WEBVTT - Part One: That Time Britain Did A Genocide in Ireland 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:06.399 Air horns, air horns, airhorns, pull a lot of airhorns 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:14.280 and straight residence right and yours. I love this one thing. 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:16.320 I have not been to a club in a while, 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:22.880 so I do miss uh that that reggaeton sound. Prop. 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:26.040 How you doing today? This is behind the bastards. I 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:28.840 feel like my Marty going through stuff. But I feel 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:32.680 like you're about to make it increasingly works, so I'm well, yeah, 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:36.880 this is I'm anticipating being very sadden. This isn't gonna 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:40.280 be a happy one. Prop. How do you feel about Ireland? 0:00:47.600 --> 0:00:51.559 I have a lot of feelings about Ireland, Like like, 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:55.120 I feel like Ireland probably got the greatest slang in 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:58.560 the whole wide world. Concredible slang, you know, like y'all 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:03.320 just y'all just hate everybody, you know. I like the pissiness. 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:05.920 I like that you don't take irreverence, you don't take 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:10.480 nothing serious, you know. Yeah, it's the yeah, you know, 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:13.160 when you're doing a contest of like islands where a 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:15.679 lot of bad things have been done to them. Um, 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:19.920 there's a lot of competition, you know. But but but boy, 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:23.320 Ireland really up up up in the let's say, the 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:28.440 top quarter of that pack. They're pretty up there, especially 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:32.480 because like they they wouldn't drafted into white people until 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:35.520 much later. You know, it did take get to be 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:38.920 white too, Like that's cold, that's cold as ice, you know, 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:42.200 saying like we'd the northern part of the same island 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:44.240 and we can't get to be white people. You know 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:48.800 what I'm saying. It's it's it's quite a quite a tale. Um. Now, 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:54.240 how do you feel about the English? Well, I will 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:59.240 say this, they have a track record of just shipping 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:02.720 on the rest of the earth for just the most 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:08.760 efficient just with the greatest efficiency. Like I'm never like, 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:10.639 I don't know how that little island was able to 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.200 shoot on the whole earth as they It'd be fair 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:15.960 to say they're like the New England Patriots of nations. 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:20.280 It really is just the Tom Brady of country. Just 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:24.680 can't lose, I will say, though, you know, yes, I 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:28.720 am in the in the midst of finishing, uh top boy. 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:33.680 So as of right now, I'm like East London, isn't it, 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:35.920 you know what I'm saying, like selling the food. So 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:39.920 right now I'm like, now, granted, I will say this, 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:46.760 I've noticed what made London cool is what made everything 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:50.440 else cool, which is the presence of black people, because 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:54.320 why Top Boy is so dope, it's the Jamaican immigrants 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:57.240 that like created this whole type of slaying. It's calm, bro, 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:01.680 It's that. Yeah, Don'tason, I'm joining is because I'm just like, hey, 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:05.359 black people make everything cool. That's It's a big part 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:11.040 of why London Calling is such a good album. Um. 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:15.760 Now prop today. First off, I'm glad you've been scoping 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:18.480 that because we're really going to need to lean on 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:23.000 the English accents here for comedy relief, because yeah, yeah, 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:24.400 we're gonna have to do a lot of that. I've 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:28.639 been practicing my my posh, so we'll give that a shot. Um. 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:32.680 We're talking today about the thing that is most commonly 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:36.960 called the potato famine. UM. One thing that Irish people 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:39.200 will point out is that there was no such thing 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:42.200 as a potato famine. Um. And the argument that will 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:44.480 make is that, like, well, there was a potato blight, 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:49.880 but Ireland had plenty of food. The famine was entirely caused, 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:52.160 but there it was. It was a famine caused by 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:55.480 English people, right. It was a famine caused by the 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:58.520 the the the ruling class of the British Empire was 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:01.160 not a famine caused by a potato bug and that 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:07.880 is accurate. Um, yeah, yeah it is. Yeah. No, No, 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:09.640 they don't leave it to the Brits to like do 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:15.080 a genocide and blame it on a vegetable. Hey, listen, y'all, 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:18.080 I'll try to tell you we was just doing mine 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:21.479 in our own business and then the potato decided to die. 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:23.480 Yeah what what what? What? What do you want us 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:27.040 to do? The potato made the call like it's calming 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:29.120 all that it is. It is. There's a lot of 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:32.480 different takes you see from empires that commit genocides. You know, 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:35.679 Turkey just decided to pretend that nothing bad ever happened 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:39.200 to Armenian people. Uh. The Germans seemed broadly to have 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:41.880 embraced that they did some bad things. But yeah, they're 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:45.400 down there at least say, okay, guys, the British pointing 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:47.840 to produce in the grocery store and being like, no, 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:51.760 that's what you gotta be angry at. Um. I don't 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:54.160 know if you have a dated somebody who was just 0:04:55.160 --> 0:05:00.640 ferociously never wrong, like would say stuff, that's like there's 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:03.719 being right and then there's being less right. And I 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:08.320 think in this situation, I'm just less right. Yeah, that's 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:12.040 that's that's that's that's England again. Yeah, that's that's that's 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:15.160 the old that's that's old john Bull Um, which is 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:18.680 the thing that people used to call England. Um. So 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:21.599 have you ever have you ever been to Ireland? Prop? No, man, 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:24.360 It's it's on my bucket list. I've been there a bunch. 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:26.880 I love. I love going to Ireland, particularly I really 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:29.080 like Dublin. And if you if you go to Dublin, 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:32.280 which is a beautiful town, um always pretty great too. 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:33.839 I like, there's a lot of great places in Ireland. 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.040 But if you go to Dublin UM and you head 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:39.880 to Custom House K you will see a series of 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:42.720 statues and they're kind of There's like this street, you know, 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:46.000 with a sidewalk next to it, and there's a bunch 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:50.440 of statues of like wraith like human beings marching along 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:53.560 this this little chunk of sidewalk. There's a one of 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:55.840 them has a mother clutching a diving, dying baby to 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:59.280 a breast. The other is like carrying either just like 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:02.080 a past or the corpse of a starved child over 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:05.000 her shoulders and it's it's it sounds terrible. It's the 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:08.880 famine memorial, and it's a really really affecting memorial, and 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:10.599 it's just kind of like in the middle of things, 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:14.560 you know, um, and there It's one of those one 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:17.160 of the reasons I really appreciate that memorials. If you 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:18.839 do spend a lot of time, as I have, in 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:21.920 parts of the world where you come across like starving 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:27.560 people and refugees. It's some whoever made the memorial new 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:30.120 I knew what they were doing, and I think there 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:34.640 was like a conscious attempt to uh like there was 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:38.320 an understanding of like how that looks. It's it's pretty affecting. Um. 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:41.960 So that's what we're going to talk about today, and 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:47.760 it was yeah, yeah, the not a potato famine. Um. 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:51.200 And it is interesting that these and I think what's 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:53.479 sound kind of so compelling about this to me is 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:55.200 that like all of the people who died and the 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:59.040 thing we're about to talk about, um, this this was 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:01.839 I think it's fair to say an act of genocide. 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:04.240 That's certainly something that like one of our main sources 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:07.400 today of Tim pat Coogan, will claim, but it was 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:10.080 not a genocide. That kind of Usually when you have 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:12.280 something like this, it comes as the result of like 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:14.920 a civil war or at least a bloody conflict of 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:17.880 some there's some sort of like fight, um, and then 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:21.400 there is kind of an ethnic cleansing or a killing. UM. 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:24.920 That's not really the case with the Great Hunger. Um. 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:28.320 It's it's more a genocide that's kind of the result 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:32.120 of pure venal greed and free market ideology taken to 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:35.760 the status of a religion. Um. And it's it's it's 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:37.920 quite a tale. We're going to discuss the death toll 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:39.920 a little bit later. For now, I'm just going to 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:44.120 point out that the pre famine population of Ireland was 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:47.600 a little bit less than nine million people. UM. Today 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:51.760 there are just north of five million people in Ireland. UM. 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:55.360 And in fact, last year is when Ireland first reached 0:07:55.480 --> 0:08:00.400 five million in population since the famine. UM it is 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:04.320 probably yeah, it's probably the only nation on earth to 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:11.160 have fewer people today than it did in the eighteen forties. UM. Wow, Yeah, 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:15.920 man's is proper wicked. Brov that the peace for the food. 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:19.520 I'm I'm I'm sorry, like I'm really deep into top 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:22.280 boy right now. That's that's that's fine. I'm I'm very 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:26.720 deep into I'm still gearing up to to try out 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:29.560 my my English accent. We we we dusted it off 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:31.920 for one of the Kissinger episodes and you you were 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:34.160 going off in we were going off a little bit. 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:37.800 We were trying to do that, like and so yeah, 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:40.360 the thing about my like, I know it's bad, but 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:42.920 the best part about like how to do this one 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:46.960 is because it's part Jamaican, So you can kind of 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:50.400 like if you lean to Pat Swa, it's like it's 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:53.280 okay because they're Jamaican immigrants, you know what I'm saying, 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:56.720 So like that's my only out. But at the same time, bro, 0:08:56.960 --> 0:08:59.720 it's calm, bro, like it's not good. I know it's 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:02.640 not good. You know. The best I can do is well, 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:04.680 I don't see why we have to have people who 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:09.439 aren't English on the planet. It doesn't seem really particularly feasible. 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:17.559 But both hand Hannah in apology apologize, I mean yes, 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:19.720 at the same time for a number of this is great, 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:23.400 though I do apologize ahead of time anytime I do 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:27.800 a British accent to Jake, Um, my greatest, my good, my, 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:31.320 my posh. My post British is give them the old 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:35.880 what Fall. There we go nailing it, but the old 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:38.640 what Fall. I will say this though I know this 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:41.160 after touring through the UK enough, like doing music, like 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:44.200 I finally figured out like that there and of course 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:47.920 does that. There's like regional accents, so like I get 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:51.280 it now when you're like in Birmingham, they do the 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:55.520 Birmingham like they got that that that thing. Well, I 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:58.600 think what we can certainly say is that we will 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:01.440 be getting revenge for all of England's crimes by doing 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:06.080 a variety of bad Yeah. Yeah, you was able to 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:09.360 conquer the world. The least you can do is have 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:12.760 to tolerate. Yeah, you're gonna get angry when I mispronounced 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:18.920 Northampton or whatever. Um. So to explain how all of 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:23.760 this happened, um, how like so many people were killed, 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:26.920 um or we're allowed to die, We're gonna have to 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:29.680 go back in history quite a bit to the very 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:32.679 birth of the British Empire um, because in a lot 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:35.880 of ways, Ireland was kind of the first colonial possession 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:41.600 of the Empire. UM. Now, prior to English conquest of Ireland, UM, 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:45.240 the island maintained a history of pretty ferocious independence. It 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:48.120 was never even close to being colonized by the Romans. 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:51.000 They kind of like stop at at Scotland more or less, 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:53.240 like they're trying to get up north, but they build 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:55.840 that wall like it's a mess, you know, trying to 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:59.040 trying to get up that far as you might know. Yeah, 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:07.120 England not super close to Rome. Uh, Ireland, it's already 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:11.360 far just far enough, you know. So you know, the 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:14.200 Ireland pretty pretty much doing its own thing for that 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:16.360 period of time, and then in like ten sixties six 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:19.080 you get the Normans, which are kind of like basically 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:22.760 the French conquer England um. And then after that point, 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:26.040 you know the English kings or Norman kings, right, so 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:29.559 not that long after the Norman's conquered England. In Ireland, 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:33.079 there's this guy, Brian Beru, who is a high king 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:37.160 and he the Normans try to invade Ireland and he 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:40.040 defeats their armies and throws them back um or at 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:42.160 least that's kind of how history is often summarized. The 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:44.360 reality is a lot more complex. But you know this 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:47.720 is not that in depth of an Irish history podcast. 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:50.840 So like most parts of medieval Europe, Ireland, you know, 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:52.839 you've got a bunch of little kingdoms. You've got a 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:55.480 bunch of like different kings, and they're all at war 0:11:55.559 --> 0:12:00.000 with each other pretty often, like most places in the world. Um, 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.960 you got a bunch of people who are fighting with 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.360 each other all the time. Um. And so while the 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:08.160 Normans are in charge in England, there's this Irish king 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:12.080 named Jarmide and mcmurra um and he he gets into 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:14.199 a little bit of a scrap with some of his neighbors. 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:17.160 So he kind of accidentally on purpose kidnaps the wife 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:20.120 of one of his rivals. Um and that doesn't go 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:22.680 great for him, So he he winds up in fighting 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:24.960 the Normans to Ireland to help him deal with this 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:28.880 little squabble. Um, which will prove to have been a mistake. 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:34.080 You don't invite the eye number one. Yeah, So all 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:37.160 this is happening, and like the mid eleven hundreds, right this, 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:40.360 this Irish king is like, hey, Norman's come on over, 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:42.760 help me out. I kidnapped a lady and it didn't 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:45.760 go great for me. Um. And and when the Normans 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:49.400 get invited over to Ireland, there's a pope, right, you know, 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:51.720 popes are a big deal. In the eleven hundreds, there's 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:53.920 not really like that's kind of the only game in 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:56.880 town unless you're going orthodox, right, Like, if you're a Christian, 0:12:56.960 --> 0:12:59.840 it's it's pretty much the popes or nothing. Um. And 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:03.120 the pope at this time was a guy named Adrian 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:05.960 and he's actually the only english person they've ever let 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:08.560 be pope. Um, which might key you went on how 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:10.760 bad an idea it was to let an English person 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:16.480 be the Yeah, this is the last time they try that. 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:19.839 Ship they bring us, they bring a Nazi and to 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:23.000 be pope before they let another British person. I'm like, 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:25.959 and they got they got a pretty spicy track record 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:28.840 for him to be like, I don't know about you know, 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:34.840 that didn't work out at all. Um. So Adrian, uh, 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:38.280 this English pope he uh, the Norman's kind of come 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:40.440 to him and they're like, they work out a deal, 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:43.720 and so he gives the King of England at this point, 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:47.760 Henry the Second a papal bull, which is like, you know, 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:53.280 a pope uh announcement law type deally right, when the 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:57.040 pope declares the thing that's a papal bull kind of Um, 0:13:57.080 --> 0:14:01.880 my Catholic audience is screening at me for inaccurately describing 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:03.680 what a papal bull is. But whatever he issues, this 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:07.200 papal bull that legitimizes their invasion of the Ireland. Um. 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:10.400 And so there's this basically what it what has happened 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:12.640 here is the English Crown have made a deal with 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:16.360 the papacy to colonize Ireland, which is seen as wild 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:20.120 and still pretty pagan. Um. So that's that that that's 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:22.560 what happens at this point when the Normans get invited over, 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:25.920 they make this deal with the Pope to to christianize 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:30.640 the pagan Irish um and to discuss what comes back 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:33.920 for a good practice for the America's, for the America's 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:35.600 for I mean, that's one of the points that like 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:37.800 there's a pretty good book called The Invention of the 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:39.920 White Race that goes into this some more detail. But 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:43.880 like most of the techniques that the British Empire would 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:47.360 use in places in Southeast Asia and Africa in in 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:51.680 the America's, we're kind of tested out in Ireland, right 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:54.880 in the Ireland. Yeah, um. And for what comes next year. 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:57.240 I'm going to read a quote by Irish scholar Tim 0:14:57.280 --> 0:15:00.320 pat Coogan in his book The Famine Plot. From the 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:02.840 Vatican's point of view, the attraction of this arrangement lay 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:04.840 in the fact that Rome would exert its authority through 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:07.240 the appointment of hand picked bishops, rather than having to 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:10.560 struggle to assert its influence over powerful Irish abbots, who 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:13.520 hitherto had often been appointed by the families who controlled 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:16.760 the extensive church lands and monasteries. The attraction for the 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:20.000 Normans was straightforward. It gave them access to Irish Land, which, 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:22.640 with their advances and agriculture, they were able to exploit 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:25.640 far more profitably than where the cattle hurting Irish, and 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.880 so Christ and Caesar came to be hand in glove. Unfortunately, 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:31.200 when Henry the eighth defied the Pope by divorcing his 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:34.000 wife to marry Anne Boleyn, the gloves came off between 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:37.160 King and Pope, with disastrous results for the Irish. From 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:39.520 the time of Henry the Eighth's breaking with Rome, England 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:43.240 became a Protestant nation and Ireland remained a Catholic one. Thus, 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:45.640 apart from the inevitable attempts by a large country to 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:50.520 subordinate a smaller country, England's religious wars became superimposed on Ireland. Also, 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:53.440 not alone would the Catholic Irish lose their lands, they 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:55.360 would also be forced to pay for the upkeep of 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:58.200 the Protestant clergy. Not surprisingly, in a land where the 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:01.240 poet is both feared and revered, Native Irish resentment at 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:04.360 the superimposition of Protestantism found its expression, and a bitter 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:08.920 verse by Rafferty, the famous blind Irish poet, don't talk 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:12.160 of your Protestant minister or his church without temple or state, 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:15.480 for the foundation stone of his religion was the bollox 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:20.000 of Henry the Eighth. Well, pretty good little poem. That's 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:23.080 good that I would love to see. Like, man, I 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:25.520 wish there was like an alternate, like sort of multiverse 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:29.560 timeline where the Irish just rejected the idea of joining whiteness. 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:33.960 It's just if they're just like you know what, man, nah, 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:37.240 fam nah, you know what I'm saying, Like, I just 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:39.920 wonder like where we would be at now. Obviously our 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:42.760 understanding of race being so intermixed with like colorism and 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:44.360 stuff like that, But what if the influence was just 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:48.320 like buck y'all, nah, we ain't one of you, I'm saying, 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:50.240 because of ship like this, where it's like not only 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:52.960 did y'all try to colonize us, you even tried to like, 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:56.080 I mean, y'all sprayes off faith on us to you 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:58.200 know what I'm saying, which was like and then you 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:02.520 were like actually yeah yeah, it's like first of all, 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:06.920 like yeah, just you a subversion of our all fair 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:09.040 you act like you invented something, you know what I'm saying. 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:11.920 So like man ed have been. I would have loved 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:14.400 to have seen some sort of like alternate time line 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:16.520 where Irish were just like black people, like we were 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:19.840 just like well, and there's I mean there's a lot 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:23.080 that like because one of the things that happens. You know, 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:28.080 you've got Aliver Cromwell who invades Ireland, and like if 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:30.480 you look at the Irish countryside, one thing you might 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:33.199 notice is that like there's weirdly not a lot of 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:38.800 like old growth forests or wild animals because they got murdered, 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:43.160 like like Cromwell like kills the land to a significant extent. 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.359 It's like pretty there's a lot of like horrible, terrible, 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:49.480 fucked up war crimes that go on in this period 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:51.439 um and a lot of it's seen as like I 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:53.520 said a little earlier that like there was this attitude 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:56.520 of like there's a lot of like pagan wildness in Ireland. 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:58.879 That doesn't mean that like Christianity isn't there, right, the 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:01.840 Normans of the Catholicture don't bring Christianity to Ireland. It's 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:04.159 been there for quite a while. But there's also this 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:07.640 attitude that like, um, there's something kind of like feral 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:09.800 about the Irish people. You see that a lot in 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:12.080 kind of the way in which these people write about 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:15.640 Ireland in this time. Um, and there is I think 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:20.000 an extent like again, a lot has been written and 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:21.680 that's not really not the focus of this episode, and 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:24.320 like how the Irish became white? And I'm fairly certain 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:28.359 there's actually a book by that title. Um, yeah, But 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:29.840 I learned a lot of that in like my like 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:34.800 undergrad studies, like that the process of like disenfranchising slaves 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:37.240 and like when the it's good stuff and like Shea's 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:39.679 Rebellion and all this stuff that like kind of tied 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:43.280 to whiteness at least in the America's Yeah, but it 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:45.040 is important, like a lot of that does happen in 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.800 the Americas because when you actually look in Ireland, there 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:50.159 is as much as there's histories of other things, there 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:53.760 is a significant history of like rejection of aspects of 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:56.520 that identity, and you see little signs of that and 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:58.159 a bunch of things, including the fact that if you 0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:00.520 go to like a football game in Ireland day, there's 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:01.760 a decent chance you go to see a lot of 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:04.879 Palestinian flags. There's a long history of like kind of 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:08.679 solidarity and whatnot that comes with being a colonized people. Um, 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:10.679 that's not the only thing, because also it's worth noting 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:13.560 that as with like the Scots, shipload of the soldiers 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:16.280 of the British Empire who were doing this whole making 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:18.840 an empire thing are Irish people too. So it's it's 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:23.000 a bunch of stuff is happening. Um. So English domination 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:25.800 of Ireland was not a clean process that didn't happen 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:28.080 all at once. This is going on for a period 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:30.520 of kind of centuries. It's being sort of ironed out. 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:34.359 As a rule. Irish lords ruled most of the land 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:37.119 in Ireland through the twelve hundreds to the early like 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:40.240 sixteen hundreds. Um. And you know it's the stuff we've 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:42.639 been talking about. There's fighting in between these different lords, 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:45.920 there's alliances. Some of them are like backing the English 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:50.639 to like funck over their neighbors. Pretty normal feudalism stuff. Um. 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:54.640 Celtic Ireland, as it's generally called, was divided between four 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:57.199 or five lords at any given time the bulk of 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:00.800 the land um, and they distributed like the land that 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:03.960 was under their control to lower chiefs into like accepts 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:07.600 the in in what we're called land usages and in 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:10.480 exchange for this land. Basically again, it's the pretty normal 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:12.919 feudalism deal. You've got a hand over a portion of 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:15.880 your agricultural produced for the lord, and if there's a war, 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:18.959 you've got to like help, you know, give him bodies. 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:22.840 Basically standard. Yeah, you've got these guys and they got there, 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:25.960 they got their guys. Um. It's it's pretty normal, pretty 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:29.480 normal feudalism stuff, which is not all that different from 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:35.520 organized crime, but with better outfits. Um yeah, like most government. Um. So, 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:37.720 Henry the Eighth becomes king as we discussed, and he 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:40.920 kind of staggers dick first into the history of religion. Um, 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:44.280 that's crazy, Like there was a way I would love 0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:46.560 to be there for the Henry the Eighth story that well, 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:48.240 maybe we'll get to that at one point. That's a 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:50.960 little further back than we usually do. All probably Cromwell. 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:55.040 Probably do Cromwell before we do Henry, because I mean 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:59.359 Cromwell's after. But you know, yeah, I'm just like, listen, 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:03.080 if there's any like sort of if you are, if 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:05.680 you are a Christian or Protestant in any way, shape 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:09.000 or form like you there's no in I don't care 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:11.360 what schout theology is, your hat has to go off 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:15.320 to him to eight. It's an incredible flex like in 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:19.440 that completely, that's amazing. He got to start a denomination 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:22.879 just because because because he needed the pool Namby, he 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:26.280 invented the what is it the Anglican Hirian? Yeah, because 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:32.480 they wanted to fuck differently this look in respect? Do 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:36.920 I like, there's the human humans sit out theology down 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:40.960 for a second? Respect due bro, Yeah, it's it's it's pretty, 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:44.240 it's pretty. It's pretty cool. So one of the things 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:46.760 that Henry the Eighth does because he's he's he's not 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:49.359 happy that the Irish aren't willing to give up their 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:55.320 religion because he wanted to fuck um. And there's other 0:21:55.359 --> 0:21:58.199 stuff like there's a lot of like Irish raids on 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:00.439 the English coast. There's kind of fighting with in Ireland. 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:03.560 So anyway, he decides Ireland has been a troublesome food 0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:06.679 quite enough time, and and he makes a declaration that 0:22:06.760 --> 0:22:09.800 all Irish lands, whether they're owned by Gaelic, Irish or 0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:13.520 English transplants, have to descender, have to surrender their their 0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:15.920 land to the Crown, and then the Crown's going to 0:22:16.040 --> 0:22:17.960 give them back. Right. So what he's doing, he's not 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:19.840 actually trying to take their land away, but he's trying 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:22.560