WEBVTT - Maximum Reading with Max Read 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:19.080 Hey, and welcome to what Future. 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:23.040 I'm your host, Joshua Tapolski, and we have a Crackerjack 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:26.400 of a show. Do people still say that Crackerjack? Does 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:27.440 that even exist anymore? 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:28.720 Do you know? 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.680 Crackerjack's there like a candy, It's like a box. It's 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:34.120 a candy. It's a candy corn. No, no, candy. Corn 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:37.920 is a candy. It's like caramel corn or caramel corn 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:40.720 depending on who you talk to, which I guess is 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:43.800 corn covered in a sugary coating. And then in the 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:45.600 box it was like a red stripe box. Does this 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:47.240 even Does anybody know what I'm talking about? 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:49.280 Lyra or Jenna? Do you know what I'm talking about? 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:50.920 Of course I know what Crackerjack. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:52.880 You know what Crackerjack is? Okay? 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:54.720 And I had a prize in the box, and. 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:57.800 At the bottom of the fucking box there'd be a prize, 0:00:57.800 --> 0:00:58.920 like a toy or something. 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:02.240 That's great. They don't do that anymore. They don't do it. 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:02.840 Maybe they do. 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:05.600 They probably still sell it. It's probably very readily available. 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:08.039 It's probably one of the best selling products at grocery stores. 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:09.520 Heay, cracker Barrel, I bet you. 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:12.760 Cracker Barrel is a right wing establishment dedicated to the 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:16.880 suppression and oppression of many groups, and I can't stand 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:19.000 I won't stand for it. Although they do have really 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:20.920 good biscuits in my recollection. 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:23.240 But I would bet you good money that they sell 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:24.280 cracker jacks in the. 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:26.760 General store, crackerjack at the cracker barrel. 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:29.520 Probably you're probably right, An, Yeah, we have a crackerjack 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:32.839 show for you. We've got a wonderful man, Max Read, 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:37.440 a writer, an editor, a screenwriter, and also a friend, 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:40.440 I should say, a buddy, and he's got a great 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:43.160 newsletter called Read Max that I love. And we're going 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:45.280 to talk about all sorts of stuff. I don't want 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:47.920 to waste one minute, so let's get into this conversation. 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:07.680 You were editor in chief of Gawker when it was 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:08.760 suit out of existence? 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:09.280 Is that right? 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:13.040 The lawsuit was ongoing when I was editor. I left 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:16.519 in twenty fifteen. The following year spring, I want to 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:18.760 say the following year was when the judgment came down 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:20.680 and Gocker declared bankruptcy. 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:22.640 Who was the editor of Gawker at that time. 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:26.160 I think Alex Parene was the editor in chief. I thought, wow, yeah, 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:28.040 the last and final Yeah. 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:30.840 No, not the last and final of that Goker. There 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:32.600 were many other erbitions of Cocker. 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:36.200 They just transitioned. They became h what was it called. 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:40.520 Splinter, splinter, splinder splinter, but splinter was Splinter was owned 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:44.760 by that was? When? Was it owned by Fusion? Is 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:45.360 that was it? 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:45.640 Ye? 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:48.880 Fusion became I'm sorry, this is crazy shit to think about, 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:51.880 but like I know, Fusion was a thing that was 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:55.519 that existed. It was a new media startup. Correct me 0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:56.079 if I'm wrong. 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:58.440 It was It was new media within Telemundo. 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:02.800 It was like Telemundo Star new Yes, start up, tell them. 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:07.120 Telemundo started a thing called Fusion dot net, which was 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:11.400 a a diverse millennial news operation, right that was sort 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:15.440 of like the overarching which like from like I get it, 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:18.360 like very of the moment, like very like Mashable, like 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:21.040 in the spectrum of like a Mashable and uh yeah, 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:22.400 I mean who else who else would it have been? 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:25.679 I guess BuzzFeed News, Mike whatever, This is not Mike, Yeah, 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.760 Mike's other perfect example. Actually, I would say in a 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:31.440 way Fusion was like a mic competitor. Probably is the 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:34.079 most most accurate. Anyhow, Sorry, this is not we don't 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:35.480 have to talk about this at all. In fact, I wasn't really 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:37.800 planning on talking about it, but although I do want 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:40.480 to talk about media because you are a member of 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:43.680 the media elite as we know, I don't know what 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:45.360 what is the word for a person who just has 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:45.960 a newsletter? 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:46.560 What do you call that? 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:50.160 I call myself an owner operator, a small business, small 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:50.840 business owner. 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:52.200 You're a small business owner. 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:55.440 Okay, so you get some some of Biden's tax break, 0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:59.000 tax breaks for the one percent, for the elite. So 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:01.600 you're in the media, right, you'd say you're in the media, 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:04.480 like you continue you continue to publish content that is 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:06.680 in the sphere of news media. 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:09.000 Would you say, yeah, I mean, I I write twice 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:12.360 a week on my substack, do some freelance journalism still too. 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:15.360 I mean, it's funny the fact that you sort of 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:17.440 we sort of started talking about this and then immediately 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:20.919 started remembering some websites. It's very hard. I started my 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:23.839 substack not really intending to write very much about media. 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:26.840 But if you have been in the business for long enough, 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:29.880 and especially if you lived through the period that we're 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:32.960 talking about, the twenty tens, the crazy twenty tens, it's 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:35.920 hard not to just keep writing about it. Because it 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:38.760 still sticks in your mind. I don't want to say trauma, 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:39.680 but you know it's. 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:42.440 No, no, no, no, it's trauma. It's Trauma's the right word. 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:42.880 I don't know. 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:44.760 I think the word trauma's overused, and I don't want 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:47.000 to say that people who use it don't have trauma. 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:49.240 But I do feel like people say trauma about things 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:51.240 that are like they like, you know, I don't know, 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:53.320 they've got they couldn't find a pair of shoes that fit, 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:55.640 and they're like, I have trauma from that. I'm like, 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:57.640 I don't think that's what the word means. Like, I 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:00.480 feel like it might get a little overused. But because 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:02.880 I had a call earlier today, I was talking to 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:11.039 a reporter and we got into a conversation about the Messenger, Yeah, 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:13.480 which is a the messenger is like so you actually, 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:15.000 I said the boom period when you're talking about what 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:17.279 you're talking about fusion and stuff, but actually what fusion 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:21.080 is in that era, which is like ten late twenty tens. 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:23.440 I want to say, like, right, I don't know when 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:26.320 fusion started or that, like what the but I want 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:31.560 to say, like twenty ten, that's probably later than twenty ten, fourteen, 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:34.920 around thirteen fourteen. It's actually the beginning of the end 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:38.960 for the new media boom. It's like Vice had matured 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:42.600 into this monolithic thing, and BuzzFeed news was at least 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:45.880 rolling probably pretty successful at that point. It was sort 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:47.720 of like the beginning of the end for like the 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:50.760 boom era of like blogging, which would have been which 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:53.960 would have been in the you know, two thousand and 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:57.280 four to two. I mean, obviously stuff happened aslet's say 0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:00.960 two thousand and four to two thousand and ten something 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:02.960 like that is like, yeah, the biggest like boom for 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:05.560 like blogging, blogging, not like corporate owned blogging. 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:07.760 Well, there was, I mean, the way I think about 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:10.400 it is always like there was that early period was 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:12.920 very people would still go to websites. You know, you 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:15.960 would actually go to ngadget dot com or goal dot 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:18.720 com and you you would refresh it to see the feed. 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:21.200 And then it was sort of SEO came along and 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:24.800 it allowed you to maintain a relatively similar format. But 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:27.360 the thing that really sort of turned like the when 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.240 Facebook arrived as like the thing that would give you 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:34.159 traffic around twenty twelve, and all of a sudden, everything 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:36.400 you wrote didn't matter what your website looked like, didn't 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:38.240 matter what your website was. Everything you wrote had to 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:41.440 sound like it could be shared on a social feed 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:41.920 or whatever. 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:42.479 That's right. 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:44.440 And that's when Fusion and all these that's when all 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:46.839 the VC money started really coming in and the big 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:47.599 corporate money. 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:50.440 Yeah, a very dark period. I mean, I'm just trying 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:52.239 to think. I'm trying to think of it in personal 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:54.919 terms only because that's easier for me. My memory is 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:56.440 very bad, and so I have to go like, well, 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:59.240 what was I doing? What was I doing at that point? 0:06:59.360 --> 0:06:59.480 Right? 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:01.840 So, like, yeah, Gadget Crew left to start the Verge 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:05.880 in like twenty ten, I think maybe to early twenty eleven. 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:08.320 We launched the Verge in November of twenty eleven. I'm 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:11.440 pretty sure that sounds wrong, but I think it's actually 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:13.800 right anyhow, whatever, But that that to me is like 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:15.360 sort of the bit that's about when you used to 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:18.080 kickoff of the ends. It's not to be, not to 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:20.520 be you know, self centric or whatever. But like, I 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:23.840 think we were legitimately doing the blogging thing where we're like, 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:25.640 we're going to take our team and go do a thing. 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:27.160 And we went to a company that wasn't it was 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:30.160 VC back but it wasn't like it was an NBC 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:33.640 or whatever. It wasn't like Telemundo wasn't wasn't backing it 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:37.200 or whatever you're writing. You have a sub stack? Am 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:38.000 I allowed to say that? 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:38.760 Yeah? 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:40.960 A lot of times on the Internet somebody says substack. 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:43.440 That might put an asterisk in between the S and 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:45.400 the B because they don't know if Elon Musk is 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:46.040 going to block. 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:47.560 It for auditor. Yeah, well, just don't put it in 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:49.120 the title of this of this podcast. 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:50.600 Yeah, let's talk. We're gonna have to end. 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:53.280 As a note for Lyra and Jenna, please let's make 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:56.320 sure we don't add the word substack fully spelled out 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:56.920 in the title. 0:07:57.240 --> 0:07:59.240 But you have a sub stack, which is a. 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:03.559 Is a company that has created a platform for people 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:08.320 to publish newsletters which look a lot like blog posts. Yeah, 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:09.960 it just sought me at any point where if you 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:11.679 sound like this, if this sounds like this is wrong, 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:15.680 And also, you can charge people a subscription fee for 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:19.720 your newsletter and in doing so create a like a 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:24.400 personal media company, like a single person media brand. 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:25.680 And that's what you've done. 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:28.240 Now you have a thing called read Max which I 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:32.200 have to say, as far as titles goes very unoriginal 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:37.160 for you, but I guess pretty clever as well. Explain 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:39.720 to the listener, who I'm sure are all subscribers of 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:41.600 read Max. By the way I have, I think the 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:44.080 crossover is extremely high. But just explain to them, like 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:45.400 what your newsletter does. 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:49.160 The tagline is that it's a newsletter about the future. 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:53.000 Really, yeah, is that the tagline? Yeah? It is? Wow? 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:56.280 Okay interesting, you know I started it. It's funny. I 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:57.800 was thinking about this the other day. I started it 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:00.240 with this, with the sort of manifesto post that people 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:02.719 can still go back and look at where I said. 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:05.640 I wanted to write a lot about the way life 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:09.320 in the twenty percentury had been shaped by the mega 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:12.720 platforms of the Internet, the way that not just sort 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:18.080 of economics but also culture and social formations get worked 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:21.880 through your facebooks and your Instagrams and your tiktoks. But 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:25.800 as it happens, you know, my editorial philosophy has all 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:29.040 the sort of been that readers like to feel passion 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:31.319 and joy. I sound like I'm giving like an upfront's 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:32.520 presentation to sell the advertise. 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:34.960 I love that. I wish you had like a clicker 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:35.640 and some slides. 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:38.000 Exactly right, if you really could, you have a big 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:40.400 like a pie chart with some percentage of readers who 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:40.720 like the. 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:43.040 Readers love imagine I'm in like a black turtle. 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:45.720 There's like, yeah, it's like it's like seventy eight percent 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:47.080 of readers love to feel passion. 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:49.800 There's a small sliver that don't like passion anyhow. 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:51.160 So this is what happens when you spend any time 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:53.240 in editorial management, as you learn to talk like this. 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:57.560 That being said, yeah cliched, is it sounds It's like 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:01.160 not worth me finding something to say about tech every 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:03.000 week if it means that once a week is going 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:06.640 to be boring. So in practice, the tagline of newsletter 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:08.520 is a newsletter about the future. In practice, it's a 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:12.880 newsletter about things that I think are interesting, which includes AI, 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:18.319 includes crypto, includes you know, platforms like Facebook, includes media stuff. 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:22.240 Also includes action movies, sci fi movies. Yes, sort of 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:25.760 whatever is is interesting me at any given moment. So 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:28.559 it's hard to give the elevator pitch. But people who 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:30.640 are on the same wave link that I am, I 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:33.600 think like it because they because it gives them a 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:37.040 sort of weekly dose of interesting thinking about, you know, 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:40.440 whatever is going on in whatever things are interesting me 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:41.000 at that moment. 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:44.840 Yeah, I think I think the most successful publications, whether 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:48.839 they're a person doing a newsletter or you know, lots 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:51.120 of people working on something, tend to be the ones 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:55.520 that center not around necessarily a very hard line of 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:59.559 specific topics, but a kind of philosophical through line. And 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:02.000 I mean, I agree with you, would be boring to 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:06.040 simply write about like whatever that description is supposed to 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:08.440 encapsulate or could encapsulate. It probably would be very boring 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:10.640 every week to hear about that. But you have you 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:13.719 do go pretty far afield. Yeah, Like I downloaded and 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:15.719 started watching this film Nemesis the other day, which I 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:18.199 definitely saw in my youth. I mean, you might have 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:21.200 written more than one occasion about the movie, but it's 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:22.840 not a good movie. I mean, to me, just for 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:26.120 starters time, I want to be very clear, it's not 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:28.760 like high art or anything. It is like it was 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:32.360 an early nineties. Yeah, like a cyber science fiction kind 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:34.160 of movie. It's like it's like there were a lot 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:35.840 of movies in the early nineties. Another one of them 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:38.600 is Hardware, which I'm sure you've seen I hope you've seen, 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.760 which originally was rated triple X very like for real, 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:45.880 like actually it was rated ACTS or triple X is 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:47.719 whatever they called it when it was you know, like, 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:50.720 but there's this kind of genre of film people who 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:53.720 like read Neuromancer and were like, that's cool, But I 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:55.959 don't really have much of a budget. What could I do? 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:59.000 Like if I like this like a cyberpunk idea, but 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:01.000 I don't really have the to go all the way. 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:03.560 And so Nemesis is what of the because you wrote 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:05.120 about but you actually did a post. I want to 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:09.480 say it was like a ranking of the sunglasses from Nemesis, 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:11.559 the cool sunglasses from Nemesis. 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:14.440 Yeah. I felt so inspired after seeing that that. 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:16.240 I was like, I got to watch this movie again, 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:18.840 and so I h of course I went on the 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:22.280 Pirate Bay, which is still in existence, even though you 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:25.160 have to definitely get a computer. 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.480 Virus to access it. You absolutely have. 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:29.360 To get a computer virus to go to the Pirate 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:33.520 Bay and downloaded a you know, a HD like Blu 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:35.520 Ray rip of Nemesis. 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:36.920 Christine twenty one sixty. 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:38.760 You know, no, no, no, I can't be. 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:41.840 I can't be watching Nemesis in some seven twenty shit 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:44.240 like I need to see I need to see every 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:48.720 grain of sand in the extremely sandy atmosphere of the 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:50.880 film anyhow. But so so you're writing about like you 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:54.320 write about stuff that is definitely not the future. But 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:57.719 I am curious what is like in your mind? Like 0:12:57.760 --> 0:12:59.640 when you say the future, what are things you've written 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:01.680 and talked about and are thinking about recently that would 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:02.880 fall into that category. 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:05.600 I mean, I'm not any different than anybody else who's 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:09.320 paying attention right now in thinking that, like AI is, 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:12.319 the is kind of the thing that we everybody is 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:16.040 talking about, and therefore becomes interesting just because it is 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:19.200 a thing that everybody's talking about. You know, I was 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:21.360 over the last couple of years, I would describe myself 0:13:21.360 --> 0:13:25.319 as a cryptoskeptic, but I still found crypto as a 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:29.120 kind of like object of interest worth writing about and 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:32.560 thinking about, both as a reason to criticize it, but 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:35.760 also you know, the communities that arise around something like crypto, 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:39.400 the kind of like the art work I suppose, or 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:42.600 the cultural formation, if you want to call it that, 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:45.320 I mean, between Nemesis and Bordees. Clearly I have a 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:47.679 real fascination with bad art at something you're. 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:48.880 Interesting to me here. 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:51.720 I've often described the NFT boom as the Olympics of 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:54.560 bad art, which I would I think it's just like 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:58.240 an astounding quantity of just like the people competing for 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:00.679 the top slot and like the bad art. Yeah, I 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:02.320 mean just some of the worst shit ever put into 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:03.400 it into humanity. 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:05.360 I mean, to any terrible. But isn't that But to me, 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:07.880 that's like it's sort of fascinating, Like there's something fascinating 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:12.400 about this, like weird grifter culture, like tacky grifter culture 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:14.760 emerging like billionaires. 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:18.000 Yeah, what happens when you find out that like something 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:20.160 that could you could scam people out of money is art, 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:22.560 and like you can and it's like not art, like 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:24.800 I had need, I have a Picasso, Right, it's not 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:27.120 like not that that's a scam. That's a whole different 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:32.440 type of scam actually, but one that is real. But 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:34.480 but but yeah, like what it happens. I mean, that's 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:36.680 an interesting place to explore it, right, Yeah, I hear 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:38.160 what you're saying, Like and. 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:40.400 You know, like right now, all of the all of 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:43.000 that energy, all of that kind of like prenetic like 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:46.400 what's next, what's big? What's interesting energy is is plunged 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:49.800 into large language models and the AI scene in general. 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:52.240 And to me this is even more kind of fruitful 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:55.560 and interesting than crypto because the technology is much more 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:59.760 obviously impressive and like has applications you can think of 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:02.479 with out having to like, you know, get a lobotomy 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:04.960 and start talking like Mark andrieson or what. 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:09.040 About slurp juice to understand like what AI could do 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:09.360 for you? 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:11.720 Yeah, and you know it Also it's interesting to me 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:14.360 because for the obvious reason that, like, as a writer, 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:18.280 like this is this is technology that is directly overlaps 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:20.920 with what I am trained to and paid to do, 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:24.160 you know, and I try to be in general, my 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:27.280 approach to this stuff is to try and figure out 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:30.760 what excites like what excites what excites other people about 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:32.720 something that doesn't necessarily excite me, or like what is 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:36.240 what do people find so captivating about it. It's a 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:38.120 little easier to do that because, like I said, it's 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:40.640 sort of obviously impressive, and I try to approach it 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:45.360 not from like a purely critical, purely kind of negative standpoint. 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:48.080 Even if I think, you know, Sam Altman is not 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:51.120 a great guy or somebody who's got my best interests 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:51.480 in mind. 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:53.760 Frankly, they ever are a great guy? Are they know? 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:06.400 Was the last time there was like a huge new 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.240 technology started by somebody that you're like, that is a 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:10.000 freat person. 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:12.160 I really like him. They seem cool. 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.120 I mean it is unusual, right, yeah. I mean people 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:18.600 used to love like Steve Jobs, but even Steve Jobs 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:22.720 and not upon further reflection, by the way, always seemed 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:24.440 like kind of not a great guy, like he was 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:25.240 sort of a dick. 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:27.440 I mean, you must remember, I feel like it was. 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.040 It's just a different cultural difference between like the nineties 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:31.840 and two thousands is now as people used to sort 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:34.800 of laugh about Steve Jobs as an abuse of boss like, 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:37.680 which he really obviously was. Every story you'd hear, these 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.920 sort of semi heroic stories about him just completely bitching 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:44.240 people out, screening at them whatever, like in the in 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:46.680 the mac Press, in MacAddict or whatever. It was also 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.400 treated as this funny little thing. And now you'd be like, 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:51.800 if that, if that stuff had come out now, that 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:53.920 people would have been up in arms. I mean, because 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:55.880 he sounds like he was an horrible person to work 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:57.640 for and basically every way. 0:16:57.480 --> 0:16:59.880 You do, yes, and then but also you have to 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:04.760 wonder what is what could a Steve Jobs level creator exist? 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:07.800 I mean, this is the ultimate question. If the man 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:10.359 wasn't allowed to be a complete like rage aholic or whatever. 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:12.959 It's also right, he also cried. He also cried a lot, right, 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:14.199 That was the other thing, Like in the in the 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:16.440 Isaacs in books, they talked about him crying, but which 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:18.919 I find just like incongruous with him. I mean, it 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:20.920 makes I can see it, like in my mind's eye. 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:23.320 I'm like, okay, I get it. But like, imagine being 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:26.360 in any work scenario. Okay, you're a you're a guy. 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:29.560 You go into an office, your boss is berating you 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:32.000 or something, or like, you have to deliver bad news, 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:36.520 and his reactions he starts crying in the room. Forget 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:39.760 about forget about abuse for a second. Let's take the 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:42.399 abuse stuff out of it, just for a moment, just 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:44.359 put it to the side. I can't think of a 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:47.199 more uncomfortable situation for a person to be. I mean, 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:50.359 obviously there are more uncomfortable situations, but very unusual and 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:52.760 apparently happened on a regular basis that he would break 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:55.520 down in tears during a meeting or like you did 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:58.960 an argument or something, which is like, it's just very 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:00.480 like he had a lot of volid emotions. 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:02.800 But that's how we got the iPhone from crying lots 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:03.679 of it. 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:06.000 Fucking raises the question because you know what happened. I 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:08.159 guarantee you. I guarantee you. Some people brought him a 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:11.040 shitty fucking touch screen like the original Android. I mean, 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:12.840 I don't know if you remember how Android phones were, 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:15.440 the first version of them, they had like the touch 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:18.119 screen sensitivity was all over the fucking map. They sucked 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:21.480 to use. Yeah, somebody brought him that shit. Yeah, and 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:23.760 he had a meltdown on them. He threw the fucking 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:26.119 phone in the face. He did a David Pogue. He 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:28.520 chucked the phone directly at their face. Remember when David 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:30.320 Poke threw a phone at his wife. This is oh, yeah, 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:32.239 it was sorry, It's just I think about it all 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:34.720 the time. Whenever I noticed that talk about the iPhone, 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:36.520 I'd be like, go to Dave. David Pogue throwing an 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:39.120 iPhone at his wife. Oh also horrible, by the way, 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:41.840 horrible abusive thing to do. But yeah, Steve Jobs, they 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:44.600 gave him the shitty touch screen. He threw it at somebody. 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:46.479 He was like, this is not extentually started crying, I 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:49.960 assume at some point, and then eventually, out of fear, right, 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:53.480 they brought him really good touch screen, like just out 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:55.760 of pure fear. They were like, all right, like we 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:58.560 have to do this, or like he's gonna be really upset. 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:01.040 We don't like want to make Steve us. You know, 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:03.239 would we have gotten the iPhone or would we have 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:05.400 a would it be a whole different future that we're 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:07.600 living in right now. Maybe there would be no social 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:10.440 media because when you think about it, without a great 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:13.199 touch screen, the iPhone's probably not a successful product. And 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:15.600 if it's not successful, then the whole social media boom 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:16.760 and all that shit really doesn't happen. 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:18.479 Might Yeah, I mean when you put it like that, 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:20.120 you're not making an argument that it was a good 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:22.919 thing that any else I'm not sure not if it's 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:25.840 without bad bosses, we wouldn't have social media. Wouldn't that 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:26.280 be great? 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:26.600 Right? 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:28.800 Better workplaces and no Facebook. 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:31.000 But I've come full circle. I mean I was when 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:32.600 I was twelve years old. I got on the Internet 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:35.440 when I was like twelve, right, and it was early internet. 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:38.159 But now I'm like, yeah, we got to shut it down, like, 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:40.159 why did we ever invent any of this stuff? This 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:42.359 seems bad, like we made a huge mistake. 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:44.359 Well, it's funny. 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:47.080 One thing about AI that I noticed is I think 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:50.600 we've gone from a position I mean the sort of 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:53.520 capsule history which isn't which is always more complicated than this, 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:55.880 But the capsule history I think that people tell about themselves, 0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:58.280 journalists tell about themselves and the tech boom is that 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:01.960 we were all a little bit who positive towards the 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:04.200 tech industry, that we were too excited that we gave 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:06.040 them a pass through the recite. 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:09.359 Yeah, we're like the touch screen on this iPhones fucking amazingly. 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:11.200 I mean, as a guy who reviewed most of them, 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:13.200 I was like, oh my god, the touch screen is 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:13.560 so good? 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:15.879 How did they do it? Steve Jobs has done it again? 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:18.200 And then and then when everything kind of fell apart 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:21.000 and it became clear how bad for all of us, 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:22.080 all of this stuff. 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:22.399 Kind of was. 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:24.960 You know, everybody hunched over and was like, we can't 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:26.520 let that happen again. And I think a lot of 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:30.200 the like media critical reaction to a lot of AI 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:32.719 stuff is born out of that fear that we're going 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:35.560 to be too. You know that we that we really 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:38.240 need to give these products like this and technologies like 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:42.440 this really rigorous and clear kind of investigations goings over 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:44.960 like make it make them as good as they possibly can. 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:45.560 Right. 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:48.560 That's obviously you want journalists who are oppositional and aggressive 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:51.080 and critical in all these ways. But it's like creates 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:53.560 this very a very funny and different kind of relationship 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:56.119 with the tech industry than existed in say like two 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:57.760 thousand and five or two thousand and six. 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:00.000 Oh no, totally, totally. 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:02.080 I hear, by the way, the sounds of New York 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:04.840 in the background there, it's like you gotta sir, and 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:06.800 I'm just creeping up. So I've been so long since 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:10.239 I've heard that, now that I live in out the country. No, 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:12.639 you're right, I mean I think there is probably in 0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:14.080 some way an over adjustment. 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:16.640 I mean, I actually, and I've probably told the story before. 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:21.520 But I I had a meeting with actually it was 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:23.719 a fund I was fundraising for the Outline and we 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:27.560 met with Mark Andries and it turned into an argument 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:29.720 between the two of us. It was an interesting meeting 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:32.080 because there were like seven people there and it just 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:35.080 ended up with us arguing with each other. But one 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:38.760 of his arguments about generally about like the tech press, 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:40.560 I mean, the outline wasn't pure tech, but it was 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:42.920 like he was like, you guys are of all, you're 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:45.240 all trashing us, and you're taking shots at us, and 0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:47.320 you're trying to like tear down all the work that 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:49.760 we're doing. And and I was like, one of my 0:21:49.920 --> 0:21:52.639 things that I remember, and I think maybe struck a 0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:55.760 course with him, I was like, we like actually have 0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:59.720 been like nothing but like wonderful to the tech industry, 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:02.280 and we expected like that that people in tech to 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:04.720 be better. Yeah, and you guys have ended up being 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:08.000 exactly like the fucking robber barons of yester year. Like 0:22:08.280 --> 0:22:10.760 you're supposed to be the next generation of like these 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:14.119 leaders who do who hold themselves to a higher standard 0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:16.119 or are more aware of what's going on in the 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:19.520 world and like you know, more sensitive to like the 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:24.120 users and who they are and what they represent and anyhow. 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:26.199 But like, I think that's that is they've reacted very 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:28.960 poorly to getting bad press because they they have gotten 0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:32.920 so much good press, and so there's a hugely defensive stance. 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:34.800 I also think, I mean, I think that the other 0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:37.119 aspect of this that is is sort of unexpected and 0:22:37.160 --> 0:22:38.800 you wouldn't have been able to predict in two thousand 0:22:38.800 --> 0:22:42.359 and six, is these are like the two main power 0:22:42.440 --> 0:22:45.760 user groups on Twitter. So like suddenly all of the 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:49.200 media kind of got shuttled through this one single social 0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:52.280 media feed, and it was the same feed that all 0:22:52.440 --> 0:22:55.359 of all of tech was also on, and it just 0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:58.720 was like just sort of a bad neighbors situation. Like 0:22:58.800 --> 0:23:00.719 maybe like all of a sudden, you went from like 0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:03.080 maybe you get the Times delivered and you see a 0:23:03.119 --> 0:23:05.320 negative article, but you also see the positive article, and 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:06.800 you also get the Journal and there's a bunch of 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:09.320 different things. Now you're like you see every single even 0:23:09.359 --> 0:23:12.760 the lowest level, you know, copy editors talking shit about 0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:15.560 you or like replying to you and calling you egghead 0:23:15.640 --> 0:23:18.360 or whatever, and you're freaking out, like it's too much 0:23:18.359 --> 0:23:18.720 for you. 0:23:19.200 --> 0:23:21.199 That is mean you should never I don't think I 0:23:21.200 --> 0:23:23.159 don't I think never go after people's looks. 0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:25.680 I think you don't you know what I mean. I 0:23:25.920 --> 0:23:26.679 have always felt this. 0:23:26.720 --> 0:23:28.919 I mean, especially during the Trump years, people would be 0:23:28.920 --> 0:23:31.200 like ooh, the orange whatever. I'm like, that's not productive, 0:23:31.320 --> 0:23:33.200 Like it just isn't like it's not a good. 0:23:33.400 --> 0:23:35.640 Clearly, I mean, it clearly got under marketing well, clearly 0:23:35.680 --> 0:23:38.359 got under a bunch of people's skins, various various people. 0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:39.360 I mean, it doesn't. 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:39.719 I mean. 0:23:39.760 --> 0:23:42.200 The funny thing is that Andresen then started his own 0:23:42.240 --> 0:23:46.600 publication to much fanfare, called I think called Future. 0:23:46.640 --> 0:23:49.720 He's also he's also very interested in covering the future, 0:23:49.840 --> 0:23:50.800 like what future and. 0:23:50.920 --> 0:23:51.800 Your public is. 0:23:51.920 --> 0:23:53.400 Then they shut it down because because if. 0:23:53.280 --> 0:23:55.000 He wants to read a fucking white paper from a 0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:57.520 sixteen Z or from andres and Horwitz, like nobody wants 0:23:57.560 --> 0:24:00.760 to read, nobody cares, nobody wants to read PR. First off, 0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:02.480 I wish I could tell all the PR people though 0:24:02.520 --> 0:24:03.440 I wish they could learn. 0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:05.200 But I mean, and the other thing is like running 0:24:05.200 --> 0:24:07.840 an actual like publication that publishes with any kind of 0:24:07.840 --> 0:24:10.080 regularity good things that people want to read with any 0:24:10.119 --> 0:24:12.399 kind of regularity is much more difficult than I think 0:24:12.840 --> 0:24:15.639 people appreciate it. I have this thing about I think 0:24:15.640 --> 0:24:18.520 there's something real about the way people, certain kinds of 0:24:18.520 --> 0:24:21.280 people relate to journalists and the media is because of 0:24:21.400 --> 0:24:24.840 what we do is just write and just sort of 0:24:24.880 --> 0:24:27.439 tell people what's happening in the world. There's there's there's 0:24:27.480 --> 0:24:29.800 a sense that like anybody could kind of do it, 0:24:29.840 --> 0:24:32.200 and so there's a there's a there's a resentment from 0:24:32.240 --> 0:24:34.560 people like Intrisan or whomever that that sort of the 0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:37.000 suggestion that, like, you know, I could be doing what 0:24:37.040 --> 0:24:39.480 you're doing, I could do it better. And when you 0:24:39.520 --> 0:24:41.600 actually try to do it, like run the whole thing 0:24:41.640 --> 0:24:44.000 as a business, like like hit everything that you need 0:24:44.000 --> 0:24:46.800 to hit to be a good journalist and a good 0:24:46.880 --> 0:24:49.639 editor and a good publisher, you recognize that, especially in 0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:51.800 the current environment, especially in the environment that people like 0:24:51.840 --> 0:24:54.600 Andresen created, it's a lot of work. It takes a 0:24:54.640 --> 0:24:56.960 lot of work and a lot of like accumulated skill 0:24:57.040 --> 0:24:59.719 and knowledge. It's not something you can just replicate because 0:25:00.040 --> 0:25:02.639 you've decided that today's journalists don't know how to do 0:25:02.680 --> 0:25:03.600 it right or whatever. 0:25:04.040 --> 0:25:05.960 I agree with everything you just said one hundred percent, 0:25:06.000 --> 0:25:09.520 but I will also say we have so devalued what 0:25:09.880 --> 0:25:10.440 looks like. 0:25:10.560 --> 0:25:13.119 Journalism and news. 0:25:14.080 --> 0:25:17.240 It's been so greatly terrifically devalued, and there are so 0:25:17.359 --> 0:25:20.440 many people who truly suck doing it, like really bad. 0:25:20.680 --> 0:25:23.639 There are like bad actors at places like Daily Wire 0:25:23.760 --> 0:25:27.000 or whatever. There are people who are bad at it, 0:25:27.080 --> 0:25:28.800 like that just aren't good at their job because it 0:25:28.800 --> 0:25:31.679 has become probably there was a period where it was 0:25:31.760 --> 0:25:34.919 easier than ever to go, hey, i'm gonna write, I'm 0:25:34.960 --> 0:25:38.200 gonna make content, Like journalism became this thing called content, 0:25:38.320 --> 0:25:41.080 not the journalism with the capital jay that you're probably 0:25:41.160 --> 0:25:42.600 thinking about or we're talking about. 0:25:42.640 --> 0:25:42.920 Really. 0:25:43.680 --> 0:25:46.440 And also it's all free, yeah, right, it's free to everybody, 0:25:46.440 --> 0:25:48.600 and everybody thinks it should be free. And so I 0:25:48.600 --> 0:25:52.080 think it's that combination of like you've got like legitimately 0:25:52.119 --> 0:25:54.320 bad actors, you've got legitimately like kind of people who 0:25:54.320 --> 0:25:57.159 should never have gotten into the craft to begin with. 0:25:57.359 --> 0:25:59.360 Like not to throw it back to the NFT thing, 0:25:59.359 --> 0:26:01.600 but it's a good it's kind of an interesting parallel 0:26:01.600 --> 0:26:04.760 where it's like you really aren't an artist. You didn't like, 0:26:04.960 --> 0:26:07.240 you didn't train, you didn't really want to be an artist, 0:26:07.280 --> 0:26:08.959 you kind of don't care about it that much, but 0:26:09.000 --> 0:26:11.439 like you could get a job doing it right. You 0:26:11.440 --> 0:26:13.720 can get a job like making an NFT and like 0:26:13.760 --> 0:26:16.199 maybe sell some and make a quick buck. I think 0:26:16.200 --> 0:26:17.560 there's a lot of people who kind of found their 0:26:17.560 --> 0:26:20.640 way into like content creation that was like a machine. 0:26:20.680 --> 0:26:22.000 It was like it kind of like, you. 0:26:22.000 --> 0:26:23.960 Know why we're all talking about AI a lot lately 0:26:24.119 --> 0:26:27.320 in this in this venue is like it became a 0:26:27.400 --> 0:26:30.480 very machine almost like a machine generated game, where it's 0:26:30.520 --> 0:26:32.320 like you write a headline that it will get clicks, 0:26:32.359 --> 0:26:34.640 and you put some content in the below it that's 0:26:34.680 --> 0:26:37.359 like feels like enough information to call it a story, 0:26:37.560 --> 0:26:40.840 and that's like what journalism is. There's actually a fair 0:26:41.000 --> 0:26:44.240 argument to say that there is a lot of bad journalism. 0:26:44.440 --> 0:26:48.119 It's just that what they're talking about isn't like is 0:26:48.160 --> 0:26:51.320 it the Daily Wire, and it isn't like the user 0:26:51.359 --> 0:26:56.440 generated content on BuzzFeed dot com. It's people who say 0:26:56.480 --> 0:26:58.080 things that are true that they don't want to hear 0:26:58.200 --> 0:26:59.520 or don't want anybody else to see. 0:27:00.000 --> 0:27:00.240 Basic. 0:27:00.359 --> 0:27:01.919 The other thing I wouldn't want to say is that 0:27:01.960 --> 0:27:03.639 it's not as though. I mean, the thing I still 0:27:03.640 --> 0:27:07.320 love about the Internet is that you can find incredible 0:27:07.359 --> 0:27:11.760 geniuses doing work that would otherwise never have been cover. 0:27:11.880 --> 0:27:14.560 It's not like citizens, I like, do I believe in 0:27:14.600 --> 0:27:19.800 citizen journalism like conceptually Circle twenty twelve, Jeff Jarvis talking 0:27:19.880 --> 0:27:22.280 about like said citizen journalism, No, but do I believe 0:27:22.280 --> 0:27:25.760 that there are like people there are incredibly talented writers, reporters, 0:27:26.119 --> 0:27:29.480 journalists out there who would not have access to audiences 0:27:29.480 --> 0:27:30.399 if it wasn't for the Internet. 0:27:30.480 --> 0:27:30.640 Yeah. 0:27:30.640 --> 0:27:32.600 Absolutely, I mean that those people are those. 0:27:32.480 --> 0:27:35.439 People one hundred percent. I mean, to be clear, we 0:27:35.480 --> 0:27:37.400 would not be having this conversation. I would have done 0:27:37.400 --> 0:27:39.920 nothing if it weren't for the fact. I mean I 0:27:40.200 --> 0:27:42.480 didn't go to as you as I think. You know, 0:27:42.560 --> 0:27:44.679 I barely even went to high school, but I definitely 0:27:44.680 --> 0:27:48.040 didn't go to to college for journalism. Like I didn't 0:27:48.080 --> 0:27:50.439 go to Jay's school and then leave and go intern 0:27:50.520 --> 0:27:52.359 at the New York Times. Like there used to be 0:27:52.400 --> 0:27:54.520 a way that people did this that was very linear, right, 0:27:54.560 --> 0:27:56.200 and it was a very closed circuit. 0:27:56.880 --> 0:27:57.359 For sure. 0:27:57.440 --> 0:27:59.720 The Internet has has I know that everybody talks about 0:27:59.720 --> 0:28:01.639 this is like kind of like bullshit, but I think it, 0:28:01.760 --> 0:28:04.719 I mean, these days, but it had leveled the playing 0:28:04.720 --> 0:28:09.840 field for if a person was eager and excited and good, yeah, 0:28:09.920 --> 0:28:12.439 and had any bit of talent, Like there was a 0:28:12.440 --> 0:28:14.520 place to go and go and do it and find 0:28:14.840 --> 0:28:17.720 like hone it, you know, and like I that's real 0:28:17.800 --> 0:28:20.720 and awesome. Yeah, And a lot of our best journalists, 0:28:20.720 --> 0:28:24.040 a lot of the best journalists working today it came 0:28:24.080 --> 0:28:27.200 from that sort of with those backgrounds, like not from 0:28:27.280 --> 0:28:28.320 straight from Jay school. 0:28:28.359 --> 0:28:32.600 You know, something that I believe, like incredibly strongly, like 0:28:32.680 --> 0:28:36.840 on a political levelist that there's all this incredible, unused, 0:28:36.920 --> 0:28:42.040 untapped talent, creative talent, creative genius intelligence out there in 0:28:42.080 --> 0:28:44.680 the world, in the US but around the world that 0:28:44.920 --> 0:28:49.040 is just ill served by the political economic systems that 0:28:49.040 --> 0:28:51.040 we have working right now. And the Internet at its 0:28:51.080 --> 0:28:53.720 best is a way to level that playing field and 0:28:53.760 --> 0:28:56.320 to like find outlets for those people, find ways for 0:28:56.360 --> 0:28:59.720 them to make use of their incredible genius that otherwise 0:28:59.760 --> 0:29:02.080 would and exist. And then the Internet, it's worse, is 0:29:02.120 --> 0:29:05.200 also like a way for very rich guys to like 0:29:05.280 --> 0:29:07.920 find those talents and then just exploit the hell out 0:29:07.920 --> 0:29:09.400 of the stuff they're creating. I mean, I think this 0:29:09.520 --> 0:29:12.800 about social media for real. It's like, what makes Facebook 0:29:12.880 --> 0:29:16.040 valuable is not the technology, what makes or Twitter or 0:29:16.080 --> 0:29:18.560 any or TikTok or anything. It's the people who are 0:29:18.600 --> 0:29:22.520 creating stuff that is engaging and entertaining and funny and 0:29:22.560 --> 0:29:25.200 weird for free for these social networks. 0:29:25.280 --> 0:29:25.360 Right. 0:29:25.640 --> 0:29:28.640 The drill the drills, Yeah, exactly right, And you know 0:29:28.680 --> 0:29:30.440 this is this is the thing that I think is 0:29:30.440 --> 0:29:33.200 worth thinking about as AI comes into being is the 0:29:33.240 --> 0:29:36.160 sort of sense that, like, you know, what is AI 0:29:36.240 --> 0:29:38.680 going to be used for? Because I think it has 0:29:38.720 --> 0:29:42.160 this possibility to give sort of production tool in the 0:29:42.200 --> 0:29:46.080 same way that you know, like electronic production music production 0:29:46.200 --> 0:29:48.520 tools gave access to all these kids in their bedrooms 0:29:48.560 --> 0:29:51.160 the ability to make beats and to make music and 0:29:51.360 --> 0:29:54.280 to create create stuff themselves without having to you know, 0:29:54.440 --> 0:29:56.680 pay one thousand dollars an hour for a studio or 0:29:56.720 --> 0:29:59.480 whatever and get that stuff together. Like, I see a 0:29:59.480 --> 0:30:02.000 lot of gender to AI that feels like, maybe not 0:30:02.080 --> 0:30:03.840 right now, but pretty soon, this is going to help 0:30:03.840 --> 0:30:06.360 people create things themselves, even if they don't really have 0:30:06.400 --> 0:30:09.200 access to these huge resources outside of it, right, And 0:30:09.200 --> 0:30:11.760 what frustrates me is that it sure seems like the 0:30:11.840 --> 0:30:14.680 business model that places like open ai are gunning for 0:30:14.840 --> 0:30:17.560 is instead of like, let's enable people who otherwise wouldn't 0:30:17.560 --> 0:30:21.520 be able to, you know, do these things, let's let's 0:30:21.560 --> 0:30:23.720 find ways to replace the people who are already doing 0:30:23.760 --> 0:30:26.320 these things with the shittier version that we can have 0:30:26.400 --> 0:30:28.080 the boss's control or whatever. 0:30:28.640 --> 0:30:31.440 Right, there's a lot there that I agree with and 0:30:31.480 --> 0:30:33.640 also to unpack. But I will say that it is 0:30:33.680 --> 0:30:36.560 interesting that. I mean, I don't want to get into 0:30:36.640 --> 0:30:40.280 a you know, capitalism or whatever. Capitalism isn't good or not. 0:30:41.240 --> 0:30:44.320 There's obviously some problems with it, but like there is 0:30:44.360 --> 0:30:48.160 that you know. The history of capitalism is like these 0:30:48.160 --> 0:30:52.320 like incredible innovations that are then like manipulated into like 0:30:52.400 --> 0:30:55.360 a massive business that then like needs a bunch of 0:30:55.400 --> 0:30:58.040 like worker bees to like go and do and it's 0:30:58.080 --> 0:31:00.720 like owned by a very small segment. Like the thing 0:31:00.720 --> 0:31:02.960 itself is owned by a very small segment of the population, 0:31:03.320 --> 0:31:06.240 but the actual work to make the thing is done 0:31:06.280 --> 0:31:07.840 by a much larger segment. 0:31:07.600 --> 0:31:08.200 Of the population. 0:31:08.240 --> 0:31:11.160 And it's usually grueling and shitty, and people are underpaid 0:31:11.160 --> 0:31:12.680 for it. And it's like is and that is like 0:31:12.720 --> 0:31:15.760 in some way, like a Facebook is, like you said, 0:31:15.840 --> 0:31:17.720 like all these people are Facebook or Twitter or whatever. 0:31:17.840 --> 0:31:20.080 Is like these amazing people create for it, like that's 0:31:20.120 --> 0:31:22.840 the engine of it or whatever. But it is, you know, 0:31:23.520 --> 0:31:27.120 over time turned into kind of like a just like 0:31:27.160 --> 0:31:29.280 it's a part of like a machine, Like those people 0:31:29.320 --> 0:31:32.600 are a part of a machine that drives commerce. Right, Yeah, 0:31:32.880 --> 0:31:34.480 I think that would be fine if the system of 0:31:34.520 --> 0:31:37.920 commerce that it was built on was actually made any 0:31:37.920 --> 0:31:41.120 fucking sense. But the system of commerce is built on 0:31:41.240 --> 0:31:44.120 is based on a mistake, like essentially a mistake about 0:31:44.120 --> 0:31:57.160 the value of people on the Internet. I think there's 0:31:57.160 --> 0:32:00.520 like a foundational fundamental flaw and like how we monetize 0:32:00.560 --> 0:32:02.520 content on the Internet. I've probably put this a million 0:32:02.600 --> 0:32:04.360 times and I don't have to go into my spiel here, 0:32:04.560 --> 0:32:08.440 but like the way that Google came up with monetizing 0:32:08.560 --> 0:32:11.200 search is the way that we basically monetize. 0:32:10.680 --> 0:32:14.800 Everything, and it is it's wrong. It just was wrong. 0:32:14.880 --> 0:32:16.360 It just was like they could do that at the 0:32:16.360 --> 0:32:18.280 time because that was all that was available to them, 0:32:18.320 --> 0:32:20.640 Like they had one notion of like could we make money, 0:32:20.640 --> 0:32:22.840 and like, well, this is a way, like a billboard 0:32:22.880 --> 0:32:25.400 on a road, Like that's one way to make money. 0:32:25.440 --> 0:32:27.280 Like you put a billboard up and some people drive 0:32:27.320 --> 0:32:29.880 past it, and you can sell space on the billboard. 0:32:29.880 --> 0:32:32.720 And sometimes people who drive past it will be like, hey, 0:32:33.320 --> 0:32:35.360 like yeah, I need a new car, Like I should 0:32:35.400 --> 0:32:38.040 go check out the fucking Audi that I you know, 0:32:38.120 --> 0:32:40.120 the sign I drove past. But like, out of the 0:32:40.160 --> 0:32:41.960 people who drive past it, most of them never go 0:32:42.080 --> 0:32:45.480 check out the Audi or whatever. But over time, there's 0:32:45.480 --> 0:32:48.280 some small value that can be extracted from that billboard. 0:32:48.480 --> 0:32:51.160 And that's but that's the entire business model of the Internet, 0:32:51.440 --> 0:32:54.480 is that every single thing on it is like as 0:32:54.520 --> 0:32:55.520 devalued as. 0:32:55.400 --> 0:32:56.680 Like a billboard or whatever. 0:32:56.920 --> 0:32:59.480 Like anyhow, I mean it's not the perfect analogy, but 0:32:59.480 --> 0:33:00.760 you know what I'm saying, So. 0:33:01.320 --> 0:33:01.840 But it doesn't. 0:33:01.880 --> 0:33:03.280 I mean, part of it too, is that it means 0:33:03.280 --> 0:33:05.960 that when you're doing creative work, like you are also 0:33:06.360 --> 0:33:08.960 having to think about how you're like you yourself are also 0:33:09.000 --> 0:33:11.479 a billboard. And so like I like my job, I 0:33:11.560 --> 0:33:13.280 like my life. I like what I do on substeck, 0:33:13.360 --> 0:33:16.160 but like part of what I have to be part 0:33:16.160 --> 0:33:17.840 of what my subtect is and like part of what 0:33:17.880 --> 0:33:20.480 I have to do as a writer who isn't currently 0:33:20.600 --> 0:33:23.720 have W two employment is sort of be my own 0:33:23.800 --> 0:33:27.040 marketing team across a bunch of different platforms so that 0:33:27.080 --> 0:33:28.920 people know they can hire me, people know they can 0:33:28.920 --> 0:33:29.280 find me. 0:33:29.600 --> 0:33:29.800 Right. 0:33:29.840 --> 0:33:32.080 It's the hustle, yeah, and it's it's not a great 0:33:32.120 --> 0:33:33.840 way to live. And the thing that but the thing 0:33:33.840 --> 0:33:35.360 that really I think is a problem with it is 0:33:35.400 --> 0:33:37.200 that we know, for a fact there are a lot 0:33:37.200 --> 0:33:39.200 of writers who are more talented than me, who are 0:33:39.200 --> 0:33:43.640 better than me at all the things I do. For instance, well, 0:33:43.640 --> 0:33:46.640 who don't want to let's without naming names. I don't 0:33:46.640 --> 0:33:48.840 want to be part of that that hustle who are 0:33:48.840 --> 0:33:53.080 not interested in that. Like, No, I'm talking about the opposite. 0:33:53.080 --> 0:33:55.000 I'm talking about somebody who is not good at this 0:33:55.080 --> 0:33:57.120 kind of this kind of thing, who doesn't want to 0:33:57.160 --> 0:34:00.520 do it. Yes, there's like very few ways for that person. Yeah, 0:34:00.520 --> 0:34:02.600 they're very few ways for that person to be compensated 0:34:02.640 --> 0:34:05.440 for work they do. Whereas you have people who are 0:34:05.600 --> 0:34:07.720 who are incredibly good at the hustle part of it, 0:34:08.080 --> 0:34:10.640 again not naming, incredibly good to the hustle part of it, 0:34:11.000 --> 0:34:13.360 not not particularly intelligent or whatever. 0:34:13.360 --> 0:34:15.760 Writer. I think that's what we're talking about. 0:34:15.880 --> 0:34:18.360 I mean, we can all imagine in our heads somebody 0:34:18.400 --> 0:34:23.240 who fits these gat and say, for exactly, for example, 0:34:23.320 --> 0:34:25.040 they're they're ubiquitous. 0:34:24.560 --> 0:34:26.920 I'm intelligent, but good at the hustle. I'm thinking, actually, 0:34:26.920 --> 0:34:27.480 they shake. 0:34:27.320 --> 0:34:29.360 The right hands, they put themselves in the right names. 0:34:29.719 --> 0:34:32.360 It's one reason why the internet can make you so 0:34:32.480 --> 0:34:35.560 mad when you go online these days, Like the reward 0:34:35.640 --> 0:34:37.880 is market Like you get much better rewarded for marketing 0:34:37.920 --> 0:34:39.240 than you do for quality. 0:34:39.160 --> 0:34:41.840 Right, of course no, yes, I mean and and and 0:34:41.920 --> 0:34:44.279 if you're bad at or don't like or feel like 0:34:44.320 --> 0:34:47.000 you know, some people like if you're from generation acts 0:34:47.040 --> 0:34:49.080 like myself, you're not gen X. 0:34:49.040 --> 0:34:50.000 Are you? You're a millennial? 0:34:50.040 --> 0:34:50.760 No, I'm a millennial. 0:34:50.840 --> 0:34:52.640 Yeah, if you're if you're like a gen X person, 0:34:52.640 --> 0:34:55.840 you you feel a kind of physical impulse to reject 0:34:56.239 --> 0:34:58.839 self promotion. And now, I don't know, maybe people would 0:34:58.840 --> 0:35:00.960 say that I don't. I haven't jected self promotion. I'm 0:35:00.960 --> 0:35:02.520 not really sure, but I would tell you I would. 0:35:02.560 --> 0:35:04.160 I think if you ask Lyra and Jenn f I 0:35:04.239 --> 0:35:06.680 am promoting this podcast enough, I think that they would 0:35:06.719 --> 0:35:08.000 tell you that. 0:35:08.000 --> 0:35:10.640 I am not. And they wish I was hustling. They 0:35:10.640 --> 0:35:12.440 wish I was hustling more. I don't know. I don't 0:35:12.440 --> 0:35:13.319 want to speak for them. 0:35:13.840 --> 0:35:17.440 All that said, you know, if you even are close 0:35:17.520 --> 0:35:21.560 to making a living at doing what you're doing, it's 0:35:21.600 --> 0:35:25.960 also fucking wild because you know your parents and your 0:35:26.040 --> 0:35:29.240 grandparents and certainly every generation that is, almost every generation 0:35:29.280 --> 0:35:34.040 that's come before us. This abstract thing that we are doing, 0:35:34.360 --> 0:35:37.040 this abstract I mean, it is fucking weird, like it 0:35:37.160 --> 0:35:40.120 is weird, like we are go on to this thing 0:35:40.280 --> 0:35:43.000 the screen, We go into the screen and then we 0:35:43.120 --> 0:35:46.000 do something that frankly we like. Probably for the most part, 0:35:46.040 --> 0:35:48.120 you probably like the writing that you're doing, right, You're 0:35:48.120 --> 0:35:50.120 not like, you don't wake up every day and you're like, 0:35:50.160 --> 0:35:51.239 I mean, I don't know, maybe you got to do 0:35:51.239 --> 0:35:52.480 the hustle, but you don't wake up every. 0:35:52.360 --> 0:35:54.200 I mean some weeks. Some weeks you're like, ah, do 0:35:54.239 --> 0:35:56.040 I really have to do this? But for the most part, yeah, 0:35:56.400 --> 0:35:57.120 it's good, right. 0:35:57.320 --> 0:36:00.000 And I mean, I'm sure there are many struggling YouTubers 0:36:00.000 --> 0:36:01.600 you feel the same way. But like, if you can 0:36:01.680 --> 0:36:03.359 even make if you I'm sorry, if you can even 0:36:03.400 --> 0:36:06.799 make one dime just shooting a video of yourself and 0:36:06.800 --> 0:36:08.960 put it on the internet, Like, it's kind of amazing 0:36:09.040 --> 0:36:13.200 because there was no period in history before this where 0:36:13.239 --> 0:36:15.560 such a thing was possible in really any venue. I mean, 0:36:15.680 --> 0:36:18.120 you couldn't just put a show on and have people 0:36:18.120 --> 0:36:20.920 come to your play or whatever. You couldn't just make 0:36:20.960 --> 0:36:23.360 a movie and put it in a theater. You couldn't 0:36:23.719 --> 0:36:26.360 just like write a newspaper and have it exist in 0:36:26.400 --> 0:36:28.839 front of people. So there is this amazing flip side, 0:36:28.880 --> 0:36:31.399 which is like all of this seems like there's fantasy here. 0:36:31.560 --> 0:36:33.960 Like I think if you were to go back fifty 0:36:34.040 --> 0:36:35.400 years and describe. 0:36:34.960 --> 0:36:36.879 This to somebody, they'd be like, it would just. 0:36:36.840 --> 0:36:40.560 Be sound like such a fantastic story, like such a 0:36:40.640 --> 0:36:43.400 total bit of fantasy. So there's a flip side to 0:36:43.440 --> 0:36:44.839 all of it, which is like, the internet's a sass 0:36:44.880 --> 0:36:47.200 pulling full of horrible people, and the people who own 0:36:47.239 --> 0:36:50.000 and control most parts of the Internet are tyrants who 0:36:50.080 --> 0:36:52.080 are working everybody to the bone and don't give us 0:36:52.120 --> 0:36:55.000 our fair shake. And the model, the monetization model the 0:36:55.000 --> 0:36:57.200 Internet is built on, it's a complete shit show that sucks, 0:36:57.760 --> 0:37:00.719 and it's broken at at its most fun a mental level. 0:37:00.840 --> 0:37:07.160 And yet there are more people creating interesting works of fiction, 0:37:07.320 --> 0:37:10.399 non fiction, art, non art, like journalism, whatever, than we've 0:37:10.400 --> 0:37:12.759 probably ever had in the history of the world. There's 0:37:12.760 --> 0:37:16.919 probably more like journalism being done than ever before. Yeah, 0:37:17.160 --> 0:37:18.560 am I crazy for saying that? 0:37:18.760 --> 0:37:20.120 No? I don't think so. I mean, I think it's 0:37:20.120 --> 0:37:22.680 a it's a I mean for me, the question is, 0:37:22.680 --> 0:37:25.880 how can we have that flowering of creativity and talent 0:37:26.000 --> 0:37:28.560 and intelligence, and how can we you know, like make 0:37:28.560 --> 0:37:32.240 sure that people are reaching their potentials without the layer 0:37:32.320 --> 0:37:35.880 of exploitation that seems that right now seems like integral 0:37:35.960 --> 0:37:39.080 to all this stuff, and I did like to This 0:37:39.160 --> 0:37:40.959 is something that I've been thinking about a lot lately, 0:37:41.000 --> 0:37:43.960 because so I'm in the Writer's Guild, the TV Writers 0:37:43.960 --> 0:37:46.319 Guild and we're on strike right now, or the TV 0:37:46.360 --> 0:37:48.399 and Film Writers Guild and we're on strike right now, 0:37:48.440 --> 0:37:52.120 and something that is a huge contrast between being a journalist, 0:37:52.160 --> 0:37:56.080 where you might have a workplace union but oftentimes in 0:37:56.120 --> 0:37:59.960 general you don't, versus being in a heavily unionized industry 0:38:00.080 --> 0:38:05.040 part of a pretty powerful union is seeing what can happen, 0:38:05.320 --> 0:38:08.920 how much better a job can be. When you have 0:38:09.040 --> 0:38:11.160 that kind of at least, you have a little bit 0:38:11.200 --> 0:38:13.880 of leverage against the exploitation that you're not completely at 0:38:13.880 --> 0:38:16.240 the whims of what the bosses want at any given moment. 0:38:16.239 --> 0:38:18.640 You're not completely like, am I going to have a 0:38:18.719 --> 0:38:20.200 job today? Am I going to have a job tomorrow? 0:38:20.200 --> 0:38:21.680 Am I going to make money from this thing I'm 0:38:21.680 --> 0:38:23.200 working on on? Spec? Am I not going to make 0:38:23.239 --> 0:38:23.799 money from it? 0:38:24.239 --> 0:38:24.520 Right? 0:38:25.320 --> 0:38:28.200 And I think Hollywood is a really interesting example of 0:38:28.200 --> 0:38:31.040 an industry that is a creative industry that produces a 0:38:31.160 --> 0:38:35.359 wide range of things from total shit to like you know, 0:38:35.680 --> 0:38:40.839 instances of surpassing genius that manages nonetheless to like adequately 0:38:41.080 --> 0:38:44.480 up until recently, adequately reward the creative people who work 0:38:44.520 --> 0:38:47.040 on it like and sometimes like more than just rewards, 0:38:47.040 --> 0:38:49.600 sometimes make them extremely rich because they they did a 0:38:49.600 --> 0:38:51.520 really good job at whatever it is you're supposed to 0:38:51.520 --> 0:38:53.440 do it. And I think that like to you know, 0:38:53.600 --> 0:38:55.840 I'm not saying like, I don't know how a content creators. 0:38:55.880 --> 0:38:58.120 I'm not suggesting that content creators unionized, though I would 0:38:58.160 --> 0:38:59.479 love to. I would think it would be great. 0:38:59.480 --> 0:39:03.040 Imagine if like everybody in YouTube unionized, like you. 0:39:02.960 --> 0:39:06.040 Know, there's like the German German vloggers have been trying 0:39:06.080 --> 0:39:08.959 to do this for years now, and in fact, they're 0:39:09.400 --> 0:39:12.200 unionizing under the steel workers union in Germany, I guess 0:39:12.280 --> 0:39:14.920 is extremely powerful. It's maybe the biggest union there, and 0:39:14.960 --> 0:39:19.080 so they've got a special like YouTube content creators organizing 0:39:19.360 --> 0:39:20.480 like group that they're. 0:39:20.320 --> 0:39:22.160 Trying to I like, I really like the idea of 0:39:22.200 --> 0:39:25.640 like steel workers and YouTubers like you know, together, that's 0:39:25.719 --> 0:39:28.520 like very I don't know that sounds. 0:39:28.239 --> 0:39:30.319 Right if I might be remembering this wrong, but I'm 0:39:30.320 --> 0:39:32.279 pretty sure the guy behind it is this German guy 0:39:32.280 --> 0:39:34.040 who does videos of where he like builds his own 0:39:34.120 --> 0:39:36.400 catapults and just like it's the most YouTube thing. But 0:39:36.440 --> 0:39:39.080 also I think I like, right at the intersection of 0:39:39.120 --> 0:39:41.839 like steel workers YouTube and German, it's like the guy. 0:39:41.880 --> 0:39:43.359 It's like the guy who's like, I'm going to build 0:39:43.360 --> 0:39:45.960 a house from like just like this mud plane. I like, 0:39:46.000 --> 0:39:47.520 come here and I'm going to build like a mudhouse 0:39:47.600 --> 0:39:49.920 out of like lumber, I chop down and yeah, something 0:39:49.960 --> 0:39:52.439 like that. So, right, there is this huge strike going 0:39:52.480 --> 0:39:54.319 on right now. Of course, Hollywood is an industry that's 0:39:54.320 --> 0:39:57.000 been around a lot longer than the Internet, right, and 0:39:57.160 --> 0:40:01.120 has has gone through lots of situations where there's tremendous 0:40:01.160 --> 0:40:03.000 abuse of power by the people who are in charge 0:40:03.000 --> 0:40:06.000 of like the studios. I imagine there's still a tremendous 0:40:06.000 --> 0:40:08.080 abuse of power by the people who, yeah, the studios. 0:40:08.120 --> 0:40:10.839 But but yeah, of course people eventually were like, hey, 0:40:10.880 --> 0:40:13.480 we need to unionize. Of course, It's interesting the modern 0:40:13.800 --> 0:40:17.200 narrative about unions is is very confused. I think there's 0:40:17.239 --> 0:40:20.279 so much misinformation about about what unions are and what 0:40:20.320 --> 0:40:23.160 they do that it has really done its job of 0:40:23.200 --> 0:40:25.520 like making a lot of people very skeptical about the 0:40:25.560 --> 0:40:26.560 power of a union. 0:40:26.719 --> 0:40:29.200 Yeah. I mean, Hollywood unions all formed in the forties 0:40:29.239 --> 0:40:31.520 and fifties, when union density in the US was like 0:40:31.600 --> 0:40:33.400 three or four times what it is now. When you know, 0:40:33.440 --> 0:40:35.640 it was like pretty common to be in a union. 0:40:36.120 --> 0:40:38.800 There were like institutions that people knew, well, everybody knew 0:40:38.840 --> 0:40:40.640 at least one person or a family member who was 0:40:40.680 --> 0:40:43.040 in a union. So it wasn't crazy to be like, oh, yeah, 0:40:43.040 --> 0:40:44.040 we're going to form a writer. 0:40:43.920 --> 0:40:46.319 It wasn't a political thing that like, you know, I 0:40:46.320 --> 0:40:47.000 mean there was a wow. 0:40:47.080 --> 0:40:48.719 I mean, it depends on the you depends on the union. 0:40:48.960 --> 0:40:51.120 Like some of those you know, the writers in particular 0:40:51.160 --> 0:40:54.080 were and still are relatively left wing compared to the 0:40:54.080 --> 0:40:54.440 other right. 0:40:54.520 --> 0:40:57.680 But I mean, I mean, Hollywood is generally speaking not 0:40:57.880 --> 0:41:00.880 a I mean, I'm not saying there are no conservatives 0:41:00.920 --> 0:41:03.600 in Hollywood, but it is obviously the owners are all 0:41:03.760 --> 0:41:06.399 probably there's no question, but I mean, generally speaking, people 0:41:06.440 --> 0:41:09.960 in the creative arts tend to be more left leaning, 0:41:10.000 --> 0:41:12.879 more liberal than people in a non creative arts. I think, yeah, 0:41:12.880 --> 0:41:15.879 I think that's fair, and so unsurprisingly that the union 0:41:15.880 --> 0:41:18.480 would be you know, obviously very very liberal or i 0:41:18.480 --> 0:41:22.759 mean socialism, you know, is directly tied to lots of 0:41:22.920 --> 0:41:25.480 unions in their creation, and like the concept of a 0:41:25.600 --> 0:41:26.960 union of itself. 0:41:26.640 --> 0:41:29.600 Is like a very socialistic idea, although you know that 0:41:29.719 --> 0:41:31.560 being said, like if you go and you talk to 0:41:31.680 --> 0:41:34.359 like the camera operators who work shows in New York 0:41:34.400 --> 0:41:37.280 City who are all members of AATSI, and the teamsters 0:41:37.280 --> 0:41:39.279 who are part of the Stage Hands Union, which is 0:41:39.280 --> 0:41:41.799 one of the other big powerful Hollywood unions. Yeah, yeah, 0:41:41.800 --> 0:41:43.279 I'm not saying an even vote for Trump, but you're 0:41:43.280 --> 0:41:45.359 going to talk to guys who are very different set 0:41:45.440 --> 0:41:47.600 set up politics than I sew on union guys, guys 0:41:47.640 --> 0:41:49.959 who are showing us solidarity on the strike. But there's 0:41:50.000 --> 0:41:52.839 like a there is a wide range of political. 0:41:52.480 --> 0:41:54.560 You know, but you see how those cut across. 0:41:54.640 --> 0:41:58.279 There's a very blue collar, white collar interception there where 0:41:58.280 --> 0:42:00.400 you've got like like a camera operation or is a 0:42:00.480 --> 0:42:03.400 vary or like somebody who's doing set design or or 0:42:03.440 --> 0:42:05.040 like literally some of the labor. Like I remember when 0:42:05.080 --> 0:42:07.279 I used to go on on Fallon and like I 0:42:07.280 --> 0:42:09.080 remember once I tried to move a box like we 0:42:09.080 --> 0:42:11.040 were like setting up some like gadget or whatever, and 0:42:11.040 --> 0:42:13.080 they're like, you can't touch that, And I was like Okay, 0:42:13.080 --> 0:42:16.200 there's only the union. People who moved the boxes could 0:42:16.280 --> 0:42:18.480 touch the boxes. Like I it was like literally illegal 0:42:18.520 --> 0:42:20.799 for me to touch the box. But it's very blue 0:42:20.800 --> 0:42:22.919 collar work, you know, it's like not like sitting down 0:42:22.920 --> 0:42:25.919 at your think pad and writing, you know, the next 0:42:25.960 --> 0:42:26.760 episode of Lost. 0:42:26.760 --> 0:42:27.040 It's like. 0:42:27.320 --> 0:42:28.600 One of the things that, I mean, one of the 0:42:28.600 --> 0:42:31.560 things that has been very inspiring and has made me 0:42:31.600 --> 0:42:34.080 feel really optimistic and positive about the strike wear on 0:42:34.200 --> 0:42:37.200 right now is the extent of the solidarity shown by 0:42:37.239 --> 0:42:39.600 the teamsters to the Writer's Guild so that we've managed 0:42:39.640 --> 0:42:41.600 especially it's supposed to work. Yeah, I mean, the idea 0:42:41.680 --> 0:42:44.520 is that everybody that there's a there's solidarity between unions 0:42:44.560 --> 0:42:47.920 because everybody understands the basic dynamic. And that hasn't always 0:42:47.920 --> 0:42:50.040 been the case. You know, the last strike writers went 0:42:50.080 --> 0:42:51.799 on with two thousand and eight. A lot of this 0:42:51.920 --> 0:42:55.040 is sort of like anecdotes, and but people said, you know, 0:42:55.280 --> 0:42:57.520 back then, people didn't think the writers need to go 0:42:57.560 --> 0:43:00.560 on strike. You know, teamsters were worried about missing there hours. 0:43:00.600 --> 0:43:03.000 You know, they're not productions are getting shut down. In 0:43:03.000 --> 0:43:05.000 a lot of cases, they're not getting paid. So they 0:43:05.000 --> 0:43:07.120 would break picket lines, they would they would walk through, 0:43:07.120 --> 0:43:08.880 they would try to keep working, try to get paid, 0:43:09.040 --> 0:43:11.600 and that just has it's been a total change from 0:43:11.640 --> 0:43:14.480 that for this most recent one, which you can attribute 0:43:14.480 --> 0:43:16.040 to a million things, you know, like one of it 0:43:16.080 --> 0:43:18.200 and is just I think, like you were saying, we've 0:43:18.200 --> 0:43:20.279 gone from a real low ebb of unions to like 0:43:20.360 --> 0:43:22.920 the sparks. We're not yet in a place where unions 0:43:22.960 --> 0:43:24.759 are like have the same kind of density that they 0:43:24.840 --> 0:43:27.120 used to, but we've gone from a low ebb to 0:43:27.400 --> 0:43:29.759 there's you know, there's a changes coming, I think, And 0:43:29.800 --> 0:43:32.400 so I think people are more positive in general that 0:43:32.520 --> 0:43:33.560 we're learning more. 0:43:33.760 --> 0:43:34.400 I agree. 0:43:34.560 --> 0:43:38.479 I think people maybe are starting to realize and maybe 0:43:38.480 --> 0:43:40.759 the internet is we can thank the internet for some 0:43:40.800 --> 0:43:44.040 of this, just of being able to visualize what happens 0:43:44.440 --> 0:43:48.160 in non union environments and like going, hey, wait a second, like, yeah, 0:43:48.160 --> 0:43:50.799 it makes sense that we have some leverage because if 0:43:50.800 --> 0:43:52.959 you're not in a union, your leverage is basically niil 0:43:53.440 --> 0:43:55.600 with the business. And by the way, have you been picketing? 0:43:55.640 --> 0:43:57.400 Are you out there? Like have you you out there 0:43:57.400 --> 0:43:57.560 with this? 0:43:57.719 --> 0:43:57.919 Yeah? 0:43:58.160 --> 0:43:59.880 I pick I haven't picketed this week, but I was 0:44:00.000 --> 0:44:01.240 getting last week in the week before. 0:44:01.400 --> 0:44:03.320 Are there shifts. Are people doing shifts on picking? 0:44:03.760 --> 0:44:05.880 Yeah, so they've got big shifts that they announced the 0:44:05.960 --> 0:44:08.439 day before. Like right now, upfronts, which are the big 0:44:08.480 --> 0:44:10.719 ad sales events that the networks I'll put on, are 0:44:10.719 --> 0:44:13.120 going on. So there's pickets outside all the upfronts. You know, 0:44:13.600 --> 0:44:15.399 usually they bring on the actors for the big fall 0:44:15.480 --> 0:44:18.480 shows or whatever. Actors, like the teamsters have been showing 0:44:18.480 --> 0:44:20.359 a ton of solidarity with the writers. Most of them 0:44:20.360 --> 0:44:22.799 have refused to cross. So it's like, you know, a 0:44:22.880 --> 0:44:25.880 couple of nightly news anchors though even even some of 0:44:25.920 --> 0:44:28.719 the news anchors refused to cross too. I hear so 0:44:28.960 --> 0:44:31.520 oh really, yeah, so there's like that's interesting. Yeah, Lester 0:44:31.560 --> 0:44:34.200 hole he won't cross crossing or he isn't. Both refused 0:44:34.200 --> 0:44:34.560 to cross. 0:44:34.640 --> 0:44:35.000 That's cool. 0:44:35.440 --> 0:44:38.400 Andrew Ross Sorkin of The Times and CNBC did cross. 0:44:38.480 --> 0:44:40.600 Oh wow, Andrew not cool. 0:44:40.600 --> 0:44:41.920 Stephanie rule of MSNBC. 0:44:42.000 --> 0:44:45.640 Stephanie rule cross She definitely crossed crossed. Yeah, okay, who 0:44:45.640 --> 0:44:47.280 else anybody else? That's his is juiciest. 0:44:47.360 --> 0:44:48.320 Seacrest crossed. 0:44:48.520 --> 0:44:50.440 Seacrest crossed. Yeah. What's going on with Fallon? 0:44:50.480 --> 0:44:52.520 I saw there's some He came on Blue Sky, he 0:44:52.600 --> 0:44:55.279 joined Blue sky and people were like fucking hazing him. 0:44:55.640 --> 0:44:57.719 I felt bad for the guy, to be honest, It's like, 0:44:57.840 --> 0:44:59.400 I mean, I know you shouldn't feel too bad, but I. 0:44:59.400 --> 0:45:01.880 Mean, the thing the show is, it's always complicated because 0:45:02.360 --> 0:45:04.080 you know, you don't want to cross the pivot line. 0:45:04.080 --> 0:45:05.960 But if you're doing a nightly if you're doing a 0:45:06.040 --> 0:45:08.040 nightly talk show, like you've got a huge number of 0:45:08.080 --> 0:45:10.520 people who are that's their living, but you can shut 0:45:10.520 --> 0:45:11.920 it down for two weeks, but at some point you 0:45:11.960 --> 0:45:25.279 have to go back to work. Yeah, I think this 0:45:25.320 --> 0:45:26.600 one's going to last a long time, and so I 0:45:26.640 --> 0:45:28.319 would expect most of the talk show hosts to go 0:45:28.360 --> 0:45:31.600 back on without writers and have to do something similar. Though. 0:45:32.239 --> 0:45:33.440 I mean, we'll see, Like I don't. 0:45:33.640 --> 0:45:36.200 I've got Ai that's to spin up chat GBT to 0:45:36.239 --> 0:45:37.960 do some bits. I mean, how hard can it be? 0:45:38.200 --> 0:45:38.359 Right? 0:45:38.840 --> 0:45:40.719 This is maybe this would be the first big test 0:45:40.760 --> 0:45:43.960 of whether chat GPT can replace human beings that creative 0:45:43.960 --> 0:45:44.239 and depth. 0:45:44.320 --> 0:45:47.120 I mean, this is one of the items in our negotiations. 0:45:47.160 --> 0:45:49.359 It's very important to us because I mean, I think 0:45:49.400 --> 0:45:51.160 one thing that one way to think about all this, 0:45:51.560 --> 0:45:53.279 you know, just to connect it to us talking about 0:45:53.360 --> 0:45:56.239 media before is like we lived through when we were 0:45:56.239 --> 0:45:59.040 talking about earlier on, we lived through a huge sea 0:45:59.160 --> 0:46:02.920 change in the way like journalism is just created and distributed, 0:46:03.160 --> 0:46:07.160 going from print to online. They just decimated the industry. 0:46:07.440 --> 0:46:09.840 That's not the same thing necessarily is what's happening with 0:46:09.880 --> 0:46:13.759 streaming versus studios, But there's a lot of similarities. And 0:46:13.800 --> 0:46:17.000 one of the similarities is just having these huge cash 0:46:17.080 --> 0:46:20.400 rich companies, tech companies like Netflix and Amazon and Apple 0:46:20.719 --> 0:46:23.360 come in and just kind of throw money around in 0:46:23.400 --> 0:46:25.279 a way that is very hard for people to say 0:46:25.280 --> 0:46:27.600 no to that kind of money, but often means also 0:46:27.880 --> 0:46:31.520 diminishing work protections, accepting deals that you wouldn't have otherwise accepted, 0:46:31.560 --> 0:46:33.040 of course, and now I think a lot of people 0:46:33.080 --> 0:46:35.279 are sort of looking around and saying, hold on, like 0:46:35.360 --> 0:46:38.520 what direction is this going in? And having lived through 0:46:38.520 --> 0:46:40.880 that as a journalist and seeing sort of what happened 0:46:40.880 --> 0:46:43.399 to journalism, I think it's very clear what happens when 0:46:43.440 --> 0:46:46.600 you allow yourself to sort of buy the line that like, oh, 0:46:46.680 --> 0:46:49.319 the technology has changed, so you have to accept that 0:46:49.360 --> 0:46:51.880 you just can't get paid as much anymore. And you 0:46:51.880 --> 0:46:55.360 know the other thing about that is that Hollywood actually 0:46:55.360 --> 0:46:57.239 is a great example of an industry that's gone two 0:46:57.280 --> 0:46:59.680 or three times now through major technological shifts and how 0:46:59.680 --> 0:47:02.560 stuff created and distributed. That these unions have lasted since 0:47:02.600 --> 0:47:06.759 before TV, they lasted before the VCR, before DVDs, And 0:47:06.840 --> 0:47:08.719 every time there's been one of these shifts, there has 0:47:08.800 --> 0:47:11.879 been almost like you could almost track it by the year, 0:47:11.960 --> 0:47:15.760 there's been a strike because every single time the studios 0:47:15.800 --> 0:47:17.879 trying and say, oh, well, stuff's changed, we just can't 0:47:17.880 --> 0:47:20.480 pay as much as we used to, and writers and 0:47:20.640 --> 0:47:24.239 actors and directors and stage hands tend to stand up 0:47:24.280 --> 0:47:26.720 and say, hold on, that's not what's going to happen. 0:47:26.840 --> 0:47:28.319 We're going to figure out a new system so that 0:47:28.360 --> 0:47:30.680 we get paid what we deserve to create the content 0:47:30.719 --> 0:47:33.360 that people want to see. And so at the end 0:47:33.400 --> 0:47:35.640 of the tunnel right now you can see a place 0:47:35.640 --> 0:47:40.080 where studios want to use AI to create content as 0:47:40.080 --> 0:47:41.960 a way to pay writers less, as a way to 0:47:42.000 --> 0:47:45.640 employ fewer writers. And it's really important to us to 0:47:45.680 --> 0:47:48.440 stand up and say hold on, Like, for example, if 0:47:48.440 --> 0:47:52.160 you come up with a idea for a story via chat, 0:47:52.200 --> 0:47:56.480 GPT or whatever sophisticated Hollywood AI system. I'm sure Netflix 0:47:56.520 --> 0:47:59.680 is developing somewhere in a dark room and they're huge complex. 0:48:00.239 --> 0:48:02.480 You still have to pay the writer who takes that 0:48:02.560 --> 0:48:04.759 idea and turns it into a script the same rate 0:48:04.960 --> 0:48:07.200 that you would pay writer to write a script from 0:48:07.200 --> 0:48:09.080 a Wikipedia article or whatever. 0:48:09.200 --> 0:48:11.919 Up Right, I mean that just seems like a no brainer. Yeah, 0:48:11.960 --> 0:48:14.000 the work is the same exactly right. 0:48:14.120 --> 0:48:14.279 Yeah. 0:48:14.320 --> 0:48:16.160 And you know there's another thing where it's like most 0:48:16.200 --> 0:48:18.440 TV shows are written with writer's room, so you get 0:48:18.480 --> 0:48:21.120 ten smart, funny writers. I mean, this is like one 0:48:21.120 --> 0:48:22.799 of those things. I you know, because I started as 0:48:22.800 --> 0:48:24.960 a journalist and moved into TV writing, I'd never really 0:48:25.000 --> 0:48:27.160 experienced the TV writers' room. And now it's like, I 0:48:27.200 --> 0:48:29.279 wish every single thing I write I could write with 0:48:29.280 --> 0:48:30.880 the writer's room, to be able to sit down and 0:48:30.960 --> 0:48:33.279 sayle and be like, heep's great. Here's what we're trying 0:48:33.280 --> 0:48:36.560 to do. Let's get ten like extremely funny, smart people 0:48:36.600 --> 0:48:39.479 to like like just really work on it for five 0:48:39.560 --> 0:48:41.400 months and make it really good. And I think with 0:48:41.480 --> 0:48:43.840 studios they want to cut down the length of the 0:48:43.880 --> 0:48:45.480 writer's rooms. They want to cut down the number of 0:48:45.480 --> 0:48:47.759 writers that you have to hire because they have this 0:48:47.840 --> 0:48:50.040 idea in their heads. And you know, I don't think 0:48:50.040 --> 0:48:51.799 any of them have announced this specifically, but this is 0:48:51.800 --> 0:48:54.920 what everybody's sort of hearing. This is the chatter that 0:48:55.040 --> 0:48:58.080 you have one guy, you have your Damon Lindelow or 0:48:58.160 --> 0:49:02.360 JJ Abrams or Shonda Rhymes. They come up with the idea, 0:49:02.440 --> 0:49:06.240 and then your writer's room is chat GPT or AI 0:49:06.560 --> 0:49:08.920 or whatever else. And then not only does that make 0:49:09.000 --> 0:49:11.680 for worse content, but it's also that means that writers 0:49:11.680 --> 0:49:13.399 in general, when you want to have just one writer 0:49:13.560 --> 0:49:15.560 come in, you know, a human writer coming to punch 0:49:15.600 --> 0:49:18.719 it up, they're now not protected by the contract structures 0:49:18.760 --> 0:49:20.080 that previously existed. 0:49:20.360 --> 0:49:20.799 So all of a. 0:49:20.800 --> 0:49:22.960 Sudden, it's like, you know, there's all these things that 0:49:23.040 --> 0:49:25.400 the studios, there's ways to make it sound reasonable. Interestings 0:49:25.440 --> 0:49:27.040 like oh yeah, sure, why why do you need to 0:49:27.080 --> 0:49:28.840 have ten writers or whatever? And the answer is, and 0:49:29.000 --> 0:49:31.279 not every show needs to have ten writers. But if 0:49:31.280 --> 0:49:34.640 you don't guarantee that every show has ten writers, then 0:49:34.640 --> 0:49:36.120 all of a sudden, all the shows that really do 0:49:36.200 --> 0:49:38.640 need ten writers suddenly won't get right because the studios 0:49:38.640 --> 0:49:39.879 don't want to pay for it. They're going to point 0:49:39.880 --> 0:49:42.080 to the guy who just needed himself, like Mike White, 0:49:42.080 --> 0:49:43.840 who wrote all of White Lotus by himself and say, well, 0:49:43.880 --> 0:49:44.400 Mike White did it. 0:49:44.440 --> 0:49:46.720 Why can't you use a good point? That's a great point. Actually, 0:49:46.719 --> 0:49:48.120 come on, why not? Why can't you just come in. 0:49:48.239 --> 0:49:51.000 The right exactly? And then you have guys who really 0:49:51.040 --> 0:49:53.000 can't doing ten episode seasons, you're going to get a 0:49:53.040 --> 0:49:54.439 lot more, a lot worse TV. 0:49:54.960 --> 0:49:55.280 Well. 0:49:55.360 --> 0:49:57.640 I mean, it's interesting how it mirrors a lot of 0:49:57.680 --> 0:50:00.520 the rest of what's going on in reality, Like there 0:50:00.560 --> 0:50:04.319 is this pursuit of like massive growth and production, and 0:50:04.400 --> 0:50:06.200 like in some way, I feel like we're starting to 0:50:06.239 --> 0:50:09.160 see the limits of like the content mill. Like I 0:50:09.200 --> 0:50:11.960 feel like with the streaming services, like there's just too 0:50:12.000 --> 0:50:15.000 fucking much. Like like we know that people are starting 0:50:15.000 --> 0:50:17.040 to watch less. We know that there's like an attention 0:50:17.239 --> 0:50:19.799 sort of drift happening. I mean, I don't know about you, 0:50:19.880 --> 0:50:22.520 but I feel like the Sunday night appointment viewing thing 0:50:22.520 --> 0:50:24.520 has come back into focus in a big way around 0:50:24.560 --> 0:50:27.000 the stuff that HBO is doing and some other shows 0:50:27.040 --> 0:50:29.520 like stuff like Yellowjackets, where people are like it really 0:50:29.560 --> 0:50:31.440 is week to week, like talking about there's like a 0:50:31.480 --> 0:50:34.719 discourse about a show, not about the million things that 0:50:34.760 --> 0:50:36.799 you could possibly watching. I mean, I think it is 0:50:36.840 --> 0:50:40.120 that pursuit of that scale is a very is a 0:50:40.200 --> 0:50:44.719 very tech market based fucking thinking on like all of 0:50:44.760 --> 0:50:46.480 this can be bigger and there can be more of it, 0:50:46.520 --> 0:50:48.080 and we can just pump this out, and like AI 0:50:48.280 --> 0:50:50.440 is a solve I mean, yes, the soul for like 0:50:50.480 --> 0:50:51.600 having to do Oh I don't want to deal with 0:50:51.600 --> 0:50:53.120 these fucking creatives or I don't want to room with 0:50:53.160 --> 0:50:53.560 ten people. 0:50:53.600 --> 0:50:54.239 I want one guy. 0:50:54.520 --> 0:50:57.040 But it's also like a solve for scale, right, You're like, oh, 0:50:57.080 --> 0:50:59.120 I can just pump this shit out and I can 0:50:59.160 --> 0:51:01.200 hone it and refine it to what the audience wants 0:51:01.239 --> 0:51:04.000 and it'll be this perfect marriage of like no cost 0:51:04.040 --> 0:51:07.600 production and content that people love, and like we'll just 0:51:07.640 --> 0:51:10.400 make all the money for ourselves. I want to believe 0:51:11.120 --> 0:51:14.360 there's some impossibility there. I want to believe that there's something. 0:51:14.440 --> 0:51:18.319 I think we're all convinced there's some fear lingering out there, 0:51:18.840 --> 0:51:21.520 this AI fear, you know, and listen, I see it 0:51:21.520 --> 0:51:23.360 in art, like, I mean, the stuff that mid Journey 0:51:23.400 --> 0:51:24.160 does is crazy. 0:51:24.440 --> 0:51:25.520 Like I put out a song. 0:51:25.360 --> 0:51:26.880 The other day and I had mid Journey do the 0:51:26.960 --> 0:51:28.560 art for it, and it is like as good as 0:51:28.600 --> 0:51:30.799 any maybe better than any piece of art I could 0:51:30.800 --> 0:51:33.160 have gotten from another person because it did exactly what 0:51:33.200 --> 0:51:35.600 I wanted, exactly what I was trying to get it 0:51:35.640 --> 0:51:38.239 to do. And that's scary. That's going to cost people jobs. 0:51:38.239 --> 0:51:40.560 There's no question it already is costing people jobs. Like 0:51:40.600 --> 0:51:42.239 I see it all over the place, Like I see 0:51:42.239 --> 0:51:45.400 it on articles on news stories all the time, right 0:51:45.400 --> 0:51:48.399 where the content was devalued. So also has the art 0:51:48.600 --> 0:51:49.720 content been devalued. 0:51:49.760 --> 0:51:50.240 Go figure. 0:51:51.080 --> 0:51:53.000 I want to believe that there's going to be a 0:51:53.040 --> 0:51:56.120 point and maybe I'm wrong, And frankly, I don't know 0:51:56.120 --> 0:51:59.439 if I'm right. That the capability of the AI won't 0:51:59.480 --> 0:52:01.760 be as as we think it will be to deliver 0:52:01.800 --> 0:52:03.560 the thing that we think it can deliver. Like I 0:52:03.560 --> 0:52:06.279 feel like in technology and in life in some way, 0:52:06.520 --> 0:52:10.279 we're always looking for this magic single solution that you 0:52:10.360 --> 0:52:13.520 put the thing the input into and the output is 0:52:13.560 --> 0:52:16.680 your solve, right like, and I think that this happens 0:52:16.719 --> 0:52:19.080 all the time. I think pivot to video is one 0:52:19.120 --> 0:52:21.640 of these things, right Or like newsletters is one of 0:52:21.640 --> 0:52:23.719 those things. Not a knock on your thing, but it's 0:52:23.760 --> 0:52:27.360 like this is it. Yeah, we found the solution to 0:52:27.480 --> 0:52:30.399 the problem here, and if we just put that all 0:52:30.440 --> 0:52:31.480 the our bets on that thing. 0:52:31.520 --> 0:52:32.960 It's going to fix it. And like, I think AI 0:52:33.040 --> 0:52:33.879 has a lot of like. 0:52:33.800 --> 0:52:36.799 Promise and obviously a lot of potential danger, but is 0:52:36.840 --> 0:52:38.960 it really like can it really do the things? Is 0:52:39.000 --> 0:52:41.160 there an AI that will be Mike White before Mike 0:52:41.200 --> 0:52:41.840 White exists? 0:52:41.840 --> 0:52:41.920 Like? 0:52:42.000 --> 0:52:44.799 Yeah, can AI do the White lotus? Just because it's 0:52:44.840 --> 0:52:47.640 able to synthesize what has come before it? Yeah, and 0:52:47.719 --> 0:52:51.400 spit something out even if it's of some quality. Have 0:52:51.480 --> 0:52:55.560 we underestimated the randomness of the human mind? Like I 0:52:55.600 --> 0:52:57.640 think then, I think we have a little bit to 0:52:57.640 --> 0:52:58.080 be honest. 0:52:58.120 --> 0:53:00.640 You can almost talk about this in purely technical terms 0:53:00.680 --> 0:53:03.759 right where it's like we've seen these incredible especially large 0:53:03.840 --> 0:53:06.200 language models have advanced by leaps and pounds just by 0:53:06.280 --> 0:53:09.640 throwing power to them, basically, But it doesn't follow from 0:53:09.640 --> 0:53:13.440 that that just by continuing to add more computers, you know, 0:53:13.520 --> 0:53:16.600 more chips, more more power behind those lms, that we're 0:53:16.600 --> 0:53:18.640 going to get to you know, maybe we can get 0:53:18.640 --> 0:53:21.400 to ninety percent of human capability or whatever, and maybe 0:53:21.400 --> 0:53:24.040 for a lot of applications that's good enough. Ninety percent 0:53:24.120 --> 0:53:27.600 is fine, and even maybe for television, But that last 0:53:27.600 --> 0:53:31.000 ten percent, like the ten percent that is memorable and 0:53:31.120 --> 0:53:35.319 meaningful and original and new we may never ever reach that, 0:53:35.360 --> 0:53:36.400 we may not ever get. 0:53:36.200 --> 0:53:36.719 There or whatever. 0:53:36.840 --> 0:53:38.440 Yeah, I think that because I think the other the 0:53:38.440 --> 0:53:41.000 flip side of the sort of dynamic you're describing is 0:53:41.719 --> 0:53:43.719 and I can't remember who I feel like there was 0:53:43.800 --> 0:53:46.719 an old Wired article that first kind of articulated this 0:53:46.800 --> 0:53:49.480 idea that like the one of the things the Internet 0:53:49.480 --> 0:53:52.400 has done is sort of allowed the rain of the 0:53:52.440 --> 0:53:55.320 good enough. That there's just like once you realize you 0:53:55.320 --> 0:53:57.759 can kind of penetrate into what people are actually accessing 0:53:57.800 --> 0:53:59.600 and seeing and doing whatever else, that you realize that, 0:53:59.680 --> 0:54:01.960 like you don't have to make everything perfect. You can 0:54:02.040 --> 0:54:04.080 just make stuff good enough and people will consume it 0:54:04.120 --> 0:54:06.960 in vast quantities. In some ways, that's incredibly freeing as 0:54:06.960 --> 0:54:09.360 a creative that like you can allow stuff that wouldn't 0:54:09.360 --> 0:54:11.719 necessarily hit your standards out there into the world. But 0:54:11.719 --> 0:54:13.600 the flip side of it is that like if good 0:54:13.680 --> 0:54:17.080 enough is good enough, then like what's the motivation to 0:54:17.160 --> 0:54:20.200 take it to beyond good enough? Especially like on a 0:54:20.239 --> 0:54:22.520 corporate level where you're trying to press shareholders and make 0:54:22.560 --> 0:54:24.960 a profit whatever else, Like you don't get extra money 0:54:25.000 --> 0:54:28.360 by going from good enough to truly excellent. Like the 0:54:28.440 --> 0:54:30.799 dystopian fear about AI. I think I'm just sort of 0:54:30.800 --> 0:54:32.920 echoing what you're saying, is like maybe a I will 0:54:32.920 --> 0:54:34.840 never be able to write the White Lotus or Succession 0:54:34.880 --> 0:54:36.919 or whatever to your sopran Certainly not the Sopranos, whatever 0:54:36.960 --> 0:54:37.600 TV Shaw you love. 0:54:37.680 --> 0:54:39.960 Definitely not the Soprido, like you're like the other one. 0:54:40.000 --> 0:54:42.759 Well, the Sopranos to me is like that's part that's like, 0:54:42.880 --> 0:54:44.560 that's that's memorable, that's for it. 0:54:44.600 --> 0:54:47.080 I don't I don't disagree, But they'll be remaking it 0:54:47.080 --> 0:54:48.960 in like twenty years of the new cast or not 0:54:49.000 --> 0:54:50.440 even twenty years probably. 0:54:50.200 --> 0:54:52.919 Yeah, right, anyway that there's a million shows that would 0:54:52.960 --> 0:54:55.919 be fine to write with AI, and people might notice 0:54:55.920 --> 0:54:56.280 the difference. 0:54:56.320 --> 0:54:58.759 But maybe crazy atom maybe for instance. 0:54:58.440 --> 0:54:59.680 I mean, I don't want to again, I don't want 0:54:59.680 --> 0:55:01.080 I have to. I have to get a job when 0:55:01.080 --> 0:55:02.680 the strike is over. So I'm not going to say 0:55:02.680 --> 0:55:03.319 anything out loud. 0:55:03.400 --> 0:55:05.520 No, I've never watched Gray's Anatomy, so I wouldn't be 0:55:05.520 --> 0:55:05.960 able to tell you. 0:55:06.000 --> 0:55:08.200 But and I think, I mean, I think that's a 0:55:08.280 --> 0:55:09.880 legitimate fear. I mean the other part of it is 0:55:09.920 --> 0:55:14.120 I just think like, there's something about having things created 0:55:14.160 --> 0:55:16.440 by humans that I think is really important to the 0:55:16.480 --> 0:55:20.920 way we consume art and journalism and any other thing. 0:55:21.200 --> 0:55:23.640 To you, to a lot of people, it's not important 0:55:23.640 --> 0:55:23.799 at all. 0:55:23.840 --> 0:55:26.280 The same people who would happily read a user generate 0:55:26.320 --> 0:55:27.880 a piece of content on buzzfit. 0:55:27.680 --> 0:55:28.640 I don't know and enjoy it. 0:55:28.680 --> 0:55:30.759 I wonder like I do kind of. Jake Kang had 0:55:30.760 --> 0:55:32.000 this great line and a piece he wrote for The 0:55:32.000 --> 0:55:34.120 New York a few weeks ago where he said that, like, 0:55:34.440 --> 0:55:36.120 it's really important to him when he reads an article 0:55:36.200 --> 0:55:38.160 that he's getting angry at a human, like when you 0:55:38.239 --> 0:55:40.200 and Jay is like, as a writer, I love who 0:55:40.360 --> 0:55:41.879 who's Like one of the things he does is get 0:55:41.880 --> 0:55:42.400 really mad. 0:55:42.280 --> 0:55:44.840 At people, and he's mad online. 0:55:45.040 --> 0:55:47.319 Yeah, and the human component, like the fact that there's 0:55:47.320 --> 0:55:49.439 a human to be mad at, is important to him, 0:55:49.480 --> 0:55:51.080 the fact. And I think you can transperse that to 0:55:51.120 --> 0:55:53.480 all kinds of emotional states that you want to be. 0:55:54.120 --> 0:55:55.799 Let's say this is a hope more than like a 0:55:55.840 --> 0:55:57.880 thing that I absolutely know to be true. This is 0:55:58.000 --> 0:56:01.759 but it's something that I I hope with reason that 0:56:02.640 --> 0:56:05.600 people will feel some kind of difference between watching Let's 0:56:05.600 --> 0:56:09.280 pretend some far future AI could from a single prompt 0:56:09.360 --> 0:56:12.040 create a ten episode, not just the script, the whole thing. 0:56:12.440 --> 0:56:15.120 That there's a difference between watching that and watching something 0:56:15.160 --> 0:56:18.640 that somebody else made right even that, like, even there's 0:56:18.640 --> 0:56:20.759 a difference between you, Joshua, like I really want to 0:56:20.760 --> 0:56:24.960 watch a cyberpunk adaptation of whatever You type that into 0:56:25.440 --> 0:56:28.400 your TV generating AI and get it that there's a 0:56:28.400 --> 0:56:32.080 difference between that versus something that Mike White typed into 0:56:32.080 --> 0:56:34.400 his thing. I want to write a thing right that, 0:56:34.480 --> 0:56:37.120 even between those two uses of AI, there's a difference that, 0:56:37.480 --> 0:56:39.280 like so much of what we consume, there's this social 0:56:39.320 --> 0:56:41.680 basis to it that I think hasn't quite been worked 0:56:41.680 --> 0:56:44.000 out by places like Netflix. That there's that that they're 0:56:44.040 --> 0:56:46.719 betting on the other half, which is, like you say 0:56:46.760 --> 0:56:50.080 that if we can sufficiently allow the prompt to just 0:56:50.200 --> 0:56:53.080 solve all of these problems, then we're all set. But 0:56:53.320 --> 0:56:55.920 I mean, man, I've been so wrong as I try 0:56:55.960 --> 0:56:57.640 to get people to subscribe to my newsletter about the future. 0:56:57.680 --> 0:56:59.960 Let me just say, I'm so wrong all the time. 0:57:00.080 --> 0:57:01.040 But that's good to know. 0:57:01.520 --> 0:57:03.680 People love to read about a guy who's predicted in 0:57:03.680 --> 0:57:05.880 the future, but getting it wrong that's one of their favorite. 0:57:05.920 --> 0:57:07.560 Yeah. I mean, actually, that's it gives you a person 0:57:07.560 --> 0:57:08.280 to hate online. 0:57:08.320 --> 0:57:12.279 I feel just perhaps, I mean maybe what saves humanity 0:57:12.560 --> 0:57:14.120 is that we need to be mad online, but we 0:57:14.160 --> 0:57:18.600 need to be mad online at someone specifically. We can't 0:57:18.640 --> 0:57:20.880 just be mad online, Like being mad online at an 0:57:20.960 --> 0:57:25.000 AI feels like unproductive, right, just not enough, you know. 0:57:25.120 --> 0:57:27.960 That's that's that's really seizing the means of production, the 0:57:28.120 --> 0:57:28.960 productive anger. 0:57:29.080 --> 0:57:30.240 Yeah, all right. 0:57:30.160 --> 0:57:31.440 Yeah, we got to wrap up, Max. 0:57:31.480 --> 0:57:35.880 This was really great first off, not surprising, but really enjoyable. 0:57:35.880 --> 0:57:38.400 And I feel like there's about twenty things we didn't 0:57:38.400 --> 0:57:38.680 get to. 0:57:38.800 --> 0:57:39.120 I had. 0:57:39.160 --> 0:57:41.120 I know that during the time that you were talking, 0:57:41.440 --> 0:57:43.360 several times you were saying something, I'm like, I have 0:57:43.400 --> 0:57:46.480 a great, hilarious rebuttal to this, and I didn't get 0:57:46.480 --> 0:57:48.600 a chance to even get there because we got it 0:57:48.600 --> 0:57:50.240 to so many other things. So you got to come 0:57:50.240 --> 0:57:53.600 back and do this again. Yeah, and people can find you. 0:57:53.800 --> 0:57:55.640 You're not on Twitter. You don't You're not on Twitter. 0:57:56.000 --> 0:57:58.560 No, I'm on blue Sky now though I'm. 0:57:58.440 --> 0:58:00.600 Not really uhy, but nobody else is on blue Sky. 0:58:00.640 --> 0:58:02.200 So that's why you can't promote yourself. 0:58:02.280 --> 0:58:03.959 What is your name? On blue Sky. How come people 0:58:03.960 --> 0:58:04.280 find you? 0:58:04.560 --> 0:58:07.360 It's just it's max read dot info. It's my it's 0:58:07.400 --> 0:58:08.040 my personal. 0:58:07.840 --> 0:58:08.480 Lives at r O. 0:58:08.600 --> 0:58:09.640 That's great dot info. 0:58:09.960 --> 0:58:11.800 I'm also I'm also on blue Sky, I should say, 0:58:11.800 --> 0:58:13.240 because that's a cool thing to tell people. 0:58:13.320 --> 0:58:14.520 Josh, wait, Tibolski dot. 0:58:14.400 --> 0:58:18.080 Com is my this is my blue Sky day, which 0:58:18.120 --> 0:58:21.000 is great. You obviously have this great read Max newsletter 0:58:21.120 --> 0:58:22.680 that you can subscribe to. It's on substack. 0:58:23.520 --> 0:58:26.560 The U R L is Max read dot substack dot com. 0:58:26.600 --> 0:58:28.440 And my last name is spelled R E A D 0:58:28.640 --> 0:58:29.000 like a book. 0:58:29.040 --> 0:58:31.480 Yeah, we know how to spell read. Do people e 0:58:31.640 --> 0:58:32.560 on the end a lot of the time? 0:58:33.160 --> 0:58:35.400 This is this R E E D sometimes? 0:58:35.680 --> 0:58:37.919 Yeah, sure, I guess I don't think of that read 0:58:38.000 --> 0:58:40.800 at all. What else? Instagram? You don't do Instagram? 0:58:40.840 --> 0:58:41.400 Not really? 0:58:41.600 --> 0:58:45.720 You know, I'm a podcast No, but yeah, I think 0:58:45.720 --> 0:58:47.280 when the I when the higher ups that I heard 0:58:47.360 --> 0:58:48.880 here this, They're going to be like this guy. 0:58:48.920 --> 0:58:50.200 We got to get this guy on the air. 0:58:50.280 --> 0:58:51.440 One can only hope. 0:58:51.400 --> 0:58:54.440 Or a chat GBT equivalent of this guy. No. 0:58:54.600 --> 0:58:57.040 I invite people. I invite people to subscribe to the newsletter. 0:58:57.080 --> 0:58:59.480 It's free. I should mention there is a subscription fee. 0:58:59.480 --> 0:59:02.000 You can pay for it, but I write one free 0:59:02.080 --> 0:59:03.160 weekly column. 0:59:02.960 --> 0:59:05.480 So I think you can get that the Nemesis Sunglass 0:59:05.480 --> 0:59:07.360 Post for free. And I think that if you want 0:59:07.360 --> 0:59:09.400 to go a deeper dive on nemmesis you get that, 0:59:09.480 --> 0:59:10.439 you have to pay a few bucks. 0:59:10.520 --> 0:59:12.440 That's exactly right, and you will after you read the 0:59:12.480 --> 0:59:14.200 Sunglass post, you will want the deeper dive. 0:59:14.280 --> 0:59:15.960 I do think that's a big way to kind of 0:59:16.040 --> 0:59:17.920 dangle the subscription at people. 0:59:17.800 --> 0:59:18.320 To get that. 0:59:18.760 --> 0:59:20.960 That's a glass posts. Anyhow, it's a super fun Thank 0:59:21.040 --> 0:59:28.919 you for taking the time. Well, that is our show 0:59:28.960 --> 0:59:31.800 for this week. I think obviously I've I've concluded the 0:59:31.800 --> 0:59:34.840 conversation and now that I've had nothing left my all 0:59:34.880 --> 0:59:38.920 of my essence has been drained from me. That sounds disgusting, actually, 0:59:39.080 --> 0:59:42.080 but I go into a cryogenic chamber at the end 0:59:42.120 --> 0:59:44.240 of every show and I'm there until the next show, 0:59:44.440 --> 0:59:49.080 so I have to begin my long slumber. We'll be 0:59:49.080 --> 0:59:52.480 back next week with more what future, and as always, 0:59:52.520 --> 0:59:54.360 I wish you and your family the very best. 1:00:00.040 --> 1:00:00.280 Height