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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, what's going on?

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Speaker 1: Well? In October, you and I are going on the

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Speaker 1: Ultimate Trip. I've been promising you this for years now,

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Speaker 1: and I'd like to say we're hitting the road, but

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Speaker 1: we're actually hitting the ocean with this, you know, Virgin

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Speaker 1: True Crime Voyages trip that we're going to be taking.

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Speaker 2: No, I'm excited. I'm looking forward to it.

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Speaker 1: Now, what pairs well with seafood? And I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: whiskey is going to be the answer. What do you

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Speaker 1: think about that?

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Speaker 2: You know, I think with seafood. I probably could just

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Speaker 2: do a red wine, you know, versus a bourbon. Might

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Speaker 2: surprise you with that.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna cheat on bourbon, that's what you're telling me.

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Speaker 2: I just might.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm gonna really do some research and figure out

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Speaker 1: what kind of cider we'll go with the outstanding food

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Speaker 1: that I know we're going to get on this Virgin trip.

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited. I've never done a cruise before.

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Speaker 2: I know, you know, it should be fun, it should

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Speaker 2: be a.

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Speaker 1: Great time, and I'm really looking forward to hanging out

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Speaker 1: with you more in person.

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Speaker 2: All the details in booking at Virgin Voyages dot com.

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Speaker 2: Slash true crime.

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Speaker 1: I have a question. We are going to have a

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Speaker 1: story that is involving kind of a different language, some

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Speaker 1: complicated words and a different language for me. Do you

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Speaker 1: know another language? Are you going to be at all

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Speaker 1: helpful if I tell you the language?

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Speaker 2: Oh? I took four years of French in high school

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Speaker 2: and might be able to ask you where's the bathroom?

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Speaker 1: This is French French Canadian, Okay. And the reason I

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Speaker 1: say that is I'll have to make a big apology

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Speaker 1: to our French Canadian friends. For however, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: Butcher the names of Oh yeah, but nobody feels like

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Speaker 1: nobody has a simple name in this story. I took Spanish,

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Speaker 1: and I know enough Spanish for people who actually understand

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Speaker 1: Spanish really well to sort of laugh at me when

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Speaker 1: I say things wrong. So I can get in trouble,

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Speaker 1: but I can muddle my way through some stuff. But

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Speaker 1: that's it. Now I'm a little about the French.

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Speaker 2: Why French, you know, it really was a choice between

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Speaker 2: Spanish and French. You know, people might laugh. Latin may

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Speaker 2: have still been a language that they were offering in

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Speaker 2: high school.

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Speaker 1: They do still. One of my kids is taking it.

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Speaker 1: She switched from Spanish to Latin.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So it was more of I really wasn't interested

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Speaker 2: in Spanish, even though you know, in hindsight, living in California,

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Speaker 2: that probably would have been a language that I would

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Speaker 2: have benefited from having learned. But it was just more,

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Speaker 2: you know, French just seemed like a more attractive type

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Speaker 2: of language to want to learn. And I am so poor.

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Speaker 2: I do not have the aptitude in order to do accents,

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Speaker 2: you know, like I can't imitate a thing. If I

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Speaker 2: try to imitate something, it just sounds stupid, just.

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Speaker 1: Pul holes and that's it, right.

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Speaker 2: What you're hearing is what you get. And you know,

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Speaker 2: to try to sound When I was, you know, having

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Speaker 2: to speak French in class, you know, I just butchered it.

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Speaker 2: Even today, you know, I can look at written for

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Speaker 2: you know, something in writing in French, and I can

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Speaker 2: kind of make out what it is saying.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's good. I am, as I said, not even

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Speaker 1: remotely proficient in Spanish, but I can muddle my way through.

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Speaker 1: One of our girls was bitten by dog when we

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Speaker 1: were in Costa Rica, and I managed to muddle the

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Speaker 1: little way through getting her to a doctor. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: they couldn't prove that the dog had had Raby shots

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Speaker 1: because at least where we were, it was really really

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Speaker 1: common for people to take their dogs to like cattle

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Speaker 1: cattle ranches and they would get their vaccinations there, but

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Speaker 1: they weren't given paperwork or anything. So we immediately came

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Speaker 1: back and she had the whole Raby series. Oh I know,

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Speaker 1: now they didn't do it. It was and now we're

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Speaker 1: going down a weird road away from language. But I

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Speaker 1: thought she was going to have to have it in

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Speaker 1: the wound, but the dog bitter on the lip okay

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Speaker 1: you know they did. I don't remember where they ended

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Speaker 1: up doing it, but yeah, she did all seven seven

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Speaker 1: of them.

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Speaker 2: So god, you know this, I may be way off

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Speaker 2: on this. I just had this memory of I thought

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Speaker 2: raby shots had to be done through the abdomen, which

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Speaker 2: doesn't make sense, but that's for whatever reason that's popping

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Speaker 2: into my head.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it was the last night we were there.

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Speaker 1: I actually found this wildly entertaining in a way. She

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Speaker 1: was examined by a doctor at a clinic down like

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Speaker 1: a alleyway, and the woman was amazing. The clinic was beautiful,

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Speaker 1: and the owners of the house where we were paid

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Speaker 1: for the fee, and she gave us powdered penicillin that

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Speaker 1: you mix up yourself. So I don't know if it

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Speaker 1: was a mock sicilin or what it would have been,

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Speaker 1: but we misread. She got like a double or triple dose,

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Speaker 1: and so by the time we got on the plane,

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Speaker 1: her wound was pretty good. At that point, she had

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Speaker 1: taken away I wouldn't recommend that, but she had taken

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Speaker 1: away too much. But you know, I was sort of

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Speaker 1: straddling between a little bit of Spanish and also just

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Speaker 1: the translator, you know, on my phone to be able

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Speaker 1: to get that information apart. But we are in Quebec

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Speaker 1: City for this story. We did a previous story where

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Speaker 1: I said, we've never done this mode of transportation, remember

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Speaker 1: the train story that we did with Sarah Mumford. This

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Speaker 1: is a plane, so I'm going to have a trigger

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Speaker 1: warning for people who are scared to fly. I'm not

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Speaker 1: scared to fly, but I'm wary of flying. And I

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Speaker 1: don't remember if you said you and we don't want

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Speaker 1: to get too deep into this to trigger anybody, but

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Speaker 1: I know you don't like to travel as it specifically

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Speaker 1: flying that you don't like.

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Speaker 2: No, I've become quite comfortable flying, you know. I don't

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Speaker 2: like being stuck in that tube four hours at a time.

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Speaker 2: That's really what kind of beats me up, and living

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Speaker 2: out of a suitcase. But actually, for Golden State Killer,

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Speaker 2: after DeAngelo was arrested, I flew down in the cockpit

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Speaker 2: of one of those tiny little sesnas from Sacramento to

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Speaker 2: Santa Barbara for a meeting down there, and the pilot

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Speaker 2: was great, and that plane was bounced all over the

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Speaker 2: place going down and coming back up. And ever since then,

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Speaker 2: you know, flying on these big jets it's easy, you know.

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Speaker 2: So of course you know there have been some incidents

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Speaker 2: while I've been flying where I go, Well, that was

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Speaker 2: kind of scary, but nothing too bad.

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Speaker 1: Well, a friend of mine, when I would get nervous

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Speaker 1: about turbulence, a friend of mine used to say, if

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Speaker 1: a plane can make it through World War Two with

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Speaker 1: people shooting at it and with much more rick any

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Speaker 1: designs that we have today, you're probably fine. But I

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Speaker 1: just want to warn people. This is a very plane

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Speaker 1: in the sky. Bad things happen oriented story. We've never

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Speaker 1: done one of these before, so let's get right to it.

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Speaker 1: Let's set the scene. Love love Montreal. Have you been

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Speaker 1: to Montreal before? No, we got to go, Paul. It's amazing. Really,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if there's a crime con Montreal. If

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Speaker 1: there isn't, there should be. I think I would love that.

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Speaker 1: Oh I love Montreal.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I'll suggest that you should.

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Speaker 1: Uh boy, what a city. I adore Montreal. But this

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Speaker 1: is not a great story coming out of Montreal. So

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Speaker 1: we are in very modern times, nineteen forty nine. So

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Speaker 1: there are photos, and I've asked you to preload your

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Speaker 1: desktop with those photos. I've already said that this flight

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Speaker 1: is things are not going to go well on this flight.

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Speaker 1: So this is flight oneh eight and it is originating

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Speaker 1: in Montreal and it takes off at nine am. It

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Speaker 1: ends up landing in Quebec City and it's now ten

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Speaker 1: twenty five. This is September ninth, nineteen forty nine, and

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Speaker 1: this is a Douglas DC three Dakota CF dash CUA,

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Speaker 1: which is an all aluminum propeller driven airplane. I've described

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Speaker 1: as the workhorse of Second World War. Isn't that funny?

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Speaker 1: I was just bringing that up. And it's operated by

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Speaker 1: Canadian Pacific Airlines at this airport in Quebec City. In

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Speaker 1: a minute, I'll show you the plane and just as normal,

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Speaker 1: you know, so you can just see what it looks like.

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Speaker 1: But let me get through a little bit of this.

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Speaker 1: So I said, things are not going to go well here.

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Speaker 1: But just for the record, great weather, it's about sixty degrees,

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Speaker 1: no problems out there, great visibility. There are four crew

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Speaker 1: members on board and there are fifteen passengers, so we've

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Speaker 1: got a total of nineteen people on board this little plane.

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Speaker 1: So it went from Montreal to Quebec City and then

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Speaker 1: there are two more, well, there's one more stopover en

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Speaker 1: route to get to here's my first French word to

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Speaker 1: the final destination of Setiel, which is seven Islands, and

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Speaker 1: it's a fishing village approximately three hundred miles away. So

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Speaker 1: it sounds like this is a little commuter plane sort of.

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Speaker 1: So it's scheduled to take off at ten twenty, but

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Speaker 1: there's a five minute delay. And when it takes off,

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Speaker 1: it heads eastward along the wide Saint Lawrence River, which

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Speaker 1: I know is beautiful. So now let's go ahead and

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Speaker 1: look at the plane real quick. So open up your

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Speaker 1: PDF that I sent you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the picture of a prop plane, I mean the

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Speaker 2: fact that it only has fifteen passengers, so it is

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Speaker 2: a small I mean it has four propellers. It looks

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Speaker 2: like but I can tell it's a smaller plane for sure.

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Speaker 2: It's like the regional jets that I fly all the

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Speaker 2: time when I hop up from Colorado Springs to the

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Speaker 2: Denver Airport. So it's probably about the same size. It

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Speaker 2: looks like it probably holds more than fifteen passengers, but

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Speaker 2: it's still it's small.

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Speaker 1: So this plane takes off with nineteen people left Montreal

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Speaker 1: at nine. It lands, presumably about an hour later in

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Speaker 1: Quebec city and it's supposed to take off at ten

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Speaker 1: twenty Instead it takes off at ten twenty five to

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Speaker 1: go to this little fishing village. There's an explosion and

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Speaker 1: it's a blast, like a heavy noise like a bomb

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Speaker 1: the way it's described, and it's audible to fishermen and

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Speaker 1: railway workers in a little village about forty miles away.

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Speaker 1: And let me describe what it looks like. When they

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Speaker 1: look up, they look into the sky and they see

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Speaker 1: white smoke billowing from the forward fuselage on the port

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Speaker 1: on the left side of the plane. The plane veers

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Speaker 1: to the north, which means it kind of lurches to

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Speaker 1: the left, and then it plummets straight down from an

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Speaker 1: altitude of about five hundred feet, which you know Elson,

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Speaker 1: the researcher who did this great job. It's a low

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Speaker 1: estimate because the plane is about fifty miles from takeoff,

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Speaker 1: so it could have been higher, but they're saying an

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Speaker 1: estimate of five hundred and it crashes into some highly

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Speaker 1: forested cliffs. One witness describes debris of all kinds, like

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Speaker 1: human legs and arms, heads awful falling from the aircraft

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Speaker 1: on its descent, and everybody is killed instantly. What do

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Speaker 1: you think, I mean, I assume you've never worked anything

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Speaker 1: that has to do with aviation or that kind of

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Speaker 1: a crime scene at all.

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Speaker 2: I personally have not. I think probably the biggest exposure

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Speaker 2: that I've had to anything like this was actually during

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Speaker 2: my own personal studies out of the forensic pathology books

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Speaker 2: and so I have seen, you know, multiple photographs of

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Speaker 2: what human remains look like after a plane crash, and

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Speaker 2: so I do have some familiarity with that. And then

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Speaker 2: I actually did a show, an episode for Real Life

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Speaker 2: Nightmare with that missing plane MH three seventy, which has

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Speaker 2: never been recovered. But it was interesting just and all

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Speaker 2: I was was a host. I was just like Peter Stack.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't investigating anything. But it was interesting just you know,

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Speaker 2: learning a little bit more about the kind of the

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Speaker 2: inside aspects of airports and the pilots and how planes

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Speaker 2: are flown and all the monitoring equipment. So, you know,

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Speaker 2: nineteen forty nine, obviously things were very different.

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Speaker 1: Just to kind of make sure, you know, we know

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Speaker 1: who all the players are. So there is a railway

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Speaker 1: company that is the parent company of the airline, Canadian

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Speaker 1: Pacific Railway, and there's an investigator that goes out. His

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Speaker 1: name is Zohn E. Blase. So let me also just

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Speaker 1: say that Allison opted to go with strictly the French

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Speaker 1: pronunciations because she was trying to, you know, make sure

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Speaker 1: we were all correct. So forgive her and me if

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Speaker 1: we don't. These names are not the way you all

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Speaker 1: think they should be. So the important point about this

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Speaker 1: man is that he's overseen numerous train accidents, but no

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Speaker 1: plane accidents. So here's one of the things that is

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Speaker 1: interesting about the case. If the plane had departed on time,

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Speaker 1: it would have crashed into the Saint Lawrence River, which

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Speaker 1: would have made a lot of is about to happen

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Speaker 1: almost impossible as far as a forensic investigation. But because

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Speaker 1: of that five minute delay and there was no fire,

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Speaker 1: they are able to start recovery, not of obviously the passengers,

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Speaker 1: but we do have quite a few photos of the

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Speaker 1: plane crash when we get to it. So let me

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Speaker 1: tell you about how they start trying to determine how

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Speaker 1: it crashed, why it crashed. They start eliminating the human

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Speaker 1: error part of this, or equipment failure. So tell me

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Speaker 1: if this makes sense to you. So, Paul, I know

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Speaker 1: that You're not an expert in any of this, but

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Speaker 1: you know, we can kind of think a little bit

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Speaker 1: common sense here. The tips of both propellers are bent forward,

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Speaker 1: suggesting they had been spinning when they hit the ground.

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Speaker 1: A seat on the left side of the plane in

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Speaker 1: the forward baggage section is recovered a quarter of a

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Speaker 1: mile from the crash site, and they say that something

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Speaker 1: would have that would have only happened if it had

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Speaker 1: been thrown from the plane while still in flight, which

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Speaker 1: makes sense. I mean, it's not going to crash and

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Speaker 1: then shoot a seat a quarter of a mile, right.

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Speaker 2: You know, in terms of the crash. I think that

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Speaker 2: that makes sense to me, is that that seat came

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Speaker 2: out of the plane in flight. Now that becomes significant

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Speaker 2: because of the witnesses saying they saw the explosion occur

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Speaker 2: kind of in the left fuselage I think forward part

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Speaker 2: of the fuselage, And so that now you have this seat,

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Speaker 2: and I have exposure to cases involving explosives in bombings,

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Speaker 2: you know, so now this is where you possibly have

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Speaker 2: a point of origin based on the location of this

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Speaker 2: seat as to where that explosive was, if it was

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Speaker 2: actually an explosive and not some sort of massive mechanical failure.

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Speaker 2: But I'm assuming that this is some sort of explosive

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Speaker 2: and the question is was ad in the passenger compartment

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Speaker 2: was at in the cargo hold.

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Speaker 1: Well, tell you what they find once they really really

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Speaker 1: dig into this crash site, and I'll show you photos

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Speaker 1: in just a minute of it. They are looking for

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Speaker 1: an engine malfunction, and none of the experts there say

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Speaker 1: they can find it. I mean, I think it's very

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Speaker 1: clear this was intentional, but we don't know by whom,

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Speaker 1: and we don't know how yet. They do smell dynamite.

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Speaker 1: I did not know dynamite would have a specific smell,

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Speaker 1: but the investigators all smell it once they get there.

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Speaker 2: I know what they're they're probably keying in on, you know,

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Speaker 2: but I can't say, oh, I know exactly what that is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know. I know this is above overpay

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Speaker 1: grade a little bit here, But we will get into

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Speaker 1: the human aspect of it pretty quickly. They think, based

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Speaker 1: on the explosion, that it came from the forward baggage

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Speaker 1: section known as the number one compartment on the left side,

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Speaker 1: as you had mentioned, because of the fuselage leading from

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Speaker 1: the cabin to the control room. So that seems important.

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Speaker 1: They're not saying it's in the cockpit or at the

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Speaker 1: back of the plane. It's where the passengers would have

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Speaker 1: stored their luggage. And we have in a minute a

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Speaker 1: little manifest that details all of the luggage that was

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Speaker 1: loaded onto the plane, which I didn't know they did,

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Speaker 1: but I guess they have to write because of weight.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they do that on small planes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know that, I can say for sure. I've experienced.

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Speaker 2: I was actually at the Lebanon, Vermont Airport when I

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Speaker 2: started the paperback tour for my book, and we ended

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Speaker 2: up getting on and I couldn't tell you the make

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Speaker 2: model of the plane, but it was a little too

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Speaker 2: prop plane that held six passengers. And we walked out

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Speaker 2: onto the tarmac with our suitcases, our baggage. It had

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Speaker 2: gone through TSA, had all been screened of course at

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Speaker 2: the airport, but then it's handed back to each of us.

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Speaker 2: We go out there and as we hand that baggage

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Speaker 2: to the person who loads it on the plane and

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Speaker 2: distributes the bags as well as the passengers in order

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Speaker 2: to account for weight differences. So if you have this

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Speaker 2: huge guy on one side of the plane, he's counterbalanced

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Speaker 2: with another larger passenger or whatever in order to be

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Speaker 2: able to get that plane as even as possible.

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Speaker 1: Well, okay, it's one o'clock and now news of the

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Speaker 1: crash has reached Quebec City, so there are reporters, there

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Speaker 1: are distraught family members of the crew and the passengers.

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Speaker 1: There's everybody knows the people from Quebec City and they

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Speaker 1: climb down to this site. Eventually, the investigator's cordon off

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Speaker 1: the area, so it's to not disturb what seems like

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Speaker 1: to be a crime scene at this point, but you

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Speaker 1: do have people down at this site climbing around what

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Speaker 1: could be a lot of evidence. And now is a

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Speaker 1: good time for you to look at the crash site.

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Speaker 1: So if you pull up, there are a lot of photos,

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Speaker 1: so you're probably just going to have to give an

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Speaker 1: overall summary. Well, the first thing you're going to see,

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Speaker 1: which is on page four, is a diagram of the

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Speaker 1: damage done and then a lot of photos.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so this the diagram is really showing the crashed plane,

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Speaker 2: a sketch of the crash plane from in essence the

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Speaker 2: wings back and I don't know if it's indicating that

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Speaker 2: the front part of the fuselage, like the cockpit and

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Speaker 2: the forward seats got pushed back into the rear of

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Speaker 2: the plane or if that's been completely separated from this

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Speaker 2: part of the plane. But obviously just massive.

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Speaker 1: Damage so that I think the color ones are more modern.

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Speaker 1: The wreckage must still be there. Page nine and ten

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Speaker 1: are from that time period, and you can see people

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Speaker 1: standing there looking at it, So it kind of depends

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Speaker 1: on what you want to see. First.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, obviously this plane is just devastated from this crash.

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Speaker 2: And this is where you know, from a scene perspective,

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Speaker 2: this is where you have your experts from you know,

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Speaker 2: NTSB get called in because they're the ones that are

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Speaker 2: able to take a look at this mangled mess of metal.

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Speaker 2: And I'm sure you know the human bodies that are

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Speaker 2: in there, but they know what they're looking at. Like

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Speaker 2: I look at this. If I were to go out

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Speaker 2: to a scene like this, it would be I don't

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Speaker 2: know what's what? You know, it's so just crumpled together.

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Speaker 2: And this is where they today they would recover this

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Speaker 2: plane and take it back to like a big hangar

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Speaker 2: and then lay out all these components in the position

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Speaker 2: that they would be occupying if the plane were whole,

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Speaker 2: and start looking for Okay, what what damage appears to

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Speaker 2: have been done that is not related to the actual crash.

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Speaker 2: You know, do they find let's say, let's say they

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Speaker 2: find remnants of a pipe bomb with a timer on

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Speaker 2: it or something like that. You know, that's huge, But

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Speaker 2: also do they see evidence let's say scorching on some

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Speaker 2: of these components that's not related to the crash, or

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Speaker 2: you know, other types of shrapnel that could only occur

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Speaker 2: due to the forces of an explosion. Well, that becomes

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Speaker 2: sort of very important, where now you can sample those

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Speaker 2: pieces of metal to determine what type of explosive was used,

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Speaker 2: which doesn't sound like a mystery in this case, but

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Speaker 2: it also gets into is there anything whether it be

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Speaker 2: on the explosive device itself that it has identifying marks

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Speaker 2: on it, or is that explosive device, let's say it

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Speaker 2: is contained within a passenger's bag, Well, whose bag was that?

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Speaker 2: You know? So that's part of what my understanding of

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Speaker 2: this process would be, you know. And then now that's

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Speaker 2: when you really are getting into the physical evidence of

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Speaker 2: in essence of homicide investigation. But you have to have

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Speaker 2: those experts who know what they're looking at. That's just

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Speaker 2: like if I go into a fire scene and the

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Speaker 2: house has been completely burned down. He's an arson investigator.

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Speaker 2: I need a State Fire Marshal agent out there because

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Speaker 2: they know what they're looking at.

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Speaker 1: I don't well, and I don't think they're able to

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Speaker 1: recover any of the luggage or the items that were

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Speaker 1: brought on board. They're barely able to recover any of

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Speaker 1: the bodies. So you're right. I mean, it is one

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Speaker 1: massive mess. So let me tell you what they do,

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Speaker 1: and then you know, we'll move forward because that manifest

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Speaker 1: I told you about becomes really important. The coroner's office

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Speaker 1: receives what's left of the bodies, what they're able to recover,

401
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 1: and what he looks for. What they actually several corners

402
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,120
Speaker 1: do this. What they're looking for is the possibility of

403
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Speaker 1: eliminating a freak explosion caused by you know, a mixture

404
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Speaker 1: of co and air carbon monoxide. And they look for

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Speaker 1: carbon monoxide in the victim's blood and they can't find

406
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Speaker 1: any in anyone. So they're systematically trying to eliminate things.

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Speaker 1: So this happened on the ninth September or fourteenth. The

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Speaker 1: coroner's jury says the victim's deaths were accidental due to

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Speaker 1: an explosion of undetermined origin. There's one body missing. They

410
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Speaker 1: end up finding him. His name is Henri Bouchard. They

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Speaker 1: find him seven days after the explosion. A search party

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Speaker 1: finds him three hundred feet from the wreckage. When the

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Speaker 1: listeners and the viewers see these photos, it is very,

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Speaker 1: very dense, and so I can see how it would

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Speaker 1: be difficult for any kind of recovery. We talked about

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Speaker 1: a train with a murder and how it can cover

417
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Speaker 1: up murder versus suicide versus accident, and in this plane

418
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Speaker 1: crash is just a mess for investigators.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it sounds like Henry must have been in

420
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Speaker 2: the seat that was found four hundred feet away, and

421
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Speaker 2: so he's blown out of the plane. Now, you mentioned

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Speaker 2: that the explosion occurred in essence the cargo hold where

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Speaker 2: the baggage was, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, says let me tell you specifically. I just want

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Speaker 1: to make sure the wreckage indicates the explosion came from

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Speaker 1: the forward baggage section, which is known as number one

427
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Speaker 1: on the left side.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like it's it's the section that would be

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Speaker 2: underneath the passenger area, and so the explosive and I'm

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Speaker 2: just going to call it an explosive device right now

431
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 2: sounds like it was situated underneath where Henry was seated. Now,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't mean that Henry is the one responsible for

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Speaker 2: the explosion. He just happened to be the poor guy

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Speaker 2: that is on top of that device.

435
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 1: Okay, so now we're going to try to figure out

436
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,639
Speaker 1: who brought on this device. Now that they're pretty sure

437
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,160
Speaker 1: that somebody, a passenger or somebody and the crew brought

438
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: on this device, we need to figure out who did it. So,

439
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: because the explosion, you know, is believed to have come

440
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: from the baggage compartment for the passengers, they start looking

441
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 1: through the plane's car manifest for clues. Thank goodness, we

442
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 1: have this manifest. The items from that compartment at takeoff

443
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 1: included three suitcases, two typewriters, three Air Express packages containing

444
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: automobile parts, some laingerie, and a twenty five pound parcel

445
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: marked fragile. And it has the names of the sender

446
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: and the receiver on the tags. And when the investigators

447
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 1: try to figure out who these people are, it turns

448
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,919
Speaker 1: out that the names on the tags are of real people,

449
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,640
Speaker 1: but they don't know each other, and it just it's

450
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 1: almost like they got pulled out of air and happened

451
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 1: to have two people that are not related to this

452
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 1: case at all. And this is what we call a clue,

453
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: is that it okay, good, so twenty five pound parcel

454
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,199
Speaker 1: and let's just assume it's twenty five pounds worth of

455
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: at least of dynamite that goes on if this is

456
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 1: our thing, but they can't recover it.

457
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that seems like a lot of dynamite. You know,

458
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 2: maybe there's other components to this device instead of it

459
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 2: just being straight dynamite, you know, what is causing they're

460
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 2: probably having to figure out, Okay, we've got dynamite, how

461
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 2: does this get ignited? Is there a triggering device of

462
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 2: some sort that causes that dynamite to go off? Either

463
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 2: it's timed, you know, or I don't think in nineteen

464
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 2: forty nine would be sophisticated enough to once the plane

465
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 2: reached a certain elevation that it would go off. So

466
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 2: it's got to be on a timer, I would think.

467
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would think so too. And you know, we'll

468
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 1: get some more evidence later from American Sherlock. The train

469
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: robbery that actually wasn't a robbery because they were so

470
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 1: inept at using dynamite. These train robbers put it in

471
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: the wrong place and didn't use enough, and so they

472
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: damaged the wrong part of the train and set on

473
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 1: fire the things they were trying to steal, which was

474
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: the mail. And it was a detonator, you know, it

475
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: just like they threw the dynamite on and there was

476
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: a cord and then they detonated it and it didn't

477
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: do anything productive except kill some people. And so that

478
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: taught me dynamites about that easy to use. So it'll

479
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 1: be interesting to see how this happened and whether or

480
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 1: not on Rey Paul, who was sitting in that seat,

481
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:19,120
Speaker 1: is involved.

482
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 2: Well, you know, for an offender to use an explosive device, generally,

483
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 2: I would suggest that they've got some experience with the device,

484
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,360
Speaker 2: with utilizing explosives, you know, And I have seen pictures

485
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,360
Speaker 2: of bombers that have accidentally blown themselves up before they

486
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,719
Speaker 2: intended to use the bomb. Yeah, part of the problem

487
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 2: of using explosives.

488
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 1: Okay, they go back to the airport at Quebec City

489
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,120
Speaker 1: and they talked to a baggage clerk because somebody has

490
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: to put this twenty five pound package on the plane.

491
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: And the clerk says, I took the package from a

492
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: woman in her forties with dark brown hair, who had

493
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: delivered the package shortly before the flight was scheduled to depart.

494
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 1: She had hopped out of a taxi. The taxi waited

495
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: and she hopped back in the taxi. The taxi took off.

496
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 1: So now the investigator is looking at the taxi records

497
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,679
Speaker 1: and he finds the driver, and the driver remembers her

498
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 1: very well. He said he picked her up at eight fifteen.

499
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,199
Speaker 1: He took her to the airport and dropped her off

500
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: at a fancy hotel. And he doesn't know her name.

501
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 1: But the investigator says, well, if she's a local, then

502
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 1: maybe the police might know her. And they're not finding

503
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: any luck there with this person being a local in

504
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: Quebec City. So they are looking at the different passengers backgrounds.

505
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: There are three corporate guys who are on the plane

506
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: who they wonder if this is some sort of business

507
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: deal going wrong or what's happening. As they're investigating them,

508
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: they're looking at anybody who has a connection who has

509
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 1: either themselves a criminal background or they're connected to somebody

510
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: with a criminal background. They run across a woman who

511
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: was a passenger. Her name was Rita Gway, she's twenty nine.

512
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 1: She was a wife and a mother of a four

513
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 1: year old girl. And they look into her husband, whose

514
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: name is Albert Gway, and they look into him because

515
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: he had just been arrested a couple of weeks earlier,

516
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: and he was one of those family members who showed

517
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: up at the crime scene asap, you know, kind of

518
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: been mourning and trying to figure out what was happening.

519
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: Do you want to talk about the brown haired woman

520
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: or do you want to talk about the way that

521
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,719
Speaker 1: they're approaching the passenger list to try to figure out

522
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: what happened?

523
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 2: You know, I think this is where now they are

524
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 2: conducting a bona fide homicide investigation, and so this is

525
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 2: where they're trying to figure out why was this plane targeted?

526
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 2: You know, you could have a random act of violence, right,

527
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 2: that's that's a possibility, but they're looking into, Okay, there

528
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 2: is somebody on this plane that the offender wanted dead

529
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 2: and didn't care that they're going to take out other people.

530
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 2: So who is that person? Based on you know, assessing

531
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 2: the victimology of all the passengers on this plane and

532
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 2: you have to count the crew as well, what stands

533
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 2: out and is there somebody that kind of rises above

534
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 2: others as possibly being a target to be killed. And

535
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 2: so it sounds like they focused in on Rita and yeah,

536
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 2: you know, Rita is the one that is killed amongst

537
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 2: the passengers. Alberta is the one that he has. He

538
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 2: was recently arrested, you know, So what is he arrested for.

539
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 2: Could he be the one that is spearheading the efforts

540
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 2: to have Rita killed? Or did Albert Let's say he

541
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 2: had an an affair and now maybe this dark haired

542
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 2: woman if somebody had an affair with and she wants

543
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,959
Speaker 2: the wife dead, or you know, some sort of lover's

544
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 2: triangle type of scenario.

545
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 1: Well, there you go, ding ding, he was having an affair.

546
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: So let me tell you what the arrest was for.

547
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,719
Speaker 1: And then before you kind of get into that and

548
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 1: we really start heading down the Albert road, I'll ask

549
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: you a different question. So they look into albert A.

550
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: Few weeks ago the police had arrested him. He's thirty one.

551
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: He was arrested for the attempted assault physical assault on

552
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 1: a nineteen year old waitress who he had been having

553
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: an affair with for two years. Her name is Marie

554
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: ange Robataya. And as I said, they had been having

555
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: an affair for two years. It's complicated their relationship. But

556
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: before we talk about that, so there are details about

557
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: the alleged assault. If this is Albert, what is the

558
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: mindset of somebody who is trying to pull this off?

559
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: I mean, this is diabolical, and I don't think I've

560
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: ever used that word on this show before. To take

561
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: down the entire plane, not be there to kill one person.

562
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 2: Well, it's definitely showing just a massive disregard for human life,

563
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 2: you know. It is like, in my experience, I think

564
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 2: this is very unusual, you know, for an offender to

565
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 2: take something to such an extreme versus being much more

566
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 2: targeted and going after the person he wants to have killed.

567
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 2: So I think it does, you know, speak to the psychology.

568
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 2: Let's say Albert is one behind this, and I'm not

569
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 2: convinced of that just yet, but assuming that, let's say

570
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 2: Albert is one, then it speaks to his pathology. He

571
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 2: definitely has in essence, you could say there's an absolute

572
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 2: lack of empathy for all the innocence. He is so

573
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 2: self centered to meet his goal of getting rid of

574
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 2: Rita that he's willing to kill eighteen other people.

575
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: You know, and this isn't the perfect analogy, but I

576
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: was thinking about the various murders that happened during well,

577
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 1: Katrina was one, but during September eleventh, where people were

578
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 1: murdered and that family members were you know, the person

579
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: who did the killing, a husband or a wife were

580
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: able to say, well, this person was actually in the

581
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: you know, one of the towers. Yeah. And so what

582
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: I was thinking with Albert is I wonder if he

583
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: was thinking, the plane goes down, my wife is dead,

584
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: which is what I want. Inevitably, there has to be

585
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: some kind of a lawsuit that's going to go against

586
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: you know, the airliner. So I just that's what if

587
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: I were him, I'd be thinking, great, I get to

588
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 1: score several different times. My wife's gone. You know, maybe

589
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: I can get this girlfriend back on track with me.

590
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: And there's probably going to be some kind payout. I

591
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: don't know if it's life insurance on RITA, but maybe

592
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: there'll be even some kind of big payout, and he

593
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: gets attention, you know, sympathy.

594
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,320
Speaker 2: I think, you know, you've got a theory that is

595
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 2: very sound on that that could be one possibility. And

596
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 2: you know, he's he's covering up because if something bad

597
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 2: happens to Rita, he's naturally a suspect. He could potentially

598
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 2: be utilizing a plane crash to really you know, just

599
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 2: kind of diffuse any suspicion on him as I, you know,

600
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 2: kind of ponder things. Now we have Marie. She's only

601
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 2: nineteen years old. You know, he's physically assaulted her. Now

602
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 2: what happened? You know? Was this something where she's breaking

603
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 2: it off because he's married, you know, And so now

604
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 2: he goes, well, I got to get rid of Rita

605
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 2: so I can continue having a relationship with with Marie.

606
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,720
Speaker 2: Does Marie match the description of the dark haired woman?

607
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 2: But you said the dark haired woman was somebody in

608
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 2: her forties Yep, So now you could have where you

609
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 2: could have Marie's mom or somebody that's very close to

610
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 2: Marie going, oh, this piece of shit, Albert he physically

611
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 2: assaulted our daughter or my friend or whatever. I'm going

612
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 2: to go after his wife. Yep. That's kind of in

613
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 2: an indirect way to go after Albert. I think I'm

614
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 2: more partial to Alberta somehow convincing either through money or

615
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 2: whatever else to be able to get the explosives into

616
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 2: the airport and onto the plane that Rita's a passenger on.

617
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,879
Speaker 2: Albert is the one that seemingly right now benefits from

618
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 2: Rita's death.

619
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: Let's get into the backstory so you understand the dynamics.

620
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 1: So this one is less forensicly and a lot more psychology,

621
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 1: I think, but let's see. And I also, of course,

622
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: I always want to know what you think about what

623
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,959
Speaker 1: the investigators are doing here. Marie had met Albert during

624
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: one of his business trips to Quebec's city, so she

625
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: lives in Quebec City. He lives in a smaller area

626
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: with his wife, and he has a four year old daughter.

627
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: Albert was a door to door jewelry and watch salesman.

628
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: I forgot we even had those guys. I mean, I

629
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 1: remember vacuum cleaners and encyclopedias and stuff. But he would

630
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 1: carry around rings and watches, I know which I think

631
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 1: Marie was impressed with, and he kind of drew her

632
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 1: in by giving her a ring. But her friends, everybody

633
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: says that they've always had a really difficult relationship, tumultuous.

634
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: So she was seventeen when they started, and he was

635
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: twenty nine gross in nineteen forty eight, despite the fact

636
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: that they were on again, off again in nineteen forty eight,

637
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 1: so this was a year before the crash. Albert moves

638
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 1: the family, Rita and the daughter moves everything to Quebec

639
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: City to be closer to Marie. So this sounds sort

640
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: of obsessiony a little bit to me. And I don't

641
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: know where the male mind would go where he thinks

642
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 1: this is going to go. Is he going to be

643
00:36:57,800 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: able to do this for Abban? I don't know what

644
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: why he thinks this is a good idea. It's already

645
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: lasted a year. He hasn't been caught yet.

646
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 2: Sure, but he's wanting to have sex with Marie more

647
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 2: often than what he can from traveling.

648
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: That's the male mind, Okay, I got it, Albert. Okay.

649
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 1: So because he moves the whole operation, including his family,

650
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: to Quebec City, he gets busted and Rita figures out

651
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 1: what happens, and this dooms relationship with both women. So

652
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,399
Speaker 1: at the time of the assault on Marie in late

653
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: nineteen forty nine, Rita had taken the daughter and moved

654
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,879
Speaker 1: in with her mom, who lived in Quebec City, and

655
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: Marie had said, go kick rocks. I don't want to

656
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 1: have anything to do with you, loser, And so he

657
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: is going off the deep end, which is the scientific term,

658
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: and he is stalking Marie, and he's threatening her with

659
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 1: a gun. I want you to come back with me

660
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: right now, he said. If she didn't come with him.

661
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,040
Speaker 1: At one point during this assault, he said that he

662
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 1: he would take his own life and probably take hers too,

663
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 1: is what he said. And there was a previous incident

664
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: that happened earlier that year, so they would have only

665
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 1: been together about a year and some change before this

666
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 1: thing happens. She tried to leave him. He followed her

667
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: to the train station and demanded that she go back

668
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: with him to her apartment to ensure she wouldn't try

669
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,320
Speaker 1: to escape the apartment. Once they got back there, because

670
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: she was scared, he burned her gloves and he slept

671
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: in her coat because you know, he was trying to

672
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: delusionally try to get her to stay. And then this

673
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: is the really alarming part to me. The next day,

674
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 1: he really doesn't want her to leave the apartment, so

675
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: he bites her on the face because she wouldn't want

676
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 1: to explain, you know, nineteen forty nine, how are you

677
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 1: going to explain that? But again, Marie is alive and

678
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 1: Rita's dead. What Rita did was take the kid and leave.

679
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 1: So I still don't understand why he's targeting Rita and

680
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: not Marie.

681
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 2: Male mind, Paul, Well, no, this is I think where

682
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 2: you're getting into, as you mentioned before, the psychology of Albert.

683
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 2: You know, so you're talking about how he's confronting Marie

684
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 2: with a gun and saying you need to get back

685
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 2: together with me. That is what DiAngelo did to his

686
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 2: ex fiancee, Bonnie DiAngelo, the Golden State Killer. So think

687
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:27,320
Speaker 2: about that type of behavior. He has this pathological obsession

688
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 2: with Marie. Albert has this obsession. She's in essence, his

689
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 2: relationship is done. He's also lost the relationship with Rita.

690
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 2: Now he may blame Rita for losing the relationship with Marie,

691
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 2: you know. So that's why he's targeting to get rid

692
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 2: of Rita, you know, and there may be additional you

693
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 2: know that you've got sounds like several years of marriage

694
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 2: to Rita, and there may be other perceived slights if

695
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 2: you will, you know, every couple has, you know, disagreements

696
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,800
Speaker 2: and arguments and things could stacked up in Albert's mind.

697
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 2: But I think fundamentally, the loss of Marie is is

698
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 2: huge to Albert. He is turning into a stalker. So

699
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 2: that shows a level of obsession. It shows that he's

700
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 2: willing to commit violence, even violence on this person. He's obsessed.

701
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 2: He's biting her face and he's utilizing that violence in

702
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,799
Speaker 2: order to try to contain her and control her. You know.

703
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 2: And when you mentioned that, I had this vision of

704
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 2: Hannibal Lecter in silence of the lamb and his mouth

705
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 2: going against you know, the one of the security guard's face. Yeah,

706
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 2: it's very apparent at this point that Albert is the

707
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 2: one responsible for the planting of the explosive on the plane.

708
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,320
Speaker 2: He's physically not the one who put it on the plane,

709
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 2: nor is he physically the one that physically got it

710
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 2: to the airport. So we need to figure out who

711
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 2: this forty year old woman is. You know, she could

712
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 2: have just been a patsy, maybe a family friend staying

713
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 2: at a fancy hotel. And Albert just says, hey, I

714
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 2: need to get this shipped, you know, and blah blah blah.

715
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 2: What the scenario.

716
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: Well, now we're gonna have to figure that out. Because

717
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: Marie is helpful. The police go to her and they say,

718
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 1: you know what happened to his wife? And the baggage

719
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: clerk says that there was a dark haired woman in

720
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 1: her forties. Do you know who this person is? And

721
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 1: she says yes, I think it is a woman named

722
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 1: Marguerite Petra and she's known around town. This is probably

723
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,720
Speaker 1: the funniest I can be here in this episode as

724
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 1: Madame le Corbo, which is Madame Raven because she always

725
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: wore black. So she had a bad reputation, and I

726
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: mean bad as in she wasn't murdering people, but she

727
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 1: was doing all sorts of illegal activity slash legal activity.

728
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 1: I did not see sex work anywhere in there, but

729
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: you know, kind of gambling stuff. She's a shady character.

730
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: So Marie was one of Marguerite's tenants after Marie's parents

731
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 1: kicked her out for sleeping with the mayor. Marguerite and

732
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 1: Albert have known each other for a while. She has

733
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: kind of a boarding house, and Albert says, I'm so

734
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 1: sorry that happened. Let me help you. I'll pay for

735
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: the rent, move in with my friend at her boarding

736
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:18,760
Speaker 1: house Marguerite. So now it's a few weeks Paul after

737
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 1: the plane crash and they're looking into, you know, this

738
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: mysterious woman. So they're talking to all sorts of witnesses

739
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: and they are trying to figure out if there was

740
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: an interaction that somebody can attest to between Marguerite and Albert.

741
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,760
Speaker 1: The witnesses say that about September nineteenth, which was twelve

742
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 1: days after the explosion, Albert shows up at Marguerite's apartment

743
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 1: and says, you're going to take full responsibility for this

744
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 1: plane crash, and then you're going to take your own life.

745
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,720
Speaker 1: So this is, you know, a surprise to Marguerite. She says,

746
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: hell no. And the word from these witnesses is that

747
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: she checked herself into a hospital with quote old abdominal

748
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 1: ailment and she's been there ever since. So she freaked out,

749
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: obviously and was looking for some kind of protection. They

750
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 1: do not go to this hospital. They wait for her

751
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 1: to come home, which is about September twenty third, so

752
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 1: it must have been within a couple of days. When

753
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 1: she gets to the apartment, the police are there. She says, yes,

754
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,879
Speaker 1: I transported this package from the airport, but he told her.

755
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 1: Albert told her that it contained a religious statue. So far,

756
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: what are you thinking here?

757
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 2: This is.

758
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 1: I mean, you've got this kind of shady woman and

759
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 1: she's admitted to being a mule for Albert and witnesses

760
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: around her saying he's threatened her.

761
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 2: It does come down to what did she really know?

762
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 2: You know, what is her culpability in terms of getting

763
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 2: that explosive onto the plane? And then it's also you

764
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 2: know who actually manufactured this package with dynamite in it?

765
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 2: But it's obvious Albert is the one behind this, all right,

766
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 2: So he's the mastermind. And so now we have to

767
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 2: figure out was Marguerite, just like I mentioned before, a patsy,

768
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,399
Speaker 2: a mule, She had no idea what she was transporting.

769
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 2: Part of the investigation needs to figure out, Okay, what

770
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 2: kind of agreement occurred between Albert and Marguerite. What does

771
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 2: her bank account look like? You know, was there a

772
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:30,359
Speaker 2: financial transaction? Is she being paid in order to get

773
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,879
Speaker 2: this package onto the plane or whatever? You know, how

774
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 2: does Marguerite benefit? This is where there's going to be

775
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 2: the investigation into Albert, you know, and part of that

776
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 2: is now going to be searching his residence or whatever

777
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 2: locations he has access to to find the bomb making equipment.

778
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,839
Speaker 2: And today, of course we'd be looking for the explosive residues,

779
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 2: et cetera. You know, but the same thing has to

780
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 2: be occurring with Marguerite. Are they conjoined so much? Is

781
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 2: that relationship so much closer than what they're realizing? And

782
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 2: you know, could she be, you know, not just an accessory,

783
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 2: but actually fully involved with the homicides of was it

784
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:18,280
Speaker 2: nineteen people? Eighteen people?

785
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 1: Nineteen?

786
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 2: There would be strategic steps that have to be done

787
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 2: in order to kind of tease this out. I think

788
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 2: it's a little bit of a misstep to go and

789
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 2: confront Marguerite just right away without trying to fully understand

790
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 2: the relationship between her and Albert and then what she

791
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 2: really potentially knew about this package. But they've gone, and

792
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 2: in essence, Marguerite has been threatened by Albert, and in

793
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:53,320
Speaker 2: essence he's covering his ass. You know, any time you

794
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 2: hire somebody to commit a homicide, right the murder for

795
00:45:56,400 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 2: higher type of gambit, there is that big kind of

796
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 2: the trust because now you've brought somebody else in on

797
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:08,919
Speaker 2: that gambit that can undo your right to freedom. Right,

798
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 2: and so he he must have gone to Marguerite after

799
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 2: he started seeing uh oh, the investigation is now closing

800
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 2: in on him. So he must have been talked to

801
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 2: and now it's like, okay, Marguerite, you're you're a loose

802
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 2: end for my ability to continue to live life the

803
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 2: way I want to live life, you know. And so

804
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:36,959
Speaker 2: that's you know, he's recognizing he made a mistake involving Marguerite.

805
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 1: Well, hold on to your hat because there's more more involvement. Okay,

806
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,760
Speaker 1: So they need to hold her because there's not enough

807
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: of a connection. Apparently they need more. So they talked

808
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,839
Speaker 1: to the doctors and find out that she had been

809
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:56,399
Speaker 1: requesting a lot of sleeping pills. They weren't giving them

810
00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: to her. She says, yeah, I wanted more attention from

811
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: the doctors and that's why I was asking for all

812
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,880
Speaker 1: of these sleeping pills. They turned this into an attempted suicide,

813
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: which is illegal because, by the way, Quebec city is very,

814
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 1: very Catholic, so they're able to arrest her. They also

815
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 1: arrest Albert and they charge him with the murder of

816
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 1: his wife. They put a plant, an informant in his cell,

817
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 1: and the plant says that he confesses to it being

818
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 1: a crime of passion, and he also implicates both Marguerite

819
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 1: and her brother Zennero, who is also not particularly reputable.

820
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 1: He has tuberculosis, he's in a wheelchair. He is helpful

821
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:43,320
Speaker 1: though to Albert because he is a watch repair person,

822
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 1: so he can repair watches. We talked about this being

823
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 1: a timer maybe situation.

824
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 2: Well, and this is also where it depends on what

825
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 2: they were able to recover out of the plane wreckage.

826
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 2: Did they find remnants of the timing mechanism, you know?

827
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 2: And can that time mechanism, you know, the components of

828
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:06,839
Speaker 2: that timing mechanism be traced back, you know, to this

829
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:11,280
Speaker 2: watch repair person or to Albert. Is there any physical evidence,

830
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 2: like in nineteen forty nine they were doing latent prints fingerprints,

831
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 2: you know, can they get a fingerprint off of this,

832
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,799
Speaker 2: you know, timing mechanism. At this point, it sounds like

833
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:28,799
Speaker 2: we have a conspiracy between Albert, Marguerite and Zanero. It's

834
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 2: now figuring out, Okay, who did what in this conspiracy?

835
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 1: Well, let me preface this by saying, I don't know

836
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,399
Speaker 1: what they were able to recover as far as this

837
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 1: bomb goes, but they must have recovered some things because

838
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 1: they are laying out the forensic experts in the trial

839
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 1: are laying out their theory, and it's a pretty specific

840
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 1: theory about a specific bomb. So February twenty fourth, nineteen fifty,

841
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 1: so this is five months after the explosion happens. The

842
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 1: prosecutors call eighty technical and forensic experts and Albert's associates

843
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:13,760
Speaker 1: and friends, including Marie and of course the two accomplices

844
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 1: who they forced to testify. The forensic experts think that

845
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 1: this was likely a primitive time bomb, consisting of an

846
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:29,280
Speaker 1: alarm clock, a dry cell battery, a detonator, a detonating cap,

847
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:34,319
Speaker 1: and dynamite. Now, Marguerite and her brother will admit to

848
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 1: having some involvement here, but this was pretty specific, so

849
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 1: I wonder, you know, their testimony points to some of

850
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 1: this also, but they must have recovered some things in

851
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 1: order to be able to put all that together, right,

852
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: A dry cell battery.

853
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's also just you have to have certain

854
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 2: components in order for this mechanism to work, you know.

855
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 2: So it's not like you have dynamite and debt cord

856
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 2: or debt nation cord. You know, you light it, you

857
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 2: throw it in this box. You're not doing that. And

858
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 2: so for this alarm clock, you know, once it gets

859
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 2: to a certain point where the alarm is triggered. It's

860
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 2: got to be closing an electrical circuit that is going

861
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 2: to be touching off the detonating device to get that

862
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 2: dynamite to blow up. So I think part of that

863
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:25,359
Speaker 2: is just you have these experts that know how these

864
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 2: mechanisms work. Now, is it possible that they actually recovered,

865
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 2: you know, parts of this alarm clock for sure? You

866
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:35,839
Speaker 2: know that because you typically we've seen in all these bombings,

867
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:38,479
Speaker 2: I've seen you know, photos, you know, and you got

868
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 2: these pieces of shrapnel from a pipe bomb, and you know,

869
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 2: and sometimes you get numbers in Oklahoma City bombing, you know,

870
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 2: you got this vehicle being blown up, and they're able

871
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 2: to trace numbers that they got off the vehicles parts

872
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 2: that have been scattered all over the place in order

873
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 2: to eventually get on to McVeigh. You know, this is

874
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 2: where I think they must have recovered enough to be

875
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 2: able to go okay. The timing device is going to

876
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 2: be the most significant Forensically, they got enough to say okay,

877
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 2: and alarm clock was used. And whether or not, you know,

878
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 2: the battery was recovered or not, who knows, But you

879
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 2: know that they know that they must have been a

880
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 2: source in order to be able to get the detonation

881
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 2: to go off.

882
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:23,880
Speaker 1: Well, here are more details. Marie takes the stand. She says,

883
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 1: I have no idea that he had this plan. I

884
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 1: can't stand him. I don't love him. And then a

885
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:34,360
Speaker 1: friend gets on the stand and Albert had said that

886
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 1: he would give this friend five hundred dollars to poison

887
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 1: his wife with cherry wine. I mean again, I always

888
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 1: I just go back to man. I mean, he's really

889
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 1: trying to get rid of Rita, but I know the

890
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 1: obsession part of it. And we'll learn a little bit

891
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 1: more about that in a minute. So Marguerite and her

892
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:55,439
Speaker 1: brothers say they are innocent. They got duped into helping him.

893
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 1: Marguerite says that she had assumed a false name and

894
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 1: purchased twenty half pound sticks of dynamite, fifteen detonating caps,

895
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:09,400
Speaker 1: and a thirty foot length of fuse at a local

896
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: hardware store. And Albert, come on, Marguerite. Albert says that

897
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 1: he's giving it to a friend of his to destroy

898
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:20,320
Speaker 1: some tree stumps, which sounds like it could destroy a

899
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:22,760
Speaker 1: whole forest of tree stumps with that amount.

900
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 2: I mean, come on, yeah, come on, Marguerite, I mean,

901
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 2: you are transporting a twenty five pound package with basically

902
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 2: false names addresses on him. You got to be clued

903
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 2: in that the stuff that you just bought at the

904
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:43,320
Speaker 2: hardware store was used to put something inside that package.

905
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know she is described as shady, somebody

906
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: whose street wise is not going to fall for any

907
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:52,320
Speaker 1: of this. His attorney gets on the stand and says,

908
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 1: by the way, two days after the plane crash, Albert

909
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,959
Speaker 1: called me and asked about how quickly we can sue

910
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 1: the airline for negligence. The next day, he had tried

911
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 1: to collect a ten thousand dollars insurance policy that he

912
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 1: had taken out on RITA for fifty cents the day

913
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 1: of the flight. I mean, come on, he took out

914
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 1: an insurance policy the day of the flight.

915
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 2: He is trying to financially benefit, and you know, again

916
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:24,439
Speaker 2: we go back to this pathology of willingness to kill

917
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 2: innocence in order to be able to get rid of Rita.

918
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:34,359
Speaker 2: He wants to financially benefit. Part of his efforts on

919
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 2: the financial benefit, maybe there was an agreement of a

920
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 2: certain level of pay to Marguerite. Marguerite's not doing this

921
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 2: just because she likes Albert. She is benefiting somehow, and

922
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 2: based off of her kind of shadiness, she's probably going,

923
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 2: you want me to do this, I need five thousand

924
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 2: dollars or whatever, you know. So Albert is going to

925
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 2: have to be able to cover that, and he may

926
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 2: not have it doesn't sound I mean, he's thirty one

927
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 2: years old, he's a watch and ring salesman, so I

928
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:14,239
Speaker 2: don't think he's exceptionally wealthy. So he may not have

929
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 2: enough money or enough cash to be able to pay

930
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 2: Marguerite upfront. Maybe he could get give her a down deposit,

931
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,640
Speaker 2: but now he needs to have the money for himself

932
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 2: for sure, but also to pay off Marguerite. And maybe

933
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:28,720
Speaker 2: he's a narrow.

934
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 1: Well let's talk about how he pays people off. So

935
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 1: the brother testifies that he used his experience repairing and

936
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 1: tuning watch mechanisms to construct this time bomb for Albert,

937
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 1: and here's what he got out of it, a ring

938
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:49,680
Speaker 1: worth eight dollars to ten dollars. He also says, oh,

939
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 1: tree stumps. This is the perfect thing for tree stumps.

940
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 1: I mean, okay, both of these people are going to

941
00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 1: pay a heavy price I think for this.

942
00:54:58,800 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, as they should.

943
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:02,960
Speaker 1: After a two and a half week long trial, and

944
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 1: after seventeen minutes of deliberation, Jerry finds Albert guilty. He

945
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 1: sentenced to death. The judge is pissed at him and says,

946
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 1: your crime is infamous. You're the worst that I've ever seen.

947
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 1: Everybody's surprised that he doesn't appeal the case, which fuels

948
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 1: the rumor that basically he has no reason to live

949
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 1: if Marie won't be with him anymore. But Paul, he

950
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 1: does write a detailed, forty page confession. If you believe him, Okay.

951
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 2: I guess what are the details in the confession? And

952
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 2: you know, okay, forty pages? I mean this sounds like

953
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 2: more of a manifesto, like Unibomber type of stuff.

954
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:52,359
Speaker 1: Kind of it provides a timeline and incriminate directs Marguerite

955
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 1: and her brother into all of this. Even more so,

956
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 1: this is what he says. He says that in nineteen

957
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:01,799
Speaker 1: forty nine, after he and Marie she kind of said

958
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:04,600
Speaker 1: I'm finished with you, he realized the only way to

959
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 1: be with her would be to marry her Catholic, you know,

960
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:11,840
Speaker 1: in Quebec City Catholic. So he either had to divorce

961
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:15,839
Speaker 1: Rita or murder her. You know, Rita is Catholic, She's

962
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:17,719
Speaker 1: not going to give him a divorce. It sounds like,

963
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 1: so he sets his sights on murdering her. Does that

964
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 1: make sense to you? Make sense to me in his

965
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 1: wacky mindset?

966
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 2: I guess no, yeah, the way he's looking at it.

967
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 2: But you know it's interesting from a I guess from

968
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:37,440
Speaker 2: a religious stance that, Okay, the only way I can

969
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 2: be with Marie is because I'm Catholic, is to marry her.

970
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:46,000
Speaker 2: So it's all right in God's eye, so to speak.

971
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 2: But I'm going to commit this mortal sin of murder

972
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:51,400
Speaker 2: on Rita in order to be able to do that.

973
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:56,879
Speaker 2: It's contradictory. And you know, I always talk about, whether

974
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 2: it be crime scene investigation to investigations, any time you

975
00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 2: see something that is contradictory, you have to pause what

976
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:09,440
Speaker 2: is going on here? And oftentimes this is where an

977
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:13,279
Speaker 2: offender is trying to you know, like when we have

978
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 2: staged crime scenes, staged circumstances in their life, they often

979
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 2: will do things that are contradictory because they're not real

980
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:25,560
Speaker 2: decisive and they don't know, let's say, how to make

981
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:28,400
Speaker 2: a crime look like something it's not. They don't have

982
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 2: that expertise, so I kind of you know this you know,

983
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,600
Speaker 2: philosophy that he's putting out there is like, Noah, he's lying.

984
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:38,920
Speaker 1: Well, I had wondered, you know, because I don't know

985
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 1: the wording, the exact wording he used. What I wondered

986
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 1: that he meant was maybe he meant Marie will only

987
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:51,640
Speaker 1: get back together with me if I'm willing to marry her,

988
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 1: because I guess she's probably Catholic too. I don't know

989
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 1: if it was a religious thing for him. I do

990
00:57:57,480 --> 00:57:59,720
Speaker 1: agree with you on that it's a stupid stance if

991
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 1: that's what it meant. That I was wondering, if because

992
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:06,200
Speaker 1: she got kicked out by her parents, that he just thought,

993
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 1: in his warped mind, well, if my wife dies in

994
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 1: a plane crash, plus he's gonna have all this money,

995
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:15,120
Speaker 1: then maybe she'll marry me because she doesn't want to

996
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:15,880
Speaker 1: be the other woman.

997
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 2: It doesn't sound like well, she may have explicitly told

998
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 2: him that, you know, and that may have been the

999
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 2: kind of preceding the physical assault that he did on her,

1000
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:29,720
Speaker 2: which you would think at that point. Now, Marie doesn't

1001
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:32,080
Speaker 2: matter if you're if Rita's dead or not, Marie's not

1002
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 2: going to get back back with you, you know. But

1003
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 2: he still got that pathological obsession with Marie, and so

1004
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:43,439
Speaker 2: in his mind he's thinking, oh, you know, Rita's dead,

1005
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:46,640
Speaker 2: I've got all this this money, and you know, she

1006
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 2: of course will now marry me. I don't think so, Albert.

1007
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:53,440
Speaker 1: I don't think so. No, not after you bit her face.

1008
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:59,120
Speaker 1: So here's the plan, which he says was inspired by

1009
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 1: an aviation tragedy which I had not heard of before

1010
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 1: in May of forty nine, so just a few months

1011
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:09,640
Speaker 1: before his plan kicked in. This is in the Philippines,

1012
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 1: two ex convicts were hired by a woman in her

1013
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 1: lover to plant a time bomb disguised as a forty

1014
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:22,520
Speaker 1: five pound box of fish on a flight to Manila

1015
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 1: that the woman's husband was on, and everybody died, All

1016
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:29,520
Speaker 1: thirteen people died. So he read about that because it

1017
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:31,840
Speaker 1: made global headlines and said, I'm going to riff off.

1018
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 1: That sounds like a great idea. Albert offered the brother

1019
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:38,680
Speaker 1: three hundred dollars a fifty percent off discount on a

1020
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 1: ring and a car if things go to plan. But

1021
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 1: you know, the brother had said he only got a

1022
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:48,520
Speaker 1: rinky dank ring, and that was it. To Margo Reid,

1023
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 1: he offered to cancel a six hundred dollars debt that

1024
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:55,080
Speaker 1: she owed him. So let me look real quick, just

1025
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 1: because I'm always curious, six hundred dollars in nineteen forty

1026
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 1: nine would be eight grand. He was essentially canceling an

1027
01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 1: eight grand debt to her. So he said that. When

1028
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:13,000
Speaker 1: Zenero is working on the bomb, Marguerite says, let's do

1029
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 1: the taxi driver thing that I've been thinking about. There's

1030
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:18,960
Speaker 1: a taxi driver that lives in the apartment above me,

1031
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:22,800
Speaker 1: and why don't I just hire him to put the

1032
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 1: time bomb in the trunk of the car, pick up

1033
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 1: Albert and Rita and pretend that the engine is having trouble,

1034
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:31,840
Speaker 1: and when the driver and Albert get out of the

1035
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:35,840
Speaker 1: car to help, the dynamite would kill Rita, would explode

1036
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:38,680
Speaker 1: and kill Rita. So then she's suggesting bringing in a

1037
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:41,800
Speaker 1: taxi driver into all this. The idea is vetoed by

1038
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 1: the taxi driver smartly. The taxi driver's like, why am

1039
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 1: I going to blow up my own cad. That's not

1040
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 1: going to happen. So here's another intricate plan, he says,

1041
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 1: I want to repair our marriage. Let's go on vacation.

1042
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:57,440
Speaker 1: So he brings a couple of suitcases. Rita says, great,

1043
01:00:57,880 --> 01:00:59,960
Speaker 1: I really want to get back together. I don't want

1044
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:03,360
Speaker 1: our daughter to not have a father. So he says,

1045
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 1: let's go to that village I told you about Setil.

1046
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:11,560
Speaker 1: They go and fly together. They vacation in Setil, they

1047
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 1: fly back to Quebec city together, and then he says, oh,

1048
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:20,440
Speaker 1: I forgot two suitcases of jewelry. They're really really expensive.

1049
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 1: I've got work to do here. Will you fly back

1050
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:27,880
Speaker 1: and go pick up these two suitcases? And that's the flight.

1051
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 1: So on the morning of the flight, Albert and the

1052
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:36,600
Speaker 1: brother wrap the bomb in a package that Albert delivers

1053
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:40,080
Speaker 1: to Marguerite, and eventually he gets Rita over to the

1054
01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 1: plane and says goodbye to her and she boards the plane.

1055
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:46,520
Speaker 1: So that is what he says happened in the confession.

1056
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:50,480
Speaker 1: Then we've got two trials because after this confession, I

1057
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:52,840
Speaker 1: think that they were going to press charges against Marguerite

1058
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:55,479
Speaker 1: and her brother to begin with, but now they definitely are.

1059
01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:58,160
Speaker 1: Do you have anything to say about his manifesto as

1060
01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:00,080
Speaker 1: you called it before we talk about I'm going to

1061
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:01,560
Speaker 1: be real brief with their trials.

1062
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:05,920
Speaker 2: Everything he's written is adding up. I don't recall anything

1063
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 2: that you said where I was sensing he's minimizing himself

1064
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 2: in this plot. I mean, he's being you know, this

1065
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:16,960
Speaker 2: is what I did. This is the plan that These

1066
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:20,280
Speaker 2: are some of the you know, the circumstances some you know,

1067
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:22,800
Speaker 2: like that, you know, blowing Rita up in the taxiicab

1068
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 2: that end up not being done. So I'm getting a

1069
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:32,640
Speaker 2: sense that this is probably fairly truthful. And you know,

1070
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:35,800
Speaker 2: it's like, well, why is he doing this? Why is

1071
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:41,560
Speaker 2: he writing this down? And it's almost as if he

1072
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:45,840
Speaker 2: has a vendetta against Marguerite and Zanio. He just he

1073
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:50,920
Speaker 2: wants them, you know, to in essence pay for their crimes.

1074
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:53,800
Speaker 2: Now that he's in prison or is looking at the

1075
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:54,960
Speaker 2: death penalty.

1076
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:58,040
Speaker 1: Well it does seem like that. I mean, boy, they're

1077
01:02:58,040 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 1: really wrapped up in this. There are a lot of

1078
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:02,520
Speaker 1: rumors about why this was even happening, Why would the

1079
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:06,080
Speaker 1: siblings agree to do any of this, Everything from maybe

1080
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:08,480
Speaker 1: Marguerite was in love with Albert, maybe they were having

1081
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:11,400
Speaker 1: an affair, I mean, just all kinds of crazy stuff.

1082
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:15,840
Speaker 1: But it doesn't really matter because ultimately Marguerite and her

1083
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:19,120
Speaker 1: brother are found guilty of murder and both sentenced to

1084
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:22,240
Speaker 1: hang at the same time on the same day, March

1085
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 1: sixteenth of nineteen fifty one. And you know, Marguerite had

1086
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 1: done all of these things, she had intimidated witnesses, she

1087
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:32,400
Speaker 1: was charged with perjury for lying. It's just like kind

1088
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:35,920
Speaker 1: of a nightmare thing. And Albert was hanged in the

1089
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:41,240
Speaker 1: middle of their trial. So he died. And Albert, for

1090
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:43,680
Speaker 1: his part, when he walked to the gallows, he confirms

1091
01:03:43,720 --> 01:03:49,080
Speaker 1: the forensic experts were right in their conclusions, and then

1092
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 1: he infamously declares, at least I die famous. He's complicated.

1093
01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:02,800
Speaker 2: This is where you see the psychology of something like

1094
01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:06,760
Speaker 2: the school shooter, where you have these in cels, you know,

1095
01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:13,760
Speaker 2: these involuntary celibates. You know, they have an angst and

1096
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 2: when they see a school shooting and then the shooter,

1097
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:22,800
Speaker 2: the shooter's name is in the press, they go, well,

1098
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:26,960
Speaker 2: I want that attention too. You know, I have similar

1099
01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:32,760
Speaker 2: societal insults that I've experienced, and I want to die,

1100
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:37,640
Speaker 2: but I also want to have that fifteen minutes of fame.

1101
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:42,200
Speaker 2: And in many ways that's Albert is kind of doing

1102
01:04:42,240 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 2: the same saying the same thing right there as well.

1103
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:48,840
Speaker 2: At least I'll be famous, right for something horrific.

1104
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:56,880
Speaker 1: Gosh, Well, he dies and Marguerite, after some sort of delays,

1105
01:04:56,960 --> 01:05:00,840
Speaker 1: they're both convicted. She and her brother. She compairs herself

1106
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:03,880
Speaker 1: to Jesus Christ, I mean, the people in this story.

1107
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:06,920
Speaker 1: And I wondered if this was the first time in

1108
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 1: history that forensic experts got a shout out from somebody

1109
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:13,000
Speaker 1: who was literally about to be hanged up. You guys,

1110
01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 1: you did it, You got it, all right. And then

1111
01:05:15,680 --> 01:05:19,880
Speaker 1: for his part, Zin a Row the brother was hanged

1112
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:22,920
Speaker 1: in fifty two, but they hanged him in his wheelchair.

1113
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:25,800
Speaker 1: He had tuberculosis. I've never heard of that before, So

1114
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 1: they hanged him in his wheelchair because he wasn't able

1115
01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:32,200
Speaker 1: to walk at that point. And that is that Marguerite

1116
01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:36,080
Speaker 1: was the last execution of a woman in Canada nineteen

1117
01:05:36,120 --> 01:05:36,560
Speaker 1: fifty three.

1118
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:41,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, basically you have, you know, three nut jobs

1119
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:47,360
Speaker 2: that found each other. And I think we always kind

1120
01:05:47,360 --> 01:05:50,240
Speaker 2: of talk about sort of the you know something about

1121
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:54,120
Speaker 2: the story that we get out of it. Thank God

1122
01:05:54,200 --> 01:05:58,960
Speaker 2: for Marie she survived now because things could have gone

1123
01:05:59,120 --> 01:05:59,880
Speaker 2: very bad for her.

1124
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:03,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And and you know she was the one

1125
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:06,880
Speaker 1: that connected. They probably would have found Marguerite at some

1126
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:10,880
Speaker 1: point anyway, but it happened much more quickly that way,

1127
01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:14,480
Speaker 1: you know, And I just, boy, I want to it's

1128
01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:16,600
Speaker 1: so many ways. I want to believe Marguerite and her

1129
01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:19,360
Speaker 1: brother they're just sort of these stooges, But you can't

1130
01:06:19,560 --> 01:06:22,160
Speaker 1: actually admit to constructing a time bomb.

1131
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:25,920
Speaker 2: Marguerite went and bought the explosives and the detonation court.

1132
01:06:26,120 --> 01:06:32,400
Speaker 1: Come on, Yeah, this story is terrifying in the conspiracy

1133
01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:35,800
Speaker 1: and the links that this man would go to eliminate

1134
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:38,240
Speaker 1: his wife, and then on top of that of the

1135
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:41,920
Speaker 1: delusions with this young girl, and oh my gosh, what

1136
01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:44,360
Speaker 1: a mess of a story. But like I said, we

1137
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:47,200
Speaker 1: haven't been on a plane yet, Paul, so there's new

1138
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:49,480
Speaker 1: things happening all the time. We will not have a

1139
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:53,480
Speaker 1: plane next week. That I can guarantee you. I can

1140
01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:54,360
Speaker 1: never say never.

1141
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:56,960
Speaker 2: You're not going to bring up dB Cooper.

1142
01:06:57,160 --> 01:06:59,280
Speaker 1: Now this just about broke me for planes. I have

1143
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 1: to tell you this story, dB Cooper, maybe another time.

1144
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:05,840
Speaker 1: You know, this was so much kind of heavier in

1145
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:08,080
Speaker 1: the less on the forensics and more just on the

1146
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:13,520
Speaker 1: dynamics between these people, but still so interesting and lots

1147
01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:15,480
Speaker 1: of photos just like you. Like so I thought this

1148
01:07:15,520 --> 01:07:16,920
Speaker 1: would be right up your alley.

1149
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:19,680
Speaker 2: No, I think the investigators did a good job, you know,

1150
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:23,440
Speaker 2: considering the mess of the plane and the human remains

1151
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:27,160
Speaker 2: and potentially lack of forensic evidence, but they they were

1152
01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:31,959
Speaker 2: able to piece things together, you know, literally starting with victimology, right,

1153
01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:34,880
Speaker 2: this is now who on this plane would be a target?

1154
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:38,360
Speaker 1: Yep? And ultimately, you know, when you come back to

1155
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:41,480
Speaker 1: the victims, just like you said, just somebody that the

1156
01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:46,200
Speaker 1: inhumanity of killing an entire planeload of innocent people to

1157
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:50,160
Speaker 1: get to one person who herself is innocent. Also, it's

1158
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:53,760
Speaker 1: so nauseating, it's just and I wish that he had

1159
01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:58,080
Speaker 1: remorse that we were going to find remorse in that confession.

1160
01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:00,840
Speaker 1: There's no remorse in it at all, you know. And

1161
01:08:00,880 --> 01:08:03,240
Speaker 1: then he dies infamous, he's kind of given up. If

1162
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 1: Marie's lost, nothing else matters. And so not a not

1163
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:10,920
Speaker 1: a good satisfying ending for a true crime story at all.

1164
01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:14,040
Speaker 1: All the people died and they don't know what happened,

1165
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:15,400
Speaker 1: and they have no idea why.

1166
01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:19,000
Speaker 2: And Albert may be a true psychopath.

1167
01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:22,000
Speaker 1: I would say so. On that note, I will see

1168
01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:25,000
Speaker 1: you next week for a non plant, maybe non psychopath story.

1169
01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:25,639
Speaker 1: I guess we'll.

1170
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:27,439
Speaker 2: See Okay, looking forward to.

1171
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:34,479
Speaker 1: It, me too. This has been an exactly right production

1172
01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:37,800
Speaker 1: for our sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia

1173
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:41,720
Speaker 1: dot com slash Buried Bones Sources. Our senior producer is

1174
01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:42,880
Speaker 1: Alexis Emirosi.

1175
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:46,160
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1176
01:08:46,400 --> 01:08:48,680
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1177
01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:51,240
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1178
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:53,519
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1179
01:08:53,800 --> 01:08:57,960
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

1180
01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:01,519
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1181
01:09:01,680 --> 01:09:02,840
Speaker 1: buried Bones pod.

1182
01:09:03,280 --> 01:09:05,839
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1183
01:09:05,880 --> 01:09:07,880
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1184
01:09:07,880 --> 01:09:09,960
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

1185
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:14,280
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

1186
01:09:14,280 --> 01:09:16,360
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.

1187
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:20,400
Speaker 2: Listen to Buried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1188
01:09:20,479 --> 01:09:22,400
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.