1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and Joe McCormick. As we've 4 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: discussed on the show before, memory is a complex topic. 5 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: There are things we remember, there are things we forget, 6 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,159 Speaker 1: There are the things we only think we've forgotten, and 7 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: then there are the numerous ways in which altered memories 8 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: are stored and then retrieved as if they're fact. Memory 9 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,959 Speaker 1: is powerful, it's beautiful, it's dangerous at times, and it's 10 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: essential to human culture and the human experience. In this episode, 11 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: we're gonna be looking at some of the issues related 12 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: to memory and music because the way we think about, 13 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: store and recall music. I feel like this helps illuminate 14 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: what's going on in the complexity of memory. And it's 15 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: also something that's that's that's highly relatable. We can we 16 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: can all dip in on the this particular topic, and 17 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: I look forward to hearing from listeners about it. But 18 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: also we're dealing with something that's you know, slightly intangible. 19 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: You know, you try and when you try and think 20 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: and talk about how you remember music, how songs stick 21 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: with you over the ages, and what songs mean to you. Uh, 22 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:20,040 Speaker 1: you know, you know, you get into a lot of 23 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: interesting territory. Sure. I mean, I think one of the 24 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: most common things that we can all relate to is 25 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: the way that music has, uh such a powerful ability 26 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 1: to evoke by gone places and times that you know, 27 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: to to just sort of like put you right back 28 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: in the mindset of you know, that summer, the year 29 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: that you were nineteen years old or whatever. Um. And 30 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: it's kind of strange why sequences of sounds do that 31 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: seemingly so much more than almost any other, uh stimulus 32 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: of any kind. Yeah, yeah, they you know, there's a 33 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: lot of nostalgia tied up in music, and uh, you know, 34 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: I I thought I might share a personal example of 35 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: of how I sometimes feel like I'm haunted by music. 36 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: Sharing this because I think it's a good example for 37 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: our discussion, but also, deep down, I have this secret 38 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: hope that somebody will will help me identify this or 39 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:15,799 Speaker 1: send me a maybe just you know, send me a 40 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: VHS tape that will answer my question. Uh. And I 41 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: imagine people out there have had similar, many similar experiences. 42 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: So as a child home one summer and watching lots 43 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: of daytime television. I saw a commercial for a community 44 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: college or state college. I'm not sure which, but it 45 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: I seem to recall it was probably a regional advertisement. 46 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: This might have been for it might have been a 47 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: college in Tennessee, or it might have been a college 48 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,279 Speaker 1: in Kentucky. I'm not sure which, but it contained various 49 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: splashes of technology and humanities classes. It showed footage of people, 50 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: you know, tinkering with some electronic equipment, uh, you know, 51 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: doing some other stuff that looked vocational. And it also 52 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:02,399 Speaker 1: contained uh, footage of the stage performance featuring what I 53 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: think was a Cyclops, like a large scale Cyclops costume 54 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: that towered over people. It might have been a minotaur, 55 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: but I think it was a Cyclops. You can respect 56 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,519 Speaker 1: their advertising department saying, okay, we got a bunch of 57 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 1: footage of the stage productions. What what what goes front 58 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: and center in the commercial? It's got to be the monster? Yeah, yeah, 59 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: I mean it made an impression on my mind. But 60 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: what also made an impression was the music in this commercial, 61 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 1: because at the at the time and as I look 62 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: back on it, it felt like the music of the future. 63 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: It was some sort of glistening retro sounding synth and 64 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: I've never been able to find out exactly what it was. 65 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: I've I've never found like footage uploaded on YouTube of 66 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: this particular advertisement, and as far as I know that, 67 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: the commercials just lost to history. And again it was 68 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: likely very regional. But listening to Boards of Canada, the 69 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: musical duo years later whose specializes and often very nostalgic, 70 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: founding sounding retro synthies tracks, um, I did listen to 71 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: a track titled M nine off of Old Tunes Volume one, 72 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: and it either it reminds me a lot of what 73 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: was the of the song that was in this advertisement. 74 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 1: It reminds me so much that I'm tempted to wonder 75 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: if this was the track somehow. This is funny because 76 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: to me, the Boards of Canada very much is the 77 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: sound of like an a trium in a in an 78 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: institutional building on a college campus that has like sort 79 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: of futuristic looking staircases exagging around and like an orange 80 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: carpet or something exactly. That's I mean, that's the complicating thing, right. 81 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 1: The kind of sounds that the Boards of Canada excels 82 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 1: at crafting are are sounds that are reaching back towards 83 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: the time period, like they're they're they're kind of reverse 84 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 1: engineering the sort of sounds I would have heard in 85 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: this advertisement. And I'm not sure exactly when I would 86 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: have listened to this advertisement. The tape in question, Old 87 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 1: tun Tunes Volume one, came out, and I think, but 88 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: I'm yeah, I'm not sure how the timelines add up here, 89 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: And if they do add up, I'm not sure exactly 90 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: how that track would have wound up on this commercial. 91 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: And like I say, in Tennessee or Kentucky or something, 92 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: um and and again, I'll likely never have the answer 93 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: to it. But every time I listen to that track 94 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 1: M nine, it takes me back to that experience of 95 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: watching this this advertisement and sort of glimpsing into this 96 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: possibility of what the future was like, what college might 97 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: be like, what adulthood might be like, what you know, 98 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: a life of technology or art, what that might consist of. 99 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting. I don't know if you're even 100 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: aware you said this, but that your vision of the 101 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 1: future necessarily includes consciously retro elements, like retro sounding synth. 102 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: Is what you what you think of when you think 103 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: of the future. Yeah, it's it's weird. Yeah, And and 104 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 1: and I'm still kind of tied to this where I 105 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: see like there's certain building styles which are no longer modern, 106 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 1: that are very much retro, but they still look like 107 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: the future to me because they looked like in many cases, 108 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: they look like you know these strange, you know, collegiate 109 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: buildings that I saw when I was a child, you know, 110 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: some of these buildings that were probably built in the 111 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies that we're you know, super reliant on air 112 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: conditioning and maybe didn't have as much natural life. Like 113 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: the atrium and overdrawn at the Memory Bank, and it's 114 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: both it is both of the past and of the future. 115 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: Yeah that that I forget which atrium was used in 116 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: that movie, but they made great use of an atrium there. Uh, 117 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: there are various other sci fi films. I love it 118 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: when it's clear that they're filming inside of a hotel 119 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: or a mall and making him look like some sort 120 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: of like a futuristic building. Absolutely love it. And to 121 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: that extent, I love just being in a large atrium. 122 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: There is that. I mean, these are like cathedrals, they're 123 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: just the god at the center of it is just 124 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: the hotel chain. They give you a brutal hanker in 125 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: for some cinemas. Sorry, the overdrawn of the memory bank 126 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: jokes can can stop right now. Well, you know everything 127 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: that I've talked about so far, We've been talking about 128 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: the boards of Canada. We've been talking about music that 129 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: had that is that is completely um instrumental, it has 130 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: no lyrics because once you start talking about lyrics, Uh, this, 131 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: this adds an entirely different dimension to everything. Yeah, So 132 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: this is something that I wanted to talk about because 133 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: I came across a paper that I thought was pretty interesting. Um, 134 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: So I guess here's the best way to introduce it. 135 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: I'm gonna start with a couple of questions for anybody 136 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: who ever did school theater as a kid, If you 137 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: were in plays when you're in you know, elementary school 138 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: or whatever. If you ever had a speaking part in 139 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: a play, can you still now remember any of your lines? 140 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: And if so, how much can you remember? And then 141 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: the second part is uh, same time of your life, 142 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: If you ever had a singing part the musical, can 143 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: you still remember the lyrics to any of the songs? 144 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: If you are anything like me, you probably find that 145 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: you don't really remember many spoken lines from childhood plays. 146 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: Most of the ones that stick in my head are 147 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: I think they're memorable because something like maybe something funny 148 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: or otherwise memorable happened during practice of the scene they're in, 149 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: so they sort of become a part of an episodic memory. 150 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: But but even examples like that are are pretty rare 151 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: in my memory. But I I can quite easily and 152 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: immediately remember all kinds of lyrics from songs that I 153 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: sang many years ago and haven't practiced since, songs from 154 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: the Pirates of Penzance or or like a musical adaptation 155 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: of god knows what kind of weird stuff I was 156 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: in as as a child, But like the lyrics have 157 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: stayed in my brain for twenty plus years. Yeah, my 158 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: my experience is much the same. Um. You know. I 159 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: think back on plays that I was in and and 160 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: and in some cases I had like pretty major roles, 161 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: had a lot of lines to remember, Like I believe 162 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: I was in a community production of other people's money, 163 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: and I remember nothing. I had nothing at all that 164 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: I said from that play, uh, which which on one 165 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: hand I understand because I didn't like love that play. 166 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: I mean, it was an enjoyable experience at the time. 167 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: But it's not like my favorite play or anything, So 168 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: it makes sense that I would maybe make room for 169 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: other things in my memory and sort of flush that information. Um. 170 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: But then, and but then. I also think back on 171 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: musical community theater musicals I was in, and in some 172 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 1: cases I had pretty major roles there. I was in 173 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: a production of seventeen seventy six, and I don't remember 174 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: any of the music from that. I don't remember. I 175 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: remember the costumes and sort of the experience, but I 176 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: remember no words that came out of my mouth. Well, 177 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: for me, I don't know how much it has to do. 178 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think I have any particular love 179 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: for like the Pirates of pens Ants, but I could 180 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: still rather. You know, I am the very model of 181 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: a modern major general. All the you know, the from 182 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: Marathon to Waterloo in order categorical And this is interesting 183 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: to me because in both cases the lines I spoke 184 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: in the lyrics I sang are collections of verbal text. 185 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: In both cases, I would have made a conscious effort 186 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: to memorize them, and I would have practiced them by 187 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: repeating them out loud over and over. But for the 188 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: most part, the spoken lines for me completely fade away, 189 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 1: and a lot of the song lyrics have remained. They 190 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: have way more staying power overall. Obviously I don't remember 191 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: all of them, So what's making the difference? Yeah? This, this, 192 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: This is interesting because I also think back on things 193 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: that I liked. For instance, um, I had to learn 194 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: the Dagger monologue from Macbeth Forum, just a Shakespearean acting 195 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: class I took once and I love I love that monologue, 196 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: a great monologue, And there have been times since then 197 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: where I kind of wish I could just belt that 198 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 1: monologue in its entirety, but I cannot. It's it's mostly 199 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: gone just with you know, a few lines remain, and 200 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: if I read it, you know, it comes sort of 201 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 1: comes back to me a little bit. But then there 202 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: are things like Don McClain's American Pie, a song that 203 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: I have never performed. It's not like community theater or 204 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: something where I had to get up and actually performed 205 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,319 Speaker 1: this stuff in front of people and work through memorize 206 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 1: and work through stage fright. But with with American Pie, 207 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: I could probably recite all of that right now. I 208 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: haven't listened to it in a in a in a 209 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: long time. But like that, is a that is a 210 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: song where like the entire um uh, you know, the 211 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: entirety of the lyrics, you know, they're just stuck in 212 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: my head and they're not going anywhere. Uh. And it's 213 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: because of the power of the music. I guess, well, 214 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: maybe maybe not. I mean, I guess it's hard to 215 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: say why exactly it is that these lyrics seem to 216 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 1: stick with us for so long. Now. Another thing, just 217 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: from personal experience to sort of inform this question, is 218 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: that I have also, definitely in my life, back when 219 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: I was in school, uh, tried to use melody as 220 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 1: a mnemonic device when trying to memorize things for a test. 221 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: I don't know if you ever did this, but I remember, 222 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 1: like trying to create songs or set things. I was 223 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: trying to remember to the melodies of existing songs. And 224 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: I don't know if it worked for me, but I 225 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 1: at least I thought it might work enough that I 226 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: tried to do it. Well. Yeah, I don't have a 227 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: lot of personal experience with this, but I've I've you know, 228 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:28,719 Speaker 1: I've heard that it works for some people, like some 229 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: people and and in general I'm talking about Western um 230 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 1: sinologists sometimes memorize the dynasties of China by using a 231 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 1: particular song. I forget which a song. Idea is that 232 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: it's like some Western song and then American. It's not, 233 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: but you can you can look it up. I remember 234 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: finding a video of like a couple of old sinologists, 235 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: Western sinologists setting around singing this little childhood tune because 236 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: it's how they both learned the order of the dynasty's. 237 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: So it definitely works for people. But I don't think 238 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: I ever really leaned on it myself. Okay, well I 239 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: would like to hear that. Maybe have to look that 240 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: up later. But so I was wondering a couple of things. 241 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: So first of all, is this preference for at least 242 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:18,079 Speaker 1: the perceived ability to memorize song lyrics over other verbal content. 243 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: Is this just me? And second, is there any evidence 244 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: that this actually works, that this is actually true? So 245 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,199 Speaker 1: the first thing is it seems based on what we've 246 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,319 Speaker 1: been talking about, it may not be universal, but it's 247 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: definitely not just me. I found plenty of articles in 248 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 1: the mainstream press about using music as a mnemonic device 249 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,559 Speaker 1: or a learning tool, and some researchers thinking that that 250 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: music or setting verbal information to music might help people 251 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: remember it better. But the second question would be is 252 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 1: there evidence that it actually works? And there I think 253 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: the evidence might not be a firm yes or no. 254 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: It's actually quite complicated, but complicated in in ways that 255 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: seem pretty interesting and might reveal some things about our 256 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: experience of music and about the way memory works. So 257 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 1: there are actually a ton of studies on the role 258 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: of music and the effects of music on memorization and 259 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: verbal learning. Um, so I I can't do do that 260 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: whole slate of literature. Instead, I wanted to start by 261 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: focusing on one study that I found interesting and then 262 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: maybe comment a little more broadly. So this study was 263 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: published in two thousand seven in the journal Memory and Cognition. 264 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: It is by Omilie Rossett and Isabelle Perettes, and it's 265 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: called learning Lyrics to Sing or Not to Sing. And 266 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: they begin by talking about this existing popular belief that 267 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: we've already been discussing, as well as some empirical evidence 268 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: that music can possibly aid in memory, especially learning of 269 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: verbal information, learning of words. And so they cite a 270 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: few examples, such as previous studies one by Dixon and 271 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: Grant in two thousand three that investigated trying to learned 272 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: the laws of physics through karaoke that sounds both sweet 273 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: and really cringe inducing. And then secondly, they mentioned to 274 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: study my Medina from nineteen three that looked into learning 275 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: English as a second language via songs, with the idea 276 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: that songs might provide an advantage over just normal verbal content. 277 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: But the authors point out that if it's true that 278 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: singing and music help with learning verbal information, it's not 279 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: obvious why that should be the case, because, after all, 280 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: when you learn a song, there's literally more information that 281 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: you have to encode and retrieve than when just learning, 282 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: say that the text of a song, just the lyrics, 283 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: because you're you're adding music on top of it. It 284 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: seems like that would be more to remember, might be distracting, 285 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: and thus would uh, you know, would make things harder. Yeah, 286 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: I mean, if if memory serves uh. Some actors use 287 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: the technique of learning their lines flat without any kind 288 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: of motion added to them, and then that come then 289 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: they build on that later, you know, So they start 290 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: without any additional information aside from the words, and you know, 291 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: of course you know the meaning behind the words, right, 292 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: And though uh, though I guess we we should always 293 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: remember that acting techniques are not necessarily informed by the 294 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: latest memory and cognition. Yeah, like then all these things, 295 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: there's also a certain amount of tradition and different views 296 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: on performance that you know that that may not be 297 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: scientifically verified, right, But that's another thing like we've like 298 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: we were talking about that, you know, at least it 299 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: grows out of personal experience. So you have to wonder 300 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: if there's something there that could be plumbed by empirical research. 301 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: So the authors here are Stt and Parretts. They note 302 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: that in previous studies, the results looking into this question 303 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: on whether music aids in in verbal learning and memory 304 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: formation and retrieval, the results have been kind of mixed. 305 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: But while they're this is not the universal finding, there 306 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,199 Speaker 1: have been a number of studies that show people have 307 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: an easier time recalling sung words over spoken words. Now, 308 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: in their introductory section they talk about a few reasons 309 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: they're hypothesized for why this might be. Why might if 310 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: people do remember words from songs better than the same 311 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 1: words spoken, what what would be going on there? And 312 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: so they say, well, maybe, uh, speed actually plays a role, 313 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: because when you take a text and you sing it, 314 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: generally you will spend a longer time pronouncing the words 315 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: in the text, then if you just read it or 316 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: recite it out loud, and thus it the text is 317 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: sort of less compressed. They also say that the characteristics 318 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: of the melody seem to be important because a simple 319 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,719 Speaker 1: melody that has a very sort of repeated line seems 320 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: to be easier to memorize than complex melodies like you 321 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: might find and say, an opera or something. But then 322 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 1: also that they offer another reason that saw lyrics might 323 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:05,479 Speaker 1: be easier to memorize, which are structural characteristics of the 324 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 1: text that make it easier to recall. So to read 325 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: from their introduction quote, for instance, the metrical structure of 326 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,719 Speaker 1: music and the number of musical notes in a line 327 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: can queue word recall. Similarly, song lyrics are usually constrained 328 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 1: by both semantics, meaning meaning that there is like a 329 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: meaning constraint on what can be said in a song. 330 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 1: So they say a story underlies the words, generally through 331 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: a schema or script. Uh. And then so you you've 332 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: got the semantic constraints. You know, the song sort of 333 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: has to tell a story that makes sense. That certainly 334 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 1: not true of all songs, especially these days. Um. But 335 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: then the other thing would be sound patterns, and this 336 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 1: would be things like rhymes or alliteration, which they also say, 337 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: megan limit possibilities of what types of words could come next. 338 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 1: You know, these offer you some schema of of you know, 339 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: predicting what the rest of the line would be. That 340 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: that's interesting because makes me think of American Pie. It 341 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: also makes me think of Warren's Van's Roland the Headless 342 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: Thompson Gunner, both long songs that I easily remember, but 343 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: both of them are are very narrative songs. The lyrics 344 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 1: tell a story, especially with Roland. You know, there's a beginning, 345 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 1: a middle, and an end to it. There's a climax, 346 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,400 Speaker 1: and they've both got very regular rhythm in the delivery 347 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 1: and uh and a rhyme scheme. And so those things 348 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,239 Speaker 1: can help you remember because they limit the possibilities of 349 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 1: what could be coming up next in the song. If 350 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,719 Speaker 1: you know the say the rhyme sound at the end 351 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 1: of the last line, that helps give you a clue 352 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,439 Speaker 1: as to what the next line is. Whereas you know, 353 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 1: you might have trouble recalling otherwise. Yeah, And the authors 354 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: here note and interesting thing they say when errors occur 355 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: in song recall, they say quote, the changes usually preserve 356 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: the rhyme and the number of syllables in the line. 357 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: So if you were say, singing American Pie, and you 358 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: couldn't remember drove my chevy to the levy, but the 359 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: levy was dry, you might at least be able to say, 360 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: took my chevy from the levy and I looked at 361 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: the sky. You know, it would be something that preserved 362 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: the rhyme and preserved the meter the number of syllables. Yeah, yeah, 363 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: a misheard and misconstrued lyrics are still going to They're 364 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: still going to meet the basic framework that was presented 365 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: in the song. So anyway, in this study, the authors 366 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 1: did a couple of experiments to see if learning verbal 367 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: materials through song actually did provide a memory advantage over 368 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: learning the same verbal materials just recited or spoken. And 369 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: so there were three different conditions as people were trying 370 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: to learn the lyrics of an unfamiliar song, and there're 371 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 1: three different conditions here. So first is the sung sung condition, 372 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 1: and in this condition, the subject would have the song 373 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: sung to them and then they would try to sing 374 00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: it back. Second is the sung spoken condition, and year 375 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: they would have the song sung to them, but then 376 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,360 Speaker 1: they would try to speak the lyrics back and then 377 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: the next condition. I thought this was interesting. They tried 378 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: something called the divided spoken condition, and this is where 379 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 1: they would be presented with the lyrics but not sung, 380 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: though they would be hearing the accompanying background music. And 381 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 1: I guess this was to try this was sort of 382 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: a control to try to rule out Wait a minute, 383 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: could it just be that having the music going on 384 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: while you're learning the words is what contributes to learning 385 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 1: and not the fact that the lyrics themselves are being sung. 386 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: M Now, that's interesting. That makes me think of of 387 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: of songs like the Moody Blues Knights and White Satin, 388 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: which has of course traditional lyrics, but then also has 389 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 1: that spoken words segment, and thinking back on it, like 390 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 1: I can, I can remember a lot of that spoken 391 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 1: words segment from Knights and White Satin, despite the fact 392 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: that it's not like, you know, a piece that I'm 393 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: particularly attached to, but that the words will come. Well. 394 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 1: I guess so in one of the conditions, that's what 395 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: they're going to test here, that does that does the 396 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 1: spoken words section actually have a memory advantage over just 397 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: something being spoken without any music? Um? So in keeping 398 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: with sort of the conventional wisdom and with what a 399 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: number of studies had found before, they predicted that the 400 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: sung sung condition would create the best word recall. So 401 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: when people heard heard a song sung to them and 402 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 1: they tried to sing it back, they would do the best. 403 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: But here's where I thought this got interesting. They found 404 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 1: no in this test. The hypothesis was not confirmed. They 405 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: predicted that the sung sung condition would be best, but 406 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: they write quote. However, fewer words were recalled when singing 407 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: than when speaking. Furthermore, the mode of presentation, whether sung 408 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: or spoken, had no influence on lyric recall, either short 409 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: or long term recall. But anyway, at the end of 410 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,200 Speaker 1: their abstract they right quote altogether. The results into kate 411 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: that the text and the melody of a song have 412 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: separate representations in memory, making singing a dual task to perform, 413 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: at least in the first steps of learning. Interestingly, musical 414 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: training had little impact on performance, suggesting that vocal learning 415 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 1: is a basic and widespread skill. So, first of all, 416 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 1: I just like to say, you know, I like this 417 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: study because it's a great example of a negative finding 418 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: that can still be really interesting. The hypothesis is not confirmed. 419 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: Yet we can still learn a lot from from what's 420 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 1: going on here, and the authors had some interesting thoughts 421 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: in their conclusion section about about what might be happening 422 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 1: with music and verbal memory. So I want to read 423 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 1: a section from their discussion in their conclusion that that 424 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: I thought was interesting here. So they say, Nevertheless, one 425 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: important cue for auditory vocal remembering that is common to 426 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: both music and poems is rhythm. The regular organization of stresses, 427 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,400 Speaker 1: mostly alternating between strong and weak beats or still doables, 428 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 1: is supposed to limit the words that are compatible with it, 429 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: and thereby constrains words selection, at least in English. The 430 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 1: rhythmic similarity between the prosodic accent structure of spoken words 431 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 1: and the metric structure of the melody is striking and 432 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,360 Speaker 1: has long been noted by linguists and music theorists. Moreover, 433 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: Palmer and Kelly in nineteen two have shown that linguistic 434 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: accent structure and musical meter are generally aligned in Western songs. Hence, 435 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 1: rhythmic structure, as determined by the number of syllables or 436 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,159 Speaker 1: notes and the location of primary stress, may serve as 437 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 1: a compatible format for setting words to tones. By this account, 438 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: Recalling a particular stress pattern in a melody or spoken 439 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:47,479 Speaker 1: text activates a metrical grid that constrains the type of 440 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 1: text or melody that is compatible with it. A common 441 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 1: metrical grid is typically used throughout a song. Therefore, metric 442 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: structure provides a means by which lines of an entire 443 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 1: song are organized in a common hierarchical structure, thereby relating 444 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: non adjacent song components and helping memory. So I think 445 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: what they're arguing here is that maybe in these cases 446 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: where we have found that music aids in verbal memory, 447 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 1: it's because the words in the music are set to 448 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: a sort of poetic rhythmic structure, and it's that structure 449 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: that makes things easier to memorize, not so much the 450 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 1: setting it to the melody part. Uh. They also note 451 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: some interesting things like one thing that uh they mentioned 452 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: is that advantages of lyrical recall might actually depend upon language. 453 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: Uh So, just for example, it might be easier to 454 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: recall words with the help of lyrical structures in English 455 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: versus French. That's not clear, that's just a possibility they mentioned. Um. 456 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: But then they also say something that I think might 457 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: tie into something you're going to discuss in a bit. Uh, 458 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 1: so they argue in the end quote. This conclusion raises 459 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: the question of why music is believed to be so 460 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,439 Speaker 1: important for verbal memory, not only in oral tradition, but 461 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 1: also in everyday life. We believe this is due to 462 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,880 Speaker 1: a misunderstanding of the utility of music. Music is not 463 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: at the service of language in songs. Music contributes to 464 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: the creation of a general mood that is shared with others. 465 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 1: And then they quote an author named Booth from that 466 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: teen eighty one who writes that a singer tells people 467 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 1: quote nothing they need to decode or learn. He evokes 468 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,400 Speaker 1: in them ways of seeing life that they already have. 469 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: And then they go on to say that quote. In fact, 470 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: oral transmission of text is rarely word for word or 471 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: verbatim in singing. Althose singers believe that they sing the 472 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 1: text exactly as heard, They never do so. Uh. And 473 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: then side studies by Reuben Reuben famous research into recounting 474 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: of like long oral poems, things like the Iliad and 475 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: the Odyssey, that people supposedly do from memory. But a 476 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 1: lot of these studies find that that actually, while people 477 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 1: think they are performing the same poem or song over 478 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: and over, in fact, they're making major changes to it 479 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,159 Speaker 1: as they do. And in fact, maybe the role of 480 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 1: music is to sort of create the illusion that what 481 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 1: you are recreating is the same thing, rather than making 482 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 1: it the same thing. So the structure is still the same, 483 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,919 Speaker 1: the words are still rhyming. Uh, therefore, surely nothing has changed. 484 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: But there is of course room for stuff to have changed, right, 485 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,679 Speaker 1: So details may change, but something about the fact that 486 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: it is the same song creates the feeling that you 487 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: are recreating the same work, even though the details are 488 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: actually different. So anyway, I thought the study was really interesting, 489 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: though it is older. This is from two thousand seven, 490 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,719 Speaker 1: So I was trying to look through a more recent 491 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: studies on this subject the effects of music on verbal 492 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: memory and recall, and trying to see if I could 493 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,360 Speaker 1: find anything, you know, if any newer conclusions had emerged. 494 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: And it looks to me like the the landscape of 495 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: findings on this is still somewhat mixed, like it is 496 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,959 Speaker 1: not consistent, and that this may just indicate that there 497 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: are different features of different kinds of music and verbal 498 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: encoding tasks that that that provide different results in the end. So, 499 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: for example, I was looking at one study from Frontiers 500 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 1: in Psychology published in by Lehman and Seifert called can 501 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: music foster learning? Effects of different text modalities on learning 502 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: and information retrieval. So they have different ways of having 503 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: people try to learn text through written exposure, through spoken exposure, 504 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: and through sung exposure, and they found that the actually 505 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: was through exposure to written text that people signal recalled 506 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: the most detail in the verbal text. However, they say, 507 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 1: and and this one really surprised me. But at least 508 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: within this study, they say, quote comprehension after learning with 509 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: the sung modality was significantly superior compared to in learning 510 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: with the written learning modality. Comprehension so like comprehension of 511 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: the of the text being presented. So they say that 512 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: reading helps people focus more on details, which may help 513 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: them answer sort of specific recall questions that would come 514 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: down to a single word or detail later on. But 515 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,719 Speaker 1: listening to the verbal content as a song leads to 516 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: higher levels of comprehension of the entire text. So one 517 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: last thing I came across the I found an article 518 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: in the Wall Street Journal from two thousand thirteen by 519 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: Heidie Mitchell called does music aid in Memorization? And this 520 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: was interesting because it just uh, it consulted the opinion 521 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: of a of a leading American psychologist who does research 522 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: on memory, and this psychologist is Henry L. Rodiger the third, 523 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: who is a professor of psychology at the Memory Lab 524 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: at Washington University in St. Louis. And what he's as is, 525 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: there's wide agreement that information set to music is easier 526 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: to remember. Now why would this be, well, Roddiger actually 527 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: uh cites something that the authors of that earlier paper mentioned, 528 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: So he says that music aids in memory because it 529 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: helps in the retrieval process. So of course we know 530 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 1: memory involves not only storage but the act of retrieval. 531 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: And this can be clearly evidenced by the tip of 532 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: the tongue effect. You think about how you can know 533 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 1: the word you want to use, but for some reason 534 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: you can't locate that word in your memory at the moment, 535 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: and then suddenly something clicks and then you have the words. 536 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: It was in there. It was retrievable in your brain, 537 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: but you couldn't put it together. And likewise, you can 538 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: fail to recall a memorized string of words, a memorized sentence, 539 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: until maybe you get the first word in the string 540 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: and then it all comes rushing up out of the 541 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: DP your memory. Uh and so. So Roddeger claims that 542 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: music is helpful at retrieval of verbal information be cause 543 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: it provides structure through things like rhythm and rhyme, like 544 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier that the the other authors 545 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: discussed in their conclusion, And it's this structure, the rhythm 546 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: and the rhyme, that acts as a queue that makes 547 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: it easier to retrieve the stored information of the next line. 548 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: So Roddiger claims that it is the structure, not the melody, 549 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: that aids in the retrieval process. When it is the 550 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: case that it's easier to remember lyrics, he thinks at 551 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: least that it's probably due to the fact that lyrics 552 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: are encoded in these rhythmic structures, things that have meter 553 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: and they have rhyme that make them easier to recall 554 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: than just unstructured strings of text. And you know, I 555 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: can kind of say that it is similarly easier to 556 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: recall lines of poems, even though they're not sung out loud, 557 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: just poems that have uh say, meter and rhyme, than 558 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: it is to recall just lines of unstructured prose from 559 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: stories that I like or or famous speeches I feel like. Um, 560 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: like perhaps at some point I had I was asked 561 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: to memorize the Gettysburg Address or something like that, and 562 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: like that really doesn't stick with me. Some of Macbeth 563 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: sticks with me because there is very much a cadence 564 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 1: in a in a rhythm to to all of that. Uh, 565 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: and also things like a rhyme of the ancient mariner. 566 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: You know. Um, I certainly don't have it all memorized, 567 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: but there's some some bits of it that are stuck 568 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: in my memory. So yeah, I could. I can see 569 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: what they're getting at in this this paper. And then 570 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: that might also explain cases where like, so if you 571 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: take song lyrics and you're just trying to say, do 572 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: people learn song lyrics better if they hear them spoken 573 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: out loud or if they hear them sung? And this 574 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: is on initial exposure. Things might change if you know 575 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: you're you're exposed to these words either spoken or sung, 576 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: day after day for a long time. But on initial exposure, Uh, 577 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: the authors of that study from two thousand seven didn't 578 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: really find a difference, Like you you did not do 579 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: better if you heard them sung. I wonder if that 580 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: could just be as well their song lyrics anyway, So 581 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: even if they're spoken out loud, they would still have 582 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: the same structure. They'd still have the rhythm and the rhyme. Yeah. Yeah, 583 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 1: Like even if you're if you're not hearing the song 584 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: rolland the headless Thompson gunner, there's still Roland was a 585 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: gunner from the Land of the Midnight Sun. You know, 586 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 1: it has it has that cadence, and it has that rhyme. 587 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: Oh and in case in point, I actually got the 588 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: lyrics wrong there, it's Roland was a warrior from the 589 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: Land of the Midnight Sun. But I got the important 590 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: parts right. Well. It sounds like that that's what happens 591 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: with songs, right Like we keep the structure and you 592 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: get things about the gist. But but yeah, the details 593 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: seemed us shift all over the place anyway, though. I Mean, 594 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: it seems to me like this is the kind of 595 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: thing that we could probably return to in the future, 596 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: because I bet that there is still a lot more 597 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 1: to learn about the relationship between uh, verbal memory and music. 598 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: It seems that the studies we've looked at here established 599 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: some things, but it's still it still seems to be 600 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: a messy picture where sometimes music does aid in memory 601 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: and sometimes it doesn't, and figuring out exactly what what 602 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: all the variables are there would probably continue to be interesting. Yeah, 603 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 1: So I'd like to come back to um to some 604 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 1: of the ideas we're talking about earlier, and then some 605 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 1: of the ideas that came up in uh in your 606 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,439 Speaker 1: discussion of of the work with lyrics and and that 607 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,320 Speaker 1: concerns sort of this broader picture of of memory and music. 608 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 1: Because memories involving music, they of course, can be highly individual. 609 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 1: We've already shared a few different examples of that. We 610 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 1: we also have any number of examples where a particular 611 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: track or particular work of music becomes linked to a 612 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:46,720 Speaker 1: particular idea of a particular book, a particular movie, a memory, 613 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: a hope, or a dream, sometimes in a good way, 614 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 1: sometimes in a in a bad way, or perhaps a 615 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: slightly annoying way. Perhaps you've had a had a co 616 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: worker with a with a particular ring tone that that 617 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: that kind of jabbed at you, and and now that 618 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: song is forever linked with just random outbursts from this 619 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: person's phone. There there is a David Bowie song where 620 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: I can no longer hear the opening guitar riff without 621 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 1: thinking that the next thing is is going to be 622 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 1: like hearing a voice saying, hey, what's up? Uh. But anyway, 623 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: the direction I wanted to go in though at this 624 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: point of the episode is to is to get into 625 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 1: the the idea of the connection between music and and 626 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:32,719 Speaker 1: not only individual memory, but collective memory. Okay, Now you're 627 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,800 Speaker 1: probably wondering, if some of you may be wanting, okay, 628 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:39,359 Speaker 1: what is collective memory to tell us or or remind us? Well? Uh. 629 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:44,919 Speaker 1: French philosopher and sociologist Maurice Hubbox born eighteen seventy seven 630 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:49,279 Speaker 1: died developed the concept of collective memory and has been 631 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: explored by various other thinkers since then. The basic idea 632 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: is that while individuals remember things, groups of people also 633 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:01,320 Speaker 1: remember things together. Now, I was also reading a paper 634 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 1: titled Collective Memory What is It? By Getty and Elam 635 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 1: from volume of History and Memory, And here the authors 636 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: make a connection between the modern concept of collective memory 637 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: and you know, much older traditions of myth and legend, 638 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 1: because this is this is arguably how we used to 639 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,800 Speaker 1: understand some of these concepts in terms of national myths 640 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 1: local legends and so forth, but as well discuss modernity 641 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 1: affects some of the apparent mechanisms and flows involved here 642 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 1: with individual and collective memories of events and uh in histories. Now, 643 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,360 Speaker 1: there are two distinct areas of collective memory. They're small 644 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 1: scale collective memory and this is in small scale groups 645 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 1: among the members of small scale groups. And then there 646 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,360 Speaker 1: are large scale collective memories in large scale groups. And 647 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: this later category is also known as memory boom. Uh. 648 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: There's there's also literature about the connections between the two 649 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 1: because anytime we're talking about these memories like individual memory, 650 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: small all scale collective memory, large scale collective memory. Uh, 651 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: they're not you know, distinct things separated by walls. They 652 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 1: are they influence each other, and so there's there's very 653 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 1: much the individual experience of all of this. But even 654 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: if you have a group of just two people, you 655 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,720 Speaker 1: see this interesting thing emerging. We've talked about this before 656 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:19,840 Speaker 1: on the show, and there are some actually some studies 657 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: about this about how couples, uh, you know, any kind 658 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 1: of to any two people who have kind of like 659 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 1: a long term close relationship, they'll often do this thing 660 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: where they share the task of remembering certain things, and 661 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 1: this can be a point of you know, slight irritation 662 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,800 Speaker 1: at times, like why am I the one that remembers uh, 663 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: you know, Uncle Karen's birthday or or whatever the thing 664 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: might be. And we end up doing this thing where we, uh, 665 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: we allow the other person to be the the the 666 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: remember of that particular fact, and then perhaps we end 667 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 1: up remembering other things, and then you engage in this 668 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,279 Speaker 1: kind of collective remembering of things. Uh. And this is 669 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 1: this is of course one of the great great pleasures 670 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 1: in life. Right. You get together with either you're you're 671 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: talking with a significant other, perhaps as a close friend 672 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 1: or a relative, and what do you do together? You 673 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:14,359 Speaker 1: share stories? But you remember things together. Yeah remember when. Yeah. Though, 674 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,280 Speaker 1: it's great to point out the idea of sharing stories 675 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: as as being crucial to this this collective memorization, because 676 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,880 Speaker 1: that's sort of like it. It puts emphasis on the 677 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: fact that the the retrieval of these memories often in 678 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: itself is a type of performance. It's like a creative 679 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,399 Speaker 1: act in a way. And uh, and I think that's 680 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 1: one reason you ever get in the situation where, uh, 681 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 1: you are together with a group of people and say, 682 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,959 Speaker 1: your spouse says I, Oh, here's you know. They bring 683 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 1: up the concept of a story, but then they want 684 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 1: you to tell it, you know, and so that you 685 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,879 Speaker 1: can kind of something sometimes doesn't quite feel right there 686 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,200 Speaker 1: because it's a story that you could tell, but somehow 687 00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 1: I don't know, like you don't feel like up to 688 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: performing it at that moment. It's not like you can't 689 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 1: remember the details as they're supposed to be told, but 690 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 1: something about being put on the spot is like I 691 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: was not ready to perform. So it's almost like you 692 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: can't remember. But I think a lot of times we 693 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: we kind of stow away the idea that well, this 694 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 1: person either they have the better telling of the story, 695 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:18,759 Speaker 1: they have the beats down, they can tell it in 696 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 1: a funny way. Or sometimes it's more that person's story 697 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 1: to tell, right, like it's it's their experience. So it's 698 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: even maybe you don't feel is right being the bearer 699 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:31,799 Speaker 1: of that story, like like you need to tell it, 700 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 1: Please tell that story. It's such a good one. So 701 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: so basically in all of this, a kind of emergent 702 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 1: memory can emerge from a small group of people or 703 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: a large group of people. Um oh, and of course 704 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,239 Speaker 1: we have to remember we're talking about. When we're talking 705 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: about memory retrieval, we have to recall that the mere 706 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 1: act of retrieving a memory can alter the memory. UH. 707 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,439 Speaker 1: And in fact, the memories that we retrieve the most, 708 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 1: or perhaps the ones we can trust the least, right, um. 709 00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 1: But in either case it's important to drive home. We're 710 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 1: talking about ecological and historical concepts here, and UH it's 711 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,759 Speaker 1: it's a different beast from objective history, but rather a 712 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,800 Speaker 1: view of the past that involves specific views and values 713 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,319 Speaker 1: of a given group, Right, I mean, I think that's 714 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,320 Speaker 1: something that should come through. It's not that humans never 715 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: recall details accurately. Sometimes they do, but broadly, I think 716 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:22,719 Speaker 1: it is better to think about your memory as a 717 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:27,400 Speaker 1: sort of UH, a mythology based on facts about history, 718 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,880 Speaker 1: rather than an objective recording of events. Yes, yes, that 719 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,880 Speaker 1: the link between mythology and UH and even individual memory, 720 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:37,840 Speaker 1: but also collective memory. I think it's strong, and you 721 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 1: can also tie in I think various connections to the 722 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,760 Speaker 1: idea of collective unconscious and the power of various symbols 723 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 1: and tropes. Um. But the basic concept here of collective 724 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,400 Speaker 1: memory sometimes described as social memory, and UH it is 725 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 1: also sometimes criticized for being very monolithic and its approach 726 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,839 Speaker 1: because everyone in a particular group is not actually going 727 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,920 Speaker 1: to have the exact same memory of something, and while 728 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 1: their various memories might contribute to a collective memory, they 729 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 1: are still not going to have the same specific memories 730 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: of the event. Also very true of mythology. I mean, 731 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 1: there's rarely just one version of a myth, right, you know, right, right, 732 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,320 Speaker 1: and get all these different variations on where did Medusa 733 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 1: come from or whatever? But then often you will have 734 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: somebody come along and attempt to codify it and say, 735 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,359 Speaker 1: this is the version that we are adhering to. And 736 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,360 Speaker 1: sometimes this is merely and sometimes it's accidental, like a 737 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,719 Speaker 1: great storyteller comes along and retells the story and now 738 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 1: this is the one. Other times, you know, there there 739 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:39,360 Speaker 1: are potentially nefarious attitudes involved, you know, particularly if you 740 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,759 Speaker 1: have someone who is looking to to lead people or 741 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,640 Speaker 1: manipulate people, and in doing so they might say, well, 742 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,839 Speaker 1: this this is our collective memory. Surely you remember it 743 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 1: this way. This is the way that that I would 744 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: like for you to think of it. But you know, 745 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:54,800 Speaker 1: we might think of this. We might take this concept 746 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:56,720 Speaker 1: and apply it to something like let's say the nineties 747 00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:01,240 Speaker 1: sixties in America. Uh, there are and we're individual memories 748 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: of this time period. But there also are and we're 749 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 1: collective memories of that decade. And depending on who you 750 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,879 Speaker 1: were and where you were, there was likely a fair 751 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,960 Speaker 1: amount of drift concerning the exact flavor of that time period. 752 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,280 Speaker 1: Was it a time of liberation, a time of struggle, 753 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,879 Speaker 1: a time of great danger, a time of laughable fashions? Uh? 754 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 1: You know, I'm simplifying here, but hopefully you get the idea. 755 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,960 Speaker 1: And on top of that, media plays a role in 756 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 1: all of this as well, again, as do certain manipulations 757 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 1: of recollections of tough times by people who have a 758 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:38,160 Speaker 1: particular agenda in all of it. And of course music 759 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,319 Speaker 1: plays a part as well. And in this I come 760 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 1: to the paper that I was reading about all of this, 761 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:47,680 Speaker 1: um titled record and Hold Popular Music between personal and 762 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,440 Speaker 1: collective memory. I wonder if that might have been an 763 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,359 Speaker 1: illusion or a play on sample and hold from Neil Young. 764 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:58,759 Speaker 1: I don't know, but it's by the the researcher yo 765 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:02,839 Speaker 1: Say Van Dunk, published in Critical Studies and Media Communication 766 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 1: from two thousand six. Van Donk writes that quote people 767 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 1: nourish emotional and tangible connections to songs before entrusting them 768 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:15,760 Speaker 1: to their personal, mental, and material reservoirs. But they also 769 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,280 Speaker 1: need to share musical preferences with others before songs become 770 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,839 Speaker 1: part of a collective repertoire that in turn provides new 771 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 1: resources for personal engagement with recorded music. So her main 772 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,880 Speaker 1: contention here is that that musical memories emerge and become 773 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:38,319 Speaker 1: codified at the intersection of personal memory, collective memory, and identity. Uh, 774 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,400 Speaker 1: you know, which leads to the question how do personal 775 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,800 Speaker 1: and collective memories intermingle here? And I think this is 776 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 1: really quite interesting to think about. For for for instance, think 777 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,920 Speaker 1: back to a song that came out when let's say 778 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,840 Speaker 1: you were in high school or perhaps college, or perhaps 779 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,319 Speaker 1: some other justformative time in your life, you know, think 780 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,719 Speaker 1: about a time when a lot of new music was 781 00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:01,239 Speaker 1: entering your life and your life was changing and so forth. So, 782 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 1: first of all, how did you think about the song then, 783 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:06,719 Speaker 1: and how do you think about it now? How did 784 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,200 Speaker 1: your group, small or large think about the song, How 785 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,440 Speaker 1: have you come to reflect on it as a product 786 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,880 Speaker 1: of that time period? And how is the song packaged 787 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:19,680 Speaker 1: and sold to you at the time figuratively and perhaps literally, 788 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,719 Speaker 1: and then how has the media been packaged or repackaged 789 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,280 Speaker 1: since then? You know, I recall a kind of youthful 790 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:27,600 Speaker 1: arrogance about my taste in music when I was in 791 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:29,439 Speaker 1: high school, and a lot of the stuff I liked, 792 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,960 Speaker 1: I'm sure I would now regard as quite horrible. Um, 793 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: but I but I remember thinking at the time like, oh, 794 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:40,360 Speaker 1: finally music is good, you know about about like the 795 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:42,279 Speaker 1: kind of music that I liked then. I mean, I 796 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:44,759 Speaker 1: guess I grew out of that fairly quickly, but like 797 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,400 Speaker 1: there was a kind of a feeling of like, Okay, 798 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:50,839 Speaker 1: you know this new this new type of metal that 799 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 1: I'm into now, which in my case was probably like 800 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 1: early two thousands metals, so you know, like real good stuff. Uh. 801 00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,719 Speaker 1: I was like, finally, you know, we've we reached sort 802 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,080 Speaker 1: of the apex of music. This is what it's all 803 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,560 Speaker 1: been building up to. This is the new frontier here. 804 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,719 Speaker 1: There's a kind of pity for like previous generations who 805 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:10,680 Speaker 1: didn't have that, you know, they didn't really know what 806 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:15,360 Speaker 1: music was about because there wasn't disturbed yet. Yeah, it 807 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,360 Speaker 1: reminds me. I think it was a no fielding line 808 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,600 Speaker 1: about how um. Uh, that's saying something about like adam 809 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,880 Speaker 1: ant having been having invented music and someone was like 810 00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:27,000 Speaker 1: what about classical music? And he was like, well, it 811 00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,440 Speaker 1: was just that was just warming up, you know, like 812 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,240 Speaker 1: like well, whatever came before the music that was pivotal 813 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,120 Speaker 1: for you, Like that was just the precursor, the necessary 814 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:40,520 Speaker 1: precursor to the real music that was that was actually speaking, 815 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:43,560 Speaker 1: which is is ridiculous, but also I think makes a 816 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:45,480 Speaker 1: lot of sense as we as we move on through 817 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:48,560 Speaker 1: all of this. Uh so, um, you know, there's a 818 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,879 Speaker 1: lot to consider when thinking about it. But uh and 819 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 1: in those questions here that I asked, the only scratched 820 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:57,399 Speaker 1: the surface. But as um As van Deynk points out, 821 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,520 Speaker 1: Number one, remembering as an active process of a mind 822 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:05,040 Speaker 1: in the world. So we are stirred to remember things 823 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 1: by a multitude of stimuli. So it's you know, it's 824 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,359 Speaker 1: you're not just a black box of memory. There's all 825 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:14,319 Speaker 1: this additional stuff coming in stirring memories, um, you know, 826 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,000 Speaker 1: and sometimes like stirring them up to into a into 827 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,200 Speaker 1: a storm, into a uh, you know, a new obsession 828 00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,640 Speaker 1: or a re obsession. The second point is that that 829 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:27,440 Speaker 1: music is enabled through instruments and technology and quote enabling 830 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:31,880 Speaker 1: apparatus becomes part of the recollecting experience. So this is 831 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,279 Speaker 1: I think this is perhaps worth remembering as we occasionally 832 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:38,080 Speaker 1: throw out old physical albums and playing devices like all 833 00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,560 Speaker 1: of that stuff. And I'm not saying, hey, keep all 834 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,480 Speaker 1: of your your garbage, but but it's worth remembering that, Yeah, 835 00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:46,560 Speaker 1: that that physical album is still a part of the 836 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,960 Speaker 1: experience of that album. And uh and uh, I guess 837 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,520 Speaker 1: some of us may be cling onto that idea more 838 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:56,000 Speaker 1: than others. Uh, pieces of my soul will always live 839 00:46:56,080 --> 00:47:01,239 Speaker 1: on unlabeled, burned c d s A right that. The 840 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,560 Speaker 1: next point that Vandang makes is that music emerges from 841 00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:09,759 Speaker 1: a socio technological context and then also quote, remembrance is 842 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,399 Speaker 1: always embedded, so the social context within which we live 843 00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,880 Speaker 1: stimulate memories of the past. For an example of this, 844 00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:21,080 Speaker 1: she points to internet forums and and radio programs is 845 00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:25,040 Speaker 1: things that don't merely stimulate such musical memories but also 846 00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:29,080 Speaker 1: helped construct collective memory. Oh yeah, I mean, so music 847 00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,960 Speaker 1: is powerfully evocative, but to a great extent, we determine 848 00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,959 Speaker 1: what it evokes by talking about it with each other. Yeah, yeah, 849 00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:38,799 Speaker 1: there's I mean, there's because there's what the music means 850 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,640 Speaker 1: to me. It's what the music means to us, you know, again, 851 00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,239 Speaker 1: the collective memory of of what this song is or 852 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,719 Speaker 1: what it was, what it meant, you know, especially when 853 00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,080 Speaker 1: songs become anthems, right when they become things that are 854 00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:56,360 Speaker 1: attached to movements, to generations, or just a particular scenes 855 00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,880 Speaker 1: and times. Now, I mentioned high school and college for 856 00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:00,920 Speaker 1: a reason here. These are period of time, but not 857 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,080 Speaker 1: not the only periods of time during which we often 858 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,600 Speaker 1: build out our musical taste and in doing so, construct 859 00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,120 Speaker 1: our own identity. And it's kind of crazy to think 860 00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:11,880 Speaker 1: about that, you know. These are these are largely sonic 861 00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:16,399 Speaker 1: and linguistic chunks of technologically constructed media that are used 862 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,640 Speaker 1: to build out the cultural self. So I'm I'm taking 863 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,680 Speaker 1: this building block, you know, dripping in the cultural honey 864 00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,440 Speaker 1: of the hive from which I have, I have yanked it, 865 00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:29,440 Speaker 1: and now I'm I'm putting it inside myself. I'm implanting 866 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,560 Speaker 1: it in my body, altering the shape in the form 867 00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,480 Speaker 1: of my own being. And so the music becomes me 868 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,400 Speaker 1: and I become that music totally. Now she she points 869 00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,080 Speaker 1: out that exactly how music gets stuck in our memories 870 00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,000 Speaker 1: is kind of hard to nail down because different networks 871 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,560 Speaker 1: and functions of the brain are involved in music remembrance. 872 00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:52,520 Speaker 1: There's cognitive, there's a there is a motive, there's a 873 00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:57,400 Speaker 1: a somato sensory. She cites some cognitive scholar Patrick Comb 874 00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:01,080 Speaker 1: Hogan who says, quote, the tendency of working memory to 875 00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:05,960 Speaker 1: cyclic repetition, combined with the exaggerated accessibility of a simple 876 00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:09,839 Speaker 1: and frequently repeated tune, gives rise to a situation in 877 00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,760 Speaker 1: which the song is likely to cycle repeatedly through working memory. 878 00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:17,000 Speaker 1: And this touches on some of what we're talking about already, sure, 879 00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:20,560 Speaker 1: on the basis that every time you recite a memory, 880 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,280 Speaker 1: you make that memory easier to access in the future. 881 00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:27,000 Speaker 1: Though not necessarily accurately, but you at least make it 882 00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:30,040 Speaker 1: easier to access in the future. And songs, by their 883 00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:34,359 Speaker 1: very nature, especially sort of catchy songs with easily repeatable 884 00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:38,640 Speaker 1: melodies and and and lines, um, really are easy to 885 00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:41,560 Speaker 1: recite in the heads, so you sort of like you 886 00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:46,040 Speaker 1: implant them for very powerful ease of retrieval in the future. Yeah, 887 00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:50,120 Speaker 1: and and when you start talking about repetition in these songs, um, 888 00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:52,839 Speaker 1: one of the things that the Van Bank points out 889 00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:57,160 Speaker 1: is that technology aids in it immensely. Um, because the 890 00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:00,400 Speaker 1: the advent of recorded music technology allowed us to engage 891 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:04,800 Speaker 1: in true repetition and to expose ourselves um cyclically to 892 00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:09,000 Speaker 1: particular songs, both privately and collectively. UM. And I think 893 00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:12,279 Speaker 1: we can all probably think of examples of this where 894 00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:15,319 Speaker 1: we you know, we hit on that one song and 895 00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:17,160 Speaker 1: nothing but that song is going to do it do 896 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:18,600 Speaker 1: it for us right now? So what do we do? 897 00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,279 Speaker 1: We put that baby on repeat. You'll listen to it, like, 898 00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:25,200 Speaker 1: you know, five, six, ten times in a row even uh, 899 00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:29,520 Speaker 1: just continuing to get that hit. And UM, I want 900 00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,560 Speaker 1: I wonder like, Yeah, in the old days, I guess 901 00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:34,480 Speaker 1: if you had a song in your head and you're 902 00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:36,600 Speaker 1: in your heart, you could just continually sing it to 903 00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:40,240 Speaker 1: yourself as you just went about your day. Um. But 904 00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:43,480 Speaker 1: but without recorded media, you have the chance to change 905 00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,120 Speaker 1: it in the process of doing that. That's right, That's right. 906 00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:48,560 Speaker 1: You could change it a little bit each time, even uh, 907 00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:51,320 Speaker 1: you know, come up with your own lyrics. I guess 908 00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:54,359 Speaker 1: and U and I guess you probably saw that of merge, 909 00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,640 Speaker 1: especially with like work songs right where it's like people 910 00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:01,200 Speaker 1: working collectively collectively sharing in a song and then perhaps 911 00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:03,239 Speaker 1: contributing to it and building upon it as they went. 912 00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,279 Speaker 1: But but it makes me think of these various like 913 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:11,040 Speaker 1: especially like medieval style and fantasy setting, um shows where 914 00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,040 Speaker 1: you'll have like a pub scene and there's a performer, 915 00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:16,600 Speaker 1: there's a bard singing a song, and usually the bard 916 00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,200 Speaker 1: will sing the song once. But in reality, would you 917 00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,160 Speaker 1: have a situation where they're like, yeah, we love that, 918 00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:24,239 Speaker 1: let's let's just keep doing it. No, that song over 919 00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:26,920 Speaker 1: and over again? Uh, I don't know. I don't know 920 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:28,920 Speaker 1: what the answer is. If you ever been to a 921 00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:32,279 Speaker 1: concert where the musician played the same song twice? Oh 922 00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:36,879 Speaker 1: I don't. I have know that that occurs occasionally if yeah, 923 00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:42,759 Speaker 1: if the audience demands it all right, Um, so we 924 00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,040 Speaker 1: don't remember all the songs we hear, but we we 925 00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:47,520 Speaker 1: do remember a lot of songs, especially if we can 926 00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:51,680 Speaker 1: pair it up with a specific emotional, physical response, even 927 00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,160 Speaker 1: stuff as simple as well, this song pumps me up, 928 00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:56,160 Speaker 1: you know, And I think we can all think of 929 00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:58,200 Speaker 1: examples of that. Right. Maybe it's it's not even the 930 00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:01,239 Speaker 1: song that you like really connect with in a lot 931 00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:03,799 Speaker 1: of meaningful ways, but it gets your blood pumping and 932 00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:07,200 Speaker 1: therefore it's easy to remember. But this alone can't account 933 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:09,759 Speaker 1: for the stickiness of music and memory. Uh S Van 934 00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:15,120 Speaker 1: Dank also points to two complimentary theories. There's the neurocognitive theory, 935 00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:18,840 Speaker 1: and this is the feeling associated with the song. Uh 936 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:24,279 Speaker 1: is inscribed in our in our biographical meaning, and recalling 937 00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:28,719 Speaker 1: them causes a flood of emotion and time, event relationship specifics. 938 00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:33,600 Speaker 1: And then there's the cultural semiotic theory. The musical sign 939 00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,040 Speaker 1: is not the key thing, but rather the emotions, feeling, 940 00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:40,279 Speaker 1: and experiences attached to hearing a particular song. So the 941 00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:42,960 Speaker 1: comparison that has been made here is that a tree 942 00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,760 Speaker 1: is falling in a forest. The forest is the song, 943 00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:51,799 Speaker 1: and the waves emanating from the falling tree are the emotions. Okay, 944 00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:54,920 Speaker 1: I don't know if that clarifies anything for anybody, but 945 00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,959 Speaker 1: um but but but hopefully what these two theories both 946 00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:01,919 Speaker 1: kind of work at is that yeah, there's the song, 947 00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:05,280 Speaker 1: there's the lyrics, but then they are all of these um, 948 00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:08,279 Speaker 1: you know, biographical elements, and it's the and and some 949 00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:10,480 Speaker 1: of this is perhaps make them off as an overstatement 950 00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:12,600 Speaker 1: of the obvious. You know, like that time when you 951 00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:15,200 Speaker 1: heard this song that time when you listen to this 952 00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:18,120 Speaker 1: song six six times in a row, like, all of 953 00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,320 Speaker 1: that becomes encoded in the memory of the thing and 954 00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:23,000 Speaker 1: the nostalgia of the thing. Right. Well, another way to 955 00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:25,120 Speaker 1: think about it is that there is no way to 956 00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:29,160 Speaker 1: appreciate a song on its own terms. There actually is 957 00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,600 Speaker 1: no you know, there is no way to just think 958 00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:35,319 Speaker 1: about a song. You're always thinking about it with some 959 00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:38,880 Speaker 1: kind of biographical and cultural framing. So you will have, 960 00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:43,080 Speaker 1: you know, independent personal emotions, feelings and biographical details that 961 00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:46,480 Speaker 1: will become associated with that song, and you will probably 962 00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:49,439 Speaker 1: keep reproducing in memory every time you hear the song 963 00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,560 Speaker 1: or sing the song. But then there will also possibly 964 00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:55,399 Speaker 1: be these broader sort of cultural associations. But it it 965 00:53:55,440 --> 00:54:00,160 Speaker 1: fits into a time, a social context, to political context, 966 00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:05,960 Speaker 1: and it means something to you within that context. Yeah. Absolutely. Now, 967 00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,960 Speaker 1: as as an example of of some of this um 968 00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:12,759 Speaker 1: in her paper, Vannk goes into it looks at an 969 00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:16,800 Speaker 1: example from a Dutch pop music survey. It's called the 970 00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:19,760 Speaker 1: Dutch Top two thousand, and this is a radio event, 971 00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:22,960 Speaker 1: and she argues that the Dutch Top two thousand is 972 00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:28,080 Speaker 1: a great example of how quote unquote mediated memories are 973 00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:31,520 Speaker 1: shaped at the intersections of personal and collective memories. So 974 00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:36,440 Speaker 1: this was a national radio event with generated user responses 975 00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:41,400 Speaker 1: in narrative form like people uh, people sharing their connection 976 00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:43,960 Speaker 1: with a particular song, what it means to them uh, 977 00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:46,920 Speaker 1: a narrative form for those memories, and since it's a 978 00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:50,400 Speaker 1: major media event, it also helps to shape cultural memories 979 00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:54,160 Speaker 1: through the sharing of the the individual connection to the 980 00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:56,960 Speaker 1: song uh. So. So I found that that interest is 981 00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:00,160 Speaker 1: trying to think, do we are there examples of out 982 00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:03,719 Speaker 1: from you know, from my my own experience with music 983 00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:05,279 Speaker 1: or I don't know if you have experiences with this, 984 00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:08,560 Speaker 1: because oftentimes it's you know, music is presented to you 985 00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:11,520 Speaker 1: and it's presented to you by a by a DJ 986 00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:14,520 Speaker 1: or or a d J if you were watching uh 987 00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,879 Speaker 1: MTV back in the day, and maybe they might add 988 00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:20,280 Speaker 1: some sort of personal experience or some sort of priming 989 00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:24,000 Speaker 1: as to why this song is important, but maybe not. UM. 990 00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,759 Speaker 1: I guess sometimes back in the old days, maybe they 991 00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:30,160 Speaker 1: do this still. People would have requests on the radio 992 00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:32,080 Speaker 1: and would like, you know, say this song goes out 993 00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:34,239 Speaker 1: to so and so. I could see that being a 994 00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:36,160 Speaker 1: form of this. So I hope this service as just 995 00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:38,600 Speaker 1: kind of a you know, introduction to some of these ideas. Um, 996 00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:41,440 Speaker 1: the topic of music and collective memory plays into a 997 00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:46,000 Speaker 1: number of interesting looking papers and books even that perhaps 998 00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:47,840 Speaker 1: beyond the scope of this episode, but I thought I 999 00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:49,759 Speaker 1: might mention a couple of them in passing in case 1000 00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:53,080 Speaker 1: people wanted to explore further. Uh. There's there's music Memory 1001 00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:57,480 Speaker 1: and Nostalgia, Collective Memories of Cultural Revolution songs and contemporary China. 1002 00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:00,120 Speaker 1: This one was by Bryant came out into that and 1003 00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:04,080 Speaker 1: five and China Review. And there is also a book 1004 00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:08,920 Speaker 1: edited by edited by Um, bos Quasca and bomb Gardner 1005 00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:13,080 Speaker 1: titled Music, Collective Memory, Trauma and Nostalgia and European Cinema 1006 00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:15,680 Speaker 1: after the Second World War. And I was looking at 1007 00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:17,839 Speaker 1: that one a little bit, and it Uh, this, this 1008 00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:22,120 Speaker 1: is something that that is worth noting, like the way 1009 00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:26,920 Speaker 1: that we strongly forge these connections between music and cinema. Uh. 1010 00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:29,200 Speaker 1: And and it's and something and and and just sort 1011 00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:31,839 Speaker 1: of visual media in general. And sometimes it can kind 1012 00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:35,600 Speaker 1: of co opt the original meaning of a song, uh, 1013 00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:39,279 Speaker 1: and that song becomes forever associated with with, say a 1014 00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:43,520 Speaker 1: particular period of time or or a conflict, et cetera. 1015 00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:46,479 Speaker 1: All Right, well, we're gonna we're gonna go and close 1016 00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:48,759 Speaker 1: things out here, but obviously we'd love to hear from 1017 00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:51,360 Speaker 1: everybody out there, because again, everybody has some sort of 1018 00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:53,719 Speaker 1: connection to to what we've been talking about here, and 1019 00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,640 Speaker 1: you're gonna have specific examples that might be worth sharing 1020 00:56:57,200 --> 00:56:59,120 Speaker 1: from your own life and your own your your own 1021 00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:02,239 Speaker 1: musical history. I also want to throw in I did 1022 00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:04,839 Speaker 1: look it up real quick, the Dynasty's song that I'm 1023 00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:08,600 Speaker 1: thinking about, um the Way to Remember the Dynasties of China. 1024 00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:12,360 Speaker 1: It's sung to the tune of Freda Shaka. So you 1025 00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:14,560 Speaker 1: can find examples of that online if you want. I 1026 00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:17,680 Speaker 1: am I'm not going to sing it now. In the meantime, 1027 00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:19,840 Speaker 1: if you like to check out other episodes of Stuff 1028 00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:21,840 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind, you can find us in the 1029 00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:24,600 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast feed, available wherever you 1030 00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:27,800 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. We have core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. 1031 00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:31,160 Speaker 1: We have listener Mail on Monday's Artifact on Wednesdays as 1032 00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:33,360 Speaker 1: a short form episode, and on Friday's We Do Weird 1033 00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:36,360 Speaker 1: How Cinema. That's our time to set most serious matters 1034 00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:38,800 Speaker 1: aside and just focus in on a weird film. Huge 1035 00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:42,400 Speaker 1: thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 1036 00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:44,240 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 1037 00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:46,720 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 1038 00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:48,600 Speaker 1: a topic for the future, just to say hello, you 1039 00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:51,280 Speaker 1: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your 1040 00:57:51,320 --> 00:58:01,680 Speaker 1: Mind dot com. 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