1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: If you will place your left hand on the Bible 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: and raise your right hand, and please repeat after me 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: and I do solemnly swear vent titled action. Find the 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: defendant guilty of the prime. It makes no sense, it 5 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, it must a quit. 6 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: We all took the same of of office. We're all 7 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: bound by that common commitment to support and defend the Constitution, 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: to bear true faith in allegiance to the same that 9 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: you faithfully discharge the duties of our office. Do you 10 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to 11 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 12 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: but the truth. From Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio, 13 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: this is Sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. Hi everyone, 14 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: Christina here, Welcome to the last bonus episode for this 15 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: season of Sworn. For the first part of the episode, 16 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: we're going to take you on an audio tour of 17 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: Phil's office, a cozy house shaped office in Marietta, Georgia, 18 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: before sitting down for a round table discussion with some 19 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: of the key staff of the Holloway Law Group. I 20 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: hope you enjoy, Ohsuy, I'll get to see you I 21 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: was just showing in your kids mostly tween my personal 22 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: office face. I don't think it really has much of 23 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,479 Speaker 1: a rhyme nor reason to what's what's in here other than, 24 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: you know, basically the stuff that I need on a 25 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: day to day basis to to do my work. It's 26 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: important to give credit where it's due. My wife, Natalie, 27 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: who the listeners met in one of our earlier episodes, 28 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: she's basically my decorator in chief. She's actually in interior 29 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: design school now working on her master's in interior designs. 30 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: So she sort of helped me get this thing put together. 31 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: And it's nothing special for sure, but what she want 32 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: to do is have people, when they come in to 33 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: meet me, maybe for the first time, be able to 34 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: know a little bit about me and maybe my past. 35 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: So you see some family pictures here, things that you know, 36 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: say you know, I am a real human person with 37 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: a life outside of court and outside of podcasting and 38 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 1: other media. I've got my documents which proved that I'm 39 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: not lying when I said that I was in the military. 40 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: I've got admissions to the various courts, you know, in 41 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: this case, you've got the trial courts and the appellate 42 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: courts in Georgia. Of course, there's one on the wall 43 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: here somewhere that shows that I am in fact admitted 44 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 1: to the federal courts and in fact the U. S. 45 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: Supreme Court. We've got um my law school diploma which 46 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: proves that I'm actually a law school graduate until they 47 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: decided to rescind it. And I've got this globe on 48 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: my desk that gets a lot of comments that my 49 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: wife got from me on our first anniversary trip. We 50 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: were in Puerto Rico and she got really lucky playing roulette. 51 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: She took whatever she won from that one role of 52 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: the Roulette wheel and bought me that little globe there. 53 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: And the only reason it's really there that the true 54 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: reason is because it has to cover up a hole 55 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: for for power chords. So I really can't move that. 56 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: This is a small ship, and I may be the 57 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: captain of it, but I can't run it by myself. 58 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: I need another set of eyes, or in this case, 59 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: several sets of other eyes to make sure I don't 60 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: miss anything, because I know that from time to time 61 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: things can can get past me. So I need uh 62 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: some really talented people around me to help make sure 63 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: that we get it right. We're gonna go meet Stephanie, 64 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: she's our paralegal extraordinaire, and we'll meet Addison, who's another attorney. 65 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: That sounds great. This is our great paralegal, Stephanie. She 66 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: really is the person that keeps this train on the tracks. 67 00:03:58,040 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: She actually was a student of mine when I talked 68 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: criminal justice at university here. She probably made very good 69 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: grades in my class. Although I don't specifically remember what 70 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: her grade was. I remember her as a as a 71 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: very good student. I think I gotta be. I was 72 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: working and going to school and it's very young so 73 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: making it through getting that degree. But I enjoyed his class. 74 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: He was a good teacher. After I took his class, 75 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: started working in the warrant Division midnight shift on the weekends. 76 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: While I was in school, I was pretty trime relice 77 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: officer for I worked at the jail and then making 78 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: decisions on if people should get out or not, and 79 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 1: then I supervised people that were out on bond, making 80 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: sure they were doing everything the judge ordered them to do. 81 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: I went from working the midnight shift to working at 82 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: the courthouse during the day, so now completely switch roles, 83 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 1: switched teams, working on this side. It's just it's it's 84 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,239 Speaker 1: totally different. It's interesting to see it from both sides. 85 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 1: You know, if she had a Walleye since I'd be 86 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 1: happy to send her to court. Well almost anything that 87 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: we do. That's how much she knows about stuff. We 88 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: keep Addison down here in the basement where we can't 89 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: hurt anybody. Oh my goodness, is that that's a moose 90 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: as a moosehead that belongs to another the attorney who 91 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 1: owns this building. It's one of his trophies. You know. 92 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: It's as big as I am. This is my cave. 93 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: All I need is a computer or phone, and and 94 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:40,119 Speaker 1: I am content. I was with Fulton County District Attorney's Office, 95 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 1: so I handled a lot of a lot of different 96 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 1: kinds of things. Was there a couple of years, and 97 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: it kind of reached my uh my wall, so to speak. 98 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 1: With the prosecution side. One of the biggest problems I 99 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: had was that you really don't have a lot of 100 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: say about what you think it might be the right 101 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: outcome for a k case. My interpretation of how I 102 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 1: think it should go is not in line with some 103 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: other people's interpretation of how it should go. So here 104 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: it's just a lot more freedom in a way, the 105 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: freedom to to say, here's how we're going to proceed 106 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: with this case because this is how we we think 107 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: it's the right way to go, or whether to take 108 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: the case at all. Just sometimes he just listening off 109 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: the leashes go And then that's what I like. If 110 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: I'm somewhere, Phil will step in and take care of 111 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: something that I worked down likewise too, so it's a 112 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:39,239 Speaker 1: good give and take. Phil is in the driver's seat 113 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 1: almost every time regarding the case. But every case that 114 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: we have he has eyes on it, and I had 115 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: eyes on it. You're getting a lot of people looking 116 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 1: at issues and looking at different facts and seeing what 117 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 1: can be spotted. You know, when I say it's a 118 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 1: team effort, I mean I mean that it is. I 119 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 1: can't possibly do it by myself. It's just no way. 120 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: They're professionals, and I've got a trust them that they're 121 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: gonna comport themselves and conduct themselves as professionals. And they do. 122 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: And you know, like I said, we all have to 123 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: work together. We know that this is a team effort, 124 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: and without working together, we wouldn't be able to get 125 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: a whole hell of a lot done at least not 126 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: done well. So welcome guys to a special addition especial 127 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: episode of Sworn. I've always kind of wanted to do 128 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: a show like this. I'm joined here at the office 129 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: by Ms Stephanie are Paralegal extraordinaire, Mr Addison, who is 130 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: a great attorney that works here with me, Christina Dana, 131 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: our lead producer for Sworn, and Mr Mike, the man 132 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: behind the mike who makes all the sound stuff work. 133 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: How's it going, Mike? How's all right? So anyway, I 134 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: think what we'd like to do is just go ahead 135 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: and start off talking about maybe some things that we 136 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: have learned in our careers that maybe the public doesn't 137 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: understand about the practice of law or the criminal justice system. 138 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: Christina is just gonna go and start us off with 139 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: some topics and then we'll just kind of jump off 140 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: from there and see where it goes. Yeah. So, I 141 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: guess my sort of broadest question topic is what kinds 142 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: of questions do you guys get the most, like at 143 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: parties or sort of when you're just interacting in your normal, 144 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: non lawyer daily life. What are the questions people try 145 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: to like hit you with. So I want to see 146 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: how Stephanie answers that, because she's a very experienced paralegal, 147 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: it's been around the criminal justice system a long time. 148 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: But she's not a lawyer, so I know what my 149 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: answer would be, but I want to hear what hers is. 150 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 1: People that know what I do usually ask me questions 151 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: about things that are going on in the news. If 152 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: we're dealing with cases like that. They also, of course 153 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: asked me about Phil they'll fill on TV the other day. 154 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: But a lot of people want to know if we're 155 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: involved with things that have been on the news recently. 156 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: Are you often involved in things related to the news. Yes, 157 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: we seem to attract cases that are in the media, 158 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: whether it's on TV, on social media, uh that's put 159 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: out by the local police departments, about new cases that 160 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: have happened, to arrests that have been made. We seem 161 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: to attract cases like that, So yes, a lot of 162 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: times we are what about you, Addison, what kind of 163 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: questions do you get? Pretty much the same about if 164 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: something hits the media, they'll they'll ask me a question 165 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: about what I think about it, even if really no 166 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: information is out about the case yet, And then inevitably 167 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: you'll get the well. My cousin's third wife got arrested 168 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: last week for this, I'd like your your expert opinion 169 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: about what we can do to help her out. Pretty much, 170 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: questions like that if something is familiar to them, whether 171 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: it's a family member who's in legal trouble or something 172 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: that's on the news, they like to get my input 173 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: about what I think about it, sort of like the 174 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: doctor take a look at my rash situation exactly exactly well, 175 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:58,719 Speaker 1: And I get that too. And of course a lot 176 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 1: of times people are asking general questions about the law, 177 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: and I'll answer their questions as best I can. And 178 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 1: sometimes when it gets more personal, like you know, they 179 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: want specific legal advice, I'm thinking, Okay, this person maybe 180 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: there a physician, or maybe their car sales, and maybe 181 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: there's some way that they can repay me in kind 182 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: down the road when I need favors. I do my 183 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,079 Speaker 1: best to try to to answer that. And I think 184 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: people are genuinely interested in the system and in law, 185 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: and and I think that the more accurately people are 186 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: educated than the better off everybody is. So I do 187 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 1: I do my best to to at least help people 188 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: understand the real justice system. The way that it really 189 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: is the way that I see it and these folks 190 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 1: see it on a day to day basis, which, as 191 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: we've learned throughout our podcasting experience here, is oftentimes not 192 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: the way people think it is based on what they 193 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: see on TV or at the movies. It's very, very different. 194 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 1: They'll ask me, they'll say, how do you represent these criminals? 195 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: And that's a very complex question because a they're not 196 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: all criminals, and even the ones that are, there's a 197 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 1: lot that needs to be done to make sure that 198 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: they get treated fairly. And so a lot of times 199 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: I'll ask the question back, well, you know what makes 200 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: you think they're criminals? And they'll I just assume because 201 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: I got arrested. Well have you ever heard that people 202 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: are presumed to be innocent? And they're like, oh, yeah, 203 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: I forgot about that. So I'll explain to them that 204 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: a large part of what we do is we help 205 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 1: people get treated fairly and we try to promote fair sentencing, 206 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: and that's a big piece of what we do is 207 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 1: fair sentencing negotiations. What is a fair sentence is oftentimes 208 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,239 Speaker 1: in the eye of the beholder. But if you ask somebody, 209 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: are you against fair sentencing and nobody's gonna say yes 210 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: to that. Everybody is for and then there in favor 211 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: you know, of of fair sentencing, and they're forced to 212 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: think of it in that way, and then they get 213 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 1: a better and I think, more accurate picture of what 214 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: this is all about. What do you guys think is 215 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: one of the bigger misconceptions that people have about the 216 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: justice system. I think people jump to conclusions about cases 217 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:11,959 Speaker 1: without actually doing any so called detective work to figure 218 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: out what's really going on in a case. They may 219 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: pass judgment very quickly. They only see the side of 220 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,839 Speaker 1: the story that's been put out there. You know, it's 221 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: very rare to have a person that's actually been charged 222 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: with a major crime that's on the news to be 223 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: out there saying, hey, at it and do it. Usually 224 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: they're very quiet because their attorney has told them not to, 225 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: so you're only hearing one side of it, and people 226 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: just form an opinion, and you know, they want these 227 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: people to spend the rest of their lives in jail 228 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 1: or a very long time, and it's just not always 229 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: the right thing that should be done. A lot of people, 230 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: I want to say to them, not all people that 231 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: get arrested are bad people. Things could happen to any 232 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 1: of us. There are some cases that we have that 233 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: I sit there and think, sometimes this could have just 234 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: as easily have happened to me. And I know that 235 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: I am not a bad person, and I would not 236 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:14,959 Speaker 1: want to go to jail for a very long time. 237 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: Nobody wants to go to jail. So people need a 238 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: good attorney to have their back and to give them 239 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: good representation. Right, piggyback and off what what Stephanie said. 240 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: I think that when I was a prosecutor, you read 241 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: words on papers, right, you have statutes that you're putting 242 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: down on an indictment. You're looking at maybe pictures or 243 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: police reports, and on this side of the fence, you're 244 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: you're actually talking to people who are charged, and that 245 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: means you're oftentimes talking with their families and and the 246 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: problems that a case is having is posing to them. 247 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: They have children, if if they're worried about immigrations, I mean, 248 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: whatever the case may be, there are dozens of things 249 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,040 Speaker 1: that can impact them. And I never really consider of 250 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: that when I was prosecutor. I tried to, but I mean, 251 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: sometimes you just don't have the opportunity to, like Stephanie said, 252 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: there are good people who can do some bad things, 253 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 1: and there are good people who can make mistakes. And 254 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: every one of us has done that. And if someone 255 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: says they haven't, their lying could have the most self 256 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: righteous prosecutor defense attorney and they say otherwise, they're not 257 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: telling you the truth. And then the biggest rushes when 258 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: you know you're looking over a case file and you're like, wait, 259 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: this person didn't do it. This person is innocent of 260 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: what they're they're being charged with. That's a tremendous feeling. Addison, 261 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: when you were a prosecutor, did you ever conceive that 262 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: innocent people might be arrested? Absolutely? When I was a prosecutor, 263 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: I was a prosecutor in Illinois and Georgia. I'll talk 264 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: about the experience in Illinois is I would have a 265 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: lot of freedom to do what I wanted, and I 266 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: would actually toss cases if they filed the motion to suppressed. 267 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: Dismissed them on my own motion because I knew that 268 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: the Fourth Amendment was violated in a particular case. The 269 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: Fourth Amendment deals with a search and seizure. For example, 270 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: say it search is bad in a case and they 271 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: file a motion to get rid of the evidence. I 272 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: would dismiss cases if I didn't think it was a 273 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: constitutional stop or if something else was really really wrong 274 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: with that case, because the whole point is getting the 275 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: right result and not counting convictions. That's how I was trained. 276 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: You just have to have someone who wants to see 277 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: the right thing happened, and that interpretations can differ. But 278 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: that I think that's a big problem. Big thing that 279 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: a lot of people don't think about is that you 280 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: have some very very good prosecutors, very good on a prosecutors, 281 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: and then you have some and this goes both ways, 282 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: by the way, you know, defense side too, but then 283 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: you have people who are just notch convictions and sometimes 284 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: oftentimes the conviction is not the right result in some 285 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: of these cases. So that's the hurdle that we face 286 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: a lot. We talked about that on this season about 287 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: sort of what winning means. Having the sort of numerical 288 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: tally of one cases and lost cases isn't necess certainly 289 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: indicative of what justice is, but it's more complicated than that. Absolutely. 290 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: I mean that that's the whole that's the whole point. 291 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: I mean, that's why you know sitting in constitutional law 292 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: in law school was so great because you've got to 293 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: see why we have the system in place and doing 294 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: everything you can to make sure someone is sitting in 295 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: a cage. I guess it's fine if you have the 296 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: evidence and it's it's constitutionally back. But if you don't 297 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: and you know you don't, that's a different story altogether. 298 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: And get all the front page headlines of this huge 299 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: conviction you get, but it doesn't mean anything if someone 300 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: else is still out there who did do it and 301 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: the person who didn't is sitting in a cage somewhere. 302 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: I'm not confining it to people who are innocent in 303 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: the crimes. I'm also including people who are asking for 304 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: punishments that don't fit the crime itself, and that's to 305 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: appear tough on crime. Maybe it's a media case and 306 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: a lot of times maybe they're getting pressure from their 307 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: higher ups to to do this. I mean that that's 308 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: often the case. Everyone should do the saying for the 309 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: right reasons, and that includes defense attorney, includes all attorneys. 310 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: One of the jobs I had with the local government 311 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: is I was supervising people there were out on bond 312 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: and we have to keep in mind. When I was 313 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: doing that job, the people that I was supervising had 314 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: not been convicted of anything, but yet they were having 315 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: to answer to me on a weekly basis. On a 316 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: daily basis, I got to know so many of them, 317 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: and I dealt with people that were charged from d wise, shoplifting, 318 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: child molestation, rape, arm robbery, all these different people, they're 319 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: still people. I remember one case supervising that was an 320 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: armed robbery case and a person and no prior record 321 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: made one mistake and he went to prison for ten 322 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: years to the door, and I remember, I just don't 323 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: feel like this is the right thing. He made one mistake, 324 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: he took responsibility for it, and because of what he 325 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 1: was charged with, he was going to go to prison 326 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 1: for a very long time and miss out on his family, 327 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,199 Speaker 1: his children getting older. And at the same time, I 328 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 1: thought about how his victim felt. But you have to 329 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: look at both sides of it. I think some of 330 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: the things that have been spoken about are like mandatory minimums. 331 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: This was a young man that made one mistake against 332 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: someone that maybe made a continuous decision and committed a 333 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 1: crime that was maybe not violent. Um ends up getting probation. 334 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: But they've made that decision to commit that crime ten times, 335 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: twenty times, and they have a prior record. But because 336 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: their charge wasn't an arm robbery was something different, they 337 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: didn't have to go to prison, and they got to 338 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: see their family, you know, their kids get older, and 339 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: it just felt wrong to me. You have to make 340 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 1: sure you have to hold people accountable because if someone 341 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 1: isn't giving a person that's committing a crime their rights, 342 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: what makes you think that that officer prosecutor isn't going 343 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,120 Speaker 1: to give you your rights. Because everybody has the same 344 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 1: rights and we have to we have to protect those rights, 345 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 1: and everybody deserves that. They deserve to have good representation, 346 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: and they deserve to be protected. That's such a good 347 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 1: point of like when we see things in the media 348 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: and we're like, oh, that was a bad person. They 349 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: deserved this, but something went unconstitutionally wrong. That could happen 350 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: to you too. If the system is broken, you're also 351 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: in that system. If you are driving down the road, 352 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: you could get pulled over and your car could be 353 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: illegally searched. What if something was in there that you 354 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: didn't know was in there? What if And I think 355 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: people a lot of times, well that would never happen 356 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: to me. You can never say what would ever happen 357 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: to you because there are so many variables. You could 358 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: be in the same situation. You could match a description 359 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: of someone that did something, or not even match it 360 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: and just there be a mistake in communication and you 361 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: get pulled over. There's so many things that can happen. 362 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: That's why it's so important. You know, when we get 363 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: these calls from people, they're calling you in a moment 364 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: of their life is probably wrought bottom for them and 365 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,679 Speaker 1: they need help, and you have to think, what if 366 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: I was in that situation, I would want someone to 367 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: help me. It's like some of the law enforcement officers 368 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 1: that you know I've represented over the years. A lot 369 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: of these folks will sit in my office just be 370 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,400 Speaker 1: just in tears because they're thinking, well, wait a minute, 371 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: I've been a you know, a cop all these years 372 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: and I didn't realize that innocent people can get arrested. 373 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: And then here they sit, They've been accused of something 374 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: and they're absolutely innocent, and they're just they're shocked, they 375 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: can't believe it. I'm like, well, you know, welcome to 376 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: my world. This happens, and unfortunately is happening to you. 377 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: So we're just gonna have to deal with it. Addison 378 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: had do you ever known anybody before you came to 379 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: work here who was innocent and accused of a serious 380 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 1: crime or no, not of anybody. Yeah, I've known. I've 381 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: known some people who were innocent and some crimes. It 382 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: goes back to my point. I mean a judge once 383 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: told me that that the most powerful person in the 384 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 1: courthouse is the district attorney. They had the charging decisions, 385 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: and they can decide how a case is going to proceed. 386 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 1: Not only can can someone be be innocent, but take 387 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,679 Speaker 1: Stephanie's example about the arm robbery in Georgia, there's a 388 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: mandatory minimum ten years. Well, you know, all cases are different. 389 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 1: What if you have a fifty five year old man 390 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: who holds a like replica and gets ten dollars from 391 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: a gas station with no injuries. And someone else who 392 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: probably doesn't have a clean history, maybe he's been arrested five, six, 393 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: seven times and does rob a gas station for say, 394 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: threatens to shoot the person in the head. Each one 395 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,479 Speaker 1: of those cases, the man is facing ten years in prison. Maybe, 396 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 1: just maybe they should be treated differently, and you need 397 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: a prosecutor who is able to see the bigger picture 398 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: what is best for everyone involved, including the person who's 399 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: being charged with the crime. Does putting someone with no 400 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: criminal history in prison for ten years where he's exposed 401 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: to real hardened criminals on a daily basis is that good? 402 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: Is that the right call? Probably not? And I think 403 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: a lot of people you can lose focus of of 404 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 1: how each case is different and and and they're not 405 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: just words on an indictment. You need to have discretion, 406 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 1: and you need to have the freedom to do what's right, 407 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,919 Speaker 1: and what's right doesn't always mean to have someone convict 408 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: did on the entire sheet. We've been a lot of 409 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: time in the podcast world talking about things that that 410 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: I'm aware of in the criminal justice system that the 411 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 1: public may not necessarily be aware of, and we've tried 412 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: to bring a lot of that to the front. That's 413 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 1: my platform. You guys work here in this office, so 414 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: you don't necessarily have that platform. So I want to 415 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 1: share it with you just for a minute. If you 416 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: have any things that you know about that you're aware 417 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: of things that exist in the real world of the 418 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: criminal justice system that you think the public may not 419 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,679 Speaker 1: be aware of. And ask you to just maybe mentioned 420 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: one or two of those things, if you can think 421 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: of anything right now that people just wouldn't otherwise be 422 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 1: aware of. I think that people sometimes underestimate the power 423 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 1: that media can have on a prosecutor's decision. If you 424 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: see a story on the news consistently all the time, 425 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: total exposure, how that can lead and alter someone's decisions 426 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 1: regarding whether the charge person, how they're charged. I've seen 427 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: prosecutor's offices try to criminalize accidents and make it a crime, 428 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: transform it into a crime because of reasons that have 429 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,640 Speaker 1: nothing to do with what's in the statutes. That happens 430 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: a whole lot. Well, actually, let me let me be 431 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: more specific. In Georgia, there's a sentencing scheme where you 432 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: can go to prison and then be placed on probation 433 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 1: for many, many many years afterward after prison. So say 434 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 1: someone gets sentenced for twenty years and they have to 435 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 1: serve the first five years in prison. Now they have 436 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,880 Speaker 1: to report to a probation officer for fifteen years. That's 437 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: not a mine field away to trip someone up and 438 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 1: get them back into a jail cell. I don't know 439 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: what is, and I believe Georgia leads the country in 440 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: people number of people under sentence, and that is not 441 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 1: taking into account per capita in other jurisdictions. I've been 442 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: it's a prison case. There, it's a probation case, and 443 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: if it's a prison case, parole will supervise that person 444 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: after their release from prison. How the FEDS do it 445 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: a lot at the federal government, and so I think 446 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: one of the problems with the criminal justice system is 447 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: the amount of time that someone is expected to report 448 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: and be under lock and key. I'll tell you one thing, 449 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: when I was twenty three, I don't think I would 450 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: have been able to do that consistently, and most people 451 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to do that consistently, and that's a problem. 452 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 1: I think it's my personal opinion. If it's a prison case, 453 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 1: it's a prison case, and when they get out of prison, 454 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: they spend a couple of years on parole and you're done. 455 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 1: I don't think that helps anyone. I don't think it 456 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: helps the court system. I don't think it helps to 457 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 1: defend it, and I know it doesn't help the victims 458 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: in the case. So that would be probably my fix 459 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:44,360 Speaker 1: to eradicate some of the nonsense that I see going on, Stephanie, 460 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:45,919 Speaker 1: what are you What are you aware of that the 461 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 1: public might not be aware of. I think a lot 462 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: of people have heard heard the term debtors prison. I 463 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: want everyone to realize jails in our area house people 464 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: that should not be in jail simply because they cannot 465 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: afford to post a bond. There are people that are 466 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: out on bond because their family is well off, they 467 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: have a lot of money, that are walking around not 468 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 1: being supervised. We're in jail for a very short amount 469 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: of time, and there are people that are being housed. 470 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: You know, I don't know the exact numbers of how 471 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 1: much it costs to house one person in a local 472 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: jail for one day. I've heard it's anywhere between thirty 473 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: to fifty dollars a day per person. They're being housed 474 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 1: there because they cannot post a five hundred dollar bond, 475 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 1: and they will remain in jail until their case is completed. 476 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: A person that cannot post a five hundred dollar bond 477 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 1: or one thousand dollar bond most likely is not going 478 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: to be able to afford their own lawyer. Then that 479 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,400 Speaker 1: person that can't afford to get out has to get 480 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: a lawyer that's paid for by the state, which means 481 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: you and me and everybody you know that pays taxes. 482 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: That person will sit in jail for weeks, months a 483 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 1: year waiting for trial because they can't afford five a 484 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: thousand dollars because they don't have a family or friends 485 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: that can post that, and it's awful. It's a dangerous 486 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: situation for the inmates. There isn't enough money to pay 487 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 1: for law enforcement to be able to properly supervise that 488 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: many people that are in jail. It's a dangerous situation 489 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: for deputies or police officers that are supervising them all 490 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: because we're holding people in jail because they don't have 491 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,880 Speaker 1: a low amount of money and it ends up costing 492 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: everyone so much more money than that bail would have 493 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 1: ever been and it's incredibly inefficient. It almost forces people 494 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: that have been in jail for an extended period of 495 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 1: time to enter please against things that they are may 496 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 1: not be guilty of, or the charges may need to 497 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: be reduced, but they want to get out because they've 498 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 1: been in jail, they've been away from their family or 499 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: friends for so long. Then they end up with a 500 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 1: conviction on the record because they wanted to get out 501 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: sooner than it spirals from there where it can limit 502 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:18,959 Speaker 1: them to be able to get a job in the future. 503 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: Is a cycle, and it could be done more efficiently. 504 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: An interesting thing about both of the points you guys 505 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 1: brought up is that it stops people from being contributing 506 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: members of society. If someone is stuck in jail, they 507 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: can't work, they can't support their families. If someone's on probation, 508 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: they can't travel, they can't do all these things that 509 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: we sort of uplift as a society of people contributing. 510 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,719 Speaker 1: And so then what are we doing because we're not 511 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: rehabilitating people, were not reaping the benefits of their skills 512 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: as a community. It just seems punitive exclusively at that point. 513 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: At some point, I mean, there are there are cases, 514 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: I mean, don't don't get me wrong where people do 515 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: need to be punished and how accountable for their actions. 516 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: But we have to again, we have to look at 517 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: the long view on some of these cases. Does putting 518 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: someone under a twenty year probationary sentence for something he 519 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: did when he was eighteen, does that make sense when 520 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: he's thirty five years old and has never been able 521 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: to get a job because he's got a felony on 522 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: his record. And I'm not saying if that person deserves it, 523 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: not to punish that person appropriately, But that goes back 524 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: to my point what's appropriate. The bond issue is tremendous 525 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: and what a lot of people don't understand. These people 526 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,959 Speaker 1: are all presumed to be innocent. And sometimes I know, 527 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: I've been in bond hearing many, many, many many times 528 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: on both sides where it's almost a little mini trial, 529 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: and it shouldn't be. The primary purpose of a bond 530 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: hearing is to ensure that someone returns to court for 531 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: future court dates. The government needs to show why this 532 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: person is a flight risk, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. I think 533 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: some of those principles get lost sometimes the presumption of 534 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: innocence that all those things we almost becomes becomes a game. 535 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: It seems like where once I just wants to one 536 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: up the other and one side just wants to win 537 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: on whatever little tip for tat little miniature issue. It 538 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: is like I've seen in bond hearings, which is really 539 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: a judge's call to make, and the judge will hear 540 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: from witnesses from either side. Really, but what you'll see 541 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: is you'll see the defense, who has got to have 542 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: the burden of proof, making their case for why somebody 543 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: in any given case should get bond. But then sometimes 544 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: maybe the prosecutor will put the arresting officer back on 545 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: the witness stand to give his or her opinion on 546 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: why the person, who they don't even know except for 547 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: this one encounter, why they shouldn't be granted bond. And 548 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: that's really not what the police are there for. There 549 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: there to present sort of the facts, not necessarily their 550 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: opinion on whether somebody gets bond. But I see that 551 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: kind of thing happening. I see it all the time. 552 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: I never did that when I was in the prosecutor's chair. 553 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 1: It is treated almost like a little game. You try 554 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: to find a little legal theory, or you went up 555 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: someone in one way in order to get what you want. 556 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: Sometimes prosecutors one they make decisions. They make the right decisions. 557 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: You know, it's not There are some very very very 558 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: very excellent prosecutors out there do the right things, and 559 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 1: then there are sometimes when you know you're faced with 560 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: the situation and you're thinking, well, wait a minute, why 561 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: is this person still in jail at the end of 562 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: the day, we can go through the theater if you 563 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: will all you want. Why is this person still in 564 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: jail when he doesn't when he shouldn't be. To flip 565 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: almost to the other side, we've talked a lot about 566 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: how the purpose of a defense attorney is to be 567 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: a zealous advocate for your client. Have you guys ever 568 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: had a moment where you were sort of like, oh, 569 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: this is the bad guy. They should have been punished more. 570 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: What's the new term throwing shade. I don't want to 571 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: throw all the all the shade on the prosecutors because 572 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: I used to be one and there was a case 573 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: I had. I'm not going to get into specifics. It 574 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: wasn't in this jurisdiction at all that this guy was. 575 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: He belonged in the cage, and he belonged in a 576 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: jail cell for the rest of his life. He was 577 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: just born a certain way and and I would have 578 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: done everything within the boundaries of the law to make 579 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: sure that he's spent every second in the jail cell 580 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: because he would hurt people. So yeah, I think that 581 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: there are cases on both sides when that happens, and 582 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: you just have to know. I mean that when you're 583 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: defending people charged with crimes. You're defending more than the person, right, 584 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: You're defending the freedoms that we all have. Okay, it's 585 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: like that saying, would you rather have ten guilty people 586 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: go free so that an innocent person can go free 587 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: as well? You're willing to have people be acquitted who 588 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: are guilty so that you could save the person who 589 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: is not guilty. Because everyone can find themselves in a 590 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: position where you're charged with the crime. You're defending all 591 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: those those liber these that you have. And you have 592 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 1: different cases, and you have different personalities, and you have 593 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: different clients and different kinds of cases. But if someone's 594 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: not going to defend client zealously, what are we doing? 595 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 1: So if that man that you were talking about, the 596 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: one that should have been locked up, had come to 597 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: you as a defense attorney, what would you have done? 598 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: Would you have just not taken the case or tough question? 599 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: I don't know. One of the things I love about 600 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: working here is that we have some a little bit 601 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: of flexibility and freedom about what we take on. And 602 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: I would have to think on that it was a bad, 603 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: bad situation. Well, every lawyer is not right for every case, 604 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: and let's face it, in the criminal justice world, there's 605 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: some really gnarly stuff that happens, and so if a 606 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,719 Speaker 1: lawyer is not able to objectively deal with it, they 607 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: shouldn't they. I think they have an obligation to not, because, look, 608 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 1: we're not right for every case. Every case hitting right 609 00:33:56,040 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: for us, and if somebody chooses to hire somebody other 610 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 1: than us, that doesn't hurt our feelings either, because what 611 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: I want is the person to have the counsel that 612 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: they're most comfortable with, because I think the system works 613 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 1: better in that sense. If a lawyer can't objectively take 614 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: a case, they just need to leave it be let 615 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,320 Speaker 1: somebody who is able to do that handle the case. 616 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,880 Speaker 1: We have ethical obligations to not take everything, if that 617 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: makes sense. Are there ever instances where you're watching the 618 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,800 Speaker 1: news and it's one of these big maybe like serial 619 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: killer cases, and you watch how the defense attorney is interacting, 620 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: maybe sort of critically, or oh yeah, when I see 621 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: something on the news and I see these press conferences 622 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: on the courthouse steps, I look at it very carefully 623 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: because some lawyers go too far and the things they say, 624 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: they sometimes say some pretty ridiculous things. They will make 625 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,879 Speaker 1: guarantees that their client is innocent, and they look forward 626 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: to fighting it tooth and nail, and then the next 627 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 1: thing you know, they're a month and a half later, 628 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,399 Speaker 1: though there are pleading guilty. Why would you come out 629 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 1: and say that if you know that there's a chance 630 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 1: you might wind up pleading guilty next month. When it 631 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 1: comes to high profile or media cases, a lot of 632 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: times it's best to just not say anything, because, especially 633 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 1: early on in the case, you don't know what's going on. 634 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: You're still gathering information, and what you're being told may 635 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,240 Speaker 1: or may not wind up being the case ten minutes 636 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 1: or ten weeks from now. Do you guys have pet 637 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: peeves about the way people talk about the criminal justice 638 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: system or maybe using legal terms wrong, something that just 639 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 1: really gets under your skin. You hear the people say, well, 640 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: proof beyond the shadow of a doubt or proof beyond 641 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 1: all doubt, and it's really common, and it's and I 642 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 1: shouldn't be so critical about it because it is a 643 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: legal term of art, but it's it's not it's not accurate. 644 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: There's no requirement anybody prove anything beyond the shadow of 645 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: that What the hell does that even mean? But I 646 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 1: do have a bigger pet peeve about the system in general, 647 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: to all the judges who might be listening to this 648 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: or whoever know me. What I won't say to your face, 649 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:52,800 Speaker 1: but I might be thinking when I'm in your courtroom 650 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: is stop wasting our time. And I'm referring to not 651 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 1: just my time, but my client's time, their families time, 652 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,360 Speaker 1: the prosecutor's time, all the other people in the courtroom 653 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,399 Speaker 1: there time. I've had things that have happened recently where 654 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 1: I'm in court for eight hours to accomplish something that 655 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,800 Speaker 1: should take eight minutes. When we talk about our system 656 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: is inefficient and there's not enough judges, there's not enough resources, 657 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 1: I'm thinking to myself, well, why don't we just use 658 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: the resources that we have more wisely? Time wasting is 659 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: a big piece of this. This is one of my 660 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 1: major pet peeves about the system in general, one of 661 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: those like this meeting could have been an email situations, 662 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,239 Speaker 1: except it's lasted eight hours and you've held all of 663 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: this captive your honor in this courtroom. Unnecessarily talk about 664 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: faults imprisonment. Judges know something about that, How dothen do 665 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 1: you have any pet peeves? Sure? I don't like it. 666 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: When people who have never been to law school cite 667 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 1: me some article they read on the internet written by 668 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 1: someone who probably sixteen years old, about how the best 669 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: way to proceed in this case is and say, look, relax, 670 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 1: the words in that article that you're quoting to me 671 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 1: aren't even spelled correctly. I don't think the legal principles 672 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: under writing them aren't correct either. Let us try to 673 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: find the best way to proceed. Okay, we we know 674 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: what we're doing. And sometimes you know, you have parents 675 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: who are very, very very involved. Quite frankly, some of 676 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 1: the best clients are the ones that have been, unfortunately 677 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 1: been in the justice system so long because they know 678 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:23,919 Speaker 1: the game. They know it. They don't call all the time. 679 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: They let you work the case, and they know that 680 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: you're going to do a good job. I told someone 681 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago, I talked to them about 682 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,439 Speaker 1: three times in one week and there was absolutely nothing 683 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,759 Speaker 1: really to report. And then find ways said, look, I 684 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: can call you and we can talk about the Chicago 685 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 1: Bears for an hour if you want to. I love 686 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,320 Speaker 1: the Bears, all right, but at some point you're taking 687 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 1: away you're taking away my time to be able to 688 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: work on your case. That kind of annoys me a 689 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 1: little bit. Another one that that I hear a lot 690 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 1: is like, oh, the police trapped me. Well, what do 691 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,400 Speaker 1: you mean they trapped you? We don't know they trapped me. 692 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:57,279 Speaker 1: You know they did this. I'm like, oh, you mean 693 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: they caught you. And so, you know, entrapment is maybe 694 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,359 Speaker 1: what they're thinking of. But there's all these misperceptions. Most 695 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 1: things are not entrapment. In fact, very few things are. 696 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 1: Merely providing someone with an opportunity to commit a crime 697 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: that they might be otherwise inclined to commit is not entrapment. 698 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,480 Speaker 1: So I've actually seen this happen when I was a prosecutor. 699 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: But if the police officer is selling little bits of 700 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 1: soap undercover on the street corner, telling you that it's 701 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: cracked cocaine, and you buy it, they have not trapped you. 702 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 1: They have provided you with an opportunity to do something, 703 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,839 Speaker 1: and then they've arrested you. So that that's a little 704 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 1: bit of an extreme example, but but I hear that 705 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:38,879 Speaker 1: a good bit. Well they trapped me, now they didn't 706 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: trap you. They call you. Another thing I just thought 707 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,760 Speaker 1: about was when clients don't tell you the truth, there's 708 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: a privilege there exercise. It's funny. I remember there was 709 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,040 Speaker 1: a case up that I was sitting in and up 710 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,840 Speaker 1: north a lawyer, a very high price lawyer from Chicago, 711 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: came down to the probable cause hearing and his his 712 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,880 Speaker 1: client had not told them what had really happened, and 713 00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: so we could go for the hearing. And he goes 714 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,240 Speaker 1: into the side room where he and his client were talking, 715 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 1: screaming obscenities, basically told them, I'll tell you what's a 716 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,799 Speaker 1: good idea. Why don't you drive your car right into 717 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,320 Speaker 1: the police station, show them the drugs, showing the guns. 718 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 1: In that way, they can arrest you very, very easily. 719 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,319 Speaker 1: You're not told the right information, sometimes it hurts the 720 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: person who's been who's been charged. Yeah, you should never 721 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,840 Speaker 1: talk to the police, but you should always talk to 722 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 1: your lawyer, and you should always tell the truth to 723 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: your lawyer, because if you don't, they can't help you. 724 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,319 Speaker 1: In fact, if they've got the wrong information, they may 725 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 1: make tactical or strategic moves that are not in your 726 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: best interests. I will say one of the things I've 727 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: learned the most from working on this is never talked 728 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 1: to the police. If you're accused of a crime. When 729 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: do you have to say anything? Never? You never have 730 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,399 Speaker 1: to say anything. You don't even have to tell him 731 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 1: your name. You may not be able to post bond 732 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,720 Speaker 1: until you give them enough information to proceed with booking, 733 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 1: but you don't really have to say anything. I had 734 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 1: a case once where someone was accused of obstructing a 735 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: law enforcement officer because they would not talk to them. 736 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 1: This person was actually arrested posted bond, and you know, 737 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 1: the charge eventually got dismissed, and that the prosecutor just 738 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 1: was laughing about it was like, I can't because it 739 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: was hysterically funny in the sense that it was something 740 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 1: so obvious. You know, you can't arrest somebody for not 741 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: talking to the police. They have an absolute constitutional right. Now. 742 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 1: It wasn't funny that they got arrested. That wasn't why 743 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: we were laughing, but it was just so obviously wrong. 744 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 1: Even the prosecutor didn't bat night dropping that charge. I 745 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: want to thank everybody for making this season really, really good. 746 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,319 Speaker 1: I think we've opened up a lot of topics for 747 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 1: discussion that needed to be open, and I hope that 748 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:39,799 Speaker 1: we will continue to build on it. But if it 749 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 1: weren't for the people who have subscribed and listened, none 750 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:44,480 Speaker 1: of this would be possible. So I just want to 751 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 1: say thanks to to everybody, not only our listeners, but 752 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,160 Speaker 1: also to you folks who have helped with production. I 753 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 1: want to say thanks to everybody who has participated this 754 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,560 Speaker 1: season as a as a guest and has provided their 755 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,719 Speaker 1: time and their expertise to give us some really eight interviews, 756 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,760 Speaker 1: because without all of those pieces in place, we couldn't 757 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,360 Speaker 1: have put this together. And I think it's been awesome. 758 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 1: So thanks to all those folks collectively, and with that, 759 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 1: I guess that's a wrap on season two of Sworn. 760 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 1: Sworn is a production of Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio. 761 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:25,480 Speaker 1: Our lead producer is Christina Dana. Executive producers are Payne 762 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:29,640 Speaker 1: Lindsay and Donald Albright for Tenderfoot TV, Matt Frederick and 763 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 1: Alex Williams for I Heart Radio, and myself Philip Holloway. 764 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 1: Additional production by Trevor Young, Mason Lindsay, Mike Rooney, Jamie 765 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:43,759 Speaker 1: Albright and Hallie Beadal. Original music and sound designed by 766 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 1: Makeup and Vanity Set. Our theme song is Blood in 767 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 1: the Water by Layup. Show art and design is by 768 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:55,799 Speaker 1: Trevor Eisler, editing by Christina Dana, mixing and mastering by 769 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,640 Speaker 1: Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner. Special thanks to the team 770 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: at Heart Radio from U T a or In Rosenbound 771 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 1: and Grace Royer, Ryan Nord and Matthew Papa from the 772 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: Nord Group that Media and Marketing and Station sixteen. I'd 773 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,760 Speaker 1: also like to extend a very personal and special thanks 774 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,760 Speaker 1: to all of our contributors and guests who have helped 775 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 1: to make all of these episodes possible. You can find 776 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:28,560 Speaker 1: Sworn on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at Sworn podcast and 777 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:32,400 Speaker 1: follow me your host, Philip Halloway on Twitter at phil 778 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:37,400 Speaker 1: Holloway e s Q. Our website is sworn podcast dot com, 779 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,920 Speaker 1: and you can check out other Tenderfoot TV podcasts at 780 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:46,240 Speaker 1: www dot tenderfoot dot tv. If you have questions or comments, 781 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 1: you can email us at Sworn at tenderfoot dot tv 782 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:55,120 Speaker 1: or leave us a voicemail at four zero four for 783 00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 1: one zero zero four four one. As always, thanks for listening.