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Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to what Future.

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Speaker 2: I'm your host, Joshua Tapolski, and we have a Crackerjack

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Speaker 2: of a show. Do people still say that Crackerjack? Does

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Speaker 2: that even exist anymore?

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Speaker 1: Do you know?

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Speaker 2: Crackerjack's there like a candy, It's like a box. It's

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Speaker 2: a candy. It's a candy corn. No, no, candy. Corn

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Speaker 2: is a candy. It's like caramel corn or caramel corn

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Speaker 2: depending on who you talk to, which I guess is

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Speaker 2: corn covered in a sugary coating. And then in the

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Speaker 2: box it was like a red stripe box. Does this

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Speaker 2: even Does anybody know what I'm talking about?

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Speaker 1: Lyra or Jenna? Do you know what I'm talking about?

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Speaker 3: Of course I know what Crackerjack.

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Speaker 1: You know what Crackerjack is? Okay?

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Speaker 3: And I had a prize in the box, and.

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Speaker 2: At the bottom of the fucking box there'd be a prize,

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Speaker 2: like a toy or something.

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Speaker 1: That's great. They don't do that anymore. They don't do it.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they do.

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Speaker 2: They probably still sell it. It's probably very readily available.

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Speaker 2: It's probably one of the best selling products at grocery stores.

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Speaker 3: Heay, cracker Barrel, I bet you.

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Speaker 2: Cracker Barrel is a right wing establishment dedicated to the

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Speaker 2: suppression and oppression of many groups, and I can't stand

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Speaker 2: I won't stand for it. Although they do have really

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Speaker 2: good biscuits in my recollection.

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Speaker 3: But I would bet you good money that they sell

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Speaker 3: cracker jacks in the.

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Speaker 1: General store, crackerjack at the cracker barrel.

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Speaker 2: Probably you're probably right, An, Yeah, we have a crackerjack

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Speaker 2: show for you. We've got a wonderful man, Max Read,

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Speaker 2: a writer, an editor, a screenwriter, and also a friend,

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Speaker 2: I should say, a buddy, and he's got a great

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Speaker 2: newsletter called Read Max that I love. And we're going

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Speaker 2: to talk about all sorts of stuff. I don't want

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Speaker 2: to waste one minute, so let's get into this conversation.

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Speaker 2: You were editor in chief of Gawker when it was

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Speaker 2: suit out of existence?

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Speaker 1: Is that right?

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Speaker 4: The lawsuit was ongoing when I was editor. I left

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Speaker 4: in twenty fifteen. The following year spring, I want to

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Speaker 4: say the following year was when the judgment came down

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Speaker 4: and Gocker declared bankruptcy.

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Speaker 1: Who was the editor of Gawker at that time.

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Speaker 4: I think Alex Parene was the editor in chief. I thought, wow, yeah,

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Speaker 4: the last and final Yeah.

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Speaker 2: No, not the last and final of that Goker. There

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Speaker 2: were many other erbitions of Cocker.

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Speaker 4: They just transitioned. They became h what was it called.

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Speaker 1: Splinter, splinter, splinder splinter, but splinter was Splinter was owned

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Speaker 1: by that was? When? Was it owned by Fusion? Is

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Speaker 1: that was it?

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Speaker 3: Ye?

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Speaker 2: Fusion became I'm sorry, this is crazy shit to think about,

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Speaker 2: but like I know, Fusion was a thing that was

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Speaker 2: that existed. It was a new media startup. Correct me

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Speaker 2: if I'm wrong.

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Speaker 4: It was It was new media within Telemundo.

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Speaker 2: It was like Telemundo Star new Yes, start up, tell them.

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Speaker 2: Telemundo started a thing called Fusion dot net, which was

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Speaker 2: a a diverse millennial news operation, right that was sort

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Speaker 2: of like the overarching which like from like I get it,

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Speaker 2: like very of the moment, like very like Mashable, like

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Speaker 2: in the spectrum of like a Mashable and uh yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean who else who else would it have been?

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Speaker 2: I guess BuzzFeed News, Mike whatever, This is not Mike, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Mike's other perfect example. Actually, I would say in a

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Speaker 2: way Fusion was like a mic competitor. Probably is the

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Speaker 2: most most accurate. Anyhow, Sorry, this is not we don't

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Speaker 2: have to talk about this at all. In fact, I wasn't really

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Speaker 2: planning on talking about it, but although I do want

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Speaker 2: to talk about media because you are a member of

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Speaker 2: the media elite as we know, I don't know what

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Speaker 2: what is the word for a person who just has

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Speaker 2: a newsletter?

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Speaker 1: What do you call that?

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Speaker 4: I call myself an owner operator, a small business, small

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Speaker 4: business owner.

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Speaker 1: You're a small business owner.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so you get some some of Biden's tax break,

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Speaker 2: tax breaks for the one percent, for the elite. So

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Speaker 2: you're in the media, right, you'd say you're in the media,

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Speaker 2: like you continue you continue to publish content that is

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Speaker 2: in the sphere of news media.

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Speaker 4: Would you say, yeah, I mean, I I write twice

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Speaker 4: a week on my substack, do some freelance journalism still too.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's funny the fact that you sort of

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Speaker 4: we sort of started talking about this and then immediately

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Speaker 4: started remembering some websites. It's very hard. I started my

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Speaker 4: substack not really intending to write very much about media.

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Speaker 4: But if you have been in the business for long enough,

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Speaker 4: and especially if you lived through the period that we're

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Speaker 4: talking about, the twenty tens, the crazy twenty tens, it's

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Speaker 4: hard not to just keep writing about it. Because it

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Speaker 4: still sticks in your mind. I don't want to say trauma,

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Speaker 4: but you know it's.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, it's trauma. It's Trauma's the right word.

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I think the word trauma's overused, and I don't want

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Speaker 2: to say that people who use it don't have trauma.

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Speaker 2: But I do feel like people say trauma about things

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Speaker 2: that are like they like, you know, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: they've got they couldn't find a pair of shoes that fit,

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Speaker 2: and they're like, I have trauma from that. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I don't think that's what the word means. Like, I

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Speaker 2: feel like it might get a little overused. But because

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Speaker 2: I had a call earlier today, I was talking to

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Speaker 2: a reporter and we got into a conversation about the Messenger, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: which is a the messenger is like so you actually,

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Speaker 2: I said the boom period when you're talking about what

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Speaker 2: you're talking about fusion and stuff, but actually what fusion

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Speaker 2: is in that era, which is like ten late twenty tens.

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Speaker 2: I want to say, like, right, I don't know when

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Speaker 2: fusion started or that, like what the but I want

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Speaker 2: to say, like twenty ten, that's probably later than twenty ten, fourteen,

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Speaker 2: around thirteen fourteen. It's actually the beginning of the end

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Speaker 2: for the new media boom. It's like Vice had matured

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Speaker 2: into this monolithic thing, and BuzzFeed news was at least

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Speaker 2: rolling probably pretty successful at that point. It was sort

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Speaker 2: of like the beginning of the end for like the

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Speaker 2: boom era of like blogging, which would have been which

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Speaker 2: would have been in the you know, two thousand and

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Speaker 2: four to two. I mean, obviously stuff happened aslet's say

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Speaker 2: two thousand and four to two thousand and ten something

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Speaker 2: like that is like, yeah, the biggest like boom for

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Speaker 2: like blogging, blogging, not like corporate owned blogging.

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Speaker 4: Well, there was, I mean, the way I think about

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Speaker 4: it is always like there was that early period was

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Speaker 4: very people would still go to websites. You know, you

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Speaker 4: would actually go to ngadget dot com or goal dot

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Speaker 4: com and you you would refresh it to see the feed.

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Speaker 4: And then it was sort of SEO came along and

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Speaker 4: it allowed you to maintain a relatively similar format. But

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Speaker 4: the thing that really sort of turned like the when

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Speaker 4: Facebook arrived as like the thing that would give you

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Speaker 4: traffic around twenty twelve, and all of a sudden, everything

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Speaker 4: you wrote didn't matter what your website looked like, didn't

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Speaker 4: matter what your website was. Everything you wrote had to

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Speaker 4: sound like it could be shared on a social feed

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Speaker 4: or whatever.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 4: And that's when Fusion and all these that's when all

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Speaker 4: the VC money started really coming in and the big

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Speaker 4: corporate money.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a very dark period. I mean, I'm just trying

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Speaker 2: to think. I'm trying to think of it in personal

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Speaker 2: terms only because that's easier for me. My memory is

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Speaker 2: very bad, and so I have to go like, well,

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Speaker 2: what was I doing? What was I doing at that point?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: So, like, yeah, Gadget Crew left to start the Verge

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Speaker 2: in like twenty ten, I think maybe to early twenty eleven.

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Speaker 2: We launched the Verge in November of twenty eleven. I'm

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Speaker 2: pretty sure that sounds wrong, but I think it's actually

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Speaker 2: right anyhow, whatever, But that that to me is like

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Speaker 2: sort of the bit that's about when you used to

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Speaker 2: kickoff of the ends. It's not to be, not to

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Speaker 2: be you know, self centric or whatever. But like, I

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Speaker 2: think we were legitimately doing the blogging thing where we're like,

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Speaker 2: we're going to take our team and go do a thing.

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Speaker 2: And we went to a company that wasn't it was

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Speaker 2: VC back but it wasn't like it was an NBC

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Speaker 2: or whatever. It wasn't like Telemundo wasn't wasn't backing it

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Speaker 2: or whatever you're writing. You have a sub stack? Am

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Speaker 2: I allowed to say that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: A lot of times on the Internet somebody says substack.

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Speaker 2: That might put an asterisk in between the S and

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Speaker 2: the B because they don't know if Elon Musk is

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Speaker 2: going to block.

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Speaker 4: It for auditor. Yeah, well, just don't put it in

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Speaker 4: the title of this of this podcast.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk. We're gonna have to end.

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Speaker 2: As a note for Lyra and Jenna, please let's make

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Speaker 2: sure we don't add the word substack fully spelled out

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Speaker 2: in the title.

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Speaker 1: But you have a sub stack, which is a.

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Speaker 2: Is a company that has created a platform for people

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Speaker 2: to publish newsletters which look a lot like blog posts. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it just sought me at any point where if you

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Speaker 2: sound like this, if this sounds like this is wrong,

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Speaker 2: And also, you can charge people a subscription fee for

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Speaker 2: your newsletter and in doing so create a like a

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Speaker 2: personal media company, like a single person media brand.

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Speaker 1: And that's what you've done.

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Speaker 2: Now you have a thing called read Max which I

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Speaker 2: have to say, as far as titles goes very unoriginal

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Speaker 2: for you, but I guess pretty clever as well. Explain

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Speaker 2: to the listener, who I'm sure are all subscribers of

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Speaker 2: read Max. By the way I have, I think the

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Speaker 2: crossover is extremely high. But just explain to them, like

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Speaker 2: what your newsletter does.

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Speaker 4: The tagline is that it's a newsletter about the future.

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Speaker 1: Really, yeah, is that the tagline? Yeah? It is? Wow?

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Speaker 4: Okay interesting, you know I started it. It's funny. I

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Speaker 4: was thinking about this the other day. I started it

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Speaker 4: with this, with the sort of manifesto post that people

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Speaker 4: can still go back and look at where I said.

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Speaker 4: I wanted to write a lot about the way life

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Speaker 4: in the twenty percentury had been shaped by the mega

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Speaker 4: platforms of the Internet, the way that not just sort

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Speaker 4: of economics but also culture and social formations get worked

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Speaker 4: through your facebooks and your Instagrams and your tiktoks. But

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Speaker 4: as it happens, you know, my editorial philosophy has all

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Speaker 4: the sort of been that readers like to feel passion

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Speaker 4: and joy. I sound like I'm giving like an upfront's

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Speaker 4: presentation to sell the advertise.

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Speaker 1: I love that. I wish you had like a clicker

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Speaker 1: and some slides.

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Speaker 2: Exactly right, if you really could, you have a big

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Speaker 2: like a pie chart with some percentage of readers who

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Speaker 2: like the.

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Speaker 4: Readers love imagine I'm in like a black turtle.

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Speaker 2: There's like, yeah, it's like it's like seventy eight percent

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Speaker 2: of readers love to feel passion.

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Speaker 1: There's a small sliver that don't like passion anyhow.

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Speaker 4: So this is what happens when you spend any time

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Speaker 4: in editorial management, as you learn to talk like this.

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Speaker 4: That being said, yeah cliched, is it sounds It's like

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Speaker 4: not worth me finding something to say about tech every

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Speaker 4: week if it means that once a week is going

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Speaker 4: to be boring. So in practice, the tagline of newsletter

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Speaker 4: is a newsletter about the future. In practice, it's a

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Speaker 4: newsletter about things that I think are interesting, which includes AI,

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Speaker 4: includes crypto, includes you know, platforms like Facebook, includes media stuff.

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Speaker 4: Also includes action movies, sci fi movies. Yes, sort of

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Speaker 4: whatever is is interesting me at any given moment. So

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Speaker 4: it's hard to give the elevator pitch. But people who

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Speaker 4: are on the same wave link that I am, I

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Speaker 4: think like it because they because it gives them a

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Speaker 4: sort of weekly dose of interesting thinking about, you know,

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Speaker 4: whatever is going on in whatever things are interesting me

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Speaker 4: at that moment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think the most successful publications, whether

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Speaker 2: they're a person doing a newsletter or you know, lots

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Speaker 2: of people working on something, tend to be the ones

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Speaker 2: that center not around necessarily a very hard line of

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Speaker 2: specific topics, but a kind of philosophical through line. And

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Speaker 2: I mean, I agree with you, would be boring to

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Speaker 2: simply write about like whatever that description is supposed to

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Speaker 2: encapsulate or could encapsulate. It probably would be very boring

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Speaker 2: every week to hear about that. But you have you

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Speaker 2: do go pretty far afield. Yeah, Like I downloaded and

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Speaker 2: started watching this film Nemesis the other day, which I

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Speaker 2: definitely saw in my youth. I mean, you might have

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Speaker 2: written more than one occasion about the movie, but it's

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Speaker 2: not a good movie. I mean, to me, just for

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Speaker 2: starters time, I want to be very clear, it's not

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Speaker 2: like high art or anything. It is like it was

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Speaker 2: an early nineties. Yeah, like a cyber science fiction kind

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Speaker 2: of movie. It's like it's like there were a lot

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Speaker 2: of movies in the early nineties. Another one of them

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Speaker 2: is Hardware, which I'm sure you've seen I hope you've seen,

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Speaker 2: which originally was rated triple X very like for real,

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Speaker 2: like actually it was rated ACTS or triple X is

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Speaker 2: whatever they called it when it was you know, like,

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Speaker 2: but there's this kind of genre of film people who

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Speaker 2: like read Neuromancer and were like, that's cool, But I

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Speaker 2: don't really have much of a budget. What could I do?

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Speaker 2: Like if I like this like a cyberpunk idea, but

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Speaker 2: I don't really have the to go all the way.

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Speaker 2: And so Nemesis is what of the because you wrote

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Speaker 2: about but you actually did a post. I want to

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Speaker 2: say it was like a ranking of the sunglasses from Nemesis,

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Speaker 2: the cool sunglasses from Nemesis.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I felt so inspired after seeing that that.

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Speaker 2: I was like, I got to watch this movie again,

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Speaker 2: and so I h of course I went on the

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Speaker 2: Pirate Bay, which is still in existence, even though you

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Speaker 2: have to definitely get a computer.

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Speaker 1: Virus to access it. You absolutely have.

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Speaker 2: To get a computer virus to go to the Pirate

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Speaker 2: Bay and downloaded a you know, a HD like Blu

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Speaker 2: Ray rip of Nemesis.

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Speaker 4: Christine twenty one sixty.

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Speaker 1: You know, no, no, no, I can't be.

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Speaker 2: I can't be watching Nemesis in some seven twenty shit

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Speaker 2: like I need to see I need to see every

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Speaker 2: grain of sand in the extremely sandy atmosphere of the

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Speaker 2: film anyhow. But so so you're writing about like you

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Speaker 2: write about stuff that is definitely not the future. But

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Speaker 2: I am curious what is like in your mind? Like

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Speaker 2: when you say the future, what are things you've written

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Speaker 2: and talked about and are thinking about recently that would

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Speaker 2: fall into that category.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I'm not any different than anybody else who's

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Speaker 4: paying attention right now in thinking that, like AI is,

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Speaker 4: the is kind of the thing that we everybody is

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Speaker 4: talking about, and therefore becomes interesting just because it is

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Speaker 4: a thing that everybody's talking about. You know, I was

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Speaker 4: over the last couple of years, I would describe myself

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Speaker 4: as a cryptoskeptic, but I still found crypto as a

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Speaker 4: kind of like object of interest worth writing about and

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Speaker 4: thinking about, both as a reason to criticize it, but

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Speaker 4: also you know, the communities that arise around something like crypto,

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Speaker 4: the kind of like the art work I suppose, or

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Speaker 4: the cultural formation, if you want to call it that,

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Speaker 4: I mean, between Nemesis and Bordees. Clearly I have a

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Speaker 4: real fascination with bad art at something you're.

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Speaker 1: Interesting to me here.

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Speaker 2: I've often described the NFT boom as the Olympics of

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Speaker 2: bad art, which I would I think it's just like

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Speaker 2: an astounding quantity of just like the people competing for

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Speaker 2: the top slot and like the bad art. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: mean just some of the worst shit ever put into

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Speaker 2: it into humanity.

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Speaker 4: I mean, to any terrible. But isn't that But to me,

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Speaker 4: that's like it's sort of fascinating, Like there's something fascinating

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Speaker 4: about this, like weird grifter culture, like tacky grifter culture

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Speaker 4: emerging like billionaires.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what happens when you find out that like something

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Speaker 2: that could you could scam people out of money is art,

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Speaker 2: and like you can and it's like not art, like

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Speaker 2: I had need, I have a Picasso, Right, it's not

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Speaker 2: like not that that's a scam. That's a whole different

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Speaker 2: type of scam actually, but one that is real. But

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Speaker 2: but but yeah, like what it happens. I mean, that's

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Speaker 2: an interesting place to explore it, right, Yeah, I hear

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Speaker 2: what you're saying, Like and.

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Speaker 4: You know, like right now, all of the all of

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Speaker 4: that energy, all of that kind of like prenetic like

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Speaker 4: what's next, what's big? What's interesting energy is is plunged

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Speaker 4: into large language models and the AI scene in general.

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Speaker 4: And to me this is even more kind of fruitful

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Speaker 4: and interesting than crypto because the technology is much more

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Speaker 4: obviously impressive and like has applications you can think of

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Speaker 4: with out having to like, you know, get a lobotomy

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Speaker 4: and start talking like Mark andrieson or what.

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Speaker 2: About slurp juice to understand like what AI could do

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Speaker 2: for you?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know it Also it's interesting to me

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Speaker 4: because for the obvious reason that, like, as a writer,

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Speaker 4: like this is this is technology that is directly overlaps

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Speaker 4: with what I am trained to and paid to do,

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Speaker 4: you know, and I try to be in general, my

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Speaker 4: approach to this stuff is to try and figure out

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Speaker 4: what excites like what excites what excites other people about

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Speaker 4: something that doesn't necessarily excite me, or like what is

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Speaker 4: what do people find so captivating about it. It's a

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Speaker 4: little easier to do that because, like I said, it's

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Speaker 4: sort of obviously impressive, and I try to approach it

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Speaker 4: not from like a purely critical, purely kind of negative standpoint.

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Speaker 4: Even if I think, you know, Sam Altman is not

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Speaker 4: a great guy or somebody who's got my best interests

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Speaker 4: in mind.

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Speaker 1: Frankly, they ever are a great guy? Are they know?

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Speaker 2: Was the last time there was like a huge new

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Speaker 2: technology started by somebody that you're like, that is a

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Speaker 2: freat person.

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Speaker 1: I really like him. They seem cool.

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Speaker 2: I mean it is unusual, right, yeah. I mean people

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Speaker 2: used to love like Steve Jobs, but even Steve Jobs

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Speaker 2: and not upon further reflection, by the way, always seemed

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Speaker 2: like kind of not a great guy, like he was

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Speaker 2: sort of a dick.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you must remember, I feel like it was.

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Speaker 4: It's just a different cultural difference between like the nineties

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Speaker 4: and two thousands is now as people used to sort

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Speaker 4: of laugh about Steve Jobs as an abuse of boss like,

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Speaker 4: which he really obviously was. Every story you'd hear, these

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Speaker 4: sort of semi heroic stories about him just completely bitching

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Speaker 4: people out, screening at them whatever, like in the in

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Speaker 4: the mac Press, in MacAddict or whatever. It was also

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Speaker 4: treated as this funny little thing. And now you'd be like,

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Speaker 4: if that, if that stuff had come out now, that

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Speaker 4: people would have been up in arms. I mean, because

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Speaker 4: he sounds like he was an horrible person to work

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Speaker 4: for and basically every way.

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Speaker 2: You do, yes, and then but also you have to

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Speaker 2: wonder what is what could a Steve Jobs level creator exist?

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is the ultimate question. If the man

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Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to be a complete like rage aholic or whatever.

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Speaker 2: It's also right, he also cried. He also cried a lot, right,

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Speaker 2: That was the other thing, Like in the in the

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Speaker 2: Isaacs in books, they talked about him crying, but which

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Speaker 2: I find just like incongruous with him. I mean, it

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Speaker 2: makes I can see it, like in my mind's eye.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, I get it. But like, imagine being

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Speaker 2: in any work scenario. Okay, you're a you're a guy.

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Speaker 2: You go into an office, your boss is berating you

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Speaker 2: or something, or like, you have to deliver bad news,

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Speaker 2: and his reactions he starts crying in the room. Forget

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Speaker 2: about forget about abuse for a second. Let's take the

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Speaker 2: abuse stuff out of it, just for a moment, just

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Speaker 2: put it to the side. I can't think of a

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Speaker 2: more uncomfortable situation for a person to be. I mean,

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Speaker 2: obviously there are more uncomfortable situations, but very unusual and

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Speaker 2: apparently happened on a regular basis that he would break

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Speaker 2: down in tears during a meeting or like you did

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Speaker 2: an argument or something, which is like, it's just very

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Speaker 2: like he had a lot of volid emotions.

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Speaker 4: But that's how we got the iPhone from crying lots

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Speaker 4: of it.

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Speaker 2: Fucking raises the question because you know what happened. I

396
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Speaker 2: guarantee you. I guarantee you. Some people brought him a

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Speaker 2: shitty fucking touch screen like the original Android. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember how Android phones were,

399
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Speaker 2: the first version of them, they had like the touch

400
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Speaker 2: screen sensitivity was all over the fucking map. They sucked

401
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Speaker 2: to use. Yeah, somebody brought him that shit. Yeah, and

402
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Speaker 2: he had a meltdown on them. He threw the fucking

403
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Speaker 2: phone in the face. He did a David Pogue. He

404
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,520
Speaker 2: chucked the phone directly at their face. Remember when David

405
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Speaker 2: Poke threw a phone at his wife. This is oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was sorry, It's just I think about it all

407
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Speaker 2: the time. Whenever I noticed that talk about the iPhone,

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Speaker 2: I'd be like, go to Dave. David Pogue throwing an

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Speaker 2: iPhone at his wife. Oh also horrible, by the way,

410
00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:41,840
Speaker 2: horrible abusive thing to do. But yeah, Steve Jobs, they

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Speaker 2: gave him the shitty touch screen. He threw it at somebody.

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Speaker 2: He was like, this is not extentually started crying, I

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Speaker 2: assume at some point, and then eventually, out of fear, right,

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Speaker 2: they brought him really good touch screen, like just out

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Speaker 2: of pure fear. They were like, all right, like we

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Speaker 2: have to do this, or like he's gonna be really upset.

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Speaker 2: We don't like want to make Steve us. You know,

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Speaker 2: would we have gotten the iPhone or would we have

419
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Speaker 2: a would it be a whole different future that we're

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Speaker 2: living in right now. Maybe there would be no social

421
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Speaker 2: media because when you think about it, without a great

422
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Speaker 2: touch screen, the iPhone's probably not a successful product. And

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Speaker 2: if it's not successful, then the whole social media boom

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Speaker 2: and all that shit really doesn't happen.

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Speaker 4: Might Yeah, I mean when you put it like that,

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Speaker 4: you're not making an argument that it was a good

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Speaker 4: thing that any else I'm not sure not if it's

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Speaker 4: without bad bosses, we wouldn't have social media. Wouldn't that

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Speaker 4: be great?

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Speaker 2: Right?

431
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Speaker 4: Better workplaces and no Facebook.

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Speaker 2: But I've come full circle. I mean I was when

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Speaker 2: I was twelve years old. I got on the Internet

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Speaker 2: when I was like twelve, right, and it was early internet.

435
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Speaker 2: But now I'm like, yeah, we got to shut it down, like,

436
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Speaker 2: why did we ever invent any of this stuff? This

437
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,359
Speaker 2: seems bad, like we made a huge mistake.

438
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:44,359
Speaker 1: Well, it's funny.

439
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,080
Speaker 4: One thing about AI that I noticed is I think

440
00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,600
Speaker 4: we've gone from a position I mean the sort of

441
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,520
Speaker 4: capsule history which isn't which is always more complicated than this,

442
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:55,880
Speaker 4: But the capsule history I think that people tell about themselves,

443
00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,280
Speaker 4: journalists tell about themselves and the tech boom is that

444
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,960
Speaker 4: we were all a little bit who positive towards the

445
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,200
Speaker 4: tech industry, that we were too excited that we gave

446
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,040
Speaker 4: them a pass through the recite.

447
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're like the touch screen on this iPhones fucking amazingly.

448
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:11,200
Speaker 2: I mean, as a guy who reviewed most of them,

449
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,200
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, the touch screen is

450
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:13,560
Speaker 2: so good?

451
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,879
Speaker 1: How did they do it? Steve Jobs has done it again?

452
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:18,200
Speaker 4: And then and then when everything kind of fell apart

453
00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,000
Speaker 4: and it became clear how bad for all of us,

454
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:22,080
Speaker 4: all of this stuff.

455
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:22,399
Speaker 1: Kind of was.

456
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:24,960
Speaker 4: You know, everybody hunched over and was like, we can't

457
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:26,520
Speaker 4: let that happen again. And I think a lot of

458
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,200
Speaker 4: the like media critical reaction to a lot of AI

459
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,719
Speaker 4: stuff is born out of that fear that we're going

460
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,560
Speaker 4: to be too. You know that we that we really

461
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,240
Speaker 4: need to give these products like this and technologies like

462
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:42,440
Speaker 4: this really rigorous and clear kind of investigations goings over

463
00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:44,960
Speaker 4: like make it make them as good as they possibly can.

464
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:45,560
Speaker 1: Right.

465
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,560
Speaker 4: That's obviously you want journalists who are oppositional and aggressive

466
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,080
Speaker 4: and critical in all these ways. But it's like creates

467
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,560
Speaker 4: this very a very funny and different kind of relationship

468
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,119
Speaker 4: with the tech industry than existed in say like two

469
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:57,760
Speaker 4: thousand and five or two thousand and six.

470
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 1: Oh no, totally, totally.

471
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,080
Speaker 2: I hear, by the way, the sounds of New York

472
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,840
Speaker 2: in the background there, it's like you gotta sir, and

473
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:06,800
Speaker 2: I'm just creeping up. So I've been so long since

474
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,239
Speaker 2: I've heard that, now that I live in out the country. No,

475
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,639
Speaker 2: you're right, I mean I think there is probably in

476
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,080
Speaker 2: some way an over adjustment.

477
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I actually, and I've probably told the story before.

478
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 2: But I I had a meeting with actually it was

479
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,719
Speaker 2: a fund I was fundraising for the Outline and we

480
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,560
Speaker 2: met with Mark Andries and it turned into an argument

481
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,720
Speaker 2: between the two of us. It was an interesting meeting

482
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,080
Speaker 2: because there were like seven people there and it just

483
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 2: ended up with us arguing with each other. But one

484
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,760
Speaker 2: of his arguments about generally about like the tech press,

485
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 2: I mean, the outline wasn't pure tech, but it was

486
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,920
Speaker 2: like he was like, you guys are of all, you're

487
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,240
Speaker 2: all trashing us, and you're taking shots at us, and

488
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 2: you're trying to like tear down all the work that

489
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 2: we're doing. And and I was like, one of my

490
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,639
Speaker 2: things that I remember, and I think maybe struck a

491
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 2: course with him, I was like, we like actually have

492
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,720
Speaker 2: been like nothing but like wonderful to the tech industry,

493
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,280
Speaker 2: and we expected like that that people in tech to

494
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 2: be better. Yeah, and you guys have ended up being

495
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 2: exactly like the fucking robber barons of yester year. Like

496
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 2: you're supposed to be the next generation of like these

497
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,119
Speaker 2: leaders who do who hold themselves to a higher standard

498
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,119
Speaker 2: or are more aware of what's going on in the

499
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 2: world and like you know, more sensitive to like the

500
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:24,120
Speaker 2: users and who they are and what they represent and anyhow.

501
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,199
Speaker 2: But like, I think that's that is they've reacted very

502
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,960
Speaker 2: poorly to getting bad press because they they have gotten

503
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,920
Speaker 2: so much good press, and so there's a hugely defensive stance.

504
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 4: I also think, I mean, I think that the other

505
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,119
Speaker 4: aspect of this that is is sort of unexpected and

506
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 4: you wouldn't have been able to predict in two thousand

507
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 4: and six, is these are like the two main power

508
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 4: user groups on Twitter. So like suddenly all of the

509
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,200
Speaker 4: media kind of got shuttled through this one single social

510
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 4: media feed, and it was the same feed that all

511
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,359
Speaker 4: of all of tech was also on, and it just

512
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 4: was like just sort of a bad neighbors situation. Like

513
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:00,719
Speaker 4: maybe like all of a sudden, you went from like

514
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 4: maybe you get the Times delivered and you see a

515
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 4: negative article, but you also see the positive article, and

516
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 4: you also get the Journal and there's a bunch of

517
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 4: different things. Now you're like you see every single even

518
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 4: the lowest level, you know, copy editors talking shit about

519
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 4: you or like replying to you and calling you egghead

520
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,360
Speaker 4: or whatever, and you're freaking out, like it's too much

521
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 4: for you.

522
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,199
Speaker 2: That is mean you should never I don't think I

523
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,159
Speaker 2: don't I think never go after people's looks.

524
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,680
Speaker 1: I think you don't you know what I mean. I

525
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:26,679
Speaker 1: have always felt this.

526
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 2: I mean, especially during the Trump years, people would be

527
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,200
Speaker 2: like ooh, the orange whatever. I'm like, that's not productive,

528
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 2: Like it just isn't like it's not a good.

529
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,640
Speaker 4: Clearly, I mean, it clearly got under marketing well, clearly

530
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 4: got under a bunch of people's skins, various various people.

531
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:39,360
Speaker 4: I mean, it doesn't.

532
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:39,719
Speaker 1: I mean.

533
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,200
Speaker 4: The funny thing is that Andresen then started his own

534
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 4: publication to much fanfare, called I think called Future.

535
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 2: He's also he's also very interested in covering the future,

536
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 2: like what future and.

537
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 1: Your public is.

538
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:53,400
Speaker 4: Then they shut it down because because if.

539
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 2: He wants to read a fucking white paper from a

540
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 2: sixteen Z or from andres and Horwitz, like nobody wants

541
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 2: to read, nobody cares, nobody wants to read PR. First off,

542
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 2: I wish I could tell all the PR people though

543
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 2: I wish they could learn.

544
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 4: But I mean, and the other thing is like running

545
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 4: an actual like publication that publishes with any kind of

546
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 4: regularity good things that people want to read with any

547
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,399
Speaker 4: kind of regularity is much more difficult than I think

548
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 4: people appreciate it. I have this thing about I think

549
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 4: there's something real about the way people, certain kinds of

550
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 4: people relate to journalists and the media is because of

551
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 4: what we do is just write and just sort of

552
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,439
Speaker 4: tell people what's happening in the world. There's there's there's

553
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 4: a sense that like anybody could kind of do it,

554
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 4: and so there's a there's a there's a resentment from

555
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 4: people like Intrisan or whomever that that sort of the

556
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 4: suggestion that, like, you know, I could be doing what

557
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 4: you're doing, I could do it better. And when you

558
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 4: actually try to do it, like run the whole thing

559
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 4: as a business, like like hit everything that you need

560
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 4: to hit to be a good journalist and a good

561
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 4: editor and a good publisher, you recognize that, especially in

562
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 4: the current environment, especially in the environment that people like

563
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 4: Andresen created, it's a lot of work. It takes a

564
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 4: lot of work and a lot of like accumulated skill

565
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,719
Speaker 4: and knowledge. It's not something you can just replicate because

566
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 4: you've decided that today's journalists don't know how to do

567
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 4: it right or whatever.

568
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 2: I agree with everything you just said one hundred percent,

569
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 2: but I will also say we have so devalued what

570
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 2: looks like.

571
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 1: Journalism and news.

572
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 2: It's been so greatly terrifically devalued, and there are so

573
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 2: many people who truly suck doing it, like really bad.

574
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 2: There are like bad actors at places like Daily Wire

575
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 2: or whatever. There are people who are bad at it,

576
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 2: like that just aren't good at their job because it

577
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 2: has become probably there was a period where it was

578
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,919
Speaker 2: easier than ever to go, hey, i'm gonna write, I'm

579
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 2: gonna make content, Like journalism became this thing called content,

580
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 2: not the journalism with the capital jay that you're probably

581
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 2: thinking about or we're talking about.

582
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 1: Really.

583
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 2: And also it's all free, yeah, right, it's free to everybody,

584
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 2: and everybody thinks it should be free. And so I

585
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 2: think it's that combination of like you've got like legitimately

586
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 2: bad actors, you've got legitimately like kind of people who

587
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 2: should never have gotten into the craft to begin with.

588
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,360
Speaker 2: Like not to throw it back to the NFT thing,

589
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 2: but it's a good it's kind of an interesting parallel

590
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 2: where it's like you really aren't an artist. You didn't like,

591
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 2: you didn't train, you didn't really want to be an artist,

592
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:08,959
Speaker 2: you kind of don't care about it that much, but

593
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 2: like you could get a job doing it right. You

594
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 2: can get a job like making an NFT and like

595
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,199
Speaker 2: maybe sell some and make a quick buck. I think

596
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people who kind of found their

597
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,640
Speaker 2: way into like content creation that was like a machine.

598
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: It was like it kind of like, you.

599
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 2: Know why we're all talking about AI a lot lately

600
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 2: in this in this venue is like it became a

601
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 2: very machine almost like a machine generated game, where it's

602
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 2: like you write a headline that it will get clicks,

603
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,640
Speaker 2: and you put some content in the below it that's

604
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 2: like feels like enough information to call it a story,

605
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 2: and that's like what journalism is. There's actually a fair

606
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 2: argument to say that there is a lot of bad journalism.

607
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 2: It's just that what they're talking about isn't like is

608
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 2: it the Daily Wire, and it isn't like the user

609
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 2: generated content on BuzzFeed dot com. It's people who say

610
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 2: things that are true that they don't want to hear

611
00:26:58,200 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 2: or don't want anybody else to see.

612
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 1: Basic.

613
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 4: The other thing I wouldn't want to say is that

614
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 4: it's not as though. I mean, the thing I still

615
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 4: love about the Internet is that you can find incredible

616
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 4: geniuses doing work that would otherwise never have been cover.

617
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 4: It's not like citizens, I like, do I believe in

618
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 4: citizen journalism like conceptually Circle twenty twelve, Jeff Jarvis talking

619
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 4: about like said citizen journalism, No, but do I believe

620
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 4: that there are like people there are incredibly talented writers, reporters,

621
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 4: journalists out there who would not have access to audiences

622
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 4: if it wasn't for the Internet.

623
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

624
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 4: Absolutely, I mean that those people are those.

625
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 2: People one hundred percent. I mean, to be clear, we

626
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 2: would not be having this conversation. I would have done

627
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 2: nothing if it weren't for the fact. I mean I

628
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 2: didn't go to as you as I think. You know,

629
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 2: I barely even went to high school, but I definitely

630
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 2: didn't go to to college for journalism. Like I didn't

631
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,439
Speaker 2: go to Jay's school and then leave and go intern

632
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 2: at the New York Times. Like there used to be

633
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 2: a way that people did this that was very linear, right,

634
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 2: and it was a very closed circuit.

635
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 1: For sure.

636
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 2: The Internet has has I know that everybody talks about

637
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 2: this is like kind of like bullshit, but I think it,

638
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,719
Speaker 2: I mean, these days, but it had leveled the playing

639
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 2: field for if a person was eager and excited and good, yeah,

640
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 2: and had any bit of talent, Like there was a

641
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 2: place to go and go and do it and find

642
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 2: like hone it, you know, and like I that's real

643
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 2: and awesome. Yeah, And a lot of our best journalists,

644
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 2: a lot of the best journalists working today it came

645
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 2: from that sort of with those backgrounds, like not from

646
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 2: straight from Jay school.

647
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 4: You know, something that I believe, like incredibly strongly, like

648
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 4: on a political levelist that there's all this incredible, unused,

649
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 4: untapped talent, creative talent, creative genius intelligence out there in

650
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 4: the world, in the US but around the world that

651
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 4: is just ill served by the political economic systems that

652
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 4: we have working right now. And the Internet at its

653
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 4: best is a way to level that playing field and

654
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 4: to like find outlets for those people, find ways for

655
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 4: them to make use of their incredible genius that otherwise

656
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 4: would and exist. And then the Internet, it's worse, is

657
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 4: also like a way for very rich guys to like

658
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 4: find those talents and then just exploit the hell out

659
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 4: of the stuff they're creating. I mean, I think this

660
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 4: about social media for real. It's like, what makes Facebook

661
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 4: valuable is not the technology, what makes or Twitter or

662
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 4: any or TikTok or anything. It's the people who are

663
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 4: creating stuff that is engaging and entertaining and funny and

664
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 4: weird for free for these social networks.

665
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 2: Right.

666
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 4: The drill the drills, Yeah, exactly right, And you know

667
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 4: this is this is the thing that I think is

668
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 4: worth thinking about as AI comes into being is the

669
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 4: sort of sense that, like, you know, what is AI

670
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 4: going to be used for? Because I think it has

671
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 4: this possibility to give sort of production tool in the

672
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 4: same way that you know, like electronic production music production

673
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 4: tools gave access to all these kids in their bedrooms

674
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 4: the ability to make beats and to make music and

675
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 4: to create create stuff themselves without having to you know,

676
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 4: pay one thousand dollars an hour for a studio or

677
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 4: whatever and get that stuff together. Like, I see a

678
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 4: lot of gender to AI that feels like, maybe not

679
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 4: right now, but pretty soon, this is going to help

680
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 4: people create things themselves, even if they don't really have

681
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 4: access to these huge resources outside of it, right, And

682
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 4: what frustrates me is that it sure seems like the

683
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 4: business model that places like open ai are gunning for

684
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 4: is instead of like, let's enable people who otherwise wouldn't

685
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 4: be able to, you know, do these things, let's let's

686
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 4: find ways to replace the people who are already doing

687
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 4: these things with the shittier version that we can have

688
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 4: the boss's control or whatever.

689
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 2: Right, there's a lot there that I agree with and

690
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 2: also to unpack. But I will say that it is

691
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 2: interesting that. I mean, I don't want to get into

692
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 2: a you know, capitalism or whatever. Capitalism isn't good or not.

693
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 2: There's obviously some problems with it, but like there is

694
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 2: that you know. The history of capitalism is like these

695
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: like incredible innovations that are then like manipulated into like

696
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 2: a massive business that then like needs a bunch of

697
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 2: like worker bees to like go and do and it's

698
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 2: like owned by a very small segment. Like the thing

699
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 2: itself is owned by a very small segment of the population,

700
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 2: but the actual work to make the thing is done

701
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 2: by a much larger segment.

702
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: Of the population.

703
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 2: And it's usually grueling and shitty, and people are underpaid

704
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 2: for it. And it's like is and that is like

705
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 2: in some way, like a Facebook is, like you said,

706
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 2: like all these people are Facebook or Twitter or whatever.

707
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 2: Is like these amazing people create for it, like that's

708
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 2: the engine of it or whatever. But it is, you know,

709
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 2: over time turned into kind of like a just like

710
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 2: it's a part of like a machine, Like those people

711
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 2: are a part of a machine that drives commerce. Right, Yeah,

712
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 2: I think that would be fine if the system of

713
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 2: commerce that it was built on was actually made any

714
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 2: fucking sense. But the system of commerce is built on

715
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 2: is based on a mistake, like essentially a mistake about

716
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 2: the value of people on the Internet. I think there's

717
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 2: like a foundational fundamental flaw and like how we monetize

718
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 2: content on the Internet. I've probably put this a million

719
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 2: times and I don't have to go into my spiel here,

720
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 2: but like the way that Google came up with monetizing

721
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 2: search is the way that we basically monetize.

722
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: Everything, and it is it's wrong. It just was wrong.

723
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 2: It just was like they could do that at the

724
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 2: time because that was all that was available to them,

725
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 2: Like they had one notion of like could we make money,

726
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 2: and like, well, this is a way, like a billboard

727
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 2: on a road, Like that's one way to make money.

728
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 2: Like you put a billboard up and some people drive

729
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 2: past it, and you can sell space on the billboard.

730
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 2: And sometimes people who drive past it will be like, hey,

731
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 2: like yeah, I need a new car, Like I should

732
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 2: go check out the fucking Audi that I you know,

733
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 2: the sign I drove past. But like, out of the

734
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 2: people who drive past it, most of them never go

735
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 2: check out the Audi or whatever. But over time, there's

736
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 2: some small value that can be extracted from that billboard.

737
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 2: And that's but that's the entire business model of the Internet,

738
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 2: is that every single thing on it is like as

739
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 2: devalued as.

740
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: Like a billboard or whatever.

741
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 2: Like anyhow, I mean it's not the perfect analogy, but

742
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying, So.

743
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: But it doesn't.

744
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 4: I mean, part of it too, is that it means

745
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 4: that when you're doing creative work, like you are also

746
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 4: having to think about how you're like you yourself are also

747
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,479
Speaker 4: a billboard. And so like I like my job, I

748
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 4: like my life. I like what I do on substeck,

749
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 4: but like part of what I have to be part

750
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 4: of what my subtect is and like part of what

751
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 4: I have to do as a writer who isn't currently

752
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 4: have W two employment is sort of be my own

753
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 4: marketing team across a bunch of different platforms so that

754
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 4: people know they can hire me, people know they can

755
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 4: find me.

756
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: Right.

757
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 4: It's the hustle, yeah, and it's it's not a great

758
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 4: way to live. And the thing that but the thing

759
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 4: that really I think is a problem with it is

760
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 4: that we know, for a fact there are a lot

761
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 4: of writers who are more talented than me, who are

762
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 4: better than me at all the things I do. For instance, well,

763
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 4: who don't want to let's without naming names. I don't

764
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 4: want to be part of that that hustle who are

765
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 4: not interested in that. Like, No, I'm talking about the opposite.

766
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 4: I'm talking about somebody who is not good at this

767
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 4: kind of this kind of thing, who doesn't want to

768
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 4: do it. Yes, there's like very few ways for that person. Yeah,

769
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 4: they're very few ways for that person to be compensated

770
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 4: for work they do. Whereas you have people who are

771
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 4: who are incredibly good at the hustle part of it,

772
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 4: again not naming, incredibly good to the hustle part of it,

773
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 4: not not particularly intelligent or whatever.

774
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,760
Speaker 1: Writer. I think that's what we're talking about.

775
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 4: I mean, we can all imagine in our heads somebody

776
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:23,240
Speaker 4: who fits these gat and say, for exactly, for example,

777
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 4: they're they're ubiquitous.

778
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: I'm intelligent, but good at the hustle. I'm thinking, actually,

779
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: they shake.

780
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 4: The right hands, they put themselves in the right names.

781
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 4: It's one reason why the internet can make you so

782
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 4: mad when you go online these days, Like the reward

783
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 4: is market Like you get much better rewarded for marketing

784
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:39,240
Speaker 4: than you do for quality.

785
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 2: Right, of course no, yes, I mean and and and

786
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 2: if you're bad at or don't like or feel like

787
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 2: you know, some people like if you're from generation acts

788
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 2: like myself, you're not gen X.

789
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: Are you? You're a millennial?

790
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:50,760
Speaker 4: No, I'm a millennial.

791
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're if you're like a gen X person,

792
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 2: you you feel a kind of physical impulse to reject

793
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,839
Speaker 2: self promotion. And now, I don't know, maybe people would

794
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 2: say that I don't. I haven't jected self promotion. I'm

795
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 2: not really sure, but I would tell you I would.

796
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 2: I think if you ask Lyra and Jenn f I

797
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 2: am promoting this podcast enough, I think that they would

798
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 2: tell you that.

799
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: I am not. And they wish I was hustling. They

800
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 1: wish I was hustling more. I don't know. I don't

801
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 1: want to speak for them.

802
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 2: All that said, you know, if you even are close

803
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 2: to making a living at doing what you're doing, it's

804
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 2: also fucking wild because you know your parents and your

805
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,240
Speaker 2: grandparents and certainly every generation that is, almost every generation

806
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 2: that's come before us. This abstract thing that we are doing,

807
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 2: this abstract I mean, it is fucking weird, like it

808
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 2: is weird, like we are go on to this thing

809
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 2: the screen, We go into the screen and then we

810
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 2: do something that frankly we like. Probably for the most part,

811
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 2: you probably like the writing that you're doing, right, You're

812
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: not like, you don't wake up every day and you're like,

813
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know, maybe you got to do

814
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 2: the hustle, but you don't wake up every.

815
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 4: I mean some weeks. Some weeks you're like, ah, do

816
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 4: I really have to do this? But for the most part, yeah,

817
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 4: it's good, right.

818
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 2: And I mean, I'm sure there are many struggling YouTubers

819
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 2: you feel the same way. But like, if you can

820
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 2: even make if you I'm sorry, if you can even

821
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 2: make one dime just shooting a video of yourself and

822
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 2: put it on the internet, Like, it's kind of amazing

823
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 2: because there was no period in history before this where

824
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 2: such a thing was possible in really any venue. I mean,

825
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 2: you couldn't just put a show on and have people

826
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 2: come to your play or whatever. You couldn't just make

827
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 2: a movie and put it in a theater. You couldn't

828
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 2: just like write a newspaper and have it exist in

829
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 2: front of people. So there is this amazing flip side,

830
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 2: which is like all of this seems like there's fantasy here.

831
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 2: Like I think if you were to go back fifty

832
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 2: years and describe.

833
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:36,879
Speaker 1: This to somebody, they'd be like, it would just.

834
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 2: Be sound like such a fantastic story, like such a

835
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 2: total bit of fantasy. So there's a flip side to

836
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:44,839
Speaker 2: all of it, which is like, the internet's a sass

837
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 2: pulling full of horrible people, and the people who own

838
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 2: and control most parts of the Internet are tyrants who

839
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 2: are working everybody to the bone and don't give us

840
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 2: our fair shake. And the model, the monetization model the

841
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 2: Internet is built on, it's a complete shit show that sucks,

842
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 2: and it's broken at at its most fun a mental level.

843
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 2: And yet there are more people creating interesting works of fiction,

844
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,399
Speaker 2: non fiction, art, non art, like journalism, whatever, than we've

845
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 2: probably ever had in the history of the world. There's

846
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,919
Speaker 2: probably more like journalism being done than ever before. Yeah,

847
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 2: am I crazy for saying that?

848
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 4: No? I don't think so. I mean, I think it's

849
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 4: a it's a I mean for me, the question is,

850
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 4: how can we have that flowering of creativity and talent

851
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 4: and intelligence, and how can we you know, like make

852
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:32,240
Speaker 4: sure that people are reaching their potentials without the layer

853
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 4: of exploitation that seems that right now seems like integral

854
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 4: to all this stuff, and I did like to This

855
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:40,959
Speaker 4: is something that I've been thinking about a lot lately,

856
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 4: because so I'm in the Writer's Guild, the TV Writers

857
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 4: Guild and we're on strike right now, or the TV

858
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,399
Speaker 4: and Film Writers Guild and we're on strike right now,

859
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 4: and something that is a huge contrast between being a journalist,

860
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 4: where you might have a workplace union but oftentimes in

861
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 4: general you don't, versus being in a heavily unionized industry

862
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 4: part of a pretty powerful union is seeing what can happen,

863
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 4: how much better a job can be. When you have

864
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 4: that kind of at least, you have a little bit

865
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 4: of leverage against the exploitation that you're not completely at

866
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 4: the whims of what the bosses want at any given moment.

867
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 4: You're not completely like, am I going to have a

868
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 4: job today? Am I going to have a job tomorrow?

869
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 4: Am I going to make money from this thing I'm

870
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 4: working on on? Spec? Am I not going to make

871
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 4: money from it?

872
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: Right?

873
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 4: And I think Hollywood is a really interesting example of

874
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 4: an industry that is a creative industry that produces a

875
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 4: wide range of things from total shit to like you know,

876
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 4: instances of surpassing genius that manages nonetheless to like adequately

877
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 4: up until recently, adequately reward the creative people who work

878
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 4: on it like and sometimes like more than just rewards,

879
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 4: sometimes make them extremely rich because they they did a

880
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 4: really good job at whatever it is you're supposed to

881
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 4: do it. And I think that like to you know,

882
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 4: I'm not saying like, I don't know how a content creators.

883
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 4: I'm not suggesting that content creators unionized, though I would

884
00:38:58,160 --> 00:38:59,479
Speaker 4: love to. I would think it would be great.

885
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 2: Imagine if like everybody in YouTube unionized, like you.

886
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 4: Know, there's like the German German vloggers have been trying

887
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,959
Speaker 4: to do this for years now, and in fact, they're

888
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 4: unionizing under the steel workers union in Germany, I guess

889
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 4: is extremely powerful. It's maybe the biggest union there, and

890
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 4: so they've got a special like YouTube content creators organizing

891
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 4: like group that they're.

892
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 2: Trying to I like, I really like the idea of

893
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 2: like steel workers and YouTubers like you know, together, that's

894
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 2: like very I don't know that sounds.

895
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 4: Right if I might be remembering this wrong, but I'm

896
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 4: pretty sure the guy behind it is this German guy

897
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 4: who does videos of where he like builds his own

898
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 4: catapults and just like it's the most YouTube thing. But

899
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 4: also I think I like, right at the intersection of

900
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 4: like steel workers YouTube and German, it's like the guy.

901
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:43,359
Speaker 2: It's like the guy who's like, I'm going to build

902
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 2: a house from like just like this mud plane. I like,

903
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 2: come here and I'm going to build like a mudhouse

904
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 2: out of like lumber, I chop down and yeah, something

905
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,439
Speaker 2: like that. So, right, there is this huge strike going

906
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 2: on right now. Of course, Hollywood is an industry that's

907
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 2: been around a lot longer than the Internet, right, and

908
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 2: has has gone through lots of situations where there's tremendous

909
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 2: abuse of power by the people who are in charge

910
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 2: of like the studios. I imagine there's still a tremendous

911
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 2: abuse of power by the people who, yeah, the studios.

912
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 2: But but yeah, of course people eventually were like, hey,

913
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 2: we need to unionize. Of course, It's interesting the modern

914
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 2: narrative about unions is is very confused. I think there's

915
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 2: so much misinformation about about what unions are and what

916
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 2: they do that it has really done its job of

917
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 2: like making a lot of people very skeptical about the

918
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 2: power of a union.

919
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, Hollywood unions all formed in the forties

920
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 4: and fifties, when union density in the US was like

921
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 4: three or four times what it is now. When you know,

922
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 4: it was like pretty common to be in a union.

923
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,800
Speaker 4: There were like institutions that people knew, well, everybody knew

924
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 4: at least one person or a family member who was

925
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 4: in a union. So it wasn't crazy to be like, oh, yeah,

926
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 4: we're going to form a writer.

927
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 1: It wasn't a political thing that like, you know, I

928
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 1: mean there was a wow.

929
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 4: I mean, it depends on the you depends on the union.

930
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 4: Like some of those you know, the writers in particular

931
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 4: were and still are relatively left wing compared to the

932
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 4: other right.

933
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 2: But I mean, I mean, Hollywood is generally speaking not

934
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 2: a I mean, I'm not saying there are no conservatives

935
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 2: in Hollywood, but it is obviously the owners are all

936
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 2: probably there's no question, but I mean, generally speaking, people

937
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 2: in the creative arts tend to be more left leaning,

938
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 2: more liberal than people in a non creative arts. I think, yeah,

939
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,879
Speaker 2: I think that's fair, and so unsurprisingly that the union

940
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 2: would be you know, obviously very very liberal or i

941
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 2: mean socialism, you know, is directly tied to lots of

942
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 2: unions in their creation, and like the concept of a

943
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 2: union of itself.

944
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 4: Is like a very socialistic idea, although you know that

945
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 4: being said, like if you go and you talk to

946
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,359
Speaker 4: like the camera operators who work shows in New York

947
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,280
Speaker 4: City who are all members of AATSI, and the teamsters

948
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 4: who are part of the Stage Hands Union, which is

949
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 4: one of the other big powerful Hollywood unions. Yeah, yeah,

950
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 4: I'm not saying an even vote for Trump, but you're

951
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,359
Speaker 4: going to talk to guys who are very different set

952
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 4: set up politics than I sew on union guys, guys

953
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:49,959
Speaker 4: who are showing us solidarity on the strike. But there's

954
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,839
Speaker 4: like a there is a wide range of political.

955
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: You know, but you see how those cut across.

956
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 2: There's a very blue collar, white collar interception there where

957
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 2: you've got like like a camera operation or is a

958
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 2: vary or like somebody who's doing set design or or

959
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 2: like literally some of the labor. Like I remember when

960
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 2: I used to go on on Fallon and like I

961
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 2: remember once I tried to move a box like we

962
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 2: were like setting up some like gadget or whatever, and

963
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 2: they're like, you can't touch that, And I was like Okay,

964
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 2: there's only the union. People who moved the boxes could

965
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 2: touch the boxes. Like I it was like literally illegal

966
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 2: for me to touch the box. But it's very blue

967
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:22,919
Speaker 2: collar work, you know, it's like not like sitting down

968
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,919
Speaker 2: at your think pad and writing, you know, the next

969
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:26,760
Speaker 2: episode of Lost.

970
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: It's like.

971
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 4: One of the things that, I mean, one of the

972
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 4: things that has been very inspiring and has made me

973
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 4: feel really optimistic and positive about the strike wear on

974
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 4: right now is the extent of the solidarity shown by

975
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 4: the teamsters to the Writer's Guild so that we've managed

976
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 4: especially it's supposed to work. Yeah, I mean, the idea

977
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 4: is that everybody that there's a there's solidarity between unions

978
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 4: because everybody understands the basic dynamic. And that hasn't always

979
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 4: been the case. You know, the last strike writers went

980
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 4: on with two thousand and eight. A lot of this

981
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 4: is sort of like anecdotes, and but people said, you know,

982
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 4: back then, people didn't think the writers need to go

983
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 4: on strike. You know, teamsters were worried about missing there hours.

984
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 4: You know, they're not productions are getting shut down. In

985
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 4: a lot of cases, they're not getting paid. So they

986
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 4: would break picket lines, they would they would walk through,

987
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 4: they would try to keep working, try to get paid,

988
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 4: and that just has it's been a total change from

989
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 4: that for this most recent one, which you can attribute

990
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 4: to a million things, you know, like one of it

991
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 4: and is just I think, like you were saying, we've

992
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 4: gone from a real low ebb of unions to like

993
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 4: the sparks. We're not yet in a place where unions

994
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 4: are like have the same kind of density that they

995
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 4: used to, but we've gone from a low ebb to

996
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 4: there's you know, there's a changes coming, I think, And

997
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 4: so I think people are more positive in general that

998
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 4: we're learning more.

999
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 1: I agree.

1000
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,479
Speaker 2: I think people maybe are starting to realize and maybe

1001
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 2: the internet is we can thank the internet for some

1002
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 2: of this, just of being able to visualize what happens

1003
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 2: in non union environments and like going, hey, wait a second, like, yeah,

1004
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 2: it makes sense that we have some leverage because if

1005
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:52,959
Speaker 2: you're not in a union, your leverage is basically niil

1006
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 2: with the business. And by the way, have you been picketing?

1007
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 2: Are you out there? Like have you you out there

1008
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 2: with this?

1009
00:43:57,719 --> 00:43:57,919
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1010
00:43:58,160 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 4: I pick I haven't picketed this week, but I was

1011
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:01,240
Speaker 4: getting last week in the week before.

1012
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:03,320
Speaker 1: Are there shifts. Are people doing shifts on picking?

1013
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, so they've got big shifts that they announced the

1014
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,439
Speaker 4: day before. Like right now, upfronts, which are the big

1015
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 4: ad sales events that the networks I'll put on, are

1016
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 4: going on. So there's pickets outside all the upfronts. You know,

1017
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,399
Speaker 4: usually they bring on the actors for the big fall

1018
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 4: shows or whatever. Actors, like the teamsters have been showing

1019
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:20,359
Speaker 4: a ton of solidarity with the writers. Most of them

1020
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 4: have refused to cross. So it's like, you know, a

1021
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 4: couple of nightly news anchors though even even some of

1022
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 4: the news anchors refused to cross too. I hear so

1023
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 4: oh really, yeah, so there's like that's interesting. Yeah, Lester

1024
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 4: hole he won't cross crossing or he isn't. Both refused

1025
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 4: to cross.

1026
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: That's cool.

1027
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 4: Andrew Ross Sorkin of The Times and CNBC did cross.

1028
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 1: Oh wow, Andrew not cool.

1029
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 4: Stephanie rule of MSNBC.

1030
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 2: Stephanie rule cross She definitely crossed crossed. Yeah, okay, who

1031
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:47,280
Speaker 2: else anybody else? That's his is juiciest.

1032
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:48,320
Speaker 4: Seacrest crossed.

1033
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 1: Seacrest crossed. Yeah. What's going on with Fallon?

1034
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 2: I saw there's some He came on Blue Sky, he

1035
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 2: joined Blue sky and people were like fucking hazing him.

1036
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 2: I felt bad for the guy, to be honest, It's like,

1037
00:44:57,840 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 2: I mean, I know you shouldn't feel too bad, but I.

1038
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 4: Mean, the thing the show is, it's always complicated because

1039
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 4: you know, you don't want to cross the pivot line.

1040
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 4: But if you're doing a nightly if you're doing a

1041
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 4: nightly talk show, like you've got a huge number of

1042
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 4: people who are that's their living, but you can shut

1043
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 4: it down for two weeks, but at some point you

1044
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 4: have to go back to work. Yeah, I think this

1045
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 4: one's going to last a long time, and so I

1046
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 4: would expect most of the talk show hosts to go

1047
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 4: back on without writers and have to do something similar. Though.

1048
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 4: I mean, we'll see, Like I don't.

1049
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 2: I've got Ai that's to spin up chat GBT to

1050
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 2: do some bits. I mean, how hard can it be?

1051
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:38,359
Speaker 1: Right?

1052
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 2: This is maybe this would be the first big test

1053
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 2: of whether chat GPT can replace human beings that creative

1054
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 2: and depth.

1055
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 4: I mean, this is one of the items in our negotiations.

1056
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:49,359
Speaker 4: It's very important to us because I mean, I think

1057
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 4: one thing that one way to think about all this,

1058
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 4: you know, just to connect it to us talking about

1059
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 4: media before is like we lived through when we were

1060
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 4: talking about earlier on, we lived through a huge sea

1061
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 4: change in the way like journalism is just created and distributed,

1062
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 4: going from print to online. They just decimated the industry.

1063
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 4: That's not the same thing necessarily is what's happening with

1064
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 4: streaming versus studios, But there's a lot of similarities. And

1065
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 4: one of the similarities is just having these huge cash

1066
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,400
Speaker 4: rich companies, tech companies like Netflix and Amazon and Apple

1067
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 4: come in and just kind of throw money around in

1068
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 4: a way that is very hard for people to say

1069
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 4: no to that kind of money, but often means also

1070
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 4: diminishing work protections, accepting deals that you wouldn't have otherwise accepted,

1071
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 4: of course, and now I think a lot of people

1072
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 4: are sort of looking around and saying, hold on, like

1073
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 4: what direction is this going in? And having lived through

1074
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 4: that as a journalist and seeing sort of what happened

1075
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,399
Speaker 4: to journalism, I think it's very clear what happens when

1076
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 4: you allow yourself to sort of buy the line that like, oh,

1077
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 4: the technology has changed, so you have to accept that

1078
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 4: you just can't get paid as much anymore. And you

1079
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 4: know the other thing about that is that Hollywood actually

1080
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 4: is a great example of an industry that's gone two

1081
00:46:57,280 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 4: or three times now through major technological shifts and how

1082
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 4: stuff created and distributed. That these unions have lasted since

1083
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 4: before TV, they lasted before the VCR, before DVDs, And

1084
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 4: every time there's been one of these shifts, there has

1085
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,879
Speaker 4: been almost like you could almost track it by the year,

1086
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:15,760
Speaker 4: there's been a strike because every single time the studios

1087
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:17,879
Speaker 4: trying and say, oh, well, stuff's changed, we just can't

1088
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 4: pay as much as we used to, and writers and

1089
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 4: actors and directors and stage hands tend to stand up

1090
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,720
Speaker 4: and say, hold on, that's not what's going to happen.

1091
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:28,319
Speaker 4: We're going to figure out a new system so that

1092
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 4: we get paid what we deserve to create the content

1093
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 4: that people want to see. And so at the end

1094
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 4: of the tunnel right now you can see a place

1095
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 4: where studios want to use AI to create content as

1096
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 4: a way to pay writers less, as a way to

1097
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 4: employ fewer writers. And it's really important to us to

1098
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 4: stand up and say hold on, Like, for example, if

1099
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 4: you come up with a idea for a story via chat,

1100
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 4: GPT or whatever sophisticated Hollywood AI system. I'm sure Netflix

1101
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 4: is developing somewhere in a dark room and they're huge complex.

1102
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 4: You still have to pay the writer who takes that

1103
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 4: idea and turns it into a script the same rate

1104
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 4: that you would pay writer to write a script from

1105
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 4: a Wikipedia article or whatever.

1106
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,919
Speaker 2: Up Right, I mean that just seems like a no brainer. Yeah,

1107
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 2: the work is the same exactly right.

1108
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1109
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 4: And you know there's another thing where it's like most

1110
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 4: TV shows are written with writer's room, so you get

1111
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 4: ten smart, funny writers. I mean, this is like one

1112
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 4: of those things. I you know, because I started as

1113
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 4: a journalist and moved into TV writing, I'd never really

1114
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 4: experienced the TV writers' room. And now it's like, I

1115
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 4: wish every single thing I write I could write with

1116
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 4: the writer's room, to be able to sit down and

1117
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 4: sayle and be like, heep's great. Here's what we're trying

1118
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 4: to do. Let's get ten like extremely funny, smart people

1119
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,479
Speaker 4: to like like just really work on it for five

1120
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 4: months and make it really good. And I think with

1121
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 4: studios they want to cut down the length of the

1122
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 4: writer's rooms. They want to cut down the number of

1123
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 4: writers that you have to hire because they have this

1124
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 4: idea in their heads. And you know, I don't think

1125
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:51,799
Speaker 4: any of them have announced this specifically, but this is

1126
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 4: what everybody's sort of hearing. This is the chatter that

1127
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 4: you have one guy, you have your Damon Lindelow or

1128
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 4: JJ Abrams or Shonda Rhymes. They come up with the idea,

1129
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:06,240
Speaker 4: and then your writer's room is chat GPT or AI

1130
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 4: or whatever else. And then not only does that make

1131
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 4: for worse content, but it's also that means that writers

1132
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:13,399
Speaker 4: in general, when you want to have just one writer

1133
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 4: come in, you know, a human writer coming to punch

1134
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 4: it up, they're now not protected by the contract structures

1135
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 4: that previously existed.

1136
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 1: So all of a.

1137
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 4: Sudden, it's like, you know, there's all these things that

1138
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 4: the studios, there's ways to make it sound reasonable. Interestings

1139
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 4: like oh yeah, sure, why why do you need to

1140
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 4: have ten writers or whatever? And the answer is, and

1141
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 4: not every show needs to have ten writers. But if

1142
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 4: you don't guarantee that every show has ten writers, then

1143
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 4: all of a sudden, all the shows that really do

1144
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 4: need ten writers suddenly won't get right because the studios

1145
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:39,879
Speaker 4: don't want to pay for it. They're going to point

1146
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 4: to the guy who just needed himself, like Mike White,

1147
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 4: who wrote all of White Lotus by himself and say, well,

1148
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 4: Mike White did it.

1149
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:46,720
Speaker 2: Why can't you use a good point? That's a great point. Actually,

1150
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 2: come on, why not? Why can't you just come in.

1151
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 4: The right exactly? And then you have guys who really

1152
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 4: can't doing ten episode seasons, you're going to get a

1153
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:54,439
Speaker 4: lot more, a lot worse TV.

1154
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:55,280
Speaker 1: Well.

1155
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 2: I mean, it's interesting how it mirrors a lot of

1156
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 2: the rest of what's going on in reality, Like there

1157
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 2: is this pursuit of like massive growth and production, and

1158
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 2: like in some way, I feel like we're starting to

1159
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 2: see the limits of like the content mill. Like I

1160
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 2: feel like with the streaming services, like there's just too

1161
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 2: fucking much. Like like we know that people are starting

1162
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 2: to watch less. We know that there's like an attention

1163
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:19,799
Speaker 2: sort of drift happening. I mean, I don't know about you,

1164
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 2: but I feel like the Sunday night appointment viewing thing

1165
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 2: has come back into focus in a big way around

1166
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 2: the stuff that HBO is doing and some other shows

1167
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 2: like stuff like Yellowjackets, where people are like it really

1168
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 2: is week to week, like talking about there's like a

1169
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 2: discourse about a show, not about the million things that

1170
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:36,799
Speaker 2: you could possibly watching. I mean, I think it is

1171
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 2: that pursuit of that scale is a very is a

1172
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 2: very tech market based fucking thinking on like all of

1173
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 2: this can be bigger and there can be more of it,

1174
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 2: and we can just pump this out, and like AI

1175
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 2: is a solve I mean, yes, the soul for like

1176
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 2: having to do Oh I don't want to deal with

1177
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 2: these fucking creatives or I don't want to room with

1178
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 2: ten people.

1179
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 1: I want one guy.

1180
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 2: But it's also like a solve for scale, right, You're like, oh,

1181
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 2: I can just pump this shit out and I can

1182
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 2: hone it and refine it to what the audience wants

1183
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 2: and it'll be this perfect marriage of like no cost

1184
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 2: production and content that people love, and like we'll just

1185
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:10,400
Speaker 2: make all the money for ourselves. I want to believe

1186
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 2: there's some impossibility there. I want to believe that there's something.

1187
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 2: I think we're all convinced there's some fear lingering out there,

1188
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,520
Speaker 2: this AI fear, you know, and listen, I see it

1189
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 2: in art, like, I mean, the stuff that mid Journey

1190
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 2: does is crazy.

1191
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: Like I put out a song.

1192
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 2: The other day and I had mid Journey do the

1193
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 2: art for it, and it is like as good as

1194
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:30,799
Speaker 2: any maybe better than any piece of art I could

1195
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 2: have gotten from another person because it did exactly what

1196
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 2: I wanted, exactly what I was trying to get it

1197
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 2: to do. And that's scary. That's going to cost people jobs.

1198
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 2: There's no question it already is costing people jobs. Like

1199
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 2: I see it all over the place, Like I see

1200
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:45,400
Speaker 2: it on articles on news stories all the time, right

1201
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:48,399
Speaker 2: where the content was devalued. So also has the art

1202
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:49,720
Speaker 2: content been devalued.

1203
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:50,240
Speaker 1: Go figure.

1204
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 2: I want to believe that there's going to be a

1205
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 2: point and maybe I'm wrong, And frankly, I don't know

1206
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:59,439
Speaker 2: if I'm right. That the capability of the AI won't

1207
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:01,760
Speaker 2: be as as we think it will be to deliver

1208
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 2: the thing that we think it can deliver. Like I

1209
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 2: feel like in technology and in life in some way,

1210
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 2: we're always looking for this magic single solution that you

1211
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 2: put the thing the input into and the output is

1212
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 2: your solve, right like, and I think that this happens

1213
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 2: all the time. I think pivot to video is one

1214
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 2: of these things, right Or like newsletters is one of

1215
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:23,719
Speaker 2: those things. Not a knock on your thing, but it's

1216
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,360
Speaker 2: like this is it. Yeah, we found the solution to

1217
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:30,399
Speaker 2: the problem here, and if we just put that all

1218
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 2: the our bets on that thing.

1219
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:32,960
Speaker 1: It's going to fix it. And like, I think AI

1220
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:33,879
Speaker 1: has a lot of like.

1221
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,799
Speaker 2: Promise and obviously a lot of potential danger, but is

1222
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 2: it really like can it really do the things? Is

1223
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 2: there an AI that will be Mike White before Mike

1224
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 2: White exists?

1225
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 1: Like?

1226
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:44,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, can AI do the White lotus? Just because it's

1227
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 2: able to synthesize what has come before it? Yeah, and

1228
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:51,400
Speaker 2: spit something out even if it's of some quality. Have

1229
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 2: we underestimated the randomness of the human mind? Like I

1230
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 2: think then, I think we have a little bit to

1231
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 2: be honest.

1232
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 4: You can almost talk about this in purely technical terms

1233
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 4: right where it's like we've seen these incredible especially large

1234
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 4: language models have advanced by leaps and pounds just by

1235
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 4: throwing power to them, basically, But it doesn't follow from

1236
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 4: that that just by continuing to add more computers, you know,

1237
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 4: more chips, more more power behind those lms, that we're

1238
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 4: going to get to you know, maybe we can get

1239
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,400
Speaker 4: to ninety percent of human capability or whatever, and maybe

1240
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 4: for a lot of applications that's good enough. Ninety percent

1241
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 4: is fine, and even maybe for television, But that last

1242
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 4: ten percent, like the ten percent that is memorable and

1243
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:35,319
Speaker 4: meaningful and original and new we may never ever reach that,

1244
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 4: we may not ever get.

1245
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 1: There or whatever.

1246
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that because I think the other the

1247
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 4: flip side of the sort of dynamic you're describing is

1248
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 4: and I can't remember who I feel like there was

1249
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 4: an old Wired article that first kind of articulated this

1250
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 4: idea that like the one of the things the Internet

1251
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:52,400
Speaker 4: has done is sort of allowed the rain of the

1252
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:55,320
Speaker 4: good enough. That there's just like once you realize you

1253
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 4: can kind of penetrate into what people are actually accessing

1254
00:53:57,800 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 4: and seeing and doing whatever else, that you realize that,

1255
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 4: like you don't have to make everything perfect. You can

1256
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 4: just make stuff good enough and people will consume it

1257
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 4: in vast quantities. In some ways, that's incredibly freeing as

1258
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 4: a creative that like you can allow stuff that wouldn't

1259
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:11,719
Speaker 4: necessarily hit your standards out there into the world. But

1260
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 4: the flip side of it is that like if good

1261
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 4: enough is good enough, then like what's the motivation to

1262
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 4: take it to beyond good enough? Especially like on a

1263
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:22,520
Speaker 4: corporate level where you're trying to press shareholders and make

1264
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 4: a profit whatever else, Like you don't get extra money

1265
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,360
Speaker 4: by going from good enough to truly excellent. Like the

1266
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:30,799
Speaker 4: dystopian fear about AI. I think I'm just sort of

1267
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 4: echoing what you're saying, is like maybe a I will

1268
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:34,840
Speaker 4: never be able to write the White Lotus or Succession

1269
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:36,919
Speaker 4: or whatever to your sopran Certainly not the Sopranos, whatever

1270
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 4: TV Shaw you love.

1271
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 1: Definitely not the Soprido, like you're like the other one.

1272
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 4: Well, the Sopranos to me is like that's part that's like,

1273
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 4: that's that's memorable, that's for it.

1274
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 2: I don't I don't disagree, But they'll be remaking it

1275
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 2: in like twenty years of the new cast or not

1276
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 2: even twenty years probably.

1277
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:52,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, anyway that there's a million shows that would

1278
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,919
Speaker 4: be fine to write with AI, and people might notice

1279
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:56,280
Speaker 4: the difference.

1280
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 1: But maybe crazy atom maybe for instance.

1281
00:54:58,440 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't want to again, I don't want

1282
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 4: I have to. I have to get a job when

1283
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 4: the strike is over. So I'm not going to say

1284
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 4: anything out loud.

1285
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 1: No, I've never watched Gray's Anatomy, so I wouldn't be

1286
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 1: able to tell you.

1287
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 4: But and I think, I mean, I think that's a

1288
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:09,880
Speaker 4: legitimate fear. I mean the other part of it is

1289
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 4: I just think like, there's something about having things created

1290
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 4: by humans that I think is really important to the

1291
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 4: way we consume art and journalism and any other thing.

1292
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 1: To you, to a lot of people, it's not important

1293
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:23,799
Speaker 1: at all.

1294
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:26,280
Speaker 2: The same people who would happily read a user generate

1295
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:27,880
Speaker 2: a piece of content on buzzfit.

1296
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 1: I don't know and enjoy it.

1297
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:30,759
Speaker 4: I wonder like I do kind of. Jake Kang had

1298
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 4: this great line and a piece he wrote for The

1299
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 4: New York a few weeks ago where he said that, like,

1300
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 4: it's really important to him when he reads an article

1301
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 4: that he's getting angry at a human, like when you

1302
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 4: and Jay is like, as a writer, I love who

1303
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:41,879
Speaker 4: who's Like one of the things he does is get

1304
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:42,400
Speaker 4: really mad.

1305
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:44,840
Speaker 1: At people, and he's mad online.

1306
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:47,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the human component, like the fact that there's

1307
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:49,439
Speaker 4: a human to be mad at, is important to him,

1308
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 4: the fact. And I think you can transperse that to

1309
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 4: all kinds of emotional states that you want to be.

1310
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:55,799
Speaker 4: Let's say this is a hope more than like a

1311
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 4: thing that I absolutely know to be true. This is

1312
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:01,759
Speaker 4: but it's something that I I hope with reason that

1313
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 4: people will feel some kind of difference between watching Let's

1314
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:09,280
Speaker 4: pretend some far future AI could from a single prompt

1315
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:12,040
Speaker 4: create a ten episode, not just the script, the whole thing.

1316
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 4: That there's a difference between watching that and watching something

1317
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 4: that somebody else made right even that, like, even there's

1318
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:20,759
Speaker 4: a difference between you, Joshua, like I really want to

1319
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 4: watch a cyberpunk adaptation of whatever You type that into

1320
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,400
Speaker 4: your TV generating AI and get it that there's a

1321
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 4: difference between that versus something that Mike White typed into

1322
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:34,400
Speaker 4: his thing. I want to write a thing right that,

1323
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 4: even between those two uses of AI, there's a difference that,

1324
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:39,280
Speaker 4: like so much of what we consume, there's this social

1325
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 4: basis to it that I think hasn't quite been worked

1326
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:44,000
Speaker 4: out by places like Netflix. That there's that that they're

1327
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:46,719
Speaker 4: betting on the other half, which is, like you say

1328
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 4: that if we can sufficiently allow the prompt to just

1329
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 4: solve all of these problems, then we're all set. But

1330
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:55,920
Speaker 4: I mean, man, I've been so wrong as I try

1331
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 4: to get people to subscribe to my newsletter about the future.

1332
00:56:57,680 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 4: Let me just say, I'm so wrong all the time.

1333
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 1: But that's good to know.

1334
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 2: People love to read about a guy who's predicted in

1335
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:05,880
Speaker 2: the future, but getting it wrong that's one of their favorite.

1336
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, actually, that's it gives you a person

1337
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:08,280
Speaker 1: to hate online.

1338
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:12,279
Speaker 2: I feel just perhaps, I mean maybe what saves humanity

1339
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 2: is that we need to be mad online, but we

1340
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 2: need to be mad online at someone specifically. We can't

1341
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 2: just be mad online, Like being mad online at an

1342
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 2: AI feels like unproductive, right, just not enough, you know.

1343
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 2: That's that's that's really seizing the means of production, the

1344
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 2: productive anger.

1345
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, all right.

1346
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, we got to wrap up, Max.

1347
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 2: This was really great first off, not surprising, but really enjoyable.

1348
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 2: And I feel like there's about twenty things we didn't

1349
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 2: get to.

1350
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 1: I had.

1351
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 2: I know that during the time that you were talking,

1352
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:43,360
Speaker 2: several times you were saying something, I'm like, I have

1353
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 2: a great, hilarious rebuttal to this, and I didn't get

1354
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 2: a chance to even get there because we got it

1355
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 2: to so many other things. So you got to come

1356
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 2: back and do this again. Yeah, and people can find you.

1357
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 2: You're not on Twitter. You don't You're not on Twitter.

1358
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 4: No, I'm on blue Sky now though I'm.

1359
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:00,600
Speaker 2: Not really uhy, but nobody else is on blue Sky.

1360
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 2: So that's why you can't promote yourself.

1361
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:03,959
Speaker 1: What is your name? On blue Sky. How come people

1362
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 1: find you?

1363
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:07,360
Speaker 4: It's just it's max read dot info. It's my it's

1364
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 4: my personal.

1365
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 1: Lives at r O.

1366
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 4: That's great dot info.

1367
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 2: I'm also I'm also on blue Sky, I should say,

1368
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 2: because that's a cool thing to tell people.

1369
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 1: Josh, wait, Tibolski dot.

1370
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 2: Com is my this is my blue Sky day, which

1371
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 2: is great. You obviously have this great read Max newsletter

1372
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 2: that you can subscribe to. It's on substack.

1373
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:26,560
Speaker 4: The U R L is Max read dot substack dot com.

1374
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:28,440
Speaker 4: And my last name is spelled R E A D

1375
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 4: like a book.

1376
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, we know how to spell read. Do people e

1377
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 1: on the end a lot of the time?

1378
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 4: This is this R E E D sometimes?

1379
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:37,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, I guess I don't think of that read

1380
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 1: at all. What else? Instagram? You don't do Instagram?

1381
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:41,400
Speaker 4: Not really?

1382
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 2: You know, I'm a podcast No, but yeah, I think

1383
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:47,280
Speaker 2: when the I when the higher ups that I heard

1384
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 2: here this, They're going to be like this guy.

1385
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:50,200
Speaker 1: We got to get this guy on the air.

1386
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:51,440
Speaker 4: One can only hope.

1387
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 1: Or a chat GBT equivalent of this guy. No.

1388
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 4: I invite people. I invite people to subscribe to the newsletter.

1389
00:58:57,080 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 4: It's free. I should mention there is a subscription fee.

1390
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:02,000
Speaker 4: You can pay for it, but I write one free

1391
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 4: weekly column.

1392
00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 2: So I think you can get that the Nemesis Sunglass

1393
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 2: Post for free. And I think that if you want

1394
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 2: to go a deeper dive on nemmesis you get that,

1395
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:10,439
Speaker 2: you have to pay a few bucks.

1396
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:12,440
Speaker 4: That's exactly right, and you will after you read the

1397
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 4: Sunglass post, you will want the deeper dive.

1398
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 2: I do think that's a big way to kind of

1399
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 2: dangle the subscription at people.

1400
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 1: To get that.

1401
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 2: That's a glass posts. Anyhow, it's a super fun Thank

1402
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:28,919
Speaker 2: you for taking the time. Well, that is our show

1403
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:31,800
Speaker 2: for this week. I think obviously I've I've concluded the

1404
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 2: conversation and now that I've had nothing left my all

1405
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 2: of my essence has been drained from me. That sounds disgusting, actually,

1406
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 2: but I go into a cryogenic chamber at the end

1407
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:44,240
Speaker 2: of every show and I'm there until the next show,

1408
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 2: so I have to begin my long slumber. We'll be

1409
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 2: back next week with more what future, and as always,

1410
00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:54,360
Speaker 2: I wish you and your family the very best.

1411
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:00,280
Speaker 4: Height