Speaker 1: Hillsong, the global megachurch that has more than one hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty thousand weekly attendees, three million Instagram followers, and
Speaker 1: had several a list parishioners, is now shrouded in controversy.
Speaker 1: The church that made religion hip has faced allegations of
Speaker 1: financial and sexual abuse and fired their most high profile pastor,
Speaker 1: Karl Lentz, after his extramarital affairs were exposed. This organization
Speaker 1: that billed itself as progressive and inclusive, came under fire
Speaker 1: for its lack of acceptance of the LGBTQ community. Several
Speaker 1: reports claim that only those who hit the script were
Speaker 1: truly welcome, and their slogan of you belong came with
Speaker 1: an unwritten tagline only if you do as we say.
Speaker 1: TV series, news articles, and podcasts have done deep dives
Speaker 1: on the allegations against Hillsong. This week, there is yet
Speaker 1: another documentary highlighting Hillsong's transgressions. Joining me on Navigating Narcissism
Speaker 1: is Noaemi Yurive, who says they were duped and invalidated
Speaker 1: by Hillsong, bravely stood up to the powerful church and
Speaker 1: faced a major reckoning about their faith. This podcast should
Speaker 1: not be used as a substitute for medical or mental
Speaker 1: health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling,
Speaker 1: and or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to
Speaker 1: any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including
Speaker 1: matters discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which
Speaker 1: may be triggering to some people. The views and opinions
Speaker 1: expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals
Speaker 1: participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions
Speaker 1: of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees. So Noami,
Speaker 1: it's such a pleasure to have you here. I had
Speaker 1: the real pleasure of watching you initially in one of
Speaker 1: the Hillsong documentaries. It's really nice to meet someone who
Speaker 1: in such a brutally honest way related your experiences in Hillsong.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me, and I am
Speaker 2: ready to go on this journey with you.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I want to make sure that today we
Speaker 1: understand your whole story. So let's start at the beginning.
Speaker 1: What role did religion and faith play as you were
Speaker 1: growing up?
Speaker 2: It played, I think the only role, the only thing
Speaker 2: I knew. I was born into Christianity, more specifically, a
Speaker 2: fundamentalist Pentecostal Apostolic church. So my grandpa converted to this church.
Speaker 2: He was a spiritualist and my grandma was a medium,
Speaker 2: and they left that life for this new reality or
Speaker 2: varience of the Holy Spirit that they called. They wanted
Speaker 2: to understand this new spirit that they were encountering, so
Speaker 2: they sold everything. They gave all their money to the church,
Speaker 2: and my grandpa was a minister and later on supported
Speaker 2: the church. When they lost their pastor, he kind of
Speaker 2: became in charge for a little bit. But that caused
Speaker 2: all of his kids then to be raised in the church.
Speaker 2: So my dad, being the second to youngest, was born
Speaker 2: into it as well. And then when I came along,
Speaker 2: I was kind of like third generation going into this church.
Speaker 2: So it was a big part of who I was.
Speaker 2: I would say the only identity I had was being
Speaker 2: a Christian. They tend to do that when you grew
Speaker 2: up in church where you don't really know who you are,
Speaker 2: they kind of tell you who you are.
Speaker 3: Can you educate us a little bit?
Speaker 2: Do?
Speaker 3: I mean?
Speaker 1: What is a fundamentalist church?
Speaker 2: Fundamentalism is basically a specific form and it could be
Speaker 2: within Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, really any religious background, but
Speaker 2: more specifically within Christianity, it's when they view their Bible
Speaker 2: or their Holy Text as something more literal. They also
Speaker 2: tend to believe in end times theology there was going
Speaker 2: to be an end of times and that the Church
Speaker 2: was going to be either raptured before all the bad
Speaker 2: things happened or after all the bad things happened. So
Speaker 2: you really grew up with this mentality that you needed
Speaker 2: to be prepared for the end times, which for me
Speaker 2: as a kid was pretty traumatic, having separation anxiety from
Speaker 2: my parents, not knowing if they had been raptured or not.
Speaker 1: What was that like as a child to grow up
Speaker 1: with that kind of rigidity, structure, and inflexible belief system.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a bit of comfort in knowing where
Speaker 2: my place was in life, knowing what I could wear,
Speaker 2: what I could not wear, activities I could do what
Speaker 2: I couldn't, But it also really felt limiting for sure.
Speaker 2: Once I started to grow up and have more of
Speaker 2: a personality, I realized that I was queer. That's where
Speaker 2: I started to push the boundaries and realize that the
Speaker 2: boundaries were not very big, like it was a very
Speaker 2: small and enclosed space that I was navigating. So really
Speaker 2: it was to give you examples of things I had
Speaker 2: to navigate. I was not allowed to wear pants, so
Speaker 2: I could only wear skirts that were below the knee.
Speaker 2: My shirts I could not wear like a spaghetti strap
Speaker 2: or something. Then it had to cover my shoulders. I
Speaker 2: was not allowed to cut my hair. I wasn't allowed
Speaker 2: to wear open toe shoes. If I walked into church,
Speaker 2: I had to wear a head covering. And so that
Speaker 2: was like a pretty big thing where you saw a
Speaker 2: lot more rules for women than men. Usually for them
Speaker 2: it don't wear shorts to church, don't wear anything too tight,
Speaker 2: but that was pretty much it. They could do whatever
Speaker 2: they wanted, and often the responsibility was on the women
Speaker 2: to not have them fall, and what that means more
Speaker 2: within that church context was don't have them look at
Speaker 2: you and see you in a lustful way and kind
Speaker 2: of like think of you naked. And so it was
Speaker 2: really frustrating because it was like, Okay, my knee is
Speaker 2: gonna make them think about me naked. Okay, that's kind
Speaker 2: of disgusting.
Speaker 1: It's so interesting to hear what you have to say
Speaker 1: about As a child, there was a comfort in knowing
Speaker 1: what was expected of you, like there was no ambiguity, right.
Speaker 1: Children do well with that, as much as they might
Speaker 1: push back onto bedtime. There are rules that actually gives
Speaker 1: children a safe base. But then children turn into pubescent
Speaker 1: kids and into adolescents, and at that point they go
Speaker 1: through something called individuation. The adolescent is trying to become
Speaker 1: their own person, and that adolescence and fundamentalism seem like
Speaker 1: those two things are never going to go together because
Speaker 1: the adolescent, by definition, is trying to sort of become
Speaker 1: more autonomous, to separate a way to become their own person,
Speaker 1: and in essence, fundamentalism is saying no. And then on
Speaker 1: top of that Noami, you realized you were queer. Something
Speaker 1: you had to know was not going to be accepted
Speaker 1: in this space. When was that when you realized you
Speaker 1: were queer? And what was that process for you?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 3: Psychologically, I knew.
Speaker 2: By the time I was about four or five because
Speaker 2: I had a crush on my preschool teacher. She was cute,
Speaker 2: So I knew really early on something was different. As
Speaker 2: I started to grow. I was probably around six years
Speaker 2: old seven when my brother got married. He's the only
Speaker 2: brother I have, and I remember he brought my sister
Speaker 2: in law to our house so we can meet her.
Speaker 2: My mom was like, Oh, you're the best daughter in
Speaker 2: law I have, and she laughed and was like, well,
Speaker 2: I'm the only daughter in law you'll ever have. And
Speaker 2: so they were laughing amongst them, and I was kind
Speaker 2: of just like thinking like wait, why, Like why can't
Speaker 2: I marry a girl? Like why does it only have
Speaker 2: to be boys? And so that's when I already questioning
Speaker 2: like marriage or love within two people. And I quickly
Speaker 2: learned as I got older, because I never voiced these
Speaker 2: It was never a vocal thing that I asked my parents,
Speaker 2: But I quickly started to realize within the system that
Speaker 2: it was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, or
Speaker 2: that it was that God had created these two people
Speaker 2: because he wanted them to be complimentary and their reproductive
Speaker 2: systems fit together like a puzzle piece. So that's all
Speaker 2: the language they would use for us as kids, And
Speaker 2: for me it was a quick reminder that, oh, these
Speaker 2: two puzzle pieces don't fit together. The ways of talking
Speaker 2: about that means I can't do that, even though I
Speaker 2: have feelings for that particular puzzle piece. So it was
Speaker 2: pretty eye opening as I got older to realize that
Speaker 2: they were very, very vocal with their homophobia and their
Speaker 2: view of LGBTQ people being Some people would use language
Speaker 2: like pedophilia.
Speaker 1: This experience for anyone, anyone still sadly in the world,
Speaker 1: is that for a child, for a young person to
Speaker 1: recognize that they're queer, it's not easy.
Speaker 3: It's not easy.
Speaker 1: However, in the context that you were in knowing me,
Speaker 1: it at some level must have felt impossible. I mean,
Speaker 1: this must have been really psychologically challenging.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really was, because I came to realization that
Speaker 2: I couldn't be all of me, that I had to
Speaker 2: put on this mask in order to feel the qualifiers
Speaker 2: of what people were looking for. I like to tell
Speaker 2: my mom that the church I grew up in really
Speaker 2: taught me to be a great liar. And I felt
Speaker 2: terrible the fact that I had to have this mask
Speaker 2: on the whole time, because I was being told that
Speaker 2: that was bad.
Speaker 1: Well, what I'm hearing is that if you lived honestly
Speaker 1: and authentically to who you were, you were going to
Speaker 1: lose everybody.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I ultimately did. Once I didn't care anymore
Speaker 2: and I gave it up. And said, I don't want
Speaker 2: to do this anymore because if I continue to do this,
Speaker 2: I will not last. And a lot of young people
Speaker 2: don't last. And when I say last, it means like
Speaker 2: suicide ideation.
Speaker 1: This show is called Navigating Narcissism, and that frame is
Speaker 1: just to understand how these sorts of themes and dynamics
Speaker 1: show up, and what was being asked of you as
Speaker 1: you were coming at your own knowing who you were,
Speaker 1: recognizing you were queer. At a total level, almost everyone
Speaker 1: was being told, if you're not being exactly who we
Speaker 1: need you to be, then you're going to have to
Speaker 1: do something about that. Basically who you are, who your
Speaker 1: true self is, doesn't work. And that right there is
Speaker 1: the core of all narcissistic parenting, actually, that the child
Speaker 1: is never seen for who they are and never cherished
Speaker 1: and cultivated to grow up to be their own person
Speaker 1: and to feel that they're loved unconditionally, that their true
Speaker 1: self is a valued self. And what we know is
Speaker 1: that when that happens to a person in childhood, the
Speaker 1: vast majority of times, as that person comes into adulthood,
Speaker 1: they experience anxiety, a diminished sense of self, a lowered
Speaker 1: sense of self worth. In more severe situations, as you
Speaker 1: had intimated Miami, there might even be suicidal ideation, because
Speaker 1: basically you're told you're not good enough and so be
Speaker 1: someone else. As your childhood unfolded, at what point did
Speaker 1: you begin questioning the teachings of your church.
Speaker 2: I started questioning more when it came to science, but
Speaker 2: I saw it happen more within college when I started
Speaker 2: taking religion classes. To learn the history behind Christianity and
Speaker 2: to learn what really is Islam and to learn Judaism
Speaker 2: not from a Christian perspective, was really really different to
Speaker 2: me and was really eye opening, and that brought so
Speaker 2: many more questions, and I started to realize that all
Speaker 2: religions had very similar perspectives and very similar values. And
Speaker 2: I came to the realization that it was no longer
Speaker 2: space I could be in. So that was a big
Speaker 2: moment where I decided to end it all and leave
Speaker 2: my parents' church.
Speaker 1: So what was that moment like when you decided to
Speaker 1: leave the church that your parents were deeply embedded in
Speaker 1: and that pretty much guided your childhood.
Speaker 2: It was hard. I remember I called my mom a
Speaker 2: few weeks before I did it, and I told her,
Speaker 2: like I can't do this anymore. I can't be a
Speaker 2: part of this anymore. My dad had passed away, and
Speaker 2: I went and had a meeting with the pastor. Before
Speaker 2: I walked in, I wrote a list of things and
Speaker 2: I sat down. I pulled in my sister with me
Speaker 2: for moral support, even though I knew she probably couldn't
Speaker 2: speak in my favor and my defense because she was
Speaker 2: a leader and she would be removed from her position
Speaker 2: if she supported me in any way. I open my
Speaker 2: notebook and I start reading and I get to point
Speaker 2: number two and he quickly stops me, and he's like,
Speaker 2: I don't want to hear it. I've heard this before.
Speaker 2: This isn't anything new. He lifts up his Bible and
Speaker 2: starts like banging it in the air. It's like, you're
Speaker 2: going to go to hell and you're leaving the truth.
Speaker 2: And I don't know who twisted you, but your father
Speaker 2: would not be proud of you. So he starts using
Speaker 2: all these fear mongering tactics that I had been brought
Speaker 2: up in. He starts using my dad against me. I
Speaker 2: realized that there was no point in saying anything because
Speaker 2: I wasn't going to change his mind. So I ended
Speaker 2: up just letting him talk, and tears are rolling down
Speaker 2: my eyes because my body is realizing that there's something
Speaker 2: hard happening. So I'm just wiping them away and just
Speaker 2: sitting in it. So I ended the conversation and I said,
Speaker 2: I am not here to ask you. I'm here to
Speaker 2: inform you. I do not want to be a part
Speaker 2: of this church as a member, so please remove me
Speaker 2: from any and all lists.
Speaker 3: How old were you when that happened.
Speaker 2: I was probably like nineteen or twenty.
Speaker 1: It's so interesting to hear you describe this because you
Speaker 1: had this recognition that this is my parents' faith, not
Speaker 1: my faith. For all the reasons you had that kind
Speaker 1: of individuation. To be able to say this is not
Speaker 1: mine or these attitudes are not mine is not easy
Speaker 1: for any adolescent to do. And that you did it
Speaker 1: in such a rigid structure, it's actually quite remarkable. So
Speaker 1: I have to say to you that what you did
Speaker 1: there in a large institutional, structural setting is something that
Speaker 1: most people can't even do in their own families. Then
Speaker 1: there was that manipulation of bring and your father, which
Speaker 1: actually is quite cruel, but even more impressive to me,
Speaker 1: No Iman, was that you didn't engage, and many people
Speaker 1: might have felt compelled to clap back, yell, scream, you know,
Speaker 1: get angry, and you were very steadfast and what you
Speaker 1: wanted and agains. Like you said, your body knew something
Speaker 1: was happening, and the tears were flowing. But it's a
Speaker 1: very inspiring story to me because I think that this
Speaker 1: was a system that wanted to subjugate you and invalidate you,
Speaker 1: and you didn't want to do that.
Speaker 2: I just want to take it all in. It was
Speaker 2: a lot, it was hard. I don't share this one
Speaker 2: very often, but that following Sunday I ended up going
Speaker 2: to church with my sisters. The news had obviously spread
Speaker 2: that I had formerly left, and so during the sermon,
Speaker 2: which is a portion of a church service where the
Speaker 2: pastor or someone goes up to get a message about
Speaker 2: what God revealed to them during the week. For the church,
Speaker 2: it's usually last about an hour. He ends up saying
Speaker 2: a lot of very identifying things, saying that young people
Speaker 2: were leaving the church, and he's pointing at me the
Speaker 2: whole time, literally and looking over at me. So he
Speaker 2: starts throwing rocks with his words, and they're starting to
Speaker 2: hurt and I'm starting to feel it, and my sisters
Speaker 2: are kind of holding my hands like no, you got this,
Speaker 2: like don't listen. And after the sermon was over, usually
Speaker 2: within these churches, they'll have everyone go up to the
Speaker 2: front of the church to pray. So I remember the
Speaker 2: mom of my best friend came over to me and
Speaker 2: she stretched out her hand and was like, come and
Speaker 2: pray with me. And I was like, no, I'm okay,
Speaker 2: I'm going to pray here, sitting like no need, I
Speaker 2: don't want to, and she said, I didn't ask you,
Speaker 2: and so she grabs me pulls me to the front
Speaker 2: and all of these ministers came over, the pastor's son
Speaker 2: who was his assistant, and all of their wives started
Speaker 2: surrounding me and putting their hands on me. That's usually
Speaker 2: how people pray. They lay hands, that's what they call it.
Speaker 2: And they start praying loudly, and I start hearing what
Speaker 2: they're saying, and they're saying that I have demons within me,
Speaker 2: and that they want to release these demons, that something
Speaker 2: has a hold in me, and that God has a
Speaker 2: greater plan for you know, the typical lingo and manipulation
Speaker 2: that they used. So even within that moment again, I
Speaker 2: started crying because it was getting difficult and I didn't
Speaker 2: know what to do. But all I could say was God,
Speaker 2: forgive them, for they know not what they do. And
Speaker 2: they kind of all like looked at me and started
Speaker 2: to leave, and they stayed quiet, and I grabbed a
Speaker 2: clean nex and I cleaned my and I sat down
Speaker 2: and I was like, I don't know how much more
Speaker 2: I could take this. That moment was very, very traumatic,
Speaker 2: and a lot of what the pastor said was very
Speaker 2: traumatic because deep down I did believe what he was saying,
Speaker 2: that I was going to hell and that I was twisted.
Speaker 2: So that's where the transformation really started internally. But that's
Speaker 2: where Hillsong also creeped in within that healing process, trying
Speaker 2: to find a church that was more quote unquote liberal
Speaker 2: and more welcoming and a place where I belong.
Speaker 1: For those who are listening to this and don't know
Speaker 1: what it is, what is Hillsong.
Speaker 2: Hillsong is a church that started in Australia about thirty
Speaker 2: years ago by a New Zealander named Frank Houston and
Speaker 2: later on Brian Houston. They ended up spreading the church
Speaker 2: into all around the world. It became a global church.
Speaker 2: When a church is that big, they call it a megachurch.
Speaker 2: So they had just in New York about ten thousand
Speaker 2: people attending on a single Sunday. So it came to
Speaker 2: the US through New York and New York started in
Speaker 2: twenty ten, and then spread to Boston, which is where
Speaker 2: I ended up attending.
Speaker 1: You said in thirty years, that's not that long ago.
Speaker 1: This is very recent.
Speaker 3: Why did it grow so big so quickly?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question. So I believe it was
Speaker 2: in the eighties. That's when evangelical was kind of married
Speaker 2: to fundamentalism and Pentecostalism was starting to grow in the
Speaker 2: US as televangelism. You see the Jerry Folwells of the World,
Speaker 2: or the Robertson's Pat Robertson. There's many documentaries Tammy Fay,
Speaker 2: So all these people were starting to be very prominent.
Speaker 2: So Brian Houston comes to the US and tries to
Speaker 2: understand what was happening here and how to best approach
Speaker 2: the church and how to spread this good news in
Speaker 2: a better way. So he sees the business of church
Speaker 2: in the US and how they're doing it here, and
Speaker 2: he takes it back and transforms a local church that
Speaker 2: was steadily growing into this more fast paced business.
Speaker 1: So, okay, if a church is a megachurch, are the
Speaker 1: people who are listening and showing up giving money because
Speaker 1: I'm trying to understand the business model here, Yeah.
Speaker 2: For sure. So within the system of Hillsong and just
Speaker 2: in Christianity as a whole, the concept of tithing is very,
Speaker 2: very common, very used, I would say within ninety five
Speaker 2: percent of churches. And tithing is when they give about
Speaker 2: ten percent of their money of whatever they earned to
Speaker 2: the church so it can function to pay the pastor
Speaker 2: because often it's the only job they have, so that
Speaker 2: they can live to pay any bills that the building
Speaker 2: may have, things like that. When you have around a
Speaker 2: million people giving this ten percent, that can add up
Speaker 2: to a lot. What also tends to happen is that
Speaker 2: within Hillsong they quickly plant this idea that the church
Speaker 2: doesn't have a lot of money, and so then we
Speaker 2: need extra support. And so Hillsong had a group named
Speaker 2: Hillsong Partners, and you can become a partner if you're
Speaker 2: giving at least one dollar extra apart from what you're
Speaker 2: already giving, and this is often monthly so you get
Speaker 2: a lot of wealthy people giving extra money to be
Speaker 2: in the system of partners, and often within partners there's
Speaker 2: different levels of what it means. So if you're giving
Speaker 2: one dollar, you're in the lowest level. If you're giving
Speaker 2: one hundred dollars, maybe you go up a level. If
Speaker 2: you're giving five thousand, you're probably in the highest level
Speaker 2: of what means and you have access to more information
Speaker 2: on what the finances are happening. So that's kind of
Speaker 2: where the cultiness kind of starts.
Speaker 3: What does more money get you?
Speaker 2: They would say that you could view more of where
Speaker 2: the money was being allocated, or they had more access
Speaker 2: to the pastors. Often within your local church, you can
Speaker 2: walk into the pastor's office after the service ask questions
Speaker 2: about their sermon or just in general about how things
Speaker 2: are going or needing support. Within Hillsong, there's often security
Speaker 2: around the pastors. After the service is over or even
Speaker 2: during you can't really get to them, and so it
Speaker 2: can become difficult. But if you're a part of the
Speaker 2: partners because you're giving more money, you can have access
Speaker 2: to them and you can talk to them one on
Speaker 2: one and they'll be present. So Carl Lentz will come
Speaker 2: in and he was like the main campus pastor for
Speaker 2: all of the East Coast or your local pastor within
Speaker 2: the church. So people liked the exclusivity of how it
Speaker 2: felt for them to be a part of Hillsong Partners.
Speaker 2: And it was really interesting to see that dynamic. Someone
Speaker 2: who was a grad student here in Boston who couldn't
Speaker 2: really afford much. It was hard to see all this
Speaker 2: money just being wasted on food that was being thrown
Speaker 2: away mainly within the Partners' meetings, or like them using
Speaker 2: this money to rent out a wine cellar because that's
Speaker 2: where they wanted to have their cool meeting so they
Speaker 2: can entice more people to give more money because they
Speaker 2: have this intimate meeting with Carl where he fake cries
Speaker 2: and everyone gets emotional. So it's very interesting to see
Speaker 2: that dynamic there.
Speaker 3: So I have a couple of things to say here.
Speaker 1: When people talk to me about spaces that are supposed
Speaker 1: to be infused with God and spirituality, my personal meeting
Speaker 1: around that is that all are equal in that space,
Speaker 1: that in any healthy conception of a religion or a God,
Speaker 1: is that that's maybe the only time people could all
Speaker 1: be viewed as equal right, This sounds like you'll be
Speaker 1: paying for access. It's like Coachella, like if you spend
Speaker 1: more on your ticket, you can get closer to the people.
Speaker 1: I don't know that God was thinking that religion was
Speaker 1: supposed to be like a music festival, which is what
Speaker 1: this sounds like. It's this purchasing of exclusivity which goes
Speaker 1: in the face of all that should be I think
Speaker 1: the core personally of a healthy religion. But this also
Speaker 1: takes me to a question, Miami that I struggle with
Speaker 1: because I'm not in this world. These people are tithing
Speaker 1: ten percent, not a small amount depending on what a
Speaker 1: person's making, especially at a time when the economy is
Speaker 1: so tight whatever. Okay, so millions of dollars are coming in.
Speaker 1: We have all heard those stories of these high flying
Speaker 1: preachers having jets and rolls, royces and twenty five thousand dollars,
Speaker 1: watches and mansions. You're talking here about exclusive dinners in
Speaker 1: a wine cellar and all of that. These are people's
Speaker 1: hard earned dollars that they're giving to a church that
Speaker 1: they believe in. I'm asking this to you as a
Speaker 1: person because you can't speak for everyone. You can only
Speaker 1: answer this for yourself as a person, how do you
Speaker 1: reconcile that as a member of a religious community?
Speaker 2: Personally? It was as a child of someone who would
Speaker 2: take money to survive. My dad would receive money from
Speaker 2: the church. I saw it in a very different context
Speaker 2: when I was younger than from how I saw it
Speaker 2: at Hillsong. We didn't have a lot of money. We
Speaker 2: weren't very wealthy. My dad had to have a second job.
Speaker 2: All of my uncles did as well. It's not a
Speaker 2: business you go to to become rich. Makes sense within
Speaker 2: your local church, Yeah, the majority of the time within
Speaker 2: Hillsong is very different. And because I had this other experience,
Speaker 2: it was very frustrating. But the way that Carl Lentz
Speaker 2: was so good at doing was to talk about, or
Speaker 2: more used the phrases of why should pastors have to
Speaker 2: live in poverty? Why can't I also have good things
Speaker 2: just because I'm a pastor, I have to live in
Speaker 2: poverty or I have to live in a certain way.
Speaker 2: And so then that kind of like switches the tables
Speaker 2: on people and they're like, oh, shoot, like I'm questioning
Speaker 2: my pastor? How do I do this? So often as
Speaker 2: someone who was a volunteer I was not allowed to
Speaker 2: give water bottles to the volunteers who were working under
Speaker 2: me because those water bottles were specifically for the pastors.
Speaker 2: That was As a public health professional and as an
Speaker 2: advocate and a human rights advocate, I did not like that,
Speaker 2: and so I would just give them out, like water
Speaker 2: is a human right. I would get in trouble all
Speaker 2: the time, and I was like, I'll take the heat.
Speaker 2: I don't care. When I started kind of noticing that
Speaker 2: the pastor wanted altoids packaged in a certain way, or
Speaker 2: wanted their water bottle to be opened before ended to
Speaker 2: them because he didn't want to use his hands to
Speaker 2: open it. All these like little things that were very childish,
Speaker 2: and we're very like you're treating me like your servant
Speaker 2: kind of thing. We're very difficult to see and navigate.
Speaker 2: It is very frustrating, though, and it's funny because you
Speaker 2: can flip the Bible to say many things the way
Speaker 2: you want it. And often when I think of this
Speaker 2: of like people not being able to approach a pastor,
Speaker 2: I think of stories like the times when kids wanted
Speaker 2: to come say hi to Jesus and the disciples, which
Speaker 2: were kind of his security disciples, meaning a student or
Speaker 2: a follower, stopped them and were like, no, you can't
Speaker 2: access Jesus. And then Jesus got up and went over
Speaker 2: and was like, why are you stopping these kids from coming? Like,
Speaker 2: let the children come to me. And they went on
Speaker 2: their way, and he spoke to the disciples after and said,
Speaker 2: don't do that, Like everyone can have access to me.
Speaker 2: You can't dictate who can or cannot, especially children. And
Speaker 2: so when I see systems like Hillsong who are having
Speaker 2: security around their pastors, that for me is like where's Jesus.
Speaker 2: You're not letting the children come to you for questions
Speaker 2: like how is that Christianity? Why is it that I'm
Speaker 2: able to give a water bottle or have a water bottle?
Speaker 2: Why is it that you can wear supremes? But I'm
Speaker 2: having to like not know where my next meal was
Speaker 2: coming from. Well, I think I have many things to
Speaker 2: say about this.
Speaker 3: What I'm hearing is entitlement.
Speaker 1: Right, You've got all this money coming in, and the
Speaker 1: so called pastor the so called direct line to God
Speaker 1: as it were, is saying, well, why can't I be wealthy?
Speaker 1: Why can't I have the fancy clothing or shoe items.
Speaker 1: Why can't I have the expensive dinner? Why can't I
Speaker 1: have a nice lifestyle, to which the response would be
Speaker 1: that you shouldn't have anything other than the basics until
Speaker 1: your entire flock is covered. So hard is that to understand?
Speaker 1: To me, that basic human idea. If you're doing this
Speaker 1: in the name of faith, it's not like this is
Speaker 1: a corporation, right, That's why the CEO's in business to
Speaker 1: make money. That's their singular motivation. So no one should
Speaker 1: act surprise when the CEO does a money grab. But
Speaker 1: when a pastor rolls up and derives their power from
Speaker 1: some presumed connection to God, and then they exploit that
Speaker 1: power to take everything for themselves and then create a
Speaker 1: rationalization around that, that to me feels narcissistic because it
Speaker 1: shows no empathy to these people who are coming in
Speaker 1: good faith. Frankly, I think someone innocently they're giving their
Speaker 1: money to support an institution that matters to them, that
Speaker 1: connects them to God. This person they've anointed as believing
Speaker 1: that it speaks for God. That person has no empathy
Speaker 1: for those people, is deeply entitled, is very grandiose, is
Speaker 1: incredibly hypocritical. That list is starting to add up into
Speaker 1: that uncomfortable space of this sort of narcissistic piece. Narcissism
Speaker 1: is a personality style is usually associated with arrogance, entitlement,
Speaker 1: variable empathy, admiration seeking, and has dynamics such as manipulation
Speaker 1: and invalidation and taking advantage of or using other people. However,
Speaker 1: it also has different ways of showing up, and a
Speaker 1: type of narcissism we often don't explore is something I
Speaker 1: call self righteous narcissism and is a sort of rigid
Speaker 1: holy roller narcissism, a sort of self serving morality, using
Speaker 1: this morality to shame, judge, and invalidate other people, and
Speaker 1: wearing two masks of seeming love and acceptance if someone
Speaker 1: plays by the rules, and quick dismissal and rejection if
Speaker 1: they do not. This self righteous narcissistic style shows up
Speaker 1: in religious communities all the time, and since rule following
Speaker 1: matters so much in these spaces, folks and entire organizations
Speaker 1: with this style can psychologically harm people who may be
Speaker 1: trying to bring their true selves to their religion but
Speaker 1: are told they aren't as worthy if they don't follow
Speaker 1: the arbitrary rules. It kind of really boils my blood
Speaker 1: because if a CEO is narcissistic, I actually don't care.
Speaker 1: That's their job is to make the shareholder's profits. I
Speaker 1: cannot shop there. I certainly don't need to be the
Speaker 1: CEO's friend. But I don't feel like that's a manipulation.
Speaker 1: I don't feel that that's cruel. That person's probably going
Speaker 1: to do a better job than someone who's sort of
Speaker 1: sweet and agreeable. It's that person's job. But when you're
Speaker 1: talking about a church, and I really like that you
Speaker 1: use that fable, that parable of Jesus and the disciples.
Speaker 1: It's interesting that in a way the disciples were in
Speaker 1: some ways kind of getting some juice from being close
Speaker 1: to Jesus, right, that was giving them some sort of.
Speaker 3: Empower and entitlement.
Speaker 1: And Jesus, though, was pulling out saying no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: that's not okay.
Speaker 3: So Jesus played it right. That's how it's supposed to
Speaker 3: be done.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, these many people that are co opting that which
Speaker 1: was considered to be healing and good have really actually
Speaker 1: basically it sounds like nothing more frankly to me than
Speaker 1: a money grab. We will be right back with this conversation.
Speaker 3: Yeah for sure, Okay, So let me.
Speaker 1: Step back a minute here, because I want to understand.
Speaker 3: No, I mean, what drew you to Hillsong.
Speaker 2: So when I moved to Boston, I had already left
Speaker 2: my family's church. I was coming for grad school here
Speaker 2: to study public health, so my master's in public health.
Speaker 2: I was very excited. I wanted something a little different.
Speaker 2: I was also looking for a church that was welcoming
Speaker 2: of all people, regardless of political background, regardless of how
Speaker 2: they grew up. Like I wanted a place where everyone
Speaker 2: was welcome. And as I was searching for a church,
Speaker 2: I fell upon Hillsong And I remember as I was
Speaker 2: walking through the doors, I saw a sign that said
Speaker 2: welcome home. And when I read that, for me, it
Speaker 2: was oh wow, okay, Well, a home for me is
Speaker 2: where everyone can come in as they are, because a
Speaker 2: home is a safe space. A house is just a building,
Speaker 2: but a home is something you create. I want to
Speaker 2: be a part of the creation of this home. So yeah,
Speaker 2: like this is awesome, Like welcome home. I walk a
Speaker 2: little more and then I see another sign that says
Speaker 2: you belong and I was like, oh, okay, so me,
Speaker 2: as a brown person, I belong here. There wasn't too
Speaker 2: much diversity, but there was a few black and brown
Speaker 2: people there, so I was like, Okay, we can bring
Speaker 2: in more, Like I'm more than happy to help create
Speaker 2: this and diversify it. And it was very much geareded
Speaker 2: towards younger people because they had like lights and their
Speaker 2: production was very high quality and you can be a
Speaker 2: part of making it high quality, and they had all
Speaker 2: of these cool tools and conversations and sermons were focused
Speaker 2: on younger people. So for me it was really exciting.
Speaker 2: And Hillsong being a church that was known for their music.
Speaker 2: I had grown up hearing about Hillsong and the music
Speaker 2: that Hillsong would release within their different bands. For me,
Speaker 2: it was really cool to now be a part of
Speaker 2: the church who was developing that music that I had
Speaker 2: heard about growing up. So it was a lot of that,
Speaker 2: a lot of finding a place where I could fit
Speaker 2: in in Boston, but also a place that I thought
Speaker 2: was racially diverse and that I thought was welcoming of everyone.
Speaker 1: And you also believed not only were they going to
Speaker 1: be accepting of you as a brown person, but as
Speaker 1: a queer person.
Speaker 2: Yes, at the time, I was still questioning. I was
Speaker 2: not openly questioning yet I started doing that a year
Speaker 2: into me attending Boston. But yeah, when I saw Welcome
Speaker 2: Home You Belong, I thought it meant everyone. I didn't
Speaker 2: do research on a church because for me, like that
Speaker 2: didn't have to be something I had to think about,
Speaker 2: like a church is a safe space, or that's how
Speaker 2: I grew up thinking, like any church I attend or
Speaker 2: i'm looking for is a safe space. So why do
Speaker 2: I have to google this church? So I didn't really
Speaker 2: do the research into that.
Speaker 1: I want to ask you a question, though. Okay, here's
Speaker 1: where I'm putting psychologists hat back on here. You said,
Speaker 1: I always thought of churches as safe spaces. But yet
Speaker 1: when you approached the pastor and that church you were
Speaker 1: met with your going to hell. They were cruel to you.
Speaker 1: They were manipulative to you. So where did that constructive
Speaker 1: church as safe come from? Because the church you had
Speaker 1: just left wasn't.
Speaker 2: So when I would see the church at the time,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't identify the church I was attending as something
Speaker 2: like it wasn't a part of it. Because for me,
Speaker 2: a church like that was very fundamentalist. So to find
Speaker 2: a church that was more quote unquote welcoming a liberal
Speaker 2: was a safer place than what I had grown up in.
Speaker 1: You wanted it to be okay. You're in a new city, church,
Speaker 1: God all mattered to you, and the symbols in the
Speaker 1: space welcome home, you belong. We use on this podcast
Speaker 1: a sort of frame of what happens in these kinds
Speaker 1: of manipulative relationships is we also find ourselves wanting it
Speaker 1: to be okay. So you were betrayed by one space
Speaker 1: you were. I mean, I think it's fair to say
Speaker 1: that anyone who has been devoted and is coming into
Speaker 1: their own and you're met with you're going to hell
Speaker 1: kind of thing, that's a betrayal. And with that betrayal
Speaker 1: having happened, and now moving to a new city, you're
Speaker 1: going into this place. It's this one will be different.
Speaker 1: And that, to me is what happens to the vast
Speaker 1: majority of people. I mean, I think that that kind
Speaker 1: of hope is something that many survivors of all kinds
Speaker 1: of manipulative situations have. What were those early days of
Speaker 1: Hillsong like for you? After you walked in that door?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the early days were definitely there was so
Speaker 2: much you had to do in this quality of production
Speaker 2: that you had to put on that it took a lot.
Speaker 2: I was part of the host team at the time,
Speaker 2: and I remember I was one of the only brown
Speaker 2: people on the team, and so they would put me
Speaker 2: at the front door and they would be like, we
Speaker 2: want you to be the first person they see when
Speaker 2: they walk through the doors, and I'm like, okay, like
Speaker 2: I see what you're doing. But internally I was also
Speaker 2: like great, Like I get to be a part of
Speaker 2: how people see this church and what it could become.
Speaker 2: And if I am here as a representation that this
Speaker 2: is a safe space for black and brown people, then yeah,
Speaker 2: I want to do that. So being a host was
Speaker 2: very tiring, and I would start going home and sometimes
Speaker 2: be exhausted, fall asleep, or just cry because I was like,
Speaker 2: I don't know why I'm so tired. So I decided
Speaker 2: to switch over to another team called Events, and that's
Speaker 2: where I really started to see how the production was
Speaker 2: put on. From the run sheets that were done, from
Speaker 2: the word to word paragraphs of what pastors and anybody
Speaker 2: who was on stage had to say, the level of
Speaker 2: numbers that they had to count for people who were there,
Speaker 2: the note taking all of this data that was sent
Speaker 2: to New York to keep track of what was happening.
Speaker 2: It was a group of like three or four of
Speaker 2: us having to do all of this work, and so
Speaker 2: it was it was quite tiring, but it was also
Speaker 2: really cool to see it for at the time from
Speaker 2: that perspective, I had grown up in a church where,
Speaker 2: you know, if there wasn't a drum player, and that
Speaker 2: day and it was just a guitar, Great, We're just
Speaker 2: gonna sing with the guitar at a whole song. That was
Speaker 2: like non acceptable. It was like, wait, why are we
Speaker 2: having to put on this production? Why does it have
Speaker 2: to be this high thing? Why can't it just be church?
Speaker 2: It felt more like we were playing the game of
Speaker 2: church rather than putting on church. They would definitely pin
Speaker 2: volunteers against each other to not focus on how that
Speaker 2: pastors were treating us, because for events, we were being
Speaker 2: yelled at from the pastors for having gone over a
Speaker 2: few minutes, or because he had told us he wanted
Speaker 2: church to be an hour in thirteen minutes and we
Speaker 2: spent an hour and fifteen minutes. So we're being yelled
Speaker 2: at from them. So then we turn our direction to
Speaker 2: the creative team, which is the team who is on
Speaker 2: stage doing the singing and doing the stage management. We
Speaker 2: turned to them and start yelling at them and be like,
Speaker 2: it's your fault. You're the one who did this. You're
Speaker 2: the one who caused us to be yelled at and
Speaker 2: to get in trouble. They were like really pinning us
Speaker 2: against each other so that we wouldn't churn our face
Speaker 2: and see them and be like, wait, no, it's you
Speaker 2: that created the system and is causing us to do this.
Speaker 2: So they're really smart about it. It's really nasty when
Speaker 2: you look back and see how they did it.
Speaker 1: What they did there is the team's being turned against
Speaker 1: each other and that you were then starting to sort
Speaker 1: of call each other out and sort of launch your
Speaker 1: wrath on the other teams. It's called triangulation, and it's
Speaker 1: how people in power remain in power. They create this
Speaker 1: chaos below, so people are not facing over to where
Speaker 1: leadership is setting up an unsustainable system and so everyone
Speaker 1: is sort of scrapping and scraping over these little things.
Speaker 1: But the way the system was structured is wrong. I
Speaker 1: guess a question for me then becomes you're a volunteer,
Speaker 1: it's going you feel like you're a part of something.
Speaker 1: It seems like they're saying, we're inclusive, we want to
Speaker 1: get more racially diverse membership, all of the things that
Speaker 1: matter to you. But when did things start to change
Speaker 1: for you?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So I started taking a gender and sexuality class
Speaker 2: in grad school, and I remember we were going around
Speaker 2: the class and we were all saying our sexual orientation
Speaker 2: and gender identity. And it got to me and I
Speaker 2: was like, I don't know, I'm straight. And then they're like, okay,
Speaker 2: what's your ender identity? And I was like I don't
Speaker 2: know what that means. And they're like, okay, I guess
Speaker 2: you're sis gender and I was like sure, yeah, And
Speaker 2: then once it passed on to the next person, I
Speaker 2: was like, wait, No, that didn't feel right, that didn't
Speaker 2: sit right. And so all of these things that I
Speaker 2: had hid for so long started to come up again,
Speaker 2: and I started to learn about gender and sexuality and
Speaker 2: public health and gender firming care and what that looked
Speaker 2: like within public health. And so I started to have
Speaker 2: a safe space where I can question within academia. And
Speaker 2: then I would turn and look at my faith and
Speaker 2: be like, wait, is this a safe space for me
Speaker 2: to be in? And so then I started asking questions
Speaker 2: slowly kind of approaching it, and so I would ask like, oh,
Speaker 2: I have a gay friend and they want to come
Speaker 2: to church, would they be able to tend this church?
Speaker 2: And they'd be like, yeah, everyone's welcome, like they can
Speaker 2: come through the doors and come to our services. We
Speaker 2: would love to have them, And so be like, oh, okay, great,
Speaker 2: And then I started to ask more and be like, wait,
Speaker 2: would they be allowed to volunteer? And they'd be like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: it kind of depends on what position they're in. And
Speaker 2: so then that's where it started more of like, wait,
Speaker 2: what do you mean it depends on what position? And
Speaker 2: they'd be like, yeah, well, if it's like a host,
Speaker 2: maybe not. But if it's within like a background scene, yeah,
Speaker 2: that would be great. We would love to have them.
Speaker 2: I was asking all of these during a meeting I
Speaker 2: was having with one of my leaders, and I remember
Speaker 2: I ended the meeting saying, well, I'm the gay friend
Speaker 2: and I'm trying to have a better understanding if if
Speaker 2: I am queer, because I'm questioning and I'm starting to
Speaker 2: come into this place, would it be a safe space
Speaker 2: for me? Like is what I'm doing? Okay? And the
Speaker 2: leader kind of stayed quiet and was like, Okay, well,
Speaker 2: what you're doing is fine. You're in events, so you're
Speaker 2: not really at the front, and you're leading a connect
Speaker 2: group with someone else, So I think it's okay, Like
Speaker 2: I don't have an issue with it. And so I
Speaker 2: was like, okay, but if I were to be under
Speaker 2: someone else's leadership, would I have to ask them? Would
Speaker 2: I have to out myself to them again? Like is
Speaker 2: this going to be a constant thing I'm going to
Speaker 2: have to be doing? And she was like, yeah, well
Speaker 2: it's a case by case basis, so yeah, I kind
Speaker 2: of stay quiet, and I was like, Okay, this is
Speaker 2: going to be a bigger issue than I thought, and
Speaker 2: so I started asking myself more and more questions of
Speaker 2: what's Hillsong going to be that for me. I also
Speaker 2: decided to come out to my mom at the beginning
Speaker 2: of twenty nineteen, and the day I did it, my
Speaker 2: mom obviously didn't take it well because she was a
Speaker 2: part of this other church that was openly very homophobic
Speaker 2: and believed that gay people or and queer people were
Speaker 2: going to go to hell, and so that was what
Speaker 2: she said to me over the phone because that was
Speaker 2: the safest place I found for me to out and
Speaker 2: come out to her. And so the next day I
Speaker 2: went to my leader's home and I told her like, hey, like,
Speaker 2: I came out to my mom last night, so I'm
Speaker 2: a bit tired. I haven't really slept. And so when
Speaker 2: I get there, I walk in. She's folding laundry and
Speaker 2: she sits down and I had told her over text
Speaker 2: like I don't really want to talk about this, I'm
Speaker 2: still processing. As I'm sitting down, she says, why did
Speaker 2: you feel the need to come out to your mom?
Speaker 2: And I kind of just stare at her, and I'm like, well, like,
Speaker 2: it's a big part of my identity right now, and
Speaker 2: I want to be able to have her acceptance or
Speaker 2: at least have her know. And I don't want to
Speaker 2: be hiding anymore. I've been hiding my whole life. And
Speaker 2: she goes on to say, well, isn't identity elusive? And
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, well it can be, but like no, like,
Speaker 2: this is who you are. And then she's like, well,
Speaker 2: shouldn't your identity be centered in God? Like shouldn't you
Speaker 2: identify as a child of God? First? And so then
Speaker 2: I look at her as a black woman and I
Speaker 2: tell her, wait, do you not identify as a black woman,
Speaker 2: Because when you're out on the street, people don't see
Speaker 2: you first as a child of God. They're going to
Speaker 2: see you as a black woman. That's just the reality
Speaker 2: of where we live. And she kind of gets quiet,
Speaker 2: and I was like, well, no, like I identify as a
Speaker 2: child of God first. And I'm like wow, Like, I
Speaker 2: wouldn't be able to do that, Like, my ethnic identity
Speaker 2: is so big within me. It's a huge part of
Speaker 2: who I am, but that isn't bigger than this other
Speaker 2: thing that is my sexual orientation and my gender identity.
Speaker 2: So we kind of start having this debate back and forth,
Speaker 2: and I realized that she wasn't a safe person to
Speaker 2: go to. So I stopped the conversation that day. But
Speaker 2: the conversations kept happening as new things started to arise
Speaker 2: within the church, so I started to have more questions.
Speaker 2: I started to be more vocal within social media. It
Speaker 2: got to the point one day where one of the
Speaker 2: pastors approached me and asked me to no longer post
Speaker 2: on social media because I was a leader in the church,
Speaker 2: and how could it be that I was posting that
Speaker 2: kind of thing if that's not what the church believed in.
Speaker 2: And I looked at him and was like, I'm sorry, sir,
Speaker 2: but no, you cannot tell me what I can or
Speaker 2: cannot say. This is not a cult, and if it is,
Speaker 2: then I'm going to leave right now. And so I
Speaker 2: really set the boundary there. So we were constantly in debates.
Speaker 2: It was starting to become like very much back and
Speaker 2: forth with him and her of what it meant to
Speaker 2: identify as queer, and them constantly trying to convince me
Speaker 2: to identify as a child of God.
Speaker 1: But you went to that first pastor, your pastor. It
Speaker 1: sounds like in confidence. So how did other people find out?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I told her in confidence from the start. She
Speaker 2: ended up telling the rest of them, so she outed
Speaker 2: me to them. And I only found out towards the
Speaker 2: end when I was in meetings with one of the pastors.
Speaker 2: I was going to be assisting him with some like
Speaker 2: admin stuff, and he wanted to meet with me, so
Speaker 2: I was like sure. So we ended up going to
Speaker 2: his coffee shop. And whenever a pastor says that you're
Speaker 2: going to go to a coffee shop or meet up there,
Speaker 2: it's often never a good thing. So we end up
Speaker 2: going to his coffee shop and he's like, who is Noami,
Speaker 2: tell me about you. So I tell him all about me.
Speaker 2: I don't mention the fact that I'm queer because I
Speaker 2: didn't feel the need to. I just told him about
Speaker 2: my family, like my religious background, like anything that really
Speaker 2: pertained to what I was going to be doing, and
Speaker 2: like I didn't want to talk about my queerness. And
Speaker 2: he kind of was not happy about that because he
Speaker 2: was expecting me to say more. So at the end
Speaker 2: of the meeting, he's like, I want to mend for you,
Speaker 2: and so I was like, okay. So I look at him,
Speaker 2: this cis gender heterosexual, white man, and like, you want
Speaker 2: to mentor me a brown person who's questioning their identity,
Speaker 2: their gender identity, and it's clearly queer. Internally, I was
Speaker 2: like what the hell? But then externally I was like, okay, whatever,
Speaker 2: So I accepted it. The next meeting we come and
Speaker 2: he asked me, what is something that is holding you
Speaker 2: back from giving it? You're all at Hillsong. So I
Speaker 2: start thinking of whatever bullshit answer to say, and I
Speaker 2: end up saying, well, Carl Lentz did talk about a
Speaker 2: bill that was passed in New York on abortion. And
Speaker 2: it's really frustrating because he's giving unfactual information to the congregation.
Speaker 2: So really that I'm as a public health professional, I
Speaker 2: cannot stand by that, and I believe that, regardless of
Speaker 2: your faith, people should be given every option available. He's like,
Speaker 2: is there anything else? And I kind of like stay quiet,
Speaker 2: look down a little bit. And then he's like, it's
Speaker 2: the fact that you're queer, right, And I look up
Speaker 2: and I'm like, wait, I never told you, Like how
Speaker 2: did you find out? And he's like, oh, like I
Speaker 2: spoke to that leader that you told the first time.
Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, okay, I see what's going
Speaker 2: on here. So that part of me started to get
Speaker 2: I was very frustrated that she had done that, and
Speaker 2: I started to connect the dots as to what had
Speaker 2: happened throughout my whole journey of me having this conversation
Speaker 2: with her. While I was having these conversations with her,
Speaker 2: I was having a mental health crisis, being in grad
Speaker 2: schools hard, my family not accepting me, my mom literally
Speaker 2: condemning me again to hell. So I was reliving that
Speaker 2: past trauma having my church not know like if they
Speaker 2: were going to be welcoming of me, and then coming
Speaker 2: to that realization and once again that the place I
Speaker 2: had chosen and I thought was safe wasn't safe. I
Speaker 2: ended up having to admit myself into a psychiatric hospital
Speaker 2: the first time while I was at Hillsong under the
Speaker 2: mentorship and support of this other leader who was being
Speaker 2: told what to do by this other pastor who wanted
Speaker 2: to mentor me, And so all the darts start connecting
Speaker 2: and I'm like, wow, Okay, I see what's happening then,
Speaker 2: and why she was telling me that instead of going
Speaker 2: to my therapist to read a devotional about waging war
Speaker 2: against your brain, that anxiety was a war you needed
Speaker 2: to win, rather than something that could be maybe medicated
Speaker 2: if need be, if it's at that level, or that
Speaker 2: depression was just the devil bringing you down, instead of
Speaker 2: saying no, maybe there's something deeper happening, Maybe talk, therapy
Speaker 2: or medication could help. And I was very privileged to
Speaker 2: have had a pastor who was qualified, who knew what
Speaker 2: to do in my life. She was my best friend's aunt,
Speaker 2: and when I was in the deepest part of my
Speaker 2: mental health crisis, my best friend from grad school got
Speaker 2: me on the phone with her. This pastor was a black,
Speaker 2: lesbian pastor in a city close to Boston, and that
Speaker 2: phone call was very different from what Hillsong had how
Speaker 2: they had approached my mental health crisis. She quickly heard
Speaker 2: me crying and in the space of how I had
Speaker 2: been viewing my mental health and having suicide ideation, and
Speaker 2: she quickly said, Wow, it sounds like you're having a
Speaker 2: really hard time. Have you ever considered having a psychiatric evaluation?
Speaker 2: So she quickly understood her limitations as a religious leader
Speaker 2: and knew that it was important to then consult professional
Speaker 2: in that field to give me the support that I needed.
Speaker 2: So I immediately saw the stark difference between her as
Speaker 2: someone who was qualified who knew how to approach mental
Speaker 2: health crisis, and someone who was not qualified and was
Speaker 2: told to have me read devotionals and pray the depression
Speaker 2: away and wage war against my brain. So it was
Speaker 2: these two very stark realities of what was happening around me,
Speaker 2: and seeing that this other pastor who was affirming of
Speaker 2: me and was helping me through this crisis, went to
Speaker 2: go visit me in the hospital and give me spiritual guidance.
Speaker 2: The other people at Hillsong never showed up, And when
Speaker 2: I came out of the hospital that following Sunday, I
Speaker 2: realized very quickly that they wanted me to go back
Speaker 2: to being this volunteer producing at the same level I
Speaker 2: had done before, not realizing that maybe my brain needed
Speaker 2: a little bit of time to settle back into reality.
Speaker 2: So all of these things were coming into realization, and
Speaker 2: I started to really look at it all and say,
Speaker 2: I don't think Hillsong is a good space, is a
Speaker 2: safe space. I don't think Hillsong is a home.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 1: And you know what unfortunate it is is that it's
Speaker 1: such a tragic parallel process for you. You were once again
Speaker 1: sort of betrayed in a religious space. You know, so
Speaker 1: this place you've gone to to be home, to belong,
Speaker 1: that they betrayed your confidence by the one pastor who
Speaker 1: you likely felt a sense of trust with because she
Speaker 1: was a woman of color. I'm going to tell you,
Speaker 1: as a woman of color that when we look to
Speaker 1: someone based on their minoritized status and then we feel
Speaker 1: betrayed in that space, it hits harder because there was
Speaker 1: a presumption of trust there that does get sort of
Speaker 1: doubly violated. In essence, kind of what they were calling
Speaker 1: mentorship sounded like in doctrination, how can we turn you
Speaker 1: into something different? And if you once again were being
Speaker 1: invalidated for who you were, and you'd had the experience
Speaker 1: like coming out to your mother, she was not happy
Speaker 1: about it. That's an invalidation. You had grown up with invalidation,
Speaker 1: you were experiencing it again.
Speaker 3: In this space.
Speaker 1: And there's even to me something noemi invalidating about knowing
Speaker 1: that you're being chosen to be the greeter at the
Speaker 1: front of the church for a form of tokenism. That
Speaker 1: is a form of invalidation because you're not being seen.
Speaker 3: As a whole person.
Speaker 1: So all of this piling up that you know, through
Speaker 1: whatever divine mercy there was, there was someone in your
Speaker 1: life who did see this. Because this much betrayal and
Speaker 1: this much invalidation, you better believe it's going to end
Speaker 1: up in a mental health crisis, especially when you're not
Speaker 1: calling it as such.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: I really, as a psychologist, want to highlight the courage
Speaker 1: it required to check yourself into a psychiatric facility. Many,
Speaker 1: if not most people, even when they're in the throes
Speaker 1: of crisis for any number of reasons, will not do that.
Speaker 1: The stigma, the shame, the not knowing, and you did that.
Speaker 1: So there's a steely spine within you that's giving you
Speaker 1: resilience at these significant moments, because if those crises go unaddressed, Noemi,
Speaker 1: the consequences can often be quite catastrophic. So you know,
Speaker 1: I think that that's an important message to get out
Speaker 1: there too, is that when it starts feeling that bad,
Speaker 1: is to go in there and get that help. So
Speaker 1: if you did end up leaving, you decided no, I
Speaker 1: don't want any part of this. You spoke out against
Speaker 1: Hillsong after you left. What happened once I left?
Speaker 2: I realized that they were being purposely ambiguous in all
Speaker 2: ways of their policies, but more specifically with LGBTQ youth
Speaker 2: and LGBTQ people because they weren't being clear about who
Speaker 2: they were. The welcome home had terms and conditions, and
Speaker 2: so that for me brought in a lot of anger
Speaker 2: and I started to post on social media. First, I
Speaker 2: reached out to the local pastor and was like, Wow, like,
Speaker 2: I'm really angered at the fact that I served under
Speaker 2: you for two years and yet no one in your
Speaker 2: church could give me your church's policy on LGBTQ people
Speaker 2: and like where we could serve and what you believe in?
Speaker 2: I asked for it so many times and no one
Speaker 2: could give me a clear answer somewhat until the end.
Speaker 2: I had to pull it out of someone and for
Speaker 2: them to finally say, no, we won't marry the same
Speaker 2: sex couple and no we won't hire an openly queer person,
Speaker 2: Like I had to pull that out of someone, and
Speaker 2: so it was really angry me and I messaged him
Speaker 2: that via Instagram. I DMed him and I was like,
Speaker 2: it's very like frustrating that I never had anyone even
Speaker 2: care to like reach out after I left to ask
Speaker 2: why I left, to even like do aftercare because I
Speaker 2: had seen so many people leave the church and for
Speaker 2: them to be like forgotten, nobody cared that they left,
Speaker 2: like they continued as if nothing had happened. And so
Speaker 2: his response was very eye opening to me. He said,
Speaker 2: we loved you, and we asked people to give the
Speaker 2: same grace in return that they want to receive from
Speaker 2: the church. And I was like, wait, so it's transactional.
Speaker 2: He starts going on about like, yeah, you're this leader,
Speaker 2: like I thought they were working with you throughout this
Speaker 2: process of you navigating your queerness. And I was like, wait,
Speaker 2: I never even told you. Now you're outing yourself that
Speaker 2: you knew and you never cared as well. And so
Speaker 2: that for me was another eye opening moment that I
Speaker 2: was like, Okay, this was all interconnected. And I also
Speaker 2: felt really off about the way he spoke to me
Speaker 2: because it was sounding very gaslighting, manipulative, disregard anything I
Speaker 2: had said, and putting it with we loved you and
Speaker 2: have grace for us. And for me, it was like, no,
Speaker 2: like that's not how things work. So I screenshoted those
Speaker 2: messages and I ended up posting it on social media.
Speaker 1: My conversation will continue after this break.
Speaker 2: Before I posted it, I said, this is not the
Speaker 2: way pastors should act. I'm going to share something very personal,
Speaker 2: and it's very sad to see that some leaders think
Speaker 2: that this is okay to talk to the people who
Speaker 2: worked under them and to their parishioners or people part
Speaker 2: of their congregation that believe that they could use whatever
Speaker 2: language and gaslight and manipulate them. Within seconds of me
Speaker 2: posting it and I tagged him in it, he replied
Speaker 2: to me very mad, saying like, why are you using
Speaker 2: your social media to call people out or to talk
Speaker 2: to people like this, like this is so disrespectful, Like
Speaker 2: I would never use social media in that way. And
Speaker 2: I look at him and say, like, I tried to
Speaker 2: have a conversation with y'all, y'all didn't listen, So I'm
Speaker 2: gonna use any means necessary to get my voice out there.
Speaker 2: And he didn't like that. And I quickly started to
Speaker 2: see all of these other leaders looking at my Instagram
Speaker 2: stories and checking everything, and it didn't end there, Like
Speaker 2: they were checking every day for like almost three weeks,
Speaker 2: going in, checking what I was posting, checking where I
Speaker 2: was at, and so that for me started to get
Speaker 2: a little scary. And at the same time, I was
Speaker 2: receiving people responding like yeah, I get them. Oh my god,
Speaker 2: finally someone is saying something. But all of that was
Speaker 2: starting to get to me, and I started to get
Speaker 2: what we call on social media's trolls, people who create
Speaker 2: fake accounts to send you messages. So I was getting
Speaker 2: these troll messages that were very intense, and we're getting
Speaker 2: under my skin and we're like really starting to hurt.
Speaker 2: And I started seeing myself fall back into this mentality
Speaker 2: that I had gone in the same pattern that had
Speaker 2: happened back when I went to the psychiatric hospital the
Speaker 2: first time. So because I was getting scared, because I
Speaker 2: noticed my mental health going down again, and I was
Speaker 2: exhausted of having to navigate this, I ended up admitting
Speaker 2: myself once again in twenty twenty, just a year later,
Speaker 2: in order to ensure that it was a safe thing
Speaker 2: and I prevent anything from going and becoming worse.
Speaker 1: Your experience shows that a system that's this toxic, populated
Speaker 1: by toxic people, engaging with them, you will always get sick.
Speaker 1: So you know, to post and have that kind of
Speaker 1: a battle. Their purpose built for this kind of thing.
Speaker 1: They can go to battle and not feel anything that conflict.
Speaker 1: People who are very antagonistic and manipulative, they really thrive
Speaker 1: under that. But for somebody who's not built like that,
Speaker 1: especially in the era of the troll and all of that,
Speaker 1: is that advocacy work often means making noise. But if
Speaker 1: you're making noise and speaking out against a toxic system
Speaker 1: or toxic people in that system, they will come for you,
Speaker 1: and if you're not built for that, you will get sick.
Speaker 1: My question then becomes faith has been a part of
Speaker 1: your life since the day you were born, and it
Speaker 1: has been some of the highest, brightest moments of your
Speaker 1: life and clearly some of the bleakest all together. How
Speaker 1: have these experiences affected your relationship with your faith? Are
Speaker 1: you a part of a church?
Speaker 2: Now? That's a good question, and I laugh because there
Speaker 2: really isn't one. Now. I don't attend a church. I
Speaker 2: find church triggering, meaning that if I walk in and
Speaker 2: I see a certain type of word or service or
Speaker 2: any like smoke, because they would put on smoke or
Speaker 2: certain lighting, it's a little triggering and I feel very
Speaker 2: uncomfortable and my body's like, get out, this isn't safe.
Speaker 2: So I don't regularly attend to church. I don't go.
Speaker 2: I haven't gone. I attended church this past week because
Speaker 2: I am going to be studying theology at BU and
Speaker 2: so I decided to go. Yeah, thank you. I decided
Speaker 2: to go to chapel and it was a very affirming
Speaker 2: service and it was very liturgical, and I found peace
Speaker 2: in that and the fact that I knew what was happening,
Speaker 2: but I didn't believe what they were saying, but I
Speaker 2: could respect where they were coming from because I understood.
Speaker 2: But yeah, personally, I don't believe the ways I used to. Now,
Speaker 2: more than anything, I've gotten more intrigued and curious about
Speaker 2: my indigenous identity. My grandparents on my dad's side were indigenous,
Speaker 2: and they converted to Christianity into that fundamentalist church, and
Speaker 2: they left behind everything that they were. And so for me,
Speaker 2: for someone to have been colonized and assimilated the way
Speaker 2: they were, I want to do the work of going
Speaker 2: back and learning who I am and who our people were.
Speaker 2: We didn't survive colonization from Spain for us to go
Speaker 2: back into it. So I want to decolonize my faith
Speaker 2: and deconstruct it, and so I would view myself more
Speaker 2: as agnostic now. So if there is a God, or
Speaker 2: if there is something out there, I wouldn't view it
Speaker 2: as like this being or someone that uses he him pronouns,
Speaker 2: because I feel like it's beyond pronouns or beyond the binary.
Speaker 2: So it's something humans really can't comprehend because we can
Speaker 2: understand what we see. And so that for me is
Speaker 2: more like I find divinity in nature. I find divinity
Speaker 2: in other people. If people are made in the image
Speaker 2: of God, then there is dis within us. So I
Speaker 2: find divinity within others as well in the good side
Speaker 2: of them.
Speaker 1: Well, do you've really come a long way than in
Speaker 1: who you are in terms of your faith? And you
Speaker 1: go in there and you grapple with theology, which is
Speaker 1: obviously is very different than fundamentalism or evangelical kinds of approaches,
Speaker 1: but really this divinity that pervades everything, that's a huge departure.
Speaker 1: And after going through all of that, and you suffered,
Speaker 1: you really really suffered. I do believe that coming back
Speaker 1: from a toxic relationship is a form of decolonization for
Speaker 1: everyone because it's really sort of a pushback on oppressive systems.
Speaker 1: But for you, it's much much more pointed than that.
Speaker 1: So I guess I'll put this out to you as
Speaker 1: a conjecture since you are studying theology, so let this
Speaker 1: be your exam question for the day. What is the
Speaker 1: healthy way to organize a religion?
Speaker 2: As someone who's experienced and studied a bit of religion,
Speaker 2: and compared to religion, I don't know if there is
Speaker 2: a healthy way of doing organized religion because yeah, personally,
Speaker 2: I haven't had that experience, and I would hope for
Speaker 2: that church. And I'm going to use this as a
Speaker 2: very different perspective of church, church is a group of people,
Speaker 2: is a community. So for me, a church is where
Speaker 2: the people in this community have their needs met, because
Speaker 2: that is what Jesus was looking to create, something that
Speaker 2: was liberating for all, where they could have heaven on earth.
Speaker 2: And so if there is a form of organized religion
Speaker 2: that is seeking to do that, that is providing for
Speaker 2: everyone in the community. Because back then they would all
Speaker 2: put into a pile of money and they would divide
Speaker 2: it up. It was a form of like socialism and
Speaker 2: communism and all of that, but they were all having
Speaker 2: their needs met and that's who Jesus was like, that's
Speaker 2: what he was preaching. That was a form of liberation
Speaker 2: because they were living under an oppressive system, which is
Speaker 2: a Roman empire, and that's the story that he's telling
Speaker 2: about their liberation and how to find liberation of the
Speaker 2: mind within a system that's so oppressive and also fight
Speaker 2: back against that system that was politically oppressing them. And
Speaker 2: so that for me, if there is a religious institution
Speaker 2: today that does that, that focuses on fulfilling people's needs
Speaker 2: completely and is doing a good job of advocating for them,
Speaker 2: then that is a healthy way to do it. I
Speaker 2: haven't found it. I don't know if I want to
Speaker 2: attend it anyway.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's fantastic, and I guess if I were
Speaker 1: to say that there was a heaven on earth, I
Speaker 1: would say that for each individual person, that heaven on
Speaker 1: earth is that capacity to live fully into your authentic self,
Speaker 1: to face the world that way, and to have some
Speaker 1: spaces in your life where that true sense of you
Speaker 1: is seen and validated and loved and cherished simply for
Speaker 1: what it is. And that people have at least one
Speaker 1: person in their life that can do that and fully
Speaker 1: possessed of who they are. I think what is so
Speaker 1: sort of heartbreaking about your story is that you were
Speaker 1: basically told, in this organization that brought you under a
Speaker 1: false pretense of belonging in home and religion and God
Speaker 1: and love and all of that, that you were basically
Speaker 1: told that the minute you stepped out of line, you
Speaker 1: were invalid, you were not good. And to me, that's
Speaker 1: just pure destruction, and that it happened in an organization
Speaker 1: that had got so much traction all around the world
Speaker 1: and no accountability, no responsibility. Frankly, that makes me sick
Speaker 1: because that is the ultimate invalidation, to do it from
Speaker 1: a place where people again come in with such vulnerability,
Speaker 1: and to turn whatever are faith based relationships are with earth,
Speaker 1: with nature, with God, whatever it is, and to literally
Speaker 1: devolve that into a transaction. I am so sorry you
Speaker 1: went through that. I really, really am. You know, this
Speaker 1: week they are releasing another documentary series about Hillsong, where
Speaker 1: we're going to hear more about what happened. Can I
Speaker 1: ask you how you feel about that.
Speaker 2: I'm going to say something that Brian Houston would always say,
Speaker 2: there is more. He always said that there is more
Speaker 2: and there's always going to be more when it comes
Speaker 2: to things coming out. But I hope that the folks
Speaker 2: who were a part of it received that the care
Speaker 2: and support that they need after it, because it is
Speaker 2: not easy to do, as someone who's said it before,
Speaker 2: and I applaud them for doing so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, amazing more, there is more. Well that right there,
Speaker 1: that's a lot to say. You've basically left the church.
Speaker 1: What about in the rest of your family, like you've
Speaker 1: made such a big arc of change. What about others
Speaker 1: that you've been called?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So twenty twenty quarantine was a blessing in disguise.
Speaker 2: I had the privilege of quarantining with my family in Arizona,
Speaker 2: and they finally got to see me for me. They
Speaker 2: realized that nothing had changed, that they just knew a
Speaker 2: little bit more about me with this other side of
Speaker 2: me coming out, and they got to ask questions and
Speaker 2: really wrestle with what the church had done, because by
Speaker 2: this point I had already left and I was speaking
Speaker 2: out while I was there, and so they had a
Speaker 2: very eye opening experience and decided to stop attending the church,
Speaker 2: more specifically my mom and my sisters. My brother still attends,
Speaker 2: but my mom and my sisters had had enough. They
Speaker 2: didn't agree with the fact that it was not inclusive
Speaker 2: of everyone the ways that they had treated me. My mom,
Speaker 2: during one of the last conferences she went to, got
Speaker 2: on stage and said that the church needed to love
Speaker 2: queer people more go lo that yeah, the church ostracized
Speaker 2: her and she ended up leaving, and I was like, wow, yeah,
Speaker 2: now you felt a little bit of what it was like.
Speaker 2: So but kudos to her. It took a big deal
Speaker 2: to do that, and so now she's super happy for
Speaker 2: me and my relationship is realizing that queer people can
Speaker 2: have healthy, thriving same sex relationships and so yeah, she
Speaker 2: loves my girlfriend and she loves my sister's girlfriend who
Speaker 2: also came out later.
Speaker 3: I love this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it became really cool. My brother's still navigating
Speaker 2: with understanding it all, having his daughters be also still
Speaker 2: within it, and you know, I wish him the best,
Speaker 2: and I set boundaries for my own safety. But yeah,
Speaker 2: my family is great and they're doing great well.
Speaker 1: So what I really love about this story is that
Speaker 1: your family found its way back to their true selves.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that that's it can sometimes be
Speaker 1: a real process to get to those unconditionally loving spaces.
Speaker 1: The real blessing is that you got there, and so
Speaker 1: you know, to me, the real divinity in the story
Speaker 1: is that a mother got to reconnect with her child
Speaker 1: and see the beauty of her. So I really thank
Speaker 1: you for that. That's a stunner. Thank you so much, Noami.
Speaker 1: So here's my last question. If you were walking down
Speaker 1: the street again in Boston and saw those same signs
Speaker 1: on a church that said welcome home and you belong,
Speaker 1: what would you do.
Speaker 2: I would probably run to a store and grab a
Speaker 2: poster board and a marker and say terms and conditions apply.
Speaker 3: That's Mike drop, We're done. Noami, thank you.
Speaker 1: And maybe that's what's so unfortunate, is that when we're
Speaker 1: talking about love and religion, terms and conditions need not apply.
Speaker 1: So I can't thank you enough. This was I've learned
Speaker 1: so much, and thank you for teaching me in such
Speaker 1: a clear way. There's words I've never understood. You really
Speaker 1: debunked though, So thank you. I'm so happy for you
Speaker 1: and your mom and your sisters, and I'm just so
Speaker 1: happy for all of that.
Speaker 3: So thank you for giving me that kind of heart
Speaker 3: uplift too.
Speaker 1: Here are my takeaways from my conversation with Noemi.
Speaker 3: First, controlling and invalidating.
Speaker 1: Systems, like some families or religious systems, do.
Speaker 3: Not want people to bring their whole selves healthy systems do.
Speaker 1: Any kind of invalidating relationship, whether with a person, family,
Speaker 1: or institution, requires you to check your identity and authenticity
Speaker 1: at the door, and this carries a psychological cost. It's
Speaker 1: not as simple as just giving in and then everything
Speaker 1: is fine. Noemi experienced several major mental health challenges, and
Speaker 1: any one who cannot show up as who they really
Speaker 1: are may experience despair, depression, anxiety, physical health issues, and
Speaker 1: a sense of existential discomfort. In our next takeaway, when
Speaker 1: we are looking for something new, we need to make
Speaker 1: sure we figure out what didn't work with the old. Noemi,
Speaker 1: as a young person, took the courageous step of stepping
Speaker 1: out of their childhood church and was searching for something better,
Speaker 1: and at that young age, was still coming into their
Speaker 1: own identity, and sadly, as they were working through all
Speaker 1: of that, fell into a system that once again would
Speaker 1: not support anyone's true self if it didn't work for
Speaker 1: the church's brand. When a person is young, this is
Speaker 1: still being figured out, which is why there is a
Speaker 1: greater vulnerability to repeating cycles similar invalidation from a childhood
Speaker 1: religious community being repeated in Hillsong. As we get older
Speaker 1: and hopefully settle into our identities, we may get better
Speaker 1: at that discernment, but it does mean taking a minute
Speaker 1: to do what Noemi actually described as deconstructing. In their case,
Speaker 1: it was about faith, but this deconstruction process is about
Speaker 1: staying in touch with ourselves to protect ourselves from repeating cycles.
Speaker 1: In this next takeaway, a theme we observe in invalidating
Speaker 1: systems of any kind, whether it is a family or institution,
Speaker 1: is often a discouraging of seeking out mental health services.
Speaker 1: In Noemi's case, they were discouraged and it became about
Speaker 1: being better at faith.
Speaker 3: In other cases, families may tell people it's all in
Speaker 3: your head, or don't share your problem with strangers.
Speaker 1: The more toxic and dysfunctional a system is, the more
Speaker 1: it is concerned with its own preservation and less concerned
Speaker 1: with the health and well being of the people within it.
Speaker 1: This is a dangerous setup because delaying mental health services
Speaker 1: can mean that a person's mental and physical health can
Speaker 1: deteriorate more precipitously. For this next takeaway, Noemi's story actually
Speaker 1: raised a form of gaslighting we don't talk enough about
Speaker 1: when people are actually doing or saying something that is
Speaker 1: bad for you. In Noemi's case, having their confidential disclosure
Speaker 1: being shared with others in Hillsong or being told to
Speaker 1: actually view their identity in a different way that served
Speaker 1: the church and then telling you that it is good
Speaker 1: for you is a particularly insidious form of gas It's
Speaker 1: one thing to tell someone that there is something wrong
Speaker 1: with them, which is what we observe in classical gaslighting,
Speaker 1: but it's a whole different level when people are being
Speaker 1: told that a pattern that is harming them is good
Speaker 1: for them. It takes gaslighting and multiplies the toxic fallout,
Speaker 1: and in our last takeaway, ultimately, Noemi's story is the
Speaker 1: story of how faith in something outside of them transforms
Speaker 1: into faith within themselves.
Speaker 3: Many survivors of any kind of.
Speaker 1: Toxic circumstances, including religious abuse, will experience tremendous despair. But
Speaker 1: when they get the support, guidance, and validation to learn
Speaker 1: to trust themselves, be themselves, honor themselves, and practice self compassion,
Speaker 1: these experiences can be a painful wake up call that
Speaker 1: ultimately can bring people back to themselves. Noami ultimately is
Speaker 1: studying religion but not capitulating to the arbitrariness and self
Speaker 1: serving quality of an organized group, finding their own authentic
Speaker 1: path forward and in an unusual twist which we don't
Speaker 1: always see, actually also lit a path forward for family members.
Speaker 1: Surviving can evolve into thriving.
Speaker 3: It just takes a minute.