Speaker 1: Oubnatched how Wow what Giano called, which a former Fox
Speaker 1: News host is accused of going woke, the debacle in Afghanistan,
Speaker 1: is reigniting the tear threat against America, and just how
Speaker 1: real is reality TV? We got a lot to cover
Speaker 1: today in a wide ranging show. This is Outllowed with
Speaker 1: Gianno called Well. I'm beyond excited to welcome Ebony Kay
Speaker 1: Williams to Outlow with Giano called Broll. Thank you for
Speaker 1: coming on vix Us. I love you so much. I'm
Speaker 1: so so honored to have you on my last episode
Speaker 1: and really importantly here this is your first conservative podcast
Speaker 1: since you left Fox years ago. It is it is yeah, bro,
Speaker 1: this is this is my honor. You know, I remember
Speaker 1: when we were having uh, you know, preliminary conversations around
Speaker 1: you and podcasting and what's the show and what's the
Speaker 1: title and what's the cover art? So, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: to be here today after such a successful see and um,
Speaker 1: it's a manifestation of God's will And I'm honored and
Speaker 1: congratulations truly absolutely, and thank you for mentioning that as
Speaker 1: I was gonna mention you were very involved in the
Speaker 1: process of was shooting you ideas thoughts, what do you
Speaker 1: think of this picture? What do you think of this graphic?
Speaker 1: And he was like, I like this, I don't like that.
Speaker 1: So You've been a part of the process for many
Speaker 1: years and my career especially so not just with the
Speaker 1: podcast for those who are listening, but also with television
Speaker 1: as well. And if I can tell this brief story
Speaker 1: of how we met many many years ago, I saw
Speaker 1: a clip of Ebony on Twitter and my first thought was, Wow,
Speaker 1: this is a beautiful woman. Let me hear what she
Speaker 1: has to say. And when I listened, I'm like, wow,
Speaker 1: she's brilliant. Let me look for more of her YouTube's
Speaker 1: and so on. And I listened, and I listened, and
Speaker 1: I listened, and I followed you on Twitter, and then
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, your name was coming up everywhere.
Speaker 1: A woman who I've never heard of before that moment.
Speaker 1: I'm hearing about you in South Carolina, at the rooftop
Speaker 1: of the Bar and Chicago on the ninety eight floor
Speaker 1: downtown Chicago, somebody's mentioned you. I'm hearing about you at
Speaker 1: dinner during the New Year's Eve with Armstrong, Williams and others,
Speaker 1: and I said, you know what, next time I co
Speaker 1: host Armstrong series X and radio show I have to
Speaker 1: have this woman on, which I did. And then after
Speaker 1: we did our thing, which was more of a debate
Speaker 1: than anything else about the executive order pushed through by
Speaker 1: President Obama. And I know you were a big supporter
Speaker 1: of his at that time, maybe still now, but anyway,
Speaker 1: after we had that debate, you said, listen, next time
Speaker 1: you're ainoied New York, let me know. We'll get together
Speaker 1: and have a conversation, which we did, and you offered
Speaker 1: me help just on the onset, which I've not really
Speaker 1: necessarily had that experience unless I was super seeking it
Speaker 1: where people will offer it, but no one has been
Speaker 1: so freely in a position to help, who's offered to help,
Speaker 1: and has been so consistent so throughout my entire career.
Speaker 1: And I started in politics when I was fourteen, started
Speaker 1: working for the federal government when I was sixteen, part time,
Speaker 1: so on and so forth, been a lobbyist, and of
Speaker 1: course was on television before I met you, CNN and
Speaker 1: other networks. But I had so desperately that's really tried
Speaker 1: to get into Fox News, and it's very tough you
Speaker 1: and one conversation said hey, I'll introduce you to the
Speaker 1: producers that Bina the next time you're in New York,
Speaker 1: and I said, I'll be back next week Friday, which
Speaker 1: it was a Friday we were meeting. You said I
Speaker 1: won't be available. I said, well when are you available?
Speaker 1: Eednie Kay Williams. You said Tuesday. I said I'll be
Speaker 1: back here Tuesday, and I took the twenty dollar bus.
Speaker 1: But yeah, you helped me. And you've been just by
Speaker 1: my side looking at every one of my television appearances
Speaker 1: for two months straight, giving me advice, critique, um, love
Speaker 1: and support throughout. So I really honor you and I'm
Speaker 1: really thankful to have you on my very last fifty episode.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much. No, thank you for all
Speaker 1: of all of that. G And I just want to
Speaker 1: give context to some of your listeners as to how
Speaker 1: that positioning came about. Right, So, a couple of things
Speaker 1: that you left out of the storytelling. Number One, after
Speaker 1: you said you know my name is in the ethos
Speaker 1: and you're like, okay, this is, you know, probably an
Speaker 1: indicator that I should have some kind of content content
Speaker 1: engagement with this woman, you actually cold tweeted me UM
Speaker 1: to invite me to be a guest on Armstrong william Show.
Speaker 1: Of course I'd heard of Armstrong william Show, but I
Speaker 1: never had any inclination to to be on. But I
Speaker 1: thought there was something very audacious about a young man
Speaker 1: who was guest hosting to have the audacity to ask
Speaker 1: a then legal and political contributor and analyst f Fox
Speaker 1: News that he had never met Um to join him
Speaker 1: in that debate on an issue, that we on that
Speaker 1: issue were on opposite sides of UM. And I really,
Speaker 1: I really liked it. I respected it. I thought that
Speaker 1: told me already something about you, so I I complied.
Speaker 1: Then I liked very similar to me. And this will
Speaker 1: lead me to why I even fell been inclined to
Speaker 1: introduce you to anybody at Fox News. Um, was you
Speaker 1: presented fact based argument? You know you know me to
Speaker 1: know I'm not big when people into spaces of high
Speaker 1: stakes where you're talking about policy, You're talking about life
Speaker 1: or death decisions that are federal and state and local
Speaker 1: government make as it relates to the well being of
Speaker 1: everyday American citizens, and you bring a bunch of hyperbole,
Speaker 1: a bunch of emotion, a bunch of hoopers. I'm not
Speaker 1: into it. Um, I don't rock like that. And you
Speaker 1: in that debate, g you presented facts, we didn't agree
Speaker 1: on the application of the facts. That's okay, I want
Speaker 1: to say that one more time because I think that's
Speaker 1: being very lost in this whole ethos right now. Um,
Speaker 1: as it relates to politics and debate and conversation. We
Speaker 1: didn't agree on the application of the facts, but we
Speaker 1: agreed on the facts and from there we could have
Speaker 1: an intellectualized, practical, and productive conversation as it relates to
Speaker 1: how this stuff can help people. Boom cool. So afterwards
Speaker 1: you did follow up and you were like, yeah, let's
Speaker 1: let me know when you can can link. Fine. I
Speaker 1: hear that thirty times a day, every day. Fine. Um,
Speaker 1: you followed up, and I'm telling these details you to
Speaker 1: to let people know that it's not just some magic
Speaker 1: fairy godmother or godfather that's going to come out the
Speaker 1: universe and and and put you in position to succeed.
Speaker 1: It doesn't work that way. What can happen you hear
Speaker 1: this often, Uh, successes is where opportunity meets preparation. What's
Speaker 1: important here is that you were prepared to be put
Speaker 1: in position. So when we let's go to that very
Speaker 1: first meeting, UM, I said let me see some of
Speaker 1: your your real and first of all, you had a
Speaker 1: real to show me. Let's start there. No, I'm serious
Speaker 1: because a lot of people they reach out to you,
Speaker 1: they reach out to me, they reach out to our colleagues,
Speaker 1: and they want to be on prime time, Fox News, CNN,
Speaker 1: what have you. And when you asked them for basic
Speaker 1: examples of their work, what would you do if you
Speaker 1: had an eight o'clock time five God came down himself
Speaker 1: right now and say, you've got the eight o'clock time
Speaker 1: slot all week? What does your content look like? You
Speaker 1: can't answer that, then what do you expect to people?
Speaker 1: So anyways, ask you for a real? You gave me
Speaker 1: a real. I watched several clips and I said immediately,
Speaker 1: just by watching that real Giano, a couple of things
Speaker 1: stood out to me. Number one, you knew how to
Speaker 1: present on camera, okay, like just aesthetically and that's important
Speaker 1: in this business. One thing Roger Els taught me, uh,
Speaker 1: this is optics. This is television. Okay, this is a
Speaker 1: visual business. Um. Regardless of you know, things that they
Speaker 1: came out that were of course very problematic, the basic
Speaker 1: tentacles of television remain. This is a visual business and
Speaker 1: your ability to present well aesthetically optically, it's paramount. You
Speaker 1: knew how to look good on television. Great, don't have
Speaker 1: to teach you that. Number two again, you make fact based,
Speaker 1: coherent arguments too deep to agree you disagree, that's not
Speaker 1: the point. You know how to sit in front of
Speaker 1: someone else of opposite position and make an argument. Great.
Speaker 1: The rest of the stuff can be tweaked. Cool. So
Speaker 1: it was enough for me to say this is a
Speaker 1: young man. Also, you talked about how desperately hard you'd
Speaker 1: work to be on Fox News. It's not a secret. Um.
Speaker 1: None of the networks in my opinion, Um, when I
Speaker 1: say networks, I'm talking about, of course the cable news networks,
Speaker 1: Fox News, MSNBC, seen, and I don't think any of
Speaker 1: them have an adequate number of representation of diverse voices.
Speaker 1: And when I say diversity voices, I'm not just talking
Speaker 1: about skin color, although that's important. I'm also talking about
Speaker 1: ideological diversity. I'm talking about regional diversity. Where in this country, Um,
Speaker 1: you come from, where your perspective is informed. You know, Gee,
Speaker 1: I'm a daughter from the South. That is not a perspective.
Speaker 1: You see a lot on these national news outlets. Not
Speaker 1: because people from the South are on there, we don't
Speaker 1: necessarily talk about it. I think it's of the utmost important. Um.
Speaker 1: So you were bringing a perspective, you know, born and
Speaker 1: bred southside Chicago, coming from you know, a background that
Speaker 1: I related to, extremely humble beginnings, entrepreneurship instilled upon you
Speaker 1: by your grandfather. Like just stuff that just vibed with me.
Speaker 1: You know, we we talked a lot about our mothers
Speaker 1: and you know, just different things that made us have
Speaker 1: a unique perspective on on themes like hard work, opportunity,
Speaker 1: what success looks like, UM, resilience, uh, by way of
Speaker 1: the American dream. So all of that was really really
Speaker 1: dope to me. Many people ask you about your journey
Speaker 1: with God, which I think is the really the center
Speaker 1: place of your life. A lot of your decisions come
Speaker 1: from that place, and I love for you to kind
Speaker 1: of share with us, you know, what has that really
Speaker 1: been like in your journey and television? Uh and law?
Speaker 1: You know, you know, it's a it's an important question
Speaker 1: because while people don't ask me about the role God
Speaker 1: and my faith plays in my day to day and
Speaker 1: in particularly my work, it is a thing that is
Speaker 1: you know, because you you know, consume a lot of
Speaker 1: my continent interviews. I intentionally try to deliver those realities
Speaker 1: because I think it's important that people know. This is
Speaker 1: not me. Really simply put Giano, UM, the work that
Speaker 1: I do, the blessings that I've been able to receive,
Speaker 1: the impact um to the extent I have been able
Speaker 1: to make one, It's not my doing. I know that. UM.
Speaker 1: I've been very clear from a very early age that
Speaker 1: all is happening here is that I am a vessel.
Speaker 1: That's it. I am a vessel of God's will. I
Speaker 1: believe in spiritual gifts. I think every single person born
Speaker 1: get some or some spiritual gifts. And I think what
Speaker 1: is so incredibly rewarding g and and we've had these
Speaker 1: conversations in depth for years, is when you are able
Speaker 1: to identify with some level of precision what are your
Speaker 1: spiritual gifts? Right, and then once you know what those
Speaker 1: spiritual gifts are, then to me and there's actually um.
Speaker 1: And I'm not a big Bible thumper, as you know,
Speaker 1: but my my belief in my faith is of the
Speaker 1: utmost important. But I do believe their scripture that talks
Speaker 1: about you know, God gives you spiritual gifts. That's him
Speaker 1: doing his his part. Your part is to then figure
Speaker 1: out how to pour those spiritual gifts that he gives
Speaker 1: you back into the world. Everything that I do and
Speaker 1: a lot of people look at the moves I make
Speaker 1: in the business, UM and they don't understand them. So,
Speaker 1: whether it's going to Fox News in the first place,
Speaker 1: whether it's making a decision after several years UM of
Speaker 1: being successful on the network to then pivoting UH to
Speaker 1: leave the network to uncertain future, then it was taking
Speaker 1: a role at Revolt, which is a completely urban black
Speaker 1: centric outlet owned of course by Sean pdd Combs, UH
Speaker 1: hosting a real hip hop talk show UM with naturally
Speaker 1: recognized internationally Grammy nominated actors rappers rather Joe Button and
Speaker 1: Remy Man and Brandon Jenks people that didn't make sense
Speaker 1: to people, No real house pis of New York like
Speaker 1: what you're doing it? But what you knew the whole
Speaker 1: time because we were discussing it. I was letting God
Speaker 1: order my steps, right, This is God putting me in
Speaker 1: front of particular audience so that my particular spiritual gifts
Speaker 1: could be manifested, could be received from those who otherwise
Speaker 1: might not be privy to those elements, those energies, those
Speaker 1: particular things. So I just can't say enough again, I guess,
Speaker 1: simply put, it's just I'm not making these decisions, Giano,
Speaker 1: I'm not making these decisions. I'm not making these moves.
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not in front of the wheel. You know,
Speaker 1: one of the greatest spiritual challenges I've had my entire
Speaker 1: adult life has been the spiritual challenge and requirement really
Speaker 1: of surrender. Because it's like, if I'm trying to drive
Speaker 1: the bus and guys trying to drive the bus, we're
Speaker 1: not gonna get to where we're going, right, So I
Speaker 1: had to humble myself, humble my ego, humble my so
Speaker 1: called intelligence to surrender. You know, you you mentioned something
Speaker 1: to me here, and it reminds me of something that
Speaker 1: Dr Bill wants and my pastor back home says a
Speaker 1: lot we've been to this church. He says, it's not me,
Speaker 1: is God in me. He's doing the work. So that
Speaker 1: really I think adjusted my thinking as you said that.
Speaker 1: But you also said a couple of other things that
Speaker 1: stuck out to me, one being you're used to being
Speaker 1: the person that drives. We'll just call it a private jet,
Speaker 1: a fancy one. And when you look to make a decision,
Speaker 1: it's like being on a football field. You're already looking
Speaker 1: at the other end and we know how many well,
Speaker 1: I don't know how many yards it is. You do.
Speaker 1: You're the sports sports person, but you're looking way ahead.
Speaker 1: And how hard is it for you to really let
Speaker 1: go and just let God guide you? I think that
Speaker 1: got to be a very difficult, very difficult decision for you,
Speaker 1: because you're always in the front seat of your life,
Speaker 1: your career, and all of your personal life, all of
Speaker 1: those things. You're really flying the plane. So how do
Speaker 1: you how do you adjust to that? It's been my
Speaker 1: age and life experience, I guess most of than the
Speaker 1: number of my age. It was hard for me three
Speaker 1: years ago, it was hard for me five years ago.
Speaker 1: It's not hard for me now because I just trust
Speaker 1: him so implicit. How could I not, yes, ma'am, because
Speaker 1: you're not. And that's not easy to say to your question.
Speaker 1: So I don't want to oversimplify your question, because it's real.
Speaker 1: This used to be a serious spiritual struggle for me
Speaker 1: because I felt in my heart I wanted to be
Speaker 1: obedient and follow God's calling. But I'm like, God, what
Speaker 1: you're doing? You know, like that don't look like move Um.
Speaker 1: But he's been so right, he's been so consistent, he's
Speaker 1: been so forward thinking, and things I never thought about,
Speaker 1: never thought about being a reality TV And all the
Speaker 1: years you've ever known me up and until this point,
Speaker 1: had you ever heard me talk about no reality never
Speaker 1: not pitching one, not starting one, not going to be
Speaker 1: on an existing one. That was not my plan. There
Speaker 1: are other things I've wanted to do in the business. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, write the book, do this, do that, maybe
Speaker 1: host the game show, a judge show. Dad, you never
Speaker 1: heard me talk about no reality show. So when that
Speaker 1: opportunity so quote quote randomly popped up, I knew it
Speaker 1: couldn't be anything but God, and so it was easy
Speaker 1: to trust it. And then when in thirteen years they've
Speaker 1: never had a black woman, not one, And of all
Speaker 1: of the thousands, tens of thousands of incredible, beautiful, brilliant,
Speaker 1: super wealthy black women they could have picked, they picked me.
Speaker 1: Come on, that wasn't them picking me, That was God
Speaker 1: picking mee am I to say no to God? So
Speaker 1: that is such a fresh take and perspective. I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people, especially those who have always viewed
Speaker 1: their careers, simply put me in their hands. Not to
Speaker 1: say that you didn't work hard, that you weren't exceptional
Speaker 1: in so many different ways, not to say any of
Speaker 1: those things aren't the case, but there's a lot of
Speaker 1: exceptional people out there that don't know it, or there's
Speaker 1: a lot of exceptional people out here who here who
Speaker 1: think they can do everything just on their own without God.
Speaker 1: And you're not one of those people. I know, you're
Speaker 1: one of the most brilliant people that I know, and
Speaker 1: I think you're one of the most brilliant people that
Speaker 1: a lot of people know. So you know, it's not
Speaker 1: a unique experience for me. But let's let's let's go
Speaker 1: to just the foundation of you, your mom right before
Speaker 1: getting into the big issues of the day of the
Speaker 1: show and all of that which we're gonna get into.
Speaker 1: And I thank you for spending the time you were
Speaker 1: raised by a single mother who wasn't formally educated but
Speaker 1: was still a small business owner. Can you tell us
Speaker 1: what it was like growing up with Mama Gloria, who
Speaker 1: who I love in the door personally, but she's she's
Speaker 1: a tough person to grow up. She's very tough. She
Speaker 1: believes in discipline, she believes in hard work. Um, that discipline,
Speaker 1: some kind sometimes came at brute force. Um. You can
Speaker 1: debate the merits of that in a modern society, but
Speaker 1: I can tell you it was. It was what was
Speaker 1: done at the time she you know, and one of
Speaker 1: the things she did, you know, it's old school stuff,
Speaker 1: but you know, she and my aunt's may they rest
Speaker 1: in peace. They literally taught me how to pray like
Speaker 1: that was a part of my upbringing, was getting on
Speaker 1: my knees at night and saying the Lord's prayer. And
Speaker 1: while as a kid, you don't really not necessarily know
Speaker 1: the significance of that, or at least I didn't. Um,
Speaker 1: it was once you start living life, once you started
Speaker 1: going through some things, whether it's in school or at
Speaker 1: summer jobs or work like that, that's when my mom's
Speaker 1: tuteledgg really started showing up for me because she, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe it was partly because I was raised with a
Speaker 1: single mom. She was very clear on my heavenly father.
Speaker 1: You know, that's a term I don't know that we
Speaker 1: spend a lot of time on in a modern society.
Speaker 1: But there's such thing as a heavenly father who will
Speaker 1: do two things. Always provide and protect. Oh I like that.
Speaker 1: I like that provide and protect yea. So it's one
Speaker 1: of those things. And then there's just certain things, like
Speaker 1: some things that come top of mind. If you take
Speaker 1: one step, God will take too. I believe that with
Speaker 1: my spirit Giano Caldwell. I see it evidence in every
Speaker 1: aspect of my life. I'll give you this. But I
Speaker 1: was desperately trying to get on any platform. Right, So
Speaker 1: this is back eleven. I'm transitioning from the courtroom as
Speaker 1: a practicing lawyer to trying to be a national international broadcaster.
Speaker 1: Nobody would put me on a segment like it was
Speaker 1: a struggle to get on hoof Post Live back when
Speaker 1: that was a thing, And so Mom said, I would
Speaker 1: call or be frustrated like I'm so talented, I'm so good,
Speaker 1: I'm so smart. I got this lottery nobody's doing. She said,
Speaker 1: have you taken your step? Because until you take your step,
Speaker 1: God can't move. I said, all right. So then my
Speaker 1: mandate g was every single day at least in outreach points.
Speaker 1: So whether that's eve, cold emailing producers, cold calling networks,
Speaker 1: sending out cover letters, resumes, clips, tapes that every day
Speaker 1: for I'm talking about nine ten months, and it would
Speaker 1: mostly go unanswered. But I felt like if I don't
Speaker 1: do my steps, he can't move. I believe that now,
Speaker 1: even now where God has blessed me to be you
Speaker 1: know me, every day, I'm hitting up so and so,
Speaker 1: so and so. I would be great for this role.
Speaker 1: I would love this job. And I'm talking about some
Speaker 1: high level power playing executives, because who am I to
Speaker 1: sit back with arrogance and complacent energy and think that
Speaker 1: things are old to me? I just I just don't
Speaker 1: believe it. And you're right. All of that goes back
Speaker 1: to my mother, who I saw bust her ask pardon
Speaker 1: my French, to make sure that she and her child
Speaker 1: had everything we needed and most everything we wanted. So,
Speaker 1: you know, when she came uh to to get me
Speaker 1: a twenty three years old, and we you know ran,
Speaker 1: you know, started setting up household with just me and her.
Speaker 1: This is a woman who worked three jobs at one time.
Speaker 1: This is a woman who put herself the beauty school
Speaker 1: while driving the bus for public schools at five o'clock
Speaker 1: in the morning, and while running packages for ups at night,
Speaker 1: you know. So that's the stock from which I come from.
Speaker 1: So I don't know anything but hard work, and I
Speaker 1: only know God to reward hard work. Amen, and you,
Speaker 1: in some ways, while your mom was riding driving that
Speaker 1: bus at five am, you were kind of getting up
Speaker 1: and pulling your own sereal you were reading and you
Speaker 1: were what six years old of the time. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: was kind of being a hot mess too. I don't
Speaker 1: know if you remember toaster strudles. Yeah, five strudals pastries
Speaker 1: and then you get five packs of icing to go
Speaker 1: with each strudal. Well, I remember him on TV. We
Speaker 1: weren't wealthy enough to have them, so I can only
Speaker 1: take your work. You're so silly. Well, I remember when
Speaker 1: we were wealthy enough to get the actual toaster strudles, um,
Speaker 1: not the off bringing, which we did that too, But
Speaker 1: you're supposed to get one pack of busting for each strudle.
Speaker 1: And I was such a little badass kid. This was
Speaker 1: like the worst thing I would do. I would eat
Speaker 1: all five icing packs at one time and then be
Speaker 1: really sad the rest of the week when I would
Speaker 1: have a dry as pastry. But that was the kind
Speaker 1: of stuff you do when your mom leaves and five
Speaker 1: of the morning, just you making yourself breakfast, like you said, reading,
Speaker 1: trying to finish homework, and then getting on a school
Speaker 1: bus as a latch key kid. Yeah. Absolutely, I got
Speaker 1: Ebony K. Williams with me Real Housewives of New York
Speaker 1: as well as a former host on Fox News Channel.
Speaker 1: I'm sure y'all enjoying the conversation. Stick with us. We'll
Speaker 1: be back right after a quick break. How was the
Speaker 1: impact of, you know, I know, single mom. How was
Speaker 1: the impact of being raised without a father, not knowing
Speaker 1: who your dad was doing. You know, you're a young woman.
Speaker 1: You were doing pageants and of course I'm sure a
Speaker 1: lot of young men as you were growing up, we're
Speaker 1: trying to get your attention. Your really a beautiful woman.
Speaker 1: How was that experience of not necessarily having a dad
Speaker 1: to talk to about the decisions that you were gonna make,
Speaker 1: or having that figure in there to tell you outside
Speaker 1: of your mom, how beautiful you are, how talented you are,
Speaker 1: and all of those things that some people received from
Speaker 1: their father figures as young women. Absolutely, and listen, my
Speaker 1: mom did did an incredible job to to make sure
Speaker 1: that she was providing and protecting as best she could.
Speaker 1: But you know, even today, you know it's hard for
Speaker 1: her to because she sulf deeply loves her daughter. She
Speaker 1: can't father. It's an impossibility for a woman, any woman,
Speaker 1: to father. And I think that's recent through therapy and
Speaker 1: through prayer and through you know, my work at the
Speaker 1: Hoffman Institute, Gianno that I've just recently when I said
Speaker 1: recent time about the last two or three years, being
Speaker 1: able to sit with the pain and the reality that
Speaker 1: not having that male figure in my life to tell
Speaker 1: me those things. You are beautiful, you are high valued,
Speaker 1: you are special, You deserve the very best. Man this
Speaker 1: puts himself in front of you must come to this level, um,
Speaker 1: Otherwise he's not deserving. When you don't have a man
Speaker 1: to tell you that and affirm that, you're operating on
Speaker 1: un an imagination really so literally. You know, when I
Speaker 1: showed up him, you know, my first marriage, I had
Speaker 1: no idea what I was doing because I had not
Speaker 1: seen it, you know. And that's not an excuse, that's
Speaker 1: just the reality. UM. As I now prepare for my
Speaker 1: second and final marriage, God Willie, UM, I think a
Speaker 1: lot about that, g I think a lot about you
Speaker 1: know what my expectations of my not only husband, but
Speaker 1: I'm choosing the father of my child, you know, and
Speaker 1: what does that look like? What elements need to be there?
Speaker 1: And it is a journey, and it's something that I
Speaker 1: have to talk to you about. My other men in
Speaker 1: that are in my life. And I don't do a
Speaker 1: whole lot of male platonic friends because you know, it's
Speaker 1: just not the vibes. A lot of people we operate
Speaker 1: with a agendas, um. But but but the ones, the
Speaker 1: handful of men that I love and trust deeply like
Speaker 1: that I have to defer to you. You know, what
Speaker 1: does that look like? What does that energy feel like?
Speaker 1: Because I didn't grow up with it, gen I didn't
Speaker 1: and so you know, I have to mourn the loss
Speaker 1: that I did not have that growing up. I am now,
Speaker 1: like I said, almost thirty eight years old. I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna get it back. I have to mourn the loss
Speaker 1: of that and then move forward to say, now I
Speaker 1: do know, as you saw on the episode of Rony
Speaker 1: this week, I do know definitively who my father is.
Speaker 1: I cannot tell you how much how much just gratitude
Speaker 1: I have for that whatever the relationship become. But doesn't
Speaker 1: become put opinion that I know whose I am, I
Speaker 1: know the paternal identity from which I come from. For
Speaker 1: those of you who have always grown up knowing that,
Speaker 1: just just take a moment to say thank you God,
Speaker 1: because that is an invaluable piece of your identity that,
Speaker 1: whether you know it or not, informs the level of
Speaker 1: validity in which you will walk through the world, the
Speaker 1: level of legitimacy and which you walk through the world.
Speaker 1: And frankly, those were things I did struggle with deeply,
Speaker 1: um and probably to some degree still do if I'm
Speaker 1: being vulnerable, because not knowing that aspect of who I
Speaker 1: am and where I come from, it's a very hard
Speaker 1: thing for a young girl. And I can only imagine
Speaker 1: and I've seen the impact that it has had on
Speaker 1: many young women, especially growing up in the inner city,
Speaker 1: and it usually isn't isn't a great outcome and in
Speaker 1: a number of cases, and you're extraordinarily blessed to have
Speaker 1: grown up without your father. Obviously a mom who was
Speaker 1: there and who worked our butt off to put you
Speaker 1: through pageants, school, et cetera, and pushed for you to
Speaker 1: be in these gifted classes because you knew that you
Speaker 1: were you were gifted to. That's another part of the journey.
Speaker 1: But as you mentioned last week, I believe it was
Speaker 1: the episode of Ronie Play where it is affirmed that
Speaker 1: there at least is an idea of one of three
Speaker 1: men were to be your father. And of course you know,
Speaker 1: I don't want to give away anything because this season
Speaker 1: is still ongoing, but did it confirm who it is? Uh?
Speaker 1: Through d n A, I was able to reach out
Speaker 1: to the man that my geneticist predicted she was at
Speaker 1: That woman is phenomenal. Um, she's absolutely right. Gee, if
Speaker 1: you're cool with it, I would love to link her
Speaker 1: contact information in your episode notes, UM for anybody listening
Speaker 1: yeah to this and wants to help. Linda what's her name?
Speaker 1: Linda is her name, and she is Linda Linda Doyle
Speaker 1: and she is fantastic. Um. She she's just blessed again.
Speaker 1: She's called I think that's the word we need to
Speaker 1: use and normalize. Some people are called to do certain
Speaker 1: things in this life. Some people are called to the pulpit,
Speaker 1: some people are called to art. Linda is called to
Speaker 1: connect family. So how has that that process been? You
Speaker 1: spoken with him? Have you met him? Are y'all in
Speaker 1: contact or what does that look like? We have my
Speaker 1: father and I have spoken on the phone and listen,
Speaker 1: it's without giving too much away, it has not been
Speaker 1: an easy process. I can't imagine what it's like to
Speaker 1: get a phone call after literally almost forty years and
Speaker 1: say hello, I am your daughter. And by the way,
Speaker 1: i'm your daughter, and I have a pretty significant public profile,
Speaker 1: and I think all of that is a part of it.
Speaker 1: So I believe Giano my father's processing. Um. I am
Speaker 1: prayerful that that processing continues to the point where we
Speaker 1: are able to start a really special friendship. You know again,
Speaker 1: I don't have an expectation that this man can go
Speaker 1: back in a time capsule and reraise me that that
Speaker 1: for me has come and that has gone, and I
Speaker 1: have to grieve the loss of that. I will never
Speaker 1: be that little girl running into Daddy's arms. It's not
Speaker 1: gonna happen. So I have to grieve the loss of
Speaker 1: that and instead make a new story, a new expectation
Speaker 1: of beauty that says that this this man, who, by
Speaker 1: all accounts I hear, is a lovely man. He's been
Speaker 1: a lovely father to my sister, a lovely grandfather to
Speaker 1: my nieces and nephews. Um, and a lovely husband to
Speaker 1: his wife. UM. So this is a man of excellence
Speaker 1: and hope that I can have a relationship with him
Speaker 1: in that capacity. Now you mentioned something I think uh
Speaker 1: is of interest here to people who are listening. If
Speaker 1: I and was in that situation, which obviously I've never been.
Speaker 1: I don't have any children, but if I found out
Speaker 1: my daughter was Ebney Kay Williams, and I learned more
Speaker 1: about her, I would I would want to, Hey, I
Speaker 1: want to meet you as soon as possible. I want
Speaker 1: to talk to you every day. I want to whatever
Speaker 1: part of your life you want to share with me.
Speaker 1: I would like to spend time getting to know and
Speaker 1: and and certainly being there for you because of all
Speaker 1: this lost time, almost almost forty years. I'm not sure
Speaker 1: if that's necessarily has happened. UM, and you know you
Speaker 1: correct me if if if I'm wrong, because you said
Speaker 1: you've spoken with him on the phone, et cetera, how
Speaker 1: does that make you feel? Um? That that makes me sad?
Speaker 1: Of course I would love to talk to this man
Speaker 1: more equally, but again I don't know his process. I'll
Speaker 1: tell you what I don't do, is I don't take
Speaker 1: it personally, right. I know enough to know I've had
Speaker 1: enough prayer and therapy to know this is not a
Speaker 1: rejection of me personally. He doesn't know me to reject me, right,
Speaker 1: So instead this is a reflection of his I don't know,
Speaker 1: potential limitations, maybe um an example of where where of
Speaker 1: his pacing and listen who. The thing I prayed for
Speaker 1: the most is to know who is he? What does
Speaker 1: he look like, what does he sound like? What is
Speaker 1: his name? I have that, and if I don't get
Speaker 1: more than that, I can honestly tell you I'm still
Speaker 1: grateful and I'm very A question I've been getting to Gus, like,
Speaker 1: do I regret going on the journey seeing you know
Speaker 1: how it's it's not that scenario of we're talking every day,
Speaker 1: we're hanging out every day. No, I don't regret it
Speaker 1: for one second. It really was a painful thing to
Speaker 1: to on every application. I want people to really think
Speaker 1: about this in their own gratitude. Every application I've ever
Speaker 1: filled out my entire life, from the s A T
Speaker 1: S to the bar exam to my first marriage license
Speaker 1: to every application for the department I've ever filled out,
Speaker 1: to all of it passport when it says mother Glory
Speaker 1: J Williams Boom got it father for thirty eight years
Speaker 1: almost it's been in a in a For the first
Speaker 1: time in my life, I can put a name there.
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how powerful that is for me.
Speaker 1: And I think for those who may take those moments
Speaker 1: for granted, you realize the gravitas that it's really illustrated
Speaker 1: in this moment by saying, listen, I didn't filled out
Speaker 1: a number of applications. It says hey dad, mom, and
Speaker 1: I couldn't put in my my dad's name. I think
Speaker 1: that's I think that's something for a folks who may
Speaker 1: have a two parent home and grew up in and
Speaker 1: they're like, wow, I didn't even think about it to
Speaker 1: that magnitude. So I mean, we certainly appreciate you sharing that,
Speaker 1: and I I want to pick up this conversation. Um
Speaker 1: after the break. We need to take a quick break,
Speaker 1: but when we come back, I'm gonna ask Ebony about
Speaker 1: her time at Fox in a transition to reality TV.
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a second. Welcome Back to Alloy
Speaker 1: with Giano Caldwell. I got Ebony Kay Williams on the
Speaker 1: podcast and I couldn't be more excited to have someone
Speaker 1: who's more like a sister to me than just about anyone.
Speaker 1: The only thing that separates us is blood, and I've
Speaker 1: not even checked our blood type shed. So maybe that's
Speaker 1: even we gotta check that we may we may be
Speaker 1: closer than I even think ebony. But I wanted to
Speaker 1: ask you. You've described your time in Fox News as challenging,
Speaker 1: and you said you went there to disrupt things, not
Speaker 1: to be comfortable. Could you elaborate on that? Sure? You know,
Speaker 1: when I go back to when I first started appearing
Speaker 1: on Fox, so this was it was I never forget
Speaker 1: my very first hit, as we call it in the
Speaker 1: Business segment. It was on the O'Reilly Factor. It was live,
Speaker 1: it was with Bill and a reverend actually, and it
Speaker 1: was to to debate analyze the outcome of the George's
Speaker 1: Immerman trial. And I had actually never even seen The
Speaker 1: Orilly Factor before. But you know, I'm not under a rock.
Speaker 1: I know the gravitas of O'Reilly show and the impact
Speaker 1: on culture, so what you know, it was really legal analysis.
Speaker 1: I was able to offer as a skilled trial attorney
Speaker 1: and talk about the case and the and the cultural
Speaker 1: impact which was really to me. Why I think O'Reilly
Speaker 1: was such a huge star at the network and his
Speaker 1: show was number one for twenty years, it was because
Speaker 1: people like law, people like policy, but people want to
Speaker 1: talk about how it impacts the culture American country. So anyways, Um,
Speaker 1: after that hit, you know, it was met with mixed
Speaker 1: review in terms of people agreed, people didn't agree. But
Speaker 1: what almost universally I got, Giana was people had never
Speaker 1: really seen anything like me before. Are meaning my age demographic,
Speaker 1: meaning a black woman who was not a particularly partisan person.
Speaker 1: I've always been loud, proud, registered political independent for over
Speaker 1: eighteen years. Somebody who has a background in uh in
Speaker 1: law and unafraid to use it. Somebody who has worked
Speaker 1: in political spaces in Louisiana while I was coming up
Speaker 1: through law school. Somebody from the South, from the American South,
Speaker 1: who grew up with those roots and is proud of them.
Speaker 1: So I just reflected and represented something very um unique
Speaker 1: at the network, And I knew if I was gonna
Speaker 1: sit in that space and not assimilate to everything else
Speaker 1: that the network was used to, that by way of
Speaker 1: existence would be disruptive. So that's what I mean when
Speaker 1: I say I went there to disrupt. That is not
Speaker 1: in any negative connotation, That is not in any um
Speaker 1: malicious intent. It is simply to say by showing up
Speaker 1: as something so altogether different then what was currently on
Speaker 1: the network in an on air capacity, by nature, that
Speaker 1: is disruptive. You know, it's so interesting to me as
Speaker 1: you talk about Fox News. Everything what you're saying is true.
Speaker 1: You were a star at the network. Susan Scott, the
Speaker 1: CEO promoted you to co hosting the show, which going
Speaker 1: from a contributor to to to co host, especially that quickly,
Speaker 1: that quickly is the key word, shows how much that
Speaker 1: they loved and appreciated your commentary. Even though it wasn't
Speaker 1: a super conservative sland. You weren't going in as a Republican.
Speaker 1: You weren't called Roll, you weren't Giano Caldwell any of
Speaker 1: those things. And I'm not some super conservative, uh car
Speaker 1: Roll of type figure, but I am a conservative, more
Speaker 1: moderate in my in my point of view. But you
Speaker 1: have legitimate Republican credentials, yes, absolutely absolutely, But those are
Speaker 1: the things that you weren't And I think people appreciated
Speaker 1: that because I remember seeing the social media they will say,
Speaker 1: I don't agree with you, but I love the way
Speaker 1: you stayed at your point. I didn't agree with you
Speaker 1: on this or that, but I appreciate what you bring
Speaker 1: to the network. You made me think about this differently.
Speaker 1: I'm glad that my daughter can look at the TV
Speaker 1: and see you on it. Like I've seen the emails,
Speaker 1: I've seen the tweets. I've seen all of that over
Speaker 1: over the years, and it really bothers me, Ebony that
Speaker 1: I've seen in places like the Daily Mail, Uh, these
Speaker 1: hit pieces that they've done on you with regards to
Speaker 1: your time if Fox News and honestly have said, it's
Speaker 1: just a a deluge of lies, just negative headlines, lies
Speaker 1: that we're We've seen from the Daily Mail, Uh, people
Speaker 1: saying that, hey, you know, she was too much of
Speaker 1: a talent, you were you expected too much or mean
Speaker 1: the staff and all this kind of trash. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: wait a second. Ebony and I worked the Fox the
Speaker 1: same time, and people knew that Ebony brought me in.
Speaker 1: And as a matter of fact, when I had my
Speaker 1: meetings with the executives to be brought in from a
Speaker 1: contractual basis, it made me look good that I was
Speaker 1: brought in by Ebony. Kay Williams, and they had nothing
Speaker 1: but great things to say about you. We're switching gears
Speaker 1: in terms of the Fox up. It's just really interesting
Speaker 1: how people are reflecting on your time at Fox now
Speaker 1: and bringing up a lot of false narratives, things that
Speaker 1: are just completely and totally untrue. How does that make
Speaker 1: you feel? You know, this is not my wheelhouse, meaning
Speaker 1: I'm new to this reality TV space. I am used
Speaker 1: to being a journalist. I'm used to being a host
Speaker 1: of content. I'm used to being a lawyer. So in
Speaker 1: those spaces I've always dealt in fact um. What is
Speaker 1: new to me is to be in tabloids. Okay, so
Speaker 1: now we've got to have a conversation about what is
Speaker 1: legitimate press um, you know, which I'm very accustomed to,
Speaker 1: have given hundreds of interviews throughout my career, maybe even thousands, um,
Speaker 1: in a variety of places. What I'm not used to
Speaker 1: is being the source of tabloid fodder and those like
Speaker 1: the Daily Mail and all that ship that is a tabloid.
Speaker 1: And at first I was really taken aback, like, oh
Speaker 1: my god. And then you look and see like to
Speaker 1: your who would say such a bow faced lie? And
Speaker 1: then you talk to the journalists and they said, oh,
Speaker 1: it's it's a sort an named source. Okay, come on now,
Speaker 1: come on now, So you'd rather go with an unnamed
Speaker 1: source than the source I provided to you, um, which
Speaker 1: was actually reported by Variety on actual legitimate publication just
Speaker 1: recently this week where my then supervisor, Mr. David Clark,
Speaker 1: who was then vice president and executive producer of all
Speaker 1: of weekend news at Fox News at the time. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, gave a literal glowing report at every turn.
Speaker 1: You know, he volunteerily unsolicited sent me an email which
Speaker 1: was published in a Variety, essentially saying I'm paraphrasing, Uh,
Speaker 1: you were spectacular. Um, not only on air performance, everyone
Speaker 1: in the d C bureau enjoyed thoroughly working with you,
Speaker 1: to that point of how I am with the staff
Speaker 1: and crew. You know, I I knew everybody by name,
Speaker 1: from receptionists to cameraman to the gentleman. Normally it was
Speaker 1: gentleman that that that miked us as we sit down
Speaker 1: to do our hits and and commentary or anchor a newscast.
Speaker 1: So just the height of of you know, slander, that's
Speaker 1: all it was. G It was just slander. And again
Speaker 1: you know Megan McCain, who you know that we both
Speaker 1: worked with at Fox, and I worked with very closely,
Speaker 1: especially during my time guest hosting Are Outnumbered, which was
Speaker 1: you know, the talk show that she hosted, co hosted,
Speaker 1: and Megan on the view as of like a month ago,
Speaker 1: was like listen, I don't know what people are there
Speaker 1: talking about with ebany being disruptive in any space in
Speaker 1: terms of not disruptive being a problem. I have a
Speaker 1: quote here and I have David Clark's as well, if
Speaker 1: I may just read it for the audience, just great
Speaker 1: platitudes here. I can I thank you enough. And this
Speaker 1: is David Clark emailing you. I can. And I remember
Speaker 1: this email because you sent it to me when you
Speaker 1: got it. I remember it. I have it in my box.
Speaker 1: I remember when you sent it to me, uh years ago.
Speaker 1: He says, I cannot thank you enough for making the
Speaker 1: trick to d C. These passed many weekends to co Anchor,
Speaker 1: which is America's newsroom headquarters. From there, you did a
Speaker 1: superb job and the DC staff has repeatedly expressed it
Speaker 1: very positive feelings about your performance and their dealings with you.
Speaker 1: Let's catch up when you're back in New York. And
Speaker 1: then from Megan McCain on the View, of course, she
Speaker 1: stated this live on air. She said, I actually know Ebony.
Speaker 1: We used to work together Fox News. She's actually among
Speaker 1: being the first black New York housewive. She was also
Speaker 1: the first black woman to host a show in prime
Speaker 1: time and news. The Ebony I know is an extremely intelligent,
Speaker 1: hard working I mean, she was like a very good
Speaker 1: sparring partner on my old show Out Number, and I
Speaker 1: always enjoyed being with her on air. I'm happy she's
Speaker 1: bringing diversity and shining a light towards a lot of
Speaker 1: the unconscious bias and just bias and racism and unconscious
Speaker 1: racism in particular on reality television. This is a woman
Speaker 1: who could probably run for office if she wanted to.
Speaker 1: So I'm happy to see her on reality television. I
Speaker 1: hope she takes that platform and continues on because she
Speaker 1: really is a really really always been an interesting voice.
Speaker 1: Is nice to see a highly intellectual woman on reality television,
Speaker 1: not that there hasn't been any, but well, I just
Speaker 1: know it personally. So those are words from Megan McCain
Speaker 1: um that she gave on the View. So again, somebody
Speaker 1: else that knows you. I know you, And of course
Speaker 1: I don't speak for everyone in Fox News. I only
Speaker 1: speak for myself and what I heard and what I've
Speaker 1: seen per my time there. Um, But no, I mean you,
Speaker 1: you gotta say it exactly that way. So I don't
Speaker 1: know what other people may say behind closed doors, but
Speaker 1: I know what was been publicly stated by executives, talent,
Speaker 1: and staff. So that that was just to me. When
Speaker 1: I read that and I saw some of the things
Speaker 1: that I was like, oh, yeah, this is a bunch
Speaker 1: of bs. And I can't imagine anyone who actually worked
Speaker 1: at Fox saying these things, um, that they said about you.
Speaker 1: So that's that was just bizarre. And you're right, you're
Speaker 1: now you're a bona fide celebrity. Is not being on
Speaker 1: Fox News. On being on Fox News, you can be
Speaker 1: famous and sir in areas, but now you're you're, in
Speaker 1: my opinion, the most impactful housewives in the in the franchise,
Speaker 1: people are talking about real issues now. Granted, people do
Speaker 1: watch reality show to see people fall out of the
Speaker 1: bushes and be drunk and throw glass. Boy, that's why
Speaker 1: I wouldn't I wouldn't be watching it because it's not
Speaker 1: my thing. But you've done and I don't agree with
Speaker 1: everything you say, Let's be clear about that, as you
Speaker 1: don't agree with everything that I say. But you've made
Speaker 1: an impact that I think most people would never expect
Speaker 1: to come out of a housewife franchise, and that I
Speaker 1: think probably is the It's one of the biggest honors
Speaker 1: that you can have. How does that that make you
Speaker 1: you feel? And think about what you're doing as people
Speaker 1: say that, oh, if you go into the housewives show,
Speaker 1: it would take you down a peg and your brand
Speaker 1: wouldn't be the same. You would be known as the
Speaker 1: reality TV show a star and that's it. You would
Speaker 1: never be able to get back in news. And none
Speaker 1: of those things are true. No, thank God that those
Speaker 1: things are true. But again, I never had those worries. Um.
Speaker 1: Let's go back to when it was announced that I
Speaker 1: was going to be the first black housewife on Real
Speaker 1: Housewives in New York, which was October. Like you said,
Speaker 1: we we had been in deep conversation, so it was
Speaker 1: no surprise to you. But we have mutual colleagues, UM
Speaker 1: in various news spaces that reached out to you with
Speaker 1: concern right on my behalf. You know, what's your girl doing? Um,
Speaker 1: she's messing up a great career. All these and I
Speaker 1: had those same things. The reason I was never concerned
Speaker 1: about it, worried or fearful. Again, Guide had ordered the step.
Speaker 1: You know, there's that meme um ge that talks about
Speaker 1: how people are supposed to understand your calling because God
Speaker 1: didn't give it to you on a conference call, right,
Speaker 1: So that is deep to me. That is saying that
Speaker 1: you have people at this point in my career I
Speaker 1: feel just trust me. It don't have to make sense
Speaker 1: to you. It don't have to make sense to you.
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to look logical to you. It doesn't
Speaker 1: have to look like anything that makes sense to you.
Speaker 1: Just trust that. At this point in the game, I
Speaker 1: know what I'm doing because I my ear is to
Speaker 1: the Kingdom, okay, and he is telling me, by direct
Speaker 1: order and spiritual calling exactly how to move and manifest. Again,
Speaker 1: let's go back to my time at Revolt on say
Speaker 1: the culture people said that then, oh my god, what
Speaker 1: are you doing? You're gonna be sitting up there with
Speaker 1: a bunch of rappers and you're better than that, and
Speaker 1: didn't what people need to know about me, because again,
Speaker 1: this is all favorite play here. This is not me,
Speaker 1: this is of God. I'm never going to reduce myself
Speaker 1: to a position of a platform. What's going to happen
Speaker 1: is an elevation of the platform period. Every time, every
Speaker 1: time I could go on the Bad Girls Club, know
Speaker 1: that the Bad Girls Club is going to look different
Speaker 1: with me on there. That's just the vibes. So I
Speaker 1: really hope at this point people that have watched RONI
Speaker 1: that have never watched it before, which is a litany
Speaker 1: of people. Have Some people turned it off absolutely because
Speaker 1: they are not with anything of substance. They only one
Speaker 1: to see something vapid and ridiculous that frankly make some
Speaker 1: mockery of women. So if that's why you watch the show,
Speaker 1: you are probably not enjoying it with me on it
Speaker 1: because it's too much substance, it's too much vulnerability, it's
Speaker 1: too much real life. I'm proud of that because that's
Speaker 1: the future of this franchise. See, people have to also
Speaker 1: understand this gena. We are living in a cultural climate
Speaker 1: where things that were acceptable socially are just not acceptable anymore.
Speaker 1: Now we can debate the merits of why and how
Speaker 1: it is a moving too fast or but it is
Speaker 1: what it is. It's here. Okay, you can't go into
Speaker 1: the workplace anymore and slap a woman on the booty
Speaker 1: and say good job, and Okay, that's not going down anymore. Similarly,
Speaker 1: in in reality television, some of the antics, some of
Speaker 1: the antics are not sustainable. So the platform has to evolve.
Speaker 1: And and the fact that God has chosen me, called
Speaker 1: me to do this work in this way in front
Speaker 1: of millions of viewers each and every week, that I'm
Speaker 1: able to connect to get people thinking about what it
Speaker 1: is to go and search for their biological parent, what
Speaker 1: it is to celebrate beauty of the bond between Black
Speaker 1: and Jewish communities, what it is to celebrate the beauty
Speaker 1: of black excellence, whether it be in Harlem or Alabama,
Speaker 1: or Atlanta or d cit. I'm extremely blessed to an
Speaker 1: honor to serving that space. Well, thank you for making
Speaker 1: that statement, Emany, I appreciate it. Now we need to
Speaker 1: take another break. When we come back, I want to
Speaker 1: ask Ebany about some of the criticisms of her being
Speaker 1: on the show and what it might have done. Uh,
Speaker 1: we had to talk about it. Some of the criticism
Speaker 1: you're being on the show. We want to get into
Speaker 1: that right after a quick break. So we got emany
Speaker 1: Kay Williams on with outlaw what Gianno called them excited
Speaker 1: to have her on, and we're talking Real host Wives.
Speaker 1: Now you're in a much different place. Reality show is
Speaker 1: one in which people Reality TV is one in which
Speaker 1: people usually see as a a place where uncouth people
Speaker 1: really reside. That's whether whether folks that are willing to
Speaker 1: do anything and everything to be famous. And clearly you're
Speaker 1: you were a serious talent from the beginning. And just
Speaker 1: to put things in perspective, last year you all tape
Speaker 1: right after right during a period of COVID George Floyd,
Speaker 1: there was a lot of conversation going on about race
Speaker 1: and every week I can tell you from working at
Speaker 1: Fox News it was something literally, I mean every network
Speaker 1: you should say, uh was talking about it. Local television
Speaker 1: was talking about it. So just putting things and that
Speaker 1: perspective gives you an understanding how some of the conversations
Speaker 1: went on the show. Now people have said that, uh,
Speaker 1: you your your two woke, your your pre chee. They said,
Speaker 1: you're asserting politics and the Real Housewives, and of course
Speaker 1: people want to just watch white women get drunk and
Speaker 1: throw things and talk about having sex and all these
Speaker 1: other things. And they're saying that you've impacted the show
Speaker 1: in a negative way by talking about blackness, about talking
Speaker 1: about uh wokeness. And I don't, I don't necessarily want
Speaker 1: to you is that term? I know people who have
Speaker 1: been using him a lot lately. I asked Marca Romont
Speaker 1: Hill on the podcast. I said, will do what what
Speaker 1: is woke? He said he didn't know. And I can
Speaker 1: agree because woke used to be something entirely different when
Speaker 1: people talked about being wokey. But usually these highly intellectual
Speaker 1: black people who would say, listen, don't treat black women
Speaker 1: like that, stay woke, or I know about our history,
Speaker 1: our true history, stay woke. It wasn't seen as the
Speaker 1: very divisive uh statement as it is now, because I mean,
Speaker 1: the term has changed drastically. If by woke what people
Speaker 1: mean is operating with a level of race consciousness. Um,
Speaker 1: I proudly do so. Um and and and woke even
Speaker 1: didn't really applaud to me because to me, even the
Speaker 1: genesis of the term woke would would reference some an awakening,
Speaker 1: which means you are now conscious in a way that
Speaker 1: you have not been before as somebody who's from six
Speaker 1: years old on up was raised on the autobiography of
Speaker 1: Malcolm X and the narratives of Frederick Douglas and all
Speaker 1: the things, uh the Souls of Black Folks by two
Speaker 1: Boys and Baldwin and all the things I've never been
Speaker 1: sleep that might be for someone else that that had
Speaker 1: an awakening of black consciousness. And it's never too late.
Speaker 1: Do you know somebody can get woke today? I guess.
Speaker 1: But I have never been out of touch with an
Speaker 1: extreme academic people have to forget, you know, I have
Speaker 1: a bachelor's degree in Black studies. I'm not new to this,
Speaker 1: you know. So um, yes, I think that the term
Speaker 1: people are looking for is somebody who is bringing an
Speaker 1: unapologetic and an intense level of black consciousness to the show.
Speaker 1: And that has been met with scrutiny. Yes, so it's
Speaker 1: been mat with scrutiny. There they were saying, Uh, folks
Speaker 1: have said critics have said that you're ruining the show
Speaker 1: that by talking about it. Uh wokenus if you will,
Speaker 1: talking about black excellence of a lot of folks have
Speaker 1: said that, which is very interesting to me that they
Speaker 1: would even publish something like that, but to do each
Speaker 1: his own to say at especially in that light, like
Speaker 1: oh man, you're talking about black people too much. You're
Speaker 1: having a black Shabbat dinner, Like what is this? What
Speaker 1: are you talking about Jewish people for? Why do we care?
Speaker 1: Like we want to see fights and all of that.
Speaker 1: That didn't make sense to me. It's certainly different from
Speaker 1: what we've seen. I'm sure what people have seen on
Speaker 1: the show before. So you know, I get that part,
Speaker 1: But what is your response when people say that you're
Speaker 1: you're ruining the show? Like, I just don't. I don't
Speaker 1: get that piece because you've made some interesting comments which
Speaker 1: I thought were valid. You talked about how it's the
Speaker 1: producers that set up the show. They edit everything in
Speaker 1: a particular way, so a week after week there can
Speaker 1: be conversations that can either be shared in its full
Speaker 1: detail or it can be briefe um, you made mention
Speaker 1: mention of those things. You also talked about how one
Speaker 1: of the most popular franchises, the Real Housewives of Atlanta,
Speaker 1: their ratings are dropping in people are now you know,
Speaker 1: COVID isn't over, but people are now getting the freedom
Speaker 1: to go out of the house. So who's necessarily sitting
Speaker 1: there watching television every night. We don't know because they've
Speaker 1: been locked in the house for eighteen months. So you know,
Speaker 1: what is there? So what is your response to that?
Speaker 1: I think people, you know, need to just really relax. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, and I think so and or say what
Speaker 1: you really mean, right, which is not that Oh no,
Speaker 1: she's ruining the show with all of this race talk
Speaker 1: or black consciousness talk or black excellence talk. Say what
Speaker 1: you mean, which is we're totally happy when the show
Speaker 1: centers on white excellence. I'll give you an example. There
Speaker 1: was a season where my cast mate Sonia Morrigan took
Speaker 1: everybody to Philadelphia to see the Morgan Library, you know,
Speaker 1: of her her marital family. Uh, the JP Morgan Chase
Speaker 1: Bank family. Um, we're all too happy when Ramona pulls
Speaker 1: up at the Learning Annex to to listen to people
Speaker 1: talk about how to have it all. Those are white
Speaker 1: centric events, Um, where no one's drunk, no one's falling
Speaker 1: into bushes. Their academic and educational and nature and nobody
Speaker 1: had a problem with those things. But I have one
Speaker 1: Harlem night dinner around black excellence and Harlem Renaissance, and
Speaker 1: it's a problem come on, Know what you are bored
Speaker 1: with is that you are understandably conditioned to a narrative
Speaker 1: that centers around whiteness. And when a black woman, a
Speaker 1: first season housewife, has the audacity to move that central
Speaker 1: point to one of blackness, you are angry, you are upset,
Speaker 1: and you don't want to be part of it. And
Speaker 1: that's what's happening. And I can accept that, but I
Speaker 1: would prefer people be honest about it. G and also
Speaker 1: miss me with the um oh, I only watched this
Speaker 1: show for fun times, shenanigans and antics. That's not true either,
Speaker 1: because some of the higher rated seasons of Ronie dealt
Speaker 1: with divorce, dealt with bankruptcy, dealt with alcoholism, sobriety, arrest, felony,
Speaker 1: arrest of assaults of police officers. Come on, now, you know,
Speaker 1: so no these shows and that's just Rony, that's just
Speaker 1: Real Housewives of New York. You go to Beverly Hughes,
Speaker 1: you're talking about Sue side talk. You know, these are
Speaker 1: some serious ass issues that are addressed on Real Housewives
Speaker 1: for years. It's the audacity to make them centered around
Speaker 1: blackness on a show that is a not all black cast.
Speaker 1: Because Atlanta did the same thing. You know, we saw
Speaker 1: Porsche Williams protesting UM with you know, several collective action
Speaker 1: groups around Brianna Taylor and so forth. We saw Married
Speaker 1: to Medicine going to the march on Washington and because
Speaker 1: their physicians running COVID testing sites, which was beautiful to see.
Speaker 1: You know. So certain audiences tolerate that very and celebrated
Speaker 1: even in a way that this Real Housewives of New
Speaker 1: York audience has not. Yeah, that's that's interesting. And I'm
Speaker 1: also interested in why Romona Singer has responded in a
Speaker 1: way that she has of with some of that come
Speaker 1: and she made her around the Black Shabbat dinner and
Speaker 1: some of these other scenes that I've seen. Has been
Speaker 1: really interesting to watch how she responds and isolates her
Speaker 1: self when the conversations occur. It's just kind of weird
Speaker 1: to see that. But did that shock you to see
Speaker 1: how she responded to you when you you have these
Speaker 1: kind of conversations. I was still at that point getting
Speaker 1: to know Ramana Gianna, So I don't know if it's
Speaker 1: so much it shocked me. It's just, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: a very pragmatic person. Um So at that point I
Speaker 1: was still just obtaining really evidence of who she was
Speaker 1: as a woman and as a person. So when you
Speaker 1: know she made the comments about false equivalences between white
Speaker 1: and black women in maternal mortality and just other you know,
Speaker 1: ridiculous comments that she made, um the dismissal of the
Speaker 1: Jewish oppression here in America, the dismissal certainly of of
Speaker 1: the black experience in America, which can be both oppressive
Speaker 1: and extremely liberating. And though it was I surprised to
Speaker 1: know what I was was taking notes. You know, So
Speaker 1: now listen, people tell you, not just Ramona, all people,
Speaker 1: all people Gianna will tell you exactly who they are.
Speaker 1: You have to just be quiet long enough to listen.
Speaker 1: And then when they tell you who they are as
Speaker 1: the great my angels said, says, believe them the first time.
Speaker 1: So that's all I have to say about that. It
Speaker 1: was so interested in knowing how you felt about that,
Speaker 1: because that one would look problematic to me just seeing
Speaker 1: a response, But that to me personally, I don't know
Speaker 1: how everybody else thought about it, but it was just
Speaker 1: odd at best. It was just it just look insane
Speaker 1: to me. But anyway, moving on, before we let you go,
Speaker 1: because We've been talking for a bit, and I know
Speaker 1: you've got things to do before we let you go.
Speaker 1: I wanted to get your take on some of these
Speaker 1: headlines that are out there this week. Just get your
Speaker 1: thoughts on it, if you would. As I'm sure you saw,
Speaker 1: the Taliban took over Afghanistan right after President Biden with
Speaker 1: true are remaining troops from there. The scenes that we saw,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, at the airport was shocking. Desperate Afghans
Speaker 1: were literally trying to hang onto a U. S Military
Speaker 1: plane as they flew away, and several thousand Americans remained
Speaker 1: trapped in Afghanistan. Are your thoughts on a debacco there? Listen?
Speaker 1: You know what I'm not gonna do is Monday morning, Quarterback.
Speaker 1: I think the basics of what you said heartbreaking, devastating. UM,
Speaker 1: it's just it's it's it's a nightmare. UM. My heart
Speaker 1: and soul and prayers go out to the Afghan people,
Speaker 1: particularly the women and girls there whose lives will never
Speaker 1: be the same. We know that, UM, none of the
Speaker 1: people's will, but the women and girls, it's it's going
Speaker 1: to be extra horrible. UM. As it relates to the politics,
Speaker 1: you know, I'll echo Kondo Leeza Rice, who knows more
Speaker 1: about geopolitics than most we've had four administrations. UM, really
Speaker 1: air to put it very modly, and uh contribute to
Speaker 1: devastation to probably put it more accurately as it relates
Speaker 1: to what we are currently seeing in Afghanistan. And that's
Speaker 1: not to take anything away from the responsibility of Biden.
Speaker 1: But I'm not about to sit up here neck like
Speaker 1: Trump is not also responsible, Barack Obama is not also responsible,
Speaker 1: and George, of you Bush, it's not also responsible. Um.
Speaker 1: And and all we can do is really pray that
Speaker 1: God forgives us in our nation for our contribution to
Speaker 1: the depth station of those people. Yeah, and you're right there.
Speaker 1: There was a number of presidents who had a hand
Speaker 1: in this, going all the way back to George George W.
Speaker 1: Bush for sure. And obviously now Biden is the president.
Speaker 1: And Biden is the one who said on the world
Speaker 1: stage when he was running for office that he would
Speaker 1: be the adult in the room. He would talk to
Speaker 1: our allies. And apparently it was reported that he's not
Speaker 1: had any conversations with our allies and he and I
Speaker 1: get it. You're right, you know, you know that he
Speaker 1: has taken this, but he really is to blame for
Speaker 1: this withdrawal, which is unnecessary and not what I would
Speaker 1: expect from a US sitting president who has so much
Speaker 1: experience in this place, being in foreign policy for a
Speaker 1: decade after decade. So I definitely get your point there,
Speaker 1: and I just wish that the people can work together.
Speaker 1: We can have a Bipartistan conversation about this. We do
Speaker 1: need to care of those interpreters who helped us. We
Speaker 1: need to get our military equipment out if we can,
Speaker 1: if we can, we need to really not surrender the
Speaker 1: stage to the to domestic not domestic, but a terrorist
Speaker 1: operation on as a Taliban. So I just found that
Speaker 1: to be just embarrassing and horrific that President Biden has
Speaker 1: allowed this to go on. It's really troubling for me,
Speaker 1: especially as being someone who was supposed to be such
Speaker 1: a serious leader on these issues. Yeah, I mean it's unconscionable.
Speaker 1: Um book stops with Biden, no doubt. But the problem
Speaker 1: is every American president said they were gonna do so
Speaker 1: this was going to happen regardless, you know, we could
Speaker 1: whoever did this, whoever pulled out completely, this was going
Speaker 1: to be the result. I don't really, if I'm being
Speaker 1: real with you, Giano see much better of an outcome
Speaker 1: because so many of the on the ground Afghani people. Um,
Speaker 1: it just wasn't. I don't think the numbers were there
Speaker 1: to prevent this kind of outcome. I really don't. Um.
Speaker 1: Could there have been more diplomatic conversation, sure, um, with
Speaker 1: that made a difference, I'm not sure. UM. What I
Speaker 1: do believe is this was flawed from the onset. You know,
Speaker 1: I think when you decided you're going to go occupy
Speaker 1: foreign terrain in this way, there has to be a
Speaker 1: much deeper, more coherent, long term strategy, and there never
Speaker 1: was one from the onset, and that's what we're seeing now.
Speaker 1: Then the question is who's children are we gonna send
Speaker 1: over there to die? You know who's going? So it's
Speaker 1: a it's a terrible outcome all around. Yeah, no, no
Speaker 1: question about it. And you know, I personally disagree that
Speaker 1: it would be the same way no matter who the
Speaker 1: president was. But that's another conversation for another day. Ebany,
Speaker 1: I want to thank you so much for joining me
Speaker 1: on No no, no, no, no no no. I just
Speaker 1: want to question I'm curious around who and you know
Speaker 1: What're you about to put a name on it? Whose
Speaker 1: leadership would have made it look different? Do you think?
Speaker 1: And what would that leadership intended? A president who was
Speaker 1: willing to take the advice from the military officials on
Speaker 1: the ground. The military was against many officials in the
Speaker 1: military way against doing the withdrawal this way, meaning withdraw
Speaker 1: all at once. Right first and foremost, you're the president
Speaker 1: of the free world. You should talk to our allies.
Speaker 1: Our allies, UM have people on the ground there as well.
Speaker 1: You're the biggest, the most powerful country. So there should
Speaker 1: have been an ongoing conversation, right, Okay, So let's let's
Speaker 1: play out the hypothetical. So and so let's move let's
Speaker 1: move the names, because I think that that flusters the conversation.
Speaker 1: President A talks to the allies. The allies say, um,
Speaker 1: maintain some true presidents otherwise it's gonna be a ship show.
Speaker 1: That's that. That's that's what happened, right. How My question, though,
Speaker 1: is what president is going to continue to come to
Speaker 1: the American people and the American military families and say
Speaker 1: your sons and daughters and non binar are identifying soldiers
Speaker 1: are still over here in a country where this country
Speaker 1: is not willing to stand up in the same way.
Speaker 1: How how long does that go on? That's only that's
Speaker 1: the only question. I Mean, one can argue, hey, we
Speaker 1: should have left a long time ago, and I think
Speaker 1: that's a reasonable argument to have. However, one could argue
Speaker 1: we should have never gone, and that's true too. I mean,
Speaker 1: we can we can talk about that, and we can
Speaker 1: talk about how big of a failure was for George W.
Speaker 1: Bush to have been pushing the war to begin with,
Speaker 1: and how we were alied to That's true. But you
Speaker 1: then elect other people, and I get it. You take
Speaker 1: President be name out of it, and you just insert
Speaker 1: any president if you're gonna have somebody who said, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm a foreign policy wonk. I'm the guy who knows
Speaker 1: how to get it done. I know all the world leaders,
Speaker 1: and I talked to them regularly. And then you get
Speaker 1: on the world stage and you refuse to draw listen
Speaker 1: to the military officials who are on the ground. Who
Speaker 1: understands that's what the previous president said, I would listen
Speaker 1: to the military officials on the ground before making the
Speaker 1: decision because he wanted to draw that on the troops too.
Speaker 1: But you can't is the solution of forever occupancy, because
Speaker 1: that's what Obamas. It isn't. It isn't. But you should
Speaker 1: have ensured that you've got now keep people and you've
Speaker 1: worked with our allies to do it safely. The military
Speaker 1: should have been the last ones to go so the
Speaker 1: Taliban didn't overtake the region as quickly as they did.
Speaker 1: That's where it becomes problematic in my view and in
Speaker 1: my eyes, and especially when our president knew about all
Speaker 1: of this stuff Wednesday and Thursday, and then by that
Speaker 1: Friday he went on vacation, Like what who does that?
Speaker 1: Another conversation, he went to Kim Code on COVID, This
Speaker 1: wasn't people and more people than Afghanistan? The hell are
Speaker 1: you talking about? G And let's be let's be clear.
Speaker 1: He's not the president, he's a U. S. Senator. And yes,
Speaker 1: he should have stayed put. He shouldn't have left. He
Speaker 1: shouldn't have left. But again, he shouldn't have left. But again,
Speaker 1: but again, that's not one excuse or another. Conservatives attack
Speaker 1: their crews, just like conservatives are attacking Joe Biden for
Speaker 1: going on vacation. But again, and this is the problem
Speaker 1: with our whole ship. Right, why can't conservatives attack tag Cruise?
Speaker 1: And why can't Democrats attack Joe Biden? See see the hypocrisy? Yeah,
Speaker 1: but Democrats aren't attacking Joe Biden and making every excuse
Speaker 1: in the book. And conservatives were not attacking tech crew.
Speaker 1: They actually were a number of conservatives attack And let's
Speaker 1: be clear. I was one of the ones saying, what
Speaker 1: were you thinking going on vacation in the middle of COVID.
Speaker 1: It's a horrible look. We can talk about the outlier
Speaker 1: partisans that have the balls and the political integrity to attack,
Speaker 1: not even attacked, to hold their all party leadership accountable,
Speaker 1: y'all outliers when it does happen, When are we as
Speaker 1: a nation giannao going to put people, policy and integrity
Speaker 1: over partisanship. And that's why I can't rock with these
Speaker 1: political parties. I'm just telling you, maybe when you run
Speaker 1: for office, we can do that. Are you running for office?
Speaker 1: And any point I probably what that could look like,
Speaker 1: I can't imagine because I'm not a partisan hack and
Speaker 1: I just the politics is a money game. So how
Speaker 1: does one get enough money to run successfully without playing
Speaker 1: the political partisan game? And that's that's that's when we
Speaker 1: figured that out as a nation, we might get on
Speaker 1: track to avoid this type of global catastrophe as we
Speaker 1: are seeing now in Afghanistan, and we might get on
Speaker 1: tracks to avoid the domestic implications of a pandemic that
Speaker 1: could have been handled in a much better way a
Speaker 1: lot sooner. In with that, Emony kay Williams ends with
Speaker 1: the soliloquy for your money, brock and providing us with
Speaker 1: the platform that if you decide to run for office
Speaker 1: one day, I'm sure this would be a part of
Speaker 1: the conversation, and I think that if you did, we
Speaker 1: we would be well served. So thank you so much
Speaker 1: for joining me and all the love and respect for
Speaker 1: you and what you're doing. Even though I don't agree
Speaker 1: with everything you do or say, but you know you've
Speaker 1: been a very consistent light in my life. Um you
Speaker 1: tell me when you think I'm wrong, you give me
Speaker 1: constructive criticism, and you do it in love. So for
Speaker 1: people who thought that this was gonna be some big
Speaker 1: debate or I was gonna got you interview for my
Speaker 1: last one, it was gonna be some crazy explosive thing.
Speaker 1: That's not what I'm gonna do with my sister ever,
Speaker 1: never gonna do that with her, and you know I
Speaker 1: have just the greatest respect for you and in appreciation,
Speaker 1: so thank you for joining me as we in the season.
Speaker 1: On the fiftieth episode, I love you so much to
Speaker 1: us and wishing you all the light and all the
Speaker 1: flowers that you're gonna get from here on out. I'm
Speaker 1: so happy to see it. All the love and all
Speaker 1: the light, bro, talk to you, so congrats. I want
Speaker 1: to thank my sister Eddy Kay Williams again for a
Speaker 1: great interview. If you enjoying the show, please leave us
Speaker 1: a review and read us with five stars on that podcast.
Speaker 1: To hear more of my episodes and get my weekly newsletter,
Speaker 1: go to English Street sixty dot com s last Gianna.
Speaker 1: You can also find me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and
Speaker 1: parlor at Gianno Caldwell. And if you're interested in learning
Speaker 1: more about my story, you please pick up a copy
Speaker 1: of my bestselling book, which Ebany is actually in. It
Speaker 1: is called Taken for Granted, How Conservatism Can Win back
Speaker 1: to the Americans that Luberalism failed. Especially thanks to our
Speaker 1: producer Drew Steale, researcher Aaron Kleveman, and executive producers Debbie
Speaker 1: Meyers and speaker, New Gingwich. All part of the Ginger
Speaker 1: Street sixty network.