Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.
Speaker 2: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 1: And when I find my ball in a brid egg
Speaker 1: Friday egg and dreaded Frida egg, Frida egg, Frida egg
Speaker 1: Brian Egg Frida egg.
Speaker 3: Bride egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off.
Speaker 4: Of the course.
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast. My name
Speaker 1: is Garrett Morrison. I am here today with Andy Johnson
Speaker 1: Andy House, San Francisco.
Speaker 2: Revealing my location.
Speaker 3: It's it's delightful to be out of winter, and uh,
Speaker 3: it's cool. It's just nice to be out seeing some
Speaker 3: some golf courses and seeing some stuff and being somewhere
Speaker 3: where you can do that and not be really cold.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, well it looks lovely. In any case, We
Speaker 1: are here today to talk about a West coast location.
Speaker 2: Pacific Northwest locations shared Pacific Northwest location.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, is San Francisco in the Pacific Northwest.
Speaker 2: Some can say it? Consider it?
Speaker 3: Who would say that, I don't know. Okay, it's somebody,
Speaker 3: you know. Intelligent people would consider it.
Speaker 1: So okay.
Speaker 3: Now Midwesterns, naive Middlewesterns would consider it.
Speaker 1: Anything that's not the Southwest or southern California is the
Speaker 1: Pacific Northwest.
Speaker 2: I think yeah, I think that's that's true.
Speaker 3: It's if you have redwood trees, you're the Pacific Northwest
Speaker 3: in my book.
Speaker 1: So we are talking about Bandon Dunes obviously, that that
Speaker 1: little known resort on the Oregon coast, and today is
Speaker 1: the third of our bandoned deep dives. We've done Sheep
Speaker 1: Ranch and the last one we did was Old MacDonald
Speaker 1: and today we're going to dig into Bandon Trails, which
Speaker 1: was the third course that was built at the resort.
Speaker 1: You know, we're doing these in reverse order, and so
Speaker 1: that's why we're at Bandon Trails now. Designed by Bill
Speaker 1: Corr and Ben Crenshaw. It was built in two thousand
Speaker 1: and three two thousand and four, opened in two thousand
Speaker 1: and five. Some of the associates on this project included
Speaker 1: Tony Russell, Jim Craig, David Zincnd, Jeff Bradley, kind of
Speaker 1: a murderer's row of shapers and great architects in their
Speaker 1: own right at this point, just to kind of situate
Speaker 1: people historically with the Bandon Dunees project and where Bandon
Speaker 1: Trails was in that Bandon Dunes had opened in nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety nine and had been a sensation. Pacific Dunes opened
Speaker 1: in two thousand and one. I think it was right,
Speaker 1: and that too was a sensation, right immediate entry into
Speaker 1: you know, the top twenty in the world, and Bandon
Speaker 1: Dunes had become a really really big deal. You know,
Speaker 1: if you can imagine when Banded Dunes had one course,
Speaker 1: it was, although it was an incredible course and everybody
Speaker 1: knew about it, it was just one course way out
Speaker 1: in the middle of nowhere.
Speaker 3: It was like going and finding the great up and
Speaker 3: coming band at a local dive bar, that you know.
Speaker 3: And then when Pacific Dunes is when they started playing
Speaker 3: at like relatively known locations and on a tour in cities.
Speaker 3: And then I think, you know, Pacific Trails or Banded Trails, Jesus,
Speaker 3: Pacific Trails Abandoned Trails is where you know, kind of
Speaker 3: probably it launched the resort into you know, you know,
Speaker 3: in the subsequent courses, really launched the resort into a
Speaker 3: whole new stratosphere of superstardom.
Speaker 1: That's when they started playing arenas.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that is the context in which Banded Trails
Speaker 1: came about. And I think there was a lot of
Speaker 1: pressure on it because Banded Dunes and Pacific Dunes had
Speaker 1: been so well received. Both were on the ocean, in
Speaker 1: these spectacular environments with great cliff top holes and everything
Speaker 1: like that, and people knew very early on that Bandon
Speaker 1: Trails would be a different kind of property. It wasn't
Speaker 1: going to be on the cliffs, it was going to
Speaker 1: be inland. There were parts of it that were even
Speaker 1: going to be in the forest, and so there was
Speaker 1: quite a bit of pressure on corn Crenshaw to sort
Speaker 1: of live up to what band In Dunes and Pacific
Speaker 1: Dunes had been. Now, Okay, so Bandon Trails was different
Speaker 1: in a couple of ways. One way, obviously, is that
Speaker 1: property that I talked about. Another is that Bill kre
Speaker 1: and Ben Crenshaw were very well established at this time
Speaker 1: in their career in a way that Tom Doak and
Speaker 1: especially David Kidd were not when they built the first
Speaker 1: two courses. So by this point corn Crenshaw had built
Speaker 1: Kapalua sand Hills Friar's Head Old Sandwich just before Bandon Trails,
Speaker 1: and so you know, they were already incredibly well regarded architects,
Speaker 1: maybe the best regarded architects in the world of golf,
Speaker 1: and here they come to do trails.
Speaker 3: I think it's important to note here that this is
Speaker 3: the first time that they worked with Mike Kaiser, Yeah,
Speaker 3: which we then see, you know, they they were the
Speaker 3: first course at Sand Valley, they were you know, they
Speaker 3: did Cabot Cliffs and who knows what you know, they
Speaker 3: might do in the future with with the Kaisers. But
Speaker 3: you know, the this started the Core Crenshaw relationship there,
Speaker 3: which we see more and more of. And obviously they
Speaker 3: continue to work with Tom Doak and David Kidd, but
Speaker 3: this is a significant point in terms of them working
Speaker 3: with the Kaisers and building their most you know, publicly
Speaker 3: popular courses you know, generally come from these big resorts,
Speaker 3: and the Kaiser resorts are some of the most popular
Speaker 3: golf destinations. So this is you know, Coren Crenshaw, you
Speaker 3: know sand Hills and Friars Head or of courses that
Speaker 3: nobody's going to see. You know, this is this is
Speaker 3: a golf course that people could go see built by
Speaker 3: Ben Ben Creunschhaw and Bill core.
Speaker 1: And this is really an incredible error era for their
Speaker 1: architecture because I think most people would agree that Friar's
Speaker 1: Head and Old Sandwich are both among their best courses,
Speaker 1: and that that is the time in their career when
Speaker 1: they came to band In and built their first Kaiser
Speaker 1: golf course, and then since then at Bandon you mentioned
Speaker 1: some of the other courses that they've built at Kaiser
Speaker 1: associated properties. They did band and Preserve and then they
Speaker 1: did Sheep Ranch and so now at the Bandon Dunes Resort,
Speaker 1: kren Crenshaw are the dominant architects. You know, Tom dok
Speaker 1: has two eighteen whole courses there too, But you know,
Speaker 1: Kaiser obviously liked what he saw from the trails project.
Speaker 2: As of now three of the six courses.
Speaker 1: All right. So that's all to say that there was
Speaker 1: quite a bit of excitement about this project and some
Speaker 1: trepidation on the part of Mike Kaiser and probably on
Speaker 1: the part of kren Crenshaw as well, that you know,
Speaker 1: this wouldn't work out as well. It wasn't. It wasn't
Speaker 1: quite as splashy and exciting seeming as the first two
Speaker 1: Bandon Dune's courses were, where you had up and coming
Speaker 1: architects and you had these incredible sort of mind blowing
Speaker 1: properties right by the sea. You know, where is this
Speaker 1: new course that's kind of in this forest land area,
Speaker 1: how is that going to fit into this resort? And
Speaker 1: so recently you talked to Bill Krr And in fact,
Speaker 1: this episode just came out a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 1: It came out on February first, so this is not
Speaker 1: that long after it. But you talked to Bill Corr
Speaker 1: about Bandon Trails and he told a great story about
Speaker 1: essentially how the concept of the course design came about,
Speaker 1: how they worked out how to tie together the property
Speaker 1: and some of the decisions that went into that. And
Speaker 1: we thought we would replay that clip here. Now, if
Speaker 1: this is really fresh in your memory, then it's about
Speaker 1: nine minutes and thirty seconds long, So just skip ahead
Speaker 1: if you want. But even if you've listened to this once,
Speaker 1: I think it's really worth listening to again because to
Speaker 1: me it's just so interesting.
Speaker 2: The whole thing on Banded Trails was really illuminating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, very much. So, Okay, so here's that.
Speaker 2: Clip Bandon Trails.
Speaker 3: I'm quite smitten about that place, and you know, I
Speaker 3: think it's at the resort. It's got its cult following
Speaker 3: there among a lot of golf courses that are right
Speaker 3: on the ocean, and I would love to hear a
Speaker 3: little bit about the constructing the golf course and connecting
Speaker 3: those very distinct different areas of the course, the different ecosystems, if.
Speaker 2: You would say, you could say.
Speaker 3: The ocean, the dunescape ocean holes with the meadow holes,
Speaker 3: with the forest holes, and kind of how you guys
Speaker 3: creatively weave that journey together.
Speaker 4: Well, Andy, it was Bandon Trails began when Mike Kaiser called,
Speaker 4: and I remember quite well the conversation telephone conversation. He said, Bill,
Speaker 4: I'm thinking about doing a third golf course Abandon Dunes.
Speaker 4: He said, it will not be on the ocean, so
Speaker 4: you and Ben may not be interested, he said, but
Speaker 4: I would just like to have the conversation to see
Speaker 4: if you if you might be, and if you are,
Speaker 4: would you come and take a look at the site.
Speaker 4: And I remember then, Andy, I mean just said Mike, yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 4: we would love to come sit. I've seen Bandon Dune's,
Speaker 4: I've seen Pacific Dunes. It's just fantastic. We'd love to
Speaker 4: do that. And it's not like the site has to
Speaker 4: be on the ocean. It's not like we have to say, oh,
Speaker 4: we've got to have the best site. If we can
Speaker 4: do something that's that you and we and hopefully others
Speaker 4: will thank complimentary to the whole goth experience there, then
Speaker 4: let's take a look at it. He said, Okay, come on,
Speaker 4: let's go. And so went out and did look at
Speaker 4: the site at that particular time, Andy, Mike and Howard McKee,
Speaker 4: you know McKee's pub. Howard McKee who's passed on, but
Speaker 4: did all the planning and permitting and everything for Bandon
Speaker 4: Dunes and for Mike, and it was a fabulous architect too,
Speaker 4: brilliant guy. But they had they had thought that abandoned
Speaker 4: trails would be all east of the big dune ridge
Speaker 4: back in the forest.
Speaker 3: And that dune ridge is the dune ridge that runs
Speaker 3: through from the hotel really the lodge, all the way across,
Speaker 3: you know, like two at Bandon Dunes plays into it,
Speaker 3: and then eighteen at Pacific and plays along it, and
Speaker 3: Old Mac plays over it on the third hole. So
Speaker 3: that's the dunes ridge, and it'd be east inland of that.
Speaker 4: Yes, but it extends down the coast. It's just a
Speaker 4: giant dune ridge there. And so originally Howard and Mike said,
Speaker 4: let's build it back in the forest.
Speaker 5: It'll be more protected from the wind.
Speaker 4: And I went out there with that understanding, and I
Speaker 4: went back and I wandered back there as best you could.
Speaker 4: It was very hard to get through because of the
Speaker 4: trees and the gorse and things. There were trails though,
Speaker 4: there were both animal trails and a couple of hiking
Speaker 4: trails that went back through there, and.
Speaker 5: I would just look at it. I went out for.
Speaker 4: A number of days, but each time I was staying
Speaker 4: in the lodge, there abandoned dunes and I would walk out,
Speaker 4: and each day I would walk out and I'd look
Speaker 4: at the dunes what's now number one and eighteen abandoned trails,
Speaker 4: and there was a trail that I walked on through
Speaker 4: those dunes, and I walked out through what's now number
Speaker 4: five and number seventeen, the two part threes there what
Speaker 4: we called the meadow area. And then i'd walk and
Speaker 4: get and go around the bottom end of the big
Speaker 4: dune and back into the forest. And each day andy
Speaker 4: i'd come back, I go I could see, I guess
Speaker 4: putting it all over here in the forest. And then
Speaker 4: one day Mike Causer was out there an hour and
Speaker 4: I just remember looking at both of them and I go,
Speaker 4: you know, guys, this is after all called Bandon Dunes.
Speaker 4: What if we start in the dunes and work our
Speaker 4: way to the forest. And Mike was going, well, I
Speaker 4: kind of like I might how are you going to
Speaker 4: do that?
Speaker 5: Though?
Speaker 4: And uh, well, I don't know, but it might be
Speaker 4: interesting that the more I've walked out there, it's three
Speaker 4: distinctly different environments dunes again what we call the meadow
Speaker 4: with the beautiful but the beautiful trees and the connect
Speaker 4: and neck and the ground vegetation and sand, and and
Speaker 4: then of.
Speaker 5: Course in the Pacific Northwest forest.
Speaker 4: And so I'm not quite sure, but I think maybe
Speaker 4: there could be a way. And Mike said, well, how
Speaker 4: are you going to get over the big the big ridge?
Speaker 4: And I'm not sure about that either, cause I know
Speaker 4: we can go at the bottom end of it where
Speaker 4: it's it's much smaller, which is down where six Green
Speaker 4: is seventy.
Speaker 2: So that was a big lynch pans that you.
Speaker 4: Could get around that way. It's just how you were
Speaker 4: going to get back across. And but the more just
Speaker 4: wandered out there and undered out, and Ben came out
Speaker 4: and we just kind of you know, we looked at
Speaker 4: it and it just it just seemed certainly to me
Speaker 4: and Ben was in agreement this it could be interesting
Speaker 4: to tie those three elements environments together. And Mike was
Speaker 4: so as he's always been so supportive, and even though
Speaker 4: it didn't fit what he was thinking of in the beginning,
Speaker 4: he was open to it. And Howard McKee, who had
Speaker 4: permitted everything there, and Howard was Howard whom I just
Speaker 4: absolutely told was one of the most amazing human beings
Speaker 4: I've ever met, and talented people. But I would have
Speaker 4: dinner with Howard quite often and he go, Bill, I
Speaker 4: don't know. I just don't know, he said. He said,
Speaker 4: first of all, he said, we're getting ready to dedicate
Speaker 4: a lot of this dunes area and to preserve and
Speaker 4: he said secondly, he said, that area where you go
Speaker 4: through you call the meadow. He said, that may be
Speaker 4: the prettiest property on this entire all abandoned. Do sight,
Speaker 4: you know, he said, I just don't know how you're
Speaker 4: gonna do golf out there, he goes, but maybe you
Speaker 4: could convince me. And Howard too was open minded. And
Speaker 4: the more we looked at it and the more he
Speaker 4: tried to piece some holes together in the routing. He said,
Speaker 4: all right, all right. I remember distinctly him calling me.
Speaker 4: They were met me out there where the old road
Speaker 4: used to go in to the main road in the
Speaker 4: abandoned dunes. You hit over now on the third T
Speaker 4: and the eighteenth T. And Howard and Mike are both going,
Speaker 4: you're gonna play over the main entry road.
Speaker 5: Well we did. We've all seen places you do it
Speaker 5: a lot, and they go, okay, that's okay.
Speaker 4: But Howard came out there and then he just said, Bill,
Speaker 4: you have one thousand feet one thousand feet from this
Speaker 4: road towards the ocean. He said, that's it. You can't
Speaker 4: go one inch more. He said, I've talked to the
Speaker 4: you know, all the agencies, the state agencies, the county agencies.
Speaker 4: We can get you that much that strip of dunes,
Speaker 4: which is exactly where one in the two and eighteen
Speaker 4: or he said, So you've got that nothing more. And
Speaker 4: then he looked at me and he said, and if
Speaker 4: you mess this up in this medal out here, I'm
Speaker 4: just gonna kill you. He said, this is my favorite
Speaker 4: place in the entire resort. And I said, Howard, look
Speaker 4: at this because what's now the fifth hole, the little
Speaker 4: part three, the green was there. You were talking earlier
Speaker 4: about greens. It was there, the big trough in the
Speaker 4: middle of it. It just graded it off enough to
Speaker 4: put some pins on it. The green at seventeen was
Speaker 4: more or less there, and all the stuff in between.
Speaker 4: So it was it was like, Howard, we're gonna build
Speaker 4: two part three's in your metal here, one going this way,
Speaker 4: one gone that we will do very little disturbance.
Speaker 5: And he goes okay.
Speaker 4: So anyway, that's that's when it linked together and people say, well,
Speaker 4: where did the name trails come from? It came from
Speaker 4: trails because there were hiking trails out there, particularly through
Speaker 4: the meadow part the dunes and the meadow, but then
Speaker 4: there were animal trails over the big dune ridge and
Speaker 4: back into the east. So I used to literally walk
Speaker 4: around all of those trails. And so when Mike and
Speaker 4: everybody was talking about what would the name be, I
Speaker 4: just go, well, there's a lot of trails out there.
Speaker 4: So they said, all right, Bandon trails.
Speaker 1: All right, So that's how Bandon trails became Bandon Trails. Now,
Speaker 1: one thing I think that didn't necessarily come through in
Speaker 1: Bill's memory of the construction is that tying together these
Speaker 1: three environments was a really big, big concern during the project.
Speaker 1: They were actually very worried about it. And this is
Speaker 1: something that comes out and Stephen Goodwin's book Dream Golf
Speaker 1: that you know, I've been mentioning from time to time
Speaker 1: in these deep dives, they were actively thinking like, this
Speaker 1: might not work, we might not be able to do this.
Speaker 2: I think that's the thing.
Speaker 3: Sometimes when you have a golf course that moves into
Speaker 3: different distinct environments, you can get a feel of disjointedness
Speaker 3: and it cannot tie together right, and it cannot blend
Speaker 3: together right. And obviously, you know, a good example of
Speaker 3: a golf course that does it really well is one
Speaker 3: of Bill Corr's favorites, who he's talked about a great
Speaker 3: deal about the routing, how he is enamored with it
Speaker 3: as Cyprus Point. But then there's you know, probably everybody
Speaker 3: here has played a golf course where you all of
Speaker 3: a sudden are like, ah, this, this is out of
Speaker 3: the blue. I didn't know this was coming. And I
Speaker 3: don't know if I necessarily like moving into this environment,
Speaker 3: and then you go back into a different environment, you're
Speaker 3: like Ah, it would be nice if they could have
Speaker 3: just had that the whole way around, you know. And
Speaker 3: I think that's that's something that a lot of courses face,
Speaker 3: and tying together different environments. Obviously a banded trails, there's
Speaker 3: three of them. They have the dunes, the meadow, in
Speaker 3: the in the forest, and tying together those parts and
Speaker 3: making it feel like the same golf course and feel
Speaker 3: you know, like a you know, a well put together story.
Speaker 3: It's just like if you're writing something, it's sometimes hard
Speaker 3: to change topics right and tie those topics together back together.
Speaker 3: They do it so well here, and I think part
Speaker 3: of it is the way that the golf course starts
Speaker 3: and ends in one spot and then visits and you know,
Speaker 3: and revisits to the different other areas.
Speaker 1: Yeah, very successful and not easy to do. I mean,
Speaker 1: it seems that when you just play the finished product,
Speaker 1: it seems like it was easy. It seems like it
Speaker 1: was natural that it would be this way. But I
Speaker 1: think it can't be overstated, like how hard it is
Speaker 1: to pull this off and do it well. Cypress Point
Speaker 1: you mentioned as an example of a course that obviously
Speaker 1: does this well. Now, there was another course that was
Speaker 1: specifically on Mike Kaiser's mind when Bandon Trails was being
Speaker 1: built as an example of a course where it's not
Speaker 1: as successful tying the environments together, and it's very close
Speaker 1: to Cypress Point.
Speaker 3: Yeah, spy Glass, So Spyglass is obviously always the victim
Speaker 3: of this. It's a perfect example of this is where
Speaker 3: you play the first five holes and they're spectacular, they're
Speaker 3: on the ocean, you know, and then the rest of
Speaker 3: the round you're climbing up a hill in a forest
Speaker 3: and there's artificial ponds and it just you're just kind
Speaker 3: of like, oh, that's a different golf course. And I
Speaker 3: always say it should be just flip the nines. It
Speaker 3: would get a lot better. It would be a lot
Speaker 3: more coherent of a story because you'd start up in
Speaker 3: the forest and then you play down and then back
Speaker 3: up into the forest. But like this, that's a good
Speaker 3: example of a golf course that just doesn't feel together,
Speaker 3: jointed in its current routing and journey that you go on.
Speaker 3: Like it, it wouldn't be the way as Bill Bill
Speaker 3: always says, you know, he talks about routing a course
Speaker 3: the way you'd walk a course the first time of
Speaker 3: property the first time, and I don't necessarily think that'd
Speaker 3: be the way you'd walk Spyglass, but I certainly think
Speaker 3: it would be the way very similar way you'd walk
Speaker 3: bandoned trails.
Speaker 1: Right now, I think that an underrated part of what
Speaker 1: makes Spyglass not quite working. I don't want to dump
Speaker 1: on Spyglass too much here because I think it's a
Speaker 1: terrific golf course.
Speaker 2: You lived right next door to it for a while.
Speaker 1: I know. Yeah, so I lived at Stephenson School, which
Speaker 1: is a boarding school that literally is right next to
Speaker 1: Spyglass Hill golf course. Stephenson School is right between Spyglass
Speaker 1: and Poppy Hills, so it's Pop on one side, Spyglass
Speaker 1: on the other. And yeah, I was really close to it.
Speaker 1: And in fact, actually it's great at spy Glass because
Speaker 1: there are little trails that go through the course that
Speaker 1: are public. You can just go walk through that golf course.
Speaker 1: It's not a problem. And we did it all the time.
Speaker 1: You know, my kids were young. We'd put them in
Speaker 1: the strollers and we would be off and taking these
Speaker 1: wonderfully beautiful walks in the forest, which is an incredible environment.
Speaker 1: And so, you know, I don't want to say that
Speaker 1: Spyglass Hill is a terrible golf course. It's really not.
Speaker 1: It's very, very, very good, but it doesn't quite link
Speaker 1: up those two different parts of its identity. And I
Speaker 1: think that one reason for that is that the holes
Speaker 1: that are in the dunes are different in more ways
Speaker 1: than the holes that are up in the forest than
Speaker 1: just the fact that they're in the dunes. The holes
Speaker 1: in the dunes are shorter, they're a quirkier, they just
Speaker 1: look different. Overall that the shaping is kind of different.
Speaker 1: The greens sit in different types of places. The green
Speaker 1: shapes are very different. You know that the fourth green
Speaker 1: is this crazy, like, you know, narrow long thing that
Speaker 1: you never saw Robert tran Jones do something like that again,
Speaker 1: and for some reason he was inspired to do so
Speaker 1: in those dunes. But then when you climb back up
Speaker 1: into the forest, it just it gets a lot more conventional,
Speaker 1: and so it really does give you that schizophrenic feeling.
Speaker 1: Now at a place like Cyprus Point, the holes that
Speaker 1: are back in the forest or in the dune environment
Speaker 1: or out on the ocean cliffs do have a sense
Speaker 1: of unity because the execution of the architecture is similar
Speaker 1: across those environments. So even if they're in different types
Speaker 1: of landscapes, they still feel like they're part of the
Speaker 1: same course.
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, I think that there's also like a
Speaker 3: unifying strategy. They have coherent holes that you know, kind
Speaker 3: of fit alongside each other and blend together well in
Speaker 3: terms of like they you know, you have the rhythm
Speaker 3: and when you go Spyglass, like you go it's it's
Speaker 3: all those short holes you're talking about, kind of quirkier holes,
Speaker 3: and then you go back up into the hill and
Speaker 3: you just feel like you're getting bludgeoned with a hammer.
Speaker 3: But you know, there's it loses some of the kind
Speaker 3: of up and down nature that some of the really
Speaker 3: great courses have where you have a mix of gettable
Speaker 3: holes and tough holes, and you know, golf course could
Speaker 3: be hard, like this is not, but it is a
Speaker 3: it's the idea of some flow in it where you
Speaker 3: feel like you've got some good chances, and especially chances
Speaker 3: if you pull off shots, like there are holes out
Speaker 3: of Spyglass where if you hit two great shots, you're
Speaker 3: just like hoping to make a par after two great shots,
Speaker 3: you know, like the eighth holes.
Speaker 2: When it comes to mind, like I don't know what
Speaker 2: you do.
Speaker 3: There, just just praying to hit two good shots and
Speaker 3: then you might have like forty feet out of pretty
Speaker 3: severe green to make you know, and you know, I
Speaker 3: think that's kind of what what happens. Whereas, like, I
Speaker 3: think one of the things overarching with Core and Crenshaw
Speaker 3: that I I've noticed is like if you execute, if
Speaker 3: you hit shots, you get really good scoring opportunities. And
Speaker 3: I think that's something like where you can really get
Speaker 3: cooking on Core Crenshaw courses.
Speaker 2: If you play well.
Speaker 3: But if you're off, you know, it's going to be
Speaker 3: a tough day, Like it's not easy if you're off.
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Speaker 1: Let's get back to how Trails ties together these different places. Okay,
Speaker 1: so we've mentioned that there is a coherence to the architecture,
Speaker 1: whether it's strategy or shape. Trails has that across the
Speaker 1: three different areas. But I think that there are other
Speaker 1: things that make these different environments feel like they're part
Speaker 1: of the same course. One is the way that the
Speaker 1: holes are connected with each other, and how thoughtful the
Speaker 1: transitions from a green to the next tee are and
Speaker 1: how often those trails between a green and a tea
Speaker 1: take you from one environment to the next, And so
Speaker 1: there's kind of a gradual fade or a gradual blend.
Speaker 1: Think of the trail from the second hole, which is
Speaker 1: in the dunes, to the third te which is starting
Speaker 1: to be in the meadow with some trees around. You
Speaker 1: walk off of that second green and you're still in
Speaker 1: the dunes. You can kind of see what's ahead of you.
Speaker 1: You can kind of see that there are some trees
Speaker 1: and a different type of terrain, but that trail just
Speaker 1: so beautifully like gradually fades from dunes to the flora
Speaker 1: of the meadow environment, and it just makes you feel
Speaker 1: like they're part of each other. So there are these segues.
Speaker 1: If we're using a writing metaphor, you need segues between
Speaker 1: different sections and paragraphs. That's what these trails do.
Speaker 3: I think another way you could put it is like
Speaker 3: when you're somewhere where you have a great DJ. They're
Speaker 3: playing all these different songs, different you know, sometimes different
Speaker 3: genres of music. But the way they kind of blend
Speaker 3: the two songs together at the transition. Think of that
Speaker 3: as the Trails at Banded Trails where it's that kind
Speaker 3: of in between the two songs where you get you
Speaker 3: know what's coming, but you're still finishing out the other song,
Speaker 3: so you know that's ending and you're going and it's
Speaker 3: that in between phase. And that's kind of the way
Speaker 3: trails works with these in between these holes that go
Speaker 3: from one area to the next.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So there are the connections between the holes,
Speaker 1: and then there's the overall sense of coherence in the
Speaker 1: story of the course and it's routing. I've heard you
Speaker 1: talk about this before. What's your basic take on what
Speaker 1: the story of this course is?
Speaker 3: So I think one of the things with the resort, right,
Speaker 3: all the holes on the ocean are are kind of interconnected,
Speaker 3: and you're you're at this resort and you know you're
Speaker 3: at the resort when you're at these courses and you're
Speaker 3: you're right there, you're on the ocean. There's infrastructure, there's clubhouses,
Speaker 3: there's everything. At Bandon Trails, you kind of go out
Speaker 3: to the edge of this ocean side and you start
Speaker 3: and what it is, it's a story of departure.
Speaker 2: You leave the resort and you.
Speaker 3: Go almost it's really you know as somebody who shoot
Speaker 3: shot out there. I took a hiking trail and it
Speaker 3: is you go on almost a hike out there. It
Speaker 3: definitely has the most vertical climb of any golf course
Speaker 3: out there, and you go up into the forest, but
Speaker 3: like you're leaving and it's it's very peaceful. Everywhere else
Speaker 3: you hear the crashing of the waves on the ocean.
Speaker 3: At Trails, it's silent, and it's really a peaceful place
Speaker 3: to be because when you're down at the resort, you
Speaker 3: see people, you see your you know, you see other holes.
Speaker 3: You get up at the top of the of Trails
Speaker 3: and you're isolated and it's and you really feel a
Speaker 3: way and you feel this, you know, departure from this
Speaker 3: resort that you've been staying in. The resort's wonderful, but
Speaker 3: it is nice to get away. And I think that's
Speaker 3: one of the things Trails has got this somewhat cult following,
Speaker 3: and I think, you know, some people have trouble synthesizing
Speaker 3: why it's their favorite place. And you get to leave
Speaker 3: society for a while, and that's really delightful. It's a
Speaker 3: delightful escapism that it offers guests out there and you know,
Speaker 3: you get to go on effectively, what's the most beautiful
Speaker 3: hike that you could create out there.
Speaker 1: It's interesting that the resort sort of feels like civilization now.
Speaker 1: Right the place where Bandon dunees is Pacific Dunes and
Speaker 1: Old MacDonald, all of that really does feel like a
Speaker 1: bustling city at this point, and so Bandon Trails is
Speaker 1: a departure from that. It is more isolated up there.
Speaker 1: It is, there's more solitude, and there's this sense that,
Speaker 1: you know, what you're hearing is no longer other people
Speaker 1: and vehicles and stuff like that. It's it's the sounds
Speaker 1: of nature when you're up there. But just think of
Speaker 1: when Bandon Dunes was just one course, the whole thing
Speaker 1: was a departure. Then there wasn't this sense of bustle
Speaker 1: or civilization as much at the resort. And so maybe
Speaker 1: what the function of Trails was was that the resort
Speaker 1: was starting to take on this character of a really
Speaker 1: busy place. Right. You know, Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes
Speaker 1: in the early two thousands were packed just all the time,
Speaker 1: all day, and so here comes Bandon Trails, offering a
Speaker 1: reprieve from that and a little sense of what the
Speaker 1: overall feel of the resort was very early in its life,
Speaker 1: so it's kind of appropriate that Trails came along when
Speaker 1: when it did well.
Speaker 3: I think that also, you know, I think that leads
Speaker 3: into some of the real popularity today and how it's
Speaker 3: grown over time, is that people get there and they're
Speaker 3: you're part of the resort, and.
Speaker 2: You know you're part of this.
Speaker 3: It's like a disney It's not Disneyland, like I'm just
Speaker 3: to say, like a Disneyland of golf, right, and this
Speaker 3: is the one where you get away and you get
Speaker 3: you get and that's such a nice feeling and whether
Speaker 3: you know, I think that is something that's become more
Speaker 3: and more part of its identity as the resorts continue
Speaker 3: to grow after it, because Old MacDonald is definitely part
Speaker 3: of that bustling system and Sheep Ranch is a little
Speaker 3: bit disconnected but still really part of that system.
Speaker 2: You can see all the other courses.
Speaker 1: You get that.
Speaker 3: Ocean sound, that ambient noise. I think think one of
Speaker 3: the things that when you if you go out to
Speaker 3: Trails is the solitude.
Speaker 1: Of it and away from the ocean, the ocean is
Speaker 1: super loud. When you get away from Trails, you notice
Speaker 1: its absence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing.
Speaker 3: One time I played a golf tournament at like a
Speaker 3: state am at Beverly in the city, and I was there.
Speaker 3: So I was there for four straight days, and it's
Speaker 3: one of the loudest courses in the country. Like it's
Speaker 3: got city roads, it's got a railroad, it's got it's
Speaker 3: right in the flight path of a major airport, and
Speaker 3: it's so loud.
Speaker 2: But after four days you get used to it.
Speaker 3: And I remember the next day or a day after that,
Speaker 3: I went to a different golf course and I was like, God,
Speaker 3: it's so quiet here, you know. And I think that's
Speaker 3: something that happens with Trails is that it's it's it
Speaker 3: and it's so distinctly different. That's I think the magic
Speaker 3: of it for the resort is that it is it
Speaker 3: is so unique to the other courses. Like the other
Speaker 3: courses are all different, you know, they have their own identities,
Speaker 3: but they do sit on ocean dunes. They all share
Speaker 3: a very similar setting. Here, the settings completely unique and
Speaker 3: it and that is something I think that makes it
Speaker 3: such a you know, have such a cult following.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you mentioned that it's a story of departure,
Speaker 1: but then it's also a story of return, right, So
Speaker 1: it's departure and return. And the key is that you
Speaker 1: don't start already departed. You start with something familiar. You
Speaker 1: start in the bustle of the rest of the resort
Speaker 1: with the two holes in the dunes with one and two,
Speaker 1: and then you gradually fade into this sense that you're
Speaker 1: away and that you're you've departed by working your way
Speaker 1: through the meadow and then up back ridge and into
Speaker 1: the forest where you stay for seven holes. And then
Speaker 1: there there's a turning point where you launch off of
Speaker 1: the ridge spectacularly with the fourteenth hole, but a controversial
Speaker 1: hole which we'll we'll talk about later, and you're back
Speaker 1: in the meadow all of a sudden, and then the
Speaker 1: story is, you know, kind of gradually fading back into
Speaker 1: the dunes and then you fully return there by the
Speaker 1: eighteenth hole. So I think the way that these the
Speaker 1: dunes environment at Bandon Trails functions is sort of like
Speaker 1: a frame story in a movie, and novels sometimes use
Speaker 1: this device too, And what a frame story is is
Speaker 1: basically a separate set of scenes that take place at
Speaker 1: a different place in a different time and Often what
Speaker 1: happens is that the characters in the frame story are
Speaker 1: telling the story that constitutes most of what you're reading
Speaker 1: or watching. And so an example of this is like
Speaker 1: Saving Private Ryan. The frame story is the older Private
Speaker 1: Ryan in basically the present day, the nineties when the
Speaker 1: movie came out, all right, going to the cemetery. Do
Speaker 1: you remember this? Yeah, he goes to this, it's the
Speaker 1: beginning of the movie. That's the beginning of the movie.
Speaker 1: He goes to the cemetery and then flashes back remembers.
Speaker 1: I think, I don't think he's telling the story, but
Speaker 1: d day right, and and the whole movie is set there.
Speaker 1: But then at the end it goes back to the
Speaker 1: older Private Ryan at the cemetery. We returned there. That's
Speaker 1: a frame story. It brackets the story. Another example of
Speaker 1: this is the Princess Bride, right with Peter Falk I
Speaker 1: think it is who plays the grandfather, and then Fred
Speaker 1: Savage as the as the little boy.
Speaker 2: And that's familiar with that one.
Speaker 1: Princess Bride.
Speaker 2: Really, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I got to get you to watch Princess Bride. It'll
Speaker 1: be familiar to a lot of people who are not
Speaker 1: familiar with Saving private, Ryan, I'm trying to cover all
Speaker 1: our bases here. And so the frame story is the
Speaker 1: grandfather reading the story to the little boy, and most
Speaker 1: of the movie is that story that he's reading, right,
Speaker 1: and you return there a couple of times throughout the movie,
Speaker 1: but mainly at the beginning and the end. It is
Speaker 1: this bracketing frame story. And so for me that the
Speaker 1: first and last holes at Bandon Trails are like the
Speaker 1: frame story, right, This is we're in a familiar kind
Speaker 1: of time and place, but we we know.
Speaker 2: Where we are, almost like a dream.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then we then we transition. Yeah. The rest
Speaker 1: of the course, I feel like is the dream.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like you're it's you're waking.
Speaker 3: It's like you're going to sleep conscious and you're waking conscious.
Speaker 3: If you consider if you thought of it as a dream.
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I love that. I think that's exactly what
Speaker 1: it feels like. Now. People may think that we're getting
Speaker 1: a little bit high on our own supply.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're gonna be wondering what we smoked before this.
Speaker 1: This is getting very dorm room. But it really does
Speaker 1: feel that way that that is what we're trying to explain,
Speaker 1: is the the ineffable feeling of magic at bandoned trails.
Speaker 1: This course has it. It has that something that really
Speaker 1: transports you. And that's why I love it so much. Right,
Speaker 1: That's why I love this course. I don't love this
Speaker 1: course because it's a collection of the best holes abandoned dunes,
Speaker 1: because it's not that's Pacific Dunes, you know. I love
Speaker 1: it because it has this feeling to it that is
Speaker 1: dream like, that is story like, that's transporting. That's what
Speaker 1: it does.
Speaker 5: So well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's the that is it, and I
Speaker 3: think there's some other qualities to it. You know, if
Speaker 3: you play it in the afternoon, one of the things
Speaker 3: that you get out there is you get, whether you
Speaker 3: whether you're a photographer that recognizes this stuff or you're
Speaker 3: just somebody that does, you know, you get that unbelievable
Speaker 3: filtered light through the trees out there that you don't
Speaker 3: get anywhere else. You get you get that like kind
Speaker 3: of misty filtered light in the afternoon out there.
Speaker 2: That adds to that aura.
Speaker 3: And and you're going through this journey and if you're
Speaker 3: playing in the afternoon, which I recommend everybody if you're
Speaker 3: going to do an app like if you're doing a
Speaker 3: morning afternoon round, do an afternoon round it at Trails
Speaker 3: because in the afternoon that light, that afternoon light hits
Speaker 3: and it comes through those trees and it's just like
Speaker 3: everything turns gold and it just adds to you know,
Speaker 3: if we're going to use dream, it adds to that
Speaker 3: dream that you're having out there, and it's it's super neat,
Speaker 3: I think, like, and what you said is right, like
Speaker 3: when I think about you know, they have some weak
Speaker 3: holes at Trails, like and it's not not at all
Speaker 3: the best collection of golf holes from a from a
Speaker 3: golf architecture standpoint on the resort, but it's got the
Speaker 3: best story of any golf course out there from from
Speaker 3: a storytelling standpoint.
Speaker 1: And the holes are really good and some of them
Speaker 1: are absolutely great, Like a good half of them I
Speaker 1: think you could say are great golf holes. But there
Speaker 1: are courses at the resort Pacific Dunes certainly, but maybe
Speaker 1: also Old MacDonald where if you're going hole by if
Speaker 1: you do that kind of head to head thing people do.
Speaker 1: But what's the best first hole, what's the best second hole?
Speaker 1: I mean, we did this exercise with the Dream eighteen, but.
Speaker 3: It Trails finished had so many that just finished second
Speaker 3: or third.
Speaker 1: You know, in people thought we didn't like trails. When
Speaker 1: we put out that episode, They're like, ooh, seems like
Speaker 1: you don't like trails. It's like, no, it just is
Speaker 1: not built to do well in this kind of exercise.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but if you if you flipped it and said
Speaker 3: how you would you split ten rounds between this course
Speaker 3: and this course, it would win a lot.
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3: Let's talk about so we've talked about the dunes holes,
Speaker 3: let's talk about the metal holes.
Speaker 2: That's the next thing. You transition.
Speaker 3: So obviously you move from two to three, and that's
Speaker 3: one of the cooler transitions of the golf course you play,
Speaker 3: you know, to the dramatic part three that you kind
Speaker 3: of plunge down into the bottom of a dune and
Speaker 3: then you're down and it enters you into the meadow.
Speaker 3: I will say this really quickly. If that damn road
Speaker 3: wasn't there, it'd be so much cooler. It already is
Speaker 3: extraordinarily cool, but it was you know, it's like, what
Speaker 3: I think, one of the coolest moments on property. But
Speaker 3: it would be so much better if the road wasn't there.
Speaker 2: And I kind of hate the road. It makes me angry.
Speaker 1: Now, that's so, I see it. It's too bad. Yeah
Speaker 1: and yeah, and the road was there before the course
Speaker 1: was built too, that was the entrance road. And it
Speaker 1: was a discussion on the design team and with the ownership,
Speaker 1: like isn't it kind of weird guys that were building
Speaker 1: holes like right by our road? You know, what are
Speaker 1: we doing here? But it certainly wasn't planned that way.
Speaker 1: There is a different way to get into the resort.
Speaker 1: There's a road that comes straight out. It doesn't do
Speaker 1: kind of this wandering path around that this road does.
Speaker 1: And you kind of wish maybe that they'd close it down,
Speaker 1: but that's obviously very much easier said than done.
Speaker 5: Can you think it?
Speaker 2: I think you're going to get the logistics guys on
Speaker 2: your ass here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't. It's not realistic, Garrett, Why are you
Speaker 1: even talking about it?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: You need to get a big infrastructure talk gone. You know,
Speaker 3: maybe they'll be part Deep Dives, Part six bandon.
Speaker 1: Infrastructure, really really deep dive.
Speaker 2: We'll bring chron Carter in as.
Speaker 1: It Infrastructure week on the freddig podcast featuring Trunk Carter. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: let's make it happen. Why not The Meadow. The meadow
Speaker 1: is one of the coolest places ever. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: just so beautiful there. It is completely unique. The plants
Speaker 1: that they have around there. I don't know all the names.
Speaker 1: I think there's one called kinnikinick, which is a great
Speaker 1: name for a plant. But there's you know, there's all
Speaker 1: this different all these different little things that you see.
Speaker 1: There's so many different colors and textures. It's just a
Speaker 1: great place. Bill Korer loved it from the start. He
Speaker 1: wanted that and had to fight for that piece of land.
Speaker 3: Beyond the the unbelievable aesthetic that the meadow has, it's
Speaker 3: it's so beautiful. The fauna flora make that and the
Speaker 3: trees make that, you know, aesthetic so unique. Beyond having
Speaker 3: this beautiful aesthetic as as pretty of an inland asthetic
Speaker 3: as you could have, it also has some of the
Speaker 3: best ridges that you could ask for in terms of
Speaker 3: golf ridges that you know, they worked into the holes
Speaker 3: to be in very impactful areas off the tea and
Speaker 3: at greens where greens sat into uh you know, below
Speaker 3: or on top of these ridges.
Speaker 1: Incredible land for golf. And you know, if we're talking
Speaker 1: about ridges, there's one that kind of cuts semi diagonally
Speaker 1: across the fourth hole.
Speaker 3: What's such a great thing about that ridge on the
Speaker 3: fourth and it's why it's you know, I picked the
Speaker 3: fourth and old Mac. I sometimes regret that decision for
Speaker 3: the dream eighteen I may, I may, I love the
Speaker 3: fourth that abandoned the diagonal nature of it, and an
Speaker 3: old max is diagonal.
Speaker 2: In a similar way.
Speaker 3: But what that does, which I think is is something
Speaker 3: really important in the modern game of golf, is it
Speaker 3: makes long hitters particularly have to hit the ball the
Speaker 3: right distance and on the correct line. And that's something
Speaker 3: that Bill Korr talks a lot about. He talked about
Speaker 3: it in the lead up to Trinity Forest. Is the
Speaker 3: idea of hey, you know, you're gonna have to pick
Speaker 3: how far you hit it if you want to hit
Speaker 3: it on a certain line and there you know, if
Speaker 3: you hit it a little too far on the left line,
Speaker 3: which is safer, you're going to run into the bunkers.
Speaker 3: If you hit it a little too short on the
Speaker 3: right line, you're gonna not get over the hill, or
Speaker 3: you're gonna tumble into the right bunkers. You have to
Speaker 3: really merge, you know, you a great t shot is
Speaker 3: different based off of what distance you hit it, which
Speaker 3: I think is really neat. Like you know, it's not
Speaker 3: just one singular line. It is are you hitting it
Speaker 3: three hundred, are you hitting it two fifty? Are you
Speaker 3: hitting it to seventy five? These are all different windows,
Speaker 3: which is really neat because of that ridge. And then
Speaker 3: and then the green sits in a beautiful little pocket.
Speaker 1: Which is a theme in this part of the property.
Speaker 1: The green sites are incredible. The fifteenth Green is one
Speaker 1: of the great green sites on the on the resort.
Speaker 1: That's it just is perfectly kind of blended in there.
Speaker 1: I don't know how much dirt they moved to make
Speaker 1: that green.
Speaker 3: Bill Bill said it wasn't very much. I think he
Speaker 3: didn't say it on the pod, but he was.
Speaker 2: We were talking about it before.
Speaker 1: It wasn't very much.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a green that he brought up himself.
Speaker 1: The fifth Green I know, which has that big trough
Speaker 1: through it was there. Yes, that's what That's what Bill
Speaker 1: says is that was basically just sitting there. And the
Speaker 1: discussion was about whether they had to tone it down
Speaker 1: a little bit because because it's it is, it has
Speaker 1: big undulations. But that was essentially sitting in the land
Speaker 1: waiting to be discovered as a green for a short
Speaker 1: part of three, which it is now the fourth hole.
Speaker 1: I've come around on this hole. This is not one
Speaker 1: that I liked. Initially, I thought it was too hard
Speaker 1: to get over the ridge. I thought it was just
Speaker 1: a blind second shot, no matter what. But you know,
Speaker 1: when I revisited it, I saw that there were these
Speaker 1: different ways that you could negotiate your way around.
Speaker 3: Since you brought up holes that upon first site sometimes
Speaker 3: rubbed people the wrong way. Should we should we talk
Speaker 3: about another metal hole, the fourteeth.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's just first sight that people don't
Speaker 1: like this whole. Hold on. I think there are people
Speaker 1: who have seen this hole many times who despise it.
Speaker 3: It's so the fourteenth you come out of the forest.
Speaker 3: It's the first hole out of the forest. And obviously
Speaker 3: you've got the famous bench up there that you know,
Speaker 3: Mike Kaiser sat at and you know.
Speaker 1: And gazed out upon his domain and yeah.
Speaker 3: You know, some some line that's probably been changed a
Speaker 3: little bit.
Speaker 2: Over the years. Yeah, maybe makes a little bit more dramatic,
Speaker 2: but it is.
Speaker 1: An incredible view. I mean, you can kind of why,
Speaker 1: you know, somebody who came there and looked out at
Speaker 1: the view of the ocean and the dunes and all
Speaker 1: the variety of this property might think to himself, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that this should be this should be a place people
Speaker 1: play go.
Speaker 3: The first time I played Banded Trails, I played by
Speaker 3: myself late in the afternoon. This was like the day
Speaker 3: before the world shut down for COVID, like, and I
Speaker 3: was in bandoned that it was the first time I
Speaker 3: played trails. I teed off like two hours before sunset
Speaker 3: and was just nobody was out there, and I was
Speaker 3: just booking around myself and honestly, I didn't know where
Speaker 3: anything was. And I walked from from thirteen up to
Speaker 3: fourteen to that exact spot and I just was like,
Speaker 3: oh my it was a beautiful night. And I was like,
Speaker 3: oh my god. And then I read it so like
Speaker 3: I will say I had a.
Speaker 1: Similar, same experience. I did not know fun of it.
Speaker 3: I know, I didn't know it was there, but like
Speaker 3: it was like a very similar experience.
Speaker 2: But it is like, you know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Well, there's that view, okay, so that that's the view
Speaker 1: from the tee. It's absolutely amazing and so you're immediately
Speaker 1: primed to think that this is a great hole you're
Speaker 1: about to play, because look at what you're playing off of.
Speaker 1: But okay, so here's the hole. It sits on a
Speaker 1: pretty severe side slope. There is a little area on
Speaker 1: the left where if you place your T shot there
Speaker 1: then you will stay up high and you'll have a
Speaker 1: shot into the green. But most people's tea shots run
Speaker 1: down to the right. Okay, And when you're down on
Speaker 1: the right and hitting up onto this green, I don't
Speaker 1: think I've really seen somebody hold the green from down
Speaker 1: on the bottom on the right, and that's because this
Speaker 1: green is a tabletop. On the right are bunkers and
Speaker 1: a severe drop off that goes with the general movement
Speaker 1: of the land. And then on the left there is
Speaker 1: another drop off that's that's doesn't go down as far,
Speaker 1: but there's a definite kind of rejecting contour on the
Speaker 1: left of this green that goes down into this little gully,
Speaker 1: and then the land moves back up the hillside. And
Speaker 1: so people's objection to this hole is I think twofold one.
Speaker 1: It's too hard to find the ideal position on your
Speaker 1: T shot to be up on the left and have
Speaker 1: a view of the green and a reasonable angle in there.
Speaker 1: And two it's just too hard to hold this green.
Speaker 1: And once you're kind of in various spots around it,
Speaker 1: it's you can go back and forth all day. Now,
Speaker 1: I'm just putting that out there as the argument against
Speaker 1: this hole. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with it.
Speaker 3: Now, i'd say from the left side, if you I've
Speaker 3: been in the boat where I've been over left after
Speaker 3: my second shot, I've been in the boat where I
Speaker 3: went right off the tee and hit the green.
Speaker 2: You know it was a really good shot.
Speaker 1: Did you hit the green?
Speaker 2: This was the first time I played it?
Speaker 3: Oh, okay, I've been in the spot where I was
Speaker 3: in the ideal location and I missed the.
Speaker 2: Green from the idea. Remember that horrible shot.
Speaker 3: But but the point I think is like, if you
Speaker 3: miss back left, it's it's a pretty manageable up and
Speaker 3: down from there for par.
Speaker 1: I think so too. I think that that is the
Speaker 1: that is the best counter argument that you can make
Speaker 1: that shot from back there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like if you so, if you miss right off
Speaker 3: the tee, which is the natural place to hit the ball,
Speaker 3: there's you know what I love.
Speaker 2: Here's what I like.
Speaker 3: About the whole lot is that it is a very
Speaker 3: friendly T shot. If you consider friendly fairway, Like, if
Speaker 3: you think a success of your T shot is finding
Speaker 3: the fairway, you're gonna love the T shot. But what
Speaker 3: I like, what I love even more about it, is
Speaker 3: that it is a hole where the fairway isn't necessarily friendly.
Speaker 1: No, that's the thing.
Speaker 3: I just think the magic of a golf hole, I
Speaker 3: think just one of the greatest, one of my greatest joys.
Speaker 3: And I think I think this comes if you you know,
Speaker 3: I used to play strictly for score really early in
Speaker 3: my life, and that was what my my round and
Speaker 3: how I thought of things was was through a lens
Speaker 3: of this. And when I stopped caring about score as
Speaker 3: much because I stopped playing competitive golf, what I started
Speaker 3: to realize was my favorite things happened when I playing,
Speaker 3: when I was playing a course for the first, second, third,
Speaker 3: and in really great courses for the you know, if
Speaker 3: you've played somewhere ten times and then they still trick you.
Speaker 3: When you get tricked, it's such a wonderful thing.
Speaker 2: It's like I thought, I thought I could hit it
Speaker 2: over there, but I can't.
Speaker 3: You know, that is a magical feeling, I think if
Speaker 3: you but you know, it's hard to feel that way
Speaker 3: if you're really, really, you know, grinding on score on
Speaker 3: your personal score. And I think this is a whole
Speaker 3: that's so brilliant because they give you all the room
Speaker 3: in the world over there, and it's super short. You
Speaker 3: can make a two here if you're long hitter, it's
Speaker 3: two is in the cards. But if you're if you're
Speaker 3: out of position, four is gonna be very very hard
Speaker 3: to make well.
Speaker 1: So I don't know if this hole necessarily tricks you,
Speaker 1: does it. I think it's pretty clear to most people
Speaker 1: what you need to do. You need to try to
Speaker 1: stay up left, but it's just really hard to do that.
Speaker 3: Here's the thing, though, is you you know that the
Speaker 3: only place, the only place you can really ruin the
Speaker 3: hole and your mind is left is if you hit
Speaker 3: it left where the way and the forest on the
Speaker 3: left and and and it's it's just like the almost
Speaker 3: like that famous hole Woking the fourth right with the
Speaker 3: railroad and the center line bunker. Right here, they have
Speaker 3: a ridge right in the center of the fairway right
Speaker 3: that that that ridge then pushes you further and further
Speaker 3: off line. But if you play along the railroad at
Speaker 3: Woking at a boundary line, so just think of the
Speaker 3: left as out of bounds, is it. You know, you're
Speaker 3: just gonna be hard to find your ball over there,
Speaker 3: and they give you all the space of the world, right.
Speaker 3: I mean, you can hit it really bad shot right
Speaker 3: and it still finds that fairway over there on fourteen
Speaker 3: and you know, they give you all the room of
Speaker 3: the world over there. And whether you or not you
Speaker 3: admit it. Subliminally, what happens is people bail out. You know,
Speaker 3: it's very hard to get yourself to hit it up
Speaker 3: the left, and that's where you know, whether or not
Speaker 3: people admit it, they chicken out a lot and they
Speaker 3: and they bail right, and you face the penalty for
Speaker 3: bailing right, and people what people get upset about is
Speaker 3: that they can't hit the green from the fairway from
Speaker 3: forty yards and you shouldn't always be able to, especially
Speaker 3: on a three hundred and twenty yard hold or whatever
Speaker 3: the yardage is. The yardage is irrelevant, right, you know,
Speaker 3: if you if you can hit it up there that close,
Speaker 3: there should be some penalty for being in a very
Speaker 3: very bad position.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And if we're talking about course management. If you're
Speaker 1: down on the right, what you need to do is
Speaker 1: have a club or a distance where you know you're
Speaker 1: going to be long. You know where you're not going
Speaker 1: to be short in the bunkers on the right, because
Speaker 1: that's really really dead and you can hit that shot.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 1: I think that over time they have softened that green
Speaker 1: a little bit, so maybe the recoveries are easier than
Speaker 1: they used to be, and maybe some people form their
Speaker 1: impression of the hole earlier on when the green was
Speaker 1: more severe.
Speaker 2: Apparently the hole is really similar to ten at Riviera.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but so much more extreme in its land.
Speaker 3: The land is what the Riviera has, the extreme bunkers
Speaker 3: and more extreme green contours.
Speaker 1: And really hard to hit from the right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the same thing though, it's the same concept.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 3: You know if you can hit it pin high left
Speaker 3: your gold. It's just it's just, you know, a riv
Speaker 3: you've got palm trees, like palm tree bushes that you
Speaker 3: could get in here, you've got a forest.
Speaker 1: Here's the difference. I think here's the difference between fourteen
Speaker 1: abandoned Trails and ten at Riviera, and that's that it's
Speaker 1: a much more common outcome on the tenth hole at
Speaker 1: Riviera that a player ends up left of the green.
Speaker 2: They don't have out of bounds, they don't.
Speaker 1: Have out of bounds on the left. You have room
Speaker 1: on the left, and you don't have the whole fair
Speaker 1: way pushing your ball to the right. So it's a
Speaker 1: much more common outcome to be up the left, And
Speaker 1: I think that that's what that's the argument I think
Speaker 1: that a lot of people have against trails is that
Speaker 1: if you're thinking about the percentage of times that the
Speaker 1: outcome is that you're up on the left and you
Speaker 1: have the ideal angle, it's pretty rare. That said, I
Speaker 1: saw you up there once, and I've been up there
Speaker 1: once the first time I played trails, So it does happen.
Speaker 1: And so the question is like what percentage is acceptable?
Speaker 1: You know, if we're talking about a hole where the
Speaker 1: there's an ideal side of the fairway or angle, at
Speaker 1: what point does it become a bad golf hole because
Speaker 1: that outcome is too rare? And I don't know. I
Speaker 1: think it's an open question. I think that if every
Speaker 1: hole abandoned trails were like this, it would be a problem.
Speaker 1: But personally, I don't have a big issue with it
Speaker 1: being the one hole on the course that's kind of
Speaker 1: like this.
Speaker 3: Another thing I like about it is it introduces an
Speaker 3: extremely high variance in scoring without a ton of lost balls.
Speaker 3: It does this without like a huge water hazard in
Speaker 3: front of the green like an island green.
Speaker 2: It creates an extreme.
Speaker 3: Like if you get out of there with a birdie,
Speaker 3: you know, if you're playing in a foursome, somebody's making
Speaker 3: a five or six, you know, and it's a short hole,
Speaker 3: and I just think that it's I think sometimes like
Speaker 3: if you think about like a golf course as a
Speaker 3: you know, golf course is kind of like defender, right,
Speaker 3: the fourteenth is kind of like you're Bruce Bowen. He's like,
Speaker 3: you're the guy that's just like he's He's or Patrick, Yeah,
Speaker 3: he's Javan Javian. At your sides, he's You're chippy. It's
Speaker 3: the chippy defender that gets under everybody's skin at one point.
Speaker 2: But it's just that, yeah, it's just he just here.
Speaker 3: It is just an irritator, you know, And some people
Speaker 3: can have a wonderful time and have no problem. Like
Speaker 3: people have games where they have no problem with Bruce
Speaker 3: Bowen and torch him but then there's some other days
Speaker 3: where they just they just get under their skin. And
Speaker 3: you know, and I think that's the way you got
Speaker 3: to think of this is it's like it's the guy
Speaker 3: that you want on your team, but you don't want
Speaker 3: to play against.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the and the guy. When you play against
Speaker 1: this kind of player, you think you should be able
Speaker 1: to take advantage. I mean, Bruce Bowen wasn't the most
Speaker 1: athletic player in the world, right, Yeah, And I think
Speaker 1: you have that a lot of people have the same
Speaker 1: reaction to the fourteenth fold. We just compared to golf.
Speaker 1: Hold the Bruce Bowen. By the way, why am I
Speaker 1: not short bar four with a hugely wide fair way.
Speaker 1: It's drivable in a lot of situations when the wind
Speaker 1: is going the right direction. How am I taking a
Speaker 1: seven here? You know that's the feeling. Okay, so banit.
Speaker 1: We should probably talk about that. We've spent twenty minutes
Speaker 1: now on fourteen abandoned trails.
Speaker 3: But the forest holes, the forest you want to talk
Speaker 3: about the crossing because the crossing school too. Five and
Speaker 3: seventeen in the metal holes abandoned trails. One of the
Speaker 3: best spots in golf.
Speaker 1: Fourteen is an interesting hole to talk about because there's
Speaker 1: a debate about it. But I don't see any argument
Speaker 1: that fifteen isn't just an incredible, wonderful golf hole. Same
Speaker 1: with five and seventeen and three and four.
Speaker 2: Six is cool. I think six is a cool hole.
Speaker 1: Two six is so cool. High low fairway, very subtle green,
Speaker 1: probably the flattest green.
Speaker 3: Very hard green to hit because of the angle. I
Speaker 3: especially if you're on the low side, on the left side.
Speaker 1: Now, sixteen is definitely not one of my favorite holes.
Speaker 1: That's that's one where I actually think this is not
Speaker 1: a very good golf hole. It's a part five that
Speaker 1: just goes straight up a hill.
Speaker 3: Seven fits into that boat too. The hard holes out
Speaker 3: there are the ones that go up the hills.
Speaker 1: And there may be holes that you, especially the first
Speaker 1: time you play them, you might not remember much about them.
Speaker 1: You might remember that seventeen goes sixteen goes straight up
Speaker 1: a hill. But I think nine and ten also are
Speaker 1: ones that don't stick super firmly in the memory. Come
Speaker 1: on twelve.
Speaker 2: Nine.
Speaker 3: I love nine. I just love the green. I love
Speaker 3: the back there all in the trees. I think the
Speaker 3: ridge off the tee on nine's cool. I think you're
Speaker 3: short change in nine. I really I enjoyed nine.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying it's not a hole that you remember,
Speaker 1: particularly after the first time playing.
Speaker 3: I think that's like the most peaceful spot, like you
Speaker 3: get back there or eleven that are eleven, you know,
Speaker 3: the nine and eleven stick out to me is two
Speaker 3: places where like I kind of pinch myself as to like, God,
Speaker 3: is this really you know, I don't think. I don't
Speaker 3: think the best I think the weakest holes the trails
Speaker 3: probably are the forest holes in general. But I will
Speaker 3: say that, you know, the meadow is probably my favorite,
Speaker 3: but the forest part is where I feel like the
Speaker 3: most alive.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I was working through all the holes
Speaker 1: that might be considered less than absolutely exceptional to get
Speaker 1: to holes like eight, eleven, thirteen that are incredible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 3: I think the meadows probably to be the best golf holes,
Speaker 3: but the I think the in there. I'd love the
Speaker 3: forest holes too. I just love that getting up to
Speaker 3: the top. You know, you climb up on the seventh,
Speaker 3: and you know, I think the seventh is a decent hole,
Speaker 3: and you get up there and then I think those
Speaker 3: that being up there, you feel that like sense of
Speaker 3: accomplishment that you've almost made it to the top and
Speaker 3: then you get to just explore back there in the forest.
Speaker 3: And I think one of the things for me being
Speaker 3: somebody not from the Pacific Northwest is like, that's such
Speaker 3: a unique type of golf and and just setting for
Speaker 3: golf with those big trees. And yeah, the eleventh is
Speaker 3: so cool too, the green site down by the pond,
Speaker 3: that's that's just like and it's so fun looking back
Speaker 3: up up the hill and having that you know, it's
Speaker 3: just such a gargantuane, you know, like feature that goes
Speaker 3: through at that ridge that you tee off over.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I agree.
Speaker 3: It's it's like in every other whole course in a
Speaker 3: way where like you know, like it has like these
Speaker 3: like just absolutely spectacular holes, and then there's some holes
Speaker 3: that you know aren't spectacular, but they're still very good.
Speaker 5: There.
Speaker 1: There's usually at least one thing, a couple of things
Speaker 1: about each hole, even the less memorable ones where when
Speaker 1: you play it a second, a third time, you discover
Speaker 1: it and you say to yourself, that's really clever or
Speaker 1: that's really fun. Okay, So that's band in trails. We
Speaker 1: should probably start wrapping this up as a kind of
Speaker 1: closing thought. Is something that I think is remarkable about
Speaker 1: the history of this course and kind of how the
Speaker 1: idea developed as it got designed, is that there was
Speaker 1: a time when they were working with this property at
Speaker 1: the very beginning, when Mike Kaiser and Kemper Sports, which
Speaker 1: manages the manages the resort. We're thinking that Bandon Trails
Speaker 1: might be the first course where they would introduce golf carts.
Speaker 1: They were considering that because you can see why, it's
Speaker 1: a pretty extreme property. It's a tough walk, it's spread out,
Speaker 1: and so they were considering maybe offering golf carts for
Speaker 1: this course. They ultimately chose not to, and I think
Speaker 1: that that was such a great decision because this course
Speaker 1: is really a tribute to the beauties and the wonders
Speaker 1: of walking. It's everything that's wonderful about taking a walk,
Speaker 1: or you could even call it a hike, the things
Speaker 1: that you discover along the way. This is something that
Speaker 1: Bill Corr talks about all the time. You know, he
Speaker 1: and Ben Crenshaw are all about walking. They walk everywhere
Speaker 1: when they are exploring a site. They don't take their vehicles.
Speaker 1: They walk and look and talk and walk and look
Speaker 1: and talk. And this course, more than just about any other,
Speaker 1: I think brings forward that part of golf.
Speaker 3: Yeah, golf carts would have really taken away from just
Speaker 2: The whole journey.