Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
Speaker 2: my name is Noah.
Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our
Speaker 3: super producer Dylan, the Tennessee pal Fake and most importantly,
Speaker 3: you are here. That makes this the stuff they don't
Speaker 3: want you to know. It is not only December fifth,
Speaker 3: if you're hearing this the evening this program publishes, it
Speaker 3: is also the rumors are true. Our weekly listener mail Exploration. Oh,
Speaker 3: we've got some good stuff here, laundering schemes or whatever
Speaker 3: they may be, still delicious. We've got some stuff about
Speaker 3: your eyes and where your eyes go. We have a
Speaker 3: great list of episode suggestions at the end of fantastic email.
Speaker 3: Maybe a little about food, waste and retail. Maybe a
Speaker 3: little bit about genetic memory, which I'm really excited to
Speaker 3: explore before we do any of that. I think one
Speaker 3: of us has been to shen Yan, but not all
Speaker 3: of us, is it you, Matt?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, When I lived on Buford Highway, I certainly
Speaker 2: checked it out in the early days. I quite enjoyed
Speaker 2: the show, and then we did some research and in
Speaker 2: some episodes on it, and my whole view of the
Speaker 2: experience was altered.
Speaker 4: Well, it's such an interesting kind of multifaceted thing too,
Speaker 4: because we know that the Foul and Gong movements religious
Speaker 4: movement is an oppressed group in China, but they also
Speaker 4: has really problematic things, you know, and are almost like
Speaker 4: bordering on what one might call it cult. We've talked
Speaker 4: about this pretty extensively, and especially.
Speaker 3: In February of twenty twenty one with our episode what
Speaker 3: is Fallun Gong? We we're incredibly I would say I.
Speaker 4: Completely agree, and we had a listener that referenced that
Speaker 4: exact episode in writing into us about an update to
Speaker 4: that story, which we will hear after this quick briefest
Speaker 4: of breaks. And we returned with the message from call
Speaker 4: me Winter Juniper. Almost three years ago, says Winter Juniper,
Speaker 4: y'all did an episode about Shen Yun and fallon Gong.
Speaker 4: There's an interesting update in that they are now being
Speaker 4: sued for human trafficking. Could this be them finally getting accountability? Well,
Speaker 4: Winter Juniper, we'll talk about just that There's a fabulous
Speaker 4: piece in The New York Times was published on November
Speaker 4: twenty fifth, just a couple of days before We Record Today,
Speaker 4: by Nicole Hong and Michael Rothfeld. The headline is ex
Speaker 4: dancer accuses Shenyon of forced labor and trafficking in lawsuit,
Speaker 4: The former performer, who was recruited to join Shenyon at
Speaker 4: age thirteen, said the prominent dance group coerced children into
Speaker 4: making money for it. The dancer in question is Cheng
Speaker 4: Chun co. A sixty eight page lawsuit was filed in
Speaker 4: Federal District Court in White Plains, New York, where she
Speaker 4: described shen Yun as a forced labor enterprise employing exploitative
Speaker 4: tactics to recruit underage dancers, using threats, public shaming, and
Speaker 4: other coercive tactics in order to generate hundreds of millions
Speaker 4: of dollars in revenue. The article says, just a quick
Speaker 4: quote here. Miss Chang said she was recruited from Taiwan
Speaker 4: to join Shenyun as a dancer at age thirteen in
Speaker 4: two thousand and nine. She performed with the group until
Speaker 4: she left in twenty twenty when she was twenty four.
Speaker 4: Miss Chang sued under a federal law that allows victims
Speaker 4: of forced labor to sue their traffickers. The lawsuits actually
Speaker 4: comes on the heels of another New York Times at
Speaker 4: revelation that Shan Yun's performers had been working under pretty
Speaker 4: significantly abusive conditions for many years. Miss Chang among the
Speaker 4: children who were subjected to these conditions. The New York
Speaker 4: State Department of Labor has an open inquiry into the
Speaker 4: company's labor practices, including its use of child performers. The
Speaker 4: company itself actually claims that the children were not forced
Speaker 4: to join the group, that they were volunteers, and that
Speaker 4: these labor practices do not apply to them. Some of
Speaker 4: the tactics named in the lawsuit included confiscating passports, cutting
Speaker 4: the children off from outside media, publicly shaming and denouncing
Speaker 4: them as Chinese government spies if they dared to question
Speaker 4: the group's practices, and also subjecting those who went against
Speaker 4: these rules to public critique. Sessions organization itself shen Yun,
Speaker 4: which again is a kind of offshoot of the Fallongong
Speaker 4: movement in China, which is sort of a separatist group
Speaker 4: that themselves are subjected often to othering practices by the CCP,
Speaker 4: which we will get into in a little bit, claim
Speaker 4: that these labor practices do not apply to these children
Speaker 4: because they are in fact volunteers, and that they have
Speaker 4: the option to leave any time they want. The Times
Speaker 4: Piece had this to say, many children arrive at Schnyun's headquarters,
Speaker 4: known as Dragon Springs, with little ability to speak English
Speaker 4: and no network in the United States. After being separated
Speaker 4: from their families, they are plunged into a quote system
Speaker 4: of coercion and control that extends to nearly every aspect
Speaker 4: of the dancers' lives. Shin Yun is registered as a nonprofit. However,
Speaker 4: as we mentioned, it is incredibly for profit. It would
Speaker 4: seem I don't quite understand sometimes how these non profits
Speaker 4: do tend to evolve or devolve into being money making operations.
Speaker 4: These recruits, as they're referred to in the lawsuit and
Speaker 4: in the New York Times peace are They originate typically
Speaker 4: at what is called the phi Tian Academy of the Art,
Speaker 4: such as a boarding school inside that Dragon Springs compound
Speaker 4: or Dragon Spring. Yeah, I guess the compound is probably
Speaker 4: the right way to put it, which then feeds into
Speaker 4: a college of the same name, also on the same campus,
Speaker 4: the Phi Tian College. These schools, though, however, seem to
Speaker 4: provide very little in the form of actual education, and
Speaker 4: it's really just a wave for dancers to be subjected
Speaker 4: to very excruciating in long hours of training and rehearsals
Speaker 4: for the show itself. The lawsuit calls this an ongoing
Speaker 4: supply of forced child labor to Nyon without attracting scrutiny.
Speaker 4: Are the operation of these schools, so they're intended to
Speaker 4: do education is in doctrination for the tea of the
Speaker 4: leader Li Hongshi. That's exactly correct. Representatives of shen Yuan
Speaker 4: and Fellongong didn't respond to The New York Times requests
Speaker 4: for comment. However, they have denied these very allegations or
Speaker 4: allegations of this type, saying that labor laws do not
Speaker 4: apply to their underage performers because they are students who
Speaker 4: tour with shen Yuan as a learning opportunity and not
Speaker 4: employees loophole much and that every student participates voluntarily.
Speaker 3: Sure thing, we also do have to look please check
Speaker 3: out our episode on What's going on with Wallungngong, because
Speaker 3: in there we look at some of the actions, and
Speaker 3: I think you're getting to this and some of the
Speaker 3: actions of the CCP just in not to defend any
Speaker 3: kind of just evil labor practices, but it is worth
Speaker 3: a note that at repeated times in the organization's past,
Speaker 3: both in the US and in China and abroad, the
Speaker 3: Chinese government has attempted to infiltrate the organization.
Speaker 4: No question about it. And I think this is actually
Speaker 4: a perfect opportunity to jump to a piece from Vision Times,
Speaker 4: which is a news organization I was not super familiar with,
Speaker 4: and I was maybe a little concerned that there was
Speaker 4: a slight agenda here in the reporting, but it did
Speaker 4: appear to be based in the United States and to
Speaker 4: be a source of uncovering issues in Chinese propaganda and
Speaker 4: how those efforts can kind of proliferate out into the
Speaker 4: wider world. The pieces by Aleena Wong, a native New
Speaker 4: Yorker with a bachelor's degree in corporate communications from Baruq
Speaker 4: College who writes about human rights, politics, tech and society
Speaker 4: headline being inside the CCP's propaganda machine, how Beijing fuels
Speaker 4: disinformation against Fallen Gong and Shin Yun, and just just
Speaker 4: to quote a little bit from here to kind of
Speaker 4: give you the sense. At the heart of this campaign
Speaker 4: lies a network of state owned pawns and foreign facing
Speaker 4: propaganda efforts, including the Beijing Dance Academy BDA and China's
Speaker 4: Ministry of State Security MSS, as they leverage their influence
Speaker 4: and resources to spread falsehoods both within and beyond China's borders.
Speaker 4: The BDA is a state owned art institute that has
Speaker 4: been directly linked to CCP propaganda efforts for many years.
Speaker 4: Ostensibly an educational institution, the BDA actually operates as an
Speaker 4: arm of the regime's broader ideological machinery behind closed doors.
Speaker 3: Just to wrap up.
Speaker 4: According to research by the Fallon Dafa Information Center, the
Speaker 4: academy's leadership is almost entirely composed of CCP members, with
Speaker 4: many holding dual roles both within the school and the
Speaker 4: party committee. The center had this to say, Foreign universities,
Speaker 4: dance programs, and journalists need to be aware of what
Speaker 4: they are engaging with when dealing with the BDA, noting
Speaker 4: that the academy intentionally downplays its party connections and its
Speaker 4: English language training brochures and materials, So it's a tricky
Speaker 4: thing to parse. Because, like you said, Ben you know,
Speaker 4: Fallon Gong is a separatist group. They are subjected to
Speaker 4: a lot of retaliatory actions by the CCP, and.
Speaker 3: Even if they don't see themselves as separatists, their teachings
Speaker 3: are seen as a security concern to the domestic government
Speaker 3: of China. So you'll blake you said, no, It can
Speaker 3: be incredibly frustrating, difficult to parse through what is and
Speaker 3: is not true, especially when you look at the heavy
Speaker 3: accusations Following Gong the organization, or Following daffas it's also called,
Speaker 3: have levied against the government of China.
Speaker 4: That's right, and I think there's there are clearly bad
Speaker 4: actors on both sides here, you know, no question as
Speaker 4: especially as we've seen some of these exposes about some
Speaker 4: of the clearly would would be considered child labor, you know,
Speaker 4: misconduct on the part of Fellongong. And it's kind of
Speaker 4: outreach organization. That's sort of the idea, right. Shan Yun
Speaker 4: is a classical Chinese dance company, and they do have
Speaker 4: this mission to kind of revive Like Matt, I'd be
Speaker 4: interested to hear what the show is like. But the
Speaker 4: idea is to revive China's traditional cultures and to spread
Speaker 4: the sort of history of more ancient Chinese traditions out
Speaker 4: into the wider world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's storytelling, right, it's storytelling very widely, trying to
Speaker 2: get a new vision of what people think about when
Speaker 2: they think China in their head. Right, Because that's one
Speaker 2: of the things we've talked about in this show. You
Speaker 2: have associations with like a country, person, concept and all
Speaker 2: these things, and you've got this little mind cloud that
Speaker 2: gets accessed every time you think about one of those things.
Speaker 2: It's a very different picture than you get in the show,
Speaker 2: at least what you see in the news. So I
Speaker 2: think that's what this thing is, That's what shin Yun
Speaker 2: is meant to be. I don't know, that's my thoughts.
Speaker 3: I agree with you there, because we're what we're seeing
Speaker 3: is you could call it. The more cynical people called
Speaker 3: a psychological operation. Not to entertainment, but propaganda disguised as entertainment,
Speaker 3: And a lot of entertainment is propaganda disguised entertainment. Of course,
Speaker 3: careful where we're throwing those stones. I will note though,
Speaker 3: that the idea one thing you say that stands out here, Matt,
Speaker 3: is maybe an abbreviated way to think about. This is
Speaker 3: a narrative war. We are attempting to redirect narrative, right,
Speaker 3: We're attempting to tell the story that we would the
Speaker 3: way we would prefer to be told.
Speaker 4: And the fact that it's so popular in the wider
Speaker 4: world outside of Beijing, you know, is a red flag
Speaker 4: for the powers to be.
Speaker 3: They don't like that.
Speaker 4: They don't want that narrative to spread. They are all
Speaker 4: about information control.
Speaker 3: They're a long reach too, there's no getting around that.
Speaker 2: I think we talked about the huge Academy of the
Speaker 2: Arts they have in New York. It's like it's not
Speaker 2: upstate New York, but it's you know, it's two hours
Speaker 2: north of the Newark Airport. Let's say, like if you're
Speaker 2: just thinking about where this place is or northwest, but
Speaker 2: it's it's called a face sean I think, or face
Speaker 2: I don't know how to say it. Fei dash t
Speaker 2: I a n Academy of the arts.
Speaker 4: That's right, we were talking about that. That's part of that.
Speaker 4: That's a wing of they've got, like that's where there.
Speaker 4: The New York Times article accuses Foul and Gong of
Speaker 4: beginning its recruitment process for these underage.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, the isolating doctri that's right.
Speaker 2: So it's a two hour drive from the airport. When
Speaker 2: you bring people in, right, you get them to this place.
Speaker 2: And if you look at it on the map, we're
Speaker 2: just I'm in a satellite maps mode thinking about the
Speaker 2: Pokemon ghost story we just did. If you look at
Speaker 2: that compound, it is not you know, it doesn't even
Speaker 2: look like a college campus. It looks like a huge compound.
Speaker 2: And I can imagine if you are taking people's passports,
Speaker 2: you are controlling, you know, isolating them. You don't have
Speaker 2: to do much to isolate them if you got them there,
Speaker 2: because it is in kind of a middle of nowhere
Speaker 2: New York.
Speaker 4: All right, it's got big scientology vibes, got big gold
Speaker 4: Base vibes. Oh yeah, I mean it just occurred to
Speaker 4: me when you were describing it at as a way
Speaker 4: of isolating people, and we know that the scientology likes
Speaker 4: to do that as well. If I think it's gold Base,
Speaker 4: is the one that's in Florida, right, isn't that the.
Speaker 2: Is gold based the one that officially had the residence
Speaker 2: right where like where he was going to come back
Speaker 2: and live or something like that. I can't Remember, there's
Speaker 2: so many bases that they've.
Speaker 3: Gold bases, the headquarters, I think you're sometimes going to
Speaker 3: hear it called Golden Era Productions International Base.
Speaker 4: Also, oh, gold bases in California. It's in Santa Sinzo.
Speaker 4: There's another big, massive compound in Florida.
Speaker 3: They basically like, oh, that's the town that they took over.
Speaker 3: That's right. Is that clear water?
Speaker 4: Clearwater? Thank you. But it does have it just has
Speaker 4: a a It smacks of that cultish kind of indoctrination
Speaker 4: factory where when you have these young people who are
Speaker 4: coming into the country, they don't have any connections outside
Speaker 4: of this organization. They can't speak English. It is rife
Speaker 4: for this level of control and indoctrination. So I hope
Speaker 4: there's no feeling that we are trying to justify any
Speaker 4: of this. We know it was just an opportunity to
Speaker 4: talk about how the CCP sees Fallongong as an enemy
Speaker 4: of the state practically, and there are bad things going
Speaker 4: on in both camps.
Speaker 3: They also be interesting in a very disturbing way to
Speaker 3: see whether the signals toward mass deportation are going to
Speaker 3: apply to following Gong membership, just because again they're in
Speaker 3: a very dec very dicey legal place. So if you're
Speaker 3: hearing this, if you have experience with that organization, please
Speaker 3: be safe.
Speaker 2: Oh for sure. Quick side note, guys, just when I
Speaker 2: was thinking about el Ron Hubbard again in that scientology
Speaker 2: place where he will return, it was some little splinter
Speaker 2: in my mind. That is in some of the teachings
Speaker 2: that we've read about. There's a place called Saint Hill
Speaker 2: Manor in Sussex, West Sussex. I think out in the UK.
Speaker 2: Ell Ron Hubbard owned this mansion a manor, right, and
Speaker 2: that's supposedly where he will return, if and when ell
Speaker 2: Around Hubbards spirit returns.
Speaker 4: I look forward to that day.
Speaker 3: Matt, don't call it a come back.
Speaker 4: No, he's been here for years, hanging around in the wings.
Speaker 3: Guy, I don't know.
Speaker 4: I think this might be something to explore further, maybe
Speaker 4: both sides of what we're talking about here at the
Speaker 4: CCP angle and the separatist Fallonngong movement. It has been
Speaker 4: three years since we did cover this, so there might
Speaker 4: be something worth a bit of an update. I'm not
Speaker 4: sure we might have covered it here. But thank you
Speaker 4: so much to Winter Juniper for writing in and hipping
Speaker 4: us to this update to what was already a very
Speaker 4: fraught and fascinating topic.
Speaker 3: Why don't we take a.
Speaker 4: Quick break, hear a word from our sponsor, and then
Speaker 4: come back with more messages from you.
Speaker 2: And we're back and we're turning to the phone lines.
Speaker 2: Let's hear a message from Chef Donnie, who I attempted
Speaker 2: to call back several times, y'all, because I wanted to
Speaker 2: get more information on this, but we don't have it
Speaker 2: for this episode. If we find out more, we'll let
Speaker 2: you know in the future, because there's a lot of
Speaker 2: questions I'm assuming that we want to ask him. After
Speaker 2: we hear this message, Johnny kept hanging up because he thought, again,
Speaker 2: this happens quite frequently, y'all. Donny thought when we called
Speaker 2: back from the number, that it was just some spammer, right,
Speaker 2: because it is like our number starts with an eight,
Speaker 2: so it looks like an eight hundred number. It was not.
Speaker 2: It was just me sitting in my house trying to
Speaker 2: call you. Do put our number in your phone as
Speaker 2: a contact so you recognize it.
Speaker 4: The void does indeed call you back sometimes, It's true, it,
Speaker 4: Ben says.
Speaker 2: I Chef Donnie had to call back and leave another voiceman.
Speaker 2: I was like, ah, dang it, I'm sorry, but here
Speaker 2: we go. Here is Chef Donnie's original message.
Speaker 5: Hey guys, this is a Chef Donnie. I wanted to
Speaker 5: call about money laundering. You guys were talking about money
Speaker 5: laundering today. That is cool as you're listening. Tuesday, November nineteenth,
Speaker 5: That messages ten. I used to work for a restaurant
Speaker 5: that was in downtown Tall Lake. It was an awesome spot.
Speaker 5: We did like local organic produce, super expensive ingredients, like
Speaker 5: crazy menu, change it all the time, and it was great.
Speaker 5: But we hemorrhaged like twenty thousand dollars a month for years,
Speaker 5: and so the business was going to close and the
Speaker 5: owner decided to sell it. He sold it to a
Speaker 5: very wealthy couple and they came in and they did
Speaker 5: some painting and changed decorations and stuff, but as far
Speaker 5: as like business model goes, they pretty much kept it
Speaker 5: the exact same. And here's where it is crazy. The
Speaker 5: conspiracy among the employees is these people are so extremely wealthy.
Speaker 5: The husband is a he's like a co owner of
Speaker 5: a bank in Salt Lake City, so they are they're
Speaker 5: pretty much infinite money goaged people. So what do you
Speaker 5: do when you have so much money and the only
Speaker 5: way you really can get more is to avoid taxes? Right,
Speaker 5: So go buy a restaurant that's losing money and keep
Speaker 5: it that way because now you're spending money on business extent.
Speaker 5: You know, it doesn't matter. All my restaurant lost thirty
Speaker 5: grand this month, but that's thirty grand lessing taxes I
Speaker 5: have to pay as an individual. Very interesting, and I
Speaker 5: know it gets a little more complicated when you get
Speaker 5: into like individuals and businesses and entities, but that's the conspiracy.
Speaker 5: Feel free to use my voice or whatever. You can
Speaker 5: put the san in or throw it away, at least
Speaker 5: respond I love you guys, all right, fine.
Speaker 4: We love you too, Chef Donnie.
Speaker 3: I think, Chef Donnie, that's a great question.
Speaker 2: Yeah it is. I love that. Please respall I love
Speaker 2: you guys, but this is Chef Donnie.
Speaker 4: Guys.
Speaker 2: I thought this spoke to a lot of things that
Speaker 2: we've discussed in the past. Specifically, you know that money
Speaker 2: laundering scheme, but in this case, just a tax avoidance scheme.
Speaker 2: And it does. It resonates, I think with some of
Speaker 2: the things we've discussed before, where you can write so
Speaker 2: many things off as a tax loss or perhaps.
Speaker 4: As a loss it gives you, it sucks up some
Speaker 4: tax liability.
Speaker 3: And it's also legal. The difference between the two phrases
Speaker 3: tax avoidance You probably already know this, Chef Donny. But
Speaker 3: tax avoidance is all the stuff you can do that
Speaker 3: is legal. Tax evasion is all the stuff you do
Speaker 3: that is, for one reason or another considered illegal. Hmmm,
Speaker 3: up to an including just not paying your taxes Like sorry, irs,
Speaker 3: I didn't know I couldn't do that.
Speaker 6: Wow.
Speaker 2: Man, Well, in this case, I feel like this is
Speaker 2: a pretty good win for everybody. If some wealthy person
Speaker 2: can run a like a good restaurant, maybe that's a
Speaker 2: delight to go to once a year. Somebody you know
Speaker 2: who doesn't have an infinite money glitch the way, maybe
Speaker 2: maybe a co owner of a bank, does you at
Speaker 2: least get some great food again to stay open, and
Speaker 2: even though it's losing money, it's actually, I don't know,
Speaker 2: helping the wealthy person stay afloat feels like a good
Speaker 2: thing to me, but also a weird loophole.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it makes me think of I think
Speaker 4: it was pretty recently that this came up again, as
Speaker 4: it often does the idea of going into that restaurant
Speaker 4: that is a little bit abandoned feeling, and when you
Speaker 4: order some food they kind of look at you as scants.
Speaker 4: It's sort of like almost a cliche, the idea of
Speaker 4: like these sort of front operations.
Speaker 2: Every dollar you spend is less money than they get
Speaker 2: to write off on taxes.
Speaker 4: Yeah, helly, what are you doing. Get out of here.
Speaker 3: I've got a suppering up. I do love those places,
Speaker 3: and I'm glad you gave him a shout out. And
Speaker 3: there's also the idea here, or the differentiating factor there
Speaker 3: would be the places we're talking about, or maybe fronts
Speaker 3: for organized crime. To put a fine point on it,
Speaker 3: and in this case, as it was described earlier, possible
Speaker 3: win win for folks involved. It's a case of ulterior motive. Right,
Speaker 3: we got the restaurant because we want it to be around,
Speaker 3: but we don't want it to do super well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you could also funnel some money through there.
Speaker 2: You know, that could be almost like laundering in a
Speaker 2: way if you want it in that We're not.
Speaker 3: Saying that it is it's like money laundering in that
Speaker 3: it is.
Speaker 2: Well, I guess it just depends on Yeah, it depends
Speaker 2: on the purpose and how you do it, and there's
Speaker 2: a lot.
Speaker 3: Of order of operations.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of stuff there. But potentially it
Speaker 2: could be both.
Speaker 3: But there's also you know, the restaurant industry itself is
Speaker 3: such a cutthroat business. It's incredibly difficult to make it
Speaker 3: in restaurants are in hospitality because of numerous numerous factors.
Speaker 3: I'm always impressed when I see restaurant tours and even
Speaker 3: more so when I see self made chefs, because talk
Speaker 3: about serious you know what I mean, Like, there's not
Speaker 3: an off time for those folks.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very true, especially for the staff, you know, the
Speaker 2: actual human beings that run them, the people who own them.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's a little different situation. All right, Well, hey,
Speaker 2: there you go, Chef Donnie, let us know what the
Speaker 2: restaurant is. Maybe I don't know, or maybe you can
Speaker 2: track it down figure out which restaurant chef Donnie's talking about.
Speaker 2: That would be fun. Then we could all go there
Speaker 2: and just like order way too much money's worth of
Speaker 2: food and drinks and just see what happens.
Speaker 3: Love love firsthand investigations all about a side quest. Got
Speaker 3: some stuff going on in Knoxville in fact, we're gonna
Speaker 3: be on the road a little bit more than twenty
Speaker 3: twenty five man. So yeah, you know, want it right
Speaker 3: into us, give us a link or something like that,
Speaker 3: and we can keep it anonymous, you know, but you
Speaker 3: might have some interesting guys show up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. We'll just do a meet up at
Speaker 2: that restaurant at some point at Salt Lake. All right,
Speaker 2: let's jump one more time to the phone lines and
Speaker 2: here from Valerie. Here we go.
Speaker 6: Hey, guys, it's Valerie again in the Samandoa Valley. Sorry
Speaker 6: to call again. I was thinking about your episode on
Speaker 6: November twelfth where you talked about eye tracking and you
Speaker 6: guys should do well. I'm not going to tell you
Speaker 6: what to do. Sorry, that was rude. This thing called
Speaker 6: E MDR therapy that has been around for a long
Speaker 6: time and it has a ton of research. It initially
Speaker 6: was used for veterans with post traumatic stress and has
Speaker 6: since over the years been applied to all kinds of trauma.
Speaker 6: It stands for I movement, desensitization and reprocessing. I know
Speaker 6: a little about it. I don't provide that therapeutic service,
Speaker 6: not trained for it. But I was listening to your
Speaker 6: podcast and I was like, gosh, I have to call
Speaker 6: these guys and tell them about that, because when they're
Speaker 6: talking about ies being tracked and stuff, this is pretty interesting. Anyway,
Speaker 6: Sorry to take up all your voicemail. I hope you
Speaker 6: guys are doing great and have a good week.
Speaker 3: Oh thanks, Valerie, you too.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Valerie is called in a couple of times now.
Speaker 2: Valerie is a psychotherapist in private practice out there in
Speaker 2: the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia. Very cool said some very
Speaker 2: kind things in the past. We definitely appreciate those. Valerie
Speaker 2: and I did not know about this, guys. I've never
Speaker 2: heard of em d R therapy until Valerie mentioned it.
Speaker 2: Are you guys? Were you guys aware of it before.
Speaker 3: This only due to look like we're saying with PTSD,
Speaker 3: only due to some veteran friends, but never personally experienced it.
Speaker 3: Definitely don't know a ton about it, to be honest.
Speaker 2: Oh dude, I knew nothing about this.
Speaker 4: I believe it came up and with a previous therapist
Speaker 4: that I had just in conversation, just like as sort
Speaker 4: of like a thing that maybe I wasn't familiar with
Speaker 4: when we were talking about different forms of like regression
Speaker 4: type of therapy.
Speaker 2: Oh interesting, Okay, so it does feel like maybe this
Speaker 2: is a cousin of some type of regression therapy, almost hypnosis.
Speaker 4: To a degree. That's and that's sort of the context
Speaker 4: in which it came up. I was just asking about
Speaker 4: that sort of thing, and it was like someone something there.
Speaker 6: It was.
Speaker 4: It was not like something we were going to do.
Speaker 4: I was just asking about different forms of that kind
Speaker 4: of therapy.
Speaker 2: Well, this is so, this is this is fascinating, y'all.
Speaker 2: Let's define it, at least as in the way that
Speaker 2: the EMDR Institute Incorporated defines it, which was founded by
Speaker 2: Francine Shapiro, PhD, by the way, and you can go
Speaker 2: to their website and find this if you want em
Speaker 2: DR dot com. It says i Movement desensitization and reprocessing
Speaker 2: or EMDR, is a psychotherapy treatment that is designed to
Speaker 2: alleviate the distress associated with traumatic memories. And when I
Speaker 2: started reading about this, guys, you know what, it reminded
Speaker 2: me of what's up the scene in Get Out and
Speaker 2: the technique in the film get Out where the tea
Speaker 2: cup is moved around in a and you focus on
Speaker 2: the teacup and specifically the sound of the teacup while
Speaker 2: you are simultaneously remembering something that is traumatic to you
Speaker 2: a moment in your life.
Speaker 3: Sure.
Speaker 2: Now, in this case, I don't think the point is
Speaker 2: to send you into the deep place or whatever the
Speaker 2: termination sunken place, but it does feel as though it
Speaker 2: is meant to take your mind to a different place
Speaker 2: and create other associations with a specific traumatic thing that
Speaker 2: has happened to you. On that website, they give the
Speaker 2: example of someone who has experienced sexual assault, so that
Speaker 2: basically you are shown an image in one part of
Speaker 2: like your vision, that is associated directly with your traumatic memory.
Speaker 2: Then you are meant to track your eyes away from
Speaker 2: that image and focus on other things, stuff that's more positive,
Speaker 2: stuff that's more interfacing, right, or when I say that,
Speaker 2: not interfacing but inner facing, inward extrospective, and then changes
Speaker 2: that the feeling that you have and the associations you
Speaker 2: have with this specific thing more to about empowerment, self
Speaker 2: determination and those kinds of things rather than the scary
Speaker 2: thing that you experienced in the past. I don't know,
Speaker 2: it seems pretty interesting and I kind of want to
Speaker 2: check this thing out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, give it a try, Right, It's it's fascinating too,
Speaker 3: because we know that the human mind is something the
Speaker 3: human mind still itself doesn't understand, and often people have
Speaker 3: to endeavor to explore various different kinds of therapeutic treatment
Speaker 3: before they find something that really clicks with them. So
Speaker 3: this is also somewhat of a PSA from non medical professionals.
Speaker 3: If you are in therapy or you're addressing some sort
Speaker 3: of thing going on in your past, present, or your
Speaker 3: life and the first for out doesn't quite do it before,
Speaker 3: you don't get discouraged. There are multiple resources and solutions
Speaker 3: out there, and if this is helping anyone, then I
Speaker 3: say it's worthwhile.
Speaker 4: You know, well, can I just say I had a
Speaker 4: therapist for almost an entire year who I thought was
Speaker 4: pretty good until I decided to try something else. After
Speaker 4: this person went on hiatus for a while and after
Speaker 4: finding somebody new, I kind of realized that the person
Speaker 4: I had before wasn't very good at least for me
Speaker 4: at all. And I would never have really known that
Speaker 4: unless I had tried something different. So don't feel like
Speaker 4: you're stuck or you owe it to this person to
Speaker 4: stick with them for the long haul. If you feel
Speaker 4: like there's more that you could be doing for yourself.
Speaker 2: Wow, dude, there's stuff in here that almost feels like
Speaker 2: in the moment ASMR. Things like taps, tones that are
Speaker 2: played to change associations, specific eye movements, like instructions for
Speaker 2: eye movements while you are thinking about a negative thought.
Speaker 2: Oh man, definitely check this out if you're interested in
Speaker 2: this stuff or you are experiencing post traumatic stress disorder.
Speaker 2: This definitely seems interesting. We don't know anything about it
Speaker 2: other than what we're reading and you know what we've
Speaker 2: been told, but it definitely seems like a fascinating, I
Speaker 2: don't know how fascinating at least something to attempt.
Speaker 3: I'm looking into clinical trials and it seems like there's
Speaker 3: a pretty good track record of those since dating back
Speaker 3: to nineteen eighty nine, so there's definitely some efficacious sand
Speaker 3: to it.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, all right, Well, hey, that's it. Thank you
Speaker 2: so much, Valerie, Thank you so much, Chef Donnie. We'll
Speaker 2: be right back with more messages from you. After some
Speaker 2: messages from the ad folks.
Speaker 3: And we have returned with our dear friend, Conspiracy realist
Speaker 3: going by Headmaster asked a question that I find quite intriguing.
Speaker 5: Here we go, I did not turn back.
Speaker 7: If that master again, you could use my voice if
Speaker 7: you wish. This is a call of basically ask a
Speaker 7: question of what you guys think now. I was listening
Speaker 7: to your listener Mail episode. I think it was your
Speaker 7: last one. As of the airing date, it is November
Speaker 7: twenty six, twenty twenty four. I'm calling you at twenty
Speaker 7: forty eight hours, so that's eight forty eight pm. I
Speaker 7: just wanted to say or ask you guys, do you
Speaker 7: think genetic memory is a thing? And the reason why
Speaker 7: I'm asking is because in your cold open to your
Speaker 7: listener mail episode, you were discussing cats being afraid of seupcumbers. Well,
Speaker 7: no one told cats to be a read with septumbers.
Speaker 7: They instinctively know or think that it's a predator. So
Speaker 7: if they instinctively know that it's a predator, how did
Speaker 7: that instinct get there? And is instinct a form of
Speaker 7: genetic memory? To answer that, I don't know if anyone
Speaker 7: can answer that. I tried googling it and I got
Speaker 7: a whole bunch of weird responds, So thought i'd kick
Speaker 7: it up to you guys and see what you came
Speaker 7: up with. Anyway, I'll let you guys, go Jeffer now.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Headmaster. Oh I love that example
Speaker 3: because it takes us in so many fascinating directions. I
Speaker 3: was you probably hear me muttering Heath Ledger style from
Speaker 3: The Dark Knight on some of that stuff. But yeah,
Speaker 3: always love to hear response to a listener mail segment
Speaker 3: because this might inform an episode on the concept of
Speaker 3: not just genetic memory, but epigenetics. Going somewhere with this,
Speaker 3: you guys ever heard the idea that newborns instinctively know
Speaker 3: how to swim? Well?
Speaker 4: I heard learned that from the cover of the seminal
Speaker 4: nineteen nineties Nirvana album Nevermind.
Speaker 3: Ah. Yes, yeah. There is a great deal of controversy
Speaker 3: about this on the sci fi level. The furthest extension
Speaker 3: of it genetic memory would be the argument that you could,
Speaker 3: by nature of your lineage, your biology, and your genetic
Speaker 3: structure have specific memories. Right that you could be born
Speaker 3: or rotten too the world and know exactly where the
Speaker 3: best pizza is in Salt Lake City, and you could
Speaker 3: you would know it from cradle to grave. That has
Speaker 3: not been proven to exist, but a lot of people
Speaker 3: like the idea of this of genetic memory. And unfortunately,
Speaker 3: at different times this somewhat Lamarckian concept has been weaponized,
Speaker 3: has been used to justify very terrible things, right like
Speaker 3: eugenics and so on. To step back there, the idea
Speaker 3: of Lamarckian evolution is a pre existing theory for Darwinism,
Speaker 3: where they you would call it spontaneous generation. We have
Speaker 3: a couple episodes of ridiculous history about this, the idea
Speaker 3: that if you have a bunch of gray in a
Speaker 3: barrel and you leave it alone for long enough, then
Speaker 3: rats will just happen. The grain will create the rats.
Speaker 3: It sounds, you know, a little bit simplified now with
Speaker 3: the benefit of retrospect. But the fact of the matter
Speaker 3: is that people took that as leading scientific theory for
Speaker 3: a long time. We get to other things with genetic
Speaker 3: memory before we continue. First I have to ask you guys,
Speaker 3: in full disclosure, do you have any specific genetic memories? Well, yeah,
Speaker 3: it's hard to always new.
Speaker 4: It's hard, like I because you know, the idea of
Speaker 4: remembering being a baby is also controversial, you know, like
Speaker 4: what some people claim they remember being born and things
Speaker 4: like that, to which many would roll their eyes a
Speaker 4: bit and say I don't know about that. That sounds
Speaker 4: very wish fulfillment kind of, you know, I don't know,
Speaker 4: I mean, and I love the question that the listener
Speaker 4: posed about. Is this the same as instinct? Because this
Speaker 4: all kind of goes back into like the products of evolution.
Speaker 4: I mean, you could argue that evolutionary traits are a
Speaker 4: form of genetic memory, because you know, a particular type
Speaker 4: of species evolves because a thing happens to it over
Speaker 4: and over and over again to the point where it
Speaker 4: changes it.
Speaker 3: Well, how do the how do the baby turtles on
Speaker 3: the shoreline know they got to run fast af for
Speaker 3: the ocean the salmon?
Speaker 6: You know?
Speaker 4: How do they know the strange swum upstream and all
Speaker 4: of that?
Speaker 3: How to eels even do the thing? Right? We figured
Speaker 3: out the answer that that's the story for a different day.
Speaker 3: They developed their sexual organs at certain times.
Speaker 2: I remember the pounding of war drums across the hills
Speaker 2: in Middlesbrough.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't. It's hard to answer that question, though, Ben,
Speaker 4: I think is what I'm getting at, because it's like
Speaker 4: it's not a memory per se as much as it
Speaker 4: is just like an innate thing.
Speaker 3: You know, A tableau is sensation influence towards a certain
Speaker 3: set of a vibes. Yeah. Yeah, And you know what,
Speaker 3: this gets us into the arguments that are a little
Speaker 3: more spiritual and philosophical, the idea of reincarnation. I mean,
Speaker 3: I've said it before on the show, so I'll say
Speaker 3: it again. I do have a couple of memories I
Speaker 3: can't explain. I don't think that's necessarily supernatural. I just
Speaker 3: you know, I've been around a while and a lot
Speaker 3: of stuff has happened. But then there's also the idea
Speaker 3: that we need to emphasize this Headmaster. The idea of
Speaker 3: inherited or genetic memory is partially difficult to really understand
Speaker 3: because memory is so treacherous. You are the least reliable
Speaker 3: eyewitness of your past because every time you remember something,
Speaker 3: what you're doing neurologically is encountering the last time you
Speaker 3: remembered it, and so, like a copy of a copy,
Speaker 3: sometimes things shift, which goes back to the idea of
Speaker 3: therapeutic intervention, which can change some of those associations for
Speaker 3: good or for ill, hopefully for good.
Speaker 2: That's why you write everything down, take copious notes on
Speaker 2: everything you do and every interaction, and make recordings of
Speaker 2: all of it, so you can go back in time
Speaker 2: and use your AI interface in five years from now.
Speaker 2: I'm just joking, but it is it is actually that
Speaker 2: this concept that Ben is describing there. It is the
Speaker 2: reason that I take notes on literally everything now because
Speaker 2: I am nervous that I misremember things, because we know
Speaker 2: that we do so, like it's why doctor's writing notes
Speaker 2: is so important, y'all.
Speaker 3: And defensive doctors sometimes, you know, they don't deserve that
Speaker 3: aspersion about having uniformly bad handwriting. Perhaps the're writing in
Speaker 3: Latin guys, you know, shorthand it's not always someone else's fault,
Speaker 3: you know. So this is Yeah. I love that we're
Speaker 3: bringing this up because you can go check out our
Speaker 3: twenty twenty two episode How to Change People's Memories that
Speaker 3: will be of interest if you haven't heard it yet Headmaster.
Speaker 3: You can also check out your Brain on Love and
Speaker 3: a couple of other pretty kick ass videos series we
Speaker 3: did about this this concept. But that's the context of
Speaker 3: the concept. One of the best questions to answer with
Speaker 3: regard to genetic memory is language. You know, there have
Speaker 3: been previous experiments in evenings past to raise human children
Speaker 3: without any outside intervention and they will you remember this
Speaker 3: one to see if they naturally spoke a language. Was
Speaker 3: it the language of God? Was it a language based
Speaker 3: on who their parents were and the languages they spoke.
Speaker 3: Very bad stuff to do to kids. But we also
Speaker 3: have learned that children born in a particular country are
Speaker 3: not genetically predisposed to speak the language of that country.
Speaker 3: Like being born in China or Bhutan, or being born
Speaker 3: in Tuvalu or Guatemala doesn't mean you're gonna speak Spanish
Speaker 3: or Mandarin, et cetera. Better, You'll just have more opportunities
Speaker 3: to learn it right.
Speaker 4: Or there's even like arguments about, like, you know, how
Speaker 4: maybe human beings are born within innate ability to astrally
Speaker 4: project their consciousness, you know, or to in some way
Speaker 4: commune with you know, spiritual entities or what have you,
Speaker 4: and they're a young and super competent we but that
Speaker 4: we are taught to not do that right because it's
Speaker 4: not reinforced and we're not in a society that accepts
Speaker 4: that that's a thing. There are studies into that kind
Speaker 4: of stuff that maybe there are innate parts of our
Speaker 4: brain that are capable of such things, but they're sort
Speaker 4: of shut down by the environments that we find ourselves in.
Speaker 3: They're also formative learning stages. And I love that point.
Speaker 3: So if you don't learn a language by a certain
Speaker 3: point and your neurotypical human being, it's going to be
Speaker 3: tremendously difficult for you to learn any language after that?
Speaker 4: Is it because of brain like elasticity and things like that?
Speaker 4: Like you just sort of get it gets a little
Speaker 4: made for lack of Maybe I'm over simplifying, but your
Speaker 4: pathway is just get a little bit more rigid as
Speaker 4: you get older personally.
Speaker 3: It also seems that there are optimal times to learn
Speaker 3: some stuff right in what we call these various formatives stages.
Speaker 3: We also I love that you're bringing up and all
Speaker 3: the point about possibly having certain aspects or aptitudes shut down, right, Like,
Speaker 3: could you and this is a thought experiment here, could
Speaker 3: you encourage if you throw ethics out the window Russian style?
Speaker 3: Could you take a group of human children and by
Speaker 3: raising them, encourage them to develop something like sennastasia. Could
Speaker 3: you just create those associations that then become physiological pathways
Speaker 3: in the break the same way that the hippocampus of
Speaker 3: someone who is a lending cab driver, for decades will
Speaker 3: physically be larger than average. This kind of stuff is possible. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 3: the knowledge what a cool name. But in either case
Speaker 3: that doesn't really answer your question, headmaster. We found something weird.
Speaker 3: You might dig it if you don't know about this already.
Speaker 3: Epigenetics and the sins and experiences of the past carrying
Speaker 3: over from generation to generation. This is possibly the closest
Speaker 3: thing we have to something like genetic memory. Back in
Speaker 3: twenty thirteen, guys, there was a study with a super
Speaker 3: sexy name parental olfactory experience influences behavior and neural structure
Speaker 3: and subsequent generations. So shout out to Brian Ds and
Speaker 3: carry wrestler. What they found was this, and they didn't
Speaker 3: do humans that we know of, but they trained mice
Speaker 3: to fear a specific smell to just lose their stuff.
Speaker 3: This is torturous for the mice. These are innocent mice too.
Speaker 3: These are not like war criminal rodents. These are not
Speaker 3: the kissingers of nim or anything like that. But they
Speaker 3: are trained, through various behavioral methods to freak the f
Speaker 3: out when they encounter this smell, this ol factory stimulus.
Speaker 3: And what the researchers found is that later when they
Speaker 3: allowed or forced those mice to read their children, the
Speaker 3: subsequent generation without any intervention would have that same deep rooted,
Speaker 3: primal fear of that smell.
Speaker 2: Whoa was it like cool water or something?
Speaker 3: It was dracar and war God knew well.
Speaker 4: But so many of those things are defense mechanisms, you
Speaker 4: know that are Again I'm sorry if I'm combining these
Speaker 4: concepts incorrectly, but it just feels like evolutionary to me
Speaker 4: that the things that stick around are the most beneficial
Speaker 4: to the individuals who are members of a species or whatever.
Speaker 2: That's mind blowing that occurred, that that study occurred, and
Speaker 2: it worked right in putting that in that memory into
Speaker 2: an offspring. I want to give a counterpoint to the
Speaker 2: cat's cucumber thing because I and I don't know if
Speaker 2: maybe this is this person is just wrong that I'm
Speaker 2: reading about, but I I always get confused with these
Speaker 2: things because it feels right to me. Cats react to
Speaker 2: those cucumbers because they think it's some kind of predator
Speaker 2: behind them, right.
Speaker 4: Would have been it?
Speaker 2: And they remember but where they're just startled that see
Speaker 2: that's this is the thing? Is it? Is it one
Speaker 2: or the other? Is it both?
Speaker 4: The cats are hard to startle though, they're so cool
Speaker 4: and like I'm collecting no o.
Speaker 2: Well, listen, this is this is doctor Pamela Perry from
Speaker 2: the Cornell Feline Health Center behavioralist specialist. She says in
Speaker 2: an article you can find on vet dot Cornell dot edu. Quote,
Speaker 2: cats don't have a natural fear of snakes. In fact,
Speaker 2: a lot of them hunt snakes.
Speaker 6: They do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, cats have different personalities. It might be the fearful
Speaker 2: ones she's speaking about these videos. It might be the
Speaker 2: fearful ones are most likely to react to the appearance
Speaker 2: of a novel object behind them that was not there
Speaker 2: a minute earlier. So is it the appearance of something
Speaker 2: that is you know, all of a sudden they are
Speaker 2: like Ben, like like Ben was just saying, or is it?
Speaker 2: Or is it a snake? And how the heck? Like,
Speaker 2: who's going to put a bunch of money behind testing
Speaker 2: that and to figure out if cats actually are fearful
Speaker 2: of a thing that appears to be a potential predator
Speaker 2: behind them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good question, and I'd like to I
Speaker 3: think that can apply across different organisms. The reason to
Speaker 3: take it to the mice, The reason this is so
Speaker 3: fascinating is because one the best way to encode memory
Speaker 3: in a lot of mammals is smell. That's why Pruce
Speaker 3: wrote Taste of Things Remembered. It's all about how he
Speaker 3: eats a mattelin dipped in tea or something like that.
Speaker 3: And then he's like, here's a novel that definitely I
Speaker 3: will not allow to be edited because it goes on anyway.
Speaker 3: If you want to learn more about the mice experiment,
Speaker 3: please check out. If you don't want to pony up
Speaker 3: for the paper, which is solid research, check out Smithsonian.
Speaker 3: Rachel newer in Uwer wrote a great article about this
Speaker 3: great primer from twenty thirteen.
Speaker 2: Do we know what the smell was like? That that
Speaker 2: could be intriguing to me? Like, is it a fully
Speaker 2: novel smell that they would never encounter kind of thing?
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, you're anticipating this is what we're getting too.
Speaker 3: The smell is a seed of finone A C E
Speaker 3: T O P H E N O N E. I
Speaker 3: do not know exactly what that smell's like. Yeah, we
Speaker 3: know it's used in resins and different fragrances, so it's
Speaker 3: something you could get your hands on. But if I
Speaker 3: if we're looking at this idea. I think we would
Speaker 3: need to first off say it's not it's not sulfurous,
Speaker 3: it's not what you think is a bad smell. It's
Speaker 3: actually like charity blossoms.
Speaker 4: WHOA, Okay, that's what throws my whole perspective kind of
Speaker 4: into disarray, like where is the self preservation aspect of this?
Speaker 3: Because they have the idea is that these baby mice
Speaker 3: who first they inculcated the males with the smell of
Speaker 3: a thing that's kind of like cherry blossoms. It's like
Speaker 3: we had cherry blossoms at home. And then they took
Speaker 3: the sperm from those males, inciminated, artificially inciminated female mice.
Speaker 3: So the baby mice never met their father. Why is
Speaker 3: this important Not because it's like a sad fival story
Speaker 3: or anything, but because it shows us they were not
Speaker 3: imprinted by watching the behavior of the parrot that have
Speaker 3: been exposed. Yes, so it's pretty strange because they had
Speaker 3: a control group and not only did not only did
Speaker 3: the mice kiddos. I'm trying not to anthropomorphize, but I
Speaker 3: can't help it. We brought up an American tale. Not
Speaker 3: only did the mice kiddos who had not been exposed.
Speaker 3: Not only were they less afraid of the smell, but
Speaker 3: the kids who did come from the scared daddyos had
Speaker 3: more physical aceta finone smell receptors. They were physiologically different.
Speaker 3: That's a claim. Now, what does this mean? How much
Speaker 3: can you scope in on that kind of innergenerational information
Speaker 3: transfer if memory is to sticky a phrase we don't
Speaker 3: know yet. We also we haven't gotten to epigenetics. But epigenetics,
Speaker 3: which we've talked about in the past, is a related
Speaker 3: idea here headmasters. The idea. It's the concept that environmental
Speaker 3: influences can affect how genes are expressed.
Speaker 2: And usually it's associated with negative ones. Right, that's all.
Speaker 3: Kinds of starvation and such. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's even talk about people who survived the Holocaust
Speaker 2: or who were immediately close to nine to eleven and
Speaker 2: a bunch of other like traumatic experiences then passed some
Speaker 2: of that some of the traumatic response genes down there.
Speaker 3: And it raises serious questions about oppression too. Every society
Speaker 3: as some group of people or multiple groups rather who
Speaker 3: have been oppressed.
Speaker 4: If it makes it like is you gotta wonder too?
Speaker 4: Like is something like racism? And can that be epigenetic,
Speaker 4: you know, like like it's a fear of an other
Speaker 4: that your body just tells you is wrong. And that's
Speaker 4: why certain like you know, cultures get historically a bad rap.
Speaker 4: Beyond I don't have any reason to dislike Jewish people
Speaker 4: or whatever it is, but yet something within an individual
Speaker 4: might tell them scream out that there's a problem.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's that's interesting because that's that's a slightly different aspect.
Speaker 3: So we know racism is taught.
Speaker 4: I agree, of course, I just we're positing wondering, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we know that racism does have these probably does
Speaker 3: have these deleterious effects in terms of people's health, you know,
Speaker 3: like because if you are experiencing the real life PTSD
Speaker 3: of functioning in a society that is always out to
Speaker 3: get you or treat you as less, then then that
Speaker 3: may influence things that happen when your children, you know,
Speaker 3: maybe into certain medical conditions. The research still isn't there,
Speaker 3: but we know epigenetics is real. If you want to
Speaker 3: learn more about it, check out the New York Times
Speaker 3: article from twenty eighteen by Carl Zimmer. It's not the
Speaker 3: first time we've quoted your work. Carl welcome back. He
Speaker 3: talks about studies done on genes in Dutch populations, people
Speaker 3: who starved in the Dutch famine of nineteen forty four
Speaker 3: to forty five. The kids of these children and the
Speaker 3: folks who survived the famine and the privation, they had
Speaker 3: markedly different health outcomes, like dying at higher rates, higher
Speaker 3: likelihood of having certain diseases. That is, I would argue
Speaker 3: that may not be a conscious memory, but that is
Speaker 3: a lot like a genetic memory. Does that sound fair?
Speaker 4: I think so?
Speaker 2: WHOA.
Speaker 4: I don't know how else to think about it.
Speaker 2: Guys, guys, you can buy a seat of penone fenone. However,
Speaker 2: we say it on this website called Scent Spiracy for twelve.
Speaker 2: It's twelve mil leaders for twelve pounds, but they're sold out.
Speaker 2: It's a conspiracy.
Speaker 3: Indeed, so we're going to actually call it a little
Speaker 3: bit early today. We've got one letter from home. We
Speaker 3: are right now in full disclosure recording on what some
Speaker 3: of our friends call Thanksgiving Eve. We know the holidays
Speaker 3: can be tough for a lot of people. Candidly, one
Speaker 3: of those people depend on your family situation. So we
Speaker 3: do wish you the best and we want to thank
Speaker 3: you so much for being with us here and being
Speaker 3: the most important part of the show. The letter from
Speaker 3: home will share, which I think we all saw, was.
Speaker 2: Is that voicemail if you met oh Man?
Speaker 3: All right, it's an email from someone who didn't give
Speaker 3: us a nickname. So we're gonna we're gonna freestyle here
Speaker 3: and we're gonna call you a tabby cat. So I
Speaker 3: like it to yeah, go with the cats, right, fear
Speaker 3: no cucumber Tabby Cat. Tabby you said, have you guys
Speaker 3: done an episode? This is just a cavalcade of the
Speaker 3: suggestions have you done an episode? On Harold Holt's disappearance,
Speaker 3: former Australian Prime Minister Avid Swimmer. He believed oxygen tanks
Speaker 3: were inauthentic, and he famously said to one person, come on, Tony,
Speaker 3: what's the chance of an Australian prime minister drowning or
Speaker 3: being eaten by a shark? And then he went missing
Speaker 3: swimming off the coast on the eastern head of Melbourne.
Speaker 3: They named a swimming pool after him, but most people
Speaker 3: believed he drowned. Because this happened at the height of
Speaker 3: the Cold War, there were a lot of conspiracy theories
Speaker 3: surrounding it, you could and then the other suggestions you
Speaker 3: could do episodes on Australian history and Tabikat. As you
Speaker 3: may have noticed by this point, we get a lot
Speaker 3: of Venn diagram with ridiculous history and stuff they once
Speaker 3: you know, as a matter of fact, we often get
Speaker 3: together and say which is better which show, or we'll
Speaker 3: do episodes both shows here. This may be a case.
Speaker 3: Tabikat also asked about Kelly and about the New Zealand
Speaker 3: Treaty of Why Tongi and asked for an episode about
Speaker 3: the Tasmanian Tiger or Luu. We've done the Tiger man.
Speaker 3: I'm bullish on the tiger. I want that bad boy
Speaker 3: back so bad.
Speaker 2: I remember that tiger Harold Holt was born exactly seventy
Speaker 2: five years before me to the day. Just found that out.
Speaker 3: Okay, nice August being.
Speaker 2: Coincidence, I think, I think, so oh oh, you're right.
Speaker 3: And we also covered a flight MG three seventy. I
Speaker 3: went and sent you that episode as well, tabby Kat.
Speaker 3: We wanted to thank everybody for tuning in. We could
Speaker 3: have a great episode on Harold Holt, so stay tuned.
Speaker 3: We have so much that we didn't get to we
Speaker 3: are going to talk with Squirrel Girl about food waste
Speaker 3: in retail. We have we got a lot of court
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