniversary of

785
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 7: the fires, and I hope people will pre order it

786
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 7: because it's not just a story about the costliest natural

787
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 7: disaster in the history of California, nor the cost of

788
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 7: wildfire theory of the costs wildfire in the history of

789
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 7: the United States of America. It's the story of what

790
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 7: happens when all kinds of circumstances find themselves at this confluence,

791
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 7: perhaps most importantly, misinformation and disinformation. And this all played

792
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 7: out during the transition from Joe Biden to Donald Trump

793
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 7: coming into office. And there is so much to unpack

794
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 7: about why the fires were as bad as they were.

795
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 6: A lot of it was uncontrollable.

796
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 7: These were hurricane force winds at a time when we

797
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 7: had had virtually no rain for many months, and so

798
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 7: it was a tinderbox waiting to go. But the politic

799
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 7: around this moment, and the book is the story of

800
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 7: me being there watching my own hometown carbonized before my eyes,

801
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 7: not understanding how to process that. How do you process

802
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 7: that in real time? You don't actually and especially when

803
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 7: you're out there talking about it on television, to try

804
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:15,720
Speaker 7: to explain it to millions of people who are watching

805
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 7: along with you. But what I have come to understand

806
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 7: about what these fires were were the basically the fire

807
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 7: of the future. There will only be more of them

808
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 7: because of many factors, climate change, of course, the degradation

809
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 7: of our infrastructure, the changes in the way we live.

810
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 7: Thousands of lithium ion batteries from electric cars were blowing up.

811
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 7: But like I said, I think most importantly throughout the fire,

812
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,839
Speaker 7: Donald Trump, who was not a sitting elected official at

813
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 7: the time, Elon Musk, who had no official governmental position

814
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 7: but certainly a giant microphone, were out there spreading an

815
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 7: extraordinary amount of incorrect information about how the fires happened,

816
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 7: what happened, and how we could recover from them. And

817
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 7: so there's a lot of original reporting in this book,

818
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 7: and that's what I want to do. I needed to

819
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 7: understand better how it could have been so bad, And

820
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,439
Speaker 7: so you read a lot about what Governor Newsom went

821
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 7: through about his interactions with President Trump, about members of

822
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 7: the Trump administration who reached out to me directly about

823
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 7: their own personal homes despite the fact that we had

824
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:13,320
Speaker 7: been adversarial as reporter source relationships. These fires didn't spare anybody,

825
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 7: but the minute they were over all of that stuff continued,

826
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 7: and it certainly hasn't helped the recovery at all out

827
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 7: of tens of thousands of structures that have been destroyed,

828
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 7: and certainly local officials are to blame as well. There's

829
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 7: less than a thousand permits that have been issued for

830
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 7: homes to be rebuilt so far, and so a lot

831
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 7: of work to do and a lot of things for

832
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 7: all of us to understand about how these huge natural disasters,

833
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 7: not just fires, are happening today, because if we don't,

834
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 7: they're just going to happen again.

835
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 1: Jacob, thank you for coming on, Molly.

836
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 6: I love talking to you. Oh and I was honored

837
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 6: that you asked, so thank you.

838
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 1: No moment, Jesse Cannon.

839
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 3: My junk fast.

840
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 5: So Gavinan K.

841
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 3: Newsome of the Governor of California, it's almost like, you know,

842
00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 3: he's doing the Warrio dash, the opposite version of mister Trump.

843
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:02,399
Speaker 1: I don't hate it.

844
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:03,359
Speaker 2: Do you hate it?

845
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 3: No, I don't hate it at all. I actually think

846
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,720
Speaker 3: the way he did this, I mean it's very interesting.

847
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,359
Speaker 3: Like when people discuss the left and right being the same,

848
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 3: Like one of the things that the stupidest analysis will

849
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 3: ease out is that it's not the same when you're

850
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 3: helping people and you're making sure people get good outcomes

851
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 3: versus people doing things out of hate and doing things

852
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 3: to hurt people. And I think what he's doing here

853
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 3: is very interesting, which is that he's saying he'll instantly

854
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 3: cut funding at California collegist that signed the Trump Packed.

855
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, Trump has this dumb packed. There's a

856
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: really good article in The Times today by the head

857
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 1: of the USC Law schools saying that this is bullshit.

858
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: It's not if you go and become a captured institution,

859
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: you are forever at the behest of Donald Trump. And

860
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 1: it's not like it's going to stop, like it'll just

861
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 1: keep going. He will keep doing that. So there is

862
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: absolutely no reason to go along with what Trump wants.

863
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:04,399
Speaker 1: This is very not surprising but bad. Yeah, I mean

864
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 1: good for Newsome. You know. By the way, we interviewed

865
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 1: Chris Murphy, and Chris Murphy said that Newsome redistricting those

866
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 1: five seeds, like he is one of the very few

867
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 1: people who was really hitting back. That's it for this

868
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:24,839
Speaker 1: episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday

869
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 1: and Saturday to hear the best minds and politics make

870
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: sense of all this chaos. If you enjoy this podcast,

871
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

872
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.