WEBVTT - QLS Classic: Chris Hayes 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.800 Of Course Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:07.040 classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora. 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:11.719 Hey, this is on paid Bill. 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:14.400 This week's QLs classic features journalist, author, and host of 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:17.200 NBC's All In with Chris Haes. We discussed politics, We 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:20.119 discussed hip hop, We discuss the Upper east Side. Originally 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:29.080 released on July fourth, twenty eighteen, Enjoy, We'll hold. 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:30.120 Your hand through the process. It's good. 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:30.720 Yeah, It's all good. 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:39.680 Sume su Suprema Roll Call, Suprema Suprema Roll Call, Suprema 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:47.000 S Suprema Roll Call, Suprema S sub Suprema roll. 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:47.559 Cruse is here. 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:52.240 Yeah, to explain the fear. Yeah of why panic? Yeah, 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:54.720 I hear in the rear mirror. 0:00:54.920 --> 0:01:02.120 Suprema Sun Sun Suprema roll Call, Suprema Supremo roll Call. 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:06.039 The World's a mess. Yeah, these are the days. Yeah, 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:09.360 to be all in. Yeah with the Sugar Network. 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:17.960 Suprema Suprema roll Call, Supreema Suprema Roll. 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:21.319 Called, Ivanka Trump, Yeah, opens Embassy. 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:22.080 Yeah. 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:25.280 Film at eight pm. Yeah on MSNBC. 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:33.840 Roll Call, Supreme Son, Son Suprema Roll Call, Suprema Son Sun, Suprema. 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:38.160 Roll Called, pay Bill. Yeah, and here's my stick. Yeah, 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:46.119 you know it's time, yeah for politics super Suprema roll called, 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:49.880 Supreme roll call. 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:53.880 It's been a while, yeah, since I had the rhyme. Yeah, 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:59.920 I'm sitting here, Yeah, just watching the time ro Suprema. 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:07.640 Son set Suprema roll call, Supremat Suprema roll Suprema su 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:13.959 Suprema roll call, Suprema Sun Sun Suprema roll call. 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:17.079 Now see, it wasn't that bad. 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:18.600 Not not too bad, not too bad. 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:21.800 Okay, listen quest of Supreme brus. 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:22.239 Yeah. 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:27.480 Wait, can I ask a technical question about our theme? Yeah? Okay? 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:32.440 Do you not hear any time it's the third person's 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:35.440 turn to Ryan normally to you when Fante is here? 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:41.960 Do you not hear the sound of parking? Uh? 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:47.079 That's just on the track, literally really literally every time 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:49.079 in the background noise. 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:51.880 All right, Well, the next time we do the theme song, 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:54.959 I guess when we recorded. 0:02:54.520 --> 0:03:01.280 The recordings fucked up? Remember remember when the engineer, Oh yeah. 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:04.840 Yeah, and in between if you if if nobody's rhyming, 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:10.040 you can hear your guide in the background's leaking through. 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:13.640 Right, But at what point was I in a car 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:17.920 reverse driving to here? Yeah? 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:21.399 That parts in your head? It is not or it's 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:22.919 a harmonic of something that's happening. 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.799 It's not in my head, my stroke. Can we run 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:30.160 the team all the time? We're doing it all yeah, yeah, Hello, 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:34.480 I always hear it, and I'm like looking at you guys, 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:37.040 like do you not hear it? Do you not hear it? 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:38.880 So we have to do this all over again. Play 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:41.080 the theme again. We're doing Yes, this is the first 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:42.480 time we're doing all new themes. 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:45.240 No, you listen to it without without us singing that. 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:46.400 Yeah, just listen to it. 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:55.120 Okay, nothing there, suprema. I can't believe I'm doing this 0:03:55.400 --> 0:04:05.280 on my own show. Okay. Course comes in, YadA, YadA, okay, okay, 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:09.120 So then this is what a mere speaks. Yeah, and 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:11.920 then I say something else yeah, and then here comes 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:16.560 to set up and then the punch line. Shout out 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:18.640 to Mark Kelly and angry. They sound great on this. 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:21.799 Right, well, the drums just drumm themselves. 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:28.680 The drummer second, yeah, yeah, you can hear somebody. 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:32.200 Yeah, I he't somebody talking all right? Now, wait here 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:37.320 comes the third one. You ready, here we go. Someone's 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:44.920 parking the car. Ohr, I hear it. Yeah it feedback 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:46.520 feedback somebody. 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:48.280 Out that that sounds like a right, now we can 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:48.680 lower it. 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:53.000 Someone backing up a goddamn delivery whatever are you you 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:56.000 you lower the volume? Yeah, I'm just saying that someone 0:04:56.120 --> 0:05:01.680 was backing that thing up. Okay, looking over for the 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:05.599 led the small ship slide. Anyway, ladies and gentlemen, this 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:10.000 is a very deep political episode already, yeah, already. 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:13.119 Thanks for pointing out the horrible engine delivery trucks. 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:15.840 And I don't know. I was like, did I make 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:17.560 the theme in the car? I don't know, it just 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:19.320 it just happens every time. 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:23.480 Hey, look, we have a guest, Ladies and gentlemen. 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:25.960 Welcome to another quest Love Supreme. 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:26.880 Uh. 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:30.560 We got Sugar Steve or the Sugar Network explaining to 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:32.800 our guess how powerful his network is. 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:36.760 Well, the long story short of what we're talking about 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:39.760 is this new feature that Instagram has which yes, allows 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:42.160 you to interview somebody on this on your live story 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:44.520 where you're on the top and they're on the bottom. 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:48.400 But we we have a guest. We have we have 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:52.320 double Bill. We're double Bill today unpaid and Boss Bill 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:55.800 uh and our guest today, ladies and gentlemen. Uh, he 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:59.200 is a journalist. Uh, some say that he's the co 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:04.120 leader of the liberal media along with with Rachel Maddow 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:09.920 Bronx Native Hunter College and which is actually a high school, Yeah, 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:11.799 which is weird, stupid. Yeah. 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:14.640 No, it's a wonderful school. I used to live right 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:16.400 near it. It's great host of one. 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:19.800 Of my favorite MSNBC shows, and of course after this 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:26.440 election cycle, my station channel always stays on MSNBC. UH 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:30.039 all over Chris Hayes and probably author of the best 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:39.200 liberal spleen uh book of Our Imbalanced System. I have 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:42.480 to say, well written. I feel like it's almost uh 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:48.760 to date myself uh a cliff notes. Cliff notes to 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:52.000 people who are like sort of on the fence of 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:55.760 you know, like those people that ask like, well, they 0:06:55.800 --> 0:07:00.480 must have did something, and this is the best liberals 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:03.640 plain book. I actually when I got it, and I 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:05.000 got it like three days ago, I didn't think I 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:06.480 was going to get through it in time for the 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:09.920 for the the our interview today. 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:13.760 But it's that you read I got that was sort 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:16.080 of by design that people would My favorite thing that 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:18.840 people say to my two favorite bits of feedback from 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:20.280 the book. One is that people were like, oh, I 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:22.280 sat down, I read it once sitting or I got 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:26.480 through really quick. And two is for the for people 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:29.160 that are you know, I don't think the audience for 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:30.960 the book. I don't think it's people that are hardcore, 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:34.240 like you know, Blue lives matter and Black lives matter, 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:36.600 you know. And I'm not gonna way I'm gonna boycott 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:38.640 the NFL because Colin Kaepernick is kneeling. Yeah, yeah, Like 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:40.840 it's gonna be hard to reach those folks. But there's 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:43.800 a huge swath of people, particularly white folks, that I 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:46.480 think are generally sympathetic but also like that kind of 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:49.920 they must have done they they did something right. There 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:51.240 was a reason. 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:52.640 Was it? 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:56.200 Did he really? And the book is an attempt to 0:07:56.280 --> 0:07:59.520 try to walk people through kind of some of the 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:01.120 reality of what it's. 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:04.440 It's it's it's well, it's well executed. Anyway. I haven't 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:07.760 said his name, I haven't said the office name. Let's 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:09.520 see how long it's going. Can I get to ten minutes? 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:12.000 Steve finishing? 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:16.600 So one night I was on Instagram and I was like, 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:17.480 I'm gonna play. 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:23.400 Wait, ladies and Tom and please welcome colony in the nation. 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:26.080 Uh and our friend Chris Aes to. 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:28.960 Course love the free Thank you, thank you very much. 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:31.520 Right before we get all into that, Yes, Steve, we 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:35.080 really don't have Well, we had a guest, that's your relationship. 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:37.040 It's taking me ten minutes to explain who he is. 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:41.120 So the feature just just came out recently a few 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:43.600 months ago, and I was just messing around with it 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:45.280 one night and I was super high and I was like, 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:47.280 I'm going to be Chris Hayes and I'm going to 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:48.280 interview motherfucker. 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:50.600 So I started, you can invite people? 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:53.720 Does it just? 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:53.880 How? 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:57.720 Does how does that invite request show up on someone's account? 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:00.160 Like you two have to mutually follow each other, right. 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:03.600 Following should make that happen, by the way, Yeah, I should. 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:06.640 Find you can either invite them where they can invite you, 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:09.360 and it's obvious something pops up and you, you know, 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:12.000 you both have to be cool with it. You can't 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:16.720 just somebody's screen. Well, you can do that too, there's 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:22.040 no way. Maybe you have to be verified special shut 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:22.720 the ship down. 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:27.040 Yes, verified people can just cock your. 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:30.120 Phone check mark you have. 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:33.480 Yeah, there's there's a list of people that I'm following 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:36.199 that are following me that I can talk to Illuminati 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:40.719 and then if I want to interview Erica. I can 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:42.760 also search for her name. I have an option that 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:45.720 lets me search for a name presser and if she accepts, and. 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:47.720 She accepts, and then you go and then you go 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:49.400 live and anyone. 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:52.240 And people watch. It's a voyeurs. People watch each other 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:55.800 interview each other. So Steve is taking us actually to 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:56.600 the next level. 0:09:57.200 --> 0:09:59.120 I got to a few hundred people knowing, you know, 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:01.600 and then network And. 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:03.920 You find it unnerving to watch in real time how 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:05.000 many people are watching. 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:07.680 Meaning what how few people are watching. 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:12.959 I find something bizarre like we'll do a Facebook live 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:15.719 before the show, and my whole life, in a weird way, 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:17.760 gets you know. We get the ratings every day at 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:20.400 four fifteen and at MSNBC we get a spreadsheet and 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:22.920 it matters a lot, like what kind of numbers you're doing? 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:26.280 It it resonates aroound the building, you know, So in 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:28.400 a weird way, a lot of my professional life is 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:31.920 oriented towards this number. And I find something unnerving about 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:34.559 the instant feedback as you're talking of, like seeing the 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:36.520 numbers go up and down, like it's some kind of 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:43.640 like say, absolute extremist version of let me perform in 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:49.360 the way what will maximally, maximally get people to what 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:49.800 am I doing? 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:54.640 What am I doing? Part? It's most people will probably 0:10:54.760 --> 0:11:00.080 sit for a good eight nine seconds, right, And I 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.320 noticed that. I mean one time I had a very 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:06.719 magical movement happened on my feed where it's like at 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:11.199 an actual DiAngelo rehearsal. Well, yeah, I did one of 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:13.480 those two with common No, I'm just saying that. It 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:18.320 was like even even at a DiAngelo rehearsal for the 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:22.600 Roots Picnic, like, you know, my numbers went to ungotly 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:26.640 like four figures and then about fifteen minutes later it 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:31.760 went down to like three hundred, which you know, maybe 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:34.440 it is kind of ridiculous to but the thing is 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:35.400 that your people. 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:38.160 I was at that rehearsal, it got kind of boring 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:41.880 as it went on. Yeah wait, it was uh huh. 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:43.960 That doesn't happen. 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:45.679 It just drifts like it was like it was all 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:47.120 hitting and then everybody sort of just went for a 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:48.600 walk and it kind of went away and then. 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:53.480 Yeah, but I mean I think just the the the 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:57.760 the art of or the the task of watching someone 0:11:57.800 --> 0:11:58.680 have a conversation. 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:01.880 Yeah. Plus I mean one of the things that I 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:05.080 learned one of the kind of crash course. Realities of 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:10.880 this job is keeping people's attention is hard. That's it's 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:13.920 work to keep people's attention, you know. 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:19.079 So Okay, as as a fan of of uh what 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:24.040 was the show and HBO? Okay, I'm gonna take the 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:28.319 long scenic route Star Dumb and Dumber, not Jim Carrey, 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:35.760 the other one Jeff Bridges's show an HBO about Okay, 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:40.360 all right, So when you're on the air, is there 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:42.720 a do you have a an ear piece in which 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:46.319 there is a producer like okay, now ask about this 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:47.160 and then. 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:49.880 So we Yeah, so you're you're always passionate to the 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:51.520 control room through what's called an I F B. Right, 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:55.680 So you got an earpiece, and there's a really wide 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.360 spectrum of how active the control room is in that 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:03.600 in questions. In my case almost never. I would say 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:06.960 a few times a week the control room will say, 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:10.679 will suggest a question, but it's it's very rare, partly 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:16.160 because I get I get super annoying. It just feels 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:18.680 like backseyt driving. It's like I like, I'm at the wheel, 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:21.640 so don't tell me to make a left here. I 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:25.000 know I know what I'm doing that other people have 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:27.280 different feelings about that. That's my feeling about it. 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:30.000 Does that depend on the relationship you have with your producer? 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:31.959 I think it does. It depends on you know, the 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:36.280 different shows have a different balance between how host driven 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:40.120 and how producer driven they are. Different hosts have different 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:43.080 levels of comfort of asking questions in the moment, Like 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:46.640 some want questions pre written and prompter to go through 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:49.800 that they've already done through like a process. Some don't 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:51.520 want anything imprompter. They just want to kind of think 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:53.000 in the moment, which is usually the way I am, Like, 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:54.240 I kind of know what I want to ask, but 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:56.319 I want to be One of the things I think 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:59.400 that happens is if you script it too much, kind 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:02.280 of like this though you don't listen right, Because one 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:03.520 of the things that can happen is if you've got 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:06.000 your idea about question one, is this in question two, 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:07.800 and you ask question one, what you're doing in your 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:10.360 head is okay, uh huh yeah, now I'm on question 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:12.600 two as opposed to wait, what are they saying? 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:12.920 Gay? 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:17.000 But but I think it varies a lot the person. 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:19.320 The person I talked to the most, which is the 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:21.800 line producer on the show who's the person who keeps time, 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:25.080 which is a key part of the whole. You know, 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:27.800 she's the drummer, right, She's the drummer for the show. 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:29.720 So we got to figure out, you know, we got 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:31.440 to bring things in at certain moments, and we got 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:34.000 to hit our marks to make a show. Because it's live, 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:36.400 it's a zero sum. You go long here, you got 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:37.800 to go short here, you go, you got to cut 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:39.840 something here, and she's the one with cues a minute, 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:41.600 got to get to break. Okay, we're over. 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:44.480 So I'm not certain if All In is the type 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:48.440 of show that deals with real time this just then, 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:55.000 but certainly or surely with the time that we're living in, 0:14:55.880 --> 0:15:00.040 especially with yeah, you know who behind it? Will that 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:03.320 can happen anyway? Even this morning, Like you know, Alie 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:07.240 Jackson had an entirely different show plan. 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:09.880 And then she got four thousand pages probably of transcripts. 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:11.720 And then she got of this just in. 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:13.440 Yeah, and then it's. 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:17.760 How how much on your game? Well, I know you 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:20.080 have to be on your game, but how annoying is 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:24.520 it that at any moment the world can fall apart 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:27.560 and you have to be fluid and explain and knowledgeable and. 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:31.880 It can be it's both. I would say it's invigorating 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:34.280 and thrilling in its own way because there's a certain 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:37.040 adrenaline to it when something happens at seven fifteen and 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:40.600 it's like, Okay, we're making decisions. What's okay, this is 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:42.320 the new A block, then what gets kicked out? Then 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:44.040 A goes down to B, then B gets killed? Or 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:45.400 do we keep the guests there and they move to 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:47.480 see or do we move like and you're making all 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:51.600 these decisions very quickly. One of the blessings and I 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:54.320 imagine it's actually this way on the Tonight Show that 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:59.560 there's a bizarre blessing of having a live show at 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:03.600 eight o'clock in that we don't have an option not 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:08.680 to do it right, Like if news breaks is seven fifteen, 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:11.680 whatever happens in those forty five minutes, the show comes 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:16.239 on air at eight, and there's there's something weirdly relieving 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:18.440 of stress about that, because if it was like, no, 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:21.280 it has to be perfect, we can let's wait till 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:24.000 eight twenty five to make sure that it's perfect. Is 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:27.360 that Mandy Patinkin, Hey, Manny Patinkin all just so wow, 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:30.760 that's the most wild thing that happened to me in 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:31.200 my life. 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:37.440 Wait a minute, Wait a minute, we just got up 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:42.600 the anti randomly walks in a room star of Homeland. 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:44.760 Yeah yeah, come on here, you want to be a 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:45.160 part of it. 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:56.280 Oh well we're we're yes, no podcast? 0:16:56.720 --> 0:17:01.840 Hey this and I'm good. How are you this? 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:05.840 Man? It's good to see you again. 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:15.359 Awesome, very enough to meet you. 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:20.600 I have a podcast and Chris Is from M S 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:22.520 n b C is the host of it. 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:30.720 Yeah, I don't know who I am, right, yeah, all right, 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:34.200 thank you. 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:36.679 Oh it's a copy of my book. Yeah, absolutely, that 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:40.200 would be my great pleasure. All right, right, thank you man, 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:44.320 You're a legend. You're a legend. Literally, that was the 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:47.000 fucking best thing that ever just happened. 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:55.639 Thank you for being on chatting with Sugar. Can I 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:58.320 tell me the particular story when you wait? 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:00.640 Can we interrupt your course? 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:01.600 Yes? Wait, hit me. 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:04.159 I was working on a musical and man Pittinking was 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:06.920 going to be in it, and he uh came and 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:10.760 sang and delivered and told all these stories about his 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:13.560 mother and he's a very fascinating human being. 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:15.000 I could talk about him for a long time. 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:17.760 But that was an awesome cameo in quest Love Supreme 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:19.199 only on Pandora Sugar Network. 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:21.000 Fucking many Pink was amazing. 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:22.960 So we gotta get him to sign some ship. 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:29.720 No, we can't, we can't. We know he has to 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:32.320 remain I mean, he didn't get the Agelo to sign yeah, 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:35.880 just ship though he did, did he? Yeah, he said 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:39.760 it's more and then he walked wait what was the 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:42.280 question to I can't remember. It was a print something 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:44.359 probably it was more R and B. 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:46.200 And then he went to get cigarettes and never came 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:50.600 back like that all right. 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:54.600 So man, he's so what's the right word, like he 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:58.280 is so entirely himself. Oh yeah, I mean that I 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:00.800 you would expect that, but that that was what I 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:02.480 expect Mandy Patinka to be like. 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:06.960 Yeah, that was a wow, that's that was great. You're 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:08.160 the host of the show now, so. 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:13.240 You kind of just got and something crazy happens in 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:15.439 the middle of a show and then and I lose control. 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:17.560 Yes, you were just talking about how you how you 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:23.280 reacted in the moment improvisation, and you got all flustered. 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:25.080 You were like, he's he's the host of my show. 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:27.879 What was that's questioned? 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:33.400 What was your very first uh journalist assignment, like what 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:37.240 is what is the road that leads to you having 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:40.760 your own show? And isn't there an internship that leads 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:42.120 like did you work at a newsroom? 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:45.120 And I came up a sort of a weird way 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:48.000 and and in a way that doesn't really exist anymore, 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:51.359 partly because the ecosystem I came through has all died 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:56.040 off a little bit. I graduated from college and I 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:58.199 was really into theater and mooch Chicago with my then 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:01.399 girlfriend now wife. And what in Chicago's super cheap. I 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:03.400 don't know if any of you have ever lived in Chicago, 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:05.879 but it is a great place if you're twenty two 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:09.440 and broke, because it's so much cheaper than New York. 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:11.840 It's so much cheaper than La The Winner sucks. But 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:14.760 there's a lot of people in Chicago doing a lot 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:17.160 of really cool stuff because people pay nothing for rent. 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:20.360 And there's like people playing shows in the abandoned buildings 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:23.560 and doing theater and photography. And I was there doing 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:26.400 theater and also freelance writing and started writing. 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:27.800 Yes, sorry, what'd you major in there? 0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:30.840 Just I majored in philosophy, Yeah, I major in philosophy. 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:33.040 I was doing theater and I was. I started writing 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:35.600 for the Chicago Reader, which is like the alternative weekly there. 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:39.760 It's like the Village Voice, Washington, DC City paper like that. 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:44.160 And I started freelancing and got had more and more 0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:47.280 success doing that, started writing for more publications like online 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:51.000 liberal publications. I got a job at a lefty magazine 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:53.800 called In These Times. I then got hired by the Nation, 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:57.160 and then my wife got a job in Washington, d C. 0:20:57.160 --> 0:20:59.400 Clerking on the Supreme Court. In two thousand and seven 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:01.879 we moved to watch Washington, d C. She was clerking 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:04.480 for Justice Stevens, which was an amazing thing to see 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:10.960 up close. And I became the through complete accident, the 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:13.760 long time Washington bureau chief of The Nation magazine David 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:16.320 Korn left to go to Mother Jones three months after 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:18.320 I moved to DC, and they're like, oh, we needed 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:20.280 to be a new bureau chief, and they interviewed me 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:21.919 and they gave me the job. And from that I 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:25.520 started appearing on television as a talking head punch of 0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:27.560 the Yeah, I'm the Washington Bureau chief of the Nation, 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:29.480 So what do you think about? And this was in 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:32.280 the sort of last year the Bush administration in the 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:34.280 two thousand and eight campaign and the financial crisis and 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:34.920 all that, But. 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:37.800 How often does that happen? Usually don't you have to 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:40.840 like work your way up the ranks out of paper? 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:42.800 And so yeah, it was. It was a bunch of 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:46.080 accidents and timing was perfect, timing, timing, And I think 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:47.800 the fact that I had a little I had a 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:49.640 background in theater, I had acted, I had a little 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:50.679 bit of a performance background. 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:51.400 I like to talk. 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:54.760 I think that was you know, you have we try 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:56.520 people out on TV all the time, and talking on 0:21:56.560 --> 0:21:59.240 TV is a very specific and weird skill that is 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:03.639 different than talking, It's different than being an interesting person. 0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:05.440 It's just a weird skill. You sit in a room, 0:22:05.800 --> 0:22:08.840 you stare into a camera. You don't have any of 0:22:08.840 --> 0:22:10.760 the physical cues that come, like right now, we're all 0:22:10.800 --> 0:22:12.360 looking at each other like you're not in your head 0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:14.320 when I say something, which is a nice encouragement, I 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:17.119 keep going. But you don't have that in it in 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:20.360 a TV studio. It's it's a weird and alienating experience. 0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:22.800 Oh you're saying, even that's more different than this that 0:22:22.880 --> 0:22:24.840 what we're doing right now? Oh yeah, yeah, I feel 0:22:24.880 --> 0:22:30.159 like this exposes everything about me. Whereas I'm better tweeting 0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:34.040 and typing thoughts than this than I am because I 0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:38.440 have to think about things and edit. Where I'm even 0:22:38.560 --> 0:22:40.600 two years into this, I'm not. I feel like I'm 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:42.359 not fluid at all, and. 0:22:42.440 --> 0:22:44.240 Well that I would disagree with that, but I would 0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:48.000 say that it's really interesting ask Bill people have. People 0:22:48.040 --> 0:22:52.480 have different experiences of how they you know, how they talk, 0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:55.520 and how and how easily that kind of that form 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:57.040 of communication comes to them. And I think I had 0:22:57.080 --> 0:23:00.439 a sort of aptitude for it. And so what was 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:03.400 I started getting booked more and more as a guest. Eventually, 0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:06.000 in twenty ten, I was asked to guest host a 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:08.400 show for Rachel. That was a huge deal. I went 0:23:08.400 --> 0:23:10.320 down to New York a day early. I read off 0:23:10.320 --> 0:23:17.960 the teleprompter as practice. I was nervous af the I 0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:21.560 was so nervous, and then I did it and it 0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:24.359 went well and it rated well, and then I started 0:23:24.359 --> 0:23:25.960 guest hosting more and more often. And the more I 0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:28.360 guest hosted, then I moved from that to a weekend show, 0:23:28.359 --> 0:23:30.000 and from the weekend show to an evening show. So 0:23:30.000 --> 0:23:31.720 it was it was a very strange route because I 0:23:31.800 --> 0:23:36.120 came through kind of liberal lefty magazine, alternative weekly journalism 0:23:36.240 --> 0:23:38.160 on the print side. I was a writer, always a writer. 0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:40.800 I didn't have any TV background. I didn't intern at 0:23:40.840 --> 0:23:44.040 a local station. I wasn't a news anchor at a 0:23:44.320 --> 0:23:46.520 you know station Des Moines or you know. People moved 0:23:46.520 --> 0:23:48.919 from smaller markets to bigger markets. I came in this 0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:51.960 completely different direction and kind of had to learn TV 0:23:52.040 --> 0:23:52.480 as I went. 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:58.159 Wow, Oh, Chris like you, yeah, to learn TV as 0:23:58.200 --> 0:23:59.960 he went, so did I. 0:24:00.119 --> 0:24:04.920 Chris, So, what what percentage of your current job is journalism? 0:24:05.040 --> 0:24:06.640 What percentage is performance? 0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:08.600 Let's say it's a great, great question. 0:24:11.040 --> 0:24:13.840 I only ask great questions. 0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:18.120 Your Instagram channel is amazing, The Eight Hour Extended Mandy 0:24:18.119 --> 0:24:28.800 Patinkin interview, The Ring Cycle, the you know, look, I 0:24:28.880 --> 0:24:31.680 try to I basically am consuming things all day and 0:24:31.680 --> 0:24:33.400 I'm trying to report every day, which means that I'm 0:24:33.440 --> 0:24:35.800 constantly in contact with a bunch of different people in 0:24:35.800 --> 0:24:40.119 different areas. But you know, the staff is, you know, 0:24:40.119 --> 0:24:42.200 we're got twenty five people to make an hour of TV, 0:24:42.960 --> 0:24:45.359 and so much of it is taken up with just 0:24:45.400 --> 0:24:48.280 getting that thing on the air. If we had a 0:24:48.400 --> 0:24:50.120 I would love it if we had a newsroom where 0:24:50.160 --> 0:24:52.440 we were sending people out. You know, dozens of reporters 0:24:52.440 --> 0:24:56.760 to do enterprise journalism every day. In terms of what 0:24:56.800 --> 0:24:59.240 I'm doing, I think it's a combination. I mean, you 0:24:59.359 --> 0:25:01.240 kind of can't say to create the performance part from it, 0:25:01.240 --> 0:25:05.320 because if the performance part isn't there, then people are 0:25:05.320 --> 0:25:10.960 not gonna watch. But the interviews, you know, my favorite. 0:25:11.000 --> 0:25:12.719 We had someone on last night. We had a political 0:25:12.760 --> 0:25:15.280 reporter wrote a great piece about basically the Trump administration 0:25:15.720 --> 0:25:18.280 burying a report that came from their own administration about 0:25:18.400 --> 0:25:21.199 the toxicity levels of certain chemicals and water. And they 0:25:21.200 --> 0:25:24.400 were like, let's not release this, it'll freak everyone out. 0:25:24.640 --> 0:25:26.840 And my favorite moments that happened on TV are when 0:25:26.880 --> 0:25:29.320 I'm learning something live in the moment from the interview, 0:25:29.400 --> 0:25:32.000 because that feels like I'm making discovery. So we talked 0:25:32.000 --> 0:25:33.920 to this reporter. She was great. I learned from her. 0:25:33.960 --> 0:25:36.400 I learned things I hadn't learned even in reading her piece. 0:25:37.119 --> 0:25:39.440 And I try to get as many of those moments 0:25:39.440 --> 0:25:41.840 as I can in the show, where as opposed to 0:25:41.880 --> 0:25:44.399 some pre rehearse thing where I throw a lob and 0:25:44.440 --> 0:25:48.360 you dunk it that I'm actually like, we're actually reacting 0:25:48.359 --> 0:25:50.200 to each other. And I'm learning things in real time. 0:25:52.200 --> 0:25:58.440 So all right, similar to the comedy world where save 0:25:59.440 --> 0:26:01.240 news of the world. All right, all right, so say, 0:26:02.000 --> 0:26:06.080 as of this cycle or this us speaking right now, 0:26:08.920 --> 0:26:12.159 Kanye opinions are like a thing right now in the 0:26:12.160 --> 0:26:16.600 comedy world where Kanye is so crazy or even just 0:26:17.400 --> 0:26:20.160 let's go you know years ago where it was always 0:26:20.280 --> 0:26:25.479 OJ jokes, that sort of thing. With the way that 0:26:25.560 --> 0:26:33.120 your particular channel runs, if everyone is telling the same story, 0:26:33.560 --> 0:26:35.400 is that just with the thought in mind that there's 0:26:35.480 --> 0:26:38.560 no one watching this show concurrently, like nine hours in 0:26:38.600 --> 0:26:40.440 a row, and that you just have to refresh and 0:26:40.560 --> 0:26:43.800 me tell the story again. And I'll take Stephanie Ruhl's 0:26:43.840 --> 0:26:52.000 take on it and Halle and so but what is there? 0:26:52.080 --> 0:26:54.080 I mean, I don't want to say a competition thing. No, 0:26:54.200 --> 0:26:56.280 are you guys dreaming of like Okay, I'm gonna this 0:26:56.359 --> 0:26:57.680 is gonna be my Bob Wood. 0:26:57.440 --> 0:27:00.840 Word totally moment or you know, my Harbernstein. 0:27:02.080 --> 0:27:03.480 I would say this, it's going to play me in 0:27:03.520 --> 0:27:05.840 the movie when I bless this story open. 0:27:05.960 --> 0:27:08.600 Well, you know it's a balance between the two. So 0:27:08.640 --> 0:27:11.000 there's two competing impulses. I think one is you don't 0:27:11.000 --> 0:27:12.520 want to run the same show over and over, and 0:27:12.560 --> 0:27:16.520 repetition is a real problem, and it's a real challenge. 0:27:16.600 --> 0:27:20.480 And there's I think partly we can't think of it 0:27:20.520 --> 0:27:23.280 as Okay, someone's watching the network for four hours, because 0:27:23.600 --> 0:27:25.520 it's a little like ten ten wins here in New 0:27:25.560 --> 0:27:28.000 York City, right, like traffic and weather together every twelve minutes, 0:27:28.000 --> 0:27:30.479 because people are just cycling through. And so it's like, well, 0:27:30.480 --> 0:27:32.000 I already know the traffic and weather. It's like, well, 0:27:32.080 --> 0:27:34.320 you other people are coming to it. We got to 0:27:34.320 --> 0:27:36.760 tell them what's up. So there's a little bit of that, right, 0:27:36.800 --> 0:27:38.800 So a certain amount of repetition. At the same time, 0:27:38.840 --> 0:27:41.520 you do want to distinguish the shows. And the real 0:27:41.840 --> 0:27:44.200 hard part is, and you know, I say this about 0:27:44.520 --> 0:27:47.200 TV all the time, which is that plants grow towards 0:27:47.280 --> 0:27:49.480 the light. And what I mean by that is you 0:27:49.520 --> 0:27:52.640 can have a garden in your backyard and you can 0:27:52.680 --> 0:27:54.879 plant everything all nice and spaced out, and if you 0:27:54.920 --> 0:27:56.760 come back six months later and light is only hitting 0:27:56.760 --> 0:27:59.000 one part, all of the plants have grown over here. 0:27:59.560 --> 0:28:02.560 And the light is ratings attention, what people are paying 0:28:02.600 --> 0:28:06.000 attention to, and so what will inevitably happen is people 0:28:06.080 --> 0:28:08.440 chase the stories that they feel like there's the most 0:28:08.600 --> 0:28:11.000 juice in, that there's the most attention in, and that 0:28:11.080 --> 0:28:15.600 leads to a certain inescapable level of redundancy about what 0:28:15.680 --> 0:28:18.600 the stories of the day are not always defensible. I 0:28:18.600 --> 0:28:21.320 think sometimes that there's certain myths get embedded in people's 0:28:21.359 --> 0:28:23.800 heads about what people are interested in. There's a little 0:28:23.800 --> 0:28:25.560 bit of a bubble that can happen, which is that 0:28:25.600 --> 0:28:27.480 you work in this building where the TV's on all day, 0:28:27.720 --> 0:28:29.719 so you're constantly looking up at cable News and you're like, Oh, 0:28:29.720 --> 0:28:32.040 they're talking about x X is the thing we should 0:28:32.040 --> 0:28:35.199 talk about. So I actually try to keep the TVs 0:28:35.240 --> 0:28:38.720 off in my office for that reason. Okay, precisely because 0:28:38.720 --> 0:28:40.680 I don't want to. I just don't want to be 0:28:40.720 --> 0:28:44.800 overly influenced by what everyone in cable news is talking 0:28:44.800 --> 0:28:46.400 about all the time, because then you can have a 0:28:46.480 --> 0:28:49.680 kind of self fulfilling prophecy about that. But it's a challenge. 0:28:49.720 --> 0:28:51.160 We have a bunch of meetings throughout the day in 0:28:51.160 --> 0:28:54.120 which the production staffs of the different shows actually huddle 0:28:54.160 --> 0:28:57.240 and talk about what their respective rundowns are and try 0:28:57.280 --> 0:28:59.040 to make sure that we're not all doing the same show. 0:29:00.160 --> 0:29:10.760 So without being too bias towards whatever my cable news preferences. 0:29:11.280 --> 0:29:15.200 I think there was. I was in a waiting room 0:29:15.400 --> 0:29:20.200 and an airport once, and that's probably the longest I've 0:29:20.200 --> 0:29:26.080 been in a place in which Fox News was constantly running. Well, 0:29:26.280 --> 0:29:28.440 they did some weird thing where Fox News was on 0:29:28.440 --> 0:29:32.160 this television, but then behind me was CNN in the 0:29:32.200 --> 0:29:36.000 same room playing at the same time. Yeah, it was well, 0:29:36.040 --> 0:29:39.120 it was like one of them large like waiting room things. 0:29:40.960 --> 0:29:48.280 And so then it finally hit me why Fox News' 0:29:48.400 --> 0:29:51.600 ratings is how it is. One. I didn't know that 0:29:51.680 --> 0:29:57.440 they exploited women, uh that much to that level. It's 0:29:57.440 --> 0:30:00.800 like practically every journey, even if it's with a mail journalist, 0:30:00.840 --> 0:30:07.600 there's always a leggy, thy, stiletto heeled, young blonde uras 0:30:07.640 --> 0:30:11.160 And I was like, oh, this is why everyone's watching, 0:30:11.720 --> 0:30:14.240 Like I finally got it, because in my head, I'm like, 0:30:15.520 --> 0:30:18.040 people can't. I know, people want to accept the reality 0:30:18.120 --> 0:30:23.120 that accept I mean, I feel as though of the three, 0:30:23.560 --> 0:30:26.400 the big three networks, that you guys tell the truth 0:30:27.040 --> 0:30:31.160 of what's happening, regardless of what it is, but is 0:30:31.200 --> 0:30:33.960 there because there was a point where a lot of 0:30:34.000 --> 0:30:37.560 my favorite chills were getting pushed to the side, like 0:30:37.640 --> 0:30:43.000 suddenly Roland didn't have his show in the afternoon, and 0:30:42.320 --> 0:30:47.840 the Daily Shoe like a whole bunch of ms. And 0:30:49.080 --> 0:30:51.960 I was fearing that, oh God, they're trying to they're 0:30:51.960 --> 0:30:56.120 feeling the pressure of Fox News, Like will they adjust 0:30:56.200 --> 0:30:58.400 or I didn't know if it's new management, But how 0:30:59.440 --> 0:31:02.400 do you feel year that one day there will be 0:31:03.600 --> 0:31:06.400 the hammer comes down. It's just like, Okay, people aren't 0:31:07.560 --> 0:31:10.080 here for the truth anymore, and we gotta you know. 0:31:10.440 --> 0:31:13.440 I actually I sort of experienced this in reverse because 0:31:14.760 --> 0:31:17.080 when we launched the show in twenty thirteen, interest in 0:31:17.120 --> 0:31:19.560 politics was at a real low point. I mean, Barack 0:31:19.560 --> 0:31:22.280 Obama's just been re elected, Congress is in the hand 0:31:22.280 --> 0:31:26.280 of Republicans, there's this kind of stalemate, you know, and 0:31:26.560 --> 0:31:29.120 people just were like, eh, I'm kind of done with politics. 0:31:29.200 --> 0:31:31.720 I think the I think Barack Obama's re election particularly 0:31:31.760 --> 0:31:34.160 was like, Okay, that's the end of that chapter, right, 0:31:34.240 --> 0:31:35.280 like the. 0:31:35.560 --> 0:31:36.480 I can go on with the life. 0:31:36.560 --> 0:31:38.080 Yeah, Like we had George W. Bush and then like 0:31:38.120 --> 0:31:42.840 this crazy insane financial crisis and also this crazy insane campaign, 0:31:42.880 --> 0:31:45.080 and also we elected the first black president, and then it 0:31:45.080 --> 0:31:46.520 was like, is he going to get re elected and 0:31:46.520 --> 0:31:48.080 then he did, and it was like, okay, well we've 0:31:48.120 --> 0:31:51.040 got a sort of narrative arc here that was a 0:31:51.160 --> 0:31:54.400 dangerous for years of extremely Yeah, but people a lot 0:31:54.400 --> 0:31:56.040 of people checked out, and we saw it in the numbers. 0:31:56.080 --> 0:31:59.520 I mean, so my experiences, I've been doing the show 0:31:59.520 --> 0:32:02.960 for five years, twenty thirteen, we started twenty thirteen, fourteen fifteen. 0:32:03.000 --> 0:32:04.520 Those were lean years, and that's when a lot of 0:32:04.560 --> 0:32:06.480 those shows were getting canceled. And I think it was 0:32:06.520 --> 0:32:08.560 a combination of there was new management that came in, 0:32:09.200 --> 0:32:11.760 but also everyone was kind of struggling trying to figure 0:32:11.760 --> 0:32:13.880 out what gets people's attention. I mean, you remember the 0:32:13.880 --> 0:32:16.920 missing plane thing, right when the plane went missing, and 0:32:16.960 --> 0:32:19.480 that was that became this running joke, understandably because it 0:32:19.520 --> 0:32:22.080 was insane how much cable news covered it, but people 0:32:22.120 --> 0:32:23.840 were covering it out of desperation because it was it 0:32:23.880 --> 0:32:27.240 was the only thing rating. It's like, you couldn't you 0:32:27.280 --> 0:32:30.120 couldn't get people to do we. 0:32:30.040 --> 0:32:31.280 Have a fine at plane? No? 0:32:31.280 --> 0:32:34.680 No, No, it's crazy. Okay, Yeah, that's one of those 0:32:34.720 --> 0:32:37.240 for where did we end up up on that files? Yeah, 0:32:37.280 --> 0:32:39.760 like where we end up on the plane? I know, 0:32:40.000 --> 0:32:41.760 I know there was it was missing. 0:32:41.600 --> 0:32:43.880 But and they thought they found it. That they right. 0:32:44.240 --> 0:32:49.320 So what's happened instead over the course of our trajectory 0:32:49.360 --> 0:32:52.400 on the show is that we now have We've got 0:32:52.400 --> 0:32:55.520 form four times as many viewers as we had, you know, 0:32:55.680 --> 0:32:58.600 back in twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, the lean years, and 0:33:00.080 --> 0:33:03.240 my feeling, I feel like if the viewers are there, 0:33:03.360 --> 0:33:08.040 we're there. But TV's fickle. I mean, TV's rough. It's 0:33:08.080 --> 0:33:10.480 like it's like the restaurant business in New York City. 0:33:11.200 --> 0:33:16.000 So you don't even feel secure in your position now 0:33:16.320 --> 0:33:17.680 as a anchor. 0:33:17.480 --> 0:33:19.719 I feel pretty I feel them. I will say this, 0:33:19.800 --> 0:33:22.280 I feel the most secure I've ever felt like I 0:33:22.320 --> 0:33:25.440 have a contract. I'm going to be there through you know, 0:33:25.480 --> 0:33:31.640 through twenty twenty you know, barring something completely unforeseen, and 0:33:31.640 --> 0:33:33.280 and I feel as secure as've ever felt. But I 0:33:33.320 --> 0:33:37.200 have also I also understand that it's a crazy business 0:33:37.480 --> 0:33:41.880 and you know people things blow up all the time, 0:33:42.080 --> 0:33:44.120 and things get canceled to get moved around. It's just 0:33:44.160 --> 0:33:45.680 the nature of the business. And you got to kind 0:33:45.720 --> 0:33:48.320 of be a little at peace with that otherwise you're 0:33:48.360 --> 0:33:49.760 going to stress yourself out all the time. 0:33:54.840 --> 0:33:57.320 Normally, well, we kind of worked our way backwards, but 0:33:57.680 --> 0:33:59.920 I always started your beginnings. 0:34:00.720 --> 0:34:03.720 Can I just ask one more question before we go backwards? 0:34:05.040 --> 0:34:09.920 And speaking of like fickle and TV and stuff, Trump fatigue. 0:34:10.520 --> 0:34:12.440 So I'm kind of a news junkie, or I was, 0:34:12.760 --> 0:34:15.840 and now I'm kind of like I have Trump. 0:34:16.120 --> 0:34:17.200 You've hit You've hit your point. 0:34:17.280 --> 0:34:18.000 Yeah I stopped. 0:34:18.320 --> 0:34:21.120 That's interesting and well it's sort of correlated with the 0:34:21.160 --> 0:34:24.080 beginning of chatting with Sugar. So I don't really do 0:34:24.160 --> 0:34:28.399 anything anymore except that. But but no, in all seriousness, though, 0:34:29.520 --> 0:34:30.279 do you get that? 0:34:30.320 --> 0:34:30.920 Do you have that? 0:34:31.080 --> 0:34:33.160 Or are you getting that? Do you fear having that? 0:34:34.080 --> 0:34:34.319 Yeah? 0:34:34.440 --> 0:34:39.440 I feel it sometimes, I think, you know, there are 0:34:39.520 --> 0:34:42.880 times where it feels a little like being trapped in 0:34:42.960 --> 0:34:48.239 a dysfunctional or toxic relationship or a toxic household. Like 0:34:48.280 --> 0:34:50.800 I've been very lucky in my life that the people 0:34:51.160 --> 0:34:53.000 that are closest to me, I haven't had to deal 0:34:53.080 --> 0:34:55.479 with people very close to my life that are really 0:34:55.520 --> 0:34:59.480 toxic personalities. People do People have parents that are toxic personality, 0:34:59.480 --> 0:35:02.239 They have partners that are you know, siblings, Like people 0:35:02.280 --> 0:35:03.560 deal with that, they deal with that all the time. 0:35:03.600 --> 0:35:06.920 I'm very lucky my loved ones aren't you know, aren't 0:35:06.960 --> 0:35:09.920 like that. I feel like I have this weird experience 0:35:09.960 --> 0:35:11.840 of it now because so much of my day is 0:35:11.880 --> 0:35:14.799 dominated by the President of the United States and what 0:35:14.840 --> 0:35:18.279 he's doing, and and yeah, I think I have some 0:35:18.440 --> 0:35:20.520 craving to get outside that a little bit. We just 0:35:20.560 --> 0:35:26.760 we actually just launched a podcast that called whise is Happening, 0:35:26.760 --> 0:35:29.040 where I get to have kind of longer conversations with 0:35:29.080 --> 0:35:33.120 people and outside of the specifics of the daily news 0:35:33.120 --> 0:35:35.560 cycle that tends to be so driven by the President. 0:35:36.520 --> 0:35:40.399 And partly I think that's because that's nurturing a need 0:35:40.480 --> 0:35:43.760 I have to talk about, yeah, talk about other stuff. 0:35:43.760 --> 0:35:46.239 I mean, just just to talk about you know, I've 0:35:46.239 --> 0:35:48.880 been trying recently. I just found myself so trapped in 0:35:48.960 --> 0:35:51.040 the news cycle just for my job that I've been 0:35:51.040 --> 0:35:53.400 trying to like read more books and I just you know, 0:35:53.560 --> 0:35:54.920 read novels. 0:35:54.960 --> 0:35:57.319 And but don't you think, like I listened to all 0:35:57.320 --> 0:36:00.640 your podcasts on the way in, and as far as 0:36:00.680 --> 0:36:02.320 you try to get away from them, they all circle 0:36:02.400 --> 0:36:04.319 back to Trump and what's going on now, Like the 0:36:04.360 --> 0:36:06.839 conservative one, it's all it doesn't matter. 0:36:07.080 --> 0:36:09.239 Yeah, as far out as you go, you always get 0:36:09.320 --> 0:36:09.839 sucked back. 0:36:09.760 --> 0:36:11.479 Into that thing like, that's a good point. 0:36:11.520 --> 0:36:12.799 It was like the Middle East and it was all 0:36:12.840 --> 0:36:14.359 about like but then it was like Kushner, what's going 0:36:14.360 --> 0:36:14.919 on in the Middle East? 0:36:14.960 --> 0:36:15.799 Like totally one of them. 0:36:16.080 --> 0:36:18.400 Yeah, no, And I think as we go further, I 0:36:18.440 --> 0:36:19.959 think we want to try to push to go further 0:36:19.960 --> 0:36:21.440 a field. Part of it also is I mean the 0:36:21.840 --> 0:36:23.840 funny thing about that, right, this comes back to this 0:36:23.920 --> 0:36:26.160 question about, you know, the plants growing towards the light. 0:36:26.840 --> 0:36:30.320 So I was like obsessively looking at the podcast numbers 0:36:30.360 --> 0:36:33.200 last night because I'm a crazy, compulsively addicted junkie. 0:36:33.320 --> 0:36:38.440 Sounds like me, Yeah, this is I stopped looking at 0:36:38.440 --> 0:36:43.759 my Metacritic numbers like three months ago. But yeah, at 0:36:43.760 --> 0:36:46.440 one point, man like, well that's sick. 0:36:46.719 --> 0:36:48.000 Say I do it too. 0:36:48.000 --> 0:36:48.560 It's terrible. 0:36:48.640 --> 0:36:51.080 Yeah. Authors, Man, you talk to authors, they sit there 0:36:51.080 --> 0:36:54.319 just hitting refresh on the Amazon ranking and it's like. 0:36:55.080 --> 0:36:56.200 Even give me a start with that ship. 0:36:56.320 --> 0:36:58.920 Yeah, it's crazy. So I was looking at it last night, 0:36:58.960 --> 0:37:02.319 and sure enough, we put out three episodes and one 0:37:02.320 --> 0:37:04.520 of them is one is very explicitly about Trump and 0:37:04.520 --> 0:37:07.200 how he fits into conservatism, and lo and behold that's 0:37:07.200 --> 0:37:10.880 the best performing one, right, which which which is not 0:37:11.160 --> 0:37:13.799 that surprising because the even if there are people I 0:37:13.800 --> 0:37:16.320 think like yourself, and I think that's not an uncommon experience, 0:37:16.400 --> 0:37:20.040 a sort of fatigue, there's also just this insatiable desire 0:37:20.200 --> 0:37:21.480 to try to understand. 0:37:21.960 --> 0:37:23.880 But it also felt like the most relatable. Sorry, it 0:37:23.880 --> 0:37:25.839 felt like the most relatable. The one about conservatism too 0:37:26.040 --> 0:37:27.480 very black and white to me. It was like, this 0:37:27.560 --> 0:37:30.239 is the guy the guy you had on was Yeah, 0:37:30.239 --> 0:37:32.719 it was very explicit about what it felt very clear 0:37:32.760 --> 0:37:32.920 to me. 0:37:33.080 --> 0:37:40.719 Yeah, is it hard to not insert your personal beliefs 0:37:41.440 --> 0:37:45.799 into a situation and being neutral? Because the thing is 0:37:45.840 --> 0:37:50.440 that this is the first time in which I'm seeing 0:37:53.080 --> 0:37:55.319 being neutral being a dangerous thing. 0:37:56.120 --> 0:37:57.359 I mean, I. 0:37:57.320 --> 0:38:00.239 Guess I would. You're not neutral? Yeah, I mean no, 0:38:00.280 --> 0:38:02.040 I know that, But I'm just saying that. Is it 0:38:05.320 --> 0:38:08.400 the days of you know, you not knowing where Walter 0:38:08.480 --> 0:38:18.000 khank this this may take a while, Walter. Yeah, with 0:38:18.120 --> 0:38:21.720 Walter Kronkite or Peter Jennings or whatever, right, the days 0:38:21.760 --> 0:38:27.480 of just asking a question and you you know, Yeah. 0:38:27.320 --> 0:38:29.560 I think that the model that we have that I 0:38:29.640 --> 0:38:32.200 have is that I'm not neutral, that I have a 0:38:32.360 --> 0:38:34.560 set of beliefs in a worldview that people know and 0:38:34.600 --> 0:38:38.319 are familiar with. But we try really hard on the 0:38:38.320 --> 0:38:40.880 show to be what I would say would be fair, 0:38:41.040 --> 0:38:44.000 and to be open minded, to not take cheap shots, 0:38:44.440 --> 0:38:50.399 to not to not just tell ourselves things that feel good, 0:38:50.760 --> 0:38:54.439 to not be hacks. Right, So that, oh, well, this 0:38:54.560 --> 0:38:57.799 Republican was accused of sexual harassment and ergo, that person 0:38:57.920 --> 0:38:59.399 is terrible and we're going to do a hip piece 0:38:59.400 --> 0:39:02.160 segment on them. And then the next day this Democrat 0:39:02.200 --> 0:39:04.080 was accused of sexual harassment. Like we're just going to 0:39:04.160 --> 0:39:06.560 keep that out of the show, Okay. Like the other night, 0:39:06.600 --> 0:39:11.399 for instance, half forty minutes before we went to air, 0:39:11.480 --> 0:39:13.640 Eric Sneiderman, the New York Attorney General, there was a 0:39:13.640 --> 0:39:16.960 piece in New Yorker devastating, horrifying Peace in which he's 0:39:17.000 --> 0:39:22.240 alleged to be this just sort of psychotically disgusting abuser, 0:39:22.280 --> 0:39:24.919 I mean with women in his piece. Yeah, Ronan's piece. 0:39:25.040 --> 0:39:26.440 Yiks, Ronan does man. 0:39:27.320 --> 0:39:29.640 People on the record, women on the record talking about 0:39:29.640 --> 0:39:32.319 this horrible physical and verbal abuse from him. And it 0:39:32.360 --> 0:39:35.600 broke at seven twenty and I was like, we're doing 0:39:35.600 --> 0:39:38.160 this in the show because Eric Snydermann's been on our 0:39:38.160 --> 0:39:43.160 show and it's important that this, we don't. You know, 0:39:43.840 --> 0:39:45.720 if you were a Republican, we do it. IF's a Democrat, 0:39:45.800 --> 0:39:48.160 we do it. So there's a level which like we 0:39:48.320 --> 0:39:52.480 have our worldview, but we also are not just out 0:39:52.520 --> 0:39:54.960 there trying to play for a team, which is really 0:39:54.960 --> 0:39:58.440 important to me, like that we are good faith arbiters 0:39:59.000 --> 0:40:03.080 from the perspective of a set of values as opposed 0:40:03.120 --> 0:40:06.160 to a perspective of one of two tribes or one 0:40:06.160 --> 0:40:07.840 of two colors, or one or two teams. 0:40:08.000 --> 0:40:09.440 But like when you were coming up, we're fairly the 0:40:09.480 --> 0:40:11.160 same age, like you were saying, I feel like Peter 0:40:11.239 --> 0:40:13.480 Jennings and Dan Rather they're all like trying to be 0:40:13.520 --> 0:40:15.520 the face of neutrality and try to present both things. 0:40:15.640 --> 0:40:17.520 When did you decide to really define yourself as being 0:40:17.520 --> 0:40:21.360 liberal because like your Wikipedia page it's as a liberal commentary. 0:40:21.400 --> 0:40:23.279 It's like it feels like that's something you're very proud, 0:40:23.360 --> 0:40:24.000 yeah or whatever. 0:40:24.200 --> 0:40:26.359 Well for me for it started, I mean it went 0:40:26.400 --> 0:40:29.080 the other way. So people people that come up through 0:40:29.120 --> 0:40:31.400 TV have to be neutral, I think as they come up, 0:40:31.440 --> 0:40:34.799 because if you're the you're reading the news in Des 0:40:34.800 --> 0:40:37.880 Moines or in Broward County or wherever you got it, 0:40:37.920 --> 0:40:40.319 that's the way the business model works, and then if 0:40:40.400 --> 0:40:43.480 you know, you work your way up past that and 0:40:43.520 --> 0:40:45.719 you're doing other stuff. For me, I started as just 0:40:46.280 --> 0:40:50.120 a writer writing for explicitly ideological publications where everybody knew. 0:40:50.200 --> 0:40:52.640 So the Nation magazine and In These Times and Chicago 0:40:52.640 --> 0:40:55.160 Reader are a certain extent like they were places where 0:40:55.239 --> 0:40:58.040 that was just part of the social contract with the reader, 0:40:58.560 --> 0:41:01.480 like the reader understood they're getting yeah, yeah, And I 0:41:01.520 --> 0:41:04.040 think you know, I read a lot of a lot 0:41:04.080 --> 0:41:09.200 of different stuff from different ideological corners that I really 0:41:09.320 --> 0:41:12.080 like because to me, the big, the most important thing 0:41:12.120 --> 0:41:16.680 is just to be honest and upfront and not be deceptive. Right, 0:41:16.800 --> 0:41:18.880 So the the sort of sneak attack that kind of 0:41:18.880 --> 0:41:21.480 like oh, well, this is just when you're smuggling stuff 0:41:21.480 --> 0:41:23.200 in and you're not telling him as opposed you're saying like, hey, 0:41:23.239 --> 0:41:26.080 I'm a conservative, and here's why I think you know 0:41:26.440 --> 0:41:29.600 X about the tax cuts or X about our cultural 0:41:29.680 --> 0:41:32.360 rot of Hollywood or whatever it is that's interesting to me, 0:41:32.400 --> 0:41:34.160 and I can I can engage with that. It's the 0:41:34.280 --> 0:41:36.640 it's the it's the bad faith deception that I find 0:41:36.680 --> 0:41:37.520 a little unnerving. 0:41:37.600 --> 0:41:41.440 Well, actually, well, this could lead us into a colony 0:41:41.520 --> 0:41:45.839 and a nation which I always felt that the term 0:41:45.960 --> 0:41:51.160 liberal was sort of a dog whistle turn that conservative 0:41:51.200 --> 0:41:56.319 media has come up with, uh when they describe a 0:41:56.560 --> 0:42:09.120 journalist that considers black people, gay people, brown people, anyone 0:42:09.360 --> 0:42:19.239 not under the white male hetero kind of umbrella as equals. 0:42:19.880 --> 0:42:22.759 Always felt as though that has been the sort of 0:42:22.840 --> 0:42:26.560 dog whistle term of which you you there's there's a 0:42:26.600 --> 0:42:30.000 great part of in chapter four where you really explain 0:42:30.080 --> 0:42:33.759 that the genesis of the idea of white fear and 0:42:33.920 --> 0:42:44.239 that the fear of losing knowing acknowledging that you have 0:42:44.280 --> 0:42:46.960 an advantage and that one day it could be lost. 0:42:47.880 --> 0:42:51.120 And I almost feel as that's where that falls under it. 0:42:51.239 --> 0:42:54.120 So even I mean, I consider when I hear liberal, 0:42:54.160 --> 0:42:58.839 I feel that that's the hidden the hidden four letter 0:42:58.880 --> 0:43:03.640 word that I mean basically is you're telling the truth 0:43:04.120 --> 0:43:07.040 right in my opinion. But of course, like the way 0:43:07.080 --> 0:43:10.640 that we're programming built today that it's it's kind of like, 0:43:11.520 --> 0:43:15.640 you know, you have to preference with you know, I'm 0:43:15.719 --> 0:43:18.719 neutral and I'm that sort of thing. So like, how 0:43:18.760 --> 0:43:20.520 do you feel when you hear that title? 0:43:21.520 --> 0:43:23.880 I don't, you know, it's funny liberal. I never feel 0:43:24.560 --> 0:43:27.239 I don't feel like there's really a great term that 0:43:27.360 --> 0:43:31.200 I feel like I want to embrace. Like liberal doesn't 0:43:31.200 --> 0:43:34.200 feel quite right, progressa doesn't feel quite right, leftist doesn't 0:43:34.239 --> 0:43:35.920 feel None of those feel quite right. I don't know 0:43:35.920 --> 0:43:36.920 what the right term. 0:43:36.760 --> 0:43:39.200 Is, right. What does the Fox journalists call themselves? 0:43:40.239 --> 0:43:44.200 Oh, you know, they say they're unbiased or they're you know, 0:43:44.280 --> 0:43:46.880 I think Sean Hannity calls them. I think that's not true. 0:43:46.960 --> 0:43:49.360 I think Tucker Carls and Sean Hanny, Laura Ingram, they 0:43:49.360 --> 0:43:51.839 would all call themselves conservatives. I think they would say 0:43:51.880 --> 0:43:56.520 that they were conservatives. I I think if I were to, 0:43:57.080 --> 0:43:59.600 you know, my biggest commitment, I would And this is 0:43:59.800 --> 0:44:02.319 a word that you I think sounds annoying if you 0:44:02.360 --> 0:44:04.879 go around calling yourself this but an egalitarian. I mean, 0:44:04.880 --> 0:44:10.560 I'm like, I'm really my worldview is really ordered around 0:44:10.680 --> 0:44:14.759 equality and getting to equality and what a society with real, 0:44:14.880 --> 0:44:17.120 genuine that took a quality seriously it would look like, 0:44:17.440 --> 0:44:19.839 and what that would mean for full human flourishing. I mean, 0:44:20.320 --> 0:44:22.279 you know, it's easy, I think sometimes to lose sight. 0:44:22.280 --> 0:44:24.880 Everything gets so cramped of like what is the project? 0:44:26.200 --> 0:44:28.120 Why are we as humans? Why do we build a 0:44:28.120 --> 0:44:29.960 democratic society, Why do we do any of this? What's 0:44:30.000 --> 0:44:33.799 the idea behind this all? And the idea is to 0:44:33.880 --> 0:44:38.880 facilitate human flourishing. The idea is everybody has an opportunity 0:44:38.880 --> 0:44:42.160 and a chance and is given the tools to flourish, 0:44:42.239 --> 0:44:44.840 to do things they love, to do, things they enjoy, 0:44:45.000 --> 0:44:49.040 to be in relationships that are fulfilling to them, to 0:44:49.160 --> 0:44:52.239 go on vacations and play on the beach. I mean, 0:44:53.120 --> 0:44:55.359 that's the vision here, and there's a bunch of questions 0:44:55.400 --> 0:44:57.239 about how do you get that vision? But to me, 0:44:58.080 --> 0:45:02.200 when we have hierarchies and categorical systems that put some 0:45:02.239 --> 0:45:03.839 people on one side of the line and some people 0:45:03.840 --> 0:45:06.359 on the other of it, whether that's through the way 0:45:06.360 --> 0:45:10.160 the economy works or in the case of colony nation policing, like, 0:45:10.200 --> 0:45:12.520 that's the fundamental thing that I'm taken with that I 0:45:12.560 --> 0:45:16.320 think about, is are those hierarchies and that and getting 0:45:16.360 --> 0:45:18.480 to a quality and sort of ways that we can 0:45:18.560 --> 0:45:19.680 upend those hierarchies. 0:45:19.840 --> 0:45:23.359 When you were a kid, what were your aspirations as 0:45:23.440 --> 0:45:25.359 far as what you thought you were going to do 0:45:26.280 --> 0:45:28.560 as an adult when you were six or seven years old. 0:45:29.320 --> 0:45:30.919 Well, when I was six or seven, I probably wanted 0:45:30.960 --> 0:45:35.399 to be a basketball player. To be honest, that did 0:45:35.440 --> 0:45:39.160 not work out. I was like barely a high school 0:45:39.200 --> 0:45:42.480 varsity basketball player, So I was a long way. 0:45:43.600 --> 0:45:45.160 But that philosophy degree from Brown. 0:45:45.320 --> 0:45:45.600 Yeah. 0:45:45.680 --> 0:45:49.719 Yeah, Weirdly, you know, I knocked around the D League 0:45:49.719 --> 0:45:53.120 for a bit. But no, I would say that the 0:45:53.120 --> 0:45:56.239 two biggest things I thought about was something in some 0:45:56.440 --> 0:46:00.640 kind of way of like, I think I always wanted 0:46:00.680 --> 0:46:02.960 to perform in some ways. And then I think I 0:46:03.000 --> 0:46:05.319 wanted to be I really wanted to be an intellectual, 0:46:05.520 --> 0:46:07.480 even at a really young age, Like I wanted to 0:46:07.520 --> 0:46:12.560 be a professor, you know, I want to be someone 0:46:12.600 --> 0:46:15.320 who learned for a living and wrote books for a 0:46:15.360 --> 0:46:19.080 living and you know, engage with other people about ideas 0:46:19.120 --> 0:46:20.919 and that. I think I wanted to do that even 0:46:20.960 --> 0:46:23.399 when I was really really young, I think seven eight nine, 0:46:23.520 --> 0:46:25.799 probably I wanted to do that. 0:46:25.800 --> 0:46:28.120 That's weird because I feel like I was just forced 0:46:28.120 --> 0:46:32.440 into that position, like forced intellectualism. No, I'm just forced 0:46:32.480 --> 0:46:36.719 into the whatever, the teacher role that people expect me 0:46:36.800 --> 0:46:39.560 to be. Then I was like, well what they what 0:46:39.600 --> 0:46:39.840 did you? 0:46:39.920 --> 0:46:40.640 What did you want to be? 0:46:40.880 --> 0:46:42.560 No, I was I was going to be a musician, 0:46:43.080 --> 0:46:43.640 and then. 0:46:43.480 --> 0:46:46.200 From from from from real young from. 0:46:46.040 --> 0:46:47.919 The age of two. But the thing was is that 0:46:48.120 --> 0:46:51.760 because did you come from my my my my family. 0:46:51.760 --> 0:46:54.680 I came from a musical think think the Black Partes family, 0:46:54.760 --> 0:46:58.879 So I came from that sort of environment. But now 0:46:58.920 --> 0:47:02.279 that I think about it, it's either you're going to 0:47:02.360 --> 0:47:09.719 be a musician and pursue and create art, which I 0:47:09.719 --> 0:47:13.920 think I did. Yeah, but then I get equal amounts 0:47:13.920 --> 0:47:19.279 of pleasure of studying other people's method of making art. 0:47:20.400 --> 0:47:26.600 So it's like, would I rather you know, go batch 0:47:26.640 --> 0:47:29.560 it crazy over watching other people make art and marvel 0:47:29.600 --> 0:47:32.640 over it and figure out the process of value did 0:47:32.640 --> 0:47:36.760 it versus me just doing it myself like my version 0:47:36.760 --> 0:47:39.040 of it. And I actually think that the former is 0:47:39.080 --> 0:47:54.440 what I gravitate towards. So really, uh yeah, yeah. 0:47:49.920 --> 0:47:52.520 I always think to myself, if I could be given 0:47:52.680 --> 0:47:56.400 any power or ability in the world. I mean, the 0:47:56.480 --> 0:47:58.759 honest and lay answer is probably dunk of basketball. But 0:47:59.080 --> 0:48:02.880 if you put that, ah, you put that aside, like 0:48:03.000 --> 0:48:05.840 really dunk, I mean like really, I don't mean like 0:48:05.840 --> 0:48:10.640 they just get me over, like were like trained for 0:48:10.719 --> 0:48:15.320 ten months and I mean like row down down, but 0:48:15.320 --> 0:48:18.080 but that but I would say after that, the number 0:48:18.080 --> 0:48:20.160 one thing would be to like write a great song 0:48:21.200 --> 0:48:23.560 that to me seems like the ultimate superpower, like to 0:48:23.600 --> 0:48:26.319 walk through Earth and being able to do that. 0:48:26.640 --> 0:48:30.080 See, that's weird. I'd rather discover a great song, like in. 0:48:30.000 --> 0:48:31.759 My mind iascinating to me. 0:48:31.880 --> 0:48:36.720 Really, I know somewhere and it's like do I dream 0:48:36.760 --> 0:48:38.919 of Like, Man, I'm gonna write a great song that's 0:48:38.920 --> 0:48:41.839 going to change people's lives, and hey, it's me a 0:48:41.880 --> 0:48:44.080 writing song of the year and I'm holding my grammy. 0:48:44.320 --> 0:48:47.400 I don't have those dreams. My dreams are, man, I 0:48:47.520 --> 0:48:48.919 know in that Prince Fault. 0:48:50.960 --> 0:48:52.080 There's let's be in. 0:48:52.560 --> 0:48:55.279 Yeah, there's at least forty one songs at least of 0:48:55.320 --> 0:48:58.320 those thousands. I know at least there's forty one songs 0:48:58.920 --> 0:49:01.240 that could change my life. 0:49:02.080 --> 0:49:05.200 Gotta get to them like other people's just changed your life, 0:49:05.239 --> 0:49:08.759 my life discovery. You're saying discovery as a bust of creation, and. 0:49:08.719 --> 0:49:11.759 You know what it was? Okay, So when I'll give 0:49:11.760 --> 0:49:17.239 you example, So maybe a month before the Purple Raine 0:49:17.640 --> 0:49:24.640 reissue came out, when quote, my connect gave me, uh 0:49:25.520 --> 0:49:28.480 whatever the whatever the final listening was going to be 0:49:28.520 --> 0:49:31.480 of the extra songs that were making it. He sent 0:49:31.520 --> 0:49:34.360 me a particular song he sent me we can Funk 0:49:35.120 --> 0:49:43.600 or we can fuck uh funk, and I can't describe 0:49:43.640 --> 0:49:45.960 it to you, but in hearing it and knowing that 0:49:46.040 --> 0:49:49.200 song already and heard it and it's different incarnations of 0:49:49.800 --> 0:49:55.040 in boot Bootlegology, at one point for a particular minute, 0:49:55.760 --> 0:50:01.640 I was back to being that thirteen year old that 0:50:02.280 --> 0:50:07.640 there's nothing like staring at the speaker discovering new music 0:50:07.840 --> 0:50:10.920 and how it made you. It just brought me back 0:50:10.960 --> 0:50:16.600 to fifty two to twelve. Oh Sage Avenue and the 0:50:17.200 --> 0:50:20.960 bowl a si My cereal bowl and the color television 0:50:20.960 --> 0:50:24.520 with the set, you know, with the antenna. So yeah, 0:50:24.600 --> 0:50:27.640 it's just like I don't know if maybe, and maybe 0:50:27.640 --> 0:50:30.680 that's why I also obsessed over well, I've explained like 0:50:31.640 --> 0:50:35.120 watch me obsessing over Soul Train isn't necessarily about me 0:50:35.280 --> 0:50:38.200 loving the show Soul Train, but more or less because 0:50:38.960 --> 0:50:42.520 every episode does the synesthesia thing with me that I 0:50:42.640 --> 0:50:48.160 can I know what happened this particular day, I'll make 0:50:48.200 --> 0:50:50.600 it be silly shit, Like the most silliest one was 0:50:50.640 --> 0:50:55.399 like Shalamar's first appearance on the show. Oh, I love 0:50:55.440 --> 0:50:59.040 that one. Shalamar's first appearance on the show in nineteen 0:50:59.120 --> 0:51:07.360 seventy seven triggers off Ah a can of of Pathmark 0:51:07.640 --> 0:51:14.759 no frill spaghetti meatballs with the good stuff. Stop dismissing me, 0:51:14.800 --> 0:51:17.640 Steve in my dreams, I'm just saying. 0:51:20.280 --> 0:51:20.360 No. 0:51:20.440 --> 0:51:23.320 But it's it's it just takes me to a magical 0:51:23.360 --> 0:51:26.360 time in second grade at seven years old. And I 0:51:26.400 --> 0:51:29.520 mean it might be silly, but maybe that's how my 0:51:29.680 --> 0:51:36.760 memories are preserved. Yeah, So it's almost like I don't 0:51:37.360 --> 0:51:43.160 I'm happy with, you know, the Grammys and stuff, but 0:51:43.200 --> 0:51:45.680 maybe that's why they're in my bathroom. Like like I 0:51:45.680 --> 0:51:48.600 don't dream of my own achievements more than I dream 0:51:48.680 --> 0:51:51.200 of preserving my memories. 0:51:51.200 --> 0:51:52.600 But I don't think that's I think you're talking about 0:51:52.640 --> 0:51:55.120 what would be your best super superpower. He was said 0:51:55.120 --> 0:51:57.040 to write a great song. I'm not sure that that's 0:51:57.040 --> 0:51:58.000 answering that right. 0:51:57.880 --> 0:52:00.719 But that's the thing, like I never well, my whole 0:52:00.719 --> 0:52:05.440 point was that I never had those dreams for myself 0:52:05.480 --> 0:52:08.920 more or less discovering other people's great songs. 0:52:08.680 --> 0:52:10.799 Right, and like putting part of tastemaker and putting people 0:52:10.840 --> 0:52:13.160 onto things. I feel like that's your other great thing, 0:52:13.840 --> 0:52:15.799 because we have tastemakers on this show all the time, 0:52:15.840 --> 0:52:17.480 and that to me is always interesting is watching you 0:52:17.520 --> 0:52:20.840 talk to those people because they can define the culture 0:52:20.880 --> 0:52:22.440 and define music and define. 0:52:22.320 --> 0:52:24.640 Don't even know if I'm gonna put see that's why 0:52:24.680 --> 0:52:26.839 that's why Bill is here, Like Bill is my put 0:52:26.880 --> 0:52:30.040 people on, right, But you're kind of just he's like 0:52:30.040 --> 0:52:36.560 you're condo inspired though, or that he's old point. Well yeah, 0:52:36.680 --> 0:52:40.800 but so you're but for you to be a to 0:52:41.239 --> 0:52:43.480 be a teacher at such a young age. 0:52:43.960 --> 0:52:48.520 Like I just really liked you know, I was a kid. 0:52:48.800 --> 0:52:50.440 I grew up in the Bronx in the nineteen eighties. 0:52:50.480 --> 0:52:53.400 My my dad was a community organizer and my mom 0:52:53.719 --> 0:52:56.080 uh stayed home with us and then she did arts 0:52:56.120 --> 0:52:58.120 and education. So I was a real I was like 0:52:58.160 --> 0:53:01.920 a middle class outer borough kid. I went to this 0:53:02.680 --> 0:53:06.560 gifted program that was a Burrow wide gifted program, uh 0:53:07.040 --> 0:53:09.200 in the Bronx in the eighties, which is a fascinating 0:53:09.200 --> 0:53:09.800 group of people. 0:53:10.920 --> 0:53:13.319 Can you explain the because like a lot of us, 0:53:14.120 --> 0:53:16.399 by a lot of us, I mean mean like I'm 0:53:16.440 --> 0:53:17.920 still thinking of come out and. 0:53:18.440 --> 0:53:21.840 Yeah right or right, so yeah, pretty much it was 0:53:22.280 --> 0:53:25.000 basically you look like the Bronx. 0:53:26.000 --> 0:53:28.239 And it's different because even now, like when I went 0:53:28.280 --> 0:53:30.040 to see Michael McDonald in the Bronx. 0:53:31.440 --> 0:53:34.400 Like, I was like, wait a minute, people, you know 0:53:34.440 --> 0:53:36.719 the thing about the thing about the first of all, 0:53:36.800 --> 0:53:39.799 there's a sound stuff New York City. New York City 0:53:39.840 --> 0:53:42.640 is enormous. Each borough is enormous. You're talking about a 0:53:42.719 --> 0:53:45.640 million and a half people somewhere thereabouts. Now, the Bronx 0:53:45.680 --> 0:53:48.319 in the nineteen eighties was in a bad way. I mean, 0:53:48.320 --> 0:53:51.480 my dad's community organizing was basically focused on neighborhoods that 0:53:51.520 --> 0:53:55.279 were bordering the neighborhoods that were literally burning from like 0:53:55.320 --> 0:53:59.680 the Bronx is burning right, so arson disinvestment, huge spike 0:53:59.800 --> 0:54:03.520 in both in crime, in drug addiction, all those things. 0:54:04.520 --> 0:54:06.600 He was doing communit organizing in these neighborhoods that were 0:54:06.600 --> 0:54:08.560 sort of adjacent to those, trying to kind of hold 0:54:08.600 --> 0:54:13.799 the line against this scourge of disinvestment and flight that 0:54:13.840 --> 0:54:17.839 had taken place in the borough. You know, the world 0:54:17.920 --> 0:54:19.920 that I lived in was a really interesting world in 0:54:20.280 --> 0:54:22.840 grade school that I'm forever grateful to because it was 0:54:23.880 --> 0:54:27.799 very multi racial. I mean, the borough is probably, you know, 0:54:28.880 --> 0:54:31.000 twenty five percent white. 0:54:31.200 --> 0:54:32.439 Maybe I never knew. 0:54:32.520 --> 0:54:35.959 Yeah, it's probably like it's seventy or eighty percent black 0:54:36.000 --> 0:54:39.480 and brown. And so the program that the school I 0:54:39.480 --> 0:54:42.000 went to, which was a borough wide program, you know, 0:54:42.360 --> 0:54:44.719 you just got really used to being one of only 0:54:44.760 --> 0:54:48.200 a few white people in spaces all the time in 0:54:48.239 --> 0:54:51.920 school and classes, in dances and all in competitions and 0:54:51.960 --> 0:54:56.520 all that stuff. And I think it was a really 0:54:56.520 --> 0:55:01.640 good formative experience. And you know, for all of the 0:55:02.160 --> 0:55:04.920 bronx Is Burning Warriors all that, you know, it's a 0:55:05.000 --> 0:55:07.160 huge burrow with a huge working middle class. And these 0:55:07.160 --> 0:55:11.399 were people whose parents, you know, owned a bodega, drove 0:55:11.440 --> 0:55:16.279 city buses, worked as bank tellers, you know, you know, 0:55:16.520 --> 0:55:23.120 had working class, middle class jobs and and you know 0:55:23.880 --> 0:55:25.520 it was not a place with a lot of privilege, 0:55:25.560 --> 0:55:29.280 but it was it was a fascinating and then culturally 0:55:29.320 --> 0:55:34.600 explosive universe. I mean we were exposed. I was exposed 0:55:34.600 --> 0:55:35.880 to well, you were you born? I'm sorry, I was 0:55:35.880 --> 0:55:37.120 born nineteen seventy nine. 0:55:37.520 --> 0:55:40.680 So after the hip hop explosion of. 0:55:40.840 --> 0:55:44.439 Yeah, so it wasn't like the you know, DJ cool 0:55:44.520 --> 0:55:50.080 Hirk like apartment party sort of formative years. But I 0:55:50.120 --> 0:55:52.440 do remember my friend Kamal telling me that his cousin 0:55:52.520 --> 0:55:55.240 was in a special ad music video and then showing 0:55:55.280 --> 0:55:56.600 me the dance. 0:55:58.560 --> 0:55:58.879 Very good. 0:55:58.880 --> 0:56:02.680 I have a very live memory of that, but so 0:56:03.160 --> 0:56:06.040 so yeah, and I think that it just was a 0:56:06.200 --> 0:56:09.240 very What was interesting about my upbringing, and my upbringing 0:56:09.239 --> 0:56:12.600 in the Bronx particularly was because of my parents and 0:56:12.719 --> 0:56:14.920 their education level. And then we moved to this neighborhood 0:56:14.920 --> 0:56:16.319 that was more affluent than the one that I grew 0:56:16.400 --> 0:56:18.560 up in. And then I went to a Magnet High 0:56:18.560 --> 0:56:22.680 school in New York City. That's where a bunch of 0:56:22.719 --> 0:56:25.600 people in including Li Mel and Miranda a Moral Technique, 0:56:26.960 --> 0:56:29.840 a whole bunch of different books, Bobby Lopez, who's you know, 0:56:30.040 --> 0:56:32.839 got an egot and wrote Avenue Q and Frozen and 0:56:32.920 --> 0:56:36.640 with his wife and all these really interesting talented people. 0:56:37.160 --> 0:56:39.960 But because of that, I had a very interesting upbringing 0:56:40.040 --> 0:56:42.560 in which I was exposed to, like the full spectrum 0:56:42.560 --> 0:56:47.279 of American class status. So everything from kids in my 0:56:47.320 --> 0:56:50.280 class who were in and out of homelessness, food stamps 0:56:50.800 --> 0:56:55.239 or in housing projects, through people who had fifteen room 0:56:55.320 --> 0:56:59.759 apartments on Park Avenue, from ages, you know, from the 0:56:59.760 --> 0:57:01.360 time I was born to the time I wanted a 0:57:01.360 --> 0:57:06.160 way to college. I had social interactions and saw patches 0:57:06.200 --> 0:57:10.000 of life in each of those different worlds, and that 0:57:10.160 --> 0:57:13.800 was really a huge part of I think my formative experience. 0:57:14.239 --> 0:57:17.520 I don't I don't condone bullying, but still the thought 0:57:17.560 --> 0:57:21.840 of immortal Technique being the school bully to you and women, 0:57:22.000 --> 0:57:28.960 well one of the most hilarious. 0:57:26.360 --> 0:57:27.240 As funny at the time. 0:57:27.280 --> 0:57:30.720 But yes, in retrospect, I think, but that I think 0:57:30.800 --> 0:57:33.400 when I first met you and didn't know that you 0:57:33.480 --> 0:57:36.760 knew Lynn, when you were interviewing this about Hamilton, you 0:57:36.840 --> 0:57:38.720 two told me like, yeah, he used to throw us 0:57:38.720 --> 0:57:42.320 in the trash can, which I was like, one of 0:57:42.320 --> 0:57:48.520 his best stories. I'm sorry, okay for hip hop, for 0:57:48.600 --> 0:57:51.560 hip hop versus like what what verse would you have 0:57:51.600 --> 0:57:52.760 to study in high school? 0:57:53.440 --> 0:57:55.880 The thing they were always making people sing Bucktown. That 0:57:56.000 --> 0:57:59.000 was the that was the thing. It was always singing Bucktown. 0:57:59.000 --> 0:58:00.960 It was like people put people in trash cans of 0:58:01.040 --> 0:58:01.640 making them sing. 0:58:05.160 --> 0:58:08.840 I'm sorry, I don't know why that's one hip hop crime. 0:58:08.920 --> 0:58:12.480 I'll give him a past too. I'm sorry because I 0:58:12.520 --> 0:58:16.920 want to do that to kids now say Bucktown? Dammit? 0:58:18.840 --> 0:58:24.760 Oh god, So leading leading to a colony in a nation, 0:58:27.280 --> 0:58:30.600 why did you feel it was necessary? 0:58:30.800 --> 0:58:30.960 Two? 0:58:31.920 --> 0:58:35.440 Do you see this as sort of a supplement to uh, 0:58:35.600 --> 0:58:39.680 Tanahse coaches uh uh me against the Between the World 0:58:39.680 --> 0:58:42.479 and Me. I'm thinking of Tupac me against the world, 0:58:43.000 --> 0:58:45.640 the same thing. He knows what he meant. 0:58:46.600 --> 0:58:48.520 Yeah, I mean, I think it's I hope it's uh 0:58:48.840 --> 0:58:50.480 I hope it's for a lot of people. I hope 0:58:50.520 --> 0:58:52.920 it's a kind of gateway to a whole, a whole 0:58:53.480 --> 0:58:58.240 massive literature from you know, Racecraft by the by Barbara 0:58:58.240 --> 0:59:00.120 and Karen Fields, and Between the World and Me on 0:59:00.120 --> 0:59:03.919 the Hazie to the Nudrum Crow by Michelle Crowe by 0:59:03.920 --> 0:59:10.200 Michelle Alexander. There's a great book by James former Junior 0:59:10.240 --> 0:59:11.920 that actually won the Pultzer this year. It came out 0:59:12.040 --> 0:59:13.800 right around the same time as a Colony Nation called 0:59:13.840 --> 0:59:16.040 Locking Up Our Own, which is about the politics crime 0:59:16.080 --> 0:59:20.160 punishment in predominantly black neighborhoods and cities, which is a 0:59:20.160 --> 0:59:24.320 really fascinating book, great book. The reason I wrote the 0:59:24.320 --> 0:59:27.040 book was I've always been really interested in criminal justice. 0:59:27.160 --> 0:59:28.640 I think the experience of growing up in New York 0:59:28.680 --> 0:59:31.200 City in the eighties and nineties during the peak of 0:59:31.240 --> 0:59:32.960 the kind of crime boom, I mean nineteen ninety three 0:59:33.080 --> 0:59:36.000 or nineteen nine. Yeah, when I was thirteen I started 0:59:36.040 --> 0:59:39.000 commuting down to Manhattan. You know, New York City's got 0:59:39.040 --> 0:59:41.480 twenty four hundred murders a year. It's got about three 0:59:41.560 --> 0:59:45.240 hundred and fifty last year. So and that's true. All 0:59:45.280 --> 0:59:47.760 index crimes basically were the same, right, All index crimes 0:59:47.800 --> 0:59:50.400 basically reduced by eighty percent from the peak in ninety 0:59:50.400 --> 0:59:52.280 two ninety three when we were when I was a 0:59:52.320 --> 0:59:54.920 thirteen year old walking around getting my starter caps jacked 0:59:55.120 --> 0:59:56.200 like every other day. 0:59:57.200 --> 0:59:58.880 Whoa you've been. 1:00:02.840 --> 1:00:09.680 Oh, yes, yeah, we went to starter car. 1:00:09.840 --> 1:00:11.320 That's my brain went Okay. 1:00:12.000 --> 1:00:14.520 So I wanted to write about it, and I wanted 1:00:14.520 --> 1:00:17.640 to write about I was covering, I was covering Ferguson, 1:00:17.680 --> 1:00:20.680 I was covering Baltimore, Freddie Gray, I was covering uh, 1:00:21.160 --> 1:00:22.800 some of the stuff that went down in Chicago even 1:00:22.800 --> 1:00:27.240 before Lauwan McDonald uh and and our garner here in 1:00:27.280 --> 1:00:29.560 New York. And wanted to kind of write about it, 1:00:29.600 --> 1:00:32.600 and was kind of worried about I think I had 1:00:32.600 --> 1:00:35.080 a moment of is this a book? Is this a 1:00:35.120 --> 1:00:37.480 topic that a white man should write a book about? 1:00:38.160 --> 1:00:41.680 And I think I came to believe that actually, part 1:00:41.720 --> 1:00:44.240 of the problem with the way I think, particularly white 1:00:44.240 --> 1:00:47.760 people think about the system, even if they're sympathetic to 1:00:48.360 --> 1:00:50.480 the aims of say, Black Lives Matter, is that it's 1:00:50.600 --> 1:00:54.760 essentially like some other ancillary problem, Like that's a thing 1:00:54.840 --> 1:00:57.920 that is a problem, Like it's a bad thing, and 1:00:57.960 --> 1:01:02.920 I'm it's a bummer that happens, but I'm not implicated 1:01:02.920 --> 1:01:04.280 in it, and it's like part of the point of the 1:01:04.280 --> 1:01:08.920 book is like, no, you very much are we collectively 1:01:08.920 --> 1:01:11.880 as a democratic society, but particularly as white majorities and 1:01:11.920 --> 1:01:14.520 particularly as white voters, have created this system that puts 1:01:14.520 --> 1:01:16.320 more people in prison than anywhere else in the world 1:01:16.440 --> 1:01:19.040 in a per capita basis. It didn't just come about. 1:01:19.080 --> 1:01:21.840 It wasn't handed down by you know, Moses, and it 1:01:21.880 --> 1:01:24.560 wasn't the product of back room lobbyists. It was actually 1:01:25.680 --> 1:01:28.400 voters going to the polls and voting for people that 1:01:28.480 --> 1:01:31.400 ran really racist ads about getting tough on crimes and 1:01:31.960 --> 1:01:35.520 crack you know, crack thugs and things like that. And 1:01:35.600 --> 1:01:37.560 so part of the project of the book is to say, look, 1:01:38.440 --> 1:01:42.040 you're implicated in the system we all are as democratic citizens, 1:01:42.160 --> 1:01:45.160 and the system that we've built fails to live up 1:01:45.200 --> 1:01:49.280 to the democratic aspirations and promises we have, and so 1:01:49.880 --> 1:01:52.120 we should all be troubled by that, and we should 1:01:52.160 --> 1:01:54.760 all be trying to unbuild that system. And that's that's 1:01:54.800 --> 1:01:57.040 sort of the idea behind why I wanted to write 1:01:57.040 --> 1:01:57.400 the book. 1:01:59.640 --> 1:02:06.200 Well as far as the target audience to whom it 1:02:06.280 --> 1:02:13.600 should hit, how do you how do you propose not 1:02:13.640 --> 1:02:17.000 even reading not even reading your book per se? But 1:02:17.080 --> 1:02:21.280 it's like, how do you even plant the seed in 1:02:21.280 --> 1:02:25.560 people's minds, especially where we the times that we live 1:02:25.560 --> 1:02:33.680 in now, where journalists aren't trusted that much. The idea 1:02:33.680 --> 1:02:37.560 of fake news and liberal media is just oh, you're 1:02:37.600 --> 1:02:39.640 just a liberal and you know, which is like instant 1:02:39.680 --> 1:02:43.320 turn off. So it's like, how do you It's like, okay, 1:02:43.400 --> 1:02:45.000 let me just save the people that are on the 1:02:45.000 --> 1:02:45.600 fence now. 1:02:45.640 --> 1:02:47.480 And I think, you know, it's a good question. 1:02:47.840 --> 1:02:48.080 You know. 1:02:48.600 --> 1:02:50.560 The hope always, I think when you're writing is that 1:02:50.600 --> 1:02:52.840 you can speak to people, whoever they are, if they're 1:02:52.840 --> 1:02:56.960 willing to give you a charitable read the book. It's 1:02:57.000 --> 1:03:00.160 funny I'm watching now this sort of national conversation and 1:03:00.200 --> 1:03:01.760 that started to click in a dear do you see 1:03:01.760 --> 1:03:02.800 the thing about t I? Today? 1:03:03.360 --> 1:03:03.520 No? 1:03:03.600 --> 1:03:04.840 You see this. I was on the way we are 1:03:05.320 --> 1:03:07.520 t I got arrested because someone called the cops on 1:03:07.600 --> 1:03:09.000 him as he was trying to get into his own 1:03:09.040 --> 1:03:11.080 gated community in Atlanta. 1:03:13.400 --> 1:03:16.120 Yeah, no, that that's it's real, because sometimes you don't 1:03:16.120 --> 1:03:17.600 have your code. Yes. 1:03:17.680 --> 1:03:17.760 No. 1:03:17.840 --> 1:03:19.280 And someone was like, who's this dude? 1:03:19.480 --> 1:03:19.760 Right? 1:03:20.280 --> 1:03:23.320 And I think as we're having this natural conversation about 1:03:23.440 --> 1:03:25.440 you know, there's a Starbucks incident, there's there's been a 1:03:25.440 --> 1:03:27.120 bunch of this and I think it's been really really 1:03:27.160 --> 1:03:30.400 he got arrested. There was an ap bulleton as I 1:03:30.440 --> 1:03:32.240 was coming up here saying that t I got arrested 1:03:33.800 --> 1:03:34.960 for breaking into basically bagging. 1:03:35.000 --> 1:03:38.200 It was on that damn. Even the cops come like, 1:03:38.240 --> 1:03:38.960 oh you're t I. 1:03:39.120 --> 1:03:41.240 Yeah, well look I don't know. 1:03:41.480 --> 1:03:42.040 That's horrible. 1:03:42.080 --> 1:03:43.160 Clearly they didn't. 1:03:44.480 --> 1:03:44.840 Thought of it. 1:03:45.280 --> 1:03:48.400 So, you know, the book A Calling Nation like it 1:03:48.520 --> 1:03:50.280 starts and ends on a question of when to call 1:03:50.320 --> 1:03:52.480 the cops. Like the first the first sentence of the 1:03:52.520 --> 1:03:54.040 book is when's the last time you called the cops? 1:03:54.080 --> 1:03:56.520 And the last sentence of the book is recounting a 1:03:56.520 --> 1:03:58.320 story of me being in Prospect Park and taking on 1:03:58.440 --> 1:04:00.560 my phone and considering whether I should die one one one. 1:04:01.520 --> 1:04:04.080 And the reason that I started and ended with that 1:04:04.240 --> 1:04:07.600 is because that is a thing that you know, Ferguson 1:04:08.080 --> 1:04:10.600 or the police shooting people might team abstract to a 1:04:10.640 --> 1:04:14.800 citizen like, well, I'm not a cop, but people call 1:04:14.840 --> 1:04:16.880 the cops a lot. You're You're part of the link 1:04:16.880 --> 1:04:20.040 in the chain, and I think it's really important we're 1:04:20.080 --> 1:04:23.560 having this discussion right now. We I think primarily white people, 1:04:23.720 --> 1:04:26.560 and I think people that you know don't want to 1:04:27.040 --> 1:04:30.640 end up screwing people over about like when should you 1:04:30.680 --> 1:04:31.560 call the cops? 1:04:31.720 --> 1:04:31.880 Right? 1:04:32.280 --> 1:04:34.080 Should you call the cops because someone has been in 1:04:34.120 --> 1:04:37.520 a Starbucks or two minutes or that people are going 1:04:37.520 --> 1:04:40.200 too slowly on the golf course? Like I don't think so. 1:04:40.320 --> 1:04:42.240 I think you should not call the cops. I think 1:04:42.280 --> 1:04:44.360 you should not call the cops unless someone's life is 1:04:44.400 --> 1:04:47.800 in danger. Basically, well, you know, if there is violence 1:04:47.840 --> 1:04:50.560 imminent or that you witnessed, if there is a danger 1:04:51.120 --> 1:04:53.880 that you're witnessing, she should call nine one one. 1:04:54.360 --> 1:04:56.440 Short of that, I think a lot of the times 1:04:56.520 --> 1:04:59.320 cops are used because people are generally just afraid of 1:04:59.520 --> 1:05:00.440 conference conflict. 1:05:00.440 --> 1:05:03.200 They don't want to say oh they of course, of course, 1:05:03.240 --> 1:05:05.760 it's so much easier. I mean, and that's what you 1:05:05.840 --> 1:05:07.960 do my fighting for me, Like yeah, and the first 1:05:08.000 --> 1:05:09.680 example I gave in the book is called the Last 1:05:09.680 --> 1:05:12.520 time I did call the cops was one watching a 1:05:12.680 --> 1:05:16.040 guy basically intimidate sort of threaten his girlfriend on the 1:05:16.040 --> 1:05:20.200 street and screaming at her. And yeah, I didn't want 1:05:20.200 --> 1:05:22.520 to go out there and be like, hey, you, what 1:05:22.560 --> 1:05:23.000 are you doing? 1:05:23.280 --> 1:05:24.520 Get your hands off of her? 1:05:24.600 --> 1:05:28.120 Like George, I was like, no, I'm going to make 1:05:28.120 --> 1:05:28.600 a phone call. 1:05:33.960 --> 1:05:41.480 There's also there's there's a part of the book in 1:05:41.520 --> 1:05:46.600 which he explained that which I'm actually shocked at the 1:05:46.680 --> 1:05:50.680 fact that you were explaining about you coming home from 1:05:50.720 --> 1:05:56.280 a school dance and uh, you got accost it by 1:05:56.840 --> 1:06:05.640 some undesirables go fugs, And somehow I was like wow, 1:06:05.800 --> 1:06:09.120 Like that would have instantly changed my mind, because even 1:06:09.240 --> 1:06:13.800 my even my head to this day, when I visit 1:06:13.880 --> 1:06:17.680 my childhood home, I'm still looking for Big Reggie and 1:06:17.720 --> 1:06:22.240 his cousin Lamar. Yep, Like I'm certain, and I hate 1:06:22.280 --> 1:06:24.880 to say this, I'm certain they're dead by now, which 1:06:24.960 --> 1:06:26.000 I shouldn't. 1:06:25.560 --> 1:06:28.000 Say this, but no, it's still there. 1:06:28.120 --> 1:06:31.120 Even in getting out of my car, like as a 1:06:31.240 --> 1:06:34.560 near fifty year old, my first thing I thought about 1:06:34.720 --> 1:06:37.680 was Big Reggie Lamar might be down a black tag 1:06:37.720 --> 1:06:41.160 Reggie hey Man taking someone's pack man money is some 1:06:41.200 --> 1:06:46.560 big shit back in the early agies. So yeah, you know, 1:06:46.800 --> 1:06:52.200 like that one incident at the arcade in my childhood 1:06:52.320 --> 1:06:56.760 has almost scarred me for life where I'm always looking, 1:06:56.880 --> 1:07:00.880 you know, shell shocked and the fact that that happened 1:07:00.880 --> 1:07:03.120 to you, and I thought like, wow, at no point 1:07:03.160 --> 1:07:05.720 were you just like dad, why the hell are we 1:07:05.840 --> 1:07:08.840 up here? And I should be living this life of 1:07:09.160 --> 1:07:11.240 you know, and I don't know if the P word 1:07:11.360 --> 1:07:13.479 is a four letter word to white people to say 1:07:13.520 --> 1:07:16.480 like privileged or anything, but like we don't have to 1:07:16.520 --> 1:07:20.080 live here that like what why did you not ever? 1:07:21.280 --> 1:07:22.560 Actually what made you. 1:07:24.080 --> 1:07:24.160 It? 1:07:24.360 --> 1:07:26.440 You know, come to this point of understanding if most 1:07:26.480 --> 1:07:27.720 people don't do that, I. 1:07:27.680 --> 1:07:30.200 Think that, yeah, there's a lot of you know, we 1:07:30.200 --> 1:07:32.600 were scared all the time and we we got And 1:07:32.680 --> 1:07:35.040 part of that was I think that was true of 1:07:35.080 --> 1:07:38.440 every teenager in New York City at that at that age, 1:07:38.880 --> 1:07:41.720 like you just that happened, you got jacked, like run 1:07:41.760 --> 1:07:46.520 your loot, run your bus pass, you know, jacket, backpack, starter, 1:07:46.520 --> 1:07:49.800 a cap whatever, you know. I think part of it 1:07:49.920 --> 1:07:54.560 was at the same time that was happening the ethos 1:07:54.600 --> 1:07:57.480 at my high school and at my middle school and 1:07:57.520 --> 1:07:59.720 even in grade school. Although more when you're an adolescent, 1:07:59.720 --> 1:08:03.520 you're thinkinking about like what's cool. Everything that was cool 1:08:03.600 --> 1:08:09.120 was urban. Everything that was cool was emanated from communities 1:08:09.120 --> 1:08:12.360 of color, like like the center, the center of gravity 1:08:12.400 --> 1:08:15.280 of everything culturally, of the worldview of what we wanted 1:08:15.320 --> 1:08:17.360 to be, of the music we listened to. Everything was 1:08:17.920 --> 1:08:21.880 it was non white, right, So it there And I 1:08:21.880 --> 1:08:24.560 think there's ways that you that can get real pathological 1:08:24.800 --> 1:08:28.120 and kind of fetishistic, you know, in the in certain ways. 1:08:28.439 --> 1:08:32.000 But our experience of it, I think was just that, Yeah, 1:08:32.000 --> 1:08:33.880 that was just part of being in the city. But 1:08:33.920 --> 1:08:36.120 the city was great and we were urban kids and 1:08:36.160 --> 1:08:38.320 that's what mattered, and that was the kind of cultural 1:08:38.320 --> 1:08:39.200 world we inhabited. 1:08:39.920 --> 1:08:41.519 So do you that was just a part of growing 1:08:41.600 --> 1:08:42.280 up in New York? 1:08:42.439 --> 1:08:45.080 Yeah, I mean it stressed me out a lot. It definitely, 1:08:45.080 --> 1:08:47.880 like I spent a lot of time scared. I really did. 1:08:47.920 --> 1:08:50.160 I walked around the city all the time. You know, 1:08:50.320 --> 1:08:52.439 My brother tells this hilarious story because when I was 1:08:52.439 --> 1:08:54.200 telling him about the book, he was talking about how, 1:08:55.000 --> 1:08:57.240 you know, we would all work, everyone wore jan sports 1:08:57.720 --> 1:09:00.000 and the style was that you wore them like hitting 1:09:00.040 --> 1:09:02.640 against your butt, like the with the you know, they 1:09:02.680 --> 1:09:04.479 were all the way low on you, like the the 1:09:04.680 --> 1:09:09.040 the loop was as big as possible, but that if 1:09:09.080 --> 1:09:11.400 you were about if something was about to go down, 1:09:11.520 --> 1:09:15.760 you would like preparatorily grab the straps and pull them 1:09:15.840 --> 1:09:18.200 up to tighten because you were going to have to 1:09:18.280 --> 1:09:20.080 book it and you didn't want to. 1:09:24.400 --> 1:09:28.640 Indiana, I'm having flashbacks right now, Like Bill, you're like 1:09:28.720 --> 1:09:31.240 seven ft tall. Didn't matter, just. 1:09:31.120 --> 1:09:33.880 The moment, the moment right before was going to go 1:09:33.920 --> 1:09:37.160 down was always like strap them up, like pull the 1:09:37.320 --> 1:09:39.400 pull the straps on the on the jan sports you could. 1:09:39.240 --> 1:09:42.800 Book, so you couldn't book. 1:09:44.439 --> 1:09:47.200 So you you you? 1:09:48.880 --> 1:09:49.960 Thanks? Steve? 1:09:50.120 --> 1:09:53.200 What justo? 1:09:54.720 --> 1:09:58.000 Yes, I get it. 1:09:58.000 --> 1:09:59.760 It's like when I say when I call my CA 1:10:00.080 --> 1:10:05.200 wife boo and the millennials in my office, what. 1:10:06.000 --> 1:10:07.280 Book is much older than? 1:10:07.479 --> 1:10:09.360 Yeah? 1:10:09.840 --> 1:10:15.320 You you explained how you know? Because you're saying that 1:10:15.320 --> 1:10:18.680 at one point crime was at an all time high 1:10:18.720 --> 1:10:24.519 and then suddenly it stopped. And now, as a New 1:10:25.080 --> 1:10:30.600 New Yorker, I always wondered about that because when I 1:10:30.720 --> 1:10:32.920 first arrived in New York City. 1:10:34.280 --> 1:10:35.160 When did you move here? 1:10:35.960 --> 1:10:39.920 Well, okay, i'd moved here in two thousand and nine, 1:10:40.120 --> 1:10:44.040 which I mean gentrification. They're already taken over. But I'm 1:10:44.080 --> 1:10:48.160 talking about when we as a group first started to 1:10:48.240 --> 1:10:50.160 record up here. I mean, we would stay here, but 1:10:51.200 --> 1:10:53.559 I mean I guess technically maybe I have lived here 1:10:53.600 --> 1:10:56.799 for twenty five years and just haven't admitted it. Yeah. 1:10:57.120 --> 1:11:02.639 But but the thing was is that when we first moved, 1:11:02.840 --> 1:11:07.240 ironically on forty sixth Street where Hamilton is right now, 1:11:10.160 --> 1:11:14.920 everyone kept complaining about like the Disney the disneyfied occasion 1:11:15.040 --> 1:11:18.000 of Times Square, which I didn't know any better, Like 1:11:18.040 --> 1:11:21.680 I didn't get that they were longing for what was 1:11:22.479 --> 1:11:24.320 I didn't and I didn't even know that was there. 1:11:24.400 --> 1:11:26.200 And I was like, wait, this is great, Like it's 1:11:26.320 --> 1:11:29.679 it's like a mall, and there's y Roger's Chicken across 1:11:29.680 --> 1:11:31.479 the street, and there's the McDonald's over there, and there's 1:11:31.479 --> 1:11:33.599 a movie theater, Like this is really awesome. And people 1:11:33.600 --> 1:11:39.599 were like everyone complained about that happening. And then even 1:11:39.640 --> 1:11:49.040 more recently and looking for homeless people, I discovered that 1:11:49.760 --> 1:11:55.320 they've all been moved out of Manhattan, So why were 1:11:55.360 --> 1:11:58.800 you looking for homeless people? I did. We did a 1:11:58.840 --> 1:12:01.639 photo shoot in which they ordered way too much food 1:12:02.040 --> 1:12:05.280 and the interns were about to throw like twenty boxes 1:12:05.280 --> 1:12:08.280 of pizza away perfectly good. And I was like, nah, 1:12:08.320 --> 1:12:10.200 let's let's get him to the homeless. But then it 1:12:10.320 --> 1:12:13.840 was like a two hour search for Yeah, like I 1:12:13.880 --> 1:12:18.160 found people in Brooklyn at a near a shelter, but 1:12:19.640 --> 1:12:21.479 at forty second Street. When I was going through the 1:12:21.479 --> 1:12:24.080 bus station, the cop was like, what's loft? I was like, 1:12:24.120 --> 1:12:27.920 I didn't do it, but and I hit him. I 1:12:27.960 --> 1:12:31.280 was like, yo, I said, I thought I'd come here 1:12:31.320 --> 1:12:34.760 with you know, the bus station, but where the where 1:12:34.800 --> 1:12:37.120 the people at? And they kind of laughed at each 1:12:37.160 --> 1:12:40.120 other like a joke, like in't that cute? It said noah, man, 1:12:40.160 --> 1:12:42.439 you ain't gonna find nothing down here. And I was 1:12:42.479 --> 1:12:45.880 like what happened to them? And he kind of leveled 1:12:45.880 --> 1:12:48.080 with me. He's a black dude, so you just level 1:12:48.120 --> 1:12:50.280 with me, like, yeah, dog, they don't want homeless the 1:12:50.320 --> 1:12:54.000 more like they up and like past the Bronx like 1:12:54.360 --> 1:12:57.800 in Yonkers. And I was just like, oh, so it 1:12:57.880 --> 1:13:00.760 wasn't because when people say those that's like, you know, 1:13:00.800 --> 1:13:03.000 crime is going down in homelessness, and da da da 1:13:03.080 --> 1:13:07.000 da da. You're made to think like suddenly, like you know, 1:13:07.120 --> 1:13:10.479 there are more jobs and people and less crime because 1:13:10.479 --> 1:13:14.040 people were more moral. But no, like either people have 1:13:14.040 --> 1:13:19.800 been killed or thrown in jail or just displaced and 1:13:19.880 --> 1:13:23.400 put Yeah, he explained about the one way ticket system 1:13:23.439 --> 1:13:26.200 that I never knew about. There was a period in 1:13:27.040 --> 1:13:30.439 I think two thousand and one where if they put 1:13:30.479 --> 1:13:33.240 you on a plane or a bus and someone's on 1:13:33.280 --> 1:13:36.160 the other side to get you, that's how they got 1:13:36.200 --> 1:13:39.679 rid of you, which isn't necessarily fixing the situation either. 1:13:40.000 --> 1:13:42.600 Yeah, there's two things about I think the way the 1:13:42.600 --> 1:13:45.240 city changed. One is that it really did get less dangerous. 1:13:45.720 --> 1:13:47.479 But then there's this ambient thing I talk about in 1:13:47.520 --> 1:13:49.479 the book of just like seediness, and that was such 1:13:49.479 --> 1:13:51.800 a part of what the experience of New York was, 1:13:51.840 --> 1:13:55.280 which was a little related to the threat of danger, 1:13:55.360 --> 1:13:57.920 but also just this kind of ambient thing of there 1:13:57.920 --> 1:14:00.200 were squeegee men. It would come and there were a 1:14:00.240 --> 1:14:02.280 lot of panhandlers, and there were people all the time 1:14:02.360 --> 1:14:04.920 who were kind of like quasi living in subway stations, 1:14:04.920 --> 1:14:06.680 and it had this feeling. You see a lot of 1:14:06.680 --> 1:14:08.760 discourse about this around San Francisco right now, and they're 1:14:08.760 --> 1:14:10.920 constantly writing about that, like, oh, there's all these drug addicts. 1:14:10.960 --> 1:14:12.880 It was all these homeless and New York City was 1:14:12.960 --> 1:14:15.439 very much had that feeling to it, and it was 1:14:15.479 --> 1:14:19.080 a real it was a real thing, and this sense 1:14:19.120 --> 1:14:21.880 of like cleaning it up, which is very loaded politically 1:14:22.040 --> 1:14:25.400 in terms of what it means and for whom, particularly 1:14:25.400 --> 1:14:27.920 in Manhattan, right, I mean particularly it's like, well, we've 1:14:28.160 --> 1:14:30.120 we're going to clean up Midtown, We're going to clean 1:14:30.160 --> 1:14:32.599 up Downtown, clean up the financial district, clean up Brian Park. 1:14:32.640 --> 1:14:35.960 That was all this very much kind of business oriented thing, 1:14:36.160 --> 1:14:39.559 much more than you know, communities coming together because they 1:14:39.600 --> 1:14:42.639 wanted it for their neighborhood. But one of the complicated 1:14:42.640 --> 1:14:46.280 things about this, right is that folks who live in 1:14:46.320 --> 1:14:49.000 neighborhoods don't love a bunch of people hanging out outside 1:14:49.000 --> 1:14:52.120 of liquor store either. A lot of times, like it's 1:14:52.160 --> 1:14:56.200 not always just this external thing of you know, the 1:14:56.240 --> 1:14:59.599 business district or this power structure from outside. There's always 1:14:59.640 --> 1:15:01.679 this is one of the things that James Warmer Junior 1:15:01.680 --> 1:15:03.240 talks about in his book Locking Up Our Own is 1:15:03.280 --> 1:15:06.559 like the internal dynamics of neighborhoods about who's you know. 1:15:06.720 --> 1:15:10.599 I'm sorry side note, I kind of missed the neighborhood whino. 1:15:11.760 --> 1:15:14.280 I haven't seen a good whino in about twenty years. 1:15:14.320 --> 1:15:16.639 Like you've been searching the wrong place, apparently, ah Man, 1:15:16.920 --> 1:15:19.360 I just missed the neighborhood whino. I'm sorry, Go ahead, Chris. 1:15:19.760 --> 1:15:22.400 So. So, there was a real transformation that happened in 1:15:22.400 --> 1:15:25.839 the city and the experience of it, and that experience 1:15:25.920 --> 1:15:28.080 was that was a very intentional thing that was done 1:15:28.080 --> 1:15:31.120 by Giuliani and then Bloomberg Broken Windows. I write about 1:15:31.120 --> 1:15:33.479 in the book, like this whole thing about how there's 1:15:33.520 --> 1:15:36.400 a whole theory that there's a relationship between those two 1:15:36.400 --> 1:15:39.360 things that if people are jumping turnstyles, it sends a 1:15:39.360 --> 1:15:42.840 message to everyone else that lawlessness is okay, and then 1:15:42.880 --> 1:15:45.080 you get lots of murder and that that was the argument, 1:15:46.040 --> 1:15:48.360 and a lot of people it wasn't a bad faith argument. 1:15:48.360 --> 1:15:51.400 I think people really believe that argument. But what ended 1:15:51.479 --> 1:15:55.920 up happening is the city starts enforcing these low level 1:15:56.200 --> 1:16:00.000 misdemeanor things, selling em and ms on the subway, jumping turnstyles, YadA, YadA, YadA. 1:16:00.120 --> 1:16:01.639 You can't tell eminem's on the subway. 1:16:01.680 --> 1:16:04.120 No more people, people, those little kids, people get citations, 1:16:04.120 --> 1:16:05.960 for selling emms on the subway every day and you're 1:16:06.000 --> 1:16:08.280 setting their feet up on us or putting their feet 1:16:08.360 --> 1:16:09.599 up or doing the showtime thing. 1:16:09.640 --> 1:16:14.920 Oh yeah, no more performances. Move up, move. Steve prevents 1:16:14.960 --> 1:16:17.040 me from getting on the subway, so I would have. Actually, 1:16:18.680 --> 1:16:21.120 I suggested that he and I take the subway down there, 1:16:21.120 --> 1:16:23.080 and Steve has this thing in his mind where he 1:16:23.120 --> 1:16:24.200 has to be my protector. 1:16:24.439 --> 1:16:28.280 It's not the most pleasant place to be. You know, wait, 1:16:28.360 --> 1:16:30.559 celebrity right if that's I've. 1:16:30.439 --> 1:16:33.639 Been the subway with him and like nobody I rode 1:16:33.640 --> 1:16:35.640 a celebrity with a tuxedo on with the rest of 1:16:35.640 --> 1:16:36.759 the roots and no one bothered. 1:16:37.080 --> 1:16:39.640 Really, it was like Obama was Do you see that 1:16:39.680 --> 1:16:42.400 instagram is instagram of the when the Cavs are in town. 1:16:42.400 --> 1:16:44.880 Do you see that? Was pretty funny They got where 1:16:44.920 --> 1:16:46.320 they were on the subway. They were on the subway 1:16:46.360 --> 1:16:48.679 like it was like the whole Calves squad and taking 1:16:48.680 --> 1:16:51.000 the subway to Madison's Square Garden when they were in 1:16:51.000 --> 1:16:53.759 town to play the next and I forget what happened, 1:16:53.760 --> 1:16:56.000 but Lebron is definitely on there. He's got a hoodie on, 1:16:56.360 --> 1:16:59.160 and I think no one recognized I'm pretty sure no 1:16:59.160 --> 1:17:01.920 one recognized them, but it was. It's a really funny, 1:17:01.960 --> 1:17:04.080 like there's there's a woman next to Lebron I think, 1:17:04.080 --> 1:17:05.840 who's kind of like making a face because they're like 1:17:05.880 --> 1:17:08.160 acting the fool a little bit right, and and and 1:17:08.200 --> 1:17:09.880 she doesn't like them acting up. That has no idea 1:17:09.920 --> 1:17:11.439 that she's next to like literally one of the most 1:17:11.439 --> 1:17:12.360 famous people on earth. 1:17:12.439 --> 1:17:15.800 Right, see, let's think it. 1:17:16.240 --> 1:17:20.120 That's a squad of eight foot black guys. And instead 1:17:20.120 --> 1:17:23.360 of me and you on the suburb, it's a different thing. 1:17:23.320 --> 1:17:29.280 Big steven little yeah, little mirror protection. So where do 1:17:29.360 --> 1:17:33.040 you see? Do you see an end of the this nightmare? 1:17:36.479 --> 1:17:38.439 But the thing is the nightmare ends. 1:17:38.479 --> 1:17:42.920 But if the nightmare ends, then we won't watch the news. 1:17:43.320 --> 1:17:47.080 I'm not saying you yourself like, thanks, well, didn't let's 1:17:47.080 --> 1:17:51.360 move us to like the country for us? Yeah? Yeah, 1:17:51.439 --> 1:17:51.840 I don't. 1:17:52.200 --> 1:17:54.240 I don't know. I don't know the answer. I don't 1:17:54.240 --> 1:17:55.960 know how it ends. I really don't. I think everyone 1:17:56.080 --> 1:17:56.719 so you don't. 1:17:56.520 --> 1:17:58.880 Have a vision of your head of like, okay, so 1:17:59.680 --> 1:18:01.920 you know you gotta check your phone every twelve seconds 1:18:01.920 --> 1:18:02.400 to see. 1:18:02.200 --> 1:18:06.760 If Michael Cone got indicted. No he didn't. I'm saying 1:18:06.840 --> 1:18:11.599 check my phone, dude. I'm like, really, actually many Pettien's 1:18:11.600 --> 1:18:14.240 come back and tell us he'll sing it. 1:18:15.640 --> 1:18:21.280 But do you have but do you sorry, I'm all, 1:18:23.160 --> 1:18:26.240 do you have this vision of like all of them 1:18:26.320 --> 1:18:27.759 getting arrested in slow motion? 1:18:27.960 --> 1:18:30.840 And yeah, I mean, look, I think everybody has their 1:18:30.880 --> 1:18:34.000 own kind of fantasies about how it all ends. And 1:18:34.720 --> 1:18:36.320 you know, I think there's some I feel like it's 1:18:36.320 --> 1:18:39.879 going to happen. But I here's my can I my 1:18:39.640 --> 1:18:41.479 my my thing about this, which is a little school 1:18:41.520 --> 1:18:43.519 marmish but I'll I'll do it anyway, which is that 1:18:44.640 --> 1:18:47.320 I think people want some deliverance. They want a White Knight, 1:18:47.320 --> 1:18:49.479 they want a Dais X Machino. They want some way 1:18:49.479 --> 1:18:51.519 to be rescued. They want the bad guys to get 1:18:51.520 --> 1:18:54.040 carted away. They want Bob Muller to sort of ride 1:18:54.080 --> 1:18:56.400 in and slay the dragon. And my thing about this, 1:18:56.439 --> 1:18:59.639 which is the same theme of the book, is it's 1:18:59.680 --> 1:19:02.519 just in a democracy, like it's just us, it's us 1:19:02.520 --> 1:19:05.400 as citizens, it's we. No one's going to do it 1:19:05.439 --> 1:19:09.880 for you the work, like that's just the way it works. 1:19:09.880 --> 1:19:12.759 It's the hard thing about democracies is they they're fricking 1:19:13.000 --> 1:19:16.560 They take a lot of exertion to make them work. Well, 1:19:16.720 --> 1:19:19.599 you can outsource all that shit, you can say. I'm 1:19:19.640 --> 1:19:21.559 you know, I trust these people in charge are just 1:19:21.560 --> 1:19:22.600 going to do it. I'm going to show up to 1:19:22.680 --> 1:19:25.120 vote or maybe even not vote, but at the minimum, 1:19:25.120 --> 1:19:26.679 just show up and vote and be like okay. 1:19:27.960 --> 1:19:30.719 But so even in the hands of a storm. 1:19:30.720 --> 1:19:34.200 He's a lawyer, Mike Michae Lavanati. He's a great character. 1:19:35.000 --> 1:19:37.280 Your eyes at him, but do you not feel as 1:19:37.320 --> 1:19:38.120 though he has traction? 1:19:38.360 --> 1:19:40.400 He's got traction, man, Dude, do your thing. Dude, I 1:19:40.400 --> 1:19:42.840 don't like I don't begrudge anyone anything. Everyone's doing all 1:19:42.880 --> 1:19:46.519 this stuff. I'm just saying the ending will. I think 1:19:46.520 --> 1:19:49.240 the ending will be written by us collectively as a society, 1:19:49.479 --> 1:19:53.840 as opposed to some squad of elliot ness untouchables that 1:19:53.880 --> 1:19:56.720 bring down the ring. And even though even though I 1:19:56.720 --> 1:20:00.200 think that there's a possibility that Bob Muller does, I 1:20:00.200 --> 1:20:01.840 can dit a lot of people. Don't get me wrong, 1:20:02.160 --> 1:20:04.320 I think they probably. I think people in the president's 1:20:04.320 --> 1:20:07.599 circle definitely committed crimes that's already been established, but even 1:20:07.600 --> 1:20:11.000 worse than we know. I just think that in a 1:20:11.920 --> 1:20:14.360 deeper sense of will it be okay? The answer to 1:20:14.400 --> 1:20:17.479 that question lies of us as opposed to. 1:20:18.680 --> 1:20:22.599 Do you believe that Mahler is all right? To compare 1:20:22.640 --> 1:20:27.960 this to like a police drama instead of arresting the 1:20:28.040 --> 1:20:33.320 corner boy, okay, instead of arresting the corner boy and 1:20:34.520 --> 1:20:39.840 his drug dealer boss, that Mahler is actually trying to 1:20:39.920 --> 1:20:43.640 cast a widen est amongst anyone involved, Like this is 1:20:43.680 --> 1:20:46.320 a bigger story, even bigger than Trump being president. 1:20:46.400 --> 1:20:49.280 I think he has gone All indications from the outside 1:20:49.320 --> 1:20:50.760 is that he has gone about this in both a 1:20:50.760 --> 1:20:52.800 methodical way and in the kind of way that you 1:20:52.800 --> 1:20:57.000 would attempt to go after or roll up in organize 1:20:57.000 --> 1:21:00.720 crime ring. And I think that's been pretty clear. I 1:21:00.720 --> 1:21:03.040 mean the stories, the craziest stories to me are the 1:21:03.040 --> 1:21:07.960 international stories where you know, some oligarch shows up on 1:21:08.000 --> 1:21:09.840 a private jet and Kennedy and gets off the plane 1:21:09.880 --> 1:21:12.880 and it's like, excuse me, sir, with the FBI, come 1:21:12.920 --> 1:21:15.360 with us and like search his phones, question on that 1:21:15.400 --> 1:21:17.920 whole thing. And that's happened multiple times to multiple people. 1:21:18.640 --> 1:21:21.080 They've got agents working overseas, so you know there's a 1:21:21.120 --> 1:21:23.439 lot going on in that. I don't I don't know 1:21:23.479 --> 1:21:25.680 what ultimately that will bear out, but I do have 1:21:25.720 --> 1:21:28.280 a fair amount of faith in the in the diligence 1:21:28.320 --> 1:21:30.640 with which they're approaching that job. I just don't know. 1:21:31.479 --> 1:21:33.519 Okay, So in your version, this is my last question 1:21:33.560 --> 1:21:36.320 in your version of all the presidents have been who's 1:21:36.360 --> 1:21:41.480 playing you in the movie? And I'm slowly. 1:21:42.880 --> 1:21:47.920 Good, good, Who's who's playing you? 1:21:49.280 --> 1:21:58.759 There you go, ladies and gentlemen, Thank yoursees for hopefully 1:21:58.840 --> 1:22:01.680 not to traumatize right now. I won't be at a 1:22:01.880 --> 1:22:06.400 boss Bill, imday, Bill and sucer Steve. This is a 1:22:07.360 --> 1:22:10.720 Questlove Quest, Love Supreme, only on Pandora. We will see 1:22:10.720 --> 1:22:25.240 you over the next go round. H course. 1:22:25.320 --> 1:22:29.280 Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This classic episode 1:22:29.360 --> 1:22:30.160 was produced by. 1:22:30.080 --> 1:22:31.560 The team at Pandora. 1:22:37.200 --> 1:22:40.479 For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 1:22:40.720 --> 1:22:43.759 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.