WEBVTT - Controlling Your Attention to Apps

0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.160
<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg

0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:08.079
<v Speaker 1>Quick Takes Tim Stenovic on Bloomberg Radio. I want to

0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:10.840
<v Speaker 1>get right to our guest. He's really interesting and you

0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:14.680
<v Speaker 1>might remember um a story by Bloomberg's Missy Gafa Poulu

0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:18.320
<v Speaker 1>that began with in Silicon Valley near a All is

0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:20.720
<v Speaker 1>the habits guy. Want to understand how to get app

0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:24.400
<v Speaker 1>users to come back and again? Then A all is

0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:26.279
<v Speaker 1>your man. That's what she wrote in his story. He

0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:28.760
<v Speaker 1>is a former lecturer at Stanford's Graduate School of Business

0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.600
<v Speaker 1>and angel investor. He has studied our companies such as

0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:35.040
<v Speaker 1>Facebook now of course, Meta and Twitter encourage users to

0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:38.320
<v Speaker 1>spend time on their platforms. He's also author of a book,

0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:41.839
<v Speaker 1>It was out in Hooked, how to build habit forming products.

0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:45.760
<v Speaker 1>His website is Near and Far and dot com and

0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:49.640
<v Speaker 1>he joins us in our Bloomberg Interactive Broker Studio. Welcome, Thanks,

0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:51.479
<v Speaker 1>great to be here, great background. I feel like I

0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:53.040
<v Speaker 1>have a million questions, so you're just gonna have to

0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:56.640
<v Speaker 1>stay for the next sixtew minutes, Like cancel the next show. UM,

0:00:57.040 --> 0:00:59.480
<v Speaker 1>tell us a little bit about like we were talking

0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:02.680
<v Speaker 1>about the or ring, which you have on um all

0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:06.840
<v Speaker 1>of this information and all of this information gadgets are gathering,

0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:09.440
<v Speaker 1>gadgets that we're wearing. Is it a good thing for us?

0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:11.959
<v Speaker 1>And Mike talked about, you know, he's on his phone

0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:14.679
<v Speaker 1>all the time. Is this good for society? It's a

0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:16.759
<v Speaker 1>great question. Is it good? Is it bad? The answers yes,

0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:20.479
<v Speaker 1>it's both. Pauvarlio has a wonderful quote. He said, when

0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:24.280
<v Speaker 1>we invented the ship, we invented the shipwreck. So of

0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:26.959
<v Speaker 1>course every new technology, especially one on such a massive

0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:29.760
<v Speaker 1>scale as the Internet, is going to have goods and

0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:32.679
<v Speaker 1>beds about how we manage those. You know, you're I'm

0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:36.320
<v Speaker 1>wondering about sort of the chemicals that are at play,

0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:39.199
<v Speaker 1>like the brain chemicals. You know you always hear about, Well,

0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:43.399
<v Speaker 1>if you get a notifications on your is that a

0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:47.119
<v Speaker 1>real thing? You know? Do is there dopamine or whatever?

0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:50.320
<v Speaker 1>You know, happiness chemicals at work when you when you

0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:52.640
<v Speaker 1>get addicted to an app and you're and you're you know,

0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:54.960
<v Speaker 1>I love to see those notifications and stuff like that.

0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:57.360
<v Speaker 1>Yes and no, I hate to give a wishy washy answer,

0:01:57.400 --> 0:01:59.840
<v Speaker 1>but typically if you hear somebody talk about dopamine s

0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:04.760
<v Speaker 1>where it's just discount everything, they say, because it's so overused.

0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:08.160
<v Speaker 1>It's so overplayed. Everything releases dopamine. When you hug somebody,

0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:10.040
<v Speaker 1>you get dopamine. When you learn to play the piano

0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:12.880
<v Speaker 1>or play tennis, you get a squared of dopamine. Dopamine

0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:14.840
<v Speaker 1>is not cocaine in the brain. It's like a different

0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:17.320
<v Speaker 1>scale than using an app. So the whole idea of

0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:20.560
<v Speaker 1>getting addicted to an app or hijacking your brain is

0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:23.200
<v Speaker 1>so overplayed if you actually look at the research and

0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:25.959
<v Speaker 1>you talk to the people who study this stuff. Some

0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:27.920
<v Speaker 1>people get addicted, of course, just like some people get

0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:30.840
<v Speaker 1>addicted to alcohol. Right, alcohol is highly addictive, but not

0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:32.600
<v Speaker 1>everybody who has a glass of wine with dinner is

0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:36.239
<v Speaker 1>an alcoholic. Right, About three to five of population is addicted,

0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:39.480
<v Speaker 1>but it's not. It's certainly not everyone. Addiction is a pathology,

0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:41.960
<v Speaker 1>and just because some people get addicted doesn't mean everyone will.

0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:45.200
<v Speaker 1>So these little dopamine hits that we get aren't. It's

0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:49.040
<v Speaker 1>something pretty natural that we'd probably be getting something. And

0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:52.160
<v Speaker 1>we remember, we want products to get better products. Being

0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:55.440
<v Speaker 1>engaging is not a problem, it's progress. We're gonna say, hey, Apple,

0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:58.519
<v Speaker 1>your phones are really easy to use. Stop that Netflix

0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:00.320
<v Speaker 1>your shows. I want to watch them all the time.

0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:02.960
<v Speaker 1>Can you please make boring shows? It's ridiculous. It's a

0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:05.520
<v Speaker 1>wonderful thing that the world is becoming more engaging, but

0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:08.079
<v Speaker 1>the cost of this is that we have to learn

0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:10.360
<v Speaker 1>some new manner, some new norms and new ways of

0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:11.799
<v Speaker 1>being in the world so that we can get the

0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:15.640
<v Speaker 1>best of these products without letting them Because I can't imagine.

0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:16.959
<v Speaker 1>You know how many times you walk into like a

0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:19.160
<v Speaker 1>subway train and like just people are just involved, you know,

0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:21.160
<v Speaker 1>so engaged either in their phone or something, and you

0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:22.840
<v Speaker 1>feel kind of rude, kind of moving around. And I

0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:25.239
<v Speaker 1>do feel like we need to kind of rethink how

0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:29.280
<v Speaker 1>we interact and engage in society as a whole. Um.

0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:33.560
<v Speaker 1>So I think about things like healthcare. Uh. And it's funny.

0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:34.880
<v Speaker 1>I had a t MJ or do you have a

0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:38.000
<v Speaker 1>t MJ issue? Um? And I actually have an app

0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:40.480
<v Speaker 1>that reminds me to relax my jaw. And it sounds

0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:42.720
<v Speaker 1>so stupid and silly, and I kind of laughed when

0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:44.640
<v Speaker 1>my doctor said, I want you to download this app.

0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:48.040
<v Speaker 1>It's a very simple app, but it works. How do

0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:50.400
<v Speaker 1>you think about how we could get so much more

0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:54.080
<v Speaker 1>in the healthcare and wellness space. When it comes to

0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:58.040
<v Speaker 1>apps and you know whether it's workable technology, how do

0:03:58.080 --> 0:03:59.960
<v Speaker 1>you see it? How do you see that it should

0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:02.280
<v Speaker 1>play at is playing? So we were talking about before

0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:05.720
<v Speaker 1>we went on air, about how I get a gadget.

0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:08.040
<v Speaker 1>Almost every week somebody sends me something to try out.

0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:11.760
<v Speaker 1>Because I'm in this health change space. Healthcare is specifically

0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:13.720
<v Speaker 1>taking off. I mean, I think one thing I'm super

0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:17.400
<v Speaker 1>excited about our continuous glucost monitors. Have you seen those

0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:19.760
<v Speaker 1>around for? It used to be something that only diabetics

0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:22.000
<v Speaker 1>war and it's it's a game change, my mother in law,

0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:24.920
<v Speaker 1>and you start seeing them on people's arms. What you

0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:27.400
<v Speaker 1>start seeing now is that people who don't have diabetes

0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:30.159
<v Speaker 1>are now tracking their gluecost because it's so easy to

0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:32.040
<v Speaker 1>do that. Now you can track it throughout the day.

0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:33.839
<v Speaker 1>And and there's several companies I work with a few

0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:36.919
<v Speaker 1>that will tell you before you eat, right before you

0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:39.960
<v Speaker 1>get a snack, check your glucose. Why because it will

0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:43.920
<v Speaker 1>tell you whether you are psychologically hungry or physically hungry.

0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:46.120
<v Speaker 1>And sometimes it's hard for us to tell the difference.

0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:48.440
<v Speaker 1>So by looking at this, happen saying, actually, my blood

0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:50.280
<v Speaker 1>glucose is fine, I really don't need a snack. Let

0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:52.960
<v Speaker 1>me wait fifteen minutes that can delay snacking. So that's

0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:54.800
<v Speaker 1>just one small example. But I think we're gonna see

0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:57.240
<v Speaker 1>an explosion of these new behavior change apps. All right,

0:04:57.320 --> 0:04:59.880
<v Speaker 1>So what are some of your favorite you know, either

0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:02.039
<v Speaker 1>apps are products that are out there, let's say for

0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:04.839
<v Speaker 1>working out, because there's so many. Yeah, So one of

0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:07.560
<v Speaker 1>the apps I talked about in my book Hooked is

0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:10.320
<v Speaker 1>uh an app called fit bod f I T B

0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:13.200
<v Speaker 1>O D. And I love this app because I actually

0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:15.320
<v Speaker 1>put out a blog post. I was so frustrated with

0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:17.640
<v Speaker 1>how bad most fitness apps were. I put out a

0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:20.120
<v Speaker 1>blog post that the title was why your fitness app

0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:22.400
<v Speaker 1>is making you fat? Because they were so bad. All

0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:24.480
<v Speaker 1>of them were so terrible. And then somebody told me

0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:28.040
<v Speaker 1>about fit bod so bad? Was it just because they

0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.520
<v Speaker 1>didn't form a habit? Okay, got it? And so I

0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:32.800
<v Speaker 1>I downloaded fit bond and I started using it, and

0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:34.800
<v Speaker 1>I said, oh my goodness, this is actually really great

0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:36.680
<v Speaker 1>and it looks like it's following the hook model. Hook

0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:38.320
<v Speaker 1>models what I based my book on my class at

0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:40.720
<v Speaker 1>Stanford on and so I just went to the customer

0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:42.839
<v Speaker 1>support email thing and I sent them to you have

0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:45.359
<v Speaker 1>you by chance read my book? Within thirty seconds? The

0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:47.200
<v Speaker 1>founder wrote me back and said, yes, we actually built

0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:50.320
<v Speaker 1>the hook model into the app. And it's I use

0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:52.480
<v Speaker 1>fit bod every time I work out. I mean, I'm

0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:54.400
<v Speaker 1>forty four years old, best shape of my life because

0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:57.080
<v Speaker 1>of this app. It's fantastic. Well, near cuts to the

0:05:57.160 --> 0:05:59.799
<v Speaker 1>chase here, How can Carol and I make this show

0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:03.039
<v Speaker 1>more habit forming? That's what we need? What we need huge?

0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:08.880
<v Speaker 1>We have a huge Do we need a bitually listening?

0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:10.480
<v Speaker 1>What do we what do we do? Well? You're you're

0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:13.400
<v Speaker 1>you're doing great so far that's fantastic. So the ho

0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:18.680
<v Speaker 1>model has has another segment. Let's say, okay, how do

0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:23.440
<v Speaker 1>we analyze twenty seconds? That's the most important part. The

0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:26.560
<v Speaker 1>fuel that we see is the backbone of every habit

0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:29.680
<v Speaker 1>forming product is a variable reward, right, some kind of

0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:32.960
<v Speaker 1>intermittent reinforcement. Of course you have it in that you product.

0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:34.960
<v Speaker 1>By the news, the first three letters of news. Any

0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:37.680
<v Speaker 1>w new It's all about variability. So that's what makes

0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:42.000
<v Speaker 1>sports engaging, what makes slot machines so so intoxicating, what

0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:44.479
<v Speaker 1>makes social media fun, It's all about the new, new new,

0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:47.680
<v Speaker 1>The variability so you've got that as your backbones, not personality.

0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:50.880
<v Speaker 1>Of course, I'm crushed. Maybe you won't come back now,

0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:53.480
<v Speaker 1>I'm just kidding. Good look, we're going to come back,

0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:55.920
<v Speaker 1>and you're in just a moment, So I want to

0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:58.560
<v Speaker 1>get back to a guest. We're still talking with Near

0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:02.679
<v Speaker 1>I l he is the habit sky as our Bloomberg's

0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:05.400
<v Speaker 1>Missy Gafa Poolo had written about. But he was a

0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:08.440
<v Speaker 1>former lecturer at Stanford's Graduate School of Business. He has

0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:11.360
<v Speaker 1>studied how companies, as we mentioned like Meta and Twitter

0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:13.840
<v Speaker 1>encourage users to spend time on the platforms. Check out

0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:17.680
<v Speaker 1>his book Hooked, How to Build Habit Forming Products. And

0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:20.680
<v Speaker 1>he's also got a blog website near and Ford dot

0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:22.560
<v Speaker 1>com and he's still with us in our studio. So

0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:27.080
<v Speaker 1>we were talking about wellness and health apps in particular

0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:32.320
<v Speaker 1>for some of our audience. UM Peloton right somewhere addicted.

0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:36.640
<v Speaker 1>There's something that really rode a high no pun intended,

0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:40.520
<v Speaker 1>and then obviously has has come undone a bunch. What

0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:42.520
<v Speaker 1>do you think about that? Yeah, it's it's a super

0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:44.560
<v Speaker 1>interesting story because I think it's a great example of

0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:48.520
<v Speaker 1>why variability is so important for habit formation, that if

0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:52.200
<v Speaker 1>something is not variable. If it's predictable, it's boring, right.

0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:55.080
<v Speaker 1>I think about game games, right, everybody wants to gamify everything,

0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:58.880
<v Speaker 1>put points, advatagine and leaders, but most games people burn

0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:01.400
<v Speaker 1>out on. Right, think about member Farmville. Farmville was like

0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:03.640
<v Speaker 1>the biggest thing ever back in what two thousand and twelve.

0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:08.000
<v Speaker 1>Who's playing Farmville anymore? Nobody? Why? Because after Farmville it

0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:12.120
<v Speaker 1>was Chefville and uh whatever, frontier Ville was like the same. Yeah,

0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:14.520
<v Speaker 1>you're telling nobody's gonna be playing Wortle in a few years.

0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:18.040
<v Speaker 1>You may be surprised, Okay, as long as that. You know,

0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:21.280
<v Speaker 1>what's great about word is that it's social, Yeah, as

0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:25.280
<v Speaker 1>opposed to solitary expanses like Peloton. So Peloton during the pandemic,

0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:26.760
<v Speaker 1>when you couldn't go to the gym, you couldn't do

0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:29.040
<v Speaker 1>the things that used to do. It was very novel.

0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:32.160
<v Speaker 1>It's this this screen on your on your bike. It

0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:34.000
<v Speaker 1>is so interesting, so in with people. But then you

0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:35.959
<v Speaker 1>do it three or four times and you kind of

0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:38.680
<v Speaker 1>got the idea. Right, It's say, it's the same routines,

0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:41.080
<v Speaker 1>it's not variable enough. Let alone the fact that it's

0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:43.760
<v Speaker 1>hard work, right, You're you're really pushing yourself. So it's

0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:46.760
<v Speaker 1>Uh that I think was what what what went wrong

0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:50.160
<v Speaker 1>was that they didn't maintain the sense of variability. Yeah,

0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:52.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, you're talk to us a little bit about

0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:54.360
<v Speaker 1>some of the companies you've invested in over the year

0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:57.600
<v Speaker 1>and how this notion of habit forming it had sort

0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:00.040
<v Speaker 1>of played into your thesis of whether or not a

0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:02.079
<v Speaker 1>company's worth investing in. And if you give us some

0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:05.280
<v Speaker 1>examples of where where it worked, well, yeah, it's it's

0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:09.000
<v Speaker 1>been amazing. So the book came out in Hooked How

0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:11.959
<v Speaker 1>to Build Habitforming Products, and uh, it's been used in

0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:15.559
<v Speaker 1>every conceivable industry. Education is one I'm super proud of

0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:17.439
<v Speaker 1>whenever I see a company using the hook model. A

0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:19.719
<v Speaker 1>few years ago, I got a call from these young

0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:23.240
<v Speaker 1>entrepreneurs uh in Norway building this little app. They showed

0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:25.440
<v Speaker 1>me the Hook model. I was so impressed. I immediately said,

0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:26.800
<v Speaker 1>please take my money. I want to, I want to,

0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:28.640
<v Speaker 1>I want in because they showed me how they really

0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:31.120
<v Speaker 1>applied the book. And today that company's cahoot, it's the

0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:34.960
<v Speaker 1>most widely used educational software in the world. Uh. And uh,

0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:37.040
<v Speaker 1>I've got the last time I checked that a multibillion

0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:39.800
<v Speaker 1>dollar valuation. And what are they doing. They're getting kids

0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:42.360
<v Speaker 1>hooked onto online learning. So how are they doing that?

0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:44.480
<v Speaker 1>What are some of the techniques? Yeah, so they have

0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:46.959
<v Speaker 1>this really innovative it's like a it's uh, you you

0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:50.160
<v Speaker 1>get the so the hook model. I'm trying to summarize, uh,

0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:53.000
<v Speaker 1>three page book and and don't do any seconds. But

0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:55.599
<v Speaker 1>essentially what they're doing is, uh, they're getting kids to

0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:59.000
<v Speaker 1>invest in making these quizzes on their own to share

0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:02.079
<v Speaker 1>with their peers. And so that investment phase this is

0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:04.720
<v Speaker 1>really special. That that's great. Yeah, the investment phase where

0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:07.000
<v Speaker 1>you put effort into something to make it better. So

0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:09.840
<v Speaker 1>when you are the person making the quiz, right, as

0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:11.719
<v Speaker 1>opposed to saying that when we were in school was

0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:14.679
<v Speaker 1>a pop quiz Today that sucks right, horrible. Here the

0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:17.240
<v Speaker 1>kids are making it for their peers and then in

0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:20.720
<v Speaker 1>the class they're playing these quizzes. So anybody body with kids,

0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:23.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, under probably fourteen, I bet you your kids

0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:25.920
<v Speaker 1>have know all about cahoot. And that's a wonderful example.

0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:27.599
<v Speaker 1>You only we only hear about the bad cases. We

0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:30.880
<v Speaker 1>only hear about Facebook and Snapchat melting kids brains. I

0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:33.439
<v Speaker 1>think that story is overblown. But we also need to

0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:35.160
<v Speaker 1>talk about the good examples of how we can actually

0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:37.760
<v Speaker 1>use habit for me, technology for good. Well, you know,

0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:39.480
<v Speaker 1>and here we are. You know, we're not out of

0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:41.640
<v Speaker 1>the pandemic, because we often say, you know, on the

0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:43.280
<v Speaker 1>other side of the pandemic, we're not quite there. But

0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:45.559
<v Speaker 1>it's certainly very different than it was in the you know,

0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:48.559
<v Speaker 1>height of it. But we're trying to figure out, you

0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:53.240
<v Speaker 1>know what, what trends, what habits that we formed during

0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:55.240
<v Speaker 1>the pandemic stay with us or do you think they

0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:57.160
<v Speaker 1>just all go away? Because that was just such a

0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:00.840
<v Speaker 1>different world. It's hard to say what it's better or worse.

0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:03.640
<v Speaker 1>It's definitely different, right, So the things that changed that

0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:05.720
<v Speaker 1>we talk a lot of in the habit formation about

0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:09.160
<v Speaker 1>internal triggers. Internal triggers are uncomfortable emotional states that we

0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:12.520
<v Speaker 1>seek to escape. So every product you use, every product

0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:15.400
<v Speaker 1>you use for one reason, and that is to feel

0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:18.760
<v Speaker 1>something different, to modulate your mood. Because all human behavior

0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:22.200
<v Speaker 1>is motivated by a desire to escape discomfort. All human behavior,

0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:26.120
<v Speaker 1>even the desire to feel good, is psychologically destabilizing. So

0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:28.400
<v Speaker 1>when we went into the pandemic and now we have

0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:31.319
<v Speaker 1>all these internal triggers of fear, uncertainty, doubt all of

0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:33.599
<v Speaker 1>these things that are causing us more internal triggers. What

0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:36.000
<v Speaker 1>changed While people were glued to the news, they were

0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:38.600
<v Speaker 1>scrolling their devices all day long. They were constantly looking

0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:40.880
<v Speaker 1>for an escape from this crazy world that we had

0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:43.200
<v Speaker 1>back then. And so as the world calms down, now

0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:45.839
<v Speaker 1>we're we're or at least in the world never is

0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:49.560
<v Speaker 1>not crazy, but at least this phase is over. Uh,

0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:53.320
<v Speaker 1>we're we're looking for other ways to deal with that discomfort,

0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:55.800
<v Speaker 1>to deal with whatever we're we're handling. Like the same

0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:59.000
<v Speaker 1>goes with workplace distractions, right, So people are not getting

0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:03.040
<v Speaker 1>distracted at home from their from their kids, or from

0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:04.600
<v Speaker 1>their pets. Now that they're going back into the office.

0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:07.040
<v Speaker 1>What we're hearing from employees that they're getting distracted by

0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:09.960
<v Speaker 1>their colleagues, by their bosses. So the distractions didn't go away,

0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:12.319
<v Speaker 1>they just changed. They just shifted around. But you know,

0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:15.280
<v Speaker 1>near you did sort of flick at the idea of

0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:18.560
<v Speaker 1>there can be a backlash to two products that are

0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:20.920
<v Speaker 1>too habit forming, whether it be a parent saying as

0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:23.000
<v Speaker 1>you said, the social media is melting my kid brain.

0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:26.959
<v Speaker 1>So how do you sort of assess that risk when

0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:29.959
<v Speaker 1>you're trying to decide in a company to invest. You know,

0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:34.160
<v Speaker 1>is that risk still there for say the big social

0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:37.800
<v Speaker 1>media for the robin Hoods? You know, how how important

0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:40.840
<v Speaker 1>is that risk do you think to these companies going forward?

0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:42.600
<v Speaker 1>It's a great question. I spent a lot of time

0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:45.560
<v Speaker 1>working on ethics. There's actually a chapter in my book

0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:48.280
<v Speaker 1>called the Morality of Manipulation where I talk about all this,

0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:51.679
<v Speaker 1>but I propose what I call the regret tests. And

0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:54.240
<v Speaker 1>the regret test comes out of my search for how

0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:56.280
<v Speaker 1>do you make sure that you're ethical when you use

0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:58.760
<v Speaker 1>these behavioral design techniques? Because as we talked about, they

0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:00.680
<v Speaker 1>can be used for good. You can help people exercise

0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:04.199
<v Speaker 1>more and uh, save money and form all these great habits.

0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:05.640
<v Speaker 1>But how do you make sure you do it ethically?

0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:07.439
<v Speaker 1>So the regret test sets you don't do it with

0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:10.360
<v Speaker 1>draft Kings or or one of the gambling apps. That's

0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:13.640
<v Speaker 1>that's a that's a great example. Robin hood also potentially

0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.480
<v Speaker 1>a great example. So the regret test says that the

0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:19.960
<v Speaker 1>he asks would the user do what we have designed

0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:24.200
<v Speaker 1>for them to do, knowing everything we know summarized as

0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:28.280
<v Speaker 1>would they regret using our product? Because people aren't dumb, right,

0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:31.040
<v Speaker 1>people aren't dumb? That if they regret doing business with you,

0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:33.079
<v Speaker 1>guess what, not only are they not going to do

0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:34.520
<v Speaker 1>business with you, they're going to tell all their friends

0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:36.360
<v Speaker 1>on social media not to do business with you, right,

0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:38.280
<v Speaker 1>And so that's why it's so important when we use

0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:41.520
<v Speaker 1>these behavioral design tactics to do what I insist we do,

0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:43.800
<v Speaker 1>which is usability testing, which we've been doing for decades,

0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:46.199
<v Speaker 1>to bring people in and see if they regret that experience.

0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:48.240
<v Speaker 1>Do we wish we had like an hour here, um

0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:50.600
<v Speaker 1>thirty seconds left tears? There's some thoughts on the metaverse

0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:52.840
<v Speaker 1>from your perspective, like does that become part of our

0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:55.600
<v Speaker 1>habits or something that we're going to enjoy going forward.

0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:58.120
<v Speaker 1>I think it's way too early to tell. We don't

0:13:58.120 --> 0:13:59.520
<v Speaker 1>even know what the metaverse is. We don't have it

0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:01.360
<v Speaker 1>even a deaf finition of whatever. I think it's kind

0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:02.920
<v Speaker 1>of like AI. It's like one of these things that

0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:05.760
<v Speaker 1>captures the imagination we've been thinking about for so long.

0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:08.920
<v Speaker 1>Way too early to to really start putting down roots.

0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:10.560
<v Speaker 1>I think, all right, can I leave it there? Come

0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:13.599
<v Speaker 1>back absolutely within your travels, we would love to have you.

0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:17.120
<v Speaker 1>Have you back neary' all. He's author and investor check

0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:20.520
<v Speaker 1>out his blog Near and Far dot com. Joining us

0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:22.160
<v Speaker 1>here in our interactive Booker Studio