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Speaker 1: Another episode of the podcast series America's Team, The Gambler

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Speaker 1: and His Cowboys the Netflix documentary. Half of this group

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Speaker 1: was actually in the documentary. Let me start with the

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Speaker 1: people who weren't Darren Woodson, who certainly should be in

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Speaker 1: the documentary and probably the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Well, no,

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Speaker 1: probably about that. Tim Callashaw, my colleague at the Dallas

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Speaker 1: Morning News, co beat writers of those great Cowboys teams,

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Speaker 1: and then Rick Goslin we inherited the beat responsibility from

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Speaker 1: he moved on at the Dallas Morning News to the NFL.

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Speaker 1: So Rick and I we were in it. Tim, You

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Speaker 1: sadly somehow were missed.

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Speaker 2: Well, now, technically Darren was in it. They didn't show highlights,

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Speaker 2: you know, so he was probably in it quite a bit.

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Speaker 2: Now I got to think of it. Sadly I was

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Speaker 2: missed it. I don't know if you were missed. You

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Speaker 2: two a couple of my bylines. That's what I looked for.

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Speaker 3: Me.

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Speaker 4: That's me right there.

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Speaker 5: I think you were generous enough give me a You

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Speaker 5: and I.

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Speaker 2: Were sitting in a press conference in the front row

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Speaker 2: at one of the things. You two had to be there.

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Speaker 2: The Orlando thing was huge. I was hoping I could

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Speaker 2: represent something Rick was also at. That was Jimmy's house

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Speaker 2: that night.

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Speaker 5: We're gonna get to We're gonna get to that.

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Speaker 2: I don't.

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Speaker 5: I don't think we just start with the breakup.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't. I don't think we got But.

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Speaker 1: So first of all, let me let's get your take

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Speaker 1: each of you. We'll start with Rick.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 5: As you watched the series, what was your big takeaway

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Speaker 5: from it?

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Speaker 4: I thought it was it was a it was a

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Speaker 4: good storytelling of the actual events, but I thought a

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Speaker 4: lot was left on the cutting room floor that insider

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Speaker 4: people would know. I was shocked that there was no

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Speaker 4: mention of Steve Walsh because that was a big part

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Speaker 4: of the Troy Aikman angst in that first year. And

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Speaker 4: there's a lot of things that left out. But you know,

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Speaker 4: eight parts, you could squeeze a lot in at that series.

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Speaker 2: Jim Yeah, I would say the same. I would say

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Speaker 2: the two million dollars check that was in Jimmy's pocket

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Speaker 2: when he left with Jerry was not mentioned. I might

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Speaker 2: have played that again. Not to put the cart for

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Speaker 2: the horse. They're covering thirty years of Jerry owning the team.

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Speaker 2: You've got three super Bowls, you got a one in

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Speaker 2: fifteen team, You've got a lot off the field, d

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Speaker 2: on the Marshal Walker trade, you got a lot of stuff. So,

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Speaker 2: I mean it was it certainly kept you going from

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Speaker 2: episode to episode.

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Speaker 3: So what was that locker room? What was that locker

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Speaker 3: room like? Because I wasn't there until nine till ninety two,

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Speaker 3: So when Jimmy came in in his first year, a

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Speaker 3: lot Landry's guys were there at the same time. What

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Speaker 3: at that What was that locker room like? You guys

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Speaker 3: are in there?

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Speaker 2: It was very you know, it didn't start out seeming

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Speaker 2: like it was going to be that strange because the

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Speaker 2: team went three and one in the preseason. It's like this,

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Speaker 2: they may be all right, these guys may haven't figured out.

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Speaker 2: And then his head knows that first game in New

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Speaker 2: Orleans twenty eight nothing and.

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Speaker 5: It was way worse than this.

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Speaker 1: What is the fan yell at Jimmy, The fans yelling

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Speaker 1: at Jimmy as he's walking off to the concourse toward

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Speaker 1: the locker room. Fan is yelling at Jimmy, Hey, Jimmy, Hey, Jimmy,

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Speaker 1: and Jimmy ignores the guy.

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Speaker 2: But Jimmy's bright ready so mad.

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Speaker 1: About the result on the field, how poorly they played. Finally,

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Speaker 1: this guy gets Jimmy's attention.

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Speaker 5: Jimmy looks up.

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Speaker 1: At him, and the guy goes a little different when

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Speaker 1: both teams are getting paid, isn't it National championship?

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Speaker 5: That did not make Jimmy's mood any better.

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Speaker 2: So, I mean, as the season went along, you can

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Speaker 2: imagine you played on some teams that weren't great. They

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Speaker 2: weren't one and fifteen. But Troy was. He was pleasant,

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Speaker 2: but he was you could tell he thought he had

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Speaker 2: fallen into a really difficult situation, not just the team,

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Speaker 2: but the Steve Wall stuff and and everything is going poorly.

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Speaker 2: And you had some veterans who knew they were kind

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Speaker 2: of on their last legs and weren't going to be

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Speaker 2: here long, and they took a little different view of

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Speaker 2: Jimmy and the whole thing, but certainly no sense that hey,

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Speaker 2: they're building something here. It's it's gonna be great. Dude.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I got there at the right time. I got

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Speaker 4: there in nineteen ninety, so I missed the fun fifteen season,

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Speaker 4: but I was there for the turnaround. And what was

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Speaker 4: great for me is the Cowboys weren't quote unquote America's

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Speaker 4: team then, So you didn't have everybody camp there, you

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Speaker 4: didn't have a million people. I was one of a

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Speaker 4: couple of people that were in the locker room, and

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Speaker 4: I got to know Aikman, Smith and Irvan before they

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Speaker 4: were the triplets. And I got to know all those guys,

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Speaker 4: you know, before fame and fortune came on their doorstep.

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Speaker 4: I left after the ninety one season. They figured, well,

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Speaker 4: you got in a far hole. Let two other guys

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Speaker 4: usher them to the championships.

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Speaker 2: Right, So I went to the NFL. You laid the foundation,

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Speaker 2: But how.

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Speaker 1: Did you go about as a beat writer creating relationships?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think I remember you'd be at Valley

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Speaker 1: Ranch for coffee at five o'clock in the morning.

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Speaker 2: In the morning, that's what you.

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Speaker 4: Used me. When I moved up here in nineteen ninety

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Speaker 4: I was living in an apartment right across the stree from

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Speaker 4: the complex, and I would get there at six in

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Speaker 4: the morning, and we had that little press room in

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Speaker 4: the back, and I was the only person there, and

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Speaker 4: everybody walked by and they'd see me, you know, Jimmy'd

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Speaker 4: stop in and Wantstadt and Michael Irvin, Aikman stopped by,

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Speaker 4: say hi, and I got to know all those guys

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Speaker 4: when there was no one around. So it's much easier

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Speaker 4: during the open locker room too.

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Speaker 2: That was the amazing thing. While you were there, everybody

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Speaker 2: came in the same door. Press, players, coaches are going

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Speaker 2: in and out of that door. I mean, it's changed.

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Speaker 1: It's not like so you guys, players and coaches all

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Speaker 1: when Jimmy and and Wanstead and those guys went out

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Speaker 1: to run at lunch, Troy our desks and when they

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Speaker 1: came in in the morning, when they left at the

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Speaker 1: end of the day, went right, Patt.

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Speaker 2: You well, you know because Michael Irvan and I could

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Speaker 2: walk out and he could scream at me in the

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Speaker 2: parking lot after after he got suspended for the first

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Speaker 2: quarter of the Detroit game. So yeah, there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of a lot of opportunities missed the plane it was.

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Speaker 4: It was far more casual back then. I really like

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Speaker 4: the fact you could you can talk to the players.

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Speaker 4: You can talk to eight every day of the week.

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Speaker 4: I remember there are two cases, two cases where during

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Speaker 4: the EMTT Smith holdout, uh, we wanted to talk to

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Speaker 4: Richard Howell, the agent and the agent and he wouldn't

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Speaker 4: talk to Tim unless I was there. So Tim and

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Speaker 4: I flew to Atlanta. I spent He did all the

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Speaker 4: transcud of the tape by sat Watch TV and the

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Speaker 4: other one we're doing a piece on Mike wayseik I

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Speaker 4: think even after an Acheman injury, and he wouldn't talk

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Speaker 4: to them unless I was there. And so in the

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Speaker 4: NFL I went over to the Failey Ranch just they

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Speaker 4: could talk to Wysac. Wow trusted me.

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Speaker 1: You guys pointed out the same mission that Jerry did,

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Speaker 1: which is the Steve Walsh. How could the Steve watsh

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Speaker 1: train have been left out?

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Speaker 2: Now?

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Speaker 1: When Woody and I talked to the two the Way

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Speaker 1: brothers who directed this, they explained that we had to

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Speaker 1: get to the games like we had to get to

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Speaker 1: the Super Bowls quickly, and they decided they made a

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Speaker 1: conscious decision to use Burline and him playing in front

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Speaker 1: of Troy in the playoff game and at the end

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Speaker 1: of that season as creating the tension and the stress

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Speaker 1: between Troy and Jerry and Jimmy at the beginning of

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Speaker 1: his career, rather than using the Wall.

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Speaker 2: And I can see in that because even though the

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Speaker 2: Wash thing was a terrible move by the Cowboys. It

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Speaker 2: cost him the first pick of the draft. Jim thinks

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Speaker 2: basically relieved him by paying way too much to get

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Speaker 2: him to New Orleans, and so that helped him get

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Speaker 2: some of those picks back, and so in the in

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Speaker 2: the end, it was kind of a push. Whereas the

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Speaker 2: Burline thing, basically from I would say from talking to Troy,

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Speaker 2: he still thought there was way too much Burline in

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Speaker 2: this documentary, but also much less, you know, on the

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Speaker 2: field at the end of the ninety one season.

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Speaker 5: He might have thought that any Steve Walsh was too much.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe, Troy, I'm not talking about Wash.

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Speaker 1: What do you remember about the herschel Walker trade, which

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Speaker 1: is a transaction that helped put Darren Woodson in this organization,

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Speaker 1: you know, because that seems to still all these years

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Speaker 1: later a point of major conflict between Jerry and Jimmy.

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Speaker 2: Look, I think there had to be multiple phone calls

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Speaker 2: and things going on. So I don't I don't I

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Speaker 2: don't just be that Jerry was, you know, somehow involved

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Speaker 2: in it. I don't think Jimmy did every dotted every

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Speaker 2: eye and crossed every tee or whatever on everything without

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Speaker 2: a little bit of input here and there. There were

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Speaker 2: supposedly Cleveland involved, a couple of other teams may have

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Speaker 2: been involved, But what I mainly remember is nobody understanding

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Speaker 2: the trade when it was made, and we all thought

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Speaker 2: it was a terrible trade because it looks like they're

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Speaker 2: just getting these journeyman players and maybe a pick or two.

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Speaker 2: And Jimmy explained to you and me, I think a

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Speaker 2: few days later, yeah, why does everybody hate this trade?

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Speaker 2: And we said, you got a bunch of has beens,

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Speaker 2: or you're.

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Speaker 5: The only guy looks like a football player, and he.

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Speaker 2: Said, we're not keeping any of these players. We're taking

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Speaker 2: the pick attached to every one of these guys, and

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Speaker 2: then if we want to make another deal with Minnesota,

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Speaker 2: if we decide to keep Jesse Solomon or whoever, then

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Speaker 2: we can do another deal. But we're going to get

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Speaker 2: two ones, three twos, and two threes out of this.

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Speaker 2: And that was just not clear initially that they that

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Speaker 2: the windfall of picks was going to be that extreme.

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Speaker 4: So a week after the trade, the copies were playing

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Speaker 4: in Kansas City and I'm covering the Chiefs, and of

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Speaker 4: course I knew Jimmy and the staff, so I was

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Speaker 4: on the field. Talking to Jimmy before the game about

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Speaker 4: the trade, he says, don't worry about these guys. It's

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Speaker 4: for the picks. He said, I'm not gonna let my

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Speaker 4: coaches fall in love with these players. I think he

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Speaker 4: only played them in the second fourth quarters. He said,

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Speaker 4: I'm not gonna let my coaches fall in love with

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Speaker 4: these players. It's all for the picks. And this was

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Speaker 4: within a week of the trade. Was the only one

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Speaker 4: that he stayed around. Yeah, it was Darren Nelson.

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Speaker 5: He didn't even ever report.

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Speaker 2: I don't think Jesse Solomon, David Howard, Yeah, and Solomon

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Speaker 2: had a big contractual thing with Jerry the next year, and.

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Speaker 4: I missed Jesse.

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Speaker 2: He was a character. It was that copy I hung

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Speaker 2: around he was. It was good. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Did you have anything more on the herschel Walker?

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Speaker 3: No, No, I didn't know a lot about it. Look,

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Speaker 3: I guess when I was looking at the pick, thinking

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Speaker 3: the same thing, the pick right. But what was the

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Speaker 3: history of Jimmy drafting like good players at that time?

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Speaker 2: Well, he'd only had one draft, and nobody at that

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Speaker 2: point could say Troigman's going to the Hall of Fame,

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Speaker 2: Mark Stepanovsky's going to five Pro Bowls, Moose is going

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Speaker 2: to be the best full back of this era and

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Speaker 2: all that, and in rushing it wasn't there yet. That's

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety, so it's just all he had was the

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Speaker 2: eighty nine draft, so there was you know, nobody had

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Speaker 2: confidence they really were on the right track to anything,

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Speaker 2: and here they've traded this guy that at least he

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Speaker 2: went to the Pro Bowl the last couple of years

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Speaker 2: for him. He had one big season for the Cowboys.

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Speaker 2: And nobody also knew that the Vikings had that the coach,

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Speaker 2: Jerry Burns, had no real interest in her and didn't

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Speaker 2: want to run the eye formation and do all the

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Speaker 2: stuff you got to do with Herschel That wasn't the

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Speaker 2: Vikings offense. So that was really the organization that kind

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Speaker 2: of made a fool of itself in the trade. As

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Speaker 2: it turned out, not the Cowboys, but.

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Speaker 4: The trade made sense for the Cowboys because I always

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Speaker 4: thought that the college coach coming into the NFL has

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Speaker 4: about a five year window where he can take advantage

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Speaker 4: of the draft. So Jimmy, Jimmy recruited Mark Stepanovski, Johnston, Treyikman,

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Speaker 4: a lot of the guys he was drafting he had already.

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Speaker 4: He knew, he knew he had a better feel for

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Speaker 4: the college players in those first two or three years

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Speaker 4: in the draft than anybody in the league. So getting

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Speaker 4: all the picks and then to get into one.

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Speaker 2: Two one instead to the whole country, Yeah, all the

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Speaker 2: conferences for players and that for the next two years,

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Speaker 2: even taking guys from Arizona State.

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Speaker 4: He couldn't. He couldn't. He knew that he couldn't get

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Speaker 4: the Cowboys where he wanted to go, picking with one

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Speaker 4: pick in each round, that that that would take, that

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Speaker 4: would take, they'd still be looking for a super Bowl,

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Speaker 4: that was the case. But he knew his chance was

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Speaker 4: to get as many picks as he could and capitalize,

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Speaker 4: which he did.

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Speaker 3: So how was Jerry in those picks during those during

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Speaker 3: that time, I know Jerry had a.

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Speaker 2: Lot version do you want to I'd love to hear you.

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Speaker 4: I had no idea.

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Speaker 2: That's the one thing that to me in the in

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Speaker 2: the documentary, I was glad this was in there because

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Speaker 2: they had Jerry's reaction to this, because Jimmy had told

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Speaker 2: me and I'm sure you told others that about this time,

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Speaker 2: Jerry said, we're going to have a camera in the

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Speaker 2: draft room. Now when we're doing something, sit in real

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Speaker 2: close and talk to me. So we're so it looks

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Speaker 2: like I know and Jerry, Obviously, the documentary disputed there

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Speaker 2: was ever a conversation like that.

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Speaker 1: When did you begin to believe that this team was

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Speaker 1: capable of winning a Super Bowl, or much less multiple

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Speaker 1: Super Bowls.

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Speaker 2: I'll give myself credit on one thing, but then not

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Speaker 2: on the other. Early in ninety two, you and me

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Speaker 2: and Mike Fisher and Richie went were talking beat writers

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Speaker 2: for another newspaper, and I said, early that year, for

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Speaker 2: some reason, if they both get the NFC Championship game,

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Speaker 2: the Cowboys are gonna beat the forty nine Ers. And

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Speaker 2: everybody said I was crazy, and I probably was, because

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Speaker 2: I think that's one thing that people still don't realize

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Speaker 2: the magnitude of you guys winning those two games. Forty

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Speaker 2: nine Ers win the eighty eight Super Bowl. They win

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Speaker 2: the eighty nine Super Bowl fifty five to ten. The

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Speaker 2: next year, they're fourteen and two. Me and Gallaway are

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Speaker 2: down on the field at Candlestick Park. They're about to

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Speaker 2: go to the Super Bowl. Roger Craig fumbles with two

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Speaker 2: and a half minutes to go, suddenly the Giants are

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Speaker 2: going to the super Bowl. And then the next year

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Speaker 2: Montana didn't play at all. They lost six close games

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Speaker 2: early and they were ten and six and by a

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Speaker 2: tiebreaker didn't make the playoffs. But they won their last

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Speaker 2: six and everybody knew they're coming. Steve Young has got

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Speaker 2: this thing going. They've still got Ronnie Lott, Jerry Rice,

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Speaker 2: Ricky Waters. So ninety two is supposed to be San

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Speaker 2: Francisco's year to get back, not Dallas's. But that season

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Speaker 2: went along. You know, I thought Dallas canna at least

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Speaker 2: play with him. But I remember in one of these

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Speaker 2: conversations I had with Jimmy after his TV show when

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Speaker 2: we'd go on the border and talk, him saying, we

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Speaker 2: will win super Bowls here, and I said, multiple, we're

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Speaker 2: drinking beers, so it's okay to question. In that setting,

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Speaker 2: he goes, we will win super Bowls. It's like God,

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Speaker 2: he is so confident. I would never think in a

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Speaker 2: conference with San Francisco, we're just gonna win at least

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Speaker 2: two super Bowls. So even when they won the first one,

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Speaker 2: I didn't think, oh, they're just going to go go

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Speaker 2: on a roll here, because I thought the forty nine ers.

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Speaker 2: It was too balanced. They were too good. That's again,

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Speaker 2: that's why those those three games in a row, you know,

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Speaker 2: that was that was all Fraser's three fights.

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Speaker 4: So ninety two, I'm now on the NFL beat, having

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Speaker 4: left the Cowboys, and I'm seeing the best game each week.

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Speaker 4: I'm seeing the best teams in league. I remember calling

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Speaker 4: up one of the assistant for a poor thanks Giving.

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Speaker 4: I said, you know something, I've seen all the good teams.

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Speaker 4: You can beat every team in this league. And he says,

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Speaker 4: you are kidding me. I said, no, I've seen everybody.

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Speaker 4: I said, you guys. And what was impressive about the

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Speaker 4: ninety two team they only lost eight games by starters

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Speaker 4: doing injury during dude injury, I mean they were biggest, strongest, fastest,

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Speaker 4: youngest team in football, healthiest team in football. And if

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Speaker 4: you stay healthy, good things happen. But again, talking before Thanksgiving,

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Speaker 4: you can't couldn't believe it. This could be your year.

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Speaker 1: And what do you remember about the relationship between Jimmy

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Speaker 1: and Troy And at what point do you think Jimmy

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Speaker 1: actually started to believe that Troy was capable of winning championships?

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Speaker 2: Because I don't think initially he did about the time

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Speaker 2: he held a Lombard. There was a game in ninety two.

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Speaker 2: You may not remember your career game by game. It's

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Speaker 2: the Rams here and the Rams won, and the last

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Speaker 2: play of the game, Troy threw a pass and didn't

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Speaker 2: throw it all the way into the end zone. It

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Speaker 2: was one of those players you just got to throw

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Speaker 2: an end zone and he threw it short and I

336
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Speaker 2: don't evenmember if it's complete or not, but when he did,

337
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Speaker 2: it's like ah, and that end of the game and

338
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Speaker 2: the Rams won. And I asked Jimmy about that the

339
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Speaker 2: next time we're on the border, and he said, we

340
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Speaker 2: know what we have at quarterback. We can win with

341
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Speaker 2: this quarterback, not we'll win, not we're going to win

342
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Speaker 2: because of we can win with this quarterback. So I

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Speaker 2: don't think it was until Troy by the end of

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Speaker 2: that season, and then the Philadelphia game, and then obviously

345
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Speaker 2: San Francisco, and he was just on a terrific run

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Speaker 2: by then. I think that is. I think it took

347
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Speaker 2: until then, And it may have taken that long for

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Speaker 2: Troy to believe Jimmy good coaching team to a Super

349
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Speaker 2: Bowl too.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, the big thing I thought was getting North

351
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Speaker 4: Turner ninety two. Yeah, he had David Shula and Troy

352
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Speaker 4: was kind of spinning his wheels in ninety one. But

353
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Speaker 4: when they got North Turner and Emma Smith, of course,

354
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Speaker 4: you know, this became It's it's sad that we never

355
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Speaker 4: saw the full Troy because this is a running team

356
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Speaker 4: and Troy was throwing twenty twenty two passes the game.

357
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Speaker 1: And he was capable of playing the position, and he

358
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Speaker 1: was anybody in football.

359
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Speaker 4: He was, but they didn't never need him too. They

360
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Speaker 4: didn't need him too. And that was the greatness of

361
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Speaker 4: that team. You had this great weapon of quarterback and

362
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Speaker 4: you only only when you needed him did you wheel

363
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Speaker 4: him out. And again, I think that the game that

364
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Speaker 4: put Troy in the Hall of Fame was at ninety

365
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Speaker 4: four championship game where he lost. Just the toughness and

366
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Speaker 4: just bringing that team back and back that was That's

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Speaker 4: that was the Hall of Fame track.

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Speaker 1: And I thought he said he has said that that

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Speaker 1: was like the game he's most proud of in terms

370
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Speaker 1: of way he and the team pased the toughness loss.

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Speaker 3: My thoughts, I mean, it's just it's it's surprising to

372
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Speaker 3: hear this conversation because I came in the league and

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Speaker 3: the first I saw Troy, I was like, this is

374
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Speaker 3: a great quarterback I've ever seen. Like he controlled the

375
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Speaker 3: locker room, he dictated practice like there was no there

376
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Speaker 3: was no other quarterback. Berline was the backup quarter hands down,

377
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Speaker 3: and this is the best player on the team. That's

378
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Speaker 3: the way I looked at Troy. This is the best

379
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Speaker 3: player on the team. And it was just the way

380
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Speaker 3: he practiced, the way how professionally he was. So it's

381
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Speaker 3: it's kind of weird to hear it from a different

382
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Speaker 3: point of view because you saw him come up, you know,

383
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Speaker 3: through from eighty nine all the way through, but coming

384
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Speaker 3: in as a young player, you just he controlled this organization.

385
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Speaker 2: You're seeing from the inside the leader established. And I

386
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Speaker 2: can remember one of those Austin practices that got real

387
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Speaker 2: heated when the ones are playing against it and he's

388
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Speaker 2: going out on Butch Davis yes, and it's like then

389
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Speaker 2: you see Troy like he is the leader of this team.

390
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Speaker 2: And then we saw him later leading the team when

391
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Speaker 2: it wasn't so good, and yeah, the sidelines and things

392
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Speaker 2: like that, But I don't think that was I think

393
00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,880
Speaker 2: his toughness was recognized, but I don't think everybody knew

394
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:13,520
Speaker 2: that leadership was going to be as strong as it was. Yeah, right,

395
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Speaker 2: But I do remember nor IV saying once near the

396
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Speaker 2: end of the ninety two season, it was nice to

397
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Speaker 2: hear somebody on TV talking about Troy instead of Emmett.

398
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Speaker 2: Not diminishing Emmett in any way, but just everything is

399
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Speaker 2: so based on Emmett, and it's winning the rushing title.

400
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,600
Speaker 2: Somebody acknowledging Troy really makes this thing go. You know

401
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:38,800
Speaker 2: that offense opens up the run as much as the

402
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:47,080
Speaker 2: run opens up the pass. Yeah.

403
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:51,440
Speaker 1: What about the friction and the difference of opinion over

404
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:55,159
Speaker 1: control and sort of the ego clash? When did you

405
00:19:55,400 --> 00:20:01,080
Speaker 1: first become aware that there were serious issues between Jimmy and.

406
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:06,480
Speaker 2: I thought they were manageable, again, based on what Jimmy's

407
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,840
Speaker 2: telling me over beers on the border of Wish. I

408
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,520
Speaker 2: had recordings of all these I remember you asked me,

409
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,200
Speaker 2: can I come to one of these? And Jimmy's not

410
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,200
Speaker 2: going to let you near one of these things. We're

411
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,040
Speaker 2: not taking notes and trying to remember what we talked about.

412
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:28,679
Speaker 2: But all the stuff he complained about usually seemed petty

413
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:32,000
Speaker 2: things that people complain about them in any in any

414
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Speaker 2: kind of work. But then in ninety three, even after

415
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Speaker 2: they've won a super Bowl, he was talking about it

416
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:42,080
Speaker 2: more and more, and fans would come up to Jimmy

417
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,760
Speaker 2: and say, you know, can I get your autograph and

418
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,760
Speaker 2: he'd sign it and they'd say, we're from Arkansas too,

419
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,520
Speaker 2: and he would say, I am not from Arkansas, I'm

420
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,879
Speaker 2: from Port Arthur. He did not want to be connected

421
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Speaker 2: to that part of his life in any way. But really,

422
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 2: you guys are at in Orlando, and I think we're

423
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:07,320
Speaker 2: getting around to that. And I am covering an NCAA

424
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 2: first round because I always had to take a breath

425
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,120
Speaker 2: and get away from the Cowboys. I'm covering NCAA first

426
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:17,439
Speaker 2: round games in LA somewhere out west, and people are

427
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,360
Speaker 2: asking me about this story. That part hadn't broken yet,

428
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 2: but something had happened, and I said, they go through

429
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,520
Speaker 2: this all the time. It's not going to mount anything.

430
00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,919
Speaker 2: And by the time I got back, Orlando had exploded.

431
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Speaker 2: But I really didn't see see it coming. Well, I

432
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Speaker 2: don't think anybody did. But I thought most of it

433
00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,600
Speaker 2: they could get through. I thought the winning would get

434
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,679
Speaker 2: them through. A chance to win makes nobody's ever done it.

435
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:48,160
Speaker 2: How could they not both really want to do that

436
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:49,360
Speaker 2: with all they've.

437
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 4: Got tem I saw it coming in nineteen ninety one.

438
00:21:54,800 --> 00:22:00,399
Speaker 4: In nineteen ninety one are spectacular NFL section or football section,

439
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 4: the hundred page colossus. I was the NFL guy or

440
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:05,720
Speaker 4: the Cowboys guy, and I was going to do a

441
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 4: story on power, total power, and how Jimmy had total

442
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:15,439
Speaker 4: power in building this team. And that's the point. So

443
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:17,399
Speaker 4: I told I sat now with Jimmy and gave him

444
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 4: the premises, Oh, he says, we're going to have a problem.

445
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:22,880
Speaker 4: That's what's said. Jerry's not going to like this. So

446
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 4: when I sat there for several nights, I sat now

447
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 4: with Jerry, and he was trying to craft a quote

448
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,439
Speaker 4: to make it look like he was more involved than

449
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,200
Speaker 4: he was quotes. And finally one day Jimmy put me

450
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,439
Speaker 4: aside before the nine am practice and Austin say, I

451
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 4: wish you'd get that story done because I am tired

452
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,199
Speaker 4: of talking about it Jerry at night. But the problem was,

453
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 4: I understand, Jerry got all the all the heat when

454
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 4: they were one or fifteen, and Jimmy got all the

455
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,680
Speaker 4: credit of seven nine, and Jerry sitting back saying, hold it,

456
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 4: how come I'm not getting any credit? And that was

457
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 4: the issue here that I saw nineteen nine. I said,

458
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,919
Speaker 4: if these guys can't get along when they're not winning,

459
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 4: this is a seven to nineteen. They didn't want a

460
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 4: playoff game yet and there's a little bit of friction

461
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 4: going on nice so when they win, it's going to

462
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:08,920
Speaker 4: get real bad. And it did.

463
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 1: And why do you think Jerry decided that night in

464
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 1: Orlando to tell us how he really felt about Jimmy

465
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 1: and what he perceived to be a lack of loyalty

466
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:21,880
Speaker 1: from the head coach.

467
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 4: I think the toast had something to do with it,

468
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 4: and he felt snubbed, much like Tim didn't, being nothing

469
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 4: at that to do, I think, and I think he

470
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 4: picked his audience. I think he wanted the Dallas when

471
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,479
Speaker 4: he wanted to tell this the Dallas Morning News, but

472
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 4: this was.

473
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 1: He was because he wanted to make a change, because

474
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 1: he wanted to I.

475
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,879
Speaker 4: Think I think the Jimmy and Jacksonville things. Tim can

476
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 4: tell you more about that.

477
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 2: Well, go back to go back to two things real quick. One,

478
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,479
Speaker 2: the night of the Super Bowl in Atlanta, you and

479
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 2: I go over to wherever the cowboys are having some

480
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 2: kind of party or something in the hotel. We're staying

481
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 2: at a team hotel. Done, and you and Jerry comes

482
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 2: over to talk to us for a minute. And after

483
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 2: we say congratulations or whatever, you say, Now all you

484
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 2: got to do is, you know, make sure your coach

485
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:12,159
Speaker 2: is coming back. And Jerry was so dismissive of that

486
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 2: even being an issue like that would be number twenty

487
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 2: four on his list. And that's when I started to

488
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 2: really figure out he didn't think a head coach really

489
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,160
Speaker 2: does a heck of a lot. He thinks he could

490
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,400
Speaker 2: do this job, which, as he told Frank.

491
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 3: Contract coming up or was it? I mean no, it's

492
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:29,879
Speaker 3: the basis of that conversation.

493
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 2: He had a ten year contract, but he had offered

494
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 2: Jimmy a new one. But he had removed some of

495
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 2: the language regarding.

496
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 5: Roster control.

497
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,199
Speaker 2: Okay, and Jimmy had told me about that, and a

498
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,439
Speaker 2: little of that had come out. I can't remember how

499
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 2: much was public at that point, but that that had happened,

500
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 2: and so I just think you also have to keep

501
00:24:55,119 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 2: mind Jimmy and my great reporting instincts. I made nothing

502
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,880
Speaker 2: think of this. He had his car, his Corvette, driven

503
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 2: to Atlanta by a friend and I said, what is

504
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 2: your car doing here? Because it's in the parking lot

505
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 2: of the hotel. He goes, Oh, I'm just going down

506
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 2: to Florida next week after the super Bowl's over to

507
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 2: buy some property for an off season place. I don't

508
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 2: connect that means anything. Okay, he's going to go buy

509
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 2: a place in the Keys. He's got money, he can

510
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 2: do that. And he went to the Keys and he

511
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 2: stayed for several weeks. And when I next time I

512
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 2: saw him was in March, about a month before the draft.

513
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 2: And I saw him at that There used to be

514
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 2: a seven to eleven in Valley Ranch there. As you're

515
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,199
Speaker 2: driving in and I see him and Ronda in the

516
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 2: car and I go over and talk to him. I said,

517
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 2: how's the draft going? And he goes, oh, I haven't

518
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 2: even looked at a player. And I said, are you serious.

519
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 2: He goes, yeah, I haven't looked at the player, and

520
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 2: then he goes I finally had to call Weaver and

521
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 2: tell him just give Kauflin the job. I was like,

522
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 2: what he's telling me that he was interested in the

523
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 2: jackson He truly had been seeking the Jacksonville job. He

524
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 2: couldn't get out of his deal. But he hadn't looked

525
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 2: at a single player a month before the draft, and

526
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 2: that's like a week before the owner's meetings. So when

527
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,439
Speaker 2: it all comes down to it, it's both guys wanted

528
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 2: out of this relationship. I'm not sure they knew why

529
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 2: other than they were bored with each other and the

530
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 2: whole thing about credit. But Jimmy wanted out as much

531
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:33,199
Speaker 2: as Jerry wanted him. He never did anything more than

532
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 2: five years. Yeah, So and you know this, there were

533
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 2: times you would either you didn't even lose the game.

534
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 2: I think it was at Minnesota you won and Jimmy

535
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 2: went nuts. Was that the one no food?

536
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 3: After the Washington Charles Hayley walked in late and there's

537
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 3: a couple of players coming in walking in. We gave

538
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 3: up some points at the end of that game. The

539
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 3: game was won, I mean was and he came in.

540
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 3: He was blistering hot after that, and I didn't, you know,

541
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 3: I really never really felt that Jimmy. Yeah, I mean

542
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 3: what I felt the wrath of Jimmy before, but I

543
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 3: never felt like there was a there was going to

544
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 3: be a divorce like this whole time. I had no

545
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 3: idea that there was back talk that these two weren't

546
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 3: getting the LNG. We rarely saw Jimmy. We never, I'm sorry,

547
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 3: you rarely saw Jerry. We saw a lot of Jimmy

548
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 3: during practice.

549
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, you saw more of Jerry when Barry was well.

550
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 3: Barry came in Jerry every day.

551
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: Rick and I went into elaborate detail about the night

552
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,360
Speaker 1: in Orlando, and Uh, Jerry for the first time publicly

553
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 1: threatened Jimmy's job.

554
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 2: You were outstanding in that you you.

555
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 1: You were omitted for I guess editorial decisions, budget limitations,

556
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: I don't know, but anyway, you were on a part

557
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: of that reporting over the course of that week about

558
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: whether this was going to get resolved, that Jimmy was

559
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: going to return or not. Because when Jimmy came back

560
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 1: from Orlando back to Dallas, you and some other of

561
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: our colleagues, men airport.

562
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,360
Speaker 2: Was on a Saturday, and you actually went to Pensacola

563
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 2: because and then he had promised to go to em

564
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 2: It's football camp, and you tracked him down briefly there.

565
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 2: I think. So then he flies into Dallas and everybody

566
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 2: knows it, and I thought, for sure they do some

567
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 2: of this video news cameras, you know, doing the walking

568
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 2: backwards thing with Jimmy, and I'm in there like talking

569
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 2: to him on the way. It's like, how could they

570
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 2: not just tremendous, tremendous footage for any documentary and they

571
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 2: left it out. But to my credit, there was people

572
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,640
Speaker 2: were trying to ask him stuff and he clearly wasn't

573
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 2: gonna just stop and do an interview. And I, as

574
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 2: we're getting by it, I said, Jimmy, we got to

575
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 2: talk to you. We're coming to your house. He goes, Okay, yeah,

576
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 2: come to my house. And I was like, oh my god,

577
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 2: I can't believe you felt for that. Yes, I didn't

578
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 2: say who we were, but he told me, yeah, Rick

579
00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 2: can come. So Frank comes, Frank luxA comes, David wuographer comes.

580
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 2: He stayed for about a half hour. Jimmy said that's

581
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 2: enough for the photographer. He's leaving. But that part and

582
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 2: Rick was there, it was so surreal. He's sitting there,

583
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 2: Jimmy's parents are on the couch.

584
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 5: He stopped in Port Arthur on.

585
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 2: The way to pick him up. So they're there and

586
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 2: they're like a Norman Rockwell painting sitting over here in

587
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 2: the corner and Jimmy scrubbing his fish tank. He's saying

588
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 2: that he's taking my team away from me. I'm sorry, Mama,

589
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 2: you can bleep that if you have.

590
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 4: To, but that's what he said.

591
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 2: And we're sitting on the floor trying to figure out

592
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 2: what to do. And shortly after that, Jimmy's got tears

593
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 2: on his coming down his face. He said, all right,

594
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 2: let's do this interview. And I said, let's wait a minute,

595
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 2: let's just let just hold on. And this may sound

596
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 2: very unprofessional at this day, and Age Ronda brings a

597
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 2: round of beers, a roundom Heinekens, and we sit there

598
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 2: and kind of relax for a little bit and then

599
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 2: finally are able to talk to him about what he

600
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 2: thinks is going on. And he didn't know what was

601
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 2: going to happen, He didn't know the night before, and

602
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 2: I don't know how they would have resolved that if

603
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 2: not for the two million dollars check that ended up in.

604
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 4: His Let me go back to the fish tank. Fish tank,

605
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 4: This thing is this thing is this fish tank everywhere

606
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 4: He's scrobing that thing so hard. I'm thinking this thing

607
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 4: is going to explode. The we're all going to get

608
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 4: washed out.

609
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:28,719
Speaker 2: To the street.

610
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 4: He was just pounding, crying, cuss.

611
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 2: Because he's so emotional and so angry, yelling, and he

612
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 2: said the word I said, and I.

613
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: Said, I fished out what it might be a worst

614
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: word on you did, might have different standards at but.

615
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 2: So and his parents are just over there. They don't

616
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 2: know what to do about anything, and Ron is trying

617
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 2: to calm fixed down. Photographer doesn't know what to do.

618
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: Frank goes get more beers. So it was, yeah, it

619
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 2: was Did you know it was over? Then?

620
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: No, because they still met for several days after where

621
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: you were.

622
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 2: At Value mansion next day and he's meeting. I thought,

623
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: this is just gonna be a big dog and pony

624
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: show and they're gonna and then they put two chairs

625
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 2: out there. It's like he must staying, and uh, because

626
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 2: he wouldn't be coming out and Jimmy comes out with

627
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 2: this kind of a smile on his face. And then

628
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 2: wait a minute, I don't think he's staying, Like something

629
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 2: weird has happened here. Uh, But I don't know that.

630
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 2: I thought until it happened that he was leaving because

631
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 2: like everybody else, it just did not make sense. I remember,

632
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 2: I'm sure you didn't know.

633
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 4: That was in Phoenix.

634
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 3: I no idea. How did you guys keep it quiet

635
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 3: for two days?

636
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 2: Well, no, by then it wasn't quiet. Were stories, but

637
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 2: Jimmy Jerry wasn't talking, and Jimmy would go in and

638
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 2: out of Jerry's office, but he wouldn't really see.

639
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 5: It was like a week, ten day long.

640
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, ago, even after we reported initial from Orlando

641
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: what had happened there.

642
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the night before the press conference day, I

643
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 2: took you over to Jimmy's house, that was your first

644
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 2: four his house, and he told us that night there

645
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 2: were two or three things that could happen, but he

646
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 2: didn't know what it was gonna be. I could stay,

647
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 2: I could not stay. I could stay in a limited capacity.

648
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: I remember talking to Emmett in Pensacola when Jimmy was

649
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: at the camp before Jimmy arrived, but all this had

650
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 1: happened in Orlando and nobody knew what the outcome was

651
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: going to be.

652
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 5: And Emmett was like, if.

653
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: We lose our football, our coach over this bs and

654
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: blah blah, and Troy said, if I'd have known that

655
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: we weren't going to have Jimmy, I might not assigned

656
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: my contract extension. So when did you become aware it

657
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: was Switzer already the coach by the time.

658
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 3: No, no, no, I was Actually this is how because

659
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 3: you're talking about you know, Troy's Emmitt, Michael Irvins and

660
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 3: some of those guys had been with Jimmy for years.

661
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 3: I'd only been with Jimmy for two years, right, I

662
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 3: only saw the wrath of Jimmy all the time he

663
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 3: was not there was zero relationship, which was ninety five

664
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 3: percent of the team, like you, having beers with him.

665
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:02,959
Speaker 3: I'm amazed.

666
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 2: I'm sitting here.

667
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 3: Amazed without the conversation because that's not that wasn't the

668
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 3: dialogue with us. So I didn't find out until I

669
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 3: left for Phoenix, and I was gone in Phoenix, and

670
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 3: back then we didn't have cell phones like I saw

671
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 3: it on the news the Phoenix the ABC News Channel

672
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 3: three news broadcast is what popped the story for me,

673
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 3: and that's I couldn't believe what was happening. And I

674
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 3: saw Michael Evert throwing a garbage can. That's that's how

675
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 3: the news was traveling back then. Kevin Smith called me

676
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 3: and I remember the I can still to this day.

677
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 6: Because he called me on the landline my mom's house,

678
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 6: and I can't say what he said, Yeah.

679
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 2: Whats going on?

680
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 3: That's how I that's how.

681
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 2: The news book was broke to me.

682
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 3: And but I didn't see the stories, you know, and

683
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 3: that that was the difference. I couldn't see you got.

684
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 3: There wasn't no social media, has no internet I had.

685
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 3: I had to read the paper or get the clips,

686
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 3: and I read on Twitter.

687
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a different world.

688
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: But so the the amazing thing to me that Jerry

689
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 1: pulled off was that the transition from Jimmy being let go,

690
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 1: fired whatever it was, to I've hired Barry Switzer was

691
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 1: like instantaneous overnight.

692
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 5: It was like the big.

693
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: Story the day after that press conference wasn't Jimmy was out,

694
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 1: It was Barry's here.

695
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,240
Speaker 2: That was the night, like the press conference is, whatever

696
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 2: time of day it is. And then within a few

697
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 2: hours the Berry stuff is coming out and we're one

698
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 2: edition newspaper that you know, we're not publishing putting things online.

699
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 2: There's no online and ED and I are in our

700
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 2: little copy hole going how up should we put this

701
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 2: Barry Switzer stuff? That's gotta be the lead now, doesn't it.

702
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 2: No Jimmy's like, how do you even figure it out?

703
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 2: These are two monster stories and the any one is

704
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 2: so improbable. It's such an obvious slap in the face

705
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 2: to Jimmy, the whole five hundred coaches. I'll get a.

706
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 5: Guy I'm gonna start with probably number.

707
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 2: I'm gonna start with him, and he's gonna win the

708
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 2: Super Bowl here, which I wish we would have won

709
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 2: that year he came in.

710
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: So what was your experience like switching from Jimmy style coaching.

711
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:31,280
Speaker 3: To look they tried to keep everything the same, you know, practice,

712
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 3: the cadence, everything, we did, meetings, the whole nine. But

713
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 3: you can tell there was a lot of animosity with

714
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 3: the coaching staff but Davis because they thought everyone thought

715
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 3: they should have So there wasn't a connection between the

716
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,280
Speaker 3: head coach. When Jimmy was there, there was a direct connection.

717
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 3: It'd all roll downhill and he would just jump Dave

718
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,839
Speaker 3: Campbell or whomever. You kind of saw things just like

719
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 3: it really is lightened up. Everything was lightened up. I mean,

720
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 3: the practices weren't as crisp or as hard as they

721
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 3: had become. Barry was a lot more lenient on time.

722
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 3: Guys are coming in late during training camp, so it

723
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,879
Speaker 3: was a lot more. We weren't as structured as we

724
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 3: were in the past, and I thought that that was

725
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 3: the first time I kind of felt a little loose

726
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 3: around this.

727
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,320
Speaker 2: At the time. You know, Barry was not a sympathetic figure.

728
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 2: But that is a hard thing to come into. Oh,

729
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 2: you're supposed to win, and these are not your coaches.

730
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,399
Speaker 2: Some of them are even Oklahoma State coaches that used

731
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 2: to go against.

732
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 3: More tougher situation to come into and it's.

733
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: Like, I can't be a hard ass, and the expectations

734
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: are don't blow it.

735
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 2: I didn't build any of it. These aren't my coaches,

736
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 2: and so I think you didn't have a choice but

737
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 2: to take a step back. And so we just ridiculed

738
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 2: him for it in the paper for doing it. But

739
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:50,839
Speaker 2: I don't think you had a choice. Really.

740
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 3: I think we would have wanted a ninety four. There

741
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 3: was just something about Jimmy and the confidence that he

742
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,399
Speaker 3: exuded through through the team, like there was no doubt

743
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 3: that we were going to go into games and not

744
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,359
Speaker 3: win the game, Like we lost the game in ninety

745
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 3: two to the Rams, and I think we were shocked

746
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,800
Speaker 3: walking back to the locker room that we actually lost

747
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,959
Speaker 3: to the damn Rams, right, and he ran matter of fact,

748
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 3: but there was no doubt going into games that we

749
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 3: were going to win the game. So I used to

750
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 3: look at who who was in the in the NFC,

751
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 3: we had San Franz number. I mean that game, that matchup,

752
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 3: they just couldn't beat us, not with Jimmy at the

753
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 3: helm and getting us there. So that was the only

754
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 3: team that them. Maybe Bay was coming up, they weren't there.

755
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 3: They weren't there with us in ninety and that ninety

756
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 3: four season, I firmly believe we went three straight.

757
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think you may not have won ninety six,

758
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 4: but I think there still might have another super Bowl

759
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 4: five and a decade. If you said, maybe the greatest

760
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:52,399
Speaker 4: team do you.

761
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 5: Think you won?

762
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: If Jimmy and State and there's no telling you would

763
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 1: have stayed for five years or I.

764
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 3: Firmly believed we would have won four to five super Bowls.

765
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 3: And I say that because of how Jimmy drafted in

766
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 3: the later rounds, because we were losing guys on that

767
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:08,800
Speaker 3: are on special teams, and people forget there's three phases

768
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:10,800
Speaker 3: of this game, right, So we were losing some of

769
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 3: the guys on special teams, and we weren't backfilling. I

770
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 3: played for seven eight years. I played on three special

771
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 3: teams because I couldn't come off the field. We didn't

772
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 3: have any backups. We didn't we weren't drafting guys that

773
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 3: could get me off the punch.

774
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 5: You were thirty five years older.

775
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 3: Still, I mean, that's how bad it was with this organization. So,

776
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,839
Speaker 3: I mean Jimmy was a guy who found those guys

777
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 3: later in.

778
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 4: The draft, Vanderbeeks.

779
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 3: That filled Vanderbeeks.

780
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 2: I dispute your Super Bowl thing with great respect to

781
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,720
Speaker 2: both of you. Hall of famers, Hall of Fame, worthy

782
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 2: and Hall of Fame whatever you're in over there, uh,

783
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 2: because San Francisco is gonna win one with Steve Young

784
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 2: in that group. I just think, and I know you

785
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 2: you felt like you had your number, their number, and

786
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 2: Jimmy definitely had George Sefer's number, he had him shook.

787
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 2: But had Jimmy stayed, I think Jimmy and the players

788
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,280
Speaker 2: would have I think there would have been more stuff

789
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 2: like that Burno. I mean, something would have happened, just

790
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 2: the nature of jim So you can imagine if that

791
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 2: if you could have kept that roster and kind of

792
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 2: the mood of that team going, you know, one forever.

793
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 2: I just don't think Jimmy was capable of I think

794
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 2: he would have.

795
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 5: But you guys only knew one way to win, right,

796
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 5: We only knew one way.

797
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 3: And we were young.

798
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, you were young, and we were young, and we.

799
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,399
Speaker 3: Were still being you know, I get that. I think

800
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 3: Darryl Johnson said that he was. We were getting to

801
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,399
Speaker 3: a point that where if we had Jimmy, he would

802
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 3: have burned.

803
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 2: Us out, yeah practices or whatnot.

804
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:40,320
Speaker 3: And I think you say that for a lot of

805
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 3: the older guys, the Mark twoen A's and those and

806
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 3: Jimmy would have had to have managed them differently. But

807
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 3: you still had I was twenty four to twenty five

808
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 3: years old, right, he had a number, and Kevin Smith

809
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 3: and a lot of other guys had a number of

810
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 3: years and still be pushed to that limit. I don't know.

811
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 3: I just thought I think by team, I think that

812
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 3: team in that organization, which was why it was such

813
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 3: a surprise to us, was because we were in the

814
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 3: moment and we were talking about three three straight. The

815
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 3: players were talking about now the coaches, players were talking

816
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 3: about three straight. So we were definitely in the moment.

817
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 3: I think we could have won three straight and possibly.

818
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 4: See in ninety two you were the youngest team in football.

819
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 4: Three years later, you're still guys who are twenty two,

820
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 4: twenty three or twenty four to twenty five and twenty six,

821
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 4: you are still in their primes. And the guys like

822
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 4: eight been a quarterback from twenty eight to thirty two

823
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 4: is when he's ad his prime. I mean, there's a

824
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,800
Speaker 4: lot of football left. Tim's right. Take Jimmy ut of

825
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 4: the equation. Just look at the roster that was a

826
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 4: good rosters or wasn't football, and it had the potential

827
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 4: to win four or five Super Bowls, And I think

828
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 4: Jimmy would have replenished as time went on. And I

829
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 4: think when Jimmy left, the personal department left. I remember

830
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:53,839
Speaker 4: one year I was I was covering to Cowboys minder

831
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 4: the Kevin Smith Draft, and I ran into Jimmy in

832
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 4: the corridor the morning of the draft and I asked him,

833
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 4: just making small talk, you ready? He says yeah, And

834
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 4: then he pulled out a three by five card and

835
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,879
Speaker 4: he had seventeen names on it and he says, this

836
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,479
Speaker 4: is my draft board. The other one was for show

837
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 4: for Jerry and the group. He had seventeen names in

838
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 4: that card, and I think he got twelve of the

839
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 4: names on a card. And that's when he made all

840
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 4: the trades. He knew exactly what he wanted in that

841
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 4: draft and he was he's as good he and I

842
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 4: think Bill Walsh and Jimmy are probably the two best

843
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 4: coaching personnel combinations I've seen fifty years from football.

844
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 2: Do you have that card in your files somewhere?

845
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 4: He didn't give it to me. He wouldn't give it

846
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 4: to so he said, he said, if I give it

847
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 4: to you, you'll give it to Jerry.

848
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: As we get to the end of this episode, I

849
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: don't know what else what he might want your opinion on.

850
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:49,240
Speaker 1: But what what do you think Jerry accomplished with this project?

851
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 2: Well, I think most people, most fans would look at

852
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 2: it and say that it looks to them, and a

853
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 2: lot of it is a fairly honest appraisal. There's criticism

854
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 2: of Jerry throughout the thing. We can point to some

855
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 2: things like I don't think he wanted in there the

856
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 2: two million dollars and things like that, but it but

857
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 2: I think it shows I don't think Jerry as we

858
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 2: know is not afraid of criticism. He reacts less to

859
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:20,359
Speaker 2: criticism than any human I've ever speaking. Yeah, well, your

860
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 2: particular criticism. He just praises me. He tells people he

861
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 2: read me in the paper.

862
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 1: He didn't know that he had failed two quarterbacks over

863
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: twenty years until he pointed out to him.

864
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 2: But maybe I didn't write it very So that's on me. No,

865
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:40,720
Speaker 2: I mean, it's vastly entertaining. Did it. Did it convince

866
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 2: himself to trade Michael Parsons? I don't know. That would

867
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,800
Speaker 2: be sad if that's what, If that was the driving

868
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:52,280
Speaker 2: force behind that, it's really good. He gets the Cowboys

869
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 2: brand out there more if they need that. And uh

870
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 2: and and nobody, nobody has ever been better at getting

871
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 2: their team's brand out Jerry.

872
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's okay. He is the greatest marketer in the

873
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 4: history of sports. He and Bill vec and he that

874
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 4: the Cowboys were not way back when looking as a

875
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 4: Super Bowl contender, and he put this brand out there.

876
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 4: Everybody in the country is watching this video on America's team.

877
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,919
Speaker 4: It's all about marketing. I remember Jerry once told me, Hey,

878
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 4: I don't care what you say about me, as long

879
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 4: as you spoke cowboys right in the headline. That's all

880
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 4: he wants. It's all about marketing and brand. Yeah you don't.

881
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 5: You don't think he changed anybody's.

882
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 1: Perception of him as a as a football owner, as

883
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: a franchise builder, any of those kinds of things.

884
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, I think I think people

885
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 2: see his level of involvement the way the documentary shows it,

886
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:50,320
Speaker 2: but they don't. We all know he's in coaches meetings

887
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 2: and all those things now he and Steve him. Yeah,

888
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 2: we all know. He wasn't in Jimmy's coaches meetings. They

889
00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 2: didn't show any of that because it didn't happen, and

890
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 2: so I don't know that it did that. But I

891
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 2: think it leaves people with the idea that he'll allow

892
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 2: a fair assessment of the goods and the bads of

893
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 2: the Jerry era.

894
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 4: I talked to a few people have told me they

895
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 4: find Jerry. They're more sympathetic to Jerry after watching the

896
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 4: documentary than they were before.

897
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:22,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I'll tell you what I did.

898
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:23,360
Speaker 2: Notice.

899
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 3: You know, I's a business owner now, like watching Jerry

900
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 3: run this business and the risk. I mean, because you

901
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 3: become a business owner, you got to you gotta put

902
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 3: there's a lot of risk to doing so it's payrollers.

903
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 3: Watching him run the business really inspired me because I

904
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 3: didn't see that side of it. All I saw it

905
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:45,800
Speaker 3: was Jimmy in the day to days and then watching

906
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 3: you know, America's team and seeing that documentary. So it

907
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 3: just showed me who Jerry really is. And God didn't sleep.

908
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 2: They got rid of all the people that had run

909
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 2: the Cowboys up till then. So it's and Gooset knows

910
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 2: in the early years, it's it's Jerry and Mike mccoyre

911
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 2: back there on the phone all day long doing sweeps

912
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 2: and partnership. Yeah.

913
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 1: I mean, remember he was ridiculed for spending one hundred

914
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: and forty million dollars on this franchise that, all this

915
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,240
Speaker 1: time later is now estimated to be worth what twelve

916
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: thirteen billion dollars?

917
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:18,399
Speaker 2: To what point he got that part right?

918
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 4: I pitched him for the Hall of Fame. I didn't

919
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 4: pitch him as an owner or as a general manager.

920
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,280
Speaker 4: I pitched him as the man who changed the financial

921
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:28,839
Speaker 4: dynamic of the league. And I go back to the

922
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:33,359
Speaker 4: deals with Pepsi, American Express, Nike official sponsor Texas staying

923
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 4: the league fought him on that. He showed the league

924
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 4: how to make money with their buildings. That triggered the

925
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 4: stadium explosion. Everybody had to get out of their own building,

926
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 4: the old build the baseball stadiums, get their own buildings.

927
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 4: They can market the stadium. And then the TV deal

928
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 4: when tag Laboo and Modell wanted to give back money

929
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 4: and Jerry stood up and said, we're not doing it.

930
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 4: Jerry got Rupert Murdoch involved, And when Rupert Murdock got

931
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,800
Speaker 4: involved in Fox, that's when the money exploded and Jerry's

932
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 4: put a lot of money in a lot of pockets,

933
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 4: including his own.

934
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 2: Sorry, if you remember that weekend, the last week of

935
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,720
Speaker 2: the see that's the Inmates shoulder game ninety three against

936
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 2: New York. That's the weekend that the Fox thing is

937
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 2: announced that Fox is replacing CBS and work at the

938
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 2: Newark Airport Marriot with Verne Lunquist, and vern Lunquist is

939
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 2: practically in tears like I'm losing my job. Well, he

940
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 2: didn't know he's gonna have twenty five years of doing

941
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 2: SEC college football on CBS. But but we looked at

942
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 2: things like you can't get rid of CBS. I grew

943
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 2: up on CBS. Jerry looked at things like Fox is

944
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 2: gonna pay us twice as much money. That's what we

945
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 2: need to do. And and you know, whether you like

946
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 2: that or not, Jerry was right, yeah, all yeah, yeah,

947
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 2: what Charlotte talks about, E been calling and saying smoosh

948
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,760
Speaker 2: the stadium, Remember, put smooshes all over the stadium.

949
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 1: And the NFL did not have a partnership with ny

950
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: They were with Rebok no.

951
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 4: No brands and coats and hands. Yeah, the generic cowboys I.

952
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,799
Speaker 1: Remember were the boot and posing for the picture and

953
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 1: training camp.

954
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 5: When they announced that deal, like it was. Yeah, he

955
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 5: took a lot of risks.

956
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 4: He changed the NFL as we knew it, the CBS, NFL.

957
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:23,240
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks, I was wildly entertaining great scary stories.

958
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 3: I mean it really because I've said it from the

959
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 3: opposite side, right, I've always been on that player side.

960
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 3: But to hear the relationships with the coaches back then,

961
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 3: I never knew.

962
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 5: You guys have really you never would have suspected the way.

963
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, never the way I reported it.

964
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 3: And Jimmy's always tell us, hey, you watch what you

965
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 3: say to the media, Like, well, I'm gonna call him

966
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:44,919
Speaker 3: up watch.

967
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 5: So thanks, appreciate you guys being a part of this

968
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 5: doing it.

969
00:47:52,520 --> 00:48:00,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.