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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noah.

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Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer Dylan, the Tennessee pal Fake and most importantly,

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Speaker 3: you are here. That makes this the stuff they don't

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Speaker 3: want you to know. It is not only December fifth,

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Speaker 3: if you're hearing this the evening this program publishes, it

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Speaker 3: is also the rumors are true. Our weekly listener mail Exploration. Oh,

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Speaker 3: we've got some good stuff here, laundering schemes or whatever

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Speaker 3: they may be, still delicious. We've got some stuff about

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Speaker 3: your eyes and where your eyes go. We have a

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Speaker 3: great list of episode suggestions at the end of fantastic email.

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Speaker 3: Maybe a little about food, waste and retail. Maybe a

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Speaker 3: little bit about genetic memory, which I'm really excited to

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Speaker 3: explore before we do any of that. I think one

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Speaker 3: of us has been to shen Yan, but not all

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Speaker 3: of us, is it you, Matt?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, When I lived on Buford Highway, I certainly

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Speaker 2: checked it out in the early days. I quite enjoyed

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Speaker 2: the show, and then we did some research and in

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Speaker 2: some episodes on it, and my whole view of the

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Speaker 2: experience was altered.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's such an interesting kind of multifaceted thing too,

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Speaker 4: because we know that the Foul and Gong movements religious

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Speaker 4: movement is an oppressed group in China, but they also

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Speaker 4: has really problematic things, you know, and are almost like

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Speaker 4: bordering on what one might call it cult. We've talked

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Speaker 4: about this pretty extensively, and especially.

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Speaker 3: In February of twenty twenty one with our episode what

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Speaker 3: is Fallun Gong? We we're incredibly I would say I.

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Speaker 4: Completely agree, and we had a listener that referenced that

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Speaker 4: exact episode in writing into us about an update to

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Speaker 4: that story, which we will hear after this quick briefest

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Speaker 4: of breaks. And we returned with the message from call

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Speaker 4: me Winter Juniper. Almost three years ago, says Winter Juniper,

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Speaker 4: y'all did an episode about Shen Yun and fallon Gong.

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Speaker 4: There's an interesting update in that they are now being

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Speaker 4: sued for human trafficking. Could this be them finally getting accountability? Well,

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Speaker 4: Winter Juniper, we'll talk about just that There's a fabulous

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Speaker 4: piece in The New York Times was published on November

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Speaker 4: twenty fifth, just a couple of days before We Record Today,

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Speaker 4: by Nicole Hong and Michael Rothfeld. The headline is ex

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Speaker 4: dancer accuses Shenyon of forced labor and trafficking in lawsuit,

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Speaker 4: The former performer, who was recruited to join Shenyon at

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Speaker 4: age thirteen, said the prominent dance group coerced children into

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Speaker 4: making money for it. The dancer in question is Cheng

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Speaker 4: Chun co. A sixty eight page lawsuit was filed in

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Speaker 4: Federal District Court in White Plains, New York, where she

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Speaker 4: described shen Yun as a forced labor enterprise employing exploitative

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Speaker 4: tactics to recruit underage dancers, using threats, public shaming, and

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Speaker 4: other coercive tactics in order to generate hundreds of millions

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Speaker 4: of dollars in revenue. The article says, just a quick

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Speaker 4: quote here. Miss Chang said she was recruited from Taiwan

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Speaker 4: to join Shenyun as a dancer at age thirteen in

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Speaker 4: two thousand and nine. She performed with the group until

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Speaker 4: she left in twenty twenty when she was twenty four.

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Speaker 4: Miss Chang sued under a federal law that allows victims

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Speaker 4: of forced labor to sue their traffickers. The lawsuits actually

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Speaker 4: comes on the heels of another New York Times at

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Speaker 4: revelation that Shan Yun's performers had been working under pretty

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Speaker 4: significantly abusive conditions for many years. Miss Chang among the

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Speaker 4: children who were subjected to these conditions. The New York

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Speaker 4: State Department of Labor has an open inquiry into the

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Speaker 4: company's labor practices, including its use of child performers. The

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Speaker 4: company itself actually claims that the children were not forced

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Speaker 4: to join the group, that they were volunteers, and that

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Speaker 4: these labor practices do not apply to them. Some of

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Speaker 4: the tactics named in the lawsuit included confiscating passports, cutting

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Speaker 4: the children off from outside media, publicly shaming and denouncing

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Speaker 4: them as Chinese government spies if they dared to question

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Speaker 4: the group's practices, and also subjecting those who went against

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Speaker 4: these rules to public critique. Sessions organization itself shen Yun,

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Speaker 4: which again is a kind of offshoot of the Fallongong

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Speaker 4: movement in China, which is sort of a separatist group

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Speaker 4: that themselves are subjected often to othering practices by the CCP,

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Speaker 4: which we will get into in a little bit, claim

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Speaker 4: that these labor practices do not apply to these children

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Speaker 4: because they are in fact volunteers, and that they have

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Speaker 4: the option to leave any time they want. The Times

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Speaker 4: Piece had this to say, many children arrive at Schnyun's headquarters,

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Speaker 4: known as Dragon Springs, with little ability to speak English

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Speaker 4: and no network in the United States. After being separated

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Speaker 4: from their families, they are plunged into a quote system

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Speaker 4: of coercion and control that extends to nearly every aspect

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Speaker 4: of the dancers' lives. Shin Yun is registered as a nonprofit. However,

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Speaker 4: as we mentioned, it is incredibly for profit. It would

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Speaker 4: seem I don't quite understand sometimes how these non profits

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Speaker 4: do tend to evolve or devolve into being money making operations.

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Speaker 4: These recruits, as they're referred to in the lawsuit and

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Speaker 4: in the New York Times peace are They originate typically

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Speaker 4: at what is called the phi Tian Academy of the Art,

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Speaker 4: such as a boarding school inside that Dragon Springs compound

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Speaker 4: or Dragon Spring. Yeah, I guess the compound is probably

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Speaker 4: the right way to put it, which then feeds into

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Speaker 4: a college of the same name, also on the same campus,

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Speaker 4: the Phi Tian College. These schools, though, however, seem to

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Speaker 4: provide very little in the form of actual education, and

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Speaker 4: it's really just a wave for dancers to be subjected

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Speaker 4: to very excruciating in long hours of training and rehearsals

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Speaker 4: for the show itself. The lawsuit calls this an ongoing

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Speaker 4: supply of forced child labor to Nyon without attracting scrutiny.

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Speaker 4: Are the operation of these schools, so they're intended to

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Speaker 4: do education is in doctrination for the tea of the

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Speaker 4: leader Li Hongshi. That's exactly correct. Representatives of shen Yuan

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Speaker 4: and Fellongong didn't respond to The New York Times requests

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Speaker 4: for comment. However, they have denied these very allegations or

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Speaker 4: allegations of this type, saying that labor laws do not

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Speaker 4: apply to their underage performers because they are students who

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Speaker 4: tour with shen Yuan as a learning opportunity and not

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Speaker 4: employees loophole much and that every student participates voluntarily.

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Speaker 3: Sure thing, we also do have to look please check

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Speaker 3: out our episode on What's going on with Wallungngong, because

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Speaker 3: in there we look at some of the actions, and

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Speaker 3: I think you're getting to this and some of the

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Speaker 3: actions of the CCP just in not to defend any

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Speaker 3: kind of just evil labor practices, but it is worth

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Speaker 3: a note that at repeated times in the organization's past,

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Speaker 3: both in the US and in China and abroad, the

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Speaker 3: Chinese government has attempted to infiltrate the organization.

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Speaker 4: No question about it. And I think this is actually

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Speaker 4: a perfect opportunity to jump to a piece from Vision Times,

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Speaker 4: which is a news organization I was not super familiar with,

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Speaker 4: and I was maybe a little concerned that there was

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Speaker 4: a slight agenda here in the reporting, but it did

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Speaker 4: appear to be based in the United States and to

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Speaker 4: be a source of uncovering issues in Chinese propaganda and

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Speaker 4: how those efforts can kind of proliferate out into the

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Speaker 4: wider world. The pieces by Aleena Wong, a native New

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Speaker 4: Yorker with a bachelor's degree in corporate communications from Baruq

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Speaker 4: College who writes about human rights, politics, tech and society

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Speaker 4: headline being inside the CCP's propaganda machine, how Beijing fuels

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Speaker 4: disinformation against Fallen Gong and Shin Yun, and just just

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Speaker 4: to quote a little bit from here to kind of

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Speaker 4: give you the sense. At the heart of this campaign

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Speaker 4: lies a network of state owned pawns and foreign facing

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Speaker 4: propaganda efforts, including the Beijing Dance Academy BDA and China's

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Speaker 4: Ministry of State Security MSS, as they leverage their influence

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Speaker 4: and resources to spread falsehoods both within and beyond China's borders.

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Speaker 4: The BDA is a state owned art institute that has

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Speaker 4: been directly linked to CCP propaganda efforts for many years.

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Speaker 4: Ostensibly an educational institution, the BDA actually operates as an

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Speaker 4: arm of the regime's broader ideological machinery behind closed doors.

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Speaker 3: Just to wrap up.

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Speaker 4: According to research by the Fallon Dafa Information Center, the

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Speaker 4: academy's leadership is almost entirely composed of CCP members, with

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Speaker 4: many holding dual roles both within the school and the

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Speaker 4: party committee. The center had this to say, Foreign universities,

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Speaker 4: dance programs, and journalists need to be aware of what

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Speaker 4: they are engaging with when dealing with the BDA, noting

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Speaker 4: that the academy intentionally downplays its party connections and its

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Speaker 4: English language training brochures and materials, So it's a tricky

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Speaker 4: thing to parse. Because, like you said, Ben you know,

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Speaker 4: Fallon Gong is a separatist group. They are subjected to

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Speaker 4: a lot of retaliatory actions by the CCP, and.

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Speaker 3: Even if they don't see themselves as separatists, their teachings

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Speaker 3: are seen as a security concern to the domestic government

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Speaker 3: of China. So you'll blake you said, no, It can

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Speaker 3: be incredibly frustrating, difficult to parse through what is and

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Speaker 3: is not true, especially when you look at the heavy

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Speaker 3: accusations Following Gong the organization, or Following daffas it's also called,

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Speaker 3: have levied against the government of China.

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Speaker 4: That's right, and I think there's there are clearly bad

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Speaker 4: actors on both sides here, you know, no question as

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Speaker 4: especially as we've seen some of these exposes about some

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Speaker 4: of the clearly would would be considered child labor, you know,

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Speaker 4: misconduct on the part of Fellongong. And it's kind of

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Speaker 4: outreach organization. That's sort of the idea, right. Shan Yun

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Speaker 4: is a classical Chinese dance company, and they do have

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Speaker 4: this mission to kind of revive Like Matt, I'd be

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Speaker 4: interested to hear what the show is like. But the

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Speaker 4: idea is to revive China's traditional cultures and to spread

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Speaker 4: the sort of history of more ancient Chinese traditions out

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Speaker 4: into the wider world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's storytelling, right, it's storytelling very widely, trying to

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Speaker 2: get a new vision of what people think about when

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Speaker 2: they think China in their head. Right, Because that's one

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Speaker 2: of the things we've talked about in this show. You

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Speaker 2: have associations with like a country, person, concept and all

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Speaker 2: these things, and you've got this little mind cloud that

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Speaker 2: gets accessed every time you think about one of those things.

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Speaker 2: It's a very different picture than you get in the show,

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Speaker 2: at least what you see in the news. So I

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Speaker 2: think that's what this thing is, That's what shin Yun

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Speaker 2: is meant to be. I don't know, that's my thoughts.

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Speaker 3: I agree with you there, because we're what we're seeing

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Speaker 3: is you could call it. The more cynical people called

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Speaker 3: a psychological operation. Not to entertainment, but propaganda disguised as entertainment,

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Speaker 3: And a lot of entertainment is propaganda disguised entertainment. Of course,

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Speaker 3: careful where we're throwing those stones. I will note though,

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Speaker 3: that the idea one thing you say that stands out here, Matt,

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Speaker 3: is maybe an abbreviated way to think about. This is

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Speaker 3: a narrative war. We are attempting to redirect narrative, right,

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Speaker 3: We're attempting to tell the story that we would the

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Speaker 3: way we would prefer to be told.

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Speaker 4: And the fact that it's so popular in the wider

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Speaker 4: world outside of Beijing, you know, is a red flag

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Speaker 4: for the powers to be.

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Speaker 3: They don't like that.

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Speaker 4: They don't want that narrative to spread. They are all

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Speaker 4: about information control.

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Speaker 3: They're a long reach too, there's no getting around that.

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Speaker 2: I think we talked about the huge Academy of the

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Speaker 2: Arts they have in New York. It's like it's not

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Speaker 2: upstate New York, but it's you know, it's two hours

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Speaker 2: north of the Newark Airport. Let's say, like if you're

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Speaker 2: just thinking about where this place is or northwest, but

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Speaker 2: it's it's called a face sean I think, or face

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Speaker 2: I don't know how to say it. Fei dash t

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Speaker 2: I a n Academy of the arts.

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Speaker 4: That's right, we were talking about that. That's part of that.

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Speaker 4: That's a wing of they've got, like that's where there.

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Speaker 4: The New York Times article accuses Foul and Gong of

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Speaker 4: beginning its recruitment process for these underage.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, the isolating doctri that's right.

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Speaker 2: So it's a two hour drive from the airport. When

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Speaker 2: you bring people in, right, you get them to this place.

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Speaker 2: And if you look at it on the map, we're

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Speaker 2: just I'm in a satellite maps mode thinking about the

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Speaker 2: Pokemon ghost story we just did. If you look at

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Speaker 2: that compound, it is not you know, it doesn't even

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Speaker 2: look like a college campus. It looks like a huge compound.

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Speaker 2: And I can imagine if you are taking people's passports,

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Speaker 2: you are controlling, you know, isolating them. You don't have

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Speaker 2: to do much to isolate them if you got them there,

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Speaker 2: because it is in kind of a middle of nowhere

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Speaker 2: New York.

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Speaker 4: All right, it's got big scientology vibes, got big gold

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Speaker 4: Base vibes. Oh yeah, I mean it just occurred to

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Speaker 4: me when you were describing it at as a way

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Speaker 4: of isolating people, and we know that the scientology likes

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Speaker 4: to do that as well. If I think it's gold Base,

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Speaker 4: is the one that's in Florida, right, isn't that the.

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Speaker 2: Is gold based the one that officially had the residence

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Speaker 2: right where like where he was going to come back

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Speaker 2: and live or something like that. I can't Remember, there's

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Speaker 2: so many bases that they've.

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Speaker 3: Gold bases, the headquarters, I think you're sometimes going to

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Speaker 3: hear it called Golden Era Productions International Base.

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Speaker 4: Also, oh, gold bases in California. It's in Santa Sinzo.

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Speaker 4: There's another big, massive compound in Florida.

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Speaker 3: They basically like, oh, that's the town that they took over.

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Speaker 3: That's right. Is that clear water?

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Speaker 4: Clearwater? Thank you. But it does have it just has

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Speaker 4: a a It smacks of that cultish kind of indoctrination

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Speaker 4: factory where when you have these young people who are

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Speaker 4: coming into the country, they don't have any connections outside

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Speaker 4: of this organization. They can't speak English. It is rife

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Speaker 4: for this level of control and indoctrination. So I hope

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Speaker 4: there's no feeling that we are trying to justify any

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Speaker 4: of this. We know it was just an opportunity to

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Speaker 4: talk about how the CCP sees Fallongong as an enemy

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Speaker 4: of the state practically, and there are bad things going

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Speaker 4: on in both camps.

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Speaker 3: They also be interesting in a very disturbing way to

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Speaker 3: see whether the signals toward mass deportation are going to

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Speaker 3: apply to following Gong membership, just because again they're in

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Speaker 3: a very dec very dicey legal place. So if you're

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Speaker 3: hearing this, if you have experience with that organization, please

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Speaker 3: be safe.

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Speaker 2: Oh for sure. Quick side note, guys, just when I

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Speaker 2: was thinking about el Ron Hubbard again in that scientology

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Speaker 2: place where he will return, it was some little splinter

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Speaker 2: in my mind. That is in some of the teachings

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Speaker 2: that we've read about. There's a place called Saint Hill

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Speaker 2: Manor in Sussex, West Sussex. I think out in the UK.

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Speaker 2: Ell Ron Hubbard owned this mansion a manor, right, and

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Speaker 2: that's supposedly where he will return, if and when ell

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Speaker 2: Around Hubbards spirit returns.

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Speaker 4: I look forward to that day.

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Speaker 3: Matt, don't call it a come back.

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Speaker 4: No, he's been here for years, hanging around in the wings.

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Speaker 3: Guy, I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I think this might be something to explore further, maybe

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Speaker 4: both sides of what we're talking about here at the

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Speaker 4: CCP angle and the separatist Fallonngong movement. It has been

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Speaker 4: three years since we did cover this, so there might

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Speaker 4: be something worth a bit of an update. I'm not

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Speaker 4: sure we might have covered it here. But thank you

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Speaker 4: so much to Winter Juniper for writing in and hipping

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Speaker 4: us to this update to what was already a very

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Speaker 4: fraught and fascinating topic.

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Speaker 3: Why don't we take a.

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Speaker 4: Quick break, hear a word from our sponsor, and then

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Speaker 4: come back with more messages from you.

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Speaker 2: And we're back and we're turning to the phone lines.

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Speaker 2: Let's hear a message from Chef Donnie, who I attempted

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Speaker 2: to call back several times, y'all, because I wanted to

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Speaker 2: get more information on this, but we don't have it

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Speaker 2: for this episode. If we find out more, we'll let

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Speaker 2: you know in the future, because there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: questions I'm assuming that we want to ask him. After

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Speaker 2: we hear this message, Johnny kept hanging up because he thought, again,

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Speaker 2: this happens quite frequently, y'all. Donny thought when we called

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Speaker 2: back from the number, that it was just some spammer, right,

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Speaker 2: because it is like our number starts with an eight,

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Speaker 2: so it looks like an eight hundred number. It was not.

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Speaker 2: It was just me sitting in my house trying to

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Speaker 2: call you. Do put our number in your phone as

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Speaker 2: a contact so you recognize it.

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Speaker 4: The void does indeed call you back sometimes, It's true, it,

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Speaker 4: Ben says.

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Speaker 2: I Chef Donnie had to call back and leave another voiceman.

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Speaker 2: I was like, ah, dang it, I'm sorry, but here

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Speaker 2: we go. Here is Chef Donnie's original message.

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Speaker 5: Hey guys, this is a Chef Donnie. I wanted to

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Speaker 5: call about money laundering. You guys were talking about money

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Speaker 5: laundering today. That is cool as you're listening. Tuesday, November nineteenth,

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Speaker 5: That messages ten. I used to work for a restaurant

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Speaker 5: that was in downtown Tall Lake. It was an awesome spot.

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Speaker 5: We did like local organic produce, super expensive ingredients, like

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Speaker 5: crazy menu, change it all the time, and it was great.

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Speaker 5: But we hemorrhaged like twenty thousand dollars a month for years,

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Speaker 5: and so the business was going to close and the

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Speaker 5: owner decided to sell it. He sold it to a

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Speaker 5: very wealthy couple and they came in and they did

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Speaker 5: some painting and changed decorations and stuff, but as far

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Speaker 5: as like business model goes, they pretty much kept it

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Speaker 5: the exact same. And here's where it is crazy. The

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Speaker 5: conspiracy among the employees is these people are so extremely wealthy.

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Speaker 5: The husband is a he's like a co owner of

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Speaker 5: a bank in Salt Lake City, so they are they're

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Speaker 5: pretty much infinite money goaged people. So what do you

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Speaker 5: do when you have so much money and the only

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Speaker 5: way you really can get more is to avoid taxes? Right,

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Speaker 5: So go buy a restaurant that's losing money and keep

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Speaker 5: it that way because now you're spending money on business extent.

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Speaker 5: You know, it doesn't matter. All my restaurant lost thirty

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Speaker 5: grand this month, but that's thirty grand lessing taxes I

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Speaker 5: have to pay as an individual. Very interesting, and I

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Speaker 5: know it gets a little more complicated when you get

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Speaker 5: into like individuals and businesses and entities, but that's the conspiracy.

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Speaker 5: Feel free to use my voice or whatever. You can

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Speaker 5: put the san in or throw it away, at least

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Speaker 5: respond I love you guys, all right, fine.

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Speaker 4: We love you too, Chef Donnie.

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Speaker 3: I think, Chef Donnie, that's a great question.

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Speaker 2: Yeah it is. I love that. Please respall I love

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Speaker 2: you guys, but this is Chef Donnie.

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Speaker 4: Guys.

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Speaker 2: I thought this spoke to a lot of things that

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Speaker 2: we've discussed in the past. Specifically, you know that money

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Speaker 2: laundering scheme, but in this case, just a tax avoidance scheme.

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Speaker 2: And it does. It resonates, I think with some of

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Speaker 2: the things we've discussed before, where you can write so

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Speaker 2: many things off as a tax loss or perhaps.

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Speaker 4: As a loss it gives you, it sucks up some

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Speaker 4: tax liability.

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Speaker 3: And it's also legal. The difference between the two phrases

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Speaker 3: tax avoidance You probably already know this, Chef Donny. But

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Speaker 3: tax avoidance is all the stuff you can do that

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Speaker 3: is legal. Tax evasion is all the stuff you do

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Speaker 3: that is, for one reason or another considered illegal. Hmmm,

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Speaker 3: up to an including just not paying your taxes Like sorry, irs,

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Speaker 3: I didn't know I couldn't do that.

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Speaker 6: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Man, Well, in this case, I feel like this is

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Speaker 2: a pretty good win for everybody. If some wealthy person

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Speaker 2: can run a like a good restaurant, maybe that's a

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Speaker 2: delight to go to once a year. Somebody you know

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Speaker 2: who doesn't have an infinite money glitch the way, maybe

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Speaker 2: maybe a co owner of a bank, does you at

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Speaker 2: least get some great food again to stay open, and

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Speaker 2: even though it's losing money, it's actually, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: helping the wealthy person stay afloat feels like a good

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Speaker 2: thing to me, but also a weird loophole.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it makes me think of I think

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Speaker 4: it was pretty recently that this came up again, as

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Speaker 4: it often does the idea of going into that restaurant

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Speaker 4: that is a little bit abandoned feeling, and when you

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Speaker 4: order some food they kind of look at you as scants.

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Speaker 4: It's sort of like almost a cliche, the idea of

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Speaker 4: like these sort of front operations.

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Speaker 2: Every dollar you spend is less money than they get

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Speaker 2: to write off on taxes.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, helly, what are you doing. Get out of here.

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Speaker 3: I've got a suppering up. I do love those places,

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Speaker 3: and I'm glad you gave him a shout out. And

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Speaker 3: there's also the idea here, or the differentiating factor there

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Speaker 3: would be the places we're talking about, or maybe fronts

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Speaker 3: for organized crime. To put a fine point on it,

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Speaker 3: and in this case, as it was described earlier, possible

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Speaker 3: win win for folks involved. It's a case of ulterior motive. Right,

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Speaker 3: we got the restaurant because we want it to be around,

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Speaker 3: but we don't want it to do super well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but you could also funnel some money through there.

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Speaker 2: You know, that could be almost like laundering in a

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Speaker 2: way if you want it in that We're not.

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Speaker 3: Saying that it is it's like money laundering in that

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Speaker 3: it is.

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess it just depends on Yeah, it depends

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Speaker 2: on the purpose and how you do it, and there's

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Speaker 2: a lot.

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Speaker 3: Of order of operations.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of stuff there. But potentially it

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Speaker 2: could be both.

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Speaker 3: But there's also you know, the restaurant industry itself is

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Speaker 3: such a cutthroat business. It's incredibly difficult to make it

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Speaker 3: in restaurants are in hospitality because of numerous numerous factors.

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Speaker 3: I'm always impressed when I see restaurant tours and even

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Speaker 3: more so when I see self made chefs, because talk

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Speaker 3: about serious you know what I mean, Like, there's not

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Speaker 3: an off time for those folks.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, very true, especially for the staff, you know, the

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Speaker 2: actual human beings that run them, the people who own them.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's a little different situation. All right, Well, hey,

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Speaker 2: there you go, Chef Donnie, let us know what the

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Speaker 2: restaurant is. Maybe I don't know, or maybe you can

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Speaker 2: track it down figure out which restaurant chef Donnie's talking about.

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Speaker 2: That would be fun. Then we could all go there

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Speaker 2: and just like order way too much money's worth of

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Speaker 2: food and drinks and just see what happens.

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Speaker 3: Love love firsthand investigations all about a side quest. Got

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Speaker 3: some stuff going on in Knoxville in fact, we're gonna

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Speaker 3: be on the road a little bit more than twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty five man. So yeah, you know, want it right

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Speaker 3: into us, give us a link or something like that,

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Speaker 3: and we can keep it anonymous, you know, but you

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Speaker 3: might have some interesting guys show up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. We'll just do a meet up at

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Speaker 2: that restaurant at some point at Salt Lake. All right,

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Speaker 2: let's jump one more time to the phone lines and

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Speaker 2: here from Valerie. Here we go.

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Speaker 6: Hey, guys, it's Valerie again in the Samandoa Valley. Sorry

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Speaker 6: to call again. I was thinking about your episode on

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Speaker 6: November twelfth where you talked about eye tracking and you

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Speaker 6: guys should do well. I'm not going to tell you

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Speaker 6: what to do. Sorry, that was rude. This thing called

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Speaker 6: E MDR therapy that has been around for a long

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Speaker 6: time and it has a ton of research. It initially

434
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 6: was used for veterans with post traumatic stress and has

435
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 6: since over the years been applied to all kinds of trauma.

436
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 6: It stands for I movement, desensitization and reprocessing. I know

437
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,679
Speaker 6: a little about it. I don't provide that therapeutic service,

438
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 6: not trained for it. But I was listening to your

439
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 6: podcast and I was like, gosh, I have to call

440
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 6: these guys and tell them about that, because when they're

441
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 6: talking about ies being tracked and stuff, this is pretty interesting. Anyway,

442
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 6: Sorry to take up all your voicemail. I hope you

443
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 6: guys are doing great and have a good week.

444
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 3: Oh thanks, Valerie, you too.

445
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Valerie is called in a couple of times now.

446
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 2: Valerie is a psychotherapist in private practice out there in

447
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,719
Speaker 2: the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia. Very cool said some very

448
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 2: kind things in the past. We definitely appreciate those. Valerie

449
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 2: and I did not know about this, guys. I've never

450
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 2: heard of em d R therapy until Valerie mentioned it.

451
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 2: Are you guys? Were you guys aware of it before.

452
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 3: This only due to look like we're saying with PTSD,

453
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 3: only due to some veteran friends, but never personally experienced it.

454
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 3: Definitely don't know a ton about it, to be honest.

455
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 2: Oh dude, I knew nothing about this.

456
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 4: I believe it came up and with a previous therapist

457
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 4: that I had just in conversation, just like as sort

458
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 4: of like a thing that maybe I wasn't familiar with

459
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 4: when we were talking about different forms of like regression

460
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 4: type of therapy.

461
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 2: Oh interesting, Okay, so it does feel like maybe this

462
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 2: is a cousin of some type of regression therapy, almost hypnosis.

463
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 4: To a degree. That's and that's sort of the context

464
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 4: in which it came up. I was just asking about

465
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 4: that sort of thing, and it was like someone something there.

466
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 6: It was.

467
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 4: It was not like something we were going to do.

468
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 4: I was just asking about different forms of that kind

469
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:16,439
Speaker 4: of therapy.

470
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 2: Well, this is so, this is this is fascinating, y'all.

471
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,919
Speaker 2: Let's define it, at least as in the way that

472
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 2: the EMDR Institute Incorporated defines it, which was founded by

473
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 2: Francine Shapiro, PhD, by the way, and you can go

474
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 2: to their website and find this if you want em

475
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 2: DR dot com. It says i Movement desensitization and reprocessing

476
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 2: or EMDR, is a psychotherapy treatment that is designed to

477
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 2: alleviate the distress associated with traumatic memories. And when I

478
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 2: started reading about this, guys, you know what, it reminded

479
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 2: me of what's up the scene in Get Out and

480
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 2: the technique in the film get Out where the tea

481
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,919
Speaker 2: cup is moved around in a and you focus on

482
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,479
Speaker 2: the teacup and specifically the sound of the teacup while

483
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 2: you are simultaneously remembering something that is traumatic to you

484
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 2: a moment in your life.

485
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 3: Sure.

486
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 2: Now, in this case, I don't think the point is

487
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 2: to send you into the deep place or whatever the

488
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 2: termination sunken place, but it does feel as though it

489
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 2: is meant to take your mind to a different place

490
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 2: and create other associations with a specific traumatic thing that

491
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 2: has happened to you. On that website, they give the

492
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 2: example of someone who has experienced sexual assault, so that

493
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:40,640
Speaker 2: basically you are shown an image in one part of

494
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 2: like your vision, that is associated directly with your traumatic memory.

495
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 2: Then you are meant to track your eyes away from

496
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:53,360
Speaker 2: that image and focus on other things, stuff that's more positive,

497
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 2: stuff that's more interfacing, right, or when I say that,

498
00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 2: not interfacing but inner facing, inward extrospective, and then changes

499
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 2: that the feeling that you have and the associations you

500
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 2: have with this specific thing more to about empowerment, self

501
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 2: determination and those kinds of things rather than the scary

502
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 2: thing that you experienced in the past. I don't know,

503
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 2: it seems pretty interesting and I kind of want to

504
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 2: check this thing out.

505
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, give it a try, Right, It's it's fascinating too,

506
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 3: because we know that the human mind is something the

507
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 3: human mind still itself doesn't understand, and often people have

508
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 3: to endeavor to explore various different kinds of therapeutic treatment

509
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 3: before they find something that really clicks with them. So

510
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 3: this is also somewhat of a PSA from non medical professionals.

511
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 3: If you are in therapy or you're addressing some sort

512
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 3: of thing going on in your past, present, or your

513
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 3: life and the first for out doesn't quite do it before,

514
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 3: you don't get discouraged. There are multiple resources and solutions

515
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 3: out there, and if this is helping anyone, then I

516
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 3: say it's worthwhile.

517
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 4: You know, well, can I just say I had a

518
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 4: therapist for almost an entire year who I thought was

519
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 4: pretty good until I decided to try something else. After

520
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 4: this person went on hiatus for a while and after

521
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 4: finding somebody new, I kind of realized that the person

522
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 4: I had before wasn't very good at least for me

523
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 4: at all. And I would never have really known that

524
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 4: unless I had tried something different. So don't feel like

525
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 4: you're stuck or you owe it to this person to

526
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 4: stick with them for the long haul. If you feel

527
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 4: like there's more that you could be doing for yourself.

528
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 2: Wow, dude, there's stuff in here that almost feels like

529
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 2: in the moment ASMR. Things like taps, tones that are

530
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 2: played to change associations, specific eye movements, like instructions for

531
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 2: eye movements while you are thinking about a negative thought.

532
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 2: Oh man, definitely check this out if you're interested in

533
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 2: this stuff or you are experiencing post traumatic stress disorder.

534
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 2: This definitely seems interesting. We don't know anything about it

535
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 2: other than what we're reading and you know what we've

536
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 2: been told, but it definitely seems like a fascinating, I

537
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 2: don't know how fascinating at least something to attempt.

538
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 3: I'm looking into clinical trials and it seems like there's

539
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 3: a pretty good track record of those since dating back

540
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 3: to nineteen eighty nine, so there's definitely some efficacious sand

541
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 3: to it.

542
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, all right, Well, hey, that's it. Thank you

543
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 2: so much, Valerie, Thank you so much, Chef Donnie. We'll

544
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 2: be right back with more messages from you. After some

545
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 2: messages from the ad folks.

546
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 3: And we have returned with our dear friend, Conspiracy realist

547
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 3: going by Headmaster asked a question that I find quite intriguing.

548
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 5: Here we go, I did not turn back.

549
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 7: If that master again, you could use my voice if

550
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 7: you wish. This is a call of basically ask a

551
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 7: question of what you guys think now. I was listening

552
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 7: to your listener Mail episode. I think it was your

553
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 7: last one. As of the airing date, it is November

554
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 7: twenty six, twenty twenty four. I'm calling you at twenty

555
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 7: forty eight hours, so that's eight forty eight pm. I

556
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 7: just wanted to say or ask you guys, do you

557
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 7: think genetic memory is a thing? And the reason why

558
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 7: I'm asking is because in your cold open to your

559
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 7: listener mail episode, you were discussing cats being afraid of seupcumbers. Well,

560
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 7: no one told cats to be a read with septumbers.

561
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 7: They instinctively know or think that it's a predator. So

562
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 7: if they instinctively know that it's a predator, how did

563
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 7: that instinct get there? And is instinct a form of

564
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 7: genetic memory? To answer that, I don't know if anyone

565
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 7: can answer that. I tried googling it and I got

566
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 7: a whole bunch of weird responds, So thought i'd kick

567
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 7: it up to you guys and see what you came

568
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 7: up with. Anyway, I'll let you guys, go Jeffer now.

569
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Headmaster. Oh I love that example

570
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 3: because it takes us in so many fascinating directions. I

571
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 3: was you probably hear me muttering Heath Ledger style from

572
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 3: The Dark Knight on some of that stuff. But yeah,

573
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 3: always love to hear response to a listener mail segment

574
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 3: because this might inform an episode on the concept of

575
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 3: not just genetic memory, but epigenetics. Going somewhere with this,

576
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 3: you guys ever heard the idea that newborns instinctively know

577
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 3: how to swim? Well?

578
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 4: I heard learned that from the cover of the seminal

579
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 4: nineteen nineties Nirvana album Nevermind.

580
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 3: Ah. Yes, yeah. There is a great deal of controversy

581
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 3: about this on the sci fi level. The furthest extension

582
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 3: of it genetic memory would be the argument that you could,

583
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 3: by nature of your lineage, your biology, and your genetic

584
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 3: structure have specific memories. Right that you could be born

585
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 3: or rotten too the world and know exactly where the

586
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 3: best pizza is in Salt Lake City, and you could

587
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 3: you would know it from cradle to grave. That has

588
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 3: not been proven to exist, but a lot of people

589
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 3: like the idea of this of genetic memory. And unfortunately,

590
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 3: at different times this somewhat Lamarckian concept has been weaponized,

591
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 3: has been used to justify very terrible things, right like

592
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 3: eugenics and so on. To step back there, the idea

593
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 3: of Lamarckian evolution is a pre existing theory for Darwinism,

594
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 3: where they you would call it spontaneous generation. We have

595
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 3: a couple episodes of ridiculous history about this, the idea

596
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 3: that if you have a bunch of gray in a

597
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 3: barrel and you leave it alone for long enough, then

598
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 3: rats will just happen. The grain will create the rats.

599
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 3: It sounds, you know, a little bit simplified now with

600
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 3: the benefit of retrospect. But the fact of the matter

601
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 3: is that people took that as leading scientific theory for

602
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 3: a long time. We get to other things with genetic

603
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 3: memory before we continue. First I have to ask you guys,

604
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 3: in full disclosure, do you have any specific genetic memories? Well, yeah,

605
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:30,919
Speaker 3: it's hard to always new.

606
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 4: It's hard, like I because you know, the idea of

607
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 4: remembering being a baby is also controversial, you know, like

608
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 4: what some people claim they remember being born and things

609
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 4: like that, to which many would roll their eyes a

610
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 4: bit and say I don't know about that. That sounds

611
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 4: very wish fulfillment kind of, you know, I don't know,

612
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 4: I mean, and I love the question that the listener

613
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 4: posed about. Is this the same as instinct? Because this

614
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 4: all kind of goes back into like the products of evolution.

615
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 4: I mean, you could argue that evolutionary traits are a

616
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 4: form of genetic memory, because you know, a particular type

617
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 4: of species evolves because a thing happens to it over

618
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 4: and over and over again to the point where it

619
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 4: changes it.

620
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 3: Well, how do the how do the baby turtles on

621
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 3: the shoreline know they got to run fast af for

622
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 3: the ocean the salmon?

623
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 6: You know?

624
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 4: How do they know the strange swum upstream and all

625
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 4: of that?

626
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 3: How to eels even do the thing? Right? We figured

627
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 3: out the answer that that's the story for a different day.

628
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 3: They developed their sexual organs at certain times.

629
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 2: I remember the pounding of war drums across the hills

630
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 2: in Middlesbrough.

631
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't. It's hard to answer that question, though, Ben,

632
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 4: I think is what I'm getting at, because it's like

633
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 4: it's not a memory per se as much as it

634
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 4: is just like an innate thing.

635
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 3: You know, A tableau is sensation influence towards a certain

636
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 3: set of a vibes. Yeah. Yeah, And you know what,

637
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 3: this gets us into the arguments that are a little

638
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 3: more spiritual and philosophical, the idea of reincarnation. I mean,

639
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 3: I've said it before on the show, so I'll say

640
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 3: it again. I do have a couple of memories I

641
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 3: can't explain. I don't think that's necessarily supernatural. I just

642
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 3: you know, I've been around a while and a lot

643
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 3: of stuff has happened. But then there's also the idea

644
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 3: that we need to emphasize this Headmaster. The idea of

645
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 3: inherited or genetic memory is partially difficult to really understand

646
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 3: because memory is so treacherous. You are the least reliable

647
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 3: eyewitness of your past because every time you remember something,

648
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 3: what you're doing neurologically is encountering the last time you

649
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 3: remembered it, and so, like a copy of a copy,

650
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 3: sometimes things shift, which goes back to the idea of

651
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,879
Speaker 3: therapeutic intervention, which can change some of those associations for

652
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:52,919
Speaker 3: good or for ill, hopefully for good.

653
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 2: That's why you write everything down, take copious notes on

654
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 2: everything you do and every interaction, and make recordings of

655
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 2: all of it, so you can go back in time

656
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,919
Speaker 2: and use your AI interface in five years from now.

657
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 2: I'm just joking, but it is it is actually that

658
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 2: this concept that Ben is describing there. It is the

659
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,280
Speaker 2: reason that I take notes on literally everything now because

660
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 2: I am nervous that I misremember things, because we know

661
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 2: that we do so, like it's why doctor's writing notes

662
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 2: is so important, y'all.

663
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,359
Speaker 3: And defensive doctors sometimes, you know, they don't deserve that

664
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 3: aspersion about having uniformly bad handwriting. Perhaps the're writing in

665
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 3: Latin guys, you know, shorthand it's not always someone else's fault,

666
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,399
Speaker 3: you know. So this is Yeah. I love that we're

667
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 3: bringing this up because you can go check out our

668
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 3: twenty twenty two episode How to Change People's Memories that

669
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 3: will be of interest if you haven't heard it yet Headmaster.

670
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 3: You can also check out your Brain on Love and

671
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 3: a couple of other pretty kick ass videos series we

672
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 3: did about this this concept. But that's the context of

673
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 3: the concept. One of the best questions to answer with

674
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 3: regard to genetic memory is language. You know, there have

675
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 3: been previous experiments in evenings past to raise human children

676
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 3: without any outside intervention and they will you remember this

677
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 3: one to see if they naturally spoke a language. Was

678
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,800
Speaker 3: it the language of God? Was it a language based

679
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,280
Speaker 3: on who their parents were and the languages they spoke.

680
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 3: Very bad stuff to do to kids. But we also

681
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 3: have learned that children born in a particular country are

682
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 3: not genetically predisposed to speak the language of that country.

683
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 3: Like being born in China or Bhutan, or being born

684
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 3: in Tuvalu or Guatemala doesn't mean you're gonna speak Spanish

685
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 3: or Mandarin, et cetera. Better, You'll just have more opportunities

686
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 3: to learn it right.

687
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 4: Or there's even like arguments about, like, you know, how

688
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 4: maybe human beings are born within innate ability to astrally

689
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 4: project their consciousness, you know, or to in some way

690
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 4: commune with you know, spiritual entities or what have you,

691
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 4: and they're a young and super competent we but that

692
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 4: we are taught to not do that right because it's

693
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 4: not reinforced and we're not in a society that accepts

694
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 4: that that's a thing. There are studies into that kind

695
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,359
Speaker 4: of stuff that maybe there are innate parts of our

696
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 4: brain that are capable of such things, but they're sort

697
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 4: of shut down by the environments that we find ourselves in.

698
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 3: They're also formative learning stages. And I love that point.

699
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 3: So if you don't learn a language by a certain

700
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 3: point and your neurotypical human being, it's going to be

701
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 3: tremendously difficult for you to learn any language after that?

702
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 4: Is it because of brain like elasticity and things like that?

703
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 4: Like you just sort of get it gets a little

704
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 4: made for lack of Maybe I'm over simplifying, but your

705
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 4: pathway is just get a little bit more rigid as

706
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 4: you get older personally.

707
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,760
Speaker 3: It also seems that there are optimal times to learn

708
00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 3: some stuff right in what we call these various formatives stages.

709
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 3: We also I love that you're bringing up and all

710
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 3: the point about possibly having certain aspects or aptitudes shut down, right, Like,

711
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 3: could you and this is a thought experiment here, could

712
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 3: you encourage if you throw ethics out the window Russian style?

713
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 3: Could you take a group of human children and by

714
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:24,479
Speaker 3: raising them, encourage them to develop something like sennastasia. Could

715
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 3: you just create those associations that then become physiological pathways

716
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 3: in the break the same way that the hippocampus of

717
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 3: someone who is a lending cab driver, for decades will

718
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 3: physically be larger than average. This kind of stuff is possible. Yes, yeah,

719
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 3: the knowledge what a cool name. But in either case

720
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 3: that doesn't really answer your question, headmaster. We found something weird.

721
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:52,760
Speaker 3: You might dig it if you don't know about this already.

722
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 3: Epigenetics and the sins and experiences of the past carrying

723
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:02,800
Speaker 3: over from generation to generation. This is possibly the closest

724
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 3: thing we have to something like genetic memory. Back in

725
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 3: twenty thirteen, guys, there was a study with a super

726
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 3: sexy name parental olfactory experience influences behavior and neural structure

727
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 3: and subsequent generations. So shout out to Brian Ds and

728
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 3: carry wrestler. What they found was this, and they didn't

729
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:27,240
Speaker 3: do humans that we know of, but they trained mice

730
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 3: to fear a specific smell to just lose their stuff.

731
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 3: This is torturous for the mice. These are innocent mice too.

732
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 3: These are not like war criminal rodents. These are not

733
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 3: the kissingers of nim or anything like that. But they

734
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 3: are trained, through various behavioral methods to freak the f

735
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 3: out when they encounter this smell, this ol factory stimulus.

736
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 3: And what the researchers found is that later when they

737
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 3: allowed or forced those mice to read their children, the

738
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:07,760
Speaker 3: subsequent generation without any intervention would have that same deep rooted,

739
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 3: primal fear of that smell.

740
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 2: Whoa was it like cool water or something?

741
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 3: It was dracar and war God knew well.

742
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 4: But so many of those things are defense mechanisms, you

743
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 4: know that are Again I'm sorry if I'm combining these

744
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 4: concepts incorrectly, but it just feels like evolutionary to me

745
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 4: that the things that stick around are the most beneficial

746
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 4: to the individuals who are members of a species or whatever.

747
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 2: That's mind blowing that occurred, that that study occurred, and

748
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 2: it worked right in putting that in that memory into

749
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 2: an offspring. I want to give a counterpoint to the

750
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 2: cat's cucumber thing because I and I don't know if

751
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,399
Speaker 2: maybe this is this person is just wrong that I'm

752
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 2: reading about, but I I always get confused with these

753
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 2: things because it feels right to me. Cats react to

754
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 2: those cucumbers because they think it's some kind of predator

755
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 2: behind them, right.

756
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 4: Would have been it?

757
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 2: And they remember but where they're just startled that see

758
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 2: that's this is the thing? Is it? Is it one

759
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:10,280
Speaker 2: or the other? Is it both?

760
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 4: The cats are hard to startle though, they're so cool

761
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 4: and like I'm collecting no o.

762
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 2: Well, listen, this is this is doctor Pamela Perry from

763
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 2: the Cornell Feline Health Center behavioralist specialist. She says in

764
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 2: an article you can find on vet dot Cornell dot edu. Quote,

765
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 2: cats don't have a natural fear of snakes. In fact,

766
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 2: a lot of them hunt snakes.

767
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 6: They do.

768
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, cats have different personalities. It might be the fearful

769
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 2: ones she's speaking about these videos. It might be the

770
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,280
Speaker 2: fearful ones are most likely to react to the appearance

771
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 2: of a novel object behind them that was not there

772
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 2: a minute earlier. So is it the appearance of something

773
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 2: that is you know, all of a sudden they are

774
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:56,439
Speaker 2: like Ben, like like Ben was just saying, or is it?

775
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 2: Or is it a snake? And how the heck? Like,

776
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 2: who's going to put a bunch of money behind testing

777
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 2: that and to figure out if cats actually are fearful

778
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 2: of a thing that appears to be a potential predator

779
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 2: behind them.

780
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good question, and I'd like to I

781
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 3: think that can apply across different organisms. The reason to

782
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 3: take it to the mice, The reason this is so

783
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:25,240
Speaker 3: fascinating is because one the best way to encode memory

784
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 3: in a lot of mammals is smell. That's why Pruce

785
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 3: wrote Taste of Things Remembered. It's all about how he

786
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,439
Speaker 3: eats a mattelin dipped in tea or something like that.

787
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 3: And then he's like, here's a novel that definitely I

788
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 3: will not allow to be edited because it goes on anyway.

789
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 3: If you want to learn more about the mice experiment,

790
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 3: please check out. If you don't want to pony up

791
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 3: for the paper, which is solid research, check out Smithsonian.

792
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 3: Rachel newer in Uwer wrote a great article about this

793
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,320
Speaker 3: great primer from twenty thirteen.

794
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,359
Speaker 2: Do we know what the smell was like? That that

795
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 2: could be intriguing to me? Like, is it a fully

796
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 2: novel smell that they would never encounter kind of thing?

797
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, you're anticipating this is what we're getting too.

798
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 3: The smell is a seed of finone A C E

799
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 3: T O P H E N O N E. I

800
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 3: do not know exactly what that smell's like. Yeah, we

801
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 3: know it's used in resins and different fragrances, so it's

802
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 3: something you could get your hands on. But if I

803
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 3: if we're looking at this idea. I think we would

804
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 3: need to first off say it's not it's not sulfurous,

805
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 3: it's not what you think is a bad smell. It's

806
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 3: actually like charity blossoms.

807
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 4: WHOA, Okay, that's what throws my whole perspective kind of

808
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 4: into disarray, like where is the self preservation aspect of this?

809
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 3: Because they have the idea is that these baby mice

810
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 3: who first they inculcated the males with the smell of

811
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 3: a thing that's kind of like cherry blossoms. It's like

812
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,959
Speaker 3: we had cherry blossoms at home. And then they took

813
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 3: the sperm from those males, inciminated, artificially inciminated female mice.

814
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 3: So the baby mice never met their father. Why is

815
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 3: this important Not because it's like a sad fival story

816
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 3: or anything, but because it shows us they were not

817
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 3: imprinted by watching the behavior of the parrot that have

818
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 3: been exposed. Yes, so it's pretty strange because they had

819
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 3: a control group and not only did not only did

820
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 3: the mice kiddos. I'm trying not to anthropomorphize, but I

821
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,359
Speaker 3: can't help it. We brought up an American tale. Not

822
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 3: only did the mice kiddos who had not been exposed.

823
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 3: Not only were they less afraid of the smell, but

824
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,959
Speaker 3: the kids who did come from the scared daddyos had

825
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 3: more physical aceta finone smell receptors. They were physiologically different.

826
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 3: That's a claim. Now, what does this mean? How much

827
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 3: can you scope in on that kind of innergenerational information

828
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 3: transfer if memory is to sticky a phrase we don't

829
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:16,839
Speaker 3: know yet. We also we haven't gotten to epigenetics. But epigenetics,

830
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 3: which we've talked about in the past, is a related

831
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 3: idea here headmasters. The idea. It's the concept that environmental

832
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 3: influences can affect how genes are expressed.

833
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,959
Speaker 2: And usually it's associated with negative ones. Right, that's all.

834
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 3: Kinds of starvation and such. Yeah.

835
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:38,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's even talk about people who survived the Holocaust

836
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 2: or who were immediately close to nine to eleven and

837
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 2: a bunch of other like traumatic experiences then passed some

838
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,879
Speaker 2: of that some of the traumatic response genes down there.

839
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:53,800
Speaker 3: And it raises serious questions about oppression too. Every society

840
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 3: as some group of people or multiple groups rather who

841
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 3: have been oppressed.

842
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 4: If it makes it like is you gotta wonder too?

843
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 4: Like is something like racism? And can that be epigenetic,

844
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 4: you know, like like it's a fear of an other

845
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 4: that your body just tells you is wrong. And that's

846
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 4: why certain like you know, cultures get historically a bad rap.

847
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 4: Beyond I don't have any reason to dislike Jewish people

848
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 4: or whatever it is, but yet something within an individual

849
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 4: might tell them scream out that there's a problem.

850
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's that's interesting because that's that's a slightly different aspect.

851
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 3: So we know racism is taught.

852
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 4: I agree, of course, I just we're positing wondering, you know.

853
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, we know that racism does have these probably does

854
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 3: have these deleterious effects in terms of people's health, you know,

855
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:46,319
Speaker 3: like because if you are experiencing the real life PTSD

856
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 3: of functioning in a society that is always out to

857
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 3: get you or treat you as less, then then that

858
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 3: may influence things that happen when your children, you know,

859
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,879
Speaker 3: maybe into certain medical conditions. The research still isn't there,

860
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 3: but we know epigenetics is real. If you want to

861
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 3: learn more about it, check out the New York Times

862
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:09,439
Speaker 3: article from twenty eighteen by Carl Zimmer. It's not the

863
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 3: first time we've quoted your work. Carl welcome back. He

864
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 3: talks about studies done on genes in Dutch populations, people

865
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 3: who starved in the Dutch famine of nineteen forty four

866
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 3: to forty five. The kids of these children and the

867
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:28,920
Speaker 3: folks who survived the famine and the privation, they had

868
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:35,240
Speaker 3: markedly different health outcomes, like dying at higher rates, higher

869
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 3: likelihood of having certain diseases. That is, I would argue

870
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 3: that may not be a conscious memory, but that is

871
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 3: a lot like a genetic memory. Does that sound fair?

872
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:46,400
Speaker 4: I think so?

873
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 2: WHOA.

874
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:50,359
Speaker 4: I don't know how else to think about it.

875
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 2: Guys, guys, you can buy a seat of penone fenone. However,

876
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 2: we say it on this website called Scent Spiracy for twelve.

877
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,479
Speaker 2: It's twelve mil leaders for twelve pounds, but they're sold out.

878
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 2: It's a conspiracy.

879
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 3: Indeed, so we're going to actually call it a little

880
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 3: bit early today. We've got one letter from home. We

881
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 3: are right now in full disclosure recording on what some

882
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:23,239
Speaker 3: of our friends call Thanksgiving Eve. We know the holidays

883
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 3: can be tough for a lot of people. Candidly, one

884
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 3: of those people depend on your family situation. So we

885
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:30,879
Speaker 3: do wish you the best and we want to thank

886
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 3: you so much for being with us here and being

887
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 3: the most important part of the show. The letter from

888
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 3: home will share, which I think we all saw, was.

889
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:43,880
Speaker 2: Is that voicemail if you met oh Man?

890
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 3: All right, it's an email from someone who didn't give

891
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 3: us a nickname. So we're gonna we're gonna freestyle here

892
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 3: and we're gonna call you a tabby cat. So I

893
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 3: like it to yeah, go with the cats, right, fear

894
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 3: no cucumber Tabby Cat. Tabby you said, have you guys

895
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 3: done an episode? This is just a cavalcade of the

896
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 3: suggestions have you done an episode? On Harold Holt's disappearance,

897
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:11,360
Speaker 3: former Australian Prime Minister Avid Swimmer. He believed oxygen tanks

898
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 3: were inauthentic, and he famously said to one person, come on, Tony,

899
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 3: what's the chance of an Australian prime minister drowning or

900
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 3: being eaten by a shark? And then he went missing

901
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:26,280
Speaker 3: swimming off the coast on the eastern head of Melbourne.

902
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 3: They named a swimming pool after him, but most people

903
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:32,840
Speaker 3: believed he drowned. Because this happened at the height of

904
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 3: the Cold War, there were a lot of conspiracy theories

905
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 3: surrounding it, you could and then the other suggestions you

906
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:43,800
Speaker 3: could do episodes on Australian history and Tabikat. As you

907
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 3: may have noticed by this point, we get a lot

908
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:48,879
Speaker 3: of Venn diagram with ridiculous history and stuff they once

909
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 3: you know, as a matter of fact, we often get

910
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:54,399
Speaker 3: together and say which is better which show, or we'll

911
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 3: do episodes both shows here. This may be a case.

912
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 3: Tabikat also asked about Kelly and about the New Zealand

913
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:08,320
Speaker 3: Treaty of Why Tongi and asked for an episode about

914
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 3: the Tasmanian Tiger or Luu. We've done the Tiger man.

915
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:15,399
Speaker 3: I'm bullish on the tiger. I want that bad boy

916
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 3: back so bad.

917
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 2: I remember that tiger Harold Holt was born exactly seventy

918
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 2: five years before me to the day. Just found that out.

919
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 3: Okay, nice August being.

920
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 2: Coincidence, I think, I think, so oh oh, you're right.

921
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 3: And we also covered a flight MG three seventy. I

922
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,760
Speaker 3: went and sent you that episode as well, tabby Kat.

923
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 3: We wanted to thank everybody for tuning in. We could

924
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 3: have a great episode on Harold Holt, so stay tuned.

925
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 3: We have so much that we didn't get to we

926
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 3: are going to talk with Squirrel Girl about food waste

927
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 3: in retail. We have we got a lot of court

928
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 3: feedback to get to, but for now we are going

929
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 3: to call it. In the evening, we're often activigate. Happy

930
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 3: Thanksgiving to all who celebrate. Kitty Thanksgiving is over by

931
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:09,920
Speaker 3: the time you hear this, so we hope you had

932
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 3: a good one. Big big thanks to Tabbycat Headmaster Chef, Donnie, Valerie, Winter,

933
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 3: Juniper and Squirrel Girl. Can't wait to hear from you, folks.

934
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 3: Help us out making some new episodes. Find us on

935
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 3: the emails, find us on the phones, find us on

936
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 3: the lines, lines, line.

937
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:30,240
Speaker 4: You can find us indeed all over the lines, Internet

938
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:31,879
Speaker 4: or otherwise. But if you're on the Internet, why don't

939
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 4: you look u up at Conspiracy Stuff where we exist

940
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 4: on Facebook with our Facebook group.

941
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 3: Here's where it gets crazy.

942
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 4: Get in on the conversation, hang out with all the

943
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 4: other conspiracy realists. It's a good time. You can also

944
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 4: find us that handle on x FKA, Nay, Twitter, and

945
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 4: on YouTube. We have video content Glory for your perusing

946
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:53,839
Speaker 4: and enjoyment on Instagram and TikTok. However, we are Conspiracy

947
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:54,800
Speaker 4: Stuff a show.

948
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 2: We do have a phone number. If you want to

949
00:53:57,239 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 2: be like, oh, I don't know Valerie or Jeff Donnie,

950
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 2: why not call one eight three three std WYTK before

951
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,320
Speaker 2: you call it, make it a contact in your phone

952
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 2: so if it calls you back, you won't be weirded out.

953
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:16,360
Speaker 2: Call it whatever you want, conspira boys, conspiracy stuff, whatever.

954
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 2: Just name it something so you know who it is

955
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 2: when you do call in. Give yourself a cool nickname

956
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 2: and let us know if we can use your name

957
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:25,879
Speaker 2: and message on one of these listener mail episodes. And hey,

958
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:28,400
Speaker 2: if you've got more to say, I think fit in

959
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 2: three minutes, why not instead send us a good old

960
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 2: fashioned email.

961
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 3: We are the entities that love hearing from you. Just

962
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 3: pop us a line, give us the links, give us

963
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:40,280
Speaker 3: the photos. We can all see it, we can all respond,

964
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 3: and this is something that always makes our day. We

965
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:45,800
Speaker 3: get some of the most fascinating letters, and the next

966
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:49,719
Speaker 3: one is probably from you. Remember any email you send

967
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,280
Speaker 3: us might not just inform a segment, but may inform

968
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 3: an episode. And if you want us to give you

969
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 3: a cool nickname, just write it. Or if you just

970
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:58,719
Speaker 3: want to write a letter from home and let us

971
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 3: know how stuff is going. Can't wait for you to

972
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:03,839
Speaker 3: join us out here in the dark conspiracy at iHeartRadio

973
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:23,720
Speaker 3: dot com.

974
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

975
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

976
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.