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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio studios, podcasts, radio news. As countries around the

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Speaker 1: world react to President Trump's sweeping tariff's, other global institutions

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Speaker 1: are also grappling with a range of moves from his administration. Yesterday,

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Speaker 1: Princeton University said US government agencies had frozen several dozen

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Speaker 1: research grants as President Trump escalates his fight with elite

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Speaker 1: American colleges. The Trump administration said earlier this week it

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Speaker 1: would scrutinize billions of dollars of federal funding at Harvard University,

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Speaker 1: and the administration march froze four hundred million dollars in

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Speaker 1: funding at Columbia. The focus on grants comes at a

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Speaker 1: time when higher education institutions around the world are struggling

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Speaker 1: to make their funding model work. In the UK, universities

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Speaker 1: are cutting jobs as high fee paying international students decline

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Speaker 1: in numbers with the tightening of immigration rules on dependence

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Speaker 1: and another sign of how higher education funding and policymaking

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Speaker 1: are increasingly linked. Joining us how to discuss all of

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Speaker 1: this is Larry Kramer, President and Vice Chancellor at the

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Speaker 1: London School of Economics and Politicals Science, former Dean of

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Speaker 1: Stanford Laws Goood, as well Luri Kramer, Good morning, Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, It's nice to be here.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about the kind of big picture

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Speaker 1: effects of some of the challenges we're talking about. This

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Speaker 1: is a moment when there's such a big focus on

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Speaker 1: UK US relations How do you deal with this at

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Speaker 1: an institution like the LSE when that relationship is souring.

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Speaker 3: Well, we have, as you can imagine, enormous number of

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Speaker 3: connections with US universities. Many of our faculty get their

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Speaker 3: training there, many of our PhD students get jobs there.

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Speaker 3: There's exchanges and hope varieties, so you know, what's going

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Speaker 3: on in the United States now will obviously have effects

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Speaker 3: on UK universities. Not so much financial effects, although we'll

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Speaker 3: have some of those too, for instance joint projects that

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Speaker 3: involve grants that come from the US, where US partners

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Speaker 3: getting choked off from funding and so on. But the

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Speaker 3: larger issue is really the US has long had the

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Speaker 3: largest dominant university system in the world world, and the

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Speaker 3: effective dismantling of that and the effective effort to really

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Speaker 3: crush some of the best universities in the world will

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Speaker 3: have just you know, collateral effects of all sorts that

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Speaker 3: are hard to specify, but you will be unfolding over

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Speaker 3: the next couple of years.

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Speaker 4: Around kind of free speech and how they might affect

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Speaker 4: the London School of Economics. And this has been a

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Speaker 4: particular focus of the Trump administration again around that freezing

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Speaker 4: of funding for US universities in terms of DEE and

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Speaker 4: I and companies. Some continue down that track, others have

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Speaker 4: pivoted to the US stance. What do you think the

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Speaker 4: LSE view is on free speech?

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Speaker 3: Well, the lsview and free speech has been quite clear.

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Speaker 3: Free speech underpins what we do at the university. It

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Speaker 3: is the heart of what makes universities able to do

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Speaker 3: what they do. So our commitment to that has been

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Speaker 3: clear and explicitly expressed. If speech is lawful, then we

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Speaker 3: don't condemn it. We don't try and forbid it. To

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Speaker 3: the extent that people have disagreements, we expect them to.

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Speaker 3: They can protest, they can come ask hard questions, they

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Speaker 3: can invite counter speakers, but you know, we deal with

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Speaker 3: it that way.

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Speaker 4: The USO is taking a particularly closer interest in individual

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Speaker 4: cases that are going on in the UK, and they

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Speaker 4: have a view on it. So there is pressure coming

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Speaker 4: from the United States for the UK to follow a

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Speaker 4: particular path in this.

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Speaker 3: Area, not at the university level, and I don't think

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Speaker 3: if there were, we would do anything about it. I

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Speaker 3: don't think they can put that kind of pressure on it,

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Speaker 3: so I don't think they should, and if they tried,

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Speaker 3: we would simply resist it. The US has no business

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Speaker 3: dictating policy for UK universities none whatsoever.

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Speaker 1: You do attract a significant number of students, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: from the United States as well. I wonder how you

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Speaker 1: see that those numbers evolving as time goes on. First

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Speaker 1: of all, you have the currency effects. You've got much

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Speaker 1: stronger and much weaker dollar now, which means, you know,

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Speaker 1: in numbers terms, it gets more expensive for American students

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Speaker 1: to come here. But given the political backdrop today, are

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Speaker 1: you expecting those numbers too full now?

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Speaker 3: If anything, the opposite, and it would be short term

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Speaker 3: one hopes. To be honest, this is not the way

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Speaker 3: I would like to increase the flow of students to US.

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Speaker 3: But the US becomes an increasingly unattractive place for anybody

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Speaker 3: to go to be either a student or a faculty member.

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Speaker 3: And as that happens, faculty who might have thought of

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Speaker 3: leaving the UK to go to US universities will be less.

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Speaker 2: Likely to do so.

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Speaker 3: Faculty in the US are much more likely to be

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Speaker 3: coming here, And we're already receiving tons of calls, and

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Speaker 3: you've seen US professors leaving. Students in other parts of

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Speaker 3: the world who might have been thinking about going to

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Speaker 3: US universities are more likely to come to UK universities

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Speaker 3: and so on and so on.

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Speaker 4: Is there all of that going to pressure the research

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Speaker 4: funding that is available in the UK. Let's say, if

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Speaker 4: there's an influx of US academics is out going to

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Speaker 4: put a lot of pressure then in terms of the.

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Speaker 3: Funding, well, we have to be responsible in how we

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Speaker 3: deal with that influx. So it's not like we can

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Speaker 3: go on a shopping spree beyond our means or resources.

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Speaker 3: But to the extent, it's really what we're talking about

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Speaker 3: is opportunities that might not have been available that we

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Speaker 3: will try and capture within our existing resources.

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Speaker 1: What sort of growth in terms of student numbers would

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Speaker 1: you expect then coming from the US.

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Speaker 3: I have no idea how. I don't think anybody can

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Speaker 3: tell you exactly what that's going to look like. Again,

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Speaker 3: we're not talking about we don't have plans to increase

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Speaker 3: the size of our student body. We don't have plans

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Speaker 3: to increase the size of our faculties, although if the

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Speaker 3: UK government were smart, they would see this as an

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Speaker 3: opportunity to take advantage of it, much in the way

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Speaker 3: the US did in World War Two when there was

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Speaker 3: a flow of amazing scholars out of Germany.

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Speaker 2: What steps are needed to encourage that.

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Speaker 3: It's back to the same funding questions that we've been

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Speaker 3: dealing with much more broadly. So the question is how

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Speaker 3: the UK universities are funded will determine what kind of

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Speaker 3: resources that they have available to do whatever it is

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Speaker 3: that the UK government wants to help support them doing. So.

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Speaker 4: Did you just compare the current situation in the US

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Speaker 4: to what was happening in Germany and you know, in

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Speaker 4: the nineteen thirties, Just to be clear, but it's.

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Speaker 3: That kind of move where no, what I'm saying is

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Speaker 3: in the nineteen thirties the German government clamped down on

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Speaker 3: all sorts of things, there was an outflow of scholars

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Speaker 3: to the US. It was absolutely something that played an

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Speaker 3: important role in helping build the US educational sector. So

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Speaker 3: if there is, or to the extent there is an

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Speaker 3: outflow of scholars from the US to other places. It's

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Speaker 3: an opportunity to do something similar that doesn't turn on

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Speaker 3: a comparison to what the Trump administration is doing to

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Speaker 3: what the Nazi administration was doing in Germany.

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Speaker 4: There's just that you said clamp down. You mentioned that

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Speaker 4: there was a clamp down at that time in the thirties,

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Speaker 4: and so there is a clamp down on academics.

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Speaker 3: Look, I don't again, I don't want to play a

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Speaker 3: little game, and so I can get called out like,

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Speaker 3: oh my god, he's saying the Trump administration is like Hitler.

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Speaker 3: I'm not saying that. What I am saying is there

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Speaker 3: are a similar outflow of scholars in the two countries. When

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Speaker 3: it happened, it was one of the things that helped

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Speaker 3: the US university system become what it is, and if

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Speaker 3: it happens in the US for whatever reason, it is

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Speaker 3: something that one can take advantage of.

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Speaker 1: Coming back to the funding challenges, is this a case

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Speaker 1: of you just need cops on fees to be increased

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Speaker 1: so that you can charge more for students, or do

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Speaker 1: you need more direct funding from the government.

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Speaker 3: I think there are a variety of potential solutions that

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Speaker 3: could be explored to strengthen UK universities. Raising fee caps

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Speaker 3: is only one. Changing the cost recovery rate on grants

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Speaker 3: is another. Reducing the bureaucratic demands that the government places

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Speaker 3: which impose costs on universities is yet a third. Facilitating

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Speaker 3: more philanthropy by making the tax system easier for people

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Speaker 3: to understand what the benefits are is a fourth. There's

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Speaker 3: a whole array of things that are available in order

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Speaker 3: to increase the resources for universities, and I don't necessarily

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Speaker 3: have a strong view on which one we should adopt,

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Speaker 3: but it makes sense to explore ways in which to

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Speaker 3: enhance the.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the fees in the UK are are significantly

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Speaker 1: lower than, for example, in the United States. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you'd arguing students get the same quality of education in both,

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Speaker 1: but how what is a fair level to charge students

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Speaker 1: for undergraduate courses?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know that I have a number

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Speaker 3: off the top of my head. I would say, let's

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Speaker 3: look at the numbers and look at what the actual

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Speaker 3: costs are and at least make that available. I mean,

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Speaker 3: what you can say is that basically the fees haven't

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Speaker 3: been raised except for a tiny little amount for more

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Speaker 3: than a decade. Now what other industry is held under

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Speaker 3: those kinds ofquenstraints. I want you know, if you're a

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Speaker 3: member of Parliament and we said you're going to get

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Speaker 3: the same salary for the next ten years, but you

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Speaker 3: have to live within your means, nobody would expect that, right.

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Speaker 3: So you know, you want to at least enable the

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Speaker 3: universities to be able to provide the education and cover

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Speaker 3: their costs.

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Speaker 2: To do so.

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Speaker 3: But again, it doesn't have to be through raising fees.

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Speaker 3: There are a variety of other ways in which to

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Speaker 3: do that. Even in the US, the fees do not

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Speaker 3: cover close to the full costs of the education that

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Speaker 3: people provide. Tuition typically covers about a third of the costs.

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Speaker 3: So it's not that the tuition has to cover one

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Speaker 3: hundred percent, it's that across the various devices that are

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Speaker 3: available for universities to have the resources they need, something

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Speaker 3: needs to be done to make more of them.

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Speaker 4: One of the major elements though, for UK universities you know,

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Speaker 4: who are in the midst of a kind of slow

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Speaker 4: burn but becoming acute funding crisis is oversee student fees,

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Speaker 4: which are far higher than for domestic students. I mean,

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Speaker 4: what replaces that missing money. As we see those numbers

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Speaker 4: of foreign students coming down, what does the LS do

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Speaker 4: which has a large contingent of foreign students, and especially

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Speaker 4: for the kind of prestige master's degrees that you offer.

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Speaker 4: I mean, that's really acute for you, surely.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 3: First, the LC's commitment to having a student body that

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Speaker 3: consists of students.

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Speaker 2: From all over the world long long predates this, right.

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Speaker 3: It has been built into the school's model since the

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Speaker 3: nineteen teens, very early in the year. As a result,

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Speaker 3: we haven't actually seen the same kind of downturn that

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Speaker 3: many universities are because our reputation outside the UK is

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Speaker 3: so long and so well established. From the universities that

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Speaker 3: have experienced to drop off, it was very much a

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Speaker 3: product of government policies that are now beginning to change,

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Speaker 3: along with messaging which has changed. So the current government

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Speaker 3: has made very clear that they do want to invite

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Speaker 3: international students in because they see it as an opportunity

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Speaker 3: for growth and it's effectively an export industry for the

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Speaker 3: UK that brings benefits to the country. What's happening in

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Speaker 3: the US may actually help turn that around, because a

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Speaker 3: lot of students in other countries when they have a

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Speaker 3: choice of where to study outside their home country, have

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Speaker 3: been going to the US as that becomes less attractive

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Speaker 3: that as I say, I think that's quite likely to

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Speaker 3: be something that will help all UK universities attract more students.

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Speaker 1: What's it a capacity do you have to be able

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Speaker 1: to accept in up term and applications.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's not really a question of capacity. I mean

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Speaker 3: it's a question of what kind of student body do

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Speaker 3: you want and how large do you want it to be.

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Speaker 3: As I say, we don't have current plans to increase

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Speaker 3: the size of our student body because as you grow

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Speaker 3: larger and larger, the culture changes in terms of the

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Speaker 3: experience that students and faculty have.

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Speaker 4: I want to do that the classic news question which

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Speaker 4: is to try to pin you down on the issue

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Speaker 4: of funding. I mean, ultimately, should students be paying more

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Speaker 4: or should the funding so be from somewhere else? And

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Speaker 4: basically because this is the ultimate question for the government,

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Speaker 4: and for example, we've had recently the Blueprint for Change

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Speaker 4: from University's UK. I mean, there's a whole lot of

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Speaker 4: thinking that is going on now about how to get

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Speaker 4: more money into universities because they desperately need it. Are

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Speaker 4: you saying that it should not be from students, that

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Speaker 4: it should be from elsewhere.

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Speaker 2: It's not.

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Speaker 3: By the way that I don't want to let you

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Speaker 3: pin me down, is that I don't actually think there's

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Speaker 3: a simple or clear answer to that. I think the

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Speaker 3: goal is to make sure that universities have the resources

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Speaker 3: they need. Each of the devices has costs, some benefits.

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Speaker 3: We think, God, you've.

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Speaker 4: Got to have fees going up. I mean, the fees

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Speaker 4: have just gone up this academic year by two hundred

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Speaker 4: and eighty five pousand. That's the first time in seven years.

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Speaker 4: It's got to go up or be linked to the

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Speaker 4: cost of inflation surely.

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Speaker 3: Or some of the other devices that are Again, if

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Speaker 3: I think about the US model, tuition is very high,

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Speaker 3: of course, but they're providing all sorts of things that

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Speaker 3: are not part of normal education.

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Speaker 2: It's certainly normal education in the UK.

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Speaker 3: So as I said, the tuition only covers about a

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Speaker 3: third of the costs in most and there are these

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Speaker 3: other sources. So in the UK all of them have

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Speaker 3: been less than they should be. So all of them

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Speaker 3: are opportunities to explore. And the question is what is

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Speaker 3: the best way, what's the best mix of ways or

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Speaker 3: single way in order to provide the resources that are necessary.

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Speaker 1: We're hearing you talk about the opportunity that the changes

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Speaker 1: in the United States present for UK universities. I'm wondering

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Speaker 1: what areas of study might particularly benefit. Where are you

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Speaker 1: hearing the interest from most in terms of scholars that

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Speaker 1: are interested in coming and working for you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, what's interesting is there's a mismatch between where the

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Speaker 3: US is imposing the funding cuts and what it purports

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Speaker 3: to claim its concerns are. So the funding cuts are

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Speaker 3: being heavily targeted at fields like public health, at the

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Speaker 3: medical sciences I'm sorry, at medical sciences and heard sciences

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Speaker 3: because that's where the largest grants are.

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Speaker 2: So there's a lot of people.

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Speaker 3: In those areas who looking at the funding drawing up

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Speaker 3: our beginning to explore other places. On the other side,

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Speaker 3: in the humanities and the you know, social sciences and

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Speaker 3: the arts, that's where the hostility is being targeted, and

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Speaker 3: so there's a lot of people there too, So I

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Speaker 3: think there really will be potential interest across the whole board.

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Speaker 3: But you know, then it's individual faculty and there's a

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Speaker 3: whole lot of considerations that are going it's still a

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Speaker 3: big deal to leave your country, it's still a big

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Speaker 3: deal to leave your university, and so on. So you know,

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Speaker 3: as I said, I think I'm hearing it across many fields.

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Speaker 2: We did early on.

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Speaker 3: Begin to hear it in say, public health, because they

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Speaker 3: were hit very hard, very early. Most of the scholarship

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Speaker 3: and even salaries in that field is soft funding, meaning

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Speaker 3: it's grant funding, not hard funding that's wired into the university.

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Speaker 3: And so in those fields, people who've never had to

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Speaker 3: worry about, for instance, their salary suddenly do.

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Speaker 2: And so they're beginning to explore.

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Speaker 3: Same thing with international development obviously, where there were massive

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Speaker 3: cuts very quickly, but as the cuts broaden and deepen,

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Speaker 3: just yet across the university