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Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapists advice

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Speaker 1: column for the Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a real session where

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Speaker 1: we help people confront the problems in their lives and

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Speaker 1: then give them actionable advice and have them report back

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Speaker 1: to let us know what happened when they did what

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Speaker 1: we suggested.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,

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Speaker 2: a woman whose family disowned her after she refused to

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Speaker 2: loan her father a huge amount of money, monds how

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Speaker 2: to grieve the loss and how to trust again.

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Speaker 3: That evening, my dad call me. I thought he wanted

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Speaker 3: to apologize, but then it was all about I'm not

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Speaker 3: your dad anymore, You're not my daughter anymore. We're just

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Speaker 3: strangers now. You mean nothing to me.

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Speaker 1: First, a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.

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Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is

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Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice. Diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 1: By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia

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Speaker 1: use it in part or in full, and we may

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Speaker 1: edit it for length and clarity. In the session you'll hear.

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Speaker 1: All names have been changed for the privacy of our guests.

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Speaker 2: Hi Guy, Hi Laurie. What do we have in our

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Speaker 2: mailbooks today?

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Speaker 1: Today we have a letter about a disagreement around finances

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Speaker 1: with a parent. And here's how it goes. Dear Therapists,

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Speaker 1: About a year and a half ago, crazy things happened

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Speaker 1: between me and my dad. His business was not doing

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Speaker 1: well and he wanted to get a loan for himself

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Speaker 1: by using my name. It was an amount that I

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Speaker 1: felt like I would never be able to repay in

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Speaker 1: my lifetime. When I said no, my dad shouted to

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Speaker 1: me on the phone that I was quote no longer

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Speaker 1: his daughter. I always considered my dad a role model

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Speaker 1: and did everything I could to meet his expectations and

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Speaker 1: get his praises. It was shocking and heartbreaking to go

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Speaker 1: through that experience. After a disturbing incident, I became scared

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Speaker 1: of him and moved to a new city across the country.

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Speaker 1: Since then, I have not spoken to anyone in my family.

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Speaker 1: My mom, my grandma, my siblings, my cousins, etc. They

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Speaker 1: all think that I was acting selfishly by not helping

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Speaker 1: my dad, even after I described what had happened. However,

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Speaker 1: as time goes by, I have this urge of reconnecting

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Speaker 1: with my dad and the rest of my family. I

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Speaker 1: am extremely conflicted because I don't think reconnecting will end

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Speaker 1: well for me, but I can't help but feel lonely

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Speaker 1: and crave the family connection. What should I do, Vanessa?

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Speaker 2: I feel really badly full, Vanessa, that is an incredible

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Speaker 2: amount of loss to sustain. If she lost her dad,

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Speaker 2: her mom, grandparents, siblings, cousins, everyone, she lost her entire family.

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Speaker 2: What perplexes me is how this came about so shockingly

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Speaker 2: and suddenly, this massive change in behavior on the father spot,

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Speaker 2: when there was apparently no indication of these kinds of

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Speaker 2: tendencies previously. So I'm just curious about whether they were

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Speaker 2: and she wasn't seeing them, and if not, well, what

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Speaker 2: was actually going on with him? And why is all

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Speaker 2: her family taking the father's side. There must be more

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Speaker 2: to that story too, so there's a lot of missing

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Speaker 2: pieces for me on this.

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Speaker 1: I'm also curious why she was the one that the

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Speaker 1: family depended on to make this loan. But I'm guessing

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Speaker 1: that this dynamic that's going on now probably has some

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Speaker 1: history to it. So let's go talk to her and

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Speaker 1: find out. You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back after a short break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench, and this is Dear Therapists. So,

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Speaker 2: Hi Vanessa, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Hi Vanessa, Hi, thank you so much for your time.

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Speaker 1: Of course, so we wanted to start by learning a

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Speaker 1: little bit about you. How old you are, what you

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Speaker 1: do for a living, if you're living with anybody, or

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Speaker 1: you're living by yourself.

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Speaker 3: So I am in my late twenties and I work

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Speaker 3: as an analyst, and I lived by myself.

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Speaker 1: So in your letter you talked about this incident with

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Speaker 1: your father. Can you take us through from the beginning

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Speaker 1: what happened.

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Speaker 3: So during COVID we were all in lockdown mode. I

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Speaker 3: was by myself, and now I was really worried about

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Speaker 3: my parents and my grandparents' health and all that. So

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Speaker 3: I moved back to be closer to my parents. I'm

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Speaker 3: the oldest child. I have siblings and growing up, my parents'

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Speaker 3: marriage wasn't perfect at all. We did witness like domestic

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Speaker 3: violence from my dad to my mom. But my dad

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Speaker 3: has never lay up finger on any of us. Maybe

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Speaker 3: in an immigrant family where I'm coming from, is very

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Speaker 3: normal in that way. So I was actually proud.

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Speaker 1: What make you proud of him?

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Speaker 3: Because he had never lay a finger on us. I

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Speaker 3: remember telling my friends when was in elementary school, Oh,

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Speaker 3: I have this amazing that my dad never bid me

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Speaker 3: like it was because we were all very concerned about

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Speaker 3: our test results. And then I was like, my parents

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Speaker 3: will never do that to me because I got an

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Speaker 3: ask exam.

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Speaker 1: In other words, what was normal in your world was

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Speaker 1: that if you didn't perform academically that there would be

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Speaker 1: some kind of physical punishment.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, my cousins all experienced that, So I was like,

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Speaker 3: oh my god, my dad is always It's so amazing.

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Speaker 2: But you said growing up it was normal that if

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Speaker 2: you didn't do well, you might get by a parent.

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Speaker 2: Was it also normal for domestic violence to happen between

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Speaker 2: the parents, such that the fact that there was domestic

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Speaker 2: violence in your home didn't register as problematic.

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Speaker 3: I think the interpretation of the domestic violence was very

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Speaker 3: different one was growing up. Right now, I understand just

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Speaker 3: any formal violence is violence, But then one was growing up.

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Speaker 3: I always thought, oh, if my dad just say something

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Speaker 3: really mean to my mom, or throw a cup on

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Speaker 3: the floor, or like hit my mom with a pillow,

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Speaker 3: that's nothing because she's technically not wounded. So my mom

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Speaker 3: would always come to me when this happens. Whether it's

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Speaker 3: three am, it really did not matter to her what

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Speaker 3: time it was.

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Speaker 4: For me.

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Speaker 1: There would be some domestic violence and your mom would

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Speaker 1: call you.

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Speaker 3: She would show up in front.

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Speaker 4: Of my door.

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Speaker 1: Oh, she would come to be with you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So in the fall I had a really big fight,

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Speaker 3: and then my mom came to me as three am,

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Speaker 3: knocking on my door, and she promised, and she wouldn't

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Speaker 3: answer my dad's call for like two weeks, and we

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Speaker 3: promised that, oh, we should figure this out. If you

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Speaker 3: want to leave, you should like why would you want

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Speaker 3: to get yourself hurt? And she wouldn't answer my dad's

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Speaker 3: call for like two weeks, and suddenly she picked up

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Speaker 3: one call from my dad without me knowing, and they're

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Speaker 3: back together. And to this day, I don't know what

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Speaker 3: happened during that call.

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Speaker 1: What had he done to her that made her come

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Speaker 1: over to you, and that you felt like she has

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Speaker 1: got to leave.

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Speaker 3: He was very violent to the point that my mom

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Speaker 3: thought she would die.

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Speaker 2: And did she have bruises on her?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 2: Were you alarmed by that or was that not a

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Speaker 2: surprise for you?

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Speaker 3: I was alarmed because, to be honest, that was my

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Speaker 3: first time actually seeing evidence from the violence, because I

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Speaker 3: know this happened, but I never really understand the severity.

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Speaker 3: And the thing is, I'm partially at fault at this

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Speaker 3: because growing up, my mom would always call me when

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Speaker 3: any small inconvenience happens to her. But really she was

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Speaker 3: just trying to dump it all out on me and

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Speaker 3: she never tried to change anything. Like since high school,

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Speaker 3: I was in boarding school, so I was never home much.

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Speaker 3: But I feel like my mom was like the guy

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Speaker 3: who cries wealth every single time. So it was my

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Speaker 3: first time actually seeing the physical result.

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Speaker 1: Because you were away, you didn't realize how severe it

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Speaker 1: actually was.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because my mom sometimes like exaggeratings, so I never

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Speaker 3: know whether it's true or not. And that's something she

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Speaker 3: criticized about me a lot because she always thinks that

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Speaker 3: I take a lot of things too seriously. So then

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Speaker 3: she would call me and be like, oh my god,

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Speaker 3: something extremely awful happened. I'm gonna die. And now I

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Speaker 3: would get extremely serious on the phone with her. I

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Speaker 3: was like, you should go to the doctor, and how

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Speaker 3: can you allow that happen? And then at the end

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Speaker 3: of the course, she was like, oh my god, you're

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Speaker 3: taking things too seriously, or like, oh, it's not a

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Speaker 3: big deal. Oh, nothing happened. So for almost thirty years

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Speaker 3: in my life, that's what happened. And so then like

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Speaker 3: when I first saw that, I was shocked. So I

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Speaker 3: stopped taking my dad like calls and messages as well,

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Speaker 3: because I want my dad to admit that he's wrong,

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Speaker 3: like make amend or like find a solution, whether it's

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Speaker 3: divorced or not.

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Speaker 2: Vanessa, you said, well, that was my fault that I

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Speaker 2: didn't take my mom seriously, and then you explain, well,

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Speaker 2: because she kept minimizing it and not changing it. Why

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Speaker 2: do you feel then that it's your fault.

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Speaker 3: Because if, especially as the first child, I did not

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Speaker 3: stand up and pointed out openly in my family.

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Speaker 2: Is that the role of the first child in your culture,

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Speaker 2: that if you see something between your parents, the first

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Speaker 2: child has to stand up and point it out and

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Speaker 2: put it on the table.

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Speaker 1: No, where did you get the idea that this was

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Speaker 1: your role, that you are responsible for what happens between

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Speaker 1: your parents.

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Speaker 3: After the incident, I w knew a therapist as well.

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Speaker 3: There was this reflection that came to my mind. It's

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Speaker 3: like growing up. Even though I was away while my

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Speaker 3: siblings were at home, they always say I'm the oldest,

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Speaker 3: so I should come and handle the family issue.

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Speaker 1: Who says that.

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Speaker 3: My relatives. So there were two instants in the time

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Speaker 3: frame the one year I was home when the first

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Speaker 3: instead happened. My mother's older sister and her daughter who

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Speaker 3: is older than me. They just suddenly show up in

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Speaker 3: front of my door really late as well, and then

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Speaker 3: they look extremely serious and they were just like, are

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Speaker 3: you gonna take care of your mom?

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Speaker 4: I didn't even know.

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Speaker 3: My parents had an argument. I had no idea what happened?

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Speaker 1: Did you ask?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 3: I was like, come down, what happened? And they were

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Speaker 3: just like, oh, your mom is walking over to your

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Speaker 3: apartment right now? And I was like, walking, are you serious?

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Speaker 3: My aunt was like, oh, your mom called me with

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Speaker 3: a stranger's phone an hour ago, saying that she's on

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Speaker 3: the way to your place, and she and your dad

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Speaker 3: had an argument, and now she just left the house

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Speaker 3: without a car, without wallet, without her phone, And I

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Speaker 3: was like, what happened? And she said she doesn't know.

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Speaker 3: But then she's just like, why aren't you acting your part?

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Speaker 1: What did your aunt say she wanted you to do?

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Speaker 3: She wants me to make sure that my dad doesn't

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Speaker 3: hit her anymore.

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Speaker 1: How are you supposed to do that?

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Speaker 3: I don't know. The weirdest part is that, well, when

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Speaker 3: my mom got here, why to ask her are you okay?

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Speaker 3: Like I heard you walked? How long did it take you?

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Speaker 3: And she's like, oh, she doesn't know. But after my

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Speaker 3: aunt and cousin left, my mom admitted to me that

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Speaker 3: she did not walk. She actually took a cab. I

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Speaker 3: was like, why didn't you tell like aunt and like

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Speaker 3: my cousin about it. They're so angry about the fact

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Speaker 3: that my dad, what did you leave without money or

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Speaker 3: a car or anything? And then she was like, there's

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Speaker 3: no need to let them know.

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Speaker 2: So this is the kind of thing that made you

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Speaker 2: feel like it's hard to know. With my mom the

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Speaker 2: crying wolf, it's difficult to know where reality lies.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I don't know what she want from me, So

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Speaker 1: it's very confusing because it's hard to know what's really

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Speaker 1: what's not real. And yet you blame yourself for not

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Speaker 1: taking her seriously at the times when she did report

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Speaker 1: things to you without acknowledging that partly, it was hard

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Speaker 1: to know how seriously to take her because she would

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Speaker 1: either minimize it or she wasn't telling the whole truth.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes I always get a sense that she tells parts

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Speaker 4: of the story to different people.

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Speaker 3: I find it hard to really piece stories together for

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Speaker 3: her to really identify the action of items I need

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Speaker 3: to do.

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Speaker 2: We're both saying that we understand that there was some

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Speaker 2: dramatic license and her stories, and therefore it was hard

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Speaker 2: for you to know what to do with them. But

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Speaker 2: let's see about the second incident and then what happened

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Speaker 2: with your dad.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, after the second incident, my mom was staying with

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Speaker 3: me at that time, and then she was not talking

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Speaker 3: to my dad at all. I would occasionally speak to

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Speaker 3: my dad on the phone. I wanted to be bridge

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Speaker 3: that ament, the gap between them. And then suddenly, all

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Speaker 3: of blue, like they got back so nicely together, and

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Speaker 3: my mom stopped answering my calls. My mom moved out

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Speaker 3: when I was not home, back to my parents' house,

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Speaker 3: and I just could not speak to her alone ever since.

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Speaker 3: And then about a week after my mom moved out,

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Speaker 3: my dad suddenly came to visit me in my apartment

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Speaker 3: and said, I'm so sorry for what I did to

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Speaker 3: your mom this time and over the years, and I'm

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Speaker 3: so sorry for all the mistakes that I might have done.

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Speaker 1: When you said you were trying to mediate between your

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Speaker 1: mom and your dad, did you tell your dad how

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Speaker 1: disturbed and terrified you were to see your mom show

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Speaker 1: up in bruises? Yes, And what was his response to that?

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Speaker 1: Did he acknowledge that he had a problem.

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Speaker 3: He said, it was an incident, and my mom like

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Speaker 3: try to fight back as well, and he was hurt

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 1: Of course she tried to fight back because she's defending herself.

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Speaker 1: But how did that land with you that he said, well,

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Speaker 1: it was an incident, and then your mom shows up

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Speaker 1: with all these bruises.

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Speaker 3: I thought he was not taking things seriously. So I

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Speaker 3: actually took my mom to a hospital to get all

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Speaker 3: of her bruises, like recorded, just in case like she

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Speaker 3: needed in the future. I actually was encouraged them to

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Speaker 3: get a divorce vocally.

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Speaker 1: But when you spoke to your dad and you said, Dad,

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Speaker 1: I'm horrified by how you hurt mom, And he said, well,

288
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Speaker 1: it was just an incident. Did you have anything else

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Speaker 1: that you wanted from him, like I need you to

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Speaker 1: get help. Did you talk to him about that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I asked him, like why he is played? I

292
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,440
Speaker 3: not doing in the future to avoid this kind of

293
00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,120
Speaker 3: thing happened, And I even asking if it's necessary for

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Speaker 3: my mom to move out of the house and move

295
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Speaker 3: in with me for however long it will take for

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Speaker 3: him to recover from his violence. I thought if I

297
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Speaker 3: just separated them, then the issue would not happen anymore.

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Speaker 1: So somehow you thought that instead of this being his responsibility,

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Speaker 1: that this was your responsibility, Like if I separate them,

300
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Speaker 1: I can solve this, as opposed to he needs to

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Speaker 1: take responsibility and go get help.

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Speaker 3: I think growing up, I always thought it was my

303
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Speaker 3: responsibility to fix anything in my.

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Speaker 1: Family, because that was the message that you got from.

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Speaker 3: Everyone, my parents, my relatives, especially my grandparents. My grandma

306
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,840
Speaker 3: on her dying bed, called me when was in college

307
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Speaker 3: because my parents got into an argument.

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Speaker 2: So the idea was that you're the eldest. Your job

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00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,760
Speaker 2: is to mediate between your parents, to keep the family peace,

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Speaker 2: to be the guardian of the family, to solve the

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Speaker 2: problems or come up with the solutions. You took on

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00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:18,880
Speaker 2: very seriously the role of rescuer there. How much were

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Speaker 2: you thinking at the time about your own feelings, your

314
00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:28,359
Speaker 2: own needs, the expectations, the responsibility, the actual violence that

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Speaker 2: was going on. How much were you of variable in

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Speaker 2: your own equation for what your duties are.

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Speaker 3: To be honest, I was glad that I was there.

318
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Speaker 3: I was so relieved that, like when the two incidents happened,

319
00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,399
Speaker 3: I was physically there in the same city so my

320
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Speaker 3: mom could escape to my place.

321
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Speaker 2: It felt good to you to fulfill your duty in

322
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Speaker 2: a way. What I'm asking you, though, is your duty

323
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Speaker 2: as defined by your family is to the family primarily,

324
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Speaker 2: and I'm asking about your duty to yourself as well

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Speaker 2: as a member of the family for your own emotional

326
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Speaker 2: well being. That was a factor in any of the

327
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Speaker 2: thinking that went on around.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't at the moment that it is now. I'm

329
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,639
Speaker 3: still trying to understand why no one from my relatives,

330
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Speaker 3: or my parents or my grandparents never went to my

331
00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,760
Speaker 3: siblings for anything, And of course they always have the

332
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Speaker 3: reasoning like you're the oldest, you should be mature enough.

333
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Speaker 4: But one was growing up, one was twelve.

334
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Speaker 3: They would come to me, and one was away in

335
00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:42,240
Speaker 3: high school. They were come to me. So I start

336
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:47,719
Speaker 3: to believe that it was my responsibility as well, just

337
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,280
Speaker 3: because I was the oldest. But now I don't think

338
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Speaker 3: it's true at all. And a lot of their actions

339
00:18:55,320 --> 00:19:01,080
Speaker 3: were extremely disrespectful of me as an ind right.

340
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Speaker 2: So your dad comes over, he's buttering you up. Where

341
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:05,720
Speaker 2: did that conversation go?

342
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,480
Speaker 4: I was crying in front of him because I was

343
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Speaker 4: so touched.

344
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Speaker 1: So you thought it was genuine?

345
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,919
Speaker 4: Yes, I was like, oh my god, you're back to

346
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,159
Speaker 4: the father I knew you were.

347
00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:21,919
Speaker 3: Of course you realize you're wrong. Anyone can see like

348
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,520
Speaker 3: domestic violences wrong. I'm so happy that you recognize this,

349
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,600
Speaker 3: so it's not gonna happen anymore. And I was just

350
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,360
Speaker 3: so touched. And my dad was even asking, oh, am

351
00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,280
Speaker 3: I a good dad for you, and I.

352
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Speaker 4: Was like, yeah, of course you're the best.

353
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:45,199
Speaker 3: No, I just feel stupid because what happened. Yeah, So

354
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:50,800
Speaker 3: within twelve hours his assistant called me. He was like

355
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Speaker 3: can you go to this place your dad is signed? No,

356
00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,800
Speaker 3: can you go? Like your dad wants to meet you there?

357
00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,280
Speaker 4: I was like yeah, of course, Like why wouldn't I

358
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,480
Speaker 4: go meet with my dad at any place?

359
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:08,560
Speaker 2: Well, especially this reformed, idealized version of him, now that

360
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,359
Speaker 2: he reformed the night before, now that he had a

361
00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:16,600
Speaker 2: moment where he acknowledges and took responsibility and connected, so

362
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,080
Speaker 2: it was even more enticing to go and meet this

363
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:20,320
Speaker 2: version of him.

364
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,200
Speaker 1: Tell us what happened when you go to meet him.

365
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,680
Speaker 3: So I went to the bank and I saw my

366
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:31,199
Speaker 3: dad and he was, of course all nice like the

367
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,960
Speaker 3: night before. He was like, oh, how's your day, like

368
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,320
Speaker 3: all that kind of good stuff. And then suddenly he

369
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,960
Speaker 3: was like, hey, I just need your signature very quick.

370
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Speaker 3: That was like for what we're at a bank, I.

371
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Speaker 4: Don't know, maybe something good. I was expecting something good

372
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 4: to happen.

373
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,520
Speaker 3: He suddenly has like a million of dollars and decided

374
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:51,840
Speaker 3: to transfer me some, but no, he wanted me to

375
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,960
Speaker 3: sign a loan. That was first of all, I would

376
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:56,760
Speaker 3: never be able to take it out if I just

377
00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,879
Speaker 3: go to the bank myself. So a ply he arranged

378
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 3: something with the bank. So I was able to get

379
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:08,560
Speaker 3: that amount of loan under my name, and I felt

380
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,240
Speaker 3: like I would never be able to repay it myself,

381
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,600
Speaker 3: so I was very hesitant. I said, let me think

382
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,320
Speaker 3: about it, and I just went home. He was like, yeah,

383
00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,240
Speaker 3: think about it. It's not a big deal. I'll pay

384
00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 3: you back. Because I was getting money for him for

385
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:24,560
Speaker 3: his business.

386
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Speaker 2: Need just to be clear for our listeners. So the

387
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,280
Speaker 2: expectation was, sign a loan in your name, get the

388
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 2: money from the bank, give me all the money from

389
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:35,960
Speaker 2: the bank, and then I will pay you back so

390
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,919
Speaker 2: that you can repay the loan. Yes, and you like,

391
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:40,840
Speaker 2: that's not alone I would have gotten. I don't have

392
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,640
Speaker 2: enough connateral or savings to get that kind of loan,

393
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,040
Speaker 2: so that puts me in significant jeopardy.

394
00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,399
Speaker 1: Yes, it's interesting because when you first got there, you

395
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,679
Speaker 1: thought the reason he wanted you to sign something was

396
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,879
Speaker 1: maybe he was going to give something to you. You

397
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,360
Speaker 1: thought maybe something really nice has just happened.

398
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, because of the night before, he was so nice.

399
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:02,640
Speaker 4: He was like, you're my favorite kid.

400
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 3: Even it was like, you're like fixing the relationship between

401
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,640
Speaker 3: me and your mom. You're doing such an amazing job.

402
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 2: So he really went all out the night before to

403
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 2: really kind of lay.

404
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,680
Speaker 3: The groundwork, and finally I feel like I was being

405
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 3: acknowledged for the first time by someone, and especially that

406
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,880
Speaker 3: someone is the person I idolized for my whole life.

407
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 1: Even waiting your whole life for somebody to acknowledge all

408
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 1: of the sacrifices that you had made on behalf of

409
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,880
Speaker 1: the family. And he was finally seeing you and appreciating

410
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 1: that and acknowledging that, had it been genuine, that must

411
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 1: have felt so good.

412
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 3: I didn't know I need that acknowledgment until he set it,

413
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 3: and I was completely broken down in tears, of course,

414
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 3: happy tears, and extremely relief. I had never felt that

415
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 3: relief in my lifetime.

416
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 2: So then you go home and you start reflecting on

417
00:22:56,119 --> 00:23:00,239
Speaker 2: the request, and you must have connected what happened night

418
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 2: before with the request that came the next morning, and

419
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:08,200
Speaker 2: so it must have taken you from this extream high

420
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 2: to a pretty low. I would imagine tell us what

421
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 2: you were thinking and feeling that when you got home

422
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 2: and you were starting to think through what was going on.

423
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 3: I was just surprised and shocked. When I look at

424
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 3: the number on that book, like it feels like it

425
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,959
Speaker 3: was a book when you sign alone. So then I

426
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,199
Speaker 3: was like, let me take the paperback. I does some

427
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 3: research myself, ask my friends who knows more about finance

428
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,440
Speaker 3: than I do, and then they were just like, don't

429
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 3: sign it. You're basically putting your life out there if

430
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 3: your dad doesn't pay this money back, like your stock

431
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 3: for life. They even said you might go to jail

432
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 3: if you can pay the low and I was freaking

433
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 3: out because I don't want to go into jail for

434
00:23:55,359 --> 00:24:01,199
Speaker 3: something I did not do, and especially the money is

435
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 3: not going to me, and I have no idea how

436
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 3: my dad would repay this, so I asked my dad

437
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 3: for a payment plan, and all of this information just

438
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 3: seemed so vague and just not stable enough for my

439
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 3: risk tolerance level. It dragged for a week and my

440
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 3: dad's friend, this uncle figure in my life, he knocked

441
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 3: on my door too, and he was like, hey, I

442
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 3: heard you have a small disagreement that's happening between you

443
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 3: and your dad. And you know, your dad loves you

444
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 3: so much, really cares about you. You are everything to hey,

445
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 3: and he is struggling trying to communicate with you. So

446
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,679
Speaker 3: I'm here just to listen, you know, like an uncle

447
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,639
Speaker 3: do you want to get coffee downstairs? And I was

448
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 3: like sure, Like I know him since I was a kid.

449
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 3: So we went to the closest cafe that's like five

450
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:59,439
Speaker 3: minutes away from my apartment, and we went to like

451
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 3: a really back of the cafe and I was facing

452
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 3: back of the door. I thought it was a one

453
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 3: on one meeting. But my dad show up, my dad's

454
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 3: assistant show up, people from the bank show up, and

455
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 3: the whole conversation suddenly elevated. My dad tried to hit

456
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 3: me with like a cup.

457
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 2: Wait, so they show up, they circle you, they're trying

458
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 2: to pressure you. Obviously, how did it get from that

459
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 2: to your dad trying to hit you with a cup.

460
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 3: I was in the conversation of trying to explain to

461
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 3: this uncle figure in my life, this is a big loan.

462
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 3: I have to really think about it. I don't think

463
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,479
Speaker 3: I can repay and I have to be ready to

464
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 3: repay it back if something happened to my dad's finance

465
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 3: and he was like.

466
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 4: Oh, don't worry about it.

467
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,719
Speaker 3: Why are you worried about it? You're in good hands,

468
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 3: it's your dad. Why would he not take care of

469
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 3: you do anything that's harmful? To you, and then the

470
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 3: bank people showed up with the paper and be like, hey,

471
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 3: you should trust us. Your dad negotiated really well. I

472
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 3: don't know when those people arrived because I was facing back.

473
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 2: You were also very much quote by surprise and in shock,

474
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 2: and so it's very difficult sometimes to remember a sequence

475
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 2: of events when you were in chock, because it was

476
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 2: this one shock after another after another after another after another.

477
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 2: People just kept showing up, so you didn't have time

478
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 2: to process anything, and it was very overwhelming.

479
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 3: It was, and I have no idea how long people

480
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 3: were in the back lurking like listening to my conversation.

481
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 3: I don't know if they arrived at the same time

482
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 3: or they arrived in the sequence that I saw them.

483
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 3: But they had everything ready. It was a plan, a bush.

484
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 1: It was an ambush. It was absolutely an ambush.

485
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 3: I know. And then my dad showed up and said,

486
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 3: why aren't you so worry about this? I explained to him,

487
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 3: I said to you so many times I don't think

488
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 3: I can repay this myself, so I don't think I

489
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 3: can be capable of owning up to this responsibility. And

490
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 3: he was like, why are we making such a big deal?

491
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 3: I can definitely pay it back. Don't worry. You're being

492
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 3: so just cowardly about this.

493
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: This is so interesting because you have this with both

494
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 1: of your parents that they tell you these big things,

495
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: like your mom says, your dad was violent with me,

496
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: and then she minimizes it, and so you don't know

497
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 1: what to believe. And then your dad says, here's this

498
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 1: huge amount of money that I need this loan for

499
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,239
Speaker 1: and you say that doesn't sound right, and then he says, oh, no, no, no,

500
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 1: don't worry about it. So it's very hard to trust

501
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: the people that you should be able to trust. The

502
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 1: people that you want to trust, your parents, but they

503
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 1: give you so many mixed messages and it's so confusing and.

504
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 3: Actually never thought about this way. You know what this

505
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 3: reminds me of growing up. My parents always told me

506
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 3: not to trust anyone, including them, including them. They said,

507
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 3: not to trust anyone in this world except for yourself.

508
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 3: My dad would say not even your mom, and my

509
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 3: mom would say not even your dad.

510
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 2: That's quite the statement. That statement usually goes with accept

511
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 2: your family. But you kind of dismissed it when you

512
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 2: were told them because you did trust them.

513
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, whoever they tell me this kind of advice. I

514
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 3: always dismissed it because I always feel like they have

515
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 3: such a negative outlook on life, and I don't think

516
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 3: that's healthy.

517
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 4: And I feel like relationship should be built by trust.

518
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 3: And going back to the incident, when my dad was

519
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 3: trying to just get away with his so called plans

520
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 3: to pay me back, I just really did not think

521
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 3: that was logical, and he started to just go against

522
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 3: with everything he told me. When he was trying to

523
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 3: make amend with me, he was like, you're such a disappointment.

524
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 3: Why can't you do this one thing for me that

525
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 3: I'm asking you literally don't need to do anything. You

526
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 3: just sign your name and I'll pay the money back

527
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 3: for you. And I said, no, that I'm going to

528
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 3: go into jail for this if you can't pay me back,

529
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 3: because I don't think I can pay it back.

530
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: So you trusted yourself at that point.

531
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 3: Yes, I was trying to stay calm, but deeply inside

532
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 3: I know I was extremely shaky and emotional.

533
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: This reminds me of the way that he would treat

534
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: your mom. You said she didn't want to talk with

535
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: you after she went back to your dad because I

536
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: think she had so much shame around that. I think

537
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: that she knew that because now you knew the extent

538
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: of what was going on, that you would try to

539
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: bring that up and talk to her about it and

540
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: get her to leave and get her to be safe,

541
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: and she, for whatever reasons is, was not willing to

542
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: do that. And so here your father is doing to

543
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: you what he would do to your mom, which is

544
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: trying to intimidate you into doing something that you need

545
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: to do to protect yourself. Your mom couldn't protect herself,

546
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: but you were trying to protect yourself, and you were

547
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: very clear about protecting yourself, even if you were shaky inside.

548
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: And that's where the violence comes in, where someone tries

549
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: to protect themselves from him and then he just can't

550
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: handle that.

551
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 4: Yes, he was wearing a leather jacket. I remember it

552
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 4: as because he took it off and try to throw

553
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 4: the jacket at my.

554
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: Direction in front of all those people.

555
00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 4: Yes, I avoided it, but I think there was like

556
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 4: a metal button or something.

557
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 3: I felt it on my shoulder and I was in

558
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 3: shocked because growing up, my dad never laid a finger

559
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 3: on me, and I was so proud of it, and

560
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 3: at that moment, I just have like a cognitive dissonance

561
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 3: or something else. Is this a dream that I just

562
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 3: need to wake up from? And he was trying to

563
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 3: throw a cup at me, and I was like, I'm

564
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 3: gonna leave, and he sheltered at me in front of everyone.

565
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 3: This sentence said, I don't think I'll ever forget in

566
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 3: my life. He said, if I could have taken your

567
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 3: life back, I would, But the way he put it,

568
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 3: he was like, if I could have taken your life back,

569
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 3: because he gave me the life, he would have done that.

570
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 2: It raised you from the book.

571
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 3: Even right now when I talk about it, my heart

572
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 3: is racing.

573
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 2: Vanessa. I don't know if you realize how much strength

574
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 2: and courage you have to be able to walk away

575
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 2: from that kind of pre planned manipulation, harassment, bullying. You

576
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 2: have all these people surrounding you telling you to do something,

577
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 2: pressuring you, yelling at you, and just reassuring it will

578
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 2: be fine. You know we love you. It is so

579
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 2: so difficult not to just fine, fine. I'll just hope

580
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 2: for the best. But I can't take it. It's impressive

581
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 2: to me that you were able to, despite all that pressure,

582
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 2: realize I'm in danger here in many different kinds of ways,

583
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 2: and I have to leave, and to leave with those

584
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 2: kind of stakes on the table, knowing that that might

585
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 2: cost you in other ways. Dearly, you did the right

586
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 2: thing for you, and I don't know if you appreciate

587
00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 2: how brave that is.

588
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 3: Thank you. This is my second time telling this story,

589
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 3: and I'm very proud that I did not become mass

590
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 3: and cry so much because last time it took me

591
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 3: among scene survey session to really piece this whole thing together.

592
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: Why would it be a problem if you cried? Guy

593
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: was saying how brave this was and how much courage

594
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: that took, because it was really devastating what happened to you.

595
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: And you're saying, I'm glad that I didn't cry when

596
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 1: I was telling you about this, But it's such a

597
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: sad story, and you must feel so sad, and so

598
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: how does that serve you not to cry when something

599
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 1: is truly sad?

600
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 3: To be honest, like after that instance, I went back

601
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 3: to my apartment and I feel like I must be

602
00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 3: lying not on my bad for hours and just crying

603
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 3: because I thought I lost my dad and I think

604
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 3: I lost a dad that I thought I had for

605
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 3: the whole time. And that evening my dad called me.

606
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 3: I thought he wanted to apologize for what happened, but

607
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 3: then it was all about pushing me to sign that loan.

608
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 3: And then in that conversation he hanged out the call

609
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 3: with this sentence saying his tone was extremely harsh. He

610
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 3: was like, I'm not your dad anymore. You're not my

611
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 3: daughter anymore. We're just strangers. Now. Don't ever call me

612
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 3: or let me see you. In my sight, just disappear

613
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 3: from this world. You mean nothing to me. And I

614
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 3: just remember after that call he hung up and I

615
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 3: just curl into a ball and start to cry for

616
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 3: I don't even know how long, because that was the

617
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 3: moment I felt like, oh my god, I lost him

618
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 3: in my life. And then like his group of people

619
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 3: would just start to randomly knock it on my door

620
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 3: in my apartment building, randomly calling me to talk about this,

621
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 3: try to push me into signing, and I was like, no,

622
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:22,399
Speaker 3: I don't want to do that. And during this whole time,

623
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 3: my dad did not show up say a word, but

624
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 3: I know it was him behind all this. So I

625
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,399
Speaker 3: got really scared because people would show up in front

626
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,800
Speaker 3: of my apartment and I moved it to a different

627
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 3: apartment but still in the same city, so they try

628
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 3: to track me down. My dad would track to my

629
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 3: friend and ask them where I am, because my friend

630
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 3: would tell me, hey, your dad called me, and I

631
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 3: just became extremely insecure. I had a panic attack in public.

632
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 3: I was in like a foot court by myself and

633
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 3: I couldn't breathe, and I start crying like crazy, and

634
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 3: I was like, Okay, I need to leave. So I

635
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 3: packed up and moved across the country and now no

636
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 3: one knows where I am. But I still get nightmares

637
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 3: and extremely already that someone just show up in my

638
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 3: apartment door again.

639
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: Have you tried to explain to your mom, who, of

640
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:34,760
Speaker 1: all people, would probably understand the bullying that your dad does.

641
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: Have you tried to explain to her what actually happened?

642
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 1: And what about your aunt, your cousins, or your siblings.

643
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 3: I try to spoke to my mom once because I

644
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 3: was going back to my parents' house to pack up

645
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 3: a few things while was trying to move.

646
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 1: And was your dad home when you went there?

647
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 4: No.

648
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 3: I pick a time that I knew he wasn't going

649
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 3: to be home, and I ran into my grandma and

650
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 3: my and they were just like, why are you so selfish.

651
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 3: Why aren't you not helping your dad with his money needs?

652
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 3: You know, you're a part of the family. And I

653
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,439
Speaker 3: was like, do you know what happened? And they were

654
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 3: just like, yeah, of course your dad told us everything.

655
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 3: You refused to help him.

656
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: But did you tell your side of the story.

657
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 3: I said that he was not nice to me and

658
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 3: he was even try to be violent with me in public,

659
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 3: and they dismissed it immediately. For my siblings, I've been

660
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 3: in contact with them once and they did not agree

661
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,800
Speaker 3: with what I did. But in my opinion, I think

662
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 3: they are not in a good financial place either. They're

663
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 3: still relatively dependent to my dad financially.

664
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 1: So your father helps financially with those siblings, yes, and

665
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 1: they live at home.

666
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:00,800
Speaker 2: But I say, you said that this is the second

667
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 2: time you're telling this story. It was in the therapy

668
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 2: you did immediately after and now, and I'm curious about friends.

669
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 2: You have friends that don't know this story. Why not

670
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 2: share with your friends what you went through and what

671
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 2: you're going through because this is so severe and it's

672
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 2: so difficult, and why not share that with any friends

673
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 2: to get some support.

674
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 3: Because after this happened, I was googling like a maniac,

675
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,720
Speaker 3: trying to understand if this ever happened to anyone else.

676
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 3: But I did not come across a story that's similar

677
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 3: to mine, and I don't want to be the emotional

678
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,439
Speaker 3: burden for my friends. The issue I go to them

679
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 3: with are like normal problems, like, for example, oh, you're sick,

680
00:38:57,840 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 3: not feeling well.

681
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,359
Speaker 2: But if ever any one needed support from friends, it's

682
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 2: when their entire family turns against them. I can tell

683
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,399
Speaker 2: you I know several places like this. It's not that rare,

684
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 2: But you do not want to burden your friends at

685
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 2: the time of your greatest need. Why didn't this qualify

686
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 2: as an unusually extreme event that requires that friends be

687
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 2: there for you, that someone be there for you.

688
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 3: The main reason I don't want to burther them, and

689
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 3: the other reason is that I don't know what kind

690
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 3: of emotion I should be experienced, to be honest, because

691
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 3: I'm literally going through an emotional roller coaster and I'm

692
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 3: trying to understand it on a daily basis.

693
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 1: Still, I'm thinking about the parallel between the way that

694
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,799
Speaker 1: you're not telling anyone about this and the way that

695
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 1: your mom didn't want to talk to you after you

696
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: knew the extent of what was really happening to her

697
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 1: and the shame that she felt. I think that you

698
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 1: feel the same amount of shame, even though you feel

699
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 1: confident that you made a decision to protect yourself, that

700
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 1: your family gave you so many messages of your bad

701
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 1: You're selfish, You're not deserving of being my daughter, what's

702
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 1: wrong with you? They think that some of that shame

703
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: has been internalized by you, that that also prevents you

704
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: from telling people that somehow they might judge you or

705
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 1: think that you were not generous enough. And also the

706
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 1: shame of having a family like that, just the shame

707
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: of having a father who would disown you for not

708
00:40:58,040 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: putting yourself at risk.

709
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 3: Yes, I agree with you. The hardest part for me, Oh,

710
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 3: my friends know how amazing my dad is. That's the problem.

711
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 3: Like some of my friend's parents thought I grew up

712
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 3: with a single parent, because all I talked about was

713
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 3: how amazing my dad was.

714
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: What are the things he did that were amazing other

715
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 1: than not hitting you.

716
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 3: My dad never checked my homework because he trusted me.

717
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 3: There was one time I remember I was really little.

718
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 3: I put my backpack to my parents and I said, Hey,

719
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 3: do you want to look into what I have in

720
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:42,959
Speaker 3: my backpack, because that's what a lot of parents did

721
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 3: to my friends. Because that was like not trusting then,

722
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 3: and so I asked my parents to do that for me.

723
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 3: I was like, hey, check what I have in my

724
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,439
Speaker 3: backpack and then they was like, oh, no, no need.

725
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 2: But again something they didn't do, not something they did do.

726
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 3: Yes, Now I think about it, a lot of things

727
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 3: I praised my dad for was more like he gave

728
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 3: me the independence to do something, or I did all

729
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 3: this by myself because he trusted me.

730
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 2: The shame, I think, is one thing that really stops you.

731
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 2: I think the other thing that stops you from talking

732
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 2: to friends is that when everyone who's supposed to care

733
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 2: about you is telling you how wrong you are, how

734
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 2: disloyal and selfish you are for not doing that, it

735
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 2: really makes you distrust your own judgment and your own

736
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 2: sense of what's real. You're like, no, I'm risking my future,

737
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,359
Speaker 2: and they're saying, no, it's such a small procedural thing.

738
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 2: Why are you making a fuss? And I think that

739
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 2: you had so much of that pressure from practically everyone

740
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 2: that you don't trust, that you're not making a fuss.

741
00:42:56,280 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 2: That you don't trust that your judgment was sound. You're

742
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:04,800
Speaker 2: questioning whether, well, maybe I'm the selfish daughter who should

743
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 2: have done it. And even if you're not questioning it,

744
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:11,479
Speaker 2: you're worried that somebody else, like a friend, might join

745
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 2: that chorus of people telling you how wrong you are

746
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 2: and how much you failed your parents, rather than vice versa.

747
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:23,800
Speaker 2: And that's the value of talking with friends and presenting

748
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 2: them with your side of the story, because the fact

749
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 2: that it would be shocking to them that this hero

750
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 2: turned out to do this It is exactly the point,

751
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 2: because that's how shocking it was for you and still is.

752
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 3: I just don't know, Like, if I cannot connect the

753
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 3: dots together in the story, then how can anyone else

754
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 3: do it?

755
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:48,439
Speaker 1: I think you do connect the dots, and I think

756
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: that's the part that's so hard, is that it's hard

757
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: to accept that that's where the dots lead. It's very

758
00:43:54,560 --> 00:44:01,280
Speaker 1: hard to accept that this did really happen in this way,

759
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:06,800
Speaker 1: and then I am left feeling very alone, feeling very misunderstood,

760
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:11,399
Speaker 1: feeling abandoned by my family. So you can connect the dots,

761
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: it's very painful to connect them. I'm wondering. You said

762
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: you moved across the country, so your friends are back

763
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 1: where your family lives. Is that right? Your friends growing up?

764
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,399
Speaker 3: I have some friends like the childhood friend.

765
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 1: What about other friends, like your friends from boarding school

766
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 1: or your friends from where you live now? Do they

767
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: know at least that you're not in contact with your

768
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: family or they don't know anything?

769
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 3: They don't know anything.

770
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 1: It's very hard to make friends when you're hiding such

771
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: a big secret about yourself. Even without going into the

772
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: details of the incident, the fact that you don't have

773
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:05,360
Speaker 1: content with your family is such a big omission. What

774
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,919
Speaker 1: are you worried will happen if they learn that you're

775
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 1: not in contact with your family, that your family basically

776
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: disowned you for not signing alone, that you didn't feel

777
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:18,399
Speaker 1: comfortable with.

778
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 3: I don't know, because even when they talk about their parents,

779
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 3: I try to.

780
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 4: Change the topic. Sometime they ask me how my parents

781
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:31,319
Speaker 4: are doing. I was like, oh, they're good, Vanessa, You're

782
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 4: already so alone. And the way that you get close

783
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 4: to people is by opening up to their experience and

784
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,280
Speaker 4: letting them open up to yours. So when you've changed

785
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 4: the topic, they may interpret that is she doesn't want

786
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 4: to get that close with me, and that leaves you

787
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 4: even lonelier when you could have all of these very

788
00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:00,879
Speaker 4: meaningful connections that you so desperate we need right now.

789
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 3: I know I think I'm craving family relationship.

790
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 2: The most right, but your instinct to maybe I need

791
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 2: to reconnect with them is the instinct to do what

792
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 2: Yomanda did, to snap her fingers and go didn't happen.

793
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 2: We're going to pretend that nothing ever happened. And the

794
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 2: only problem is that you might want to pretend that

795
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 2: nothing ever happened, but they will not because they're still angry.

796
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,919
Speaker 1: And guys, right, that's what your mom did every time

797
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 1: she would go back. There are terms to going back,

798
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: and the terms are you do what we demand and

799
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,720
Speaker 1: you pretend nothing happened, and your family won't pretend nothing

800
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 1: happened until they get you to sign that.

801
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 3: I totally agree with what you just said, and I'm

802
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 3: amazed how you can just see it within like the

803
00:46:57,719 --> 00:46:59,320
Speaker 3: amount of time we've been talking.

804
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 4: But it took me so long to realize that. To

805
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 4: be honest, I was just in shocked, disbelieve I'm grieving

806
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 4: that I've lost my family.

807
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 2: Yes, you're grieving alone, and that's it's the problem.

808
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: And you don't need to be grieving alone.

809
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,280
Speaker 3: I know, like grieving is not only when people are dying.

810
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 3: But my parents are still there, you know, if I

811
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 3: want to find them.

812
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 2: No, if you want to sign away that kind of money,

813
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 2: then they're there.

814
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:39,840
Speaker 3: And now I'm more afraid of trusting. I don't even

815
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 3: share where I live with people because I have this

816
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 3: nymer that they're going to find me and then push

817
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 3: me to do this, to sign the law or something

818
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 3: even more horrible. I just have this constant nymer that

819
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 3: I would wake up and then suddenly I'm back in

820
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 3: a dark room with my dad interrogating me and then

821
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 3: put me to sign a you know those like dramatic

822
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 3: crazy things. And I have a security camera in my apartment.

823
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 1: Now, let's talk about what you imagine would happen in

824
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 1: reality if your family found out where you are, so

825
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,759
Speaker 1: maybe they would keep trying to push you to sign

826
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 1: the papers, which you don't want to do. Is there

827
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,439
Speaker 1: something more you said and even worse, that your father

828
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 1: would be violent with you. Is that part of it?

829
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:28,760
Speaker 2: So you concerned for your safety? Literally?

830
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:35,439
Speaker 3: Still yes, because I saw my mom and I think

831
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:39,840
Speaker 3: money really changes people. And what My dad was my dad.

832
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 3: To my experience, he was nice, but then when this

833
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 3: whole thing get involved, I just feel like he became

834
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 3: a different person and was so money driven and he

835
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,320
Speaker 3: could do anything. He sent people to knock on my door,

836
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 3: non stuff. That's the reason why I move in the

837
00:48:56,360 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 3: first place. People would text me randomly and be like, Hey,

838
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 3: I'm gonna hunt you down where you live, and that's

839
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 3: why I had to move across the country.

840
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 1: You've lived in this new location for over a year now,

841
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 1: is that right?

842
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:09,879
Speaker 4: Yes?

843
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 1: Okay? And so your friends that you have in the

844
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 1: city that you're in do not know where you live.

845
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,359
Speaker 3: They know the area, but they don't know where I

846
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 3: live exactly.

847
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:24,319
Speaker 2: Are there any of those friends who are knew that

848
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 2: your parents don't know of or don't know how to

849
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 2: get in touch with it, because then.

850
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 1: You, yeah, my parents wouldn't know who they are with

851
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 1: your existing friends that do know your parents, if they

852
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:38,799
Speaker 1: did know the story and they did know that you

853
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 1: fear for your safety. Do you think that you could

854
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: trust them not to tell your parents where you are.

855
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 3: I trust them not to tell my parents where I live.

856
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:52,799
Speaker 3: But I think because they really care about me, they

857
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 3: would want to fix my relationship between me and my dad.

858
00:49:57,520 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 3: So they might reach out to my.

859
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: Dad against your wishes.

860
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, because they would think they're doing the right thing

861
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:07,280
Speaker 4: for me like I did for my mom.

862
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 2: You might not need to trust them with your location,

863
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 2: but are any of those people close enough you can

864
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 2: trust them with the story?

865
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 3: I think there would be war two.

866
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 2: Okay.

867
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 1: I keep thinking about you googling trying to find a

868
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:30,839
Speaker 1: story like yours, and there are so many of them.

869
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 1: You might not have seen people post about them, but

870
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:36,399
Speaker 1: there are so many stories like this.

871
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:39,359
Speaker 3: Am I the crazy one?

872
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 1: That's what I was going to ask, is what was

873
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:44,800
Speaker 1: the real question you were asking by doing this search?

874
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 1: That's the question that I think you're asking, is am

875
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 1: I the crazy one? And I think that that's so

876
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 1: important because your parents, in a weird way, warned you

877
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 1: don't trust us, and so you don't know who you

878
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,719
Speaker 1: can trust. And what's so courageous, as guy said, and

879
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: we want you to hold onto this is the fact

880
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 1: that you trust in every fiber of your being and

881
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 1: every cell in your body. You know how much danger

882
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: you would put yourself in if you signed those papers,

883
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 1: that that would affect you for the rest of your life.

884
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,320
Speaker 1: We want you to keep trusting that place in yourself

885
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 1: where you can find yourself, because that's where you truly are.

886
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,320
Speaker 1: And instead of googling to say did this happen to

887
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 1: other people? Because I need to find out if I'm crazy,

888
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:38,319
Speaker 1: we want you to trust the part of you that

889
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 1: knows that you are not crazy, that what your family

890
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 1: has done that is what has been done to you,

891
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 1: not something that you have done to them. They have

892
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 1: acted in ways that have made you scared for your

893
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 1: very livelihood in the literal sense and also in the

894
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:57,759
Speaker 1: financial sense. And now the question is are you going

895
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 1: to sit with all this by yourself or are you

896
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 1: going to do the kind of grieving that you need

897
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 1: to do. Are you going to find the surrogate family

898
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 1: that you can trust? But you're going to need to

899
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 1: trust yourself in order to take the steps to do that.

900
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 2: And Vanessa, the surrogate family that Lauri mentioned, which is

901
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 2: so so important, doesn't get constructed in a day. It

902
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:29,359
Speaker 2: is a process. You do a layer at a time

903
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:34,840
Speaker 2: and check and verify a layer at a time. Because

904
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 2: you've been terrorized, essentially, and you're terrified, even if you're

905
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 2: not in touch with that all the time you have

906
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 2: monitors in your home, you're afraid to tell anyone where

907
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 2: you live. That's witness relocation stuff.

908
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:53,839
Speaker 1: You have dreams about this.

909
00:52:55,000 --> 00:53:00,319
Speaker 2: You're traumatized, and you're terrorized, and you need, though to

910
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 2: start working on that surrogate family, one step, small step

911
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 2: at a time. You know through processing, you know through grieving,

912
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 2: by a long shot, there's work to be done to

913
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 2: recover and to rehabilitate your life.

914
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 3: Am I too slow in the process? At first I

915
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 3: thought I was over it, and then the holiday season

916
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:25,840
Speaker 3: came around.

917
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 1: Vanessa, you just went off into blaming yourself for something,

918
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 1: like something's wrong with you. How did you take in

919
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:38,160
Speaker 1: what Guy said about creating this surrogate family, about learning

920
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:40,320
Speaker 1: to trust people, but doing it in a very cautious,

921
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 1: careful way.

922
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 3: The idea of like surrogate family was so new to

923
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 3: me in therapy. That was my first time doing therapy too.

924
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 3: After this incident, I was like, Oh, I'm never going

925
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:57,360
Speaker 3: to have families anymore. I lost my parents, my sibling,

926
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 3: my relatives, my grandparents one and the therapist told me

927
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 3: that family doesn't have to be blood related, they can

928
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 3: be chosen. But in reality, I have not been able

929
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 3: to put that into practice, because I'm really scared. I

930
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 3: trust my friend still, but I'm not telling them the story.

931
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:34,440
Speaker 3: But what if she's doing the same thing to me?

932
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:38,360
Speaker 2: What if the people you thought loved you turn against

933
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 2: you for their unselfish reasons.

934
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think I can take another one anymore.

935
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 2: That's why we're using the words slowly, cautiously, step layer.

936
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 2: That's very important because of those fears, which, given what

937
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:57,719
Speaker 2: you've been through, a warranted.

938
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:03,280
Speaker 1: You've never actually had a family where you could trust

939
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:07,759
Speaker 1: that they would act lovingly toward you that was not

940
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 1: in a conditional way. If I do the things that

941
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 1: they want, if I perform the way that they want,

942
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 1: if I make them proud, they will treat me well.

943
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 1: They won't treat each other well, but they'll treat me well.

944
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 1: That's not family. So you grew up with a very

945
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 1: warped definition of family. Yeah, I'm there to save them,

946
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 1: but they're not there to ask me how I'm feeling

947
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 1: about any of this. They're not there to take care

948
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 1: of me and see what it's like to be a

949
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:42,439
Speaker 1: child who has to deal with domestic violence and these

950
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 1: kinds of calls that are way above my ability to

951
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 1: deal with and not my responsibility. So as you're forming

952
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:55,359
Speaker 1: a surrogate family, you will start to learn what the

953
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:57,839
Speaker 1: true definition of family is and it does not have

954
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 1: to be your blood relatives. What does it mean to

955
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 1: be family? And are these people that I'm testing the

956
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:07,200
Speaker 1: waters with people who are worthy of being part of

957
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:07,760
Speaker 1: my family.

958
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:13,400
Speaker 3: I just wanted someone to spend holidays with, you know,

959
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:15,880
Speaker 3: I don't want to be alone and scared.

960
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 1: Vanessa. We think you want more than just someone to

961
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 1: spend holidays with.

962
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I want someone to care about me, like you

963
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:30,360
Speaker 4: can talk about this thing and anything that I am

964
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 4: having a hard time with.

965
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 3: But also I will do the same thing for them,

966
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:38,840
Speaker 3: Like yes, I wanted to await communication, Carrie.

967
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:40,879
Speaker 1: And you've never had that in the way that you've

968
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 1: needed it. So, Vanessa, we're really moved by what has

969
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:55,280
Speaker 1: happened with you and your family, and we have several

970
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:58,839
Speaker 1: pieces of advice for you. The first one is we

971
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:03,279
Speaker 1: were talking about what it would mean to create a

972
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:09,560
Speaker 1: family for yourself so that you aren't alone. And we're

973
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 1: very aware that you don't know how to trust right

974
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 1: now because you haven't been around people who have taught

975
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 1: you what trust looks like. So we want you to

976
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 1: take this very slowly, and we want you to do

977
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 1: one thing this week. We would like you to ask

978
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 1: one of your friends who does not know your parents,

979
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 1: to coffee, and in the conversation when people say how

980
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:39,200
Speaker 1: are you doing? How is your week, that you answer

981
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 1: honestly with just a little bit of information and you say,

982
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 1: you know, actually, I'm having a really hard week. And

983
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 1: I haven't told you this before because I don't really

984
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 1: talk about this yet. I'm just kind of coming to

985
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:56,920
Speaker 1: terms with it myself. But I am strange for my

986
00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 1: parents right now because they ask me to do something

987
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:05,479
Speaker 1: that would put me in financial jeopardy for the long

988
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:08,680
Speaker 1: term and I couldn't agree to that, and they have

989
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 1: estranged themselves from me, and that's been really hard. That's

990
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 1: the only information that you really need to say at

991
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 1: this point. We just want you to see what it's

992
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 1: like to tell somebody that, to be honest about what

993
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 1: you're actually experiencing, and then to see how this person

994
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:34,240
Speaker 1: responds to you. That's where the trust piece comes in.

995
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 2: And what you want to look for in that response

996
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:41,960
Speaker 2: is they might be curious and say, oh, well it happened,

997
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 2: tell me more. You could say I don't really want

998
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 2: to get into the details. This is still very raw

999
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 2: for me. But what would be good, for example, is

1000
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 2: if at some point in that conversation later on, they

1001
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 2: shared something with you that they hadn't said before that

1002
00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 2: was a little emotionally vulnerable. Also, because that's what you're doing,

1003
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:03,640
Speaker 2: allowing some emotional vulnerability, that would be nice if they

1004
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:06,400
Speaker 2: followed up the next time you saw them, or with

1005
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 2: the text in between saying hey, just thinking about you,

1006
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 2: how are you doing? Or the next time you saw

1007
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 2: them anything new going on there? That sounded so difficult

1008
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 2: because that's what you would want from a friend. And

1009
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:20,440
Speaker 2: this is how you test the waters. You allow some

1010
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 2: vulnerability with someone. You hope that they do the same

1011
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 2: because that shows the trusting you. And you do this

1012
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 2: very slowly, you get to know them a little bit

1013
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:29,080
Speaker 2: more and vice versa.

1014
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:33,040
Speaker 1: And when you say I'm not really ready to share more,

1015
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 1: you want to make sure that your tone isn't such

1016
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:38,360
Speaker 1: that they feel like I can never talk about this

1017
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 1: again with her, that you're not shutting the door. You're saying,

1018
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 1: I really appreciate that, I know you're curious. I'm just

1019
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:48,920
Speaker 1: not ready. I will share more when I'm ready, but

1020
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:53,880
Speaker 1: thank you so much for your concern. They might say,

1021
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:56,000
Speaker 1: is there anything I can do for you? Or that

1022
00:59:56,080 --> 01:00:00,280
Speaker 1: sounds really hard? Or thank you for telling me. For

1023
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 1: empathy from them, you could just be one statement because

1024
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:05,320
Speaker 1: you're not really giving them a lot to go on here, and.

1025
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:07,560
Speaker 2: It could be nonverbal. Do they look distressed and look

1026
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 2: worried for you?

1027
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 1: So those are the things to look for. And along

1028
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 1: those lines, we have an exercise that we would like

1029
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 1: you to do on your own, which is we would

1030
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:22,360
Speaker 1: like you to define for yourself what family should be.

1031
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:25,160
Speaker 1: We want you to write down a list of these

1032
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:28,960
Speaker 1: are the qualities that a person that I would like

1033
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:32,400
Speaker 1: to be in a family with would have, And you're

1034
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 1: going to use that as your barometer as you are

1035
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 1: testing the waters with people. Does this person meet my

1036
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 1: definition of family? So you're taking these little tiny steps

1037
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:47,080
Speaker 1: and every time you check back to this list, does

1038
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:50,600
Speaker 1: this person meet these qualifications? And if not, oh, maybe

1039
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 1: I'm not going to really invite them into my family.

1040
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:54,840
Speaker 1: Oh but this person does. Oh, that's a person I'm

1041
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 1: going to invite a little bit more into my family.

1042
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 1: And we'd like you to get very specific about what

1043
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:06,080
Speaker 1: does family mean? How do they support, how do they care?

1044
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 1: How did they show their love for me? How do

1045
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:15,000
Speaker 1: they show up? How do they hold my boundaries? We

1046
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:18,520
Speaker 1: want to know what it felt like for you to

1047
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:21,480
Speaker 1: make this list and to see the gap between what

1048
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 1: a family should be like and what your family has

1049
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:24,800
Speaker 1: been like.

1050
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:28,720
Speaker 2: A quick question, are you still in therapy with that therapist?

1051
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:30,480
Speaker 4: Not anymore?

1052
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:34,680
Speaker 2: We would like you very much to find a therapist,

1053
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:37,920
Speaker 2: hopefully someone local, because you have a lot of grief

1054
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:41,360
Speaker 2: work to do and you need to do that with

1055
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:45,040
Speaker 2: a therapist, and specifically, you need to do a lot

1056
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 2: of revising of your previous perceptions of who your family is,

1057
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:56,000
Speaker 2: who your dad is, who your mom is, because Laurie

1058
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:58,600
Speaker 2: and I both think your dad didn't change that much.

1059
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:01,680
Speaker 2: It was always condition But you were always so good.

1060
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:03,480
Speaker 2: Here you can check my bag. Don't have to wait

1061
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:05,600
Speaker 2: for you to ask. You were always so good. You

1062
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:08,880
Speaker 2: never encountered the one who's hitting your mum, the one

1063
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:11,160
Speaker 2: who can put you on the spot like that and

1064
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 2: terrorize you like that. But he's been that person all along.

1065
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:18,040
Speaker 2: So there's a lot of revising that has to be

1066
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 2: done in terms of who they are and what your

1067
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 2: history is with them, really and that's the grief work,

1068
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:29,320
Speaker 2: because it's very upsetting to go back and revise and realize, yes,

1069
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 2: I've lost the idealized version. It never existed, but now

1070
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 2: I've lost even who they actually are. I don't have

1071
01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:38,040
Speaker 2: because this is something you can bring to the therapist,

1072
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:40,760
Speaker 2: and as a part of that, we'd like you to

1073
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 2: write the story of what happened to you from your

1074
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:48,880
Speaker 2: point of view, using only what you know to be true,

1075
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:53,320
Speaker 2: literally your experience of what this was like from the

1076
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:55,439
Speaker 2: minute your dad shows up at your door and tells

1077
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,560
Speaker 2: you how amazing you are and how great the relationship

1078
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:02,120
Speaker 2: is and how much he loves you till today fearing

1079
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:05,000
Speaker 2: for your safety from your own family because you refuse

1080
01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:08,480
Speaker 2: to put yourself in financial jeopardy. When you tell the story,

1081
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:11,600
Speaker 2: it's still not sharp enough from your point of view.

1082
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:13,960
Speaker 2: You keep saying, he asked me to sign something, which

1083
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:16,080
Speaker 2: is completely not the case. He asks you to take

1084
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:18,840
Speaker 2: out the loan in your name and give him the money.

1085
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:22,040
Speaker 2: That sounds very different than he asked me to sign something.

1086
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:25,960
Speaker 2: That's their rendition. It's just a signature no take it

1087
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:27,720
Speaker 2: alone in my name that I will never be able

1088
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 2: to repay, and give you all that money sounds much

1089
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:33,320
Speaker 2: clearer in terms of what was happening. We want you

1090
01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 2: to write that story because you need to have a

1091
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:39,600
Speaker 2: very clear idea of the true narrative after all the

1092
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:43,240
Speaker 2: gaslighting that went on, and that you can bring to

1093
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:43,800
Speaker 2: the therapy.

1094
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:46,040
Speaker 1: And part of that story and part of the grieving

1095
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:49,960
Speaker 1: is that you didn't really have the opportunity to be

1096
01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:53,400
Speaker 1: the child that you were. Your mom would call you

1097
01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:56,120
Speaker 1: with all of these very adult issues that were happening,

1098
01:03:56,920 --> 01:03:59,440
Speaker 1: and then she would alarm you and then tell you

1099
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:03,920
Speaker 1: not to be alone, which was very confusing. And this

1100
01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:06,920
Speaker 1: responsibility from all of your family telling you that as

1101
01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:09,040
Speaker 1: the oldest child that you had to take care of

1102
01:04:09,080 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 1: everybody and solve all the family's problems. You missed out

1103
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:17,040
Speaker 1: on a lot. We want the accurate version of the

1104
01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 1: story to be there on paper as a starting point

1105
01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:21,480
Speaker 1: for the grief work that you need to do. This

1106
01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:24,760
Speaker 1: does not mean that your parents are all bad. This

1107
01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:28,680
Speaker 1: means that your parents are deeply flawed, and you need

1108
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:32,160
Speaker 1: to be able to separate out the fact that the

1109
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:36,600
Speaker 1: ways in which they're deeply flawed have affected you to

1110
01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:40,400
Speaker 1: the point that you're scared for your own life.

1111
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:42,200
Speaker 2: So how does this sound to you.

1112
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:46,080
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm just enlightened.

1113
01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:52,760
Speaker 4: I thought that was well family men, So I'm really

1114
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:55,360
Speaker 4: grateful for the direction.

1115
01:04:55,960 --> 01:05:00,320
Speaker 1: We think that this is the starting point that will

1116
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:04,040
Speaker 1: help you get much more clarity on how you eventually

1117
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:07,680
Speaker 1: want to handle things with your family. But until you

1118
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 1: have more clarity and trust within yourself and you have

1119
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:15,120
Speaker 1: more support around you, you won't get that clarity. And

1120
01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:18,360
Speaker 1: if you do this work, you will have people to

1121
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 1: spend the holidays with that you actually want to spend

1122
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:22,840
Speaker 1: the holidays with, who feel like family to you.

1123
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:27,080
Speaker 2: So we really look forward to hearing from you and

1124
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:28,960
Speaker 2: learning how this week goes for you.

1125
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:31,160
Speaker 3: Thank you, I'm excited.

1126
01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:32,640
Speaker 1: We're excited for you. To Vanessa.

1127
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:41,920
Speaker 2: One thing that really impressed me about Vanessa is that

1128
01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:44,920
Speaker 2: it's hard enough to hold onto your truth when someone

1129
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:48,160
Speaker 2: gaslights you, but in this case, it was her entire

1130
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:52,840
Speaker 2: family gaslighting her, and yet remarkably she was able to

1131
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:56,120
Speaker 2: hold on to her truth. She was vacillating a bit,

1132
01:05:56,240 --> 01:06:00,240
Speaker 2: but fundamentally she was able to hold onto that. That

1133
01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:02,120
Speaker 2: takes so much strength. It's really remarkable.

1134
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:05,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that that's why it's so important

1135
01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:07,160
Speaker 1: for her to write down the story from her point

1136
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:11,600
Speaker 1: of view because she keeps toggling between fear and denial,

1137
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 1: and I think what she really sees the story on paper,

1138
01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:17,480
Speaker 1: she can then hold on to her truth more easily.

1139
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:20,760
Speaker 2: And for that same reason, it's so important for her

1140
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:24,440
Speaker 2: to redefine what family is and what it means to her,

1141
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 2: because she really has to know what it is she's

1142
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:31,400
Speaker 2: seeking and what it is she's not getting from her

1143
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:34,280
Speaker 2: family of origin. So that'll be a really important exercise.

1144
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:37,520
Speaker 1: I know we both had so much compassion for her.

1145
01:06:37,640 --> 01:06:40,840
Speaker 1: She's in such a difficult situation. And while this might

1146
01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:45,520
Speaker 1: sound extreme, I think anybody who's had their family tell

1147
01:06:45,560 --> 01:06:49,040
Speaker 1: them that what they're feeling, or thinking or believing is

1148
01:06:49,080 --> 01:06:52,680
Speaker 1: not okay can relate to what she's going through.

1149
01:06:58,080 --> 01:07:15,120
Speaker 2: You listening to deotherapists back after a short break, So Laurie,

1150
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:18,880
Speaker 2: we heard from Vanessa. I'm very curious to hear how

1151
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:20,720
Speaker 2: this week went for her and how she did with

1152
01:07:20,760 --> 01:07:22,840
Speaker 2: the assignments. So let's take a listener.

1153
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:26,320
Speaker 4: I just want to give you an update on the

1154
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:31,120
Speaker 4: assignments you gave me last week. The first thing was

1155
01:07:31,240 --> 01:07:35,400
Speaker 4: to meet with my friend and tell them I having

1156
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:42,120
Speaker 4: some issues with my family. I actually wasn't able to

1157
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:47,640
Speaker 4: meet my friend because of errands and weather, so instead

1158
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:54,320
Speaker 4: I call someone on Sunday evening and I told her

1159
01:07:54,600 --> 01:08:00,040
Speaker 4: that actually, my past week wasn't that easy because I

1160
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:07,000
Speaker 4: I had some family issues and I am still processing

1161
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:13,240
Speaker 4: it myself, so I cannot really tell her anything specific

1162
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:15,880
Speaker 4: until I have sorted it out.

1163
01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:19,680
Speaker 3: And then, because it was a call and it was

1164
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:24,760
Speaker 3: late at night, she asked me if she wanted me

1165
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:28,640
Speaker 3: to have her drive over so she can keep me

1166
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:36,599
Speaker 3: a company. And I was really surprised and touched by

1167
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:44,400
Speaker 3: her question because I didn't expect that kind of response,

1168
01:08:45,560 --> 01:08:51,800
Speaker 3: especially I did not say anything besides I had a

1169
01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:54,920
Speaker 3: bad week because of some family issue.

1170
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:59,439
Speaker 4: I think this is going to the right direction for me.

1171
01:09:00,400 --> 01:09:06,200
Speaker 4: I hope to continue this relationship and hopefully I can

1172
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:11,719
Speaker 4: actually have her over at my place sometimes. The second

1173
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:15,760
Speaker 4: thing on the to do list is to find a therapist,

1174
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:20,679
Speaker 4: so I am working with my insurance to find someone.

1175
01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:26,280
Speaker 4: At the moment, I'm probably gonna speak to a professional

1176
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 4: in a week or two. And as for the letter,

1177
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:37,360
Speaker 4: so the first draft I wrote was still very scattered,

1178
01:09:38,160 --> 01:09:41,559
Speaker 4: trying to piece everything together in my own voice.

1179
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:42,599
Speaker 3: But I feel so.

1180
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:49,679
Speaker 4: Surreal for me still, so I think I'm gonna try

1181
01:09:49,720 --> 01:09:55,639
Speaker 4: to write the letter from a third person perspective, so

1182
01:09:55,840 --> 01:10:00,920
Speaker 4: I'm no longer I in the story or my dad.

1183
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:06,519
Speaker 4: It will be Vanessa and Vanessa's dad, so I can

1184
01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:12,439
Speaker 4: see things more clearly. Because what really shocked me was

1185
01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:18,599
Speaker 4: how you thought my dad was always this way, but

1186
01:10:18,720 --> 01:10:26,240
Speaker 4: I just choose to not see him in that way.

1187
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:29,280
Speaker 4: So I want to be able to write my story

1188
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:33,519
Speaker 4: from a third person point of view, first to see

1189
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:42,559
Speaker 4: if I can have an objective storyline, and last, not least,

1190
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:46,479
Speaker 4: it's the meaning of family. So I just wrote down

1191
01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:53,200
Speaker 4: some aspects. Families are supposed to be uplifting and hopeful

1192
01:10:53,280 --> 01:10:58,000
Speaker 4: for each other, and I hope my family can embrace

1193
01:10:58,080 --> 01:11:02,439
Speaker 4: me for being me, and we can get through difficult

1194
01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:08,360
Speaker 4: times together, celebrate the happy times together, of course, and

1195
01:11:10,200 --> 01:11:16,800
Speaker 4: just provide mental support through the good the bad. And

1196
01:11:17,280 --> 01:11:23,040
Speaker 4: most importantly, I can be myself when I'm around them.

1197
01:11:24,000 --> 01:11:29,960
Speaker 4: I don't have to behaving a certain way or wear

1198
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:34,200
Speaker 4: a mask. I just want to say I'm really grateful

1199
01:11:34,320 --> 01:11:38,679
Speaker 4: for the opportunity to speak to you both. I really

1200
01:11:39,760 --> 01:11:47,400
Speaker 4: learned a lot about myself, my family, my childhood. It's

1201
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:52,200
Speaker 4: crazy how you learn something about me and my story

1202
01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:56,439
Speaker 4: so quickly, while it took me so long to realize

1203
01:11:56,720 --> 01:11:59,880
Speaker 4: there are a lot of things that I'm afraid of admitting,

1204
01:12:00,680 --> 01:12:06,400
Speaker 4: but somehow you just get it. Thank you, Thank you

1205
01:12:06,439 --> 01:12:06,760
Speaker 4: a lot.

1206
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:13,880
Speaker 1: I was so touched to hear how her friend responded

1207
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:18,400
Speaker 1: to her saying I'm having trouble. My week didn't go

1208
01:12:18,520 --> 01:12:24,559
Speaker 1: so well, and the offer to drive over late at

1209
01:12:24,680 --> 01:12:28,519
Speaker 1: night and spend time with her was something that was

1210
01:12:28,560 --> 01:12:32,160
Speaker 1: so new to Vanessa. And when we talk about the

1211
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:36,519
Speaker 1: other task of defining what family is, that's what family

1212
01:12:36,560 --> 01:12:37,040
Speaker 1: looks like.

1213
01:12:37,920 --> 01:12:40,920
Speaker 2: And I think it was new to Vanessa because what

1214
01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:46,360
Speaker 2: Vanessa did was new. She admitted a smidge of pain

1215
01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:49,599
Speaker 2: and vulnerability. It wasn't a great week. She couldn't say more,

1216
01:12:50,360 --> 01:12:52,400
Speaker 2: but she didn't have to say more. The fact that

1217
01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:54,519
Speaker 2: the friend was so willing to come over, I think

1218
01:12:54,640 --> 01:12:57,839
Speaker 2: means she's not used to hearing Vanessa say I'm struggling,

1219
01:12:57,880 --> 01:13:01,920
Speaker 2: and Vanessa has really been struggling. So to me, this

1220
01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:05,760
Speaker 2: was a great experiment of open a little bit of vulnerability.

1221
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:08,920
Speaker 2: See the response and if it's encouraging, then do more.

1222
01:13:09,360 --> 01:13:11,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think she's really learning what family is, or

1223
01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:14,360
Speaker 1: what family is supposed to be And I loved her

1224
01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:18,160
Speaker 1: definition of the meaning of family because part of that

1225
01:13:18,280 --> 01:13:20,679
Speaker 1: was exactly what the friend did. She said, they're supposed

1226
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:24,759
Speaker 1: to emotionally support you through the good and the bad,

1227
01:13:25,320 --> 01:13:30,519
Speaker 1: and that's exactly what she got when she was open

1228
01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:32,040
Speaker 1: with her friend and vulnerable.

1229
01:13:32,479 --> 01:13:35,240
Speaker 2: And that means, Vanessa, that family are people with whom

1230
01:13:35,400 --> 01:13:40,439
Speaker 2: you can feel comfortable being open and vulnerable, because my

1231
01:13:40,560 --> 01:13:43,599
Speaker 2: general sense with her is that this is still so raw,

1232
01:13:44,200 --> 01:13:47,240
Speaker 2: so unprocessed. She hasn't been able to talk about it

1233
01:13:47,760 --> 01:13:50,840
Speaker 2: with anyone, and so she's really in the initial stages

1234
01:13:51,479 --> 01:13:54,600
Speaker 2: of dealing with this, of grieving, of processing, of understanding,

1235
01:13:55,880 --> 01:13:58,479
Speaker 2: and that requires her to open up.

1236
01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:01,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she said part of her definition of family

1237
01:14:01,520 --> 01:14:03,840
Speaker 1: was that I can be myself when I'm around them,

1238
01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:06,519
Speaker 1: So she was dipping her toe in for the first time,

1239
01:14:06,920 --> 01:14:09,080
Speaker 1: but she was being her real self and she got

1240
01:14:09,280 --> 01:14:12,040
Speaker 1: such a warm, supportive reaction.

1241
01:14:13,360 --> 01:14:16,240
Speaker 2: I also really liked what she said about the narrative,

1242
01:14:16,320 --> 01:14:19,320
Speaker 2: that it was too difficult to write in the first person.

1243
01:14:19,720 --> 01:14:23,240
Speaker 2: So she actually used a psychological technique that we often recommend.

1244
01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:25,240
Speaker 2: It has a lot of research behind it, and that's

1245
01:14:25,280 --> 01:14:29,080
Speaker 2: called psychological distancing, and that is that you find a

1246
01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:33,920
Speaker 2: way to distance the emotions so it's less present and suffocating.

1247
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:37,000
Speaker 2: And you do that by literally using third person from

1248
01:14:37,040 --> 01:14:39,840
Speaker 2: first person. And that shift from first to third person

1249
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:43,439
Speaker 2: was enough to take down the distress level to make

1250
01:14:43,479 --> 01:14:45,760
Speaker 2: it workable rather than too much.

1251
01:14:46,280 --> 01:14:49,000
Speaker 1: And that's different from dissociating, So what she was doing

1252
01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:51,120
Speaker 1: was actually healthy. It was a way for her to

1253
01:14:51,439 --> 01:14:54,000
Speaker 1: go into a place that feels very dangerous, but in

1254
01:14:54,040 --> 01:14:56,639
Speaker 1: a way that feels safe. But she was going into

1255
01:14:56,680 --> 01:15:00,080
Speaker 1: the feelings. That's different from dissociating, where you're removing yourself

1256
01:15:00,360 --> 01:15:01,400
Speaker 1: from the feelings.

1257
01:15:01,800 --> 01:15:04,880
Speaker 2: And I hope nessa that once you finish that narrative

1258
01:15:04,880 --> 01:15:08,280
Speaker 2: and the third person still give yourself the task when

1259
01:15:08,320 --> 01:15:12,400
Speaker 2: you're ready to translate that into first person, that will

1260
01:15:12,439 --> 01:15:14,320
Speaker 2: be important to do at the point where you feel

1261
01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:14,880
Speaker 2: you can do it.

1262
01:15:15,520 --> 01:15:17,679
Speaker 1: And she also started the process of finding a therapist,

1263
01:15:17,760 --> 01:15:20,200
Speaker 1: which is going to be very important for her to

1264
01:15:20,800 --> 01:15:23,000
Speaker 1: have a place where she can really process all of

1265
01:15:23,040 --> 01:15:26,400
Speaker 1: these feelings and feel safe and comfortable. We give people

1266
01:15:26,439 --> 01:15:29,519
Speaker 1: a week normally to do our homework assignments, and our

1267
01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:31,840
Speaker 1: producer said that she turned this in within a few days,

1268
01:15:32,160 --> 01:15:34,960
Speaker 1: so she was really ready and she was so receptive

1269
01:15:35,360 --> 01:15:38,080
Speaker 1: and these were really really hard things to do in

1270
01:15:38,120 --> 01:15:41,320
Speaker 1: her situation. I so admire the fact that she was

1271
01:15:41,360 --> 01:15:42,679
Speaker 1: able to do this so quickly.

1272
01:15:43,160 --> 01:15:45,120
Speaker 2: I think another reason she got so much done this

1273
01:15:45,160 --> 01:15:48,280
Speaker 2: week because she has been waiting a full year to

1274
01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:51,479
Speaker 2: open up to talk about it with someone, and I

1275
01:15:51,479 --> 01:15:55,439
Speaker 2: think doing that got her to the starting line right.

1276
01:15:55,479 --> 01:15:57,320
Speaker 1: And what she said at the end about how we

1277
01:15:57,400 --> 01:16:01,120
Speaker 1: saw things that she hadn't seen before, I think really

1278
01:16:01,120 --> 01:16:04,439
Speaker 1: what happened was she felt heard for the very first time.

1279
01:16:04,479 --> 01:16:06,880
Speaker 1: I think there were things that she knew. We were

1280
01:16:06,920 --> 01:16:10,400
Speaker 1: able to create a space for her where she had

1281
01:16:10,439 --> 01:16:14,639
Speaker 1: been afraid to acknowledge certain things, and now they were

1282
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:17,800
Speaker 1: being talked about in an open way, and that's where

1283
01:16:17,800 --> 01:16:20,080
Speaker 1: we want her to get to. So I think this

1284
01:16:20,120 --> 01:16:23,600
Speaker 1: will be a journey for her as she heals, but

1285
01:16:23,640 --> 01:16:29,960
Speaker 1: I think she's definitely on the right path. Next week,

1286
01:16:30,200 --> 01:16:32,360
Speaker 1: a young married couple wants to learn how to stop

1287
01:16:32,400 --> 01:16:35,799
Speaker 1: their arguments from escalating into destructive screaming matches.

1288
01:16:36,120 --> 01:16:38,759
Speaker 5: My sister moved in with us, and there's been rules

1289
01:16:38,760 --> 01:16:40,480
Speaker 5: that need to be set in place for the household.

1290
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:44,200
Speaker 5: We've had certain disagreements and it always ends with arguments

1291
01:16:44,200 --> 01:16:45,559
Speaker 5: to where we don't even want to talk to each

1292
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:46,200
Speaker 5: other anymore.

1293
01:16:46,439 --> 01:16:49,320
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for

1294
01:16:49,360 --> 01:16:52,080
Speaker 1: free so you don't miss any episodes, and please help

1295
01:16:52,120 --> 01:16:54,840
Speaker 1: support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it and

1296
01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:58,439
Speaker 1: leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help

1297
01:16:58,479 --> 01:16:59,599
Speaker 1: people to find the show.

1298
01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:02,160
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1299
01:17:02,600 --> 01:17:08,120
Speaker 2: email us at Lauridguy at iHeartMedia dot com. Our executive

1300
01:17:08,160 --> 01:17:12,240
Speaker 2: producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh Fisher,

1301
01:17:12,560 --> 01:17:17,040
Speaker 2: additional editing support by Zachary Fisher and Katie Matty. Our

1302
01:17:17,080 --> 01:17:20,080
Speaker 2: intern is an Anna Doherty and special thanks to our

1303
01:17:20,120 --> 01:17:23,800
Speaker 2: podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric. We can't wait to see

1304
01:17:23,840 --> 01:17:27,360
Speaker 2: you at our next session. Deotherapist is a production of

1305
01:17:27,439 --> 01:17:28,639
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio

1306
01:17:34,560 --> 01:17:35,200
Speaker 4: Fish Food