Speaker 1: You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Garth. Hi, everybody,
Speaker 1: welcome to I Choose Me.
Speaker 2: This podcast is all about the choices we make and
Speaker 2: where they lead us. This is a special day today
Speaker 2: on the podcast. All of you listeners have gotten to
Speaker 2: know some of the other people in my inner circle,
Speaker 2: but today you get to meet my youngest daughter, Fiona. Hi,
Speaker 2: Fiona Bai.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3: So happy to be here.
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm happy to have you here.
Speaker 2: Now it's I think I've had everyone. Oh maybe not Luca,
Speaker 2: I can't remember. Anyways, Today we're going to talk about
Speaker 2: something that affects both of us, I know, stress and overthinking,
Speaker 2: and we're going to be joined by a psychologist and
Speaker 2: author of Stress Resets, doctor Jenny Taits a little bit later,
Speaker 2: but first I want to kind of just talk about
Speaker 2: the fact that we're overthinkers.
Speaker 1: M hmm, yeah, I know.
Speaker 2: I've been overthinking most of my life, certainly upon becoming
Speaker 2: an adult. I think that's when it really started for me.
Speaker 2: Before I was an adult, I was working in an
Speaker 2: adult environment, so I had a lot of stress, and
Speaker 2: I think that caused me to overthink more than a
Speaker 2: normal person.
Speaker 4: Perhaps I can imagine.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to think of like, what are certain things
Speaker 2: I overthink about? What are things that you overthink everything? Everything?
Speaker 4: But I feel like recently it's gotten worse as I've
Speaker 4: gotten a little bit older, with all the stresses and
Speaker 4: end of high school and all that, just thinking about
Speaker 4: my future and stuff. But yeah, yeah, honestly, I feel
Speaker 4: like my brain is constantly on a spiral at all times.
Speaker 4: And I know you sometimes feel like that.
Speaker 2: You said you're a senior. Yeah, for those of you
Speaker 2: that don't know, she's in her senior year of high school.
Speaker 2: And so I think during a senior year for teenagers,
Speaker 2: there is a lot more stress all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: and it comes fast and it comes hard, and you're like,
Speaker 2: wait what.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I remember the first day of senior year. I
Speaker 4: was like so overwhelmed because I had all these college
Speaker 4: applications that I hadn't even started thinking about. But yeah,
Speaker 4: it's been a lot. Even though it's over the college applications,
Speaker 4: I still feel myself like always feelings I have something
Speaker 4: I need to be doing.
Speaker 2: So college preparing is a stressor for you, it makes
Speaker 2: you overthink what else?
Speaker 4: Hm, I feel like just life and future, I beyond college,
Speaker 4: just what I'm gonna do, and every day just where
Speaker 4: you're gonna live, Yeah, where I'm gonna live, Where I'm
Speaker 4: How'm gonna make money.
Speaker 1: Who's gonna do your laundry?
Speaker 3: Exactly? I feel like a lot is just hitting me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what about like social media?
Speaker 3: Social media for sure.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like it's just constantly stressing me out,
Speaker 4: especially TikTok. I feel like recently just scrolling and there's
Speaker 4: always something new that I'm seeing, and sometimes it can
Speaker 4: be really scary, and sometimes it's like just very stressful.
Speaker 4: It feels like there's something always on my mind.
Speaker 1: M hm, how did this?
Speaker 2: I don't know how the TikToker works. Do you like
Speaker 2: pick who you're gonna follow and that's all you see
Speaker 2: or do you get random stuff all the day? No?
Speaker 4: Well, yes, you can follow certain people, but there's also
Speaker 4: like a for you page, which isn't really for me
Speaker 4: anymore because I feel like my algorithm is so weird recently,
Speaker 4: and like it'll just show me random videos of like
Speaker 4: stressful things and it's like I got hooked to them,
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 2: And before you know it, you're yeah, yeah, it's like.
Speaker 4: Ten minutes long, and I just keep watching, keep watching,
Speaker 4: and I feel like I just think about that all day.
Speaker 2: And well, for example, like, what's an example of something
Speaker 2: you saw that made you think about it all day?
Speaker 5: Well, the other day I saw the saddest edit of
Speaker 5: like just the state of the world right now and
Speaker 5: all that stuff, and it just kind of got me
Speaker 5: thinking and stressing about these greater things than I am,
Speaker 5: and you know, climate changed.
Speaker 4: And all these things that I shouldn't really have to
Speaker 4: be worrying about, but like I am, And I feel
Speaker 4: like it just escalates it so much on TikTok, because
Speaker 4: it's once you watch one video, then there's another video
Speaker 4: about it, and the amount of times you're watching the
Speaker 4: video then gives you more videos like that, and it's
Speaker 4: just it's a lot.
Speaker 3: It's very stressful.
Speaker 2: So your algorithm isn't just puppies anymore.
Speaker 1: No, it's not.
Speaker 4: I mean I thought it was. And then you watch
Speaker 4: one video about World war and then there's ten videos
Speaker 4: about World war and then it's like I don't even
Speaker 4: know how that got there, but.
Speaker 1: Oh man, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: I Mean when I was younger, I didn't have those
Speaker 2: kind of stressors. I didn't have that access to all
Speaker 2: the bad things happening all across the world. Yeah, my
Speaker 2: fingertips exactly.
Speaker 4: There's like a lot of news channels on tichnokal news
Speaker 4: accounts that just.
Speaker 3: Kind of update.
Speaker 4: I remember when the were happening in California, every single
Speaker 4: video my for you page was about the fires and
Speaker 4: how they're getting worse. And it can be really stressful
Speaker 4: because not only does it set you into thinking about that,
Speaker 4: but then when you turn off TikTok, that's also all
Speaker 4: you can think about, and then you're you know, spiraling
Speaker 4: and just going off in your head about it.
Speaker 2: So I'm sure that can be really hard on a person,
Speaker 2: especially a young person's nervous system. Yeah, yeah, that doesn't
Speaker 2: I remember when you know, social media started for you,
Speaker 2: and I think my biggest concerns were like, oh no,
Speaker 2: she's gonna see naked people or like poorn or something
Speaker 2: like that was my biggest concern. But I think just
Speaker 2: the state of the world and politics and everything right
Speaker 2: now is more concerning than that. Okay, that's so true.
Speaker 2: As a mother and a daughter, let's talk about what
Speaker 2: causes each of us to get stressed with each other.
Speaker 2: Because you're the baby of the family. I was the
Speaker 2: baby of the family, so we have a lot in
Speaker 2: common you. I think you know that we're very similar.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you like that. It's good, right,
Speaker 2: but what do you think? I'll just tell you what
Speaker 2: are some of the things that I get stressed about
Speaker 2: with you?
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, here we go.
Speaker 2: How about for the Super Bowl, you decided to go
Speaker 2: into your stepdad's closet and take out one of his
Speaker 2: vintage Eagles shirts from when he was a child, and
Speaker 2: you decided to be a good idea to cut it
Speaker 2: into a tummy show. Yeah, who's cute.
Speaker 1: That stressed me out.
Speaker 2: You look really cute, but he did not look so cute.
Speaker 1: I mean no, okay.
Speaker 3: It was at the bottom of his dresser.
Speaker 2: And yes, that's where you keep things that are important
Speaker 2: to you.
Speaker 1: Probably just moving forward.
Speaker 4: It says something like, what did it say? It's just
Speaker 4: it doesn't matter, he said, I manage what it said,
Speaker 4: because it said like you want a piece of this,
Speaker 4: get in line or.
Speaker 2: Some Oh you like the slogan. Okay, well you can
Speaker 2: explain that to him further. One of the other things
Speaker 2: that stresses me out is when you drive. Every time
Speaker 2: you walk out the door. I stress out until you
Speaker 2: walk back in the door. That's not your fault, that's
Speaker 2: just being a mom. Yeah. I stress about your stress
Speaker 2: level honestly, Like I worry that you have too many
Speaker 2: things to deal with at such a young age. I
Speaker 2: stress also about just your experience. I stress so much
Speaker 2: about you being on the social media because I see
Speaker 2: you in the morning, you're on it, and right before
Speaker 2: you go to sleep, you're on it like you're going
Speaker 2: to sleep with some maybe not so great imagery and messaging.
Speaker 4: I feel like I try to do a good job
Speaker 4: of you did trying, but it can be.
Speaker 3: A lot sometimes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you stress out when with regard to me?
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't even know. I feel like it's
Speaker 4: just a constant stress sometimes with like you know, making
Speaker 4: you proud and all that, and I mean, I don't
Speaker 4: really know what I stress about with you.
Speaker 2: What do you mean making me proud? Like you stress
Speaker 2: about making me proud?
Speaker 1: Grades I want to.
Speaker 3: Make you proud, but you do.
Speaker 4: Sometimes the way I act can be I have a
Speaker 4: lot in my head and a lot I'm overthinking about.
Speaker 4: Sometimes I lash out at you or you know, I
Speaker 4: can get irritable and stuff like that, and I and
Speaker 4: I stress about how you think of me and stuff
Speaker 4: like that. So I do I stress about when you're stressed.
Speaker 4: I can feel it by the way I know when
Speaker 4: you're stressed.
Speaker 1: These are both It makes me stress. So, yeah, we're
Speaker 1: gonna have to talk to the doctor about that.
Speaker 3: I do want to know how to deal with that.
Speaker 2: H Do you stress about the way you look? Do
Speaker 2: you stress about things like that?
Speaker 4: Yeah? I think that's always a stress in a lot
Speaker 4: of people's minds, absolutely, especially with social media and all that.
Speaker 4: I think like it's very heightened the way the girls
Speaker 4: see each other like themselves right now in comparison to others,
Speaker 4: comparing yourself. I stress about like what people think of
Speaker 4: me all the time, even though I try to not
Speaker 4: so is you know high school too has been really
Speaker 4: hard for me. I know, like I know other people
Speaker 4: have had hard times too, but it's very stressful. A
Speaker 4: lot of girls pitted against each other, a lot of
Speaker 4: conflict and drama, and that just make someone stress about
Speaker 4: who they are though.
Speaker 2: That that whole competition with girls your age or just
Speaker 2: other girls in general, is so damaging. Yeah, And you
Speaker 2: can you know if you start that in high school
Speaker 2: you carry that around with you for a while, Yeah,
Speaker 2: until someday you're just free of it and it's the
Speaker 2: best feeling ever. But I remember that feeling as a
Speaker 2: young adult, certainly a young girl working as an actress.
Speaker 2: That made me feel like I was against other girls times,
Speaker 2: and I hated that feeling.
Speaker 4: It stresses you out because you know that that's not
Speaker 4: who you are and that's not what you want to do.
Speaker 4: But then it feels in the moment that that's what's happening,
Speaker 4: you know, And it also causes you to overthink. I
Speaker 4: know it causes me to overthink a lot, just kind
Speaker 4: of going on in your head down this spiral of
Speaker 4: like am I good enough? What? You know?
Speaker 3: All those thoughts that come up?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so all the thoughts that's the ruminating. I think
Speaker 2: that's the like obsessing on one thought and then it
Speaker 2: sort of just spirals and you start thinking about all
Speaker 2: the other bad thoughts that can.
Speaker 1: Go with it.
Speaker 2: How do you stop yourself from doing that? Before we
Speaker 2: talk to the doctor and find out, Like, I'd love
Speaker 2: to know.
Speaker 4: How she stulls it, But I think sometimes for me
Speaker 4: is I do have a really hard time stopping you
Speaker 4: when I start to like go down that hole. I
Speaker 4: want to ask the doctor this. But I did see
Speaker 4: something where like if you say a certain word out loud,
Speaker 4: it kind of stops.
Speaker 3: The thought cycle.
Speaker 4: I don't know if that's accurate information, but I want
Speaker 4: to know how, like psychologically you can really stop yourself
Speaker 4: from ruminating, because I feel like when I start it,
Speaker 4: just I'm thinking about something and it starts into something else,
Speaker 4: and before I know what, I'm spend forty five minutes
Speaker 4: of just spiraling in my head.
Speaker 2: And I don't even what if you, like, say you're
Speaker 2: ruminating on the way to school about something. When you
Speaker 2: get to school and your body's doing something different and
Speaker 2: you're seeing different things, do you do those thoughts end
Speaker 2: or Yeah?
Speaker 3: I can get distracted.
Speaker 4: Yeah, distraction especially I heard one thing naming just like
Speaker 4: pointing out five things you see and like smell and hear,
Speaker 4: and you know, stuff like that can help you make
Speaker 4: your mind think in a different pattern. But yeah, I
Speaker 4: do get distracted when I start thinking about certain.
Speaker 2: How how do you feel in your body when you're
Speaker 2: at your most stressed? Like where does it show up
Speaker 2: in your body?
Speaker 3: I actually was thinking.
Speaker 4: About that the other day because I don't know if
Speaker 4: I you. But I tend to get really sweaty. That's normady, Okay,
Speaker 4: I really have a problem with that. All my friends
Speaker 4: like nowhere where like sweatywear.
Speaker 1: I don't want to get into that.
Speaker 2: But armpit, sweat, hands, sweat, yes, okay, okay, do your
Speaker 2: feet sweat us?
Speaker 4: You know? But I think I don't know what that
Speaker 4: is about. But definitely very tense.
Speaker 2: I feel tense overall. Do you feel like your shoulders
Speaker 2: are up here?
Speaker 3: Sometimes? Oh? Me too.
Speaker 4: I also genuinely like my head starts to her. I
Speaker 4: don't know, like it's just what I'm thinking so hard
Speaker 4: about something for a long time. It's like I feel
Speaker 4: like I start to get like physically sick about it.
Speaker 2: So you remember when you used to go on airplanes.
Speaker 2: You were eight seven six in those years, and we
Speaker 2: traveled a lot, and you used to get so worked up,
Speaker 2: whether it was f four in the morning when we
Speaker 2: were getting on the way to the airport the night
Speaker 2: before you knew we were taking an airplane, you would
Speaker 2: work yourself up so much, stress about it so much
Speaker 2: that you would oftentimes make yourself sick, like physic I
Speaker 2: can remember physically sick, actually running through the airport to
Speaker 2: catch a flight, and just trying to get back and
Speaker 2: forth to new garbage cans for you to throw up
Speaker 2: in on the way to the gate.
Speaker 4: I definitely think that was thought induced, like fear paralyzing fear,
Speaker 4: Like I was really anxious when I was little. You were, Yeah,
Speaker 4: I know. It was like a bunch of different things.
Speaker 4: And I had those I don't know what that was,
Speaker 4: those ticks I had where I would like have to
Speaker 4: touch the car ceiling when when we were passing a
Speaker 4: red light or else.
Speaker 3: My whole family was gonna die.
Speaker 4: And that was because I was like overthinking, huh so much.
Speaker 2: You have a massively powerful brain. You're so smart, and
Speaker 2: you are so in tune to people's emotions. I think
Speaker 2: that that might make it even harder for a person
Speaker 2: to get control of it. Yeah, so I think it's
Speaker 2: really important that you get control of it. I think
Speaker 2: now would be a really good time to bring in
Speaker 2: doctor Jenny.
Speaker 1: What do you think.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd love to hear what she has to say.
Speaker 3: I'm really excited to me. Let's do it.
Speaker 6: Hi, Hi Jenny, Hi Fiona.
Speaker 3: Hi.
Speaker 2: Fiona was just telling me earlier that she's a big
Speaker 2: fan of yours.
Speaker 4: Yes, I watched you on call her daddy.
Speaker 6: Oh thank you, that was why I got up. Thank you.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, you were listening into our conversation, right I was.
Speaker 6: I was listening in and I firstly like applaud your
Speaker 6: courage and vulnerability, and I also totally relate. I was
Speaker 6: like a professional ruminator until realized that it was a
Speaker 6: toxic habit and that there were ways to free yourself
Speaker 6: from this habit.
Speaker 2: I like that a professional ruminator.
Speaker 6: Sign me up, professional X ruminator.
Speaker 2: I'm hopefully after this episode, I want to be an
Speaker 2: official X ruminator. Do you I think that as parents,
Speaker 2: we kind of disregard our our especially our teenagers stress levels,
Speaker 2: like what maybe not taking the time to fully hear
Speaker 2: them out, or you know, we ourselves as parents are
Speaker 2: so stressed out and spread so thin.
Speaker 3: It seems like.
Speaker 6: There's so much variability between different parents. I think some
Speaker 6: parents can really empathize, and for some parents it's too
Speaker 6: painful and they don't want to hear it and they
Speaker 6: want to try to change the channel or they and
Speaker 6: there's there's like a dance, like you want to be
Speaker 6: empathic and validating, but you don't want to fall into
Speaker 6: co ruminating or like removing together in a way that's
Speaker 6: not helpful. And so I think it really depends. But
Speaker 6: I think the first place that's important to start is
Speaker 6: kind of what do we make of our thinking habits.
Speaker 6: A lot of people think that the conscientious, like responsible
Speaker 6: thing to do is if there's a problem that you
Speaker 6: are trying to figure out, like where you're going to
Speaker 6: go to college or climate change, that keeping it top
Speaker 6: of mind all the time, especially if you're smart, is
Speaker 6: going to somehow lead to some sort of solution or breakthrough.
Speaker 6: Or we have a lot of positive beliefs about worry
Speaker 6: that like if I worry about this, then I'll get
Speaker 6: into my choice school, or I'll keep my family safe.
Speaker 6: But we really need to take a step back and
Speaker 6: kind of see or is kind of overthinking in this
Speaker 6: way actually empowering us or depleting us? And is there
Speaker 6: like a sweet spot where we can like literally schedule ruminating,
Speaker 6: like schedule time to worry, like cap it at twenty minutes,
Speaker 6: like you get twenty minutes to really think about, like
Speaker 6: where do I want to be next fall?
Speaker 2: Is that term you use worry time?
Speaker 6: You could call it worry time, you could call it
Speaker 6: like I call it in stress, resets, reschedule, ruminating. Because
Speaker 6: the problem is is we know, we're really clear that
Speaker 6: the more present in the moment you are, the happier
Speaker 6: you are. And fifty percent of the time we're not
Speaker 6: in the present moment. For the course of the day,
Speaker 6: you could have anywhere between like twelve thousand and sixty
Speaker 6: thousand thoughts. So often we're worrying about things that will
Speaker 6: never happen, and we're anticipating things that are just totally painful.
Speaker 6: But if we can like move worry or overthinking from
Speaker 6: like a news ticker that's like sucking energy and joy
Speaker 6: out of you, or like Fiona so really and courageously
Speaker 6: talked about like causing physical symptoms sweating, nausea, if we
Speaker 6: can sort of see, oh my gosh, I'm doing the thing.
Speaker 6: And there's a lot of different techniques that work for
Speaker 6: different people. I go through, like you know, so many
Speaker 6: tools to break free in this habit and happy to
Speaker 6: go through a bunch.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, give us the tools.
Speaker 4: I'm wondering when you're starting to get into that ruminating
Speaker 4: spiral and you can't even get to yourself to the
Speaker 4: point to be like I need to put this away
Speaker 4: I'm gonna worry about this later. What are some tools
Speaker 4: you could do in that moment that you would give?
Speaker 6: Yeah, and there's so many and different again, like different
Speaker 6: things work for different people. I think this is so
Speaker 6: person specific, Like if like, first, the first thing I
Speaker 6: think is really knowing your triggers, like if you went
Speaker 6: to a high stakes social thing or a college interview
Speaker 6: or you had a stressful conversation with someone, Like knowing
Speaker 6: your triggers like when am I going to be most triggered,
Speaker 6: and then having a game plan for them, like, Okay,
Speaker 6: if I go on a date, prime time for ruminating
Speaker 6: is going to be afterwards, I'm going to be replaying
Speaker 6: what I said and wondering what the person thought. I'm
Speaker 6: going to get into all that. What can I do
Speaker 6: in those moments? And so maybe it's like this seems
Speaker 6: so silly, but like I have little kids and I
Speaker 6: do paint by sticker with them a lot. It's kind
Speaker 6: of like paint by number, but with stickers. Do you
Speaker 6: know what I.
Speaker 2: Mean?
Speaker 6: How can you possibly be like let me perfectly align
Speaker 6: number twelve into this thing and also be so having
Speaker 6: like some sort of compelling I mean, again, there's a
Speaker 6: lot of different tools. But for some people, having a
Speaker 6: activity that requires your full folks that totally blocks you
Speaker 6: from doing something else, whether that's doing the paint by stick,
Speaker 6: or whether that's reading a book that really captivates you,
Speaker 6: whether that's really listening to a friend, baking, whatever. The
Speaker 6: thing is having a specific plan for you of something,
Speaker 6: and like knowing at a time, like I'm doing this thing,
Speaker 6: there's a really good chance afterwards I'm going to be
Speaker 6: tempted to fall into like the tar pits of torturing myself.
Speaker 6: Here's what I can do instead, and something that I
Speaker 6: think works across the board regardless. And I want to
Speaker 6: hear I Fiona and Jennie, what are some of your
Speaker 6: thoughts on what would be kind of a thing that
Speaker 6: would distract you. But one other thing I'll say before
Speaker 6: I get to that is there's a tool that I
Speaker 6: teach in stress resets, which I love. It's called TIP
Speaker 6: and it's an acronym for changing your temperature. This sounds
Speaker 6: so cooky, but like if you took a salad bowl
Speaker 6: with ice water and you hold your breath instet a
Speaker 6: timer for thirty seconds. If you submerge your face in
Speaker 6: the ice water, you so totally transform your nervous system.
Speaker 6: We all have a lot of us think that solutions
Speaker 6: are outside of ourselves, but we have this incredible pharmacy
Speaker 6: within us, Like your body is a walking pharmacy.
Speaker 3: That's so interesting.
Speaker 6: Literally, put your face in a salad wole full of ice.
Speaker 6: Your current weight will slow down. You won't be thinking
Speaker 6: about the same thing. I mean, if you've ever jumped
Speaker 6: in a cold pool, like you're not thinking about anything except.
Speaker 4: Is it the same with like baths and hot water?
Speaker 4: Is it only cold water?
Speaker 6: So my response is like a special like evolutionary thing
Speaker 6: that our bodies do. We're like drowning. So it's with
Speaker 6: cold water and specifically like holding your breath and getting
Speaker 6: your nose submerged.
Speaker 2: That's a problem for me. I can't do that, but
Speaker 2: I don't like the water.
Speaker 6: Cold, Okay, So that's cold water. The rest of the
Speaker 6: acronym of tip is intense exercise. And that's like ninety
Speaker 6: seconds not ninety minutes. If you start doing burpies, like
Speaker 6: you cannot be doing burpies and like replaying a conversation
Speaker 6: that you think badly, and so ninety seconds of burpies, paste,
Speaker 6: breathing breathing in for five five again very cognitively like sorbing,
Speaker 6: Like you can't be counting your breath. And we could
Speaker 6: even do this together, like breathing in for five with
Speaker 6: our nose and out for five with our nose.
Speaker 2: It always resets you so nicely, right the breathing.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And then progressive muscle relaxation. That tip is two peas,
Speaker 6: tensing and relaxing your muscles, like from head to toe.
Speaker 6: These are like quick things in the moment, but bigger picture,
Speaker 6: we also really need to work on accepting uncertainty, like
Speaker 6: we need to drop the rope and know that we'll
Speaker 6: never know like what other people totally think of us,
Speaker 6: or what's going to happen tomorrow, or what climate change
Speaker 6: is going to do in fifteen years. But I think
Speaker 6: we need tools for the moment and tools make picture.
Speaker 6: But I'm so curious, Jennie, and if you wona, what
Speaker 6: are some things that would help you get really present
Speaker 6: even if you feel like you're on the cusp of
Speaker 6: spiraling and once you it's stuck, it's hard to stop.
Speaker 2: You go first me. Yeah, I know you like to
Speaker 2: take baths.
Speaker 4: I read I'm a big bath taker. I love taking
Speaker 4: baths I also love.
Speaker 2: But do you ever sit in the bathtub and just
Speaker 2: think about your problems more so?
Speaker 4: Yes, that's usually how they go. But recently I've been
Speaker 4: trying to. I've been taking a lot of my books
Speaker 4: with me in the bath and honestly reading. I think,
Speaker 4: especially with social media and phone time and all that stuff,
Speaker 4: being a teenager brings. I think, the books and reading
Speaker 4: and really slowing down and thinking about something else that's
Speaker 4: helping me and stuff like that helps a lot for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's something right, doctor Jenny about the reading and
Speaker 2: the eyes going back and forth. It like does something
Speaker 2: to your brain, right.
Speaker 6: I think even what you just said was so brilliant,
Speaker 6: Like leaving the phone, I mean again, like the phone
Speaker 6: and I know you guys were talking about that the
Speaker 6: phone is like training me to jump and red like
Speaker 6: you can't. I mean you don't want to. You need
Speaker 6: to pay attention. You need to like use your full
Speaker 6: brain to like remember who is this carricter? Or what
Speaker 6: do they say? And so I love what you're saying
Speaker 6: for you, and I like stacking things like it's not
Speaker 6: just the bath, it's getting rid of the phone plus
Speaker 6: the bath. Plus maybe there's a pleasant smell. Plus the book,
Speaker 6: we have like a whole plan of the things that
Speaker 6: will really center you in this moment, Jenny, What are
Speaker 6: some of the things.
Speaker 2: That I find nature to be really helpful for me
Speaker 2: with any kind of stress reduction? And I feel like
Speaker 2: playing with my dogs, like looking into the eyes of
Speaker 2: my dogs and connecting with them and taking care of them.
Speaker 2: I've always, my whole life been a person that loves
Speaker 2: to take care of other people or things, or the
Speaker 2: house or whatever it is. I'm just wired to do
Speaker 2: things like that. So I will sometimes submerge myself in
Speaker 2: a task like cleaning out the sink or you know,
Speaker 2: doing something gardening, something that keeps my mind and my
Speaker 2: hands busy and focused on something else fantastic.
Speaker 6: And I mean, the thing that I found so surprising
Speaker 6: and also like hopeful in my research from writing this
Speaker 6: book was a study where people were asked in a
Speaker 6: lab setting about something really upsetting that happened to them,
Speaker 6: and like fifty percent of the people had the option
Speaker 6: to like eavesdrop on research assistance chatting outside, so just
Speaker 6: people were like having a conversation outside and ninety percent
Speaker 6: of the people who had the chance to eavesdrop, and
Speaker 6: these are strangers. This is not juicy like celebrity you know,
Speaker 6: high school gossip. This is total you know, lab assistant gossip.
Speaker 6: Those people immediately stopped ruminating, but the people that didn't
Speaker 6: have the option to distract continued. And we don't want
Speaker 6: to live a life that's distracting. But by really learning
Speaker 6: it's actually the ruination becomes a distraction before really present
Speaker 6: with our puppies or with reading, then we can get
Speaker 6: more present. And the whole point of all of it
Speaker 6: is to live a life that's angered in the present,
Speaker 6: not having like you know, our minds. That can be
Speaker 6: really tricky.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I find that most times I'm ruminating, it's either
Speaker 4: about the past or the future. It's never about where
Speaker 4: I am in the moment. And I think sometimes when
Speaker 4: I'm getting into those patterns, I do think what do
Speaker 4: I see right now? Like what is happening right now?
Speaker 4: And think about that moment because that kind of anchers
Speaker 4: me down, like you were saying, so that's very helpful.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean a few others. I want to make
Speaker 6: sure that I cover like a whole range of different things.
Speaker 6: So distraction can be helpful if you know that there's
Speaker 6: like a particular window of time, like seven pm to
Speaker 6: nine fifteen at night, or after a high stakes situation,
Speaker 6: having a specific plan of something you could do. But
Speaker 6: if there's something that I've upset you, someone betrayed you,
Speaker 6: or you face some sort of loss, I don't want
Speaker 6: to encourage you to just be distracting and distracting for
Speaker 6: those situations being able to write, you know, expressive writing,
Speaker 6: writing for twenty minutes, and research where people wrote about
Speaker 6: something for twenty minutes the same topic over three days.
Speaker 6: Six months later, they were significantly less depressed and less
Speaker 6: prone to ruminating. So there's something about like actually going
Speaker 6: through something with a beginning, middle and an end, and
Speaker 6: like slowing down and actually letting yourself feel because ruminating
Speaker 6: is just like touching the surface and like a not
Speaker 6: structured way, and so actually like feeling your feelings and
Speaker 6: going through taking the time rather than just kind of
Speaker 6: like you know, playing whack a mole.
Speaker 2: Wait, you said feeling your feelings. I know that in
Speaker 2: your book you suggest giving yourself a panic attack so
Speaker 2: you're less afraid of them.
Speaker 1: And I don't know how to give myself.
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess if I really put my mind
Speaker 2: to it, I could give myself a panic attack.
Speaker 1: But what do you mean by that?
Speaker 6: A lot of people, if they have had panic, are
Speaker 6: totally terrified of the sensations that resemble panic. If you
Speaker 6: have felt short of breath, out of the blue, even
Speaker 6: the like a touch of like breathlessness can lead to
Speaker 6: thoughts of oh no, it's back, what is happening to me?
Speaker 6: How is this happening again? And then your mind and
Speaker 6: your body are doing this like tortuous tango, where your
Speaker 6: thoughts aren't helping your body, and your body is not
Speaker 6: helping your thoughts. It's you know, even if you start
Speaker 6: to sweat, if you like are mentally sweating about sweating,
Speaker 6: that's going to lead to more sweat. Yeah sure, yeah,
Speaker 6: But what happens if you break down exactly what do
Speaker 6: I feel when I'm really stressed? You know, if I
Speaker 6: start to feel really stressed, I feel short of breath,
Speaker 6: I feel a little dizzy, my body feels a little
Speaker 6: bit shaky. Okay, great, we can help you. You know,
Speaker 6: this is not in the peak moment of panic. This
Speaker 6: is preemptively. Let's practice, like, let's set a timer for
Speaker 6: sixty seconds. We can hyperventilate for sixty seconds, we can
Speaker 6: spin in a chair for sixty seconds, we could hold
Speaker 6: a plank. And then once you come to realize that,
Speaker 6: like your body runs itself, you don't need to police it,
Speaker 6: you don't need to judge it. If you like literally
Speaker 6: say oh yeah, been there, done that, I know what
Speaker 6: this is, it loses its bite and the next time
Speaker 6: it shows up, you stop propelling your body with these
Speaker 6: negative thoughts in a bad way. And so this again
Speaker 6: is not like a random idea that I thought of
Speaker 6: in the shower, but this is something that is really
Speaker 6: powerful and across all anxiety conditions, whether social anxiety or
Speaker 6: anxiety about flying, or driving anxiety or panic attacks where
Speaker 6: you're afraid of a specific bodily response.
Speaker 2: So you're saying, let your body have the response, allow
Speaker 2: it to run its course, so you can kind of
Speaker 2: observe it and realize that it's not the end of
Speaker 2: the world.
Speaker 1: It's going to stop eventually.
Speaker 6: Exactly the same some people are afraid of elevators or heights,
Speaker 6: and they need to like face that few you can
Speaker 6: face the view that you can feel short of breath
Speaker 6: and that actually doesn't mean you're dying. That means you're
Speaker 6: short of breath and that will pass and your breath
Speaker 6: will also breathe itself when you stop like hovering over
Speaker 6: it and trying to micromanage it. And this is something
Speaker 6: that a lot of people find can be helpful with
Speaker 6: a therapist. But if you allow yourself to practice like
Speaker 6: sweating and like you know, purposefully putting on a warm
Speaker 6: coat and not sweating about sweating, do you think when
Speaker 6: it came on it would feel less stressful or.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean usually it's just it's not even that
Speaker 4: I realize that I'm sweating. It just happens, and then
Speaker 4: that makes causes me to overthink.
Speaker 3: I do feel like kind.
Speaker 4: Of preparing myself more would stop the scare, like you said,
Speaker 4: because sometimes I like, oh no, I'm sweating, and that
Speaker 4: means I'm overthinking, and then I overthink about overthinking, and
Speaker 4: then you know, I don't even know, But yeah, I
Speaker 4: do think that would help.
Speaker 6: Yeah, maybe it's even when it comes on to not
Speaker 6: judge it, because a huge part of not judging it,
Speaker 6: I mean can't but I imagine if you went to hot
Speaker 6: yoga and you were sweating. I love hot yoga, and
Speaker 6: so you could generalize that, like, okay, sweating is great.
Speaker 6: Sweating is healthy, It is good for you.
Speaker 2: Actually, it's so interesting you said before, you know, when
Speaker 2: you're looking at your social media and stuff, that you
Speaker 2: start to think that you have symptoms of a certain illness, yeah,
Speaker 2: or even like oh, when I get a sore throat,
Speaker 2: then you start this is something you do. You start
Speaker 2: worrying about your sore throat and thinking, oh, no, something's
Speaker 2: really wrong with me. I have the sore throat and
Speaker 2: it never it doesn't seem to go away because you're
Speaker 2: just focusing on it so much.
Speaker 4: And every time I look up a new symptom online
Speaker 4: on Google, on TikTok especially, tell me a new thing.
Speaker 4: So I'm like, okay, I have this now, and then
Speaker 4: I also have this disease and all these things, and
Speaker 4: in reality I'm fine. But it's just I just have
Speaker 4: this constant worrying fear of health for some reason, and
Speaker 4: I don't really know why or how to.
Speaker 1: What do you think, doctor.
Speaker 6: That like we have to accept some amount of uncertainty,
Speaker 6: like we don't know if it is itchy because it's
Speaker 6: dry in our house or because we might be getting
Speaker 6: strap or something else. I mean, And so I think
Speaker 6: accepting in this moment, it's okay. It's okay because we
Speaker 6: can just watch like thinking those thoughts can lead to
Speaker 6: more symptoms and then maybe you're losing time to do
Speaker 6: something that is, you know, writing a report or calling
Speaker 6: a friend back. And so a lot of people think
Speaker 6: it's helpful to like Google, but Google is really accepting
Speaker 6: it in a situation where you have recurrent fears that
Speaker 6: like you're almost like nine times out of ten, it's like, oh,
Speaker 6: this is just help anxiety. I know that I have this,
Speaker 6: and I do this. I talk about something else in
Speaker 6: the book that a lot of people find fun is
Speaker 6: if you have a recurrent like stressful thought that never
Speaker 6: helps you, like I'm making something up, but like I'm
Speaker 6: going to die, and when you're not, you know, it's
Speaker 6: like you have you know, an itchy throat does not
Speaker 6: mean you're going to die. If you can sing that
Speaker 6: I'm going to die to like an upbeat tune, it
Speaker 6: automatically is like, oh, yeah, this is what you know,
Speaker 6: This is what I do in these situations. I tell myself.
Speaker 6: It's like almost like if you don't have plans on
Speaker 6: a Friday night and you tell yourself you're a loser
Speaker 6: instead of really believing that and like syncing into that,
Speaker 6: and then then spending the night on social media and
Speaker 6: seeing what other people are doing, and then it really
Speaker 6: feels even more real. What if you sing I'm a
Speaker 6: loser for like a second to a fun song.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm a loser, Like, yeah, it's the same thing.
Speaker 6: With it, I'm going to die. It's like, okay, you're
Speaker 6: not going to die. Like the second you sing the song,
Speaker 6: it loses it's sting. And do you have some perspective
Speaker 6: because it Another huge way to change your relationship with
Speaker 6: ruminating is even just seeing like thoughts are mental events.
Speaker 6: Like thoughts are mental events, we can get above them.
Speaker 6: We can see our thoughts the same way we see
Speaker 6: clouds in the sky or but they also create very
Speaker 6: real feelings. If I ask you to think about biting
Speaker 6: into a lemon, and your mouth will start to water.
Speaker 6: But if you can get above that and just see
Speaker 6: this is just a mental event, I don't need to
Speaker 6: get sucked in. Just because I thought about alignment doesn't
Speaker 6: mean that there's a limen in my mouth.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Sometimes when I will have a thought that doesn't make
Speaker 2: me feel great, I'll just say that's interesting. I wonder
Speaker 2: what that's about, you know, and then it kind of
Speaker 2: just without judgment, thinking yeah yeah, and then say we'll
Speaker 2: see what happens with that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I love that so much. I was at a conference,
Speaker 6: a psychology conference, and a colleague he was like an
Speaker 6: older senior person when I was in grad school, and
Speaker 6: I had gone to his workshop and so we sort
Speaker 6: of knew each other. And he came up to me
Speaker 6: at the conference and he was like, oh, are you
Speaker 6: giving a talk? And I said, oh, no, I'm not
Speaker 6: giving a talk. You said why not? And I said, oh,
Speaker 6: I'm not very good at giving talks. And he looks
Speaker 6: at me and he was like, did you thank your
Speaker 6: mind for that thought? And it was like such a
Speaker 6: light bulb moment, like do you mind that thought? Like wow?
Speaker 6: Like me me, I'm not good at giving talks. It
Speaker 6: is like a story my mind.
Speaker 1: You're telling yourself. Yeah, And I.
Speaker 6: Can think of my mind for that thought, like thank
Speaker 6: you mind, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you can then you can say oh, thank
Speaker 2: you very much for coming, but no, thank you not
Speaker 2: right now?
Speaker 6: Yeah, Or you could play with it like I joke
Speaker 6: with my clients like what if your thoughts are like
Speaker 6: Susie from Curb Your Enthusiasm. You know you automatically. I
Speaker 6: don't know if you want to get the reference. Maybe
Speaker 6: we look like that we need to figure out some
Speaker 6: like annoying, complaining kind of character. Yeah, it's because again
Speaker 6: we get sucked into ruminating because we think that we're
Speaker 6: somehow helping ourselves.
Speaker 2: We're going to figure it out if we think about
Speaker 2: it more and more, we're going to figure it out.
Speaker 6: Let's think about it in a structured way, or let's
Speaker 6: see it with distance and humor and perspective.
Speaker 2: What about when, like we as mother and daughter, we
Speaker 2: have stress over a topic or a situation, how can
Speaker 2: we handle that better in a way that's good for
Speaker 2: our relationship at the end of the day.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean so I think talking about things in
Speaker 6: a constructive way. And so if there's something that happened
Speaker 6: like the Eagles T shirt or something like if you
Speaker 6: can have a timestamp like okay, let's talk about this
Speaker 6: for fifteen minutes and then let's get really present and
Speaker 6: do what we would do on a normal Sunday night.
Speaker 6: Because I think a lot of people think the more
Speaker 6: they turn it over, they're more they're again like gonna
Speaker 6: prevent it from happening again or create some sort of
Speaker 6: brand new insight. But can we try to understand this
Speaker 6: with compassion and kindness, will validate one another At the
Speaker 6: end of the day, all we want is to feel
Speaker 6: understood and see and if you and I can totally
Speaker 6: see how you would like this is the perfect shirt,
Speaker 6: Like no one could, guys, sure better than this. Oh,
Speaker 6: this shirt really means a lot to to your stepdad
Speaker 6: and what may be a way to repair this with him?
Speaker 6: So again, like, if we can contain it, because I
Speaker 6: think we get into it. It's fine to talk to
Speaker 6: your friends about something that's stressing you out, or to
Speaker 6: complain to someone about something, but can we you know,
Speaker 6: make it ten minutes not two hours?
Speaker 3: That's good, that's a good.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think sometimes when you're in the heat of the moment,
Speaker 2: we're you know, butting heads about something, we don't ever
Speaker 2: really have a conversation about it. We just kind of
Speaker 2: vent and pop off about it.
Speaker 4: And that also causes me to ruminate about it more
Speaker 4: when we stop talking.
Speaker 2: So it's better to just sort of sit down, give
Speaker 2: us that two minutes or three minutes or five minutes,
Speaker 2: whatever we need. Yeah, I like that. It's a great tip.
Speaker 6: The problem solving. Problem solving is a good alternative to
Speaker 6: ruminating instead of like what if?
Speaker 4: What if?
Speaker 6: What if? Can know? Problem solve? This?
Speaker 2: Problem solving that's something we don't think about enough. We
Speaker 2: just think about the problem. Yeah, I think I taught
Speaker 2: you this before. One of the things that my best
Speaker 2: friend Adele, who's a therapist, taught me was when I'm
Speaker 2: spiraling or ruminating or like feel like I'm gonna lose
Speaker 2: it because I can't stop thinking about something, to envision
Speaker 2: a stop sign. To see the stop sign in my mind,
Speaker 2: the octagonal shapes, the edges, the white line around the border,
Speaker 2: the color of the sign, the way that the letters
Speaker 2: are white within the red and follow each letter in
Speaker 2: my mind. And then by the end of it, I've
Speaker 2: stopped thinking about whatever I was thinking about. And it's
Speaker 2: just ironic that it's the stop sign. It's just a bonus.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And there's a skill that we teach. I teach
Speaker 6: as part of dialectical behavior therapy. Stop, slow down, take
Speaker 6: a step back, observe, and proceed mindfully.
Speaker 2: Would like that Stop, take a step back, step back,
Speaker 2: slow down, Yeah, observe pndfully Already Oh my gosh, this
Speaker 2: has been such a great conversation. Thank you, doctor Jenny.
Speaker 2: I know that Fiona, you've loved it too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is really helpful for me.
Speaker 2: Uh, Before I let you go, I have to ask
Speaker 2: you a question that I always ask my guests, Doctor Jenny,
Speaker 2: What was the last I Choose me moment you had?
Speaker 6: One?
Speaker 5: Is?
Speaker 6: I find like people find social media so distracting. I
Speaker 6: find texting is so distracting. And I just yesterday someone
Speaker 6: asked me to join a WhatsApp and I very proudly
Speaker 6: told them that I don't use WhatsApp because it's like this.
Speaker 6: I love like I Choose Me moments that are just
Speaker 6: in distances but dramatically overhaul your quality of life. And
Speaker 6: so much like ruminating takes us out of this moment,
Speaker 6: constantly texting and messaging, of being really present and so not.
Speaker 1: Having what's upp was your voment?
Speaker 6: I love that group texts. Yeah, this constant noise and
Speaker 6: pining and overthinking. And then the second one is even
Speaker 6: in this moment, I think I'm all about removing negatives
Speaker 6: and adding positives and even just taking a moment to
Speaker 6: really savor this moment. I you know, it's crazy. I
Speaker 6: used to watch Nina Tuna when I was Fiona's age.
Speaker 6: It is surreal. I never would have thought when I
Speaker 6: was an adolescent struggling with self doubt that I would
Speaker 6: be sitting across from you today.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm so glad you are because you're helping so
Speaker 2: many people. So thank you. I know you helped us.
Speaker 3: Yes, thank you.
Speaker 2: I'm savoring this moment too, me too. Thank you, doctor Jenny.
Speaker 6: Nice to see you, guys, Please stay in touch.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, nice to see you too. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: didn't you love that conversation?
Speaker 3: I loved it. It was really helpful.
Speaker 2: You know what always amazes me about you. You have
Speaker 2: a great self awareness about you, Like you know the
Speaker 2: things that you would like to do differently. I think
Speaker 2: you know, you know areas of your life that you're like,
Speaker 2: I need to improve that a little bit or I
Speaker 2: kind of don't want to be stuck in my thoughts
Speaker 2: it doesn't feel good, and like you seek out ways
Speaker 2: to make changes in your life. And I respect that
Speaker 2: so much about you. Because you're just eighteen years old.
Speaker 2: I wasn't doing any of that kind of helpful, you know,
Speaker 2: thinking about thinking, Yeah, at my age.
Speaker 3: You know, yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, you're just so ahead of where I was.
Speaker 2: I'm proud of being so much. Okay, but before I
Speaker 2: let you go, Fiona Vatchinelle, what was your last I
Speaker 2: choose me moment?
Speaker 4: Okay, let me think. You know, I feel like I've
Speaker 4: been doing this a lot recently. I don't know if
Speaker 4: you've noticed, but I've been taking a lot of baths,
Speaker 4: like I said earlier, and I feel like it just
Speaker 4: is kind of a time for me to unwind from
Speaker 4: my day. And I know sometimes I want to bring
Speaker 4: my computer with me, like on my little like, you know,
Speaker 4: prop it up some more and watch my show while
Speaker 4: I'm in the bath. But like two nights ago, instead
Speaker 4: of doing that, I actually read like literally half of
Speaker 4: my new book that I got, And I think that
Speaker 4: was just a really good moment where I put myself
Speaker 4: first and I was in a ruminating spiral, so it
Speaker 4: did help me. And yeah, I think reading and taking
Speaker 4: time for myself away from the phone is really just
Speaker 4: recently what I've been feeling like, I'm choosing myself more.
Speaker 1: That's so good.
Speaker 2: I'm glad you're getting that now because I've been telling
Speaker 2: you to get off that damn phone.
Speaker 1: It's happening.
Speaker 3: I'm trying.
Speaker 1: Wait, what book did you take in the bath.
Speaker 4: With the Actually you got it for me for Christmas.
Speaker 3: It was the one.
Speaker 4: It's called Choosing Myself. I don't know the author. It's
Speaker 4: called Choosing Me, and it's all about how to choose yourself.
Speaker 1: Of that great.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really good. Also.
Speaker 4: Another one is one hundred and one Essays That'll Change
Speaker 4: the Way You Think. Best book ever. I reread it
Speaker 4: all the time. Brianna West I think is the author.
Speaker 3: It's great.
Speaker 2: Good hot tip yep from the eighteen year old you guys,
Speaker 2: You're welcome. Thanks babe, thank you for having me.
Speaker 4: It's so much fun and learned a lot