WEBVTT - Interview Only w/ Miriam Vogel & Anne Neuberger - Can Government Effectively Regulate The AI Arms Race? 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.360 This episode of the Chuck Todcast is brought to you 0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:06.240 by Wild Grain. Wild Grain is the first bake from 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:11.280 frozen subscription box for sour dough breads, artisonal pastries, and 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:14.800 fresh pastas, plus all the items conveniently baked in twenty 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:18.759 five minutes or less. Unlike many store brought options, Wild 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:21.880 Grain uses some simple ingredients you can pronounce and a 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:25.480 slow fermentation process that can be a lot easier on 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:28.080 your belly, little gut health there right, and richer in 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:32.600 nutrients antioxidants. There's also no preservatives and no shortcuts. The 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:35.800 Wild Grain boxes are fully customizable. 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It is fantastic. 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:04.640 They give you step by step instructions. 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:05.720 I really dig this. 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:10.120 There is nothing like having an artesion bakery in your freezer. 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:12.920 Right now, Wildgrain is offering my listeners thirty dollars off 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:16.880 your first box plus free cryissants for life. Come on 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:20.399 when you go to wildgrain dot com slash podcast to 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:23.440 start your subscription today. That's thirty dollars off your first 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:26.800 box and free croissants for life when you visit wildgrain 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:30.160 dot com slash podcast, or simply use the promo code 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:34.920 podcast at checkout. This is a sponsor I absolutely embrace, 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:41.240 so use that code. Hello there, I'm Chuck Todd and 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:44.800 welcome to another episode of Sunday Night Tonight. It's a 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:49.080 one topic deep dive on artificial intelligence, and maybe the 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:52.480 simplest way to frame the AI debate right now is this, 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:56.360 Americans are being asked to trust a new technological revolution 0:01:56.920 --> 0:01:59.920 at a moment when they're not entirely convinced the last 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:01.240 one worked out so well. 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:02.360 Think about it. 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:07.680 Search engines once felt empowering, social media once felt connective. 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:12.880 Online marketplaces once felt simpler and more useful. But over time, 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:16.720 many of those same technologies became harder to trust, distorted 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:22.480 by algorithms, advertising, misinformation, polarization, and the constant incentive to 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:26.280 monetize our attention. So when Selagon Valley tells the public, 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:30.320 don't worry, this next technological leap will change everything for 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:33.760 the better, it's understandable that many of us respond with 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:38.320 a little skepticism, or maybe a lot of skepticism, because 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:43.800 AI isn't some distant concept anymore. It's already shaping classrooms, workplaces, 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:48.400 financial systems, warfare, and even the information we consume every day, 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:53.960 which raises two very different but deeply connected questions. One, 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:58.600 how do we protect consumers from AI? And two how 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:02.280 do we protect country from AI? So tonight we're going 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:04.600 to explore both sides of this challenge. 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:06.239 Miriam Vogel joins me. First. 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:10.560 She chairs the National AI Advisory Committee and leads an 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:14.960 organization called Equal AI that's focused on governance, fairness, and 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:18.240 consumer trust. She's trying to answer the question how do 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:22.880 we build guardrails around AI before the technology outruns the 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:26.000 public's confidence in it. Then I'll be joined by and 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:30.880 Newburger on the issue of global security, because while Miriam 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:33.520 Vogel is trying to make sure AI doesn't discriminate against 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:36.360 you when you apply for a mortgage, and Newburger is 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:38.840 trying to make sure that same technology isn't used by 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:40.640 a foreign adversary. 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:41.240 To shut down the bank. 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:46.440 Altogether, it's the same technology, it's two completely different battlefields, 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:51.880 and somewhere between innovation and regulation, between opportunity and fear, 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:55.920 is the question governments around the world are now struggling 0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:58.920 to answer in real time, how do you govern a 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:05.200 technology that evolves faster than governments themselves. Tonight's conversation comes 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:09.080 to you from the Unconventional Diner. It's one of Washington's 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:12.880 great neighborhood spots, known for taking classic American comfort food 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:16.800 and giving it an inventive twist, which trankully feels like 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:20.760 the perfect backdrop for a conversation about technology trying to 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.240 reinvent itself in our everyday life. 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:27.080 So let's get started. Very in Bogo. It's nice to 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:27.360 see you. 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:31.280 Let me start with tell me a little something about 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:33.800 what equal AI is supposed to be. 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:37.680 So we created equal AI seven and a half years 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:40.800 ago because we saw the emergence of AI. We saw 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:44.320 that there was a deep enthusiasm starting to root across 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:47.240 the country and the globe, but without a lot of 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:50.840 understanding of the potential risks and the need for guardrails, 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:53.320 and so we created it that time more of a 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:59.600 temporary place where companies, policymakers, lawyers, other key stakeholders could 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:02.560 align on guardrails. How do we make sure that this 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:06.160 really serves people? How do we contain risks and make 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:09.400 sure that we can optimize use. So flash forward seven 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:11.760 and a half years, it turns out we have not 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:14.960 gone out of style in terms of meeting the big 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:17.960 place to align on guardrails and best practices. 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:22.720 The American electorates skepticism and AI seems very rational to me. 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:26.040 When you look at Web one point zero search and commerce, 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:29.200 the user experience at first was great, then the. 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:30.279 User became the product. 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:36.760 Social media, the initial launch seemed great, building up communities. 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:41.240 Then what happened algorithms, the user becomes. 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.719 The product, and so we don't like social media. 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:47.000 We're more frustrated than ever with how the regular old 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:50.839 Internet works, how Amazon or any of the online commerce 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:51.960 marketplaces work. 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:54.680 And so to me, it's very rational. 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:57.760 They look at AI and, oh, great, yet another way 0:05:57.760 --> 0:05:59.600 that just is going to exploit us. 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:03.240 I think you're absolutely right. We bring a lot of 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:06.320 tech baggage to this conversation, and I think There's another 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:08.760 layer of a problem here, and that's that we're not 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:12.640 listening to people we're expecting them to adopt AI. We're 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:14.080 talking about you say we. 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:16.160 Who do you feel like you're speaking for when you. 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:21.640 Say week leadership in general, corporate leadership, policymakers, I think 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:23.760 civil society. I think we all need to do a 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:25.720 better job of listening to people. 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:26.480 Know. 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:29.320 We've published a book in October called Governing the Machine 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:32.560 where we outline nine categories of risk, and each of 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:36.200 those categories is very meaningful, and we need to be 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:38.679 taking those into account when we're talking about how people 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:42.880 and why people should be using AI. So if your 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:46.039 concern is privacy, we can't dismiss that. We need to 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:49.200 talk about how we're going to address your privacy concerns 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:51.680 before we can expect you to be using it. I 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:53.840 think we need to be doing a better job of 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:57.280 having a nuanced conversation where first of all, we're telling 0:06:57.320 --> 0:07:00.159 people how we're using AI. Too many people don't know 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:02.480 that they have been using it all day, every day, 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:07.560 unlocking their phones, meeting their news feeds, scrolling through social media. 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:10.600 When to let people know that they are using it, 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:13.520 then we need to let people know what safe use 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:17.040 looks like. We need to be establishing what the frameworks 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:20.040 are that companies and organizations are putting in place so 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:23.240 they know who to trust and what trustworthy governance looks like. 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:26.280 All of this makes sense, except it doesn't look like 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:30.280 anybody in the industry is even remotely thinking about this. 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:35.880 Whether it's Open AI, whether it's Plowed, whether it's the 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:39.800 other Gemini, whether it's Rock everybody. I mean, when you 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:43.160 look at the amount of money being invested in infrastructure 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:46.480 to build out even more AI, that means there's a 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:48.760 whole bunch of investors looking to get their money extract 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:52.440 profits out of this. Nobody seems to be worried about guardrails. 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:56.920 In fact, I look at the whenever a new update concept, 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:01.120 it feels like, you know, there's how we so powerful. 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:05.160 We're not sure we can you know, we're not sure 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:08.240 that the new cybersecurity can handle it. It's like a 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:14.160 marketing ploy, not actually a serious attempt to add actually 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:15.880 doing baby steps. 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:18.840 Well, you're not wrong. A report last year from McKenzie 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:21.560 said that over eighty eight percent of companies are using 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:24.720 AI in at least one pivotal function that was a 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:27.160 year ago. It's probably a much higher number now, but 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:30.400 at that point only a third had any AI governance 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:33.840 in place. The World Economic Forum had a report earlier 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:37.120 this year that said only less than one percent of 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:41.920 companies have strong AI governance frameworks in place. So you 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:44.760 are correct that it is not something we're seeing a 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:47.840 lot of our hearing a lot about. Although I have 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:50.760 the privilege of working with companies that really do prioritize 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:53.679 AI governance, so I can tell you the good news 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:58.040 is there is alignment across industry for companies, for leaders 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:00.960 that care about AI governance. You'll not see a lot 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:05.320 of distinction between what those best practices are across the 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:09.200 companies and organizations that have strong AI governance frameworks. You'll 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:13.559 see visibility into how they're using AI. You'll see accountability 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:15.959 from the top. It has to start at the top, 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.960 but then across divisions so people understand who's the point person, 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:22.920 what they should be looking for. You'll see not just 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:25.200 AI principles, but operationalization. 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:29.360 I feel like you're describing what a company that might 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:33.360 adopt an AI platform into their business and integrate it, 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:37.120 that they may be taking care in trying to do 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:38.000 these things. 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:40.600 That's not who I'm talking about. I'm talking about. 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:45.200 The purveyors themselves, whether it's Open AI, Anthropic Google, with 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:51.040 Gemini or ix whatever we're calling the elon of musk 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:56.920 operation these days. What evidence that there is any interest 0:09:57.160 --> 0:09:59.080 in good governance in those far entities. 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:01.000 I can tell you the ones that I work with 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:04.199 so in our Badge program for senior executives, in our 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:07.280 agentic AI summit we had this week, we have some 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:10.360 of the best minds at Google, Deep Mind, at AWS 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:14.600 and Amazon Microsoft who are being very intentional about their 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:18.520 governance frameworks. You can look online to see what they've implemented. 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:20.760 You can talk to their senior executives who will be 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:24.120 very well versed in what they are doing intentionally and 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:26.840 across their companies to make sure they have strong governance 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:29.520 in place. But I don't want to dismiss the deployer 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:32.840 role because most of their applications that will have access 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:36.480 to and that we're currently using, are from those large 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:39.160 companies small companies that are using AI who also have 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:41.040 a key role in making sure that it's safe. 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:47.120 If the industry is so concerned about governance, why are 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:50.360 they fighting Why are they fighting state based regulation? Why 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:52.240 is it so important to them to convince the Trump 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:55.520 administration to do whatever it takes to prevent. 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:00.079 What many of us refer to as the laboratories of democracy. 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:03.480 In state government's figuring out a way to protect consumers. 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:04.360 From a state level. 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:07.160 Yeah, and it's a fair question. I think, first of all, 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:09.600 there's nuance in what different companies are and are not 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:13.760 pushing for. But to your question about state versus federal 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:16.760 I'm a former general counsel, so I have sympathy into 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:19.240 how hard it is to respond to a patchwork of laws. 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:22.120 I think it's in everyone's best interest that there're certainty 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:25.240 and clarity, not just across the country, but across the globe. 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:28.120 I mean, we're talking about AI. It doesn't have boundaries, 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:31.040 and users across the globe are going to need that 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:34.720 it's safe and lawful. So the war we have clarity 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:38.160 and certainty and uniformity, the easier it is to be compliant. 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:44.000 I understand that. But if you have a dysfunctional Congress, 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:48.240 it is not a functioning body of government. They're at 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:51.960 war with each other. You have a we don't have 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:55.760 a federal government interested in these safeguards, So why step 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:57.040 on the state governments from Trump. 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:00.400 I can't speak to that. What I can say is 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:05.280 I do personally have some great experience of good things happening, 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:09.080 the very thoughtful, proactive things happening in the government space. 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:12.520 So for instance, at our agentic AI summit this week, 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.800 we got to talk with the Acting Secretary of Labor 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:19.640 who's being very forward thinking and proactive about preparing the 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:23.440 workforce and employers for an AI economy. They have an 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:27.240 AI literacy framework. Most people don't know what AI literacy is, 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:29.480 and so they've broken it down for employers so they 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:32.960 can adopt and learn from this framework. They have text 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:36.920 based AI literacy tools, and that's really important because when 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:41.080 we're thinking about AI literacy, not every American has access 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:45.840 to Wi Fi, and so if you have an application online, 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:48.520 many people will not have access to it. So they've 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:52.040 created a digestible text based program where people can get 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:55.520 a ten minute overview and introduction to AI. That will 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:59.679 not make everybody AI ready workforce in terms of being 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:02.480 an end and neuro computer scientists, but at least gets 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:04.560 people over the hump of knowing what AI is and 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:05.360 how they're using it. 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:08.600 I feel like we're trying to do multiple things here. 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:11.560 That sounds like we're on the education side, how to 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:13.800 get people up to speed, how to get people comfortable 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:15.640 with using if it was like trying to teach me 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:19.400 a body, he's a personal computer. Well, what about the 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:22.920 consumer protection side? And that's where it seems as if 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:29.640 the industry is petrified of any attempt at a regulation 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:32.800 that's consumer protection because they say, well, that's stepping on 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:38.760 our ability to be able to either beat China in 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:40.800 the AI race or keep up with China. 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:43.840 You're right, we need to have our eye on the 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:47.680 state houses and the congresses across the globe to understand 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:50.720 what new laws are coming down. But we also should 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:52.960 not lose sight where I think most of this plays out, 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:56.360 and that's in the courthouses. I think most of how 0:13:56.400 --> 0:14:00.440 AI is regulated will come down to how courts are citing, 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:03.320 how current laws on the books will be applied to 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:06.360 AI use. We have three chapters in the book on 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:12.120 how different countries across the globe have laws currently in 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:15.120 place that will be impactful. We've seen it play out 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.680 in IP and copyright that will only increase in the 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:22.360 years to come. We've seen it in several other privacy 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:24.800 areas and so forth. I think we can expect. 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:26.200 All eminating out of Europe. 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:27.920 Right we have no way of case law here in 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:31.240 the US as well. For sure, I think will increasingly 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:37.440 see towards law consumer protection laws, contract laws where we'll 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:40.760 be deciding who has liability because the lawyers are catching 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:44.040 on to this and they will make sure that there 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:46.640 is liability for those that are taking their eye off 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:50.920 the ball in terms of safety and what the negative 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:52.640 risks and impacts could result in. 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:57.400 Let's assume we had a functioning, feral legislative branch that 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:00.640 was going to look at this not as seeing which 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:02.680 side is going to contribute the most amount of money 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:04.680 to their mentor, because that's the other part of this. 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:09.280 All of the AI associated super PACs I think are 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:12.080 sort of warping the conversation on regulation. Let's assume we 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:19.400 didn't have this political cloud hanging over what would what 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:24.720 is a recommendation of what first step regulation. 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:27.480 Would look like with AI bodels and what. 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:34.040 Entity in the government is best equipped to regulate these ais. 0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:39.800 It's a great question. I think there's more. We need 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:43.080 more certainty on what the expectations are out of companies. 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:48.120 We need to understand The basic question with AI use 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:50.200 that we always need to be able to answer, which 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:52.360 is for who could this fail? We need to make 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:56.720 sure that AI deployment are designed around thinking about what 0:15:56.760 --> 0:16:00.360 the human use cases are and what the actual application are. 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:03.960 And I think there's a role for every agency and government. 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:06.640 They're all going to be using AI personally if they're 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:09.280 not already. We know there's an executive order mandating it's 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:12.680 being used across agencies as well as the oversight, but 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:15.600 I don't want to lose sight of the other ways 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:19.320 that this is where leadership is popping up. So with 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:22.280 Equal AI, we've been doing an AI literacy tour across 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:25.720 the country to listen to people, to hear what they're seeing, 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:29.400 what they're worried about, but also to elevate leadership. What 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:35.240 it looks like when AI leadership is what it looks 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:37.920 like when we have AI leadership. So for instance, we've 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:42.040 been to Tennessee, We've been to Arizona. We're having conversations 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:44.920 and cities across the country where we're seeing mayors who 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:49.040 are using it for smart traffic management, creating resource hubs 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:53.120 so that small businesses are in touch with academics, training, 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:57.440 our next gen, but also getting small businesses AI ready. 0:16:57.960 --> 0:16:59.880 I think there's a lot of tools that we have 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:04.200 now at our disposal where we have foundations of leadership, 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:06.520 and so we just need to understand what does that 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:09.919 look like. You know, at ASU where they are leaning 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:14.920 into AI USE, they're giving students the capabilities of generative 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:18.480 models and that even how will I am teaching augentic 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:22.480 AI used to their students. So I think we actually 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:25.040 have a lot of opportunities for leadership that we shouldn't 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:25.639 be overlooking. 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:28.520 I hear you, but this I mean talk about scattershot 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:33.720 like we just described, seems the scatter shot and frankly, 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:37.760 and again I'm liking you'd like defend all of these 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:40.480 and and I don't. I don't mean to try to 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:43.240 put you on the defensive, but it does appear to 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.359 be that it's all scattershot, and it's really those that 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:52.439 have the ability to to maybe even curiosity to be 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:55.359 first movers and to learn this stuff. We'll do it, 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:59.639 but we I mean, it does feel as if this 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:02.879 is way ahead of anny guardrails that are even remotely 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:04.320 ready to be used. 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:06.600 You know, I think you're getting at something check that 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:09.879 we need to be prepared for AI is a disruptor, 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:11.920 and I think we need to look at this as 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:15.520 a disruption for good. We can't operate in silos anymore. 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:19.240 AI connects us all and makes us all dependent on 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:22.800 one another to ensure that we know how each other 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:26.080 fit into the use cases. We can't imagine that only 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:28.280 within our company are we going to be impacted by 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:30.680 our AI use We can't imagine only within our state. 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:34.879 There's overlap across boundaries when we're talking about AI, and 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:36.840 so we're going to have to break silos. We're going 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:40.720 to have to rethink culture in organizations where you can't 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:45.480 just you know, pinpoint which agency or which department is 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:49.239 in charge of AI. It is across organizations, it is 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:52.600 across states, and you're right, it's dissipated. It's not the 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:55.840 way we're constructed. But we're going to have to rethink that's. 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:55.840 Talking about it. 0:18:57.119 --> 0:19:02.600 I guess, agentic AI, do you really think we're ready 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:05.800 for AI to make decisions without a human interface. 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:10.120 I think there are a lot of concerns about the 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:14.480 state of readiness with agentic AI because of the statistics 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:17.280 we talked about that if less than one percent of 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:20.800 companies have strong AI governance in place, they are not 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:25.040 prepared for AI deployment, let alone agentic AI deployment. I 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:28.240 mentioned we had an agentic AI summit this week where 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:31.760 we were looking at what is the optimal use cases 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:33.680 of a dentic AI. What does it look like if 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:37.240 we get this right. We looked at challenges, We looked 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:40.160 at the map between where we are today and how 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:43.040 we will need to prioritize the steps to get to 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:46.400 the optimal end state. And you could only do this 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:49.600 if you have strong governance in place. And again, I 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:51.960 think we need to break down what we mean by governance. 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:55.600 You know, too many people think it's a government responsibility 0:19:55.880 --> 0:20:00.560 or a stop gapped innovation. We really need to understand 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:04.800 that governance is something that leadership needs to be held 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:08.520 accountable for and take ownership of whatever your organization is 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:11.159 because you're going to be using AI, and we need 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:14.440 to be realizing that it is the norms, the culture, 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:19.200 the practices that build trust and really unlock the benefits 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:20.360 of this innovation. 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:25.119 Is you know, and this could happen because of the 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:27.600 populist backlash that I think is coming right now with AI. 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:29.240 Right some of it has to do with what I 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:30.320 talked about with social. 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:33.239 Media, Others will be fear of AI job displacement, and 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:36.720 you can just feel that there is certainly exploitable anger 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:39.720 out there in our politics that you could see if 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:46.480 Congress passed the law next that said no AIP, you 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:49.480 cannot use agentic AI. 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:51.680 Period. 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:53.960 There has to be a human interface at the very 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:59.600 very end, whether it's confirming a purchase, confirming a decision, 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:02.119 that it cannot be. 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:03.399 Left only to. 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:08.639 The AI platform. 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:10.359 What would the industry say to something. 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:12.760 I think it would say that you're a little late 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:17.080 because it is being deployed. So we cannot slow down innovation. 0:21:17.600 --> 0:21:22.119 We can speed up governance. That's our only option. Governance 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:26.040 is the seatbelts in a car. It's the speed limits. 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:28.919 It's knowing there's a doometer. We wouldn't get in a 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:32.080 car if we wouldn't if we weren't sure that we 0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:32.359 had these. 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:37.160 The industry bought seatbelts literally until the debts piled up. 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:40.040 I mean, are we going to have the industry fight 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:45.320 regulation literally until there are what we have right now 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:48.920 with social media, a pile up of lawsuits that hey, 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:50.400 they made a defective product. 0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:54.000 Well that's why we need to have more of alignment 0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:57.920 on what these best practices are, What are the safeguards 0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:00.560 that everyone should be adopting when they're you using AI, 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:03.199 because then we know what it looks like to be 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:06.440 doing this well. I think at the end of the day, 0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:10.680 we've seen time and again that people will not adopt innovation. 0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:13.560 I mean, look at the ROI on investment. You see 0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:17.560 tremendous investment in AI. We're not seeing the ROI for 0:22:17.720 --> 0:22:21.320 many companies, and I'm very convinced, and the data show 0:22:21.600 --> 0:22:24.040 it's because they don't have governance in place and because 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:27.680 they haven't taken the time to deploy AI literacy. 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:31.320 Is there anything to be learned as as we try 0:22:31.320 --> 0:22:34.360 to catch up on governments governance with AI, about. 0:22:34.160 --> 0:22:36.320 What we didn't do with social media? 0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:39.920 Yeah, there's a lot of lessons to be learned. Where 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:44.800