WEBVTT - Social Media Censorship 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:04.160 President Trump signs an executive order to stop big tech's 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:08.280 censorship of conservatives. Luckily we can sit down with a 0:00:08.320 --> 0:00:12.200 guy who has been fighting that very censorship for many years. 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:21.120 This is Verdict with Ted Cruz. Welcome back to Verdict 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:24.160 with Ted Cruz. I'm Michael Knowles, and the guy who's 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:28.160 been fighting this for many years, coincidentally is Ted Cruz himself. Senator, 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:30.400 nice to see you. Even though we still have to 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:34.720 do this virtually digitally and hopefully without any censorship. Well 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:37.440 let's hope so, but we'll see a big tech pulls 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:41.320 this podcast down. That's right, Senator. I think everybody knows 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:45.440 that big tech has been going after conservatives, and probably 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:47.200 for a lot of people listening to this right now, 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:49.960 they themselves have felt this kind of thing if their 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:52.839 account has been suspended for sharing a conservative view. I mean, 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:54.880 I think, frankly, it's probably happened to all of us 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:57.200 at this point. So we know that there's a problem. 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:00.600 But there's been some debate over how you solve the problem. 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:03.240 Do you pass some new regulation, do you break them 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:06.440 up like their monopoly with antitrust laws, or do you 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:09.680 enforce laws that are already on the books. You focused 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:13.720 in on something called section two thirty of the Communications 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:16.760 Decency Act of nineteen ninety six. The President focused in 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:19.640 on that as well in his executive order. Can you 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:22.720 tell us what that is and how the argument applies 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:25.560 to big tech censorship? Well? Sure, and an answer to 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:28.160 your question about what you do you listed several options. 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:32.520 By answers are yes, yes, and yes. Let's start with 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:35.000 two thirty. What is two thirty? So nineteen ninety six 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:37.760 Congress pass a law passes a law called the Communications 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:41.720 Decency Act. It was actually mainly focused at trying to 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:45.440 regulate Internet porn, but it included a portion in its 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:51.800 section two thirty that gave a special immunity from liability 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:55.400 for big, big tech companies. And here was the reasoning 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:57.800 at the time. Remember this is early, This was right 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:02.000 when the Internet is starting. In fact, one thing, Michael, 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:04.400 you and I have talked about, I was clerking at 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:08.000 the US Supreme Court in nineteen ninety six nineteen ninety 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:13.320 seven when one of the first challenges to congressional regulation 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:16.240 came up, and I told a story in the book 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:19.120 I wrote a few years ago about sitting with a 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:22.560 Supreme Court librarian with my boss chief Justice William rynk 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:26.959 Quist and was Santra Day O'Connor, and the librarian pulled 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:32.040 up hardcore porn to show the justices, and all the 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:34.679 law clerks are there and look, Justice O'Connor was in 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:37.560 her seventies, and I still remember when they pulled up 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:40.680 porn on the screen. Justice O'Connor just went, oh my, 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:44.400 And we're all sitting there like the law clerks are 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:46.680 in our twenties and we're looking at our shoes feeling 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:50.679 really really awkward. And even more awkward is the fact 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:53.120 that when they were last students at Stanford, Rinkquist and 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:56.680 O'Connor were same class. They actually dated for a while. 0:02:57.560 --> 0:03:00.000 He was number one in the class, she was number three. 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:05.639 So picture this, Michael, forty years from now, you're seventy 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:08.840 eighty years old and you're standing in a room with 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:14.320 an ex girlfriend from forty fifty years ago watching porn. 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:16.600 Imagine how awkward it was for the two of that 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:19.320 senator I know and the librarians where I know you've 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:21.440 had a lot of strange experiences in politics. I just 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:23.360 think I have to stop here for a moment to 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:25.840 say that the strangest one I've ever heard from you 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:30.799 is watching hardcore porn with Justice Sandrada O'Connor and her 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:34.840 ex boyfriend William Brnquist. I think that one is absolutely 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:38.720 the top of the list. It was surreal and I 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:43.640 can still hear the oh my like echoing twenty plus 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:47.040 years later. But this was right at the beginning of 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:49.040 the Internet. So you gotta understand justices didn't know what 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:52.120 the Internet was. This was librarians saying, okay, this is 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:55.120 this internet thing. You type in things. I still remember. 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:58.560 In fact, they turned off the filters and to get 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:03.839 to porn, they typed in the world cantelope misspelled and cantalope. 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:07.080 I use use your imagination, but I guess it pulled 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:11.440 up porn and the librarians were trying to show them, Okay, 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:14.680 look it's people can stumble into this accidentally all the time. 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.960 Part of that bill, so it was section two thirty 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:23.480 was designed. You had these little Internet startups and the 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:27.400 idea was, listen, it's not fair to sue a tech 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:31.000 company for something somebody posts on there. Because this is 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:32.880 a forum. This is a public square. And so if 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:37.000 somebody posts something and you sue the internet company, you 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:39.520 could drive them out of business. And it's not the 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:42.240 tech company that's speaking, it's whoever the users are. So 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:46.080 if you post something, the users should be liable, but 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:49.360 not the forums and the and the predicate for this, 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:54.960 this is the policy predicate. Everyone understood big Tech what 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:57.800 we're going to be what are called neutral public fora 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:01.279 In other words, they were going to allow everyone to speak. 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:03.320 It was going to be the new marketplace of ideas, 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:06.359 and so Section two thirty past in the law. But 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:09.800 what it means, you know, Google and Facebook and Twitter 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:13.520 they've got an immunity from liability. Nobody else does you, 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:16.760 Michael Knowles, if you go on the radio and you 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:19.320 to fame someone, you can be sued. Yep, the New 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:21.960 York Times. Do you know that Google and Facebook have 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:24.080 an immunity from liability? The New York Times doesn't have 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:28.480 Fox News, doesn't have everyone else, every American citizen, every 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:32.680 American company. It is only big Tech that gets this 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:36.520 special immunity from liability. So, Senators, this is the distinction 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:39.360 we've heard about a little bit, which is the platform 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:42.200 versus the publisher. Right, if you're a neutral platform, you 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:44.560 get these protections. But if you're a publisher like the 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:47.159 New York Times or the Daily Wire or Fox News 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:50.200 or whatever. Then you don't get those protections. And the 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:52.919 reason for it, of course, is if you could sue 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:56.719 Twitter for every defamatory tweet that has ever been tweeted, 0:05:56.920 --> 0:06:00.679 Twitter would go out of business in approximately five seconds. 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:04.120 That could well be true. But you know the interesting thing. 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:08.320 Let's suppose I wrote an op ed that said, with apologies, 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:17.599 that Michael Knowles has carnal relations with barnyard animals, and 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:23.240 The New York Times published it. And let's assume, and 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:25.440 I'm willing to assume for the sake of the podcast, 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:28.960 that that is a totally false state, thank you, and 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:31.680 that I have no basis that I am willfully being 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:36.239 reckless making it up. You as a citizen, could sue. 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:39.520 You could sue me for defamation, but you could sue 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:42.480 the New York Times because by their choice to publish that, 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:45.800 if they publish something that's defamatory about you, sue the 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:48.640 hell out of them. I do the same thing on 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:50.880 social media. You can't sue the hell out of them. 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:54.719 And the reason is that Congress made a determination twenty 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:58.919 years ago. These are special public form. Now Here's what's changed. 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.320 Big Tech has decided and they've decided it only in 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:04.840 the last couple of years. They don't want to be 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:08.360 neutral anymore. Yeah, they want to be political players. They 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:12.600 want to editorialize, they want to silence voices they don't like, 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:18.560 and so they're deliberately amplifying lefty voices and silencing conservative voices. 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:22.080 And it's okay, fine if they want to do that, fine, 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:25.720 but one of the obvious steps is you don't get 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:29.000 a special immunity from liability that nobody else gets. We're 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:31.440 not going to treat you differently, because if you're going 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:33.520 to behave like the New York Times, you should face 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:39.040 the same risks the New York Times face. That makes sense. 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:44.520 We've heard from some legal scholars on the left or 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:48.080 jurists on the left that really Section two thirty shouldn't 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:51.320 be applied this way. It's not about political stances and 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:54.800 conservatives or abusing this. But but the argument you've just made, 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:57.080 and that you've actually been making for quite some time now, 0:07:57.480 --> 0:07:59.960 is the argument that was made today by Attorney General 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:02.840 William Barr. It's the argument that was made by President Trump. 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:06.400 So it seems that Section two thirty is the key 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:11.200 here to the conservatives argument. To stopping this big tech censorship. 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:13.080 Can you just go into a little bit of the 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:16.400 political debate or maybe how the Trump administration came to 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:20.000 adopt this idea. Look, the simplest thing I have to 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:23.720 say about as executive orders, it's about damn time. I 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:26.840 have literally been urging this administration to do this for 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:29.320 three and a half years. In the last three and 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.080 a half years, you know, Look, I'm in the Senate. 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:34.840 I'm a legislator. I can share hearings. I've shared hearings 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:39.880 highlighting the rampant censorship and political bias. I can introduce legislation. 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:43.720 I've advocated for legislation. But I'm not the executive. It's 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:47.160 the executive that actually has enforcement ability, that that that 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:51.400 actually has prosecutors and grand juries and subpoenas and can 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:54.280 enforce the law. So so I have in the last 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:58.680 three years, I have spent hours meeting with Bill Barr, 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:01.600 the Attorney General, on this topic. I have spent hours 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:04.560 with Jeff Rose and the Deputy Attorney General on this topic. 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:07.360 I've spent hours with Makon del Raheem, the head of 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:10.320 the Antitrust Division at the Department of Justice, on this topic. 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:12.560 I've spent hours with Joe Simons, the head of the 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:14.760 Federal Trade Commission, who I used to work with. I 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:17.640 know Joe very well on this topic. I've spent hours 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:20.360 with the President, with the Vice President, with the White 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:24.520 House Chief of Staff, with the White House Council, urging them. 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:28.880 And here's been the problem everybody. It's not quite in 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:32.720 their jurisdiction. It doesn't quite fit in the neat So 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:34.839 everyone says, yeah, yeah, it's a problem. They've agreed it's 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:37.160 a problem. And by the way, Baron Rosen especially agreed 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:40.959 it's a real problem. But it doesn't fit neatly in 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:45.840 anyone's sort of traditional job description. And so the president Listen, 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:47.959 the President has been frustrated and pissed off about this 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:50.640 for a long time, but nobody on his team has 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:52.920 been willing to do anything about it. Yeah, and so 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:58.480 I do find it kind of ironic that Twitter decided 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:03.240 to be such jackass. Yet, you know, look, my view 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:05.800 has always been in the kind of hierarchy of big tech. 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:10.080 The worst is Google and YouTube, which they own. You know, Google, 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:12.160 their motto used to be don't be evil. Now their 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:17.040 motto is just evil, Yeah, be evil? Right under Google 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:20.360 has been Twitter, and then and then under that is Facebook. 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:23.560 Facebook's pretty bad too, but there's tiny moments where they're trying. 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:27.360 I think Jack Dorsey at Twitter decided, you know what, 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:30.160 I'm tired of Google being the worst player on Earth. 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.400 And so this whole thing was prompted because the idiots 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:38.679 decided to fact check the president's tweet on voter fraud. 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.640 And by the way, number one, they linked to CNN, 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:44.520 which is so profoundly wrong on so many issues it's ridiculous. 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:48.480 But but Twitter, I think just pissed off the president 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:52.360 and thank god they did, because what I assume happened 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:55.360 and I don't know this, but I assume he blew 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:58.520 his top and told everyone, somebody get off your ass 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:02.080 and do something about it, and it motivated them to 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:04.640 finally do this. I'm glad they did. I think this 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:09.200 is an incredible threat. Big tech censorship is the biggest 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:13.920 threat to free speech and to fair elections and democracy. 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:16.319 We got in the whole content, and to Facebook's credit, actually, 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:19.360 Mark Zuckerberg came out today and he said I don't 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:21.960 think that big tech should be the arbiters of truth, 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:25.480 basically directly contradicting Jack Dorsey, a Twitter so, I mean, 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:28.640 that's a good move. You know, just what do we 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:31.280 think the conclusion of this will be. It seems that 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:33.680 the threat would be to get Twitter to back off, 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:36.040 to not interfere in the presidential election, to not put 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:38.600 their thumb on the scales of how information moves around 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:41.800 the Internet. If they don't back off, are we looking 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:44.040 at a world in which Twitter really does lose its 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:47.760 protections and Twitter goes down? Look that I hope so, 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:52.319 although listen, I say I hope so. But I love Twitter. 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:55.760 Twitter is a vehicle to engage in public debates, to 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:59.160 go back and forth. Twitter as a neutral public forum 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:02.680 actually works quite well. It's only recently that they decided 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:06.480 to let their crazy lefty go. And actually, Michael, I'll 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:10.840 tell you Zuckerberg story. Yeah. So, as you know, Zuckerberg 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:13.040 testified in front of the Senate. A lot of us 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:15.040 pounded it. He and I went back and forth in 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:19.320 a very public exchange when he was testifying. Well, last year, 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:24.800 Zuckerberg came to DC and reached out to my office 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:26.520 and asked if I'd be willing to sit down and 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:30.920 get together. Ken I had dinner together, and it was 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:34.000 you know, it was kind of interesting. We thought about 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:36.839 actually going to a restaurant. But to be honest, if 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:39.360 Mark Zuckerberg and I sat down at a restaurant in DC, 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:42.079 people would lose their minds. I mean, I mean, I 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:44.679 think they'd started running around screaming and lighting their hair 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:47.800 on fire. So we didn't do it in a restaurant. 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:51.520 We did it at somebody's house and it was just 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:54.120 it was Zuckerberg and me, and it was a couple 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:55.559 of people on my staff, a couple of people in 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:58.000 his staff. So it was a very small dinner and 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:00.200 it was like three hours long, and it was actually, Look, 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:03.640 it was a lot of fun. Listen, Zuckerberg comes across 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:09.640 as he's a smart, geeky techie, and I'll give him 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:13.080 some credit. Look, he's actually trying to wrestle through these issues. 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:18.280 But look, and to be honest, we went round and 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:23.200 round and round on just what I was advocating was, Look, 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:27.560 how about some basic free speech. How about just let 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.719 the marketplace of ideas? If you disagree with someone, lets 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:34.800 something like, let people argue. Trump tweets all sorts of 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:37.000 things I disagree with. I don't think the answer is 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:40.280 to let some Silicon Valley billionaire silence him. If you 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:44.679 disagree with him, say it, disagree with him, but Zuckerberg 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:50.480 is trying. He actually, shortly after the dinner I had 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:52.880 with him, he gave a speech I think it was 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:58.240 a Georgetown maybe somewhere in DC, advocating principles of free speech. Now, look, 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:01.960 Facebook has been bumpy on this, yeah, but compared to 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:04.920 Twitter and Google, they've been much much better. And you 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:11.520 can see them. Twitter doesn't care anymore. And and by 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:17.280 the way, YouTube, Yeah, CEO of YouTube came by my 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:22.360 office to talk about this, and her attitude was essentially well, 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:24.960 I can't even say it, but it was. It was 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:29.240 screw it. Although although it said more graphically than that yikes. Um, 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:33.280 it was simply we had power and will use power. 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:37.760 And you know what, she actually wanted credit because she said, well, 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:40.880 you know, people on the left want us to completely 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:43.080 silence people were so we're talking about Stephen Crowder as 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:47.120 a friend of ours, um comedian, and and and YouTube 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:51.560 demonetized him. Boy, talk about an Norwellian word. We will 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:59.200 take away all your money. CEO wanted she wanted props 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:01.920 because she said, well, we still allow him to post. 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:05.320 We didn't. We didn't silence him altogether, like what the 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:07.640 hell are you talking? Okay, And she's like, well, that's 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:09.200 what the people that the left wanted us to do. 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:12.360 I said, listen, the calls for censorship are only coming 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:15.720 from the crazy leftists. I'm not asking you to silence 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:19.520 Bernie Sanders right or AOC. God knows, they can prattle 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:22.520 on forever. But let them talk. Their ideas are so bad, 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:27.760 we'll engage with them on substance. Yep. But I am 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:30.240 glad the administration has jumped in. By the way, there 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:32.760 are other things they can do, and a trust agencies 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:36.840 both DIGNFTC have been engaged in investigations. These are monopolies 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:39.640 and their abusing monopoly power. Something else they can do 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:41.960 that's in the executive Order. That's important. It's not just 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:46.440 Section two thirty, but it's it's deceptive trade practices. I'm 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:49.600 really glad the order tells the Attorney General to work 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:52.400 with the state attorneys general. I've also talked at length 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:56.160 with a Texas attorney general who's leading a state lawsuits 0:15:56.160 --> 0:16:01.520 about these deceptive practices. And Bill bar today in the 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:04.160 Oval Office, he said it well, and actually he reflected 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:06.360 a lot of what he and I talked about over breakfast. 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:11.280 He said, Listen, these tech companies have built their platforms 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:14.400 on a lie. They tell people if you come to 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:17.680 our platform, you can speak, and if you sign up 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:21.280 to follow someone, you watch them, you can see what 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:23.240 they post, and if they sign up to follow you, 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:26.360 they can see what you post. That's the fundamental promise, 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:29.600 and that is a lie. We know Twitter shadow bands 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:32.920 if they don't like you. People who say I want 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:35.280 to follow to Michael Knowles, I care what Michael Knowles 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:37.320 has to say. Twitter says no, no, no no, no, no, 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:39.840 no no, We're just going to silently make it go away. 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:43.520 That is a lie. That is fraud. And I'm glad 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:47.480 this executive order takes a step towards real legal liability 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:50.480 for defrauding consumers, which is what big tech is doing. 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:53.360 That's a big key to this whole issue is the dishonesty, 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:57.040 is the fraud, is the very very possible, and it 0:16:57.160 --> 0:17:00.720 seems likely violation of these laws. So it's very good. 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:03.000 We'll see what happens from it. I mean sort of. 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:05.160 The ball now is in the court of big tech. 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:06.960 We'll see how they react to it. I want to 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:10.640 get your opinion on something by the way directly related 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:14.920 to this social media marketplace, which is a few incidents 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:16.880 that have popped up over the last week or so, 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:20.399 and they've really gained national attention because of social media. 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.760 The most prominent one would be the killing of George 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:27.680 Floyd in Minneapolis. The police officer who arrested this man. 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:33.040 You've got a white officer, black perpetrator, I suppose, or 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:38.200 alleged perpetrator, and the suspect ends up dead. That guy's 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:40.040 got his knee on his neck. I mean, it looks 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:43.000 really bad. And then this spreads on social media. Now 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:46.080 there are riots erupting around the country, not even just 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:50.320 in Minneapolis. Also in Los Angeles there is looting going on. 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:54.640 I'd like to get your perspective on that video, from 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:58.600 both a social media perspective, a social perspective, and also 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:03.600 from the perspective of well, what happened in Minneapolis was horrific, 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:06.879 it was wrong. I've watched that video and lest at 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:13.280 anytime you have an incident with police, sometimes the social 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:16.560 media mob is quick to demonize the police officer, and 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:19.720 I've long advocated we should wait for the facts to 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:23.960 play out. That being said, I watched that video and 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:28.080 you had a man in handcuffs on his face and 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:31.840 the pavement with an officer's knee in the back of 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:35.680 his neck pushing it into the pavement. He's gasping for breath, 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:38.840 he's pleading that he can't breathe, and the officer continues 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:42.479 for eight minutes. That is, on the face of it, 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:48.800 police brutality, and anyone who believes in liberty should not 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:54.160 want to see authoritarianism and an authority abuse. The police 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.480 officer has been fired and the Department of Justice is 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:59.520 open an investigation of civil rights investigation. I'm glad they 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:05.280 have watching. That pisses me off. And by the way, 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:09.119 you know, the social media mob is quick to paint 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:12.159 this as far as they're concerned, that was Donald Trump 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:15.640 with his knee on the back of the neck. Let 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:19.480 me be clear, this is Minneapolis, Minnesota. You've got a 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:22.720 democratic mayor, you've got a democratic governor, you've got democratic 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:26.480 senators that this is bright blue. And we keep seeing 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:32.040 these things happen, this abusive power, often in democratic strongholds. 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:38.840 Were people that claim to be interested in defending people's rights. 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:41.480 They're not doing a good job of it, right. I 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:43.479 mean that I think a little bit of perspective here 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:46.440 is key, and it's why it's so good to get 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:48.800 your opinion on this is you're not only somebody with 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:51.760 a Twitter account, but you also happen to know quite 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:54.240 a bit about the way the criminal justice system works, 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:55.960 having worked in it for a long time. I think 0:19:55.960 --> 0:20:00.320 that perspective really helps. We saw a less tragic, much 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:03.800 more frivolous example of this also just a few days earlier, 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:06.760 which was this altercation that happened in Central Park. There 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:10.680 was a man talking to this woman and basically said, 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:13.600 put your dog on a leash. She said no. The man, 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:17.040 for some reason had dog treats in his bag just 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:19.880 for this sort of occasion when people don't know their 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:21.399 dogs on a leash. As he lures them away with 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:24.719 the treats. Then this woman sort of lost her temper 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:27.080 and had a little bit of an emotional meltdown, and 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:29.840 then he started filming it. And you know what was 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:32.680 the end result of this. Nothing happened. I mean, after 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:35.160 the videos went public, then this woman lost her job 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:37.840 and lost her dog. But in the moment itself, it 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:40.680 seemed a little bit like much much ado about nothing. 0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:45.320 The social media mob is what made it so much worse, 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:49.120 so much more sensational. Is that is there a world 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:52.159 in which we should perhaps hope that maybe social media 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:54.920 takes it down a few notches because of this sort 0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:57.840 of emotion that it can gin up. Yeah, look, I 0:20:57.840 --> 0:20:59.919 gotta say I have a little bit different take on it. 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:02.600 There's there's no doubt that that incident showed the power 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:05.960 of social media and that that an iPhone video can 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:09.000 suddenly get millions of views all across the world. Um, 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:12.880 I have to admit the woman who involved, who was involved, 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:17.399 her behavior was atrocious, of course. Yeah. Um, this was 0:21:17.480 --> 0:21:21.120 an individual, an African American individual who was there bird watching, 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:23.520 who at least on the video we saw, didn't do 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:28.119 anything remotely threatening to her. And to watch her be 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:33.960 willing to listen, making a false accusation, yep, deliberately is 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:37.720 an act of violence. And and and when when when 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:40.399 this woman Amy Cooper, picks up her phone and calls 0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:43.920 nine one one and she says, an African American man 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:46.359 is physically threatening me and my dog, and she she 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:50.240 calls in what, by all appearances, is a totally false 0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:54.000 crime report, and it's a dangerous crime report. Listen, if 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:57.359 you call the police and say someone is physically threatening me. 0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:00.880 You are asking for law enforcement to show up with guns, 0:22:00.920 --> 0:22:05.240 and the very real consequence of that could be that 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:10.119 the person you're wrongly accusing gets shot and killed. Listen, 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:15.880 when officers arrived to an assault in progress, that they 0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:19.480 there is a risk of something going really wrong. And 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:22.520 she was in a very real sense in dangering his life. Now, 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:24.359 I gotta say the fact that he had dog treats, 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:25.960 it was trying to feed her dog. If I'm walking 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:27.600 my dog, stay the hell away from my dog and 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:30.320 don't get him dog treats. That that's a little out there. 0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:36.360 But the attitude she expressed were clearly racist. They were 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:39.760 clearly wrong. And and by the way, the same point 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:44.280 I made about Minneapolis holds here. You saw the Twitter 0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:47.760 mob saying, oh this is this is the age of 0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:50.600 Donald Trump. They they blamed Donald Trump for it. Well, 0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:55.920 then the story comes out that, to the shock of nobody, 0:22:56.119 --> 0:22:59.920 she's apparently a liberal Democratic donor who's donated to Brocco 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:03.520 bomb At, a Pete buddhag Edge and a John Kerry, Right, 0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:08.680 and of course she is. But you know, to be honest, well, look, 0:23:08.760 --> 0:23:11.919 actually there is racism on both sides of the aisle. 0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:18.440