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Speaker 1: Of Course Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This

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Speaker 1: classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora.

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Speaker 2: Hey, this is on paid Bill.

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Speaker 3: This week's QLs classic features journalist, author, and host of

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Speaker 3: NBC's All In with Chris Haes. We discussed politics, We

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Speaker 3: discussed hip hop, We discuss the Upper east Side. Originally

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Speaker 3: released on July fourth, twenty eighteen, Enjoy, We'll hold.

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Speaker 2: Your hand through the process. It's good.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, It's all good.

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Speaker 5: Sume su Suprema Roll Call, Suprema Suprema Roll Call, Suprema

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Speaker 5: S Suprema Roll Call, Suprema S sub Suprema roll.

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Speaker 2: Cruse is here.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, to explain the fear. Yeah of why panic? Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I hear in the rear mirror.

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Speaker 6: Suprema Sun Sun Suprema roll Call, Suprema Supremo roll Call.

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Speaker 7: The World's a mess. Yeah, these are the days. Yeah,

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Speaker 7: to be all in. Yeah with the Sugar Network.

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Speaker 6: Suprema Suprema roll Call, Supreema Suprema Roll.

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Speaker 2: Called, Ivanka Trump, Yeah, opens Embassy.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Film at eight pm. Yeah on MSNBC.

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Speaker 6: Roll Call, Supreme Son, Son Suprema Roll Call, Suprema Son Sun, Suprema.

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Speaker 2: Roll Called, pay Bill. Yeah, and here's my stick. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know it's time, yeah for politics super Suprema roll called,

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Speaker 2: Supreme roll call.

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Speaker 4: It's been a while, yeah, since I had the rhyme. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I'm sitting here, Yeah, just watching the time ro Suprema.

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Speaker 6: Son set Suprema roll call, Supremat Suprema roll Suprema su

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Speaker 6: Suprema roll call, Suprema Sun Sun Suprema roll call.

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Speaker 2: Now see, it wasn't that bad.

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Speaker 4: Not not too bad, not too bad.

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Speaker 3: Okay, listen quest of Supreme brus.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Wait, can I ask a technical question about our theme? Yeah? Okay?

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Speaker 2: Do you not hear any time it's the third person's

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Speaker 2: turn to Ryan normally to you when Fante is here?

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Speaker 2: Do you not hear the sound of parking? Uh?

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Speaker 3: That's just on the track, literally really literally every time

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Speaker 3: in the background noise.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, the next time we do the theme song,

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Speaker 2: I guess when we recorded.

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Speaker 7: The recordings fucked up? Remember remember when the engineer, Oh yeah.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, and in between if you if if nobody's rhyming,

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Speaker 8: you can hear your guide in the background's leaking through.

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Speaker 2: Right, But at what point was I in a car

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Speaker 2: reverse driving to here? Yeah?

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Speaker 8: That parts in your head? It is not or it's

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Speaker 8: a harmonic of something that's happening.

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Speaker 2: It's not in my head, my stroke. Can we run

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Speaker 2: the team all the time? We're doing it all yeah, yeah, Hello,

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Speaker 2: I always hear it, and I'm like looking at you guys,

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Speaker 2: like do you not hear it? Do you not hear it?

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Speaker 2: So we have to do this all over again. Play

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Speaker 2: the theme again. We're doing Yes, this is the first

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Speaker 2: time we're doing all new themes.

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Speaker 7: No, you listen to it without without us singing that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, just listen to it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, nothing there, suprema. I can't believe I'm doing this

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Speaker 2: on my own show. Okay. Course comes in, YadA, YadA, okay, okay,

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Speaker 2: So then this is what a mere speaks. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: then I say something else yeah, and then here comes

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Speaker 2: to set up and then the punch line. Shout out

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Speaker 2: to Mark Kelly and angry. They sound great on this.

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Speaker 4: Right, well, the drums just drumm themselves.

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Speaker 3: The drummer second, yeah, yeah, you can hear somebody.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I he't somebody talking all right? Now, wait here

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Speaker 2: comes the third one. You ready, here we go. Someone's

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Speaker 2: parking the car. Ohr, I hear it. Yeah it feedback

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Speaker 2: feedback somebody.

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Speaker 4: Out that that sounds like a right, now we can

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Speaker 4: lower it.

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Speaker 2: Someone backing up a goddamn delivery whatever are you you

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Speaker 2: you lower the volume? Yeah, I'm just saying that someone

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Speaker 2: was backing that thing up. Okay, looking over for the

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Speaker 2: led the small ship slide. Anyway, ladies and gentlemen, this

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Speaker 2: is a very deep political episode already, yeah, already.

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Speaker 7: Thanks for pointing out the horrible engine delivery trucks.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know. I was like, did I make

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Speaker 2: the theme in the car? I don't know, it just

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Speaker 2: it just happens every time.

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Speaker 7: Hey, look, we have a guest, Ladies and gentlemen.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to another quest Love Supreme.

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Speaker 5: Uh.

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Speaker 2: We got Sugar Steve or the Sugar Network explaining to

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Speaker 2: our guess how powerful his network is.

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Speaker 8: Well, the long story short of what we're talking about

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Speaker 8: is this new feature that Instagram has which yes, allows

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Speaker 8: you to interview somebody on this on your live story

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Speaker 8: where you're on the top and they're on the bottom.

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Speaker 2: But we we have a guest. We have we have

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Speaker 2: double Bill. We're double Bill today unpaid and Boss Bill

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Speaker 2: uh and our guest today, ladies and gentlemen. Uh, he

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Speaker 2: is a journalist. Uh, some say that he's the co

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Speaker 2: leader of the liberal media along with with Rachel Maddow

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Speaker 2: Bronx Native Hunter College and which is actually a high school, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: which is weird, stupid. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: No, it's a wonderful school. I used to live right

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Speaker 3: near it. It's great host of one.

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Speaker 2: Of my favorite MSNBC shows, and of course after this

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Speaker 2: election cycle, my station channel always stays on MSNBC. UH

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Speaker 2: all over Chris Hayes and probably author of the best

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Speaker 2: liberal spleen uh book of Our Imbalanced System. I have

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Speaker 2: to say, well written. I feel like it's almost uh

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Speaker 2: to date myself uh a cliff notes. Cliff notes to

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Speaker 2: people who are like sort of on the fence of

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Speaker 2: you know, like those people that ask like, well, they

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Speaker 2: must have did something, and this is the best liberals

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Speaker 2: plain book. I actually when I got it, and I

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Speaker 2: got it like three days ago, I didn't think I

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Speaker 2: was going to get through it in time for the

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Speaker 2: for the the our interview today.

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Speaker 4: But it's that you read I got that was sort

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Speaker 4: of by design that people would My favorite thing that

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Speaker 4: people say to my two favorite bits of feedback from

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Speaker 4: the book. One is that people were like, oh, I

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Speaker 4: sat down, I read it once sitting or I got

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Speaker 4: through really quick. And two is for the for people

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Speaker 4: that are you know, I don't think the audience for

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Speaker 4: the book. I don't think it's people that are hardcore,

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Speaker 4: like you know, Blue lives matter and Black lives matter,

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Speaker 4: you know. And I'm not gonna way I'm gonna boycott

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Speaker 4: the NFL because Colin Kaepernick is kneeling. Yeah, yeah, Like

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Speaker 4: it's gonna be hard to reach those folks. But there's

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Speaker 4: a huge swath of people, particularly white folks, that I

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Speaker 4: think are generally sympathetic but also like that kind of

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Speaker 4: they must have done they they did something right. There

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Speaker 4: was a reason.

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Speaker 2: Was it?

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Speaker 4: Did he really? And the book is an attempt to

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Speaker 4: try to walk people through kind of some of the

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Speaker 4: reality of what it's.

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Speaker 2: It's it's it's well, it's well executed. Anyway. I haven't

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Speaker 2: said his name, I haven't said the office name. Let's

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Speaker 2: see how long it's going. Can I get to ten minutes?

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Speaker 2: Steve finishing?

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Speaker 7: So one night I was on Instagram and I was like,

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Speaker 7: I'm gonna play.

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Speaker 2: Wait, ladies and Tom and please welcome colony in the nation.

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Speaker 2: Uh and our friend Chris Aes to.

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Speaker 4: Course love the free Thank you, thank you very much.

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Speaker 2: Right before we get all into that, Yes, Steve, we

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Speaker 2: really don't have Well, we had a guest, that's your relationship.

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Speaker 4: It's taking me ten minutes to explain who he is.

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Speaker 8: So the feature just just came out recently a few

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Speaker 8: months ago, and I was just messing around with it

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Speaker 8: one night and I was super high and I was like,

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Speaker 8: I'm going to be Chris Hayes and I'm going to

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Speaker 8: interview motherfucker.

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Speaker 7: So I started, you can invite people?

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Speaker 4: Does it just?

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Speaker 2: How?

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Speaker 4: Does how does that invite request show up on someone's account?

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Speaker 2: Like you two have to mutually follow each other, right.

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Speaker 4: Following should make that happen, by the way, Yeah, I should.

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Speaker 8: Find you can either invite them where they can invite you,

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Speaker 8: and it's obvious something pops up and you, you know,

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Speaker 8: you both have to be cool with it. You can't

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Speaker 8: just somebody's screen. Well, you can do that too, there's

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Speaker 8: no way. Maybe you have to be verified special shut

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Speaker 8: the ship down.

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Speaker 7: Yes, verified people can just cock your.

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Speaker 4: Phone check mark you have.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's a list of people that I'm following

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Speaker 2: that are following me that I can talk to Illuminati

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Speaker 2: and then if I want to interview Erica. I can

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Speaker 2: also search for her name. I have an option that

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Speaker 2: lets me search for a name presser and if she accepts, and.

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Speaker 4: She accepts, and then you go and then you go

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Speaker 4: live and anyone.

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Speaker 2: And people watch. It's a voyeurs. People watch each other

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Speaker 2: interview each other. So Steve is taking us actually to

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Speaker 2: the next level.

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Speaker 7: I got to a few hundred people knowing, you know,

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Speaker 7: and then network And.

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Speaker 4: You find it unnerving to watch in real time how

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Speaker 4: many people are watching.

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Speaker 7: Meaning what how few people are watching.

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Speaker 4: I find something bizarre like we'll do a Facebook live

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Speaker 4: before the show, and my whole life, in a weird way,

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Speaker 4: gets you know. We get the ratings every day at

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Speaker 4: four fifteen and at MSNBC we get a spreadsheet and

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Speaker 4: it matters a lot, like what kind of numbers you're doing?

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Speaker 4: It it resonates aroound the building, you know, So in

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Speaker 4: a weird way, a lot of my professional life is

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Speaker 4: oriented towards this number. And I find something unnerving about

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Speaker 4: the instant feedback as you're talking of, like seeing the

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Speaker 4: numbers go up and down, like it's some kind of

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Speaker 4: like say, absolute extremist version of let me perform in

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Speaker 4: the way what will maximally, maximally get people to what

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Speaker 4: am I doing?

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Speaker 2: What am I doing? Part? It's most people will probably

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Speaker 2: sit for a good eight nine seconds, right, And I

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Speaker 2: noticed that. I mean one time I had a very

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Speaker 2: magical movement happened on my feed where it's like at

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Speaker 2: an actual DiAngelo rehearsal. Well, yeah, I did one of

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Speaker 2: those two with common No, I'm just saying that. It

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Speaker 2: was like even even at a DiAngelo rehearsal for the

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Speaker 2: Roots Picnic, like, you know, my numbers went to ungotly

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Speaker 2: like four figures and then about fifteen minutes later it

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Speaker 2: went down to like three hundred, which you know, maybe

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Speaker 2: it is kind of ridiculous to but the thing is

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Speaker 2: that your people.

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Speaker 3: I was at that rehearsal, it got kind of boring

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Speaker 3: as it went on. Yeah wait, it was uh huh.

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Speaker 7: That doesn't happen.

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Speaker 3: It just drifts like it was like it was all

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Speaker 3: hitting and then everybody sort of just went for a

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Speaker 3: walk and it kind of went away and then.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean I think just the the the

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Speaker 2: the art of or the the task of watching someone

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Speaker 2: have a conversation.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Plus I mean one of the things that I

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Speaker 4: learned one of the kind of crash course. Realities of

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Speaker 4: this job is keeping people's attention is hard. That's it's

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Speaker 4: work to keep people's attention, you know.

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Speaker 2: So Okay, as as a fan of of uh what

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Speaker 2: was the show and HBO? Okay, I'm gonna take the

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Speaker 2: long scenic route Star Dumb and Dumber, not Jim Carrey,

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Speaker 2: the other one Jeff Bridges's show an HBO about Okay,

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Speaker 2: all right, So when you're on the air, is there

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Speaker 2: a do you have a an ear piece in which

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Speaker 2: there is a producer like okay, now ask about this

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Speaker 2: and then.

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Speaker 4: So we Yeah, so you're you're always passionate to the

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Speaker 4: control room through what's called an I F B. Right,

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Speaker 4: So you got an earpiece, and there's a really wide

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Speaker 4: spectrum of how active the control room is in that

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Speaker 4: in questions. In my case almost never. I would say

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Speaker 4: a few times a week the control room will say,

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Speaker 4: will suggest a question, but it's it's very rare, partly

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Speaker 4: because I get I get super annoying. It just feels

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Speaker 4: like backseyt driving. It's like I like, I'm at the wheel,

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Speaker 4: so don't tell me to make a left here. I

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Speaker 4: know I know what I'm doing that other people have

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Speaker 4: different feelings about that. That's my feeling about it.

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Speaker 2: Does that depend on the relationship you have with your producer?

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Speaker 4: I think it does. It depends on you know, the

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Speaker 4: different shows have a different balance between how host driven

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Speaker 4: and how producer driven they are. Different hosts have different

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Speaker 4: levels of comfort of asking questions in the moment, Like

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Speaker 4: some want questions pre written and prompter to go through

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Speaker 4: that they've already done through like a process. Some don't

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Speaker 4: want anything imprompter. They just want to kind of think

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Speaker 4: in the moment, which is usually the way I am, Like,

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Speaker 4: I kind of know what I want to ask, but

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Speaker 4: I want to be One of the things I think

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Speaker 4: that happens is if you script it too much, kind

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Speaker 4: of like this though you don't listen right, Because one

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Speaker 4: of the things that can happen is if you've got

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Speaker 4: your idea about question one, is this in question two,

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Speaker 4: and you ask question one, what you're doing in your

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Speaker 4: head is okay, uh huh yeah, now I'm on question

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Speaker 4: two as opposed to wait, what are they saying?

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Speaker 2: Gay?

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Speaker 4: But but I think it varies a lot the person.

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Speaker 4: The person I talked to the most, which is the

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Speaker 4: line producer on the show who's the person who keeps time,

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Speaker 4: which is a key part of the whole. You know,

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Speaker 4: she's the drummer, right, She's the drummer for the show.

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Speaker 4: So we got to figure out, you know, we got

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Speaker 4: to bring things in at certain moments, and we got

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Speaker 4: to hit our marks to make a show. Because it's live,

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Speaker 4: it's a zero sum. You go long here, you got

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Speaker 4: to go short here, you go, you got to cut

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Speaker 4: something here, and she's the one with cues a minute,

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Speaker 4: got to get to break. Okay, we're over.

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Speaker 2: So I'm not certain if All In is the type

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Speaker 2: of show that deals with real time this just then,

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Speaker 2: but certainly or surely with the time that we're living in,

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Speaker 2: especially with yeah, you know who behind it? Will that

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Speaker 2: can happen anyway? Even this morning, Like you know, Alie

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Speaker 2: Jackson had an entirely different show plan.

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Speaker 4: And then she got four thousand pages probably of transcripts.

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Speaker 2: And then she got of this just in.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and then it's.

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Speaker 2: How how much on your game? Well, I know you

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Speaker 2: have to be on your game, but how annoying is

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Speaker 2: it that at any moment the world can fall apart

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Speaker 2: and you have to be fluid and explain and knowledgeable and.

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Speaker 4: It can be it's both. I would say it's invigorating

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Speaker 4: and thrilling in its own way because there's a certain

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Speaker 4: adrenaline to it when something happens at seven fifteen and

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Speaker 4: it's like, Okay, we're making decisions. What's okay, this is

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Speaker 4: the new A block, then what gets kicked out? Then

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Speaker 4: A goes down to B, then B gets killed? Or

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Speaker 4: do we keep the guests there and they move to

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Speaker 4: see or do we move like and you're making all

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Speaker 4: these decisions very quickly. One of the blessings and I

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Speaker 4: imagine it's actually this way on the Tonight Show that

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Speaker 4: there's a bizarre blessing of having a live show at

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Speaker 4: eight o'clock in that we don't have an option not

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Speaker 4: to do it right, Like if news breaks is seven fifteen,

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Speaker 4: whatever happens in those forty five minutes, the show comes

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Speaker 4: on air at eight, and there's there's something weirdly relieving

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Speaker 4: of stress about that, because if it was like, no,

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Speaker 4: it has to be perfect, we can let's wait till

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Speaker 4: eight twenty five to make sure that it's perfect. Is

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Speaker 4: that Mandy Patinkin, Hey, Manny Patinkin all just so wow,

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Speaker 4: that's the most wild thing that happened to me in

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Speaker 4: my life.

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Speaker 2: Wait a minute, Wait a minute, we just got up

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Speaker 2: the anti randomly walks in a room star of Homeland.

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Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, come on here, you want to be a

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Speaker 4: part of it.

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Speaker 2: Oh well we're we're yes, no podcast?

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Speaker 4: Hey this and I'm good. How are you this?

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Speaker 2: Man? It's good to see you again.

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Speaker 4: Awesome, very enough to meet you.

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Speaker 2: I have a podcast and Chris Is from M S

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Speaker 2: n b C is the host of it.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, I don't know who I am, right, yeah, all right,

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Speaker 9: thank you.

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Speaker 4: Oh it's a copy of my book. Yeah, absolutely, that

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Speaker 4: would be my great pleasure. All right, right, thank you man,

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Speaker 4: You're a legend. You're a legend. Literally, that was the

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Speaker 4: fucking best thing that ever just happened.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for being on chatting with Sugar. Can I

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Speaker 3: tell me the particular story when you wait?

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Speaker 4: Can we interrupt your course?

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Speaker 2: Yes? Wait, hit me.

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Speaker 3: I was working on a musical and man Pittinking was

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Speaker 3: going to be in it, and he uh came and

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Speaker 3: sang and delivered and told all these stories about his

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Speaker 3: mother and he's a very fascinating human being.

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Speaker 2: I could talk about him for a long time.

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Speaker 3: But that was an awesome cameo in quest Love Supreme

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Speaker 3: only on Pandora Sugar Network.

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Speaker 2: Fucking many Pink was amazing.

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Speaker 7: So we gotta get him to sign some ship.

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Speaker 2: No, we can't, we can't. We know he has to

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Speaker 2: remain I mean, he didn't get the Agelo to sign yeah,

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Speaker 2: just ship though he did, did he? Yeah, he said

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Speaker 2: it's more and then he walked wait what was the

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Speaker 2: question to I can't remember. It was a print something

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Speaker 2: probably it was more R and B.

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Speaker 10: And then he went to get cigarettes and never came

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Speaker 10: back like that all right.

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Speaker 4: So man, he's so what's the right word, like he

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Speaker 4: is so entirely himself. Oh yeah, I mean that I

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Speaker 4: you would expect that, but that that was what I

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Speaker 4: expect Mandy Patinka to be like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a wow, that's that was great. You're

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Speaker 2: the host of the show now, so.

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Speaker 10: You kind of just got and something crazy happens in

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Speaker 10: the middle of a show and then and I lose control.

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Speaker 4: Yes, you were just talking about how you how you

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Speaker 4: reacted in the moment improvisation, and you got all flustered.

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Speaker 4: You were like, he's he's the host of my show.

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Speaker 4: What was that's questioned?

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Speaker 2: What was your very first uh journalist assignment, like what

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Speaker 2: is what is the road that leads to you having

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Speaker 2: your own show? And isn't there an internship that leads

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Speaker 2: like did you work at a newsroom?

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Speaker 4: And I came up a sort of a weird way

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Speaker 4: and and in a way that doesn't really exist anymore,

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Speaker 4: partly because the ecosystem I came through has all died

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Speaker 4: off a little bit. I graduated from college and I

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Speaker 4: was really into theater and mooch Chicago with my then

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Speaker 4: girlfriend now wife. And what in Chicago's super cheap. I

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Speaker 4: don't know if any of you have ever lived in Chicago,

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Speaker 4: but it is a great place if you're twenty two

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Speaker 4: and broke, because it's so much cheaper than New York.

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Speaker 4: It's so much cheaper than La The Winner sucks. But

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Speaker 4: there's a lot of people in Chicago doing a lot

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Speaker 4: of really cool stuff because people pay nothing for rent.

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Speaker 4: And there's like people playing shows in the abandoned buildings

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Speaker 4: and doing theater and photography. And I was there doing

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Speaker 4: theater and also freelance writing and started writing.

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Speaker 7: Yes, sorry, what'd you major in there?

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Speaker 4: Just I majored in philosophy, Yeah, I major in philosophy.

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Speaker 4: I was doing theater and I was. I started writing

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Speaker 4: for the Chicago Reader, which is like the alternative weekly there.

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Speaker 4: It's like the Village Voice, Washington, DC City paper like that.

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Speaker 4: And I started freelancing and got had more and more

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Speaker 4: success doing that, started writing for more publications like online

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Speaker 4: liberal publications. I got a job at a lefty magazine

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Speaker 4: called In These Times. I then got hired by the Nation,

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Speaker 4: and then my wife got a job in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 4: Clerking on the Supreme Court. In two thousand and seven

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Speaker 4: we moved to watch Washington, d C. She was clerking

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Speaker 4: for Justice Stevens, which was an amazing thing to see

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Speaker 4: up close. And I became the through complete accident, the

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Speaker 4: long time Washington bureau chief of The Nation magazine David

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Speaker 4: Korn left to go to Mother Jones three months after

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Speaker 4: I moved to DC, and they're like, oh, we needed

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Speaker 4: to be a new bureau chief, and they interviewed me

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Speaker 4: and they gave me the job. And from that I

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Speaker 4: started appearing on television as a talking head punch of

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Speaker 4: the Yeah, I'm the Washington Bureau chief of the Nation,

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Speaker 4: So what do you think about? And this was in

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Speaker 4: the sort of last year the Bush administration in the

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Speaker 4: two thousand and eight campaign and the financial crisis and

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Speaker 4: all that, But.

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Speaker 2: How often does that happen? Usually don't you have to

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Speaker 2: like work your way up the ranks out of paper?

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Speaker 4: And so yeah, it was. It was a bunch of

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Speaker 4: accidents and timing was perfect, timing, timing, And I think

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Speaker 4: the fact that I had a little I had a

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Speaker 4: background in theater, I had acted, I had a little

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Speaker 4: bit of a performance background.

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Speaker 2: I like to talk.

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Speaker 4: I think that was you know, you have we try

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Speaker 4: people out on TV all the time, and talking on

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Speaker 4: TV is a very specific and weird skill that is

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Speaker 4: different than talking, It's different than being an interesting person.

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Speaker 4: It's just a weird skill. You sit in a room,

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Speaker 4: you stare into a camera. You don't have any of

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Speaker 4: the physical cues that come, like right now, we're all

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Speaker 4: looking at each other like you're not in your head

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Speaker 4: when I say something, which is a nice encouragement, I

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Speaker 4: keep going. But you don't have that in it in

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Speaker 4: a TV studio. It's it's a weird and alienating experience.

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Speaker 2: Oh you're saying, even that's more different than this that

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Speaker 2: what we're doing right now? Oh yeah, yeah, I feel

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Speaker 2: like this exposes everything about me. Whereas I'm better tweeting

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Speaker 2: and typing thoughts than this than I am because I

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Speaker 2: have to think about things and edit. Where I'm even

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Speaker 2: two years into this, I'm not. I feel like I'm

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Speaker 2: not fluid at all, and.

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Speaker 4: Well that I would disagree with that, but I would

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Speaker 4: say that it's really interesting ask Bill people have. People

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Speaker 4: have different experiences of how they you know, how they talk,

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Speaker 4: and how and how easily that kind of that form

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Speaker 4: of communication comes to them. And I think I had

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Speaker 4: a sort of aptitude for it. And so what was

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Speaker 4: I started getting booked more and more as a guest. Eventually,

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Speaker 4: in twenty ten, I was asked to guest host a

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Speaker 4: show for Rachel. That was a huge deal. I went

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Speaker 4: down to New York a day early. I read off

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Speaker 4: the teleprompter as practice. I was nervous af the I

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Speaker 4: was so nervous, and then I did it and it

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Speaker 4: went well and it rated well, and then I started

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Speaker 4: guest hosting more and more often. And the more I

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Speaker 4: guest hosted, then I moved from that to a weekend show,

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Speaker 4: and from the weekend show to an evening show. So

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Speaker 4: it was it was a very strange route because I

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Speaker 4: came through kind of liberal lefty magazine, alternative weekly journalism

438
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,160
Speaker 4: on the print side. I was a writer, always a writer.

439
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 4: I didn't have any TV background. I didn't intern at

440
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 4: a local station. I wasn't a news anchor at a

441
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 4: you know station Des Moines or you know. People moved

442
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,919
Speaker 4: from smaller markets to bigger markets. I came in this

443
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 4: completely different direction and kind of had to learn TV

444
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 4: as I went.

445
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:58,159
Speaker 3: Wow, Oh, Chris like you, yeah, to learn TV as

446
00:23:58,200 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 3: he went, so did I.

447
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 8: Chris, So, what what percentage of your current job is journalism?

448
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:06,640
Speaker 7: What percentage is performance?

449
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 4: Let's say it's a great, great question.

450
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 7: I only ask great questions.

451
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 4: Your Instagram channel is amazing, The Eight Hour Extended Mandy

452
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 4: Patinkin interview, The Ring Cycle, the you know, look, I

453
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 4: try to I basically am consuming things all day and

454
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,400
Speaker 4: I'm trying to report every day, which means that I'm

455
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 4: constantly in contact with a bunch of different people in

456
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:40,119
Speaker 4: different areas. But you know, the staff is, you know,

457
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 4: we're got twenty five people to make an hour of TV,

458
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 4: and so much of it is taken up with just

459
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 4: getting that thing on the air. If we had a

460
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,120
Speaker 4: I would love it if we had a newsroom where

461
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 4: we were sending people out. You know, dozens of reporters

462
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 4: to do enterprise journalism every day. In terms of what

463
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 4: I'm doing, I think it's a combination. I mean, you

464
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 4: kind of can't say to create the performance part from it,

465
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 4: because if the performance part isn't there, then people are

466
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 4: not gonna watch. But the interviews, you know, my favorite.

467
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:12,719
Speaker 4: We had someone on last night. We had a political

468
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 4: reporter wrote a great piece about basically the Trump administration

469
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 4: burying a report that came from their own administration about

470
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,199
Speaker 4: the toxicity levels of certain chemicals and water. And they

471
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 4: were like, let's not release this, it'll freak everyone out.

472
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 4: And my favorite moments that happened on TV are when

473
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 4: I'm learning something live in the moment from the interview,

474
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 4: because that feels like I'm making discovery. So we talked

475
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 4: to this reporter. She was great. I learned from her.

476
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,400
Speaker 4: I learned things I hadn't learned even in reading her piece.

477
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 4: And I try to get as many of those moments

478
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 4: as I can in the show, where as opposed to

479
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 4: some pre rehearse thing where I throw a lob and

480
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,360
Speaker 4: you dunk it that I'm actually like, we're actually reacting

481
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 4: to each other. And I'm learning things in real time.

482
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 2: So all right, similar to the comedy world where save

483
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 2: news of the world. All right, all right, so say,

484
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 2: as of this cycle or this us speaking right now,

485
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,159
Speaker 2: Kanye opinions are like a thing right now in the

486
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 2: comedy world where Kanye is so crazy or even just

487
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,160
Speaker 2: let's go you know years ago where it was always

488
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:25,479
Speaker 2: OJ jokes, that sort of thing. With the way that

489
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 2: your particular channel runs, if everyone is telling the same story,

490
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,400
Speaker 2: is that just with the thought in mind that there's

491
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 2: no one watching this show concurrently, like nine hours in

492
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 2: a row, and that you just have to refresh and

493
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 2: me tell the story again. And I'll take Stephanie Ruhl's

494
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 2: take on it and Halle and so but what is there?

495
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't want to say a competition thing. No,

496
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 2: are you guys dreaming of like Okay, I'm gonna this

497
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 2: is gonna be my Bob Wood.

498
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 4: Word totally moment or you know, my Harbernstein.

499
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 2: I would say this, it's going to play me in

500
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 2: the movie when I bless this story open.

501
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 4: Well, you know it's a balance between the two. So

502
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 4: there's two competing impulses. I think one is you don't

503
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 4: want to run the same show over and over, and

504
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 4: repetition is a real problem, and it's a real challenge.

505
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 4: And there's I think partly we can't think of it

506
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 4: as Okay, someone's watching the network for four hours, because

507
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 4: it's a little like ten ten wins here in New

508
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 4: York City, right, like traffic and weather together every twelve minutes,

509
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,479
Speaker 4: because people are just cycling through. And so it's like, well,

510
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 4: I already know the traffic and weather. It's like, well,

511
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 4: you other people are coming to it. We got to

512
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 4: tell them what's up. So there's a little bit of that, right,

513
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 4: So a certain amount of repetition. At the same time,

514
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 4: you do want to distinguish the shows. And the real

515
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 4: hard part is, and you know, I say this about

516
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 4: TV all the time, which is that plants grow towards

517
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 4: the light. And what I mean by that is you

518
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 4: can have a garden in your backyard and you can

519
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 4: plant everything all nice and spaced out, and if you

520
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 4: come back six months later and light is only hitting

521
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 4: one part, all of the plants have grown over here.

522
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 4: And the light is ratings attention, what people are paying

523
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 4: attention to, and so what will inevitably happen is people

524
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 4: chase the stories that they feel like there's the most

525
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 4: juice in, that there's the most attention in, and that

526
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 4: leads to a certain inescapable level of redundancy about what

527
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 4: the stories of the day are not always defensible. I

528
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 4: think sometimes that there's certain myths get embedded in people's

529
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 4: heads about what people are interested in. There's a little

530
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 4: bit of a bubble that can happen, which is that

531
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 4: you work in this building where the TV's on all day,

532
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:29,719
Speaker 4: so you're constantly looking up at cable News and you're like, Oh,

533
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 4: they're talking about x X is the thing we should

534
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,199
Speaker 4: talk about. So I actually try to keep the TVs

535
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 4: off in my office for that reason. Okay, precisely because

536
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 4: I don't want to. I just don't want to be

537
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 4: overly influenced by what everyone in cable news is talking

538
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 4: about all the time, because then you can have a

539
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 4: kind of self fulfilling prophecy about that. But it's a challenge.

540
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 4: We have a bunch of meetings throughout the day in

541
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 4: which the production staffs of the different shows actually huddle

542
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 4: and talk about what their respective rundowns are and try

543
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 4: to make sure that we're not all doing the same show.

544
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 2: So without being too bias towards whatever my cable news preferences.

545
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 2: I think there was. I was in a waiting room

546
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 2: and an airport once, and that's probably the longest I've

547
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 2: been in a place in which Fox News was constantly running. Well,

548
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 2: they did some weird thing where Fox News was on

549
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 2: this television, but then behind me was CNN in the

550
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 2: same room playing at the same time. Yeah, it was well,

551
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 2: it was like one of them large like waiting room things.

552
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 2: And so then it finally hit me why Fox News'

553
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 2: ratings is how it is. One. I didn't know that

554
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 2: they exploited women, uh that much to that level. It's

555
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 2: like practically every journey, even if it's with a mail journalist,

556
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 2: there's always a leggy, thy, stiletto heeled, young blonde uras

557
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, this is why everyone's watching,

558
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 2: Like I finally got it, because in my head, I'm like,

559
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 2: people can't. I know, people want to accept the reality

560
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 2: that accept I mean, I feel as though of the three,

561
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 2: the big three networks, that you guys tell the truth

562
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 2: of what's happening, regardless of what it is, but is

563
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 2: there because there was a point where a lot of

564
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 2: my favorite chills were getting pushed to the side, like

565
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 2: suddenly Roland didn't have his show in the afternoon, and

566
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 2: the Daily Shoe like a whole bunch of ms. And

567
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 2: I was fearing that, oh God, they're trying to they're

568
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 2: feeling the pressure of Fox News, Like will they adjust

569
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 2: or I didn't know if it's new management, But how

570
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 2: do you feel year that one day there will be

571
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 2: the hammer comes down. It's just like, Okay, people aren't

572
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 2: here for the truth anymore, and we gotta you know.

573
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 4: I actually I sort of experienced this in reverse because

574
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 4: when we launched the show in twenty thirteen, interest in

575
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 4: politics was at a real low point. I mean, Barack

576
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 4: Obama's just been re elected, Congress is in the hand

577
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 4: of Republicans, there's this kind of stalemate, you know, and

578
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 4: people just were like, eh, I'm kind of done with politics.

579
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 4: I think the I think Barack Obama's re election particularly

580
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 4: was like, Okay, that's the end of that chapter, right,

581
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 4: like the.

582
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 2: I can go on with the life.

583
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like we had George W. Bush and then like

584
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 4: this crazy insane financial crisis and also this crazy insane campaign,

585
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 4: and also we elected the first black president, and then it

586
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 4: was like, is he going to get re elected and

587
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 4: then he did, and it was like, okay, well we've

588
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 4: got a sort of narrative arc here that was a

589
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 4: dangerous for years of extremely Yeah, but people a lot

590
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 4: of people checked out, and we saw it in the numbers.

591
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 4: I mean, so my experiences, I've been doing the show

592
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 4: for five years, twenty thirteen, we started twenty thirteen, fourteen fifteen.

593
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 4: Those were lean years, and that's when a lot of

594
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 4: those shows were getting canceled. And I think it was

595
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 4: a combination of there was new management that came in,

596
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 4: but also everyone was kind of struggling trying to figure

597
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 4: out what gets people's attention. I mean, you remember the

598
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 4: missing plane thing, right when the plane went missing, and

599
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 4: that was that became this running joke, understandably because it

600
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 4: was insane how much cable news covered it, but people

601
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 4: were covering it out of desperation because it was it

602
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 4: was the only thing rating. It's like, you couldn't you

603
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 4: couldn't get people to do we.

604
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 2: Have a fine at plane? No?

605
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 4: No, No, it's crazy. Okay, Yeah, that's one of those

606
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 4: for where did we end up up on that files? Yeah,

607
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 4: like where we end up on the plane? I know,

608
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 4: I know there was it was missing.

609
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 2: But and they thought they found it. That they right.

610
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 4: So what's happened instead over the course of our trajectory

611
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 4: on the show is that we now have We've got

612
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 4: form four times as many viewers as we had, you know,

613
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 4: back in twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, the lean years, and

614
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 4: my feeling, I feel like if the viewers are there,

615
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 4: we're there. But TV's fickle. I mean, TV's rough. It's

616
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 4: like it's like the restaurant business in New York City.

617
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 2: So you don't even feel secure in your position now

618
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 2: as a anchor.

619
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:19,719
Speaker 4: I feel pretty I feel them. I will say this,

620
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 4: I feel the most secure I've ever felt like I

621
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 4: have a contract. I'm going to be there through you know,

622
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 4: through twenty twenty you know, barring something completely unforeseen, and

623
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 4: and I feel as secure as've ever felt. But I

624
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 4: have also I also understand that it's a crazy business

625
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 4: and you know people things blow up all the time,

626
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 4: and things get canceled to get moved around. It's just

627
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 4: the nature of the business. And you got to kind

628
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 4: of be a little at peace with that otherwise you're

629
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 4: going to stress yourself out all the time.

630
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 2: Normally, well, we kind of worked our way backwards, but

631
00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 2: I always started your beginnings.

632
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 7: Can I just ask one more question before we go backwards?

633
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 8: And speaking of like fickle and TV and stuff, Trump fatigue.

634
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 8: So I'm kind of a news junkie, or I was,

635
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 8: and now I'm kind of like I have Trump.

636
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 4: You've hit You've hit your point.

637
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 7: Yeah I stopped.

638
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 8: That's interesting and well it's sort of correlated with the

639
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 8: beginning of chatting with Sugar. So I don't really do

640
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:28,399
Speaker 8: anything anymore except that. But but no, in all seriousness, though,

641
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 8: do you get that?

642
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 2: Do you have that?

643
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 7: Or are you getting that? Do you fear having that?

644
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 2: Yeah?

645
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 4: I feel it sometimes, I think, you know, there are

646
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 4: times where it feels a little like being trapped in

647
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 4: a dysfunctional or toxic relationship or a toxic household. Like

648
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 4: I've been very lucky in my life that the people

649
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 4: that are closest to me, I haven't had to deal

650
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,479
Speaker 4: with people very close to my life that are really

651
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 4: toxic personalities. People do People have parents that are toxic personality,

652
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 4: They have partners that are you know, siblings, Like people

653
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 4: deal with that, they deal with that all the time.

654
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 4: I'm very lucky my loved ones aren't you know, aren't

655
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 4: like that. I feel like I have this weird experience

656
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 4: of it now because so much of my day is

657
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 4: dominated by the President of the United States and what

658
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 4: he's doing, and and yeah, I think I have some

659
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 4: craving to get outside that a little bit. We just

660
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:26,760
Speaker 4: we actually just launched a podcast that called whise is Happening,

661
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 4: where I get to have kind of longer conversations with

662
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 4: people and outside of the specifics of the daily news

663
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 4: cycle that tends to be so driven by the President.

664
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,399
Speaker 4: And partly I think that's because that's nurturing a need

665
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,760
Speaker 4: I have to talk about, yeah, talk about other stuff.

666
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 4: I mean, just just to talk about you know, I've

667
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 4: been trying recently. I just found myself so trapped in

668
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 4: the news cycle just for my job that I've been

669
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 4: trying to like read more books and I just you know,

670
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 4: read novels.

671
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 3: And but don't you think, like I listened to all

672
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 3: your podcasts on the way in, and as far as

673
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,320
Speaker 3: you try to get away from them, they all circle

674
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 3: back to Trump and what's going on now, Like the

675
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,839
Speaker 3: conservative one, it's all it doesn't matter.

676
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, as far out as you go, you always get

677
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 2: sucked back.

678
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:11,479
Speaker 4: Into that thing like, that's a good point.

679
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 3: It was like the Middle East and it was all

680
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 3: about like but then it was like Kushner, what's going

681
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:14,919
Speaker 3: on in the Middle East?

682
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 2: Like totally one of them.

683
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, And I think as we go further, I

684
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:19,959
Speaker 4: think we want to try to push to go further

685
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 4: a field. Part of it also is I mean the

686
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 4: funny thing about that, right, this comes back to this

687
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 4: question about, you know, the plants growing towards the light.

688
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 4: So I was like obsessively looking at the podcast numbers

689
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 4: last night because I'm a crazy, compulsively addicted junkie.

690
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 2: Sounds like me, Yeah, this is I stopped looking at

691
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 2: my Metacritic numbers like three months ago. But yeah, at

692
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 2: one point, man like, well that's sick.

693
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 4: Say I do it too.

694
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 2: It's terrible.

695
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 4: Yeah. Authors, Man, you talk to authors, they sit there

696
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 4: just hitting refresh on the Amazon ranking and it's like.

697
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 2: Even give me a start with that ship.

698
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's crazy. So I was looking at it last night,

699
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 4: and sure enough, we put out three episodes and one

700
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 4: of them is one is very explicitly about Trump and

701
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 4: how he fits into conservatism, and lo and behold that's

702
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 4: the best performing one, right, which which which is not

703
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 4: that surprising because the even if there are people I

704
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,320
Speaker 4: think like yourself, and I think that's not an uncommon experience,

705
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 4: a sort of fatigue, there's also just this insatiable desire

706
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 4: to try to understand.

707
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 3: But it also felt like the most relatable. Sorry, it

708
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 3: felt like the most relatable. The one about conservatism too

709
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 3: very black and white to me. It was like, this

710
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 3: is the guy the guy you had on was Yeah,

711
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 3: it was very explicit about what it felt very clear

712
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 3: to me.

713
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, is it hard to not insert your personal beliefs

714
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 2: into a situation and being neutral? Because the thing is

715
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 2: that this is the first time in which I'm seeing

716
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 2: being neutral being a dangerous thing.

717
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 7: I mean, I.

718
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 2: Guess I would. You're not neutral? Yeah, I mean no,

719
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 2: I know that, But I'm just saying that. Is it

720
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 2: the days of you know, you not knowing where Walter

721
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 2: khank this this may take a while, Walter. Yeah, with

722
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,720
Speaker 2: Walter Kronkite or Peter Jennings or whatever, right, the days

723
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 2: of just asking a question and you you know, Yeah.

724
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 4: I think that the model that we have that I

725
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 4: have is that I'm not neutral, that I have a

726
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 4: set of beliefs in a worldview that people know and

727
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 4: are familiar with. But we try really hard on the

728
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 4: show to be what I would say would be fair,

729
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 4: and to be open minded, to not take cheap shots,

730
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:50,399
Speaker 4: to not to not just tell ourselves things that feel good,

731
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,439
Speaker 4: to not be hacks. Right, So that, oh, well, this

732
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 4: Republican was accused of sexual harassment and ergo, that person

733
00:38:57,920 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 4: is terrible and we're going to do a hip piece

734
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 4: segment on them. And then the next day this Democrat

735
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 4: was accused of sexual harassment. Like we're just going to

736
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 4: keep that out of the show, Okay. Like the other night,

737
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:11,399
Speaker 4: for instance, half forty minutes before we went to air,

738
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 4: Eric Sneiderman, the New York Attorney General, there was a

739
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 4: piece in New Yorker devastating, horrifying Peace in which he's

740
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:22,240
Speaker 4: alleged to be this just sort of psychotically disgusting abuser,

741
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,919
Speaker 4: I mean with women in his piece. Yeah, Ronan's piece.

742
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 2: Yiks, Ronan does man.

743
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 4: People on the record, women on the record talking about

744
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 4: this horrible physical and verbal abuse from him. And it

745
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 4: broke at seven twenty and I was like, we're doing

746
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 4: this in the show because Eric Snydermann's been on our

747
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 4: show and it's important that this, we don't. You know,

748
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:45,720
Speaker 4: if you were a Republican, we do it. IF's a Democrat,

749
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 4: we do it. So there's a level which like we

750
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 4: have our worldview, but we also are not just out

751
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 4: there trying to play for a team, which is really

752
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 4: important to me, like that we are good faith arbiters

753
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 4: from the perspective of a set of values as opposed

754
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 4: to a perspective of one of two tribes or one

755
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 4: of two colors, or one or two teams.

756
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 3: But like when you were coming up, we're fairly the

757
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 3: same age, like you were saying, I feel like Peter

758
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 3: Jennings and Dan Rather they're all like trying to be

759
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 3: the face of neutrality and try to present both things.

760
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 3: When did you decide to really define yourself as being

761
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,360
Speaker 3: liberal because like your Wikipedia page it's as a liberal commentary.

762
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 3: It's like it feels like that's something you're very proud,

763
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 3: yeah or whatever.

764
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,359
Speaker 4: Well for me for it started, I mean it went

765
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 4: the other way. So people people that come up through

766
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 4: TV have to be neutral, I think as they come up,

767
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 4: because if you're the you're reading the news in Des

768
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 4: Moines or in Broward County or wherever you got it,

769
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 4: that's the way the business model works, and then if

770
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 4: you know, you work your way up past that and

771
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 4: you're doing other stuff. For me, I started as just

772
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 4: a writer writing for explicitly ideological publications where everybody knew.

773
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 4: So the Nation magazine and In These Times and Chicago

774
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 4: Reader are a certain extent like they were places where

775
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 4: that was just part of the social contract with the reader,

776
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 4: like the reader understood they're getting yeah, yeah, And I

777
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 4: think you know, I read a lot of a lot

778
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 4: of different stuff from different ideological corners that I really

779
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 4: like because to me, the big, the most important thing

780
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 4: is just to be honest and upfront and not be deceptive. Right,

781
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 4: So the the sort of sneak attack that kind of

782
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 4: like oh, well, this is just when you're smuggling stuff

783
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 4: in and you're not telling him as opposed you're saying like, hey,

784
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 4: I'm a conservative, and here's why I think you know

785
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 4: X about the tax cuts or X about our cultural

786
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 4: rot of Hollywood or whatever it is that's interesting to me,

787
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 4: and I can I can engage with that. It's the

788
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 4: it's the it's the bad faith deception that I find

789
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 4: a little unnerving.

790
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 2: Well, actually, well, this could lead us into a colony

791
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:45,839
Speaker 2: and a nation which I always felt that the term

792
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 2: liberal was sort of a dog whistle turn that conservative

793
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 2: media has come up with, uh when they describe a

794
00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 2: journalist that considers black people, gay people, brown people, anyone

795
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 2: not under the white male hetero kind of umbrella as equals.

796
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 2: Always felt as though that has been the sort of

797
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 2: dog whistle term of which you you there's there's a

798
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 2: great part of in chapter four where you really explain

799
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 2: that the genesis of the idea of white fear and

800
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 2: that the fear of losing knowing acknowledging that you have

801
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 2: an advantage and that one day it could be lost.

802
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 2: And I almost feel as that's where that falls under it.

803
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 2: So even I mean, I consider when I hear liberal,

804
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:58,839
Speaker 2: I feel that that's the hidden the hidden four letter

805
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 2: word that I mean basically is you're telling the truth

806
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 2: right in my opinion. But of course, like the way

807
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 2: that we're programming built today that it's it's kind of like,

808
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 2: you know, you have to preference with you know, I'm

809
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 2: neutral and I'm that sort of thing. So like, how

810
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 2: do you feel when you hear that title?

811
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 4: I don't, you know, it's funny liberal. I never feel

812
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 4: I don't feel like there's really a great term that

813
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 4: I feel like I want to embrace. Like liberal doesn't

814
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 4: feel quite right, progressa doesn't feel quite right, leftist doesn't

815
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 4: feel None of those feel quite right. I don't know

816
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 4: what the right term.

817
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 2: Is, right. What does the Fox journalists call themselves?

818
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 4: Oh, you know, they say they're unbiased or they're you know,

819
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 4: I think Sean Hannity calls them. I think that's not true.

820
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 4: I think Tucker Carls and Sean Hanny, Laura Ingram, they

821
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,839
Speaker 4: would all call themselves conservatives. I think they would say

822
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 4: that they were conservatives. I I think if I were to,

823
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 4: you know, my biggest commitment, I would And this is

824
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 4: a word that you I think sounds annoying if you

825
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,879
Speaker 4: go around calling yourself this but an egalitarian. I mean,

826
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 4: I'm like, I'm really my worldview is really ordered around

827
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 4: equality and getting to equality and what a society with real,

828
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 4: genuine that took a quality seriously it would look like,

829
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:19,839
Speaker 4: and what that would mean for full human flourishing. I mean,

830
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 4: you know, it's easy, I think sometimes to lose sight.

831
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 4: Everything gets so cramped of like what is the project?

832
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 4: Why are we as humans? Why do we build a

833
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 4: democratic society, Why do we do any of this? What's

834
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 4: the idea behind this all? And the idea is to

835
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 4: facilitate human flourishing. The idea is everybody has an opportunity

836
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 4: and a chance and is given the tools to flourish,

837
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 4: to do things they love, to do, things they enjoy,

838
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 4: to be in relationships that are fulfilling to them, to

839
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 4: go on vacations and play on the beach. I mean,

840
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,359
Speaker 4: that's the vision here, and there's a bunch of questions

841
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 4: about how do you get that vision? But to me,

842
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 4: when we have hierarchies and categorical systems that put some

843
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 4: people on one side of the line and some people

844
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,359
Speaker 4: on the other of it, whether that's through the way

845
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 4: the economy works or in the case of colony nation policing, like,

846
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 4: that's the fundamental thing that I'm taken with that I

847
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,320
Speaker 4: think about, is are those hierarchies and that and getting

848
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 4: to a quality and sort of ways that we can

849
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 4: upend those hierarchies.

850
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 2: When you were a kid, what were your aspirations as

851
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:25,359
Speaker 2: far as what you thought you were going to do

852
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 2: as an adult when you were six or seven years old.

853
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:30,919
Speaker 4: Well, when I was six or seven, I probably wanted

854
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:35,399
Speaker 4: to be a basketball player. To be honest, that did

855
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 4: not work out. I was like barely a high school

856
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 4: varsity basketball player, So I was a long way.

857
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 2: But that philosophy degree from Brown.

858
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 5: Yeah.

859
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, Weirdly, you know, I knocked around the D League

860
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 4: for a bit. But no, I would say that the

861
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 4: two biggest things I thought about was something in some

862
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 4: kind of way of like, I think I always wanted

863
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 4: to perform in some ways. And then I think I

864
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 4: wanted to be I really wanted to be an intellectual,

865
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 4: even at a really young age, Like I wanted to

866
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 4: be a professor, you know, I want to be someone

867
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,320
Speaker 4: who learned for a living and wrote books for a

868
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 4: living and you know, engage with other people about ideas

869
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:20,919
Speaker 4: and that. I think I wanted to do that even

870
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,399
Speaker 4: when I was really really young, I think seven eight nine,

871
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 4: probably I wanted to do that.

872
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 2: That's weird because I feel like I was just forced

873
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 2: into that position, like forced intellectualism. No, I'm just forced

874
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 2: into the whatever, the teacher role that people expect me

875
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 2: to be. Then I was like, well what they what

876
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:39,840
Speaker 2: did you?

877
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 4: What did you want to be?

878
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 2: No, I was I was going to be a musician,

879
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 2: and then.

880
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 4: From from from from real young from.

881
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:47,919
Speaker 2: The age of two. But the thing was is that

882
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,760
Speaker 2: because did you come from my my my my family.

883
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 2: I came from a musical think think the Black Partes family,

884
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:58,879
Speaker 2: So I came from that sort of environment. But now

885
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 2: that I think about it, it's either you're going to

886
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 2: be a musician and pursue and create art, which I

887
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 2: think I did. Yeah, but then I get equal amounts

888
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:19,279
Speaker 2: of pleasure of studying other people's method of making art.

889
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 2: So it's like, would I rather you know, go batch

890
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 2: it crazy over watching other people make art and marvel

891
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 2: over it and figure out the process of value did

892
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:36,760
Speaker 2: it versus me just doing it myself like my version

893
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 2: of it. And I actually think that the former is

894
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 2: what I gravitate towards. So really, uh yeah, yeah.

895
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 4: I always think to myself, if I could be given

896
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 4: any power or ability in the world. I mean, the

897
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:58,759
Speaker 4: honest and lay answer is probably dunk of basketball. But

898
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 4: if you put that, ah, you put that aside, like

899
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,840
Speaker 4: really dunk, I mean like really, I don't mean like

900
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 4: they just get me over, like were like trained for

901
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:15,320
Speaker 4: ten months and I mean like row down down, but

902
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 4: but that but I would say after that, the number

903
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 4: one thing would be to like write a great song

904
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 4: that to me seems like the ultimate superpower, like to

905
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 4: walk through Earth and being able to do that.

906
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 2: See, that's weird. I'd rather discover a great song, like in.

907
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 4: My mind iascinating to me.

908
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:36,720
Speaker 2: Really, I know somewhere and it's like do I dream

909
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:38,919
Speaker 2: of Like, Man, I'm gonna write a great song that's

910
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:41,839
Speaker 2: going to change people's lives, and hey, it's me a

911
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 2: writing song of the year and I'm holding my grammy.

912
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 2: I don't have those dreams. My dreams are, man, I

913
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:48,919
Speaker 2: know in that Prince Fault.

914
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 4: There's let's be in.

915
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's at least forty one songs at least of

916
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:58,320
Speaker 2: those thousands. I know at least there's forty one songs

917
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:01,240
Speaker 2: that could change my life.

918
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 4: Gotta get to them like other people's just changed your life,

919
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 4: my life discovery. You're saying discovery as a bust of creation, and.

920
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:11,759
Speaker 2: You know what it was? Okay, So when I'll give

921
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 2: you example, So maybe a month before the Purple Raine

922
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 2: reissue came out, when quote, my connect gave me, uh

923
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 2: whatever the whatever the final listening was going to be

924
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 2: of the extra songs that were making it. He sent

925
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 2: me a particular song he sent me we can Funk

926
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 2: or we can fuck uh funk, and I can't describe

927
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 2: it to you, but in hearing it and knowing that

928
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 2: song already and heard it and it's different incarnations of

929
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 2: in boot Bootlegology, at one point for a particular minute,

930
00:49:55,760 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 2: I was back to being that thirteen year old that

931
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 2: there's nothing like staring at the speaker discovering new music

932
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 2: and how it made you. It just brought me back

933
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 2: to fifty two to twelve. Oh Sage Avenue and the

934
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 2: bowl a si My cereal bowl and the color television

935
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 2: with the set, you know, with the antenna. So yeah,

936
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 2: it's just like I don't know if maybe, and maybe

937
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 2: that's why I also obsessed over well, I've explained like

938
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 2: watch me obsessing over Soul Train isn't necessarily about me

939
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 2: loving the show Soul Train, but more or less because

940
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 2: every episode does the synesthesia thing with me that I

941
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 2: can I know what happened this particular day, I'll make

942
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 2: it be silly shit, Like the most silliest one was

943
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:55,399
Speaker 2: like Shalamar's first appearance on the show. Oh, I love

944
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 2: that one. Shalamar's first appearance on the show in nineteen

945
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 2: seventy seven triggers off Ah a can of of Pathmark

946
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 2: no frill spaghetti meatballs with the good stuff. Stop dismissing me,

947
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 2: Steve in my dreams, I'm just saying.

948
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 10: No.

949
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,320
Speaker 2: But it's it's it just takes me to a magical

950
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,360
Speaker 2: time in second grade at seven years old. And I

951
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 2: mean it might be silly, but maybe that's how my

952
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:36,760
Speaker 2: memories are preserved. Yeah, So it's almost like I don't

953
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 2: I'm happy with, you know, the Grammys and stuff, but

954
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 2: maybe that's why they're in my bathroom. Like like I

955
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 2: don't dream of my own achievements more than I dream

956
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 2: of preserving my memories.

957
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 3: But I don't think that's I think you're talking about

958
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 3: what would be your best super superpower. He was said

959
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 3: to write a great song. I'm not sure that that's

960
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 3: answering that right.

961
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 2: But that's the thing, like I never well, my whole

962
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 2: point was that I never had those dreams for myself

963
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 2: more or less discovering other people's great songs.

964
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 3: Right, and like putting part of tastemaker and putting people

965
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 3: onto things. I feel like that's your other great thing,

966
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 3: because we have tastemakers on this show all the time,

967
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 3: and that to me is always interesting is watching you

968
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 3: talk to those people because they can define the culture

969
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:22,440
Speaker 3: and define music and define.

970
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 2: Don't even know if I'm gonna put see that's why

971
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:26,839
Speaker 2: that's why Bill is here, Like Bill is my put

972
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 2: people on, right, But you're kind of just he's like

973
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 2: you're condo inspired though, or that he's old point. Well yeah,

974
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:40,800
Speaker 2: but so you're but for you to be a to

975
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 2: be a teacher at such a young age.

976
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 4: Like I just really liked you know, I was a kid.

977
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 4: I grew up in the Bronx in the nineteen eighties.

978
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 4: My my dad was a community organizer and my mom

979
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 4: uh stayed home with us and then she did arts

980
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 4: and education. So I was a real I was like

981
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 4: a middle class outer borough kid. I went to this

982
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 4: gifted program that was a Burrow wide gifted program, uh

983
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 4: in the Bronx in the eighties, which is a fascinating

984
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:09,800
Speaker 4: group of people.

985
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:13,319
Speaker 2: Can you explain the because like a lot of us,

986
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:16,399
Speaker 2: by a lot of us, I mean mean like I'm

987
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 2: still thinking of come out and.

988
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 3: Yeah right or right, so yeah, pretty much it was

989
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 3: basically you look like the Bronx.

990
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:28,239
Speaker 2: And it's different because even now, like when I went

991
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 2: to see Michael McDonald in the Bronx.

992
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:34,400
Speaker 4: Like, I was like, wait a minute, people, you know

993
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 4: the thing about the thing about the first of all,

994
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:39,799
Speaker 4: there's a sound stuff New York City. New York City

995
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 4: is enormous. Each borough is enormous. You're talking about a

996
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 4: million and a half people somewhere thereabouts. Now, the Bronx

997
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:48,319
Speaker 4: in the nineteen eighties was in a bad way. I mean,

998
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 4: my dad's community organizing was basically focused on neighborhoods that

999
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:55,279
Speaker 4: were bordering the neighborhoods that were literally burning from like

1000
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 4: the Bronx is burning right, so arson disinvestment, huge spike

1001
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 4: in both in crime, in drug addiction, all those things.

1002
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 4: He was doing communit organizing in these neighborhoods that were

1003
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 4: sort of adjacent to those, trying to kind of hold

1004
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:13,799
Speaker 4: the line against this scourge of disinvestment and flight that

1005
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:17,839
Speaker 4: had taken place in the borough. You know, the world

1006
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 4: that I lived in was a really interesting world in

1007
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 4: grade school that I'm forever grateful to because it was

1008
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:27,799
Speaker 4: very multi racial. I mean, the borough is probably, you know,

1009
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 4: twenty five percent white.

1010
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:32,439
Speaker 2: Maybe I never knew.

1011
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,959
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's probably like it's seventy or eighty percent black

1012
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 4: and brown. And so the program that the school I

1013
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 4: went to, which was a borough wide program, you know,

1014
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 4: you just got really used to being one of only

1015
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 4: a few white people in spaces all the time in

1016
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 4: school and classes, in dances and all in competitions and

1017
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 4: all that stuff. And I think it was a really

1018
00:54:56,520 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 4: good formative experience. And you know, for all of the

1019
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 4: bronx Is Burning Warriors all that, you know, it's a

1020
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 4: huge burrow with a huge working middle class. And these

1021
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:11,399
Speaker 4: were people whose parents, you know, owned a bodega, drove

1022
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:16,279
Speaker 4: city buses, worked as bank tellers, you know, you know,

1023
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 4: had working class, middle class jobs and and you know

1024
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 4: it was not a place with a lot of privilege,

1025
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:29,280
Speaker 4: but it was it was a fascinating and then culturally

1026
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 4: explosive universe. I mean we were exposed. I was exposed

1027
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 4: to well, you were you born? I'm sorry, I was

1028
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 4: born nineteen seventy nine.

1029
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 2: So after the hip hop explosion of.

1030
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:44,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it wasn't like the you know, DJ cool

1031
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:50,080
Speaker 4: Hirk like apartment party sort of formative years. But I

1032
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 4: do remember my friend Kamal telling me that his cousin

1033
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:55,240
Speaker 4: was in a special ad music video and then showing

1034
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 4: me the dance.

1035
00:55:58,560 --> 00:55:58,879
Speaker 2: Very good.

1036
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 4: I have a very live memory of that, but so

1037
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 4: so yeah, and I think that it just was a

1038
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:09,240
Speaker 4: very What was interesting about my upbringing, and my upbringing

1039
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 4: in the Bronx particularly was because of my parents and

1040
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 4: their education level. And then we moved to this neighborhood

1041
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:16,319
Speaker 4: that was more affluent than the one that I grew

1042
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:18,560
Speaker 4: up in. And then I went to a Magnet High

1043
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 4: school in New York City. That's where a bunch of

1044
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 4: people in including Li Mel and Miranda a Moral Technique,

1045
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:29,840
Speaker 4: a whole bunch of different books, Bobby Lopez, who's you know,

1046
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:32,839
Speaker 4: got an egot and wrote Avenue Q and Frozen and

1047
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:36,640
Speaker 4: with his wife and all these really interesting talented people.

1048
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:39,960
Speaker 4: But because of that, I had a very interesting upbringing

1049
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 4: in which I was exposed to, like the full spectrum

1050
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:47,279
Speaker 4: of American class status. So everything from kids in my

1051
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:50,280
Speaker 4: class who were in and out of homelessness, food stamps

1052
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:55,239
Speaker 4: or in housing projects, through people who had fifteen room

1053
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 4: apartments on Park Avenue, from ages, you know, from the

1054
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:01,360
Speaker 4: time I was born to the time I wanted a

1055
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:06,160
Speaker 4: way to college. I had social interactions and saw patches

1056
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 4: of life in each of those different worlds, and that

1057
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:13,800
Speaker 4: was really a huge part of I think my formative experience.

1058
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 2: I don't I don't condone bullying, but still the thought

1059
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:21,840
Speaker 2: of immortal Technique being the school bully to you and women,

1060
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 2: well one of the most hilarious.

1061
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 4: As funny at the time.

1062
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 2: But yes, in retrospect, I think, but that I think

1063
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 2: when I first met you and didn't know that you

1064
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 2: knew Lynn, when you were interviewing this about Hamilton, you

1065
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 2: two told me like, yeah, he used to throw us

1066
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:42,320
Speaker 2: in the trash can, which I was like, one of

1067
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:48,520
Speaker 2: his best stories. I'm sorry, okay for hip hop, for

1068
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 2: hip hop versus like what what verse would you have

1069
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 2: to study in high school?

1070
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 4: The thing they were always making people sing Bucktown. That

1071
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 4: was the that was the thing. It was always singing Bucktown.

1072
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 4: It was like people put people in trash cans of

1073
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 4: making them sing.

1074
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I don't know why that's one hip hop crime.

1075
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:12,480
Speaker 2: I'll give him a past too. I'm sorry because I

1076
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:16,920
Speaker 2: want to do that to kids now say Bucktown? Dammit?

1077
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:24,760
Speaker 2: Oh god, So leading leading to a colony in a nation,

1078
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 2: why did you feel it was necessary?

1079
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:30,960
Speaker 7: Two?

1080
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:35,440
Speaker 2: Do you see this as sort of a supplement to uh,

1081
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:39,680
Speaker 2: Tanahse coaches uh uh me against the Between the World

1082
00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:42,479
Speaker 2: and Me. I'm thinking of Tupac me against the world,

1083
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 2: the same thing. He knows what he meant.

1084
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think it's I hope it's uh

1085
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 4: I hope it's for a lot of people. I hope

1086
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 4: it's a kind of gateway to a whole, a whole

1087
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:58,240
Speaker 4: massive literature from you know, Racecraft by the by Barbara

1088
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:00,120
Speaker 4: and Karen Fields, and Between the World and Me on

1089
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:03,919
Speaker 4: the Hazie to the Nudrum Crow by Michelle Crowe by

1090
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 4: Michelle Alexander. There's a great book by James former Junior

1091
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:11,920
Speaker 4: that actually won the Pultzer this year. It came out

1092
00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:13,800
Speaker 4: right around the same time as a Colony Nation called

1093
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 4: Locking Up Our Own, which is about the politics crime

1094
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 4: punishment in predominantly black neighborhoods and cities, which is a

1095
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:24,320
Speaker 4: really fascinating book, great book. The reason I wrote the

1096
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 4: book was I've always been really interested in criminal justice.

1097
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 4: I think the experience of growing up in New York

1098
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:31,200
Speaker 4: City in the eighties and nineties during the peak of

1099
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:32,960
Speaker 4: the kind of crime boom, I mean nineteen ninety three

1100
00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:36,000
Speaker 4: or nineteen nine. Yeah, when I was thirteen I started

1101
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 4: commuting down to Manhattan. You know, New York City's got

1102
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 4: twenty four hundred murders a year. It's got about three

1103
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:45,240
Speaker 4: hundred and fifty last year. So and that's true. All

1104
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 4: index crimes basically were the same, right, All index crimes

1105
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:50,400
Speaker 4: basically reduced by eighty percent from the peak in ninety

1106
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 4: two ninety three when we were when I was a

1107
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:54,920
Speaker 4: thirteen year old walking around getting my starter caps jacked

1108
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 4: like every other day.

1109
00:59:57,200 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 2: Whoa you've been.

1110
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 4: Oh, yes, yeah, we went to starter car.

1111
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:11,320
Speaker 2: That's my brain went Okay.

1112
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 4: So I wanted to write about it, and I wanted

1113
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 4: to write about I was covering, I was covering Ferguson,

1114
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:20,680
Speaker 4: I was covering Baltimore, Freddie Gray, I was covering uh,

1115
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:22,800
Speaker 4: some of the stuff that went down in Chicago even

1116
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:27,240
Speaker 4: before Lauwan McDonald uh and and our garner here in

1117
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 4: New York. And wanted to kind of write about it,

1118
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:32,600
Speaker 4: and was kind of worried about I think I had

1119
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 4: a moment of is this a book? Is this a

1120
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:37,480
Speaker 4: topic that a white man should write a book about?

1121
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:41,680
Speaker 4: And I think I came to believe that actually, part

1122
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 4: of the problem with the way I think, particularly white

1123
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 4: people think about the system, even if they're sympathetic to

1124
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 4: the aims of say, Black Lives Matter, is that it's

1125
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:54,760
Speaker 4: essentially like some other ancillary problem, Like that's a thing

1126
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:57,920
Speaker 4: that is a problem, Like it's a bad thing, and

1127
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 4: I'm it's a bummer that happens, but I'm not implicated

1128
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 4: in it, and it's like part of the point of the

1129
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:08,920
Speaker 4: book is like, no, you very much are we collectively

1130
01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 4: as a democratic society, but particularly as white majorities and

1131
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 4: particularly as white voters, have created this system that puts

1132
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 4: more people in prison than anywhere else in the world

1133
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 4: in a per capita basis. It didn't just come about.

1134
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 4: It wasn't handed down by you know, Moses, and it

1135
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:24,560
Speaker 4: wasn't the product of back room lobbyists. It was actually

1136
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 4: voters going to the polls and voting for people that

1137
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 4: ran really racist ads about getting tough on crimes and

1138
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 4: crack you know, crack thugs and things like that. And

1139
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:37,560
Speaker 4: so part of the project of the book is to say, look,

1140
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:42,040
Speaker 4: you're implicated in the system we all are as democratic citizens,

1141
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:45,160
Speaker 4: and the system that we've built fails to live up

1142
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 4: to the democratic aspirations and promises we have, and so

1143
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:52,120
Speaker 4: we should all be troubled by that, and we should

1144
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:54,760
Speaker 4: all be trying to unbuild that system. And that's that's

1145
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 4: sort of the idea behind why I wanted to write

1146
01:01:57,040 --> 01:01:57,400
Speaker 4: the book.

1147
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:06,200
Speaker 2: Well as far as the target audience to whom it

1148
01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 2: should hit, how do you how do you propose not

1149
01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 2: even reading not even reading your book per se? But

1150
01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 2: it's like, how do you even plant the seed in

1151
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 2: people's minds, especially where we the times that we live

1152
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 2: in now, where journalists aren't trusted that much. The idea

1153
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:37,560
Speaker 2: of fake news and liberal media is just oh, you're

1154
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:39,640
Speaker 2: just a liberal and you know, which is like instant

1155
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:43,320
Speaker 2: turn off. So it's like, how do you It's like, okay,

1156
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:45,000
Speaker 2: let me just save the people that are on the

1157
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 2: fence now.

1158
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 4: And I think, you know, it's a good question.

1159
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:48,080
Speaker 2: You know.

1160
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:50,560
Speaker 4: The hope always, I think when you're writing is that

1161
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:52,840
Speaker 4: you can speak to people, whoever they are, if they're

1162
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 4: willing to give you a charitable read the book. It's

1163
01:02:57,000 --> 01:03:00,160
Speaker 4: funny I'm watching now this sort of national conversation and

1164
01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 4: that started to click in a dear do you see

1165
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:02,800
Speaker 4: the thing about t I? Today?

1166
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:03,520
Speaker 7: No?

1167
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 4: You see this. I was on the way we are

1168
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:07,520
Speaker 4: t I got arrested because someone called the cops on

1169
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:09,000
Speaker 4: him as he was trying to get into his own

1170
01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:11,080
Speaker 4: gated community in Atlanta.

1171
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:16,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that that's it's real, because sometimes you don't

1172
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:17,600
Speaker 2: have your code. Yes.

1173
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:17,760
Speaker 7: No.

1174
01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:19,280
Speaker 4: And someone was like, who's this dude?

1175
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:19,760
Speaker 2: Right?

1176
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:23,320
Speaker 4: And I think as we're having this natural conversation about

1177
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:25,440
Speaker 4: you know, there's a Starbucks incident, there's there's been a

1178
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:27,120
Speaker 4: bunch of this and I think it's been really really

1179
01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:30,400
Speaker 4: he got arrested. There was an ap bulleton as I

1180
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:32,240
Speaker 4: was coming up here saying that t I got arrested

1181
01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:34,960
Speaker 4: for breaking into basically bagging.

1182
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:38,200
Speaker 2: It was on that damn. Even the cops come like,

1183
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:38,960
Speaker 2: oh you're t I.

1184
01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:41,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, well look I don't know.

1185
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:42,040
Speaker 2: That's horrible.

1186
01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:43,160
Speaker 4: Clearly they didn't.

1187
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:44,840
Speaker 2: Thought of it.

1188
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:48,400
Speaker 4: So, you know, the book A Calling Nation like it

1189
01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:50,280
Speaker 4: starts and ends on a question of when to call

1190
01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:52,480
Speaker 4: the cops. Like the first the first sentence of the

1191
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:54,040
Speaker 4: book is when's the last time you called the cops?

1192
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:56,520
Speaker 4: And the last sentence of the book is recounting a

1193
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 4: story of me being in Prospect Park and taking on

1194
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:00,560
Speaker 4: my phone and considering whether I should die one one one.

1195
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:04,080
Speaker 4: And the reason that I started and ended with that

1196
01:04:04,240 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 4: is because that is a thing that you know, Ferguson

1197
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:10,600
Speaker 4: or the police shooting people might team abstract to a

1198
01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:14,800
Speaker 4: citizen like, well, I'm not a cop, but people call

1199
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:16,880
Speaker 4: the cops a lot. You're You're part of the link

1200
01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:20,040
Speaker 4: in the chain, and I think it's really important we're

1201
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:23,560
Speaker 4: having this discussion right now. We I think primarily white people,

1202
01:04:23,720 --> 01:04:26,560
Speaker 4: and I think people that you know don't want to

1203
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 4: end up screwing people over about like when should you

1204
01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:31,560
Speaker 4: call the cops?

1205
01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:31,880
Speaker 7: Right?

1206
01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:34,080
Speaker 4: Should you call the cops because someone has been in

1207
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:37,520
Speaker 4: a Starbucks or two minutes or that people are going

1208
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:40,200
Speaker 4: too slowly on the golf course? Like I don't think so.

1209
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:42,240
Speaker 4: I think you should not call the cops. I think

1210
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:44,360
Speaker 4: you should not call the cops unless someone's life is

1211
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:47,800
Speaker 4: in danger. Basically, well, you know, if there is violence

1212
01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:50,560
Speaker 4: imminent or that you witnessed, if there is a danger

1213
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:53,880
Speaker 4: that you're witnessing, she should call nine one one.

1214
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:56,440
Speaker 2: Short of that, I think a lot of the times

1215
01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:59,320
Speaker 2: cops are used because people are generally just afraid of

1216
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:00,440
Speaker 2: conference conflict.

1217
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:03,200
Speaker 4: They don't want to say oh they of course, of course,

1218
01:05:03,240 --> 01:05:05,760
Speaker 4: it's so much easier. I mean, and that's what you

1219
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:07,960
Speaker 4: do my fighting for me, Like yeah, and the first

1220
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:09,680
Speaker 4: example I gave in the book is called the Last

1221
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:12,520
Speaker 4: time I did call the cops was one watching a

1222
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 4: guy basically intimidate sort of threaten his girlfriend on the

1223
01:05:16,040 --> 01:05:20,200
Speaker 4: street and screaming at her. And yeah, I didn't want

1224
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:22,520
Speaker 4: to go out there and be like, hey, you, what

1225
01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:23,000
Speaker 4: are you doing?

1226
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:24,520
Speaker 2: Get your hands off of her?

1227
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:28,120
Speaker 4: Like George, I was like, no, I'm going to make

1228
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:28,600
Speaker 4: a phone call.

1229
01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:41,480
Speaker 2: There's also there's there's a part of the book in

1230
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:46,600
Speaker 2: which he explained that which I'm actually shocked at the

1231
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:50,680
Speaker 2: fact that you were explaining about you coming home from

1232
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:56,280
Speaker 2: a school dance and uh, you got accost it by

1233
01:05:56,840 --> 01:06:05,640
Speaker 2: some undesirables go fugs, And somehow I was like wow,

1234
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:09,120
Speaker 2: Like that would have instantly changed my mind, because even

1235
01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:13,800
Speaker 2: my even my head to this day, when I visit

1236
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:17,680
Speaker 2: my childhood home, I'm still looking for Big Reggie and

1237
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:22,240
Speaker 2: his cousin Lamar. Yep, Like I'm certain, and I hate

1238
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:24,880
Speaker 2: to say this, I'm certain they're dead by now, which

1239
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:26,000
Speaker 2: I shouldn't.

1240
01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:28,000
Speaker 4: Say this, but no, it's still there.

1241
01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:31,120
Speaker 2: Even in getting out of my car, like as a

1242
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:34,560
Speaker 2: near fifty year old, my first thing I thought about

1243
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:37,680
Speaker 2: was Big Reggie Lamar might be down a black tag

1244
01:06:37,720 --> 01:06:41,160
Speaker 2: Reggie hey Man taking someone's pack man money is some

1245
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:46,560
Speaker 2: big shit back in the early agies. So yeah, you know,

1246
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:52,200
Speaker 2: like that one incident at the arcade in my childhood

1247
01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:56,760
Speaker 2: has almost scarred me for life where I'm always looking,

1248
01:06:56,880 --> 01:07:00,880
Speaker 2: you know, shell shocked and the fact that that happened

1249
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:03,120
Speaker 2: to you, and I thought like, wow, at no point

1250
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:05,720
Speaker 2: were you just like dad, why the hell are we

1251
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:08,840
Speaker 2: up here? And I should be living this life of

1252
01:07:09,160 --> 01:07:11,240
Speaker 2: you know, and I don't know if the P word

1253
01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:13,479
Speaker 2: is a four letter word to white people to say

1254
01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:16,480
Speaker 2: like privileged or anything, but like we don't have to

1255
01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:20,080
Speaker 2: live here that like what why did you not ever?

1256
01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:22,560
Speaker 2: Actually what made you.

1257
01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:24,160
Speaker 7: It?

1258
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:26,440
Speaker 2: You know, come to this point of understanding if most

1259
01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:27,720
Speaker 2: people don't do that, I.

1260
01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:30,200
Speaker 4: Think that, yeah, there's a lot of you know, we

1261
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 4: were scared all the time and we we got And

1262
01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:35,040
Speaker 4: part of that was I think that was true of

1263
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:38,440
Speaker 4: every teenager in New York City at that at that age,

1264
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:41,720
Speaker 4: like you just that happened, you got jacked, like run

1265
01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:46,520
Speaker 4: your loot, run your bus pass, you know, jacket, backpack, starter,

1266
01:07:46,520 --> 01:07:49,800
Speaker 4: a cap whatever, you know. I think part of it

1267
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:54,560
Speaker 4: was at the same time that was happening the ethos

1268
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:57,480
Speaker 4: at my high school and at my middle school and

1269
01:07:57,520 --> 01:07:59,720
Speaker 4: even in grade school. Although more when you're an adolescent,

1270
01:07:59,720 --> 01:08:03,520
Speaker 4: you're thinkinking about like what's cool. Everything that was cool

1271
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:09,120
Speaker 4: was urban. Everything that was cool was emanated from communities

1272
01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 4: of color, like like the center, the center of gravity

1273
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:15,280
Speaker 4: of everything culturally, of the worldview of what we wanted

1274
01:08:15,320 --> 01:08:17,360
Speaker 4: to be, of the music we listened to. Everything was

1275
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:21,880
Speaker 4: it was non white, right, So it there And I

1276
01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:24,560
Speaker 4: think there's ways that you that can get real pathological

1277
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:28,120
Speaker 4: and kind of fetishistic, you know, in the in certain ways.

1278
01:08:28,439 --> 01:08:32,000
Speaker 4: But our experience of it, I think was just that, Yeah,

1279
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:33,880
Speaker 4: that was just part of being in the city. But

1280
01:08:33,920 --> 01:08:36,120
Speaker 4: the city was great and we were urban kids and

1281
01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:38,320
Speaker 4: that's what mattered, and that was the kind of cultural

1282
01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:39,200
Speaker 4: world we inhabited.

1283
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:41,519
Speaker 2: So do you that was just a part of growing

1284
01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:42,280
Speaker 2: up in New York?

1285
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:45,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it stressed me out a lot. It definitely,

1286
01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:47,880
Speaker 4: like I spent a lot of time scared. I really did.

1287
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:50,160
Speaker 4: I walked around the city all the time. You know,

1288
01:08:50,320 --> 01:08:52,439
Speaker 4: My brother tells this hilarious story because when I was

1289
01:08:52,439 --> 01:08:54,200
Speaker 4: telling him about the book, he was talking about how,

1290
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:57,240
Speaker 4: you know, we would all work, everyone wore jan sports

1291
01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:00,000
Speaker 4: and the style was that you wore them like hitting

1292
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:02,640
Speaker 4: against your butt, like the with the you know, they

1293
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:04,479
Speaker 4: were all the way low on you, like the the

1294
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:09,040
Speaker 4: the loop was as big as possible, but that if

1295
01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:11,400
Speaker 4: you were about if something was about to go down,

1296
01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:15,760
Speaker 4: you would like preparatorily grab the straps and pull them

1297
01:09:15,840 --> 01:09:18,200
Speaker 4: up to tighten because you were going to have to

1298
01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:20,080
Speaker 4: book it and you didn't want to.

1299
01:09:24,400 --> 01:09:28,640
Speaker 2: Indiana, I'm having flashbacks right now, Like Bill, you're like

1300
01:09:28,720 --> 01:09:31,240
Speaker 2: seven ft tall. Didn't matter, just.

1301
01:09:31,120 --> 01:09:33,880
Speaker 4: The moment, the moment right before was going to go

1302
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:37,160
Speaker 4: down was always like strap them up, like pull the

1303
01:09:37,320 --> 01:09:39,400
Speaker 4: pull the straps on the on the jan sports you could.

1304
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:42,800
Speaker 8: Book, so you couldn't book.

1305
01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:47,200
Speaker 4: So you you you?

1306
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:49,960
Speaker 2: Thanks? Steve?

1307
01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:53,200
Speaker 7: What justo?

1308
01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:58,000
Speaker 2: Yes, I get it.

1309
01:09:58,000 --> 01:09:59,760
Speaker 4: It's like when I say when I call my CA

1310
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:05,200
Speaker 4: wife boo and the millennials in my office, what.

1311
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:07,280
Speaker 7: Book is much older than?

1312
01:10:07,479 --> 01:10:09,360
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1313
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:15,320
Speaker 2: You you explained how you know? Because you're saying that

1314
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:18,680
Speaker 2: at one point crime was at an all time high

1315
01:10:18,720 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 2: and then suddenly it stopped. And now, as a New

1316
01:10:25,080 --> 01:10:30,600
Speaker 2: New Yorker, I always wondered about that because when I

1317
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:32,920
Speaker 2: first arrived in New York City.

1318
01:10:34,280 --> 01:10:35,160
Speaker 4: When did you move here?

1319
01:10:35,960 --> 01:10:39,920
Speaker 2: Well, okay, i'd moved here in two thousand and nine,

1320
01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:44,040
Speaker 2: which I mean gentrification. They're already taken over. But I'm

1321
01:10:44,080 --> 01:10:48,160
Speaker 2: talking about when we as a group first started to

1322
01:10:48,240 --> 01:10:50,160
Speaker 2: record up here. I mean, we would stay here, but

1323
01:10:51,200 --> 01:10:53,559
Speaker 2: I mean I guess technically maybe I have lived here

1324
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:56,799
Speaker 2: for twenty five years and just haven't admitted it. Yeah.

1325
01:10:57,120 --> 01:11:02,639
Speaker 2: But but the thing was is that when we first moved,

1326
01:11:02,840 --> 01:11:07,240
Speaker 2: ironically on forty sixth Street where Hamilton is right now,

1327
01:11:10,160 --> 01:11:14,920
Speaker 2: everyone kept complaining about like the Disney the disneyfied occasion

1328
01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:18,000
Speaker 2: of Times Square, which I didn't know any better, Like

1329
01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:21,680
Speaker 2: I didn't get that they were longing for what was

1330
01:11:22,479 --> 01:11:24,320
Speaker 2: I didn't and I didn't even know that was there.

1331
01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:26,200
Speaker 2: And I was like, wait, this is great, Like it's

1332
01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:29,679
Speaker 2: it's like a mall, and there's y Roger's Chicken across

1333
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:31,479
Speaker 2: the street, and there's the McDonald's over there, and there's

1334
01:11:31,479 --> 01:11:33,599
Speaker 2: a movie theater, Like this is really awesome. And people

1335
01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:39,599
Speaker 2: were like everyone complained about that happening. And then even

1336
01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:49,040
Speaker 2: more recently and looking for homeless people, I discovered that

1337
01:11:49,760 --> 01:11:55,320
Speaker 2: they've all been moved out of Manhattan, So why were

1338
01:11:55,360 --> 01:11:58,800
Speaker 2: you looking for homeless people? I did. We did a

1339
01:11:58,840 --> 01:12:01,639
Speaker 2: photo shoot in which they ordered way too much food

1340
01:12:02,040 --> 01:12:05,280
Speaker 2: and the interns were about to throw like twenty boxes

1341
01:12:05,280 --> 01:12:08,280
Speaker 2: of pizza away perfectly good. And I was like, nah,

1342
01:12:08,320 --> 01:12:10,200
Speaker 2: let's let's get him to the homeless. But then it

1343
01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:13,840
Speaker 2: was like a two hour search for Yeah, like I

1344
01:12:13,880 --> 01:12:18,160
Speaker 2: found people in Brooklyn at a near a shelter, but

1345
01:12:19,640 --> 01:12:21,479
Speaker 2: at forty second Street. When I was going through the

1346
01:12:21,479 --> 01:12:24,080
Speaker 2: bus station, the cop was like, what's loft? I was like,

1347
01:12:24,120 --> 01:12:27,920
Speaker 2: I didn't do it, but and I hit him. I

1348
01:12:27,960 --> 01:12:31,280
Speaker 2: was like, yo, I said, I thought I'd come here

1349
01:12:31,320 --> 01:12:34,760
Speaker 2: with you know, the bus station, but where the where

1350
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:37,120
Speaker 2: the people at? And they kind of laughed at each

1351
01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:40,120
Speaker 2: other like a joke, like in't that cute? It said noah, man,

1352
01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:42,439
Speaker 2: you ain't gonna find nothing down here. And I was

1353
01:12:42,479 --> 01:12:45,880
Speaker 2: like what happened to them? And he kind of leveled

1354
01:12:45,880 --> 01:12:48,080
Speaker 2: with me. He's a black dude, so you just level

1355
01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:50,280
Speaker 2: with me, like, yeah, dog, they don't want homeless the

1356
01:12:50,320 --> 01:12:54,000
Speaker 2: more like they up and like past the Bronx like

1357
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:57,800
Speaker 2: in Yonkers. And I was just like, oh, so it

1358
01:12:57,880 --> 01:13:00,760
Speaker 2: wasn't because when people say those that's like, you know,

1359
01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:03,000
Speaker 2: crime is going down in homelessness, and da da da

1360
01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:07,000
Speaker 2: da da. You're made to think like suddenly, like you know,

1361
01:13:07,120 --> 01:13:10,479
Speaker 2: there are more jobs and people and less crime because

1362
01:13:10,479 --> 01:13:14,040
Speaker 2: people were more moral. But no, like either people have

1363
01:13:14,040 --> 01:13:19,800
Speaker 2: been killed or thrown in jail or just displaced and

1364
01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:23,400
Speaker 2: put Yeah, he explained about the one way ticket system

1365
01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:26,200
Speaker 2: that I never knew about. There was a period in

1366
01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:30,439
Speaker 2: I think two thousand and one where if they put

1367
01:13:30,479 --> 01:13:33,240
Speaker 2: you on a plane or a bus and someone's on

1368
01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:36,160
Speaker 2: the other side to get you, that's how they got

1369
01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:39,679
Speaker 2: rid of you, which isn't necessarily fixing the situation either.

1370
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:42,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's two things about I think the way the

1371
01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:45,240
Speaker 4: city changed. One is that it really did get less dangerous.

1372
01:13:45,720 --> 01:13:47,479
Speaker 4: But then there's this ambient thing I talk about in

1373
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:49,479
Speaker 4: the book of just like seediness, and that was such

1374
01:13:49,479 --> 01:13:51,800
Speaker 4: a part of what the experience of New York was,

1375
01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:55,280
Speaker 4: which was a little related to the threat of danger,

1376
01:13:55,360 --> 01:13:57,920
Speaker 4: but also just this kind of ambient thing of there

1377
01:13:57,920 --> 01:14:00,200
Speaker 4: were squeegee men. It would come and there were a

1378
01:14:00,240 --> 01:14:02,280
Speaker 4: lot of panhandlers, and there were people all the time

1379
01:14:02,360 --> 01:14:04,920
Speaker 4: who were kind of like quasi living in subway stations,

1380
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:06,680
Speaker 4: and it had this feeling. You see a lot of

1381
01:14:06,680 --> 01:14:08,760
Speaker 4: discourse about this around San Francisco right now, and they're

1382
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:10,920
Speaker 4: constantly writing about that, like, oh, there's all these drug addicts.

1383
01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:12,880
Speaker 4: It was all these homeless and New York City was

1384
01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:15,439
Speaker 4: very much had that feeling to it, and it was

1385
01:14:15,479 --> 01:14:19,080
Speaker 4: a real it was a real thing, and this sense

1386
01:14:19,120 --> 01:14:21,880
Speaker 4: of like cleaning it up, which is very loaded politically

1387
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:25,400
Speaker 4: in terms of what it means and for whom, particularly

1388
01:14:25,400 --> 01:14:27,920
Speaker 4: in Manhattan, right, I mean particularly it's like, well, we've

1389
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:30,120
Speaker 4: we're going to clean up Midtown, We're going to clean

1390
01:14:30,160 --> 01:14:32,599
Speaker 4: up Downtown, clean up the financial district, clean up Brian Park.

1391
01:14:32,640 --> 01:14:35,960
Speaker 4: That was all this very much kind of business oriented thing,

1392
01:14:36,160 --> 01:14:39,559
Speaker 4: much more than you know, communities coming together because they

1393
01:14:39,600 --> 01:14:42,639
Speaker 4: wanted it for their neighborhood. But one of the complicated

1394
01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:46,280
Speaker 4: things about this, right is that folks who live in

1395
01:14:46,320 --> 01:14:49,000
Speaker 4: neighborhoods don't love a bunch of people hanging out outside

1396
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:52,120
Speaker 4: of liquor store either. A lot of times, like it's

1397
01:14:52,160 --> 01:14:56,200
Speaker 4: not always just this external thing of you know, the

1398
01:14:56,240 --> 01:14:59,599
Speaker 4: business district or this power structure from outside. There's always

1399
01:14:59,640 --> 01:15:01,679
Speaker 4: this is one of the things that James Warmer Junior

1400
01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:03,240
Speaker 4: talks about in his book Locking Up Our Own is

1401
01:15:03,280 --> 01:15:06,559
Speaker 4: like the internal dynamics of neighborhoods about who's you know.

1402
01:15:06,720 --> 01:15:10,599
Speaker 2: I'm sorry side note, I kind of missed the neighborhood whino.

1403
01:15:11,760 --> 01:15:14,280
Speaker 2: I haven't seen a good whino in about twenty years.

1404
01:15:14,320 --> 01:15:16,639
Speaker 2: Like you've been searching the wrong place, apparently, ah Man,

1405
01:15:16,920 --> 01:15:19,360
Speaker 2: I just missed the neighborhood whino. I'm sorry, Go ahead, Chris.

1406
01:15:19,760 --> 01:15:22,400
Speaker 4: So. So, there was a real transformation that happened in

1407
01:15:22,400 --> 01:15:25,839
Speaker 4: the city and the experience of it, and that experience

1408
01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:28,080
Speaker 4: was that was a very intentional thing that was done

1409
01:15:28,080 --> 01:15:31,120
Speaker 4: by Giuliani and then Bloomberg Broken Windows. I write about

1410
01:15:31,120 --> 01:15:33,479
Speaker 4: in the book, like this whole thing about how there's

1411
01:15:33,520 --> 01:15:36,400
Speaker 4: a whole theory that there's a relationship between those two

1412
01:15:36,400 --> 01:15:39,360
Speaker 4: things that if people are jumping turnstyles, it sends a

1413
01:15:39,360 --> 01:15:42,840
Speaker 4: message to everyone else that lawlessness is okay, and then

1414
01:15:42,880 --> 01:15:45,080
Speaker 4: you get lots of murder and that that was the argument,

1415
01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:48,360
Speaker 4: and a lot of people it wasn't a bad faith argument.

1416
01:15:48,360 --> 01:15:51,400
Speaker 4: I think people really believe that argument. But what ended

1417
01:15:51,479 --> 01:15:55,920
Speaker 4: up happening is the city starts enforcing these low level

1418
01:15:56,200 --> 01:16:00,000
Speaker 4: misdemeanor things, selling em and ms on the subway, jumping turnstyles, YadA, YadA, YadA.

1419
01:16:00,120 --> 01:16:01,639
Speaker 2: You can't tell eminem's on the subway.

1420
01:16:01,680 --> 01:16:04,120
Speaker 4: No more people, people, those little kids, people get citations,

1421
01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:05,960
Speaker 4: for selling emms on the subway every day and you're

1422
01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:08,280
Speaker 4: setting their feet up on us or putting their feet

1423
01:16:08,360 --> 01:16:09,599
Speaker 4: up or doing the showtime thing.

1424
01:16:09,640 --> 01:16:14,920
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no more performances. Move up, move. Steve prevents

1425
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:17,040
Speaker 2: me from getting on the subway, so I would have. Actually,

1426
01:16:18,680 --> 01:16:21,120
Speaker 2: I suggested that he and I take the subway down there,

1427
01:16:21,120 --> 01:16:23,080
Speaker 2: and Steve has this thing in his mind where he

1428
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:24,200
Speaker 2: has to be my protector.

1429
01:16:24,439 --> 01:16:28,280
Speaker 7: It's not the most pleasant place to be. You know, wait,

1430
01:16:28,360 --> 01:16:30,559
Speaker 7: celebrity right if that's I've.

1431
01:16:30,439 --> 01:16:33,639
Speaker 2: Been the subway with him and like nobody I rode

1432
01:16:33,640 --> 01:16:35,640
Speaker 2: a celebrity with a tuxedo on with the rest of

1433
01:16:35,640 --> 01:16:36,759
Speaker 2: the roots and no one bothered.

1434
01:16:37,080 --> 01:16:39,640
Speaker 4: Really, it was like Obama was Do you see that

1435
01:16:39,680 --> 01:16:42,400
Speaker 4: instagram is instagram of the when the Cavs are in town.

1436
01:16:42,400 --> 01:16:44,880
Speaker 4: Do you see that? Was pretty funny They got where

1437
01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:46,320
Speaker 4: they were on the subway. They were on the subway

1438
01:16:46,360 --> 01:16:48,679
Speaker 4: like it was like the whole Calves squad and taking

1439
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:51,000
Speaker 4: the subway to Madison's Square Garden when they were in

1440
01:16:51,000 --> 01:16:53,759
Speaker 4: town to play the next and I forget what happened,

1441
01:16:53,760 --> 01:16:56,000
Speaker 4: but Lebron is definitely on there. He's got a hoodie on,

1442
01:16:56,360 --> 01:16:59,160
Speaker 4: and I think no one recognized I'm pretty sure no

1443
01:16:59,160 --> 01:17:01,920
Speaker 4: one recognized them, but it was. It's a really funny,

1444
01:17:01,960 --> 01:17:04,080
Speaker 4: like there's there's a woman next to Lebron I think,

1445
01:17:04,080 --> 01:17:05,840
Speaker 4: who's kind of like making a face because they're like

1446
01:17:05,880 --> 01:17:08,160
Speaker 4: acting the fool a little bit right, and and and

1447
01:17:08,200 --> 01:17:09,880
Speaker 4: she doesn't like them acting up. That has no idea

1448
01:17:09,920 --> 01:17:11,439
Speaker 4: that she's next to like literally one of the most

1449
01:17:11,439 --> 01:17:12,360
Speaker 4: famous people on earth.

1450
01:17:12,439 --> 01:17:15,800
Speaker 2: Right, see, let's think it.

1451
01:17:16,240 --> 01:17:20,120
Speaker 7: That's a squad of eight foot black guys. And instead

1452
01:17:20,120 --> 01:17:23,360
Speaker 7: of me and you on the suburb, it's a different thing.

1453
01:17:23,320 --> 01:17:29,280
Speaker 2: Big steven little yeah, little mirror protection. So where do

1454
01:17:29,360 --> 01:17:33,040
Speaker 2: you see? Do you see an end of the this nightmare?

1455
01:17:36,479 --> 01:17:38,439
Speaker 4: But the thing is the nightmare ends.

1456
01:17:38,479 --> 01:17:42,920
Speaker 2: But if the nightmare ends, then we won't watch the news.

1457
01:17:43,320 --> 01:17:47,080
Speaker 2: I'm not saying you yourself like, thanks, well, didn't let's

1458
01:17:47,080 --> 01:17:51,360
Speaker 2: move us to like the country for us? Yeah? Yeah,

1459
01:17:51,439 --> 01:17:51,840
Speaker 2: I don't.

1460
01:17:52,200 --> 01:17:54,240
Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't know the answer. I don't

1461
01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:55,960
Speaker 4: know how it ends. I really don't. I think everyone

1462
01:17:56,080 --> 01:17:56,719
Speaker 4: so you don't.

1463
01:17:56,520 --> 01:17:58,880
Speaker 2: Have a vision of your head of like, okay, so

1464
01:17:59,680 --> 01:18:01,920
Speaker 2: you know you gotta check your phone every twelve seconds

1465
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:02,400
Speaker 2: to see.

1466
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:06,760
Speaker 4: If Michael Cone got indicted. No he didn't. I'm saying

1467
01:18:06,840 --> 01:18:11,599
Speaker 4: check my phone, dude. I'm like, really, actually many Pettien's

1468
01:18:11,600 --> 01:18:14,240
Speaker 4: come back and tell us he'll sing it.

1469
01:18:15,640 --> 01:18:21,280
Speaker 2: But do you have but do you sorry, I'm all,

1470
01:18:23,160 --> 01:18:26,240
Speaker 2: do you have this vision of like all of them

1471
01:18:26,320 --> 01:18:27,759
Speaker 2: getting arrested in slow motion?

1472
01:18:27,960 --> 01:18:30,840
Speaker 4: And yeah, I mean, look, I think everybody has their

1473
01:18:30,880 --> 01:18:34,000
Speaker 4: own kind of fantasies about how it all ends. And

1474
01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:36,320
Speaker 4: you know, I think there's some I feel like it's

1475
01:18:36,320 --> 01:18:39,879
Speaker 4: going to happen. But I here's my can I my

1476
01:18:39,640 --> 01:18:41,479
Speaker 4: my my thing about this, which is a little school

1477
01:18:41,520 --> 01:18:43,519
Speaker 4: marmish but I'll I'll do it anyway, which is that

1478
01:18:44,640 --> 01:18:47,320
Speaker 4: I think people want some deliverance. They want a White Knight,

1479
01:18:47,320 --> 01:18:49,479
Speaker 4: they want a Dais X Machino. They want some way

1480
01:18:49,479 --> 01:18:51,519
Speaker 4: to be rescued. They want the bad guys to get

1481
01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:54,040
Speaker 4: carted away. They want Bob Muller to sort of ride

1482
01:18:54,080 --> 01:18:56,400
Speaker 4: in and slay the dragon. And my thing about this,

1483
01:18:56,439 --> 01:18:59,639
Speaker 4: which is the same theme of the book, is it's

1484
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:02,519
Speaker 4: just in a democracy, like it's just us, it's us

1485
01:19:02,520 --> 01:19:05,400
Speaker 4: as citizens, it's we. No one's going to do it

1486
01:19:05,439 --> 01:19:09,880
Speaker 4: for you the work, like that's just the way it works.

1487
01:19:09,880 --> 01:19:12,759
Speaker 4: It's the hard thing about democracies is they they're fricking

1488
01:19:13,000 --> 01:19:16,560
Speaker 4: They take a lot of exertion to make them work. Well,

1489
01:19:16,720 --> 01:19:19,599
Speaker 4: you can outsource all that shit, you can say. I'm

1490
01:19:19,640 --> 01:19:21,559
Speaker 4: you know, I trust these people in charge are just

1491
01:19:21,560 --> 01:19:22,600
Speaker 4: going to do it. I'm going to show up to

1492
01:19:22,680 --> 01:19:25,120
Speaker 4: vote or maybe even not vote, but at the minimum,

1493
01:19:25,120 --> 01:19:26,679
Speaker 4: just show up and vote and be like okay.

1494
01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:30,719
Speaker 2: But so even in the hands of a storm.

1495
01:19:30,720 --> 01:19:34,200
Speaker 4: He's a lawyer, Mike Michae Lavanati. He's a great character.

1496
01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:37,280
Speaker 2: Your eyes at him, but do you not feel as

1497
01:19:37,320 --> 01:19:38,120
Speaker 2: though he has traction?

1498
01:19:38,360 --> 01:19:40,400
Speaker 4: He's got traction, man, Dude, do your thing. Dude, I

1499
01:19:40,400 --> 01:19:42,840
Speaker 4: don't like I don't begrudge anyone anything. Everyone's doing all

1500
01:19:42,880 --> 01:19:46,519
Speaker 4: this stuff. I'm just saying the ending will. I think

1501
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:49,240
Speaker 4: the ending will be written by us collectively as a society,

1502
01:19:49,479 --> 01:19:53,840
Speaker 4: as opposed to some squad of elliot ness untouchables that

1503
01:19:53,880 --> 01:19:56,720
Speaker 4: bring down the ring. And even though even though I

1504
01:19:56,720 --> 01:20:00,200
Speaker 4: think that there's a possibility that Bob Muller does, I

1505
01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:01,840
Speaker 4: can dit a lot of people. Don't get me wrong,

1506
01:20:02,160 --> 01:20:04,320
Speaker 4: I think they probably. I think people in the president's

1507
01:20:04,320 --> 01:20:07,599
Speaker 4: circle definitely committed crimes that's already been established, but even

1508
01:20:07,600 --> 01:20:11,000
Speaker 4: worse than we know. I just think that in a

1509
01:20:11,920 --> 01:20:14,360
Speaker 4: deeper sense of will it be okay? The answer to

1510
01:20:14,400 --> 01:20:17,479
Speaker 4: that question lies of us as opposed to.

1511
01:20:18,680 --> 01:20:22,599
Speaker 2: Do you believe that Mahler is all right? To compare

1512
01:20:22,640 --> 01:20:27,960
Speaker 2: this to like a police drama instead of arresting the

1513
01:20:28,040 --> 01:20:33,320
Speaker 2: corner boy, okay, instead of arresting the corner boy and

1514
01:20:34,520 --> 01:20:39,840
Speaker 2: his drug dealer boss, that Mahler is actually trying to

1515
01:20:39,920 --> 01:20:43,640
Speaker 2: cast a widen est amongst anyone involved, Like this is

1516
01:20:43,680 --> 01:20:46,320
Speaker 2: a bigger story, even bigger than Trump being president.

1517
01:20:46,400 --> 01:20:49,280
Speaker 4: I think he has gone All indications from the outside

1518
01:20:49,320 --> 01:20:50,760
Speaker 4: is that he has gone about this in both a

1519
01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:52,800
Speaker 4: methodical way and in the kind of way that you

1520
01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:57,000
Speaker 4: would attempt to go after or roll up in organize

1521
01:20:57,000 --> 01:21:00,720
Speaker 4: crime ring. And I think that's been pretty clear. I

1522
01:21:00,720 --> 01:21:03,040
Speaker 4: mean the stories, the craziest stories to me are the

1523
01:21:03,040 --> 01:21:07,960
Speaker 4: international stories where you know, some oligarch shows up on

1524
01:21:08,000 --> 01:21:09,840
Speaker 4: a private jet and Kennedy and gets off the plane

1525
01:21:09,880 --> 01:21:12,880
Speaker 4: and it's like, excuse me, sir, with the FBI, come

1526
01:21:12,920 --> 01:21:15,360
Speaker 4: with us and like search his phones, question on that

1527
01:21:15,400 --> 01:21:17,920
Speaker 4: whole thing. And that's happened multiple times to multiple people.

1528
01:21:18,640 --> 01:21:21,080
Speaker 4: They've got agents working overseas, so you know there's a

1529
01:21:21,120 --> 01:21:23,439
Speaker 4: lot going on in that. I don't I don't know

1530
01:21:23,479 --> 01:21:25,680
Speaker 4: what ultimately that will bear out, but I do have

1531
01:21:25,720 --> 01:21:28,280
Speaker 4: a fair amount of faith in the in the diligence

1532
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:30,640
Speaker 4: with which they're approaching that job. I just don't know.

1533
01:21:31,479 --> 01:21:33,519
Speaker 2: Okay, So in your version, this is my last question

1534
01:21:33,560 --> 01:21:36,320
Speaker 2: in your version of all the presidents have been who's

1535
01:21:36,360 --> 01:21:41,480
Speaker 2: playing you in the movie? And I'm slowly.

1536
01:21:42,880 --> 01:21:47,920
Speaker 4: Good, good, Who's who's playing you?

1537
01:21:49,280 --> 01:21:58,759
Speaker 2: There you go, ladies and gentlemen, Thank yoursees for hopefully

1538
01:21:58,840 --> 01:22:01,680
Speaker 2: not to traumatize right now. I won't be at a

1539
01:22:01,880 --> 01:22:06,400
Speaker 2: boss Bill, imday, Bill and sucer Steve. This is a

1540
01:22:07,360 --> 01:22:10,720
Speaker 2: Questlove Quest, Love Supreme, only on Pandora. We will see

1541
01:22:10,720 --> 01:22:25,240
Speaker 2: you over the next go round. H course.

1542
01:22:25,320 --> 01:22:29,280
Speaker 1: Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This classic episode

1543
01:22:29,360 --> 01:22:30,160
Speaker 1: was produced by.

1544
01:22:30,080 --> 01:22:31,560
Speaker 2: The team at Pandora.

1545
01:22:37,200 --> 01:22:40,479
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1546
01:22:40,720 --> 01:22:43,759
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.