1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: M Hey everybody. I'm Robert Evans hosted Behind the Bastards. 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: I don't have a fun lead in for the episode 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: this week because Sophie is not here and uh, she's 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: she's thrown me off, so you should drag her on 5 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,119 Speaker 1: Twitter and and say why didn't Robert have a have 6 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: a funny what's excell and my wise? You know, the 7 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: real reason I didn't have a good intro is because 8 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: I thrive on on shocking her with my new terrible introduction. Uh. 9 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: And with nothing terrible, no Sophie to shock I have, 10 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: I have nothing terrible to say. But I do have 11 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 1: a great episode of Behind the Bastards, the podcast where 12 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: we tell you everything you don't know about the very 13 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: worst people in all of history. Uh. And I have 14 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: two great guests with me. I have Oz and Kara, 15 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: co hosts of the Sleepwalkers podcast. Very happy to have 16 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: you here, very happy to be here, Thank you, thank 17 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: you for having us. And uh, how are you guys 18 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: doing this week? How's how's everything conking out in your 19 00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: end of the world. Well, we may also be Sleepwalkers. 20 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: Fairly shortly. We had quite a long one, but we're 21 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: very excited. We're midway through season one of Sleepwalkers, and um, 22 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: you know, it's amazing. We're kind of we're getting more 23 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: momentum and people are wanting to talk to us on 24 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: the show, which is great. But you know, we're kind 25 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: of recording interviews and pushing out live and the world 26 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: of AI never sleeps unlike Sleepwalkers, So we're kind of wait, wait, 27 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: we're we're doing good. But we're we're, we're We're We're Yeah, 28 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: We're We're the end of a long Friday. And Sleepwalkers 29 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: is kind of about you know, you picked the title 30 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: because it's sort of about the kind of unintended and 31 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: unforeseen consequences of AI, of all these sort of algorithms 32 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: and machines that we are increasingly handing over control of 33 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: our lives too. Would that be an accurate summary, I 34 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 1: would say so yeah. And also, I guess we're not 35 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: too late, but there are definitely things that are already 36 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: happening that we probably should have been focusing on a 37 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: little while ago. Um, so you know the point of 38 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: the show is to equip people to not sleep walk 39 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: into the future. Well than today is a perfect episode 40 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: for us all to be talking about because this this 41 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: really is an episode. There's a bastard here, um. But 42 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: more than anything, this is an episode about the unintended, 43 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,399 Speaker 1: unforeseen consequences of technology, of people adopting a cool new 44 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: thing that has a lot of promise for the future 45 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: and not thinking about all of the all of the 46 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: things that will change about the world. Um. Have you 47 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: all ever heard of a fellow named Fritz Haber? Yes? Now, 48 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: what do you What do you know about old Fritzie? 49 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: Wait a minute, wait a minute. Oh boy, I shouldn't 50 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: have said yes, because I know the name, but I 51 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: really don't know what I'm gonna Everyone heard his name 52 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: at some point in high school history class or whatever. 53 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, tell just tell me. Well, Fritz Haber 54 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,519 Speaker 1: is a number of things, so you would have heard 55 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: of him. Uh, for the haber Bosch process, which is 56 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 1: how we get nitrogen um the majority of the nitrogen 57 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: that we get um. But Fritz Haber is also the 58 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 1: father of chemical warfare. UM. Now, that probably qualifies him 59 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: as a bastard on its own, But unfortunately, Fritz's legacy 60 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: is a lot more complex than than just that. Because 61 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: if you're a human being who exists on this earth, 62 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:19,959 Speaker 1: like roughly of of our listeners are. Uh, then there's 63 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,519 Speaker 1: there's between a thirty and fifty percent chance that you're 64 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: only alive because of Fritz Haber. Fritz Habert was the 65 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: beginning of chemical wolf at World War One and the 66 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: gas Oh yeah, the German World War One scientists basically. Yeah. 67 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: And there's some you could make some arguments like Hannibal 68 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: was said to have used psychochemically drugged wine to disrupt 69 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: an army at one point like that, But Fritz is 70 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: the first guy to really lock that ship down in 71 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: a big way. Um, he's an important dude. Uh. And 72 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: you could you could very very easily argue that he's 73 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: among a small handful of like we talked about people 74 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: like Hitler and stall and on this podcast. Uh, he's 75 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: in that tier of importance in terms of like his 76 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: impact on the world. Um. So I think he's one 77 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: of these guys. Until I started researching him, like you, 78 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: he was someone whose name was familiar because I'd run 79 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: across him in one of those little like boxes in 80 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:18,359 Speaker 1: a history textbook that was like, oh you should know 81 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: about this guy. Um, today we're gonna learn the rest. So, um, 82 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 1: you're all ready to bound on into this heedless sleepwalk 83 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: into this story. Yes, yes, okay. Fritz Haber was born 84 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: in Breslau, Prussia, to a moderately wealthy Jewish family. His father, Siegfried, 85 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: was a successful small business owner, and his mother, who 86 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: was also his dad's cousin, was named Paula. Now, their 87 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 1: families were not supportive of this union because you know, 88 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,359 Speaker 1: they were very very close relatives, but they were just 89 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: kind of too dtf to be denied, so to speak. Um. Now, 90 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: it turns out that marrying a very close cousin and 91 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: then having a baby with them can can cause some complications, 92 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: which it did, and Paula died three weeks after giving 93 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: birth to Fritz. Um, so their their families may have 94 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: been kind of right about that not being a great idea. 95 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: Child of incest okay, got it, Yeah, child Childer, and 96 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: the kind of like incest that was more I mean, 97 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 1: it was a little weird at the time, like some 98 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 1: amount of that was more normal back then. But like 99 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: this was one of those cases where everyone was sort 100 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: of like the zadd that said. Uh, Siegfried and Paula 101 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: were very clearly in love and and Fritz's father, Siegfried, 102 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: was devastated by his wife's death. Um, and so Siegfried 103 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: threw himself into his business, which was essentially running a 104 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: company that sold dies all around Prussia. Now today Fritz's 105 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 1: hometown of Breslau is part of Poland, but starting in 106 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy one, when Fritz was three, it became part 107 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: of a newly minted little country y'all may have heard of, 108 00:05:54,760 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: called Germany. Uh the boarder of the naughty local princelings 109 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,239 Speaker 1: to into unity. Yes, it was a decision that would 110 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,799 Speaker 1: only have positive impacts on the world and would cause 111 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: no problems. I haven't read history past, so I assume it. 112 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: It worked out fine. Um. So it was an exciting time, 113 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: you know, the eighteen seventies was an exciting time for 114 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: the German people, but it would not have been an 115 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 1: exciting or a fun time to be someone who lived 116 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: in the Haber household. Siegfried was, of course devastated by 117 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: the loss of his wife, and to his credit, there's 118 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: no evidence that he took his sorrow out on his 119 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: son in a violent way, but he did kind of 120 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 1: take it out on him by being a totally crap 121 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: dad uh and family totally absent, just threw himself into 122 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: his business. Wasn't around, was kind of too devastated by 123 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: his wife's loss to like really stand looking at his son. Um, 124 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: So it was one of those kind of shitty dad's, 125 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: not like the drunken, abusive, but just like space Cadet, 126 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: I was was poor little for it. Was he kind 127 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: of cut off from his cousins and other family members 128 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: because of this this cursed union in the first place. 129 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: Or was he was he kind of after his mother died. 130 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: Was he welcomed back into the wider family? Oh? Yeah, 131 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: he was. He was taken care of by the rest 132 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: of the family. Um, he had several aunts and they 133 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: sort of raised him while his dad was as his 134 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: family's His dad was basically living from his memories and 135 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: working twenty four hours a day, So his aunts took 136 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: care of him and he was kind of raised by 137 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: his extended family. Now, when Fritz was seven in Germany 138 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: was four, Siegfried finally fell in love again with the 139 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: perfectly named Hedwig Hamburger, which is one of the best 140 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: names I've encountered. Um, yeah, I always forget Hamburger. Is 141 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: it totally suitable German last name? Yeah? Yeah, it's I. 142 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: I can't not laugh at it, um, which I'm sorry 143 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: hamburgers who might happen to be listening, like McDonald is 144 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: a last name, and it makes me go, yeah, yeah, 145 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: what makes me think of President Kennedy as well in 146 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:02,679 Speaker 1: Germany in the sixties saying and Berlina which means I'm Berlina, 147 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: but all simon donuts, so he had the whole whole 148 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: crowd cracking up in his face. So a donut and 149 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: a hamburger, yes, yes, So they get to laugh at 150 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: us too, for like our things that we say that 151 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: sound like that sounds like food names. It's fair. So uh. 152 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: Siegfried and Hedwig had three daughters in quick succession, and 153 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: by all accounts, Hedwig was a wonderful step mom to 154 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: the growing Fritz. So this isn't one of those stories 155 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: where the special young boy grows up under an evil stepmother. 156 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: He just you know, his dad never really connected with him. Um. 157 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: So young Fritz had an eclectic set of interests. He 158 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,599 Speaker 1: liked the theater, and he also did well in philosophy 159 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: and literature. His father was well off enough by this 160 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: point for Fritz to attend the Gymnasium, which was sort 161 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,199 Speaker 1: of the equivalent of a very high end private school 162 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: in Breslau. Uh. Starting as a preteen, Fritz spent lots 163 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: of time in Breslau's beer halls and taverns. This was 164 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: not abnormal at the time. It was pretty normal for 165 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: twelve year old kids to go go to the bar 166 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: at the end of a hard day of me and 167 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: twelve and tie a cup. Actually a very hard age, Yeah, 168 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,079 Speaker 1: oh yeah, I mean middle school would have been a 169 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: lot easier with a with a couple of pints at 170 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: the end of well, we had that in texts now um. 171 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,959 Speaker 1: As he grew older, Fritz fought increasingly with his father. 172 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: One relative wrote that Siegfried was a born pessimist uh 173 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: and while his son was reckless, Fritz had a reputation 174 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: on the family for having a lively sense of humor. 175 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: And it kind of seems like he was into the 176 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: what I would call the eighteen hundreds German equivalent of 177 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: freestyle rap. Yeah it's it's I have trouble picturing it, 178 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: but I'm gonna I'm gonna read a quote from the 179 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: book Mastermind by Daniel Charles, which is a biography of 180 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: Fritz Haber. Quote. Young Fritz developed a knack for the 181 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 1: composition of rhyming verse even on the spur of the moment. 182 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,319 Speaker 1: His teasing dog roll become the centerpiece of the family's 183 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: annual New year 's Eve celebrations. Fritz composed the verses 184 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: and taught them to his sisters, who presented them dressed 185 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 1: in costume. Our childhood and youth were illuminated by our 186 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: brother's talents, which always came forth at the right moment. 187 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,439 Speaker 1: Recalled Elsie, the oldest of the sisters. So that sounds 188 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: a little bit like just like being a Jewish kid. 189 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 1: Oh is that is? That is very much that you 190 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: and you make your younger siblings do them. I wanted 191 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 1: to tie it to battle rap, but I guess it 192 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: might be it might be a little older than that. 193 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: And as far as we know, did Fritz did Fritz 194 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:31,959 Speaker 1: take his show on the road with a local with 195 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: the local ladies in bres Lau, impressed by his his 196 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 1: just spit this dogge role? Or was it more of 197 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: another family of fair should we say? Fritz was not 198 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: what you would call a player at this point in 199 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: his life, although he is like fourteen right now, so 200 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: probably shouldn't have been um. Although that was like thirty 201 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: in entertaining lifespan. Yeah. So. Fritz graduated from the gymnasium 202 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: in eighteen eighties six, at the age of fifteen. His 203 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: grades were good, but not great in most subjects. His 204 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: real standout came during his oral examination. It was clear 205 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: at this age that Fritz's talent was in his ability 206 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,599 Speaker 1: to communicate, rather than some innate mechanical genius for it. 207 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: Celebrated his graduation by getting ship house wasted all night 208 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: with his friends in the local bars. He was still 209 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: passed out the next morning when the family sat down 210 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: for breakfast, so his father took his sister's to see. 211 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 1: There hung the funk over brother while Siegfried declared, look, well, 212 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 1: this is how the life of a drunkard begins. So 213 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 1: get a sense of his dad sympathetic. Yeah, yeah, exactly, 214 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: He's just tried, just a simple fifteen year old drunken 215 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: graduation celebration. Should don't make a big deal of it, dad, Now, 216 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: Siegfried wanted his son to apprentice as a die seller 217 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 1: and get into the family business, but Fritz was already 218 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: fed up with his hometown and had no desire to 219 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: take up that line of work. He wrote this in 220 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,239 Speaker 1: a letter to his friend, the also perfectly named Max Hamburger, 221 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: A lot of hamburgers rolling around in Breslau. No buns, 222 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 1: no buns, no buns, no buns, just hamburgers like a terrible, 223 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: terrible Windy's quote. Nothing, absolutely nothing satisfying to do, no stimulation, 224 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: only irritation and tedium. Having to watch out for this, 225 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: and that I'm so disgusted with my entire life here 226 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: that i could burst. It's the same feeling that makes 227 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: both of us to satisfied, the urge to extricate oneself 228 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 1: from narrow surroundings, to abandon it all costs, the harbor 229 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: into which my father has withdrawn himself after arduously weathering 230 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: the storms of life, to sail out into the limit 231 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: limitless ocean of life and future, guided by no other 232 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 1: star than one's own will, and striving so equivalent to 233 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 1: fuck you, dad, or yeah, that's exactly what. This is 234 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,439 Speaker 1: the same letter that Justin Bieber wrote to Scooter Braun 235 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: at seven in Canada, exactly what we just heard. Yeah, 236 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 1: I want to get the hell out of this town 237 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 1: and go do something. And you're boring dad, Yeah, Yeah, 238 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: kids don't change, although they sure had better vocabularies back then. Um. Now, Uh, 239 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: Haber had been interested in chemistry for years, and one 240 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: of his aunts had actually allowed him to use her 241 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: spare room to conduct dangerous homemade experiments, which is a 242 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: sign that Haber's extended family was pretty sweet. Uh. He 243 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: received his father's permission to study chemistry after a long argument. Uh. 244 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: And he first traveled to Berlin and then to Heidelberg, 245 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 1: where he studied under Robert Bunsen, who you might know 246 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: as the inventor of the Bunsen burner. Now, apparently Bunsen 247 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:30,959 Speaker 1: was a dick h and was kind of bad at teaching, 248 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 1: and so uh, Fritz Haber didn't really take to chemistry 249 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: at first and thought he might not be suited for 250 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: the field. Uh. He definitely was not a genius in 251 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: the subject, and he was frustrated by the fact that 252 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: other people were better at the work than him. So 253 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: he's kind of got that like gifted kid thing where 254 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: like you you grow up in your your school being 255 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: told you're good at stuff, and then you like start 256 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: actually getting into the field and meeting other people who 257 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: were better, and he's like instantly turned away from wanting 258 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: to get into the work as a result of chemistry. Yeah, 259 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: that's that kind of for me. Yeah, but no tell 260 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: me because how much chemistry is involved in making dies? 261 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: Because I was I would think maybe dad would think, Okay, 262 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: you know, Fritz wants to go and do chemistry. Uh, 263 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: that's an important process, uh, and making and making good dies. 264 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: Maybe actually he's going to serve the family business when 265 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: he comes back from Heidelberg. I think that was sort 266 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: of the sort of the thought, because it seems like 267 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: his dad he'll he'll wind up sort of back in 268 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: the family business briefly for a while. And he did 269 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: look into like doing that sort of work. But I 270 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: think he was kind of trying to just get get 271 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: the hell away from home. Um. Yeah, so he's going 272 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: to tell his dad whatever he had to tell him 273 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: to get out of there now. Fritz's studies were interrupted 274 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: in eight eight when he was drafted into the military 275 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: to do his mandatory term of service in the Prussian Army. 276 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: He served in a field artillery regiment, and he seemed 277 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: to like it. Fritz attempted to become a reserve officer 278 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: as a way of moving forward socially. Now being a 279 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: military officer in Germany at the time was like a 280 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: big deal in a way that there's not really an 281 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: equivalent in in the United States or in most modern countries. 282 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: I think it actually might be most comparable to like 283 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: being knighted in the UK, like it's a really big 284 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: social deal, Like even if you're not actively serving, being 285 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: an officer is like it was like a huge thing. Um. 286 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: But Fritz was not allowed to become a reserve officer 287 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: because he was Jewish and it was Prussia in the 288 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: eighteen eighties, and uh yeah, so Haber was Jewish, but 289 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: in a way in what like his Judaism was more 290 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: important to everyone around him because of how bigoted people 291 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: were against Jewish folks back then than it was to him. Um. 292 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: As a child, his family was not religious. He didn't 293 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: grow up attending synagogue. His family celebrated Christmas, but they 294 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: weren't religious about that either. It was just sort of 295 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: like the thing to do. Um. They were. They were secular, 296 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: and they were kind of the first generation of European 297 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: Jewish people who had the opportunity to really live that way. Um. 298 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: In eighteen twelve, the Prussian gun Men had issued a 299 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: special edict declaring that Jews should be treated as loyal 300 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: citizens of the country, which was actually kind of revolutionary 301 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: at the time, which gives you a hint for how 302 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: where my family's from. It's Prussia, yes, my grandfather, So 303 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: eighteen twelve is when Prussia was like, all right, you 304 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: guys can be loyal citizens. There's not officially government suspicion 305 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: against you. So yeah, it's it's one of those things 306 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: like what people wonder about, like how things got so 307 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: bad in the forties, and like it wasn't that long 308 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: ago that the government like had declared Jewish people were 309 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: equal citizens, like you know, it was it was a 310 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: long history of fighting to get to that point. Um, 311 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: and even like seventy years beyond that, Fritz still couldn't 312 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: become an officer. Background do we think that Fritz had 313 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: already encountered sort of anti semitism, low great anti semitism 314 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: around bres Lau, What do you think constantly constantly? It 315 00:16:55,160 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: wasn't like a huge to him constantly he was Again, yeah, 316 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: I would. It would be probably comparable to like the 317 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: kind of background racism that's really common in the United 318 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: States today for for people of color, where it's this 319 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: sort of thing that you just grow up knowing certain 320 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: roads are going to be more dangerous for you. Like 321 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: there's there were all these churches in Germany. There's still 322 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: some churches in Germany that have um like stained glass 323 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,120 Speaker 1: reliefs of anti Semitic conspiracies and stuff that date back 324 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 1: to like the fifteen hundreds and stuff like. There's that 325 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 1: still exists in Germany. It was even more common back then. 326 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: So you know, he was he he grew up in 327 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: a time where Jewish people were starting to believe that 328 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: they could advance in society and become equal German citizens. 329 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 1: But it would not have been lost on him that, Uh, 330 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: that was a new opportunity, and he he seemed to 331 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 1: be kind of focused on making the most of that opportunity. 332 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,679 Speaker 1: He converted to Christianity, again not out of he was 333 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: not religious. He didn't go to church. He did it 334 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 1: for like social reasons, because he wanted to be able 335 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: to get jobs and stuff. Um. So Fritz earned his 336 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 1: doctorate on His grades weren't great and he almost flunked physics, 337 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: but he did well enough to get to call himself 338 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: Dr Fritz Haber, So that's cool. Uh. He set out 339 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 1: to start working as a chemist and pretty much immediately 340 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: got his butt kicked by the real world. He found 341 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: himself outmatched by the other scientists he worked around, and 342 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: was frustrated by the fact that every good idea he 343 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: had was something that a better scientist was already working on. 344 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: He felt unable to contribute to any work he found useful. 345 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: In six months after graduating, twenty three year old Fritz 346 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: headed back to Breslau to work at his dad's business. 347 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: So with his tail between his legs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 348 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 1: he comes running home. Not a lot of stick tuitiveness 349 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 1: out of the out of the young Fritz. He says, 350 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: you're the drunk Your drunk sons back. Your drunk son 351 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: is back in. Chemistry is not going to be the 352 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: thing for me. Um. Now, what do you do when 353 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: your first attempt at becoming a chemist fails and you 354 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 1: wind up working at the family die selling business. You 355 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: invent I die. That's a good op, that's a good option. 356 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 1: Fritz decided to try to be a disease profit here. 357 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: That was kind of yeah, that was kind of his 358 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: first move. So he was convinced, for reasons I'm not 359 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 1: really clear about that a cholera epidemic was about to 360 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: hit Germany, and so he badgered his dad to stockpile 361 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: a huge amount of lime chloride, which was the common 362 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 1: treatment of cholera at the day, And so his goal 363 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 1: was to basically have a big pile of this stuff 364 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: when the cholera epidemic hit, so that he could sell 365 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: it and like make money and make a name for himself. Um, 366 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 1: but how does that work as a as an anti 367 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 1: cholera cora is basically, you drink you drink water, bad water, right, 368 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 1: and then you get diarrhea and that you die. Yeah, 369 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: exactly for an actual cure for that or was it 370 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: like a kind of sort of you know, I don't remedy, 371 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 1: shall we say it was? It was not a home remedy. 372 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 1: It was a commonly prescribed remedy at the time. I 373 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 1: don't think it had terrible Yeah, yeah, I mean they 374 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: were given babies hair a and for coughs at that point. 375 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: So it's not wasn't wasn't the golden age of medical science? 376 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: Um and uh, but you know, fortunately for Germany, but 377 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: unfortunately for Fritz, there was no callra epidemic and his 378 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: his dad's business took a massive hit and Fritz was 379 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: forced to head back into the world of science to 380 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: make his fortune. He had to sell it off for 381 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: pennies on the dollar. It was. It almost wiped out 382 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: the family business. So his attempt to profit off of 383 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: a horrible illness did not succeed um, which is a shame, 384 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah. Yeah, Now we're gonna talk some more 385 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:41,199 Speaker 1: about what Fritz did next and how he created the 386 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 1: technology that allows conservatively around three billion of the world's 387 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: population to eat. But first, speaking of eating, Uh, these 388 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: ads uh support the show and help us to eat. So, uh, 389 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: it's an ad pivot. That's that's what's that's what's going 390 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: on here. I'm sure you guys do more polished ones, 391 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 1: but it's happening. Products. We're back, Okay, so we're talking 392 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,679 Speaker 1: Fritz Haber. He's just tried to profit off of a 393 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: collar epidemic that sadly did not come and so you know, 394 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: he goes back into the chemistry field, and this time 395 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: he really commits himself. He gets a teaching job in 396 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: physical chemistry. Um. The exact field he taught in was 397 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: something he had no experience with, but this time he 398 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: pushed himself to just study all night until two in 399 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:36,919 Speaker 1: the morning, and he spent all of his days talking 400 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 1: to other experts, and this time he was able to 401 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: make inroads in the field, and in pretty short order 402 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: he'd gained an impressive expertise in his specific sort of 403 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: niche in chemistry, but his sense of inferiority did not 404 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: diminish even as his actual value in his profession increased. 405 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: According to the biography Mastermind quote, like many outsiders, he 406 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: developed a thin skin, a special sensitivity to slights. He 407 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: feuded with their scientists, and when criticized, he responded sharply. 408 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: When the blanch Haber's new rival in Carl's Roux, spoke 409 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: at faculty seminars, Haber regularly found the weakest point in 410 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: the bloc's argument and publicly lated bare for all to see. 411 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: Some resented his ambition and drive. The head of Carl's 412 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: Rue's chemical Institute was known to advise young students dryly 413 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 1: that they should take their questions to Haber. He knows everything. 414 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: In fact, he knows even more. He's a no at all. 415 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: So he was good at his job. Yeah, not super 416 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: well liked. Um. He was also not super successful with 417 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: the ladies. Um. He hadn't he forgot forgot that dog 418 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: rol of Us, which wish could have sent him so well, yeah, 419 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: that did not serve him. Well, he did tell his 420 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,879 Speaker 1: friend Max Meyer. At this time, women are like lovely 421 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 1: butterflies to me. I admire their colors and glitter, but 422 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: I get no further. So he could have kept to 423 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: sleep with a butterfly. I mean you can do anything. Yeah, 424 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 1: I mean it's yes, anything as possible in the early 425 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: science is advancing. I believe Fritz Haber could find a 426 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: way to have a filling romantic up a butterfly. Yeah. Actually, 427 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:11,880 Speaker 1: at the beginning of a horror movie, in my mind, 428 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 1: when you're talking about butterflies, I thought it was going 429 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: to be the opening sequence, and there's gonna be one 430 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: of those boxes of like dead butterflies which has been 431 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: preserved forever. And then it pan out to his face 432 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: and glint in his eye, and he making this comparison 433 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 1: and butterflies and women, but luckily sneaking into the entomology 434 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: department forbidden love. Yeah. Now, the woman Fritz would finally 435 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 1: convinced to love him was a lady named Clara Immli. Now, 436 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: Clara was in pretty much every way a more impressive 437 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: person than Fritz. Uh, you know, he'd sort of managed 438 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 1: to slouch his way into a doctor with with mediocre 439 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: but acceptable grades. Clara earned a doctorate too, but for 440 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: her it was a way more difficult process. For one thing, 441 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: schools like the gymnasium where Fritz had gone did not 442 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: admit female students, so Clara had to do all of 443 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 1: her learning through private tutors. But private tutors don't give 444 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: you the kind of degree that you need to be 445 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 1: able to attend university, so she found a work around. 446 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,959 Speaker 1: Women were allowed to attend college lectures as guests if 447 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 1: the professor gave their permission, So Clara slowly, agonizingly convinced 448 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 1: professor after professor to let her sit in on their lessons. 449 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: After a year in university, she took the eighteen nineties 450 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: equivalent of a g e. D. Examination and got a 451 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: certification that gave her the same qualifications as a gymnasium graduate. 452 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: And after all of this she was able to actually 453 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 1: start her university career. And she did well enough that 454 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: in December nineteen hundred, she defended her dissertation in front 455 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: of an enormous crowd at Breslau University. Clara, Yeah, Clara 456 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: was the first women in Germany to receive a doctorate 457 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,959 Speaker 1: in uh in like a scientific field, and she married 458 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: this loser. Yeah, and she marries this guy. Um and 459 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 1: she to give you an idea of sort of the 460 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: the wokeness of the time, the dean of the university 461 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: as he hands her her degrees as science welcomes each 462 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 1: person a respective of sex, confession, racer, nationality, which is good, 463 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 1: solid start. But then he added that he didn't want 464 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: to see the dawn of a new era where women 465 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 1: became scientists instead of homemakers. So like that was that 466 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 1: was the level where they're like, Okay, you did the work, 467 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 1: and we're we're woken up that we'll like, we'll let 468 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 1: you be a doctor, but you should still probably just 469 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: take care of some guy's house. What do you think 470 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: what do you think Clara had to do while he 471 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 1: was spouting this. Do you think she had to kind 472 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: of stand next to him as smiled and nod as 473 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: he said that he hoped that he wasn't going to 474 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: see the dawn of a new era. I mean, yeah, 475 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: I don't envy. I don't envy Hastani on that stage 476 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 1: next to that old buzzed you are not going to 477 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: envy her more through the course of this story, she 478 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: gets pretty fucked over in this in this whole tale, 479 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: so spoilers. So for a tragically short span of time, 480 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: Clara worked as a chemist. She was quite good at it. 481 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: There was no running away from the field when she 482 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: realized she wasn't like instantly the best like we saw 483 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 1: from dear Fritz. Um, she was very good, and she 484 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 1: got better. But love makes fools of us all. And 485 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: the person Clara Emma Ware fell in love with was 486 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: a mediocre chemist named Fritz Haber. They married, and Clara 487 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: moved to Karl's Rue to be a professor's wife and 488 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: to keep her husband's household. Yeah, it's it's a bummer. Um. 489 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: She didn't give up her career in science immediately, but 490 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: it seems to have slowly been kind of beaten out 491 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: of her by the demands of keeping Fritz comfortable and 492 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: eventually raising a family. Um. She and her husband did 493 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: collaborate on a textbook, and she would participate in conferences 494 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: and symposiums, But now that she was a professor's wife, 495 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: most of her colleagues just assumed she was parading things 496 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: that she had heard from her husband, and Fritz did 497 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: not strain himself to correct this misconception. So, m it's 498 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: nineteen hundred. Yeah, we still do we have any do 499 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:56,199 Speaker 1: we have any like correspondence between her and her family name? 500 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: And how's it going at this stage? Is she is 501 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: She's starting to feel like, oh my god, all the 502 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 1: struggle I did, the private shooters, I I got the 503 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: professors to let me into the lectures, I got my 504 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: what what they'll call in a hundred and fifty years time, 505 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 1: my g D equivalent, And now I'm here and actually 506 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: I'm a brilliant chemist. And what I have to do 507 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: is go to these parties and accept that everyone thinks 508 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: that everything I have to say is prior to my husband. 509 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: I mean, she must have just felt terrible. Yeah, she 510 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: was not a happy person. Um, and we will will 511 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: read a little bit from some letters she wrote a 512 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: little bit later. Um, but yeah, this is not a 513 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 1: great story for Clara. Now, Clara and Fritz did have 514 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: a baby boy, Herman Uh and Fritz. As soon as 515 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: he was born. Fritz instantly left his new wife alone 516 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 1: with their baby to tour the United States as a 517 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: spy for the German electro Chemical Society. Um, so he's 518 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 1: he's that kind of dude. You know, Taylor's oldest time. 519 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: You know, uh, get a woman pregnant and then go 520 00:27:55,200 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: spy on the American scientific infrastructure. Um, we've all had 521 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: that happen. Uh. Now, when Fritz returned to Germany, thoroughly 522 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 1: inspired by what he had seen, he continued to ignore 523 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: his family in order to do science. His wife wrote 524 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: at the time, fritzis so scattered. If I didn't bring 525 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: him to his son every once in a while, he 526 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: wouldn't even know that he was a father. So he's 527 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,640 Speaker 1: not a better dad than his dad was. I'll say 528 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,439 Speaker 1: that now. Clara grew increasingly unhappy and resentful of her 529 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: husband during this period. Surprise, uh, Most of Fritz's male 530 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 1: scientist friends took his side, chastis and Clara for being 531 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 1: a bad wife and basically bumming everyone out with her attitude. Um, 532 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: but not everyone felt this way. Paul Krosso was one 533 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: of Habrew's students, and he was also Clara's second cousin. 534 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: He wrote quote, she completely recognized the outstanding talents and 535 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: personality of her husband, but it certainly was not easy 536 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: for her to be the wife of a great man. 537 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: She sacrificed her profession for him, and she never really 538 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: found the necessary substitute for it in family life. She 539 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: had no interest in playing a prominent social role, nor 540 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 1: was she particularly good at it. But so this and 541 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: this second cousin of has says that favor as a 542 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 1: brilliant scientist. So his reputation is to grow. It starts 543 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: to grow during this period, and his his brilliance is 544 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: not in He's not one of these like Eureka, I've 545 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: I've come up with this conclusion sort of scientists who 546 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: buries themselves in the work and then comes up with 547 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: like genius new things. Like he's um, he's a brilliant 548 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: scientist in terms of his ability to manage teams of 549 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: scientists and coalate data between them and work towards solutions 550 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: and be like this is our goal, you need to 551 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: do this, you need to do this. Oh you found 552 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: this out that gives me this idea. Like that's kind 553 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: of what Habers brilliant at. And so when he's just 554 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: sort of working in a lab, he's nothing special. But 555 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: once he starts to get enough of a position that 556 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: he starts managing teams of people, his particular genius starts 557 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: to become known, and that really starts happening in like 558 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: around nineteen oh fourste Yeah, yeah, that's he's a he's 559 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: what you would call like an industrial chemist, and he's 560 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: a genius at that um he might be the best 561 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: there ever was. Now, starting in nineteen o four, Fritz 562 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: receives a letter from the managers of the Austrian Chemical 563 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: Works Company informing him that they had found traces of 564 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: ammonia in their chemical plant. Now, this is significant because 565 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: ammonia is the most potent source of nitrogen in UH 566 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: in nature. Now, nitrogen is the primary building block of food, 567 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: plants and animals needed to grow. Fertilizer is mostly nitrogen. 568 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: But nitrogen isn't an easy thing to come by in 569 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: the natural world because there's only so much of it 570 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: in the soil and it's depleted by growing crops. Now, 571 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: for thousands of years before this point, farmers would plant 572 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: stuff like legumes, UH and other nitrogen rich crops in 573 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: order to plow them back into the soil to keep 574 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: it fertile. But as the modern era down and the 575 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: human population exploded, the earth started to run into a 576 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: nitrogen crunch. Careful organic farming did not scale well to 577 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: large populations, and the long standing strategy of abandoning farmed 578 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: outland for new land stopped working in an era in 579 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: which all of that land had already been settled and farmed. 580 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: So in the early nineteen hundreds, prominent scientists start to 581 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: realize that there is a massive famine on the way, 582 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: when the world's nitrogen stores are going to be depleted 583 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: and the Earth's gonna stop being able to support all 584 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: of the people who live on it. Um. At the 585 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: moment nearly nineteen hundreds, farmers were able to replenish their 586 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 1: soil with fertilizers derived from huge nitrogen deposits in Chile, 587 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: but those deposits were set to run out in a 588 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: couple of decades, so there's like, yeah, yeah, bird poop 589 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: is one of the major major sources of iguano saltpeter um, 590 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: so they've still got fertilizer for the time being. But 591 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: everyone starts to realize in the early nineteen hundreds that 592 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: like by nineteen thirty or forty, everyone's going to be 593 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: dying because we just can't keep growing food um. So 594 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: the fact that these Austrian industrialists had found ammonia created 595 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: as a byproduct in their chemical plant could be a 596 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: huge deal. Um. It was common knowledge at that point 597 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: that the air around us is filled with nitrogen, but 598 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: nobody knew how to like get it out of the air. 599 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: Anybody who could figure out how to do that would 600 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 1: basically be able to create bread from the air, which 601 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: is kind of like the scientific holy grail of a day. Um. 602 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: But of course Fritz was not at all interested in this, um, 603 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 1: and he did not get involved in fixing the nitrogen 604 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: problem out of a desire to stop a famine. Instead, 605 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: what got him involved was the fact that a guy 606 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: he considered a rival, a scientist named Nurst, was also 607 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: working on the nitrogen problem. So it was it was 608 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: a dick measuring sort of thing um. And I should 609 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: note that Nurst did not consider himself Haber's rival. Fritz 610 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: thought this guy was his rival because nurns discovered the 611 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: third law of thermodynamics, and Fritz really thought that he 612 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: should have discovered the third law for thermodynamics. So yeah, yeah, 613 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: he's he's just that he's just pissed at this guy 614 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: because he came up with a yeah, he figured this 615 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: thing out and Fritz didn't, and so he hated him, 616 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 1: and so this guy starts working on the nitrogen problem 617 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: in Fritz is like, well, I'm gonna solve this problem. Um, 618 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: So out of wounded pride rather than a desire to 619 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: feed the world, Fritz Haber directs his considerable intellect to 620 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: the problem of sucking nitrogen out of the sky. Um. 621 00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: He gets a team on it and they start to 622 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 1: make progress, and he works at a deal with a 623 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: major German chemical company called B A. S f Uh 624 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: and they agree to fund his research if he can 625 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: figure out a solution, and they give him ten percent 626 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: of the company's net profits from his discovery. So Fritz, 627 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: you know, he he gets to work and he does 628 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: a really good job. Like his team blows through the 629 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: numerous barriers and setbacks that beat other scientists like nurnst In. 630 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: By March of nineteen o nine, they'd figured out how 631 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: to suck nctrogen out of the air and produce ammonia. 632 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: They showed off their new method in front of the 633 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: B A. S f and then Habrew threw a giant 634 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: party in a local hotel where everybody got so drunk that, 635 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: according to one of the scientists there, we could only 636 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,719 Speaker 1: walk in a straight line by following the street car tracks. 637 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: So they do it. They figured out this. This has 638 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: become to me known as the Haber Brush process. And 639 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: like I said, there's about a fifty chance that you're 640 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 1: alive because of this. UM. The world population without this 641 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: tops out at somewhere around three or four billion people. 642 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: What exactly how how did he do it? I mean, 643 00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: I'm not a I'm not a chemist. Yeah that I 644 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: wasn't going to but then I got interested to them. 645 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: It's what there's essentially a big machine that uses I 646 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: think they used uranium as a reagent in this big 647 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,839 Speaker 1: machine too, like condense air into ammonium and it would 648 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: produce like jars of ammonia essentially, and you know you 649 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 1: can turn that into a fertilizer. So like, yeah, that's 650 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: what they do. UM and Fritz. Fritz would get a 651 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: Nobel Prize for this in nineteen eighteen, which I mean 652 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 1: he really deserved. There's three or four billion people who 653 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,800 Speaker 1: are eating right now because of the Haber Bosh process. 654 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: It's one of those things that like it's kind of 655 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:38,800 Speaker 1: hard to imagine the modern world without without it. UM, So, uh, 656 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 1: this goes great for Fritz. It means not only that 657 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,439 Speaker 1: he's famous for solving the nitrogen problem, but it means 658 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 1: that he's going to get richish shit. But it was 659 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,479 Speaker 1: not a great thing for poor Clara Haber. She wrote 660 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,959 Speaker 1: a letter to one of her old scientific colleagues around 661 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 1: the time, saying, what Fritz has achieved in these eight years, 662 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: I have lost and even more and what's left fills 663 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: me with deep dissatisfaction. Even if it's general circumstances in 664 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 1: my own particular temperament are partly to blame for this loss, 665 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,800 Speaker 1: what's mainly responsible, without a doubt, is firsts overwhelming assertion 666 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: of his own place in the household and in the marriage. 667 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,760 Speaker 1: It's simply destroys any personality that's incapable of asserting itself 668 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 1: against him even more ruthlessly. So, wow, Clara Haber talking 669 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 1: about her husband, Um, things are going from bad to 670 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: worse in the in the Haber household. Yeah, and it 671 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 1: it sounds like he's you know, if you've ever worked 672 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 1: in like a tech company with like someone who's a 673 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,320 Speaker 1: brilliant coder or engineer, but like a total asshole, Fritz 674 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 1: seems to be kind of that sort of personality where 675 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 1: he knows now that he's kind of a prima donna 676 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg. Yeah, yeah, a little bit where he like he, 677 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: he decides and like Clara writes about that. She she 678 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: wrote in another letter, everyone has a right to live 679 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 1: their own life, but to nurture one's quirks while exhibiting 680 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 1: a supreme contempt for everyone else and the most common 681 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,840 Speaker 1: routines of life. I think that even a genius shouldn't 682 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: be permitted such behavior, except on a dec al at island. 683 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: I think Froyd's quirk was cocaine. Yeah, and that's a 684 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: better quirk. That is a better quirk. Yeah, Claire would 685 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: have been. One of Kara's flamative experiences was space Camp. 686 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering, Carrof, you encountered any well. I was 687 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: gonna I was gonna call him Haber's but yeah, that's 688 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,720 Speaker 1: call him what they are, um future. I think future 689 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: Habres probably were the kids at Space Camp who knew 690 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 1: all the answers when we were eleven years old because 691 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 1: they had watched Apollo thirteen too many times. Yeah. Yeah, 692 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 1: and Fritz's is that kind of guy, um, which is 693 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 1: a lot of that. His backstory makes sense if you 694 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 1: can of view him through that lens the whole Yeah, exactly. 695 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:45,240 Speaker 1: So uh Havebrew's incredible achievements led him to political power 696 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,240 Speaker 1: as a Jewish person, This was almost unprecedented, well Christian person, 697 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 1: he was a Christian at this point, right not? I 698 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 1: mean what you actually say. Your religion is as less 699 00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: important in Germany in the eighteen hundreds and your parented 700 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,399 Speaker 1: right it comes from a Jewish family. Um. But he 701 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: is like one of the first Jewish people in German 702 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: history to ascend to a high level of political power. 703 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: He was named Geheimrat, which is a counselor to the 704 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 1: Kaiser's government. Um. Which was like a really big deal. Um. 705 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,800 Speaker 1: So's he's a trailblazer in that um. James Frank, a 706 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 1: researcher who worked under Haber and a future Nobel Prize 707 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: winner himself, called his boss power hungry. Uh quote. He 708 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,279 Speaker 1: knew what he was capable of, and his fingers were 709 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:31,439 Speaker 1: itching to do it. Now, the First World War would 710 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 1: give Fritz Haber the opportunity to exercise all of the 711 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 1: power he had ever dreamed of. Uh. Fritz was not 712 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 1: a xenophobe. He didn't hate foreigners or seek war with him. 713 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 1: But once the wheels of war started turning in August 714 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 1: of nineteen fourteen. He saw it as his duty to 715 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,319 Speaker 1: support the Kaiser absolutely and without question. This was something 716 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,279 Speaker 1: that one of Haber's best friends, a guy named Albert Einstein, 717 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,799 Speaker 1: who you might have heard of, UH, did not understand. 718 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 1: Einstein was outspoken about the fact that he had no 719 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 1: loyalty to the German government UH and felt that it 720 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: was basically madness to be loyal to any government anywhere, 721 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,160 Speaker 1: especially a government that was as anti Semitic as the 722 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 1: German one. However, mean one didn't Einstein also contribute maturity 723 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: to the creation of the atom bomb? Yeah, I mean 724 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: yeah he did. He did during the war, but I 725 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: think that was less about his loyalty to the government 726 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 1: building the bomb and more about like, well, look at 727 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: how fucked up things have gotten. Maybe this will be 728 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: better than not doing it. I can't judge a guy 729 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty three forty four for being like, yeah, 730 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: maybe we need a giant bomb. Um. But in nineteen 731 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,799 Speaker 1: fourteen Haber said this, During peacetime, a scientist belongs to 732 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: the world, but during wartime he belongs to his country. 733 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 1: So that's what Haber believes. This is amazing I mean, 734 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,720 Speaker 1: this is amazing. This an amazing story to me because 735 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:56,720 Speaker 1: this is Hala was born in in bres Lau in Prussia, 736 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: which as you say, is now part of Poland, and 737 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,280 Speaker 1: in the short time off to Bismarck could unified Germany. 738 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,399 Speaker 1: He's able to create such essential nationalism that this guy, 739 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 1: this um Fritz would says, signed his first duty to 740 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 1: his country during wartime is his country. So how how 741 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,400 Speaker 1: amazing that this myth of nationalism in the space of 742 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: a couple of decades was able to be so strong 743 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,720 Speaker 1: that somebody who was previously a citizen of a different 744 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:28,279 Speaker 1: country felt as loyalty to Germany. Yeah, and I think 745 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,880 Speaker 1: you saw that a lot. There was a reputation in 746 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:32,919 Speaker 1: World War One that a lot of the most sort 747 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,920 Speaker 1: of fanatic German soldiers were were German Jewish Men because 748 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,320 Speaker 1: they were suddenly kind of getting like the first chance 749 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,239 Speaker 1: that their people had had to be considered equal citizens. 750 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 1: And I think for a guy like Haber with that background, 751 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: there was almost more of an urge to prove yourself 752 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 1: to the fatherland, to sort of reach that kind of 753 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:56,239 Speaker 1: acceptance that had been impossible forty years earlier. Um So, 754 00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:57,959 Speaker 1: I do think that's a part of it. And it's 755 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 1: one of the many tragedies of this story because the 756 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 1: things that happened after World War One don't end so 757 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,440 Speaker 1: well for Haber or his family as a result of 758 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 1: the fact that he was not really seen as an 759 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,839 Speaker 1: equal German citizen by a whole lot of Germans. Um So, yeah, 760 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 1: it's gonna be a bummer. But first, it's sounding pretty dire. Yeah, 761 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 1: but you know what's not dire the wonderful companies that 762 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,719 Speaker 1: support this podcast with their products and services. Um So, 763 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:31,759 Speaker 1: why don't we all take a break, roll out to 764 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 1: the lobby and listen to some ads. We're back. So 765 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:45,319 Speaker 1: at the point in which this story is World War 766 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 1: one has just started. Now, you guys probably heard a 767 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,160 Speaker 1: little bit about that one. Um, it was kind of 768 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 1: a big deal at the time. Um people don't talk 769 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: about it so much now because it's it's a little brother. 770 00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: Was kind of a bigger deal. But I'm a big 771 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,239 Speaker 1: World War One. Well, we're we're also interested in World 772 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 1: War One. And actually the reason our podcast is called 773 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 1: Sleepwalkers is actually an allusion to World War One. As 774 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 1: up there's a very famous book by historian called Christopher 775 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:15,960 Speaker 1: Clark called Sleepwalkers. How Europe stumbled into conflict I think 776 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 1: is the subtitle, and the idea basically is, as I 777 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 1: suspect we're going to be talking about shortly, that all 778 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 1: these new technological developments were happening at the same time 779 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: rail telegraphs, gatling gun and they'd never collided in this 780 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,840 Speaker 1: same way as they did when suddenly the major powers 781 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: were stumbling towards this conflict that none have actually wanted. 782 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,879 Speaker 1: But the technological infrastructure had its own logic, and so 783 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: this terrible, terrible, terrible conflict happened. Our show is Sleepwalkers 784 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 1: is not so pessimistic, but but but but our point 785 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 1: is if we don't study the artificial intelligence infrastructure which 786 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,319 Speaker 1: is being built around us and how it's guiding us 787 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,239 Speaker 1: towards certain conclusions, were at risk of a sleepwalking ourselves 788 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,399 Speaker 1: into geopolitical outcomes which we may we may not want, 789 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,319 Speaker 1: in which which nobody may want. Yeah, And I like 790 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 1: that quote about sort of looking at Europe in this 791 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,080 Speaker 1: period as sleepwalking into the war um, because it's both 792 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 1: accurate for World War One but kind of accurate for 793 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:18,719 Speaker 1: every massive disaster in history, like they all have the 794 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 1: same pattern, which is that a bunch of stuff changes. 795 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,880 Speaker 1: All the people in power assume things still work the 796 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,919 Speaker 1: way that did when they were kids, and like it's 797 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,799 Speaker 1: the it's the same thing that happened in um in 798 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,839 Speaker 1: terms of like the impact of social media and fake 799 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:35,759 Speaker 1: news and all of this stuff. Were like none of 800 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 1: the people who were uh in in charge in any 801 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:46,360 Speaker 1: of like the established parties and stuff new, Yeah, exactly, 802 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,880 Speaker 1: none of them paying attention. Yeah, I mean. And and 803 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,840 Speaker 1: by the way, today, you know, we're in the middle 804 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,320 Speaker 1: of this conflict about Huawei and between China and the 805 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,480 Speaker 1: United States. The founder of Huawei, who's a seventy four 806 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,240 Speaker 1: year old on the biggest tech people in China, Ren 807 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,239 Speaker 1: gen Fee, I think n I'm not sure it's saying, 808 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:08,360 Speaker 1: but ran something he said after his daughter was arrested 809 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:12,319 Speaker 1: in Canada and after the United States and banned US 810 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,840 Speaker 1: corporations from doing business with Huawei. He said, we expected 811 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,200 Speaker 1: conflict with the United States to come. We just didn't 812 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 1: know be this soon. Yeah, I mean, nobody ever does. 813 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:23,920 Speaker 1: That's a bit scarier. One of the things that kind 814 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:25,560 Speaker 1: of ties into the story of Fritz Haber. We can 815 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,719 Speaker 1: talk about the role that a company like Huawei has 816 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,480 Speaker 1: within the Chinese state, not just within the government, within 817 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,080 Speaker 1: the military infrastructure, and when you talk about in the 818 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:37,879 Speaker 1: United States companies like Raytheon and Lockheed martin Um and 819 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,320 Speaker 1: how they tie into our defense infrastructure in the Pentagon 820 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 1: and in in in that way, like the executive branch 821 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,319 Speaker 1: in the government. Fritz Haber's kind of the guy who 822 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,760 Speaker 1: was partly responsible for inventing that world the military industrial 823 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:56,120 Speaker 1: complex that did not exist really prior to World War One, 824 00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:58,560 Speaker 1: and the Germans were the first people to start to 825 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,000 Speaker 1: figure it out in a really concrete way because they 826 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,759 Speaker 1: had to because like the British Empire could afford to 827 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,880 Speaker 1: be inefficient, right because it owns the whole world. France 828 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:08,839 Speaker 1: can even afford to be inefficient. They've got a lot 829 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,440 Speaker 1: of colonies, they've got a lot of space. Germany in 830 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,799 Speaker 1: that war would get annihilated if they were inefficient. And 831 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:19,240 Speaker 1: when the war started, industry and science weren't tied to defense. 832 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,719 Speaker 1: Soldiers like generals and stuff would kind of every now 833 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:24,960 Speaker 1: and then except that like, oh, we have to upgrade 834 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,480 Speaker 1: our guns. Oh we have to upgrade. Oh we have 835 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:29,560 Speaker 1: to like take advantage of this new technology. But they 836 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,680 Speaker 1: were very slow and in fact, one of the big 837 00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,680 Speaker 1: fights prior to World War One between not just in Germany, 838 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,480 Speaker 1: but British military leaders would argue about this too, is 839 00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:39,920 Speaker 1: that it was a bad idea to give soldiers automatic 840 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,560 Speaker 1: weapons because they just waste bullets and it won't it 841 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:44,879 Speaker 1: won't increase their efficiency. They're too dumb to know how 842 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,480 Speaker 1: to use more bullets well. And also that I mean 843 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,400 Speaker 1: they've insisted on the cavalry. I mean the beginning of 844 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,440 Speaker 1: World Will One that the British were riding in red 845 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:57,440 Speaker 1: jackets on horses into German machine gun fire. Can you imagine, 846 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,680 Speaker 1: and the and the Germans. One of the things that 847 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 1: was revolutionary about the Germans at the start of that 848 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,160 Speaker 1: war is that like they had kind of dark colored 849 00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:08,120 Speaker 1: uniforms as opposed to like the blue pants the French 850 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,960 Speaker 1: were wearing and the red jackets and stuff. And it's like, oh, 851 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,120 Speaker 1: it turns out it's really good if you kind of 852 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:17,719 Speaker 1: can blend in people are shooting at you. Um, but 853 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,440 Speaker 1: the idea that like you would. Fritz Haber was one 854 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:22,600 Speaker 1: of the guys when this war kicks off who goes 855 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,000 Speaker 1: to the military command and says, like, we have to 856 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:31,239 Speaker 1: tie industry and science and arms production and the government altogether. 857 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,799 Speaker 1: Otherwise we're not going to be efficient enough to win 858 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,920 Speaker 1: this war. And he based a lot of what he 859 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:38,959 Speaker 1: was doing what was already happening in the United States 860 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,319 Speaker 1: at the time, like the like that was kind of 861 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,319 Speaker 1: where some of it got inspired from, because he saw 862 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,000 Speaker 1: these big endowments in the US that had been like 863 00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,040 Speaker 1: Rockefeller and guys had funded that were then making new 864 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,279 Speaker 1: scientific equipment that was then going into like the U. S. State, 865 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,319 Speaker 1: and he was like, Oh, if we could just do 866 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,719 Speaker 1: that more efficiently, we could stand a chance against these 867 00:45:57,719 --> 00:45:59,840 Speaker 1: countries that have a lot more resources than us. So 868 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,239 Speaker 1: if you're looking at the start of the military industrial complex, 869 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,480 Speaker 1: it's not all down to Fritz Haber, but he's one 870 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,440 Speaker 1: of the very very first handful of guys who sees 871 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:10,560 Speaker 1: where the future is going. And it's like, all of 872 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:14,080 Speaker 1: these parts of the state need to talk to each other, um. 873 00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,040 Speaker 1: And you can't just have industry and science divorced from 874 00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,040 Speaker 1: the military. They have to be working together otherwise we 875 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:23,840 Speaker 1: can't win this war. Now. When World War One started, 876 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,480 Speaker 1: the kind of plan that the Germans had was to 877 00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:32,320 Speaker 1: invade all of Europe simultaneously. Um. That was their very 878 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,200 Speaker 1: ambitious plan for the start of the war, um, and 879 00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,319 Speaker 1: the logic behind it was that Germany is not a 880 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:41,000 Speaker 1: really big country, and invading France, Russia and Belgium, like, 881 00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,600 Speaker 1: while it seems kind of crazy, they figured it was 882 00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:45,800 Speaker 1: their only way to win, to like knock out France 883 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:47,719 Speaker 1: and Belgium as quick as possible and then sort of 884 00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,799 Speaker 1: have a leisurely fight with the Russians and one of 885 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,520 Speaker 1: the Second World War, right, yeah, yeah, very similar to 886 00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:56,960 Speaker 1: their strategy in the Second World War. And there was 887 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,720 Speaker 1: a really grim logic as to why because Germany started 888 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:04,040 Speaker 1: World War One with six months of bullets and shells 889 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:10,680 Speaker 1: and as you know, being British y'all, y'all ruled the waves. Uh, 890 00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:15,560 Speaker 1: And so Germany couldn't get any more bullets anymore of that. 891 00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:17,160 Speaker 1: I mean, they can, they can make bullets, but they 892 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:21,880 Speaker 1: couldn't make gunpowder because gunpowder relies heavily on nitric acid 893 00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,719 Speaker 1: or nitrate, both of which are very nitrogen heavy compounds. 894 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,439 Speaker 1: And while you can make ammonia out of the air, 895 00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:30,879 Speaker 1: there was no way to make nitrate out of the air. 896 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:34,160 Speaker 1: At the start of the war. Are they from They 897 00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:38,000 Speaker 1: were buying from like Chile, which obviously the British navy 898 00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,560 Speaker 1: is not going to let Germany keep taking gunpowder in 899 00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:43,000 Speaker 1: when they're shooting at each other, Like, that's not gonna work. 900 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,160 Speaker 1: So the Germans start this war knowing like, we got 901 00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,480 Speaker 1: six months at most before the bullets supply ends, so 902 00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:53,560 Speaker 1: they've got to win this fast, and that's the hope 903 00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:57,200 Speaker 1: in August of nineteen fourteen. By October they know they're 904 00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,359 Speaker 1: not going to win the war fast. It's turned into 905 00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:03,040 Speaker 1: a gigantic ship show for everybody, and Germany's eating through 906 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,920 Speaker 1: their stockpiles way faster than they thought they were. So 907 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,640 Speaker 1: they realized in October, we've got like six to eight 908 00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:13,000 Speaker 1: weeks of bullets left. Uh, and then that that's it 909 00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:17,520 Speaker 1: for Germany. Like so, I've got a horrible premonition that 910 00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:19,760 Speaker 1: you're going to say necessity was the mother of invention 911 00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:23,239 Speaker 1: in a minute, It's sure as hell was. And and 912 00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:27,560 Speaker 1: Fritz Haber was the midwife of invention, holding necessities hand 913 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:32,799 Speaker 1: as it gives birth to. I probably extended that, but 914 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,120 Speaker 1: I gotta yeah. Uh. He figured out how to derive 915 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,880 Speaker 1: nitrate using a variation of the process his scientists had 916 00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:42,840 Speaker 1: already used to derive ammonium. Now this had two major effects. 917 00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,000 Speaker 1: The first of them is that it allowed Germany to 918 00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,760 Speaker 1: keep making bullets and explosive shells even under the effect 919 00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:51,040 Speaker 1: of the British naval blockade. The last three years of 920 00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:54,360 Speaker 1: World War One would not have been possible full stop 921 00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:58,279 Speaker 1: without Fritz Haber. That war is done in like February 922 00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:02,000 Speaker 1: March at the latest, nineteen fifteen. It's just over. And 923 00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,040 Speaker 1: just just to say, I mean, the Second World War 924 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,200 Speaker 1: does obviously get a lot more attention from everybody than 925 00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:10,359 Speaker 1: the First World War. But in terms of the people 926 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,799 Speaker 1: who died on the battlefield in World War One, what 927 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:15,560 Speaker 1: kind of numbers are we talking about it? And how 928 00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:17,279 Speaker 1: many of those were after it would have come to 929 00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:21,080 Speaker 1: an end if it weren't for haberbly about twenty million 930 00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:24,200 Speaker 1: dead in the war, probably at least sixteen to eighteen 931 00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:27,319 Speaker 1: million that would have happened after the period Germany would 932 00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,239 Speaker 1: have ran out of bullets without Fritz Haber. I mean, 933 00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:34,000 Speaker 1: that is just astonishing. Yeah, it is a tremendous amount 934 00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:39,480 Speaker 1: of of of human misery made possible by Fritz Haber's invention. 935 00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:44,360 Speaker 1: Um And while that's horrible for the world and horrible 936 00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:48,239 Speaker 1: for Europe and horrible for probably conservatively about fourteen to 937 00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:52,200 Speaker 1: sixteen million young men. It made Fritz Haber rich as 938 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,239 Speaker 1: shit because if you guys remember, he's still getting that 939 00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:58,840 Speaker 1: ten percent commission and all of the sales the b 940 00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:02,000 Speaker 1: A s F makes from as discoveries, So ten percent 941 00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:05,120 Speaker 1: of every bullet fired by Germany and the greatest war 942 00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:08,120 Speaker 1: in history goes right into Fritz Haber's pocket. So he's 943 00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:12,319 Speaker 1: doing fucking great on this, on this thing. Like it's 944 00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:14,279 Speaker 1: a solid move. This makes me think a little bit 945 00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:16,239 Speaker 1: of the of the Purdue story we've been looking out 946 00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:21,120 Speaker 1: recently and family. Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah, I would say 947 00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,400 Speaker 1: I would. I think it's less evil than that because 948 00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:26,560 Speaker 1: Fritz didn't do this to get rich, that was a 949 00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:28,120 Speaker 1: side effect of it. He did it because he was 950 00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,719 Speaker 1: patriotic and his country was at war. Like it's one 951 00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:32,920 Speaker 1: of those things you can say there was this horrific 952 00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:37,040 Speaker 1: human toll to it, but also like, would any scientists 953 00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:39,319 Speaker 1: in America with the capability not have done the same 954 00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:41,520 Speaker 1: thing if it meant the survival of our country? The 955 00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,759 Speaker 1: country yea, or Britain. There's very little Yeah, I guess 956 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:48,080 Speaker 1: there's very little patriotism involved in the development of opioids. 957 00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:51,920 Speaker 1: But yeah, exactly. But but at the same time, the 958 00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:57,479 Speaker 1: development of opioids was or ushered in a new wave 959 00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:00,360 Speaker 1: of pain management that this at least this country hadn't 960 00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:04,080 Speaker 1: really seen. Um yeah, at the expense of a number 961 00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:07,640 Speaker 1: of lives obviously, but yeah, and it's similar in that. 962 00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:11,920 Speaker 1: And it's certainly like anytime you're making millions of dollars 963 00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:16,080 Speaker 1: off of a war, it's pretty messed up. Well, there's 964 00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:21,200 Speaker 1: a conscience that is, yeah, overlooked. And that's the thing. 965 00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:23,040 Speaker 1: We'll talk about this a little bit more into actually 966 00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:25,000 Speaker 1: just a second here, but that's the thing that Einstein 967 00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,480 Speaker 1: fought with Fritz Haber over because Fritz was like, no, 968 00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,279 Speaker 1: it's my duty as a patriotic German to lend all 969 00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:34,600 Speaker 1: of my talents to this war effort. And Einstein was like, fun, countries, 970 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:38,239 Speaker 1: they're dumb, You're getting people killed. And was he a 971 00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:44,799 Speaker 1: little bit of a self hating Jew possibly Haber Haber, No, Oh, no, 972 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:47,560 Speaker 1: I wouldn't, or I guess he would. I guess he. 973 00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:50,080 Speaker 1: But obviously he was quite intoxicated with the fact that 974 00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:54,959 Speaker 1: he could be patriotic. Yeah. I think he was intoxicated 975 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:57,400 Speaker 1: by that, and I think there was some subconscious desire 976 00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:59,600 Speaker 1: to prove himself. I don't think he thought very much 977 00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:03,319 Speaker 1: about like it just wasn't important to him, Like he 978 00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:05,040 Speaker 1: was a German and that's what he But I think 979 00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:09,160 Speaker 1: if you grow up ultimately being rejected because of your religion, 980 00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:12,040 Speaker 1: even if you're not conscious of it, that this sort 981 00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:18,399 Speaker 1: of allure of patriotism is there later in life. Oh 982 00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:21,839 Speaker 1: absolutely and it It definitely is. Also, like he got 983 00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:25,120 Speaker 1: rejected from being an officer in the military for being Jewish, 984 00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,440 Speaker 1: and like, now he's saved the whole war. So there's 985 00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,480 Speaker 1: there that's got to be playing a part in it. 986 00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:32,719 Speaker 1: It's like I wasn't good enough for your army. Well, 987 00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:35,520 Speaker 1: like what would your army be doing without Fritz fucking Habert. 988 00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:41,719 Speaker 1: It's not unlike yeah, um, like you're gonna imprison my dad, 989 00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:45,279 Speaker 1: so now I'm going to punish the whole country. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 990 00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:53,440 Speaker 1: there's there's a little bit of that New Jersey little fairness. 991 00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:56,560 Speaker 1: Who among us hasn't wanted to punish New Jersey? That's 992 00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,960 Speaker 1: one time or another. Um, if you've ver seen Chris 993 00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:06,759 Speaker 1: Christie's plain outfit, he he is punishing New Jersey with 994 00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:12,200 Speaker 1: his sartorial style. Yea. Now, as the death toll rose 995 00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:14,680 Speaker 1: from the tens to the hundreds of thousands, and eventually 996 00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,520 Speaker 1: into the millions. The scientists of Europe began to debate 997 00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,080 Speaker 1: the ethics of lending their brilliance to the nation states 998 00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,040 Speaker 1: that mainly seem to want to use it to massacre 999 00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:25,400 Speaker 1: young men. On the other side, Habr's friend Einstein landed 1000 00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:27,600 Speaker 1: on the side of don't do that. He called the 1001 00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:30,560 Speaker 1: war madness, and he blamed German faith in the Kaiser 1002 00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:33,120 Speaker 1: for causing it. For it's Haber on the other hand, 1003 00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:36,000 Speaker 1: sign what came to be known as the Manifesto of 1004 00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:39,200 Speaker 1: the Nine three was a document signed by ninety three 1005 00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:44,320 Speaker 1: German thinkers and scientists justifying their participation in the war effort. Now, 1006 00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:48,839 Speaker 1: the Manifesto justified Germany's legal occupation of neutral Belgium by 1007 00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:53,160 Speaker 1: saying that Germany's enemies had quote incited Mongolians and Negros 1008 00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:56,799 Speaker 1: against the White race, which you may notice is not 1009 00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:59,960 Speaker 1: having anything to do with World War One. The Mongolians 1010 00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:04,520 Speaker 1: coming from I don't know that one its sessed Kaiser 1011 00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:09,680 Speaker 1: Wilhelm hated. He had this phrase the Yellow peril, and 1012 00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,040 Speaker 1: there's largest things. Before World War One, he was obsessed 1013 00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:14,759 Speaker 1: by the idea of Japan's tentacles reaching into Germany. I 1014 00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:17,880 Speaker 1: have no idea why, but the Mongol the mong I 1015 00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:23,200 Speaker 1: guess because of Um. And they were. I think to 1016 00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:27,480 Speaker 1: a guy like Kaiser Wilhelm, anybody further into Asia than 1017 00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:31,560 Speaker 1: Russia was a Mongolian like a Korean guy could have 1018 00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:32,960 Speaker 1: said high to him and even like look at the 1019 00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:35,080 Speaker 1: Mongol like he was he was super racist. It was 1020 00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:40,840 Speaker 1: yeah uh and he was the Kaiser Um not a 1021 00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:46,960 Speaker 1: New Yorkers feel about the Middle States. I think, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, 1022 00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:52,560 Speaker 1: and how everybody in the world feels about Texas. Yeah. Now. 1023 00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,680 Speaker 1: According to the book Mastermind, quote, Einstein watched with fascination 1024 00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:59,279 Speaker 1: and horror as fellow German scientists Heber and the Lead 1025 00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:02,320 Speaker 1: laid their ski as at the altar of Germany's war efforts. 1026 00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:06,800 Speaker 1: Our entire much play praised technological progress and civilization generally, 1027 00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,960 Speaker 1: Einstein wrote in nineteen seventeen, could be compared to an 1028 00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:13,240 Speaker 1: axe in the hand of a pathological criminal. His friend 1029 00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,600 Speaker 1: Fritz Haber. Meanwhile, as historian Fritz Stern put it, began 1030 00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:21,080 Speaker 1: to forge a more powerful ax. So Einstein's like, don't 1031 00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:23,680 Speaker 1: let science be a weapon, and Fritz is like, I'm 1032 00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:26,520 Speaker 1: gonna make science into the best fucking weapon anybody's ever seen. 1033 00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:30,480 Speaker 1: That's that's the kind of dude he is, so most science. 1034 00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:34,399 Speaker 1: I guess that's the point of this episode. Yeah, yeah, 1035 00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:36,520 Speaker 1: that's that's that's definitely the point of this episode. He 1036 00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:41,239 Speaker 1: doesn't he doesn't come across as great. Uh. You might think, 1037 00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:44,400 Speaker 1: having made it possible for your country to fight the 1038 00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,520 Speaker 1: war for three additional years and and literally saved the 1039 00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:50,880 Speaker 1: war effort on your own, you might be content to 1040 00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:53,160 Speaker 1: rest on your laurels if you were fritz Haber and 1041 00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:57,279 Speaker 1: just sort of enjoy making the money and letting your 1042 00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,279 Speaker 1: country pull both bullets and bread from the air. But 1043 00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:08,000 Speaker 1: fritz Haber was not done serving his nation. Yeah, this 1044 00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:10,760 Speaker 1: is this is he's about to put out his the chain, 1045 00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:14,840 Speaker 1: Like if fritz Haber is Fleetwood mac, which, of course, 1046 00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:19,319 Speaker 1: why wouldn't he be. Um So, fritz Haber looked out 1047 00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:21,920 Speaker 1: at the killing field that machine guns and heavily artillery 1048 00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:24,759 Speaker 1: had created, and he decided that what Germany needed to 1049 00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:28,080 Speaker 1: in the war was what he called a higher form 1050 00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:33,680 Speaker 1: of killing. Fritz Haber was about to invent chemical warfare. Now, 1051 00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:37,040 Speaker 1: poison gas had been banned under the Hague Convention, but 1052 00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,000 Speaker 1: all the major powers in World War One had at 1053 00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:42,320 Speaker 1: least fiddled with the concept. Little attention had been devoted 1054 00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,000 Speaker 1: to chemical weapons because they didn't seem to work very well. 1055 00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:48,319 Speaker 1: Germany's very rudimentary program was run by a scientist who 1056 00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:50,160 Speaker 1: had gotten the job because he was related to a 1057 00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:53,360 Speaker 1: high ranking officer. The gases he used were ineffective, and 1058 00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:55,839 Speaker 1: the artillery shells he tried to fire them with didn't 1059 00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,640 Speaker 1: really work. The program was widely considered to be a 1060 00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:00,680 Speaker 1: waste of money. It probably well, we would have died 1061 00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:03,200 Speaker 1: on the vine if Fritz Haber hadn't decided that chemical 1062 00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:09,200 Speaker 1: warfare was a fucking sweet idea. According to Smithsonian Magazine quote, 1063 00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:12,520 Speaker 1: Haber had a difficult time finding any German army commanders 1064 00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:14,680 Speaker 1: who would even agree to attest in the field. One 1065 00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:18,000 Speaker 1: general called the use of poison gas unchivalrous. Another declared 1066 00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:21,360 Speaker 1: that poisoning the enemy just as one poisons rats was repulsive, 1067 00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:23,720 Speaker 1: but if it meant victory, that general was willing to 1068 00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:27,000 Speaker 1: do what must be done. Haber, according to biographer Marghite 1069 00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:29,840 Speaker 1: Sezzoli uh said, if you want to win the war, 1070 00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:34,920 Speaker 1: then please wage chemical warfare with conviction. So Fritz Haber 1071 00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:38,400 Speaker 1: is about to do just that, you know. And then 1072 00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:41,680 Speaker 1: in the Second World War, the same logic was used 1073 00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:44,920 Speaker 1: in terms of ending the war in Japan with Rushimir 1074 00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:48,480 Speaker 1: and Nagasaki, and I think again looking into the futures, 1075 00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:53,600 Speaker 1: were developing new kinds of um you know, computer programs 1076 00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:58,160 Speaker 1: and and and cyber weapons. It doesn't take much encouragement 1077 00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:01,840 Speaker 1: once you're in an arena of flick to say, let's 1078 00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:05,080 Speaker 1: let the dogs out of the pound and see what happens. 1079 00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:07,040 Speaker 1: And it's a it's a it's a mistake we repeated 1080 00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:10,600 Speaker 1: twice in the twentieth century, and it's one I'm I'm 1081 00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:13,960 Speaker 1: scattled in the century well, and it was. It was 1082 00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:17,640 Speaker 1: even if you look at the creation of the gatling gun, 1083 00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:20,240 Speaker 1: that was the same in the creation of dynamite. Like 1084 00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:23,280 Speaker 1: both in both weapons, people were like, this is going 1085 00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:25,880 Speaker 1: to make war too bad for people to wage. And 1086 00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:29,120 Speaker 1: then a hundred and fifty years later, the descendant of 1087 00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:32,280 Speaker 1: the gatling gun is one of the most popular products 1088 00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:34,520 Speaker 1: in the United States. People are like so in love 1089 00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:38,880 Speaker 1: with essentially like the most evolved form of the machine gun. 1090 00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,959 Speaker 1: That like, it's an incredibly popular, multi hundred million dollar 1091 00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:46,280 Speaker 1: industry because like it turns out that no weapon makes 1092 00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:49,160 Speaker 1: war too terrible to uh to fight. We just wind 1093 00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:53,760 Speaker 1: up kind of worshiping the weapons because that's what people do, uh, 1094 00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,640 Speaker 1: which is not an optimistic line to go to an 1095 00:58:56,680 --> 00:59:02,480 Speaker 1: ad plug on. But maybe it'll be a weapons company. 1096 00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:05,520 Speaker 1: Maybe Raytheon. We'll we'll be we'll be sponsoring the next AD. 1097 00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:08,120 Speaker 1: I know a lot of my listeners need to buy 1098 00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:12,080 Speaker 1: guided missiles h for the wars that they wage in Yemen. 1099 00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:16,840 Speaker 1: A lot of our listeners are are waging violent conflicts 1100 00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:18,920 Speaker 1: in the Middle East and North Africa. We have a 1101 00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:20,920 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of a lot of generals and 1102 00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:25,280 Speaker 1: dictators fans the podcast, So hopefully it's a Raytheon ad. 1103 00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:35,560 Speaker 1: Here we go, We're back. We're back, and we're talking 1104 00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:41,760 Speaker 1: about Fritz Haber's obsessive desire to have chemical warfare become 1105 00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:45,520 Speaker 1: a thing. Now, there was a lot of resistance Fritz 1106 00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,800 Speaker 1: encountered to the idea of using chemical weapons, even from 1107 00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:52,680 Speaker 1: the German General staff, as we already discussed. Fritz, however, 1108 00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:55,720 Speaker 1: did not understand the horror that people had for these tools, 1109 00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:59,200 Speaker 1: saying death is death, however it is inflicted, which is 1110 00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:03,560 Speaker 1: not wrong, but kind of misses the point a little bit. Um. 1111 01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:06,600 Speaker 1: He was eventually successful in convincing the German general staff 1112 01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:10,320 Speaker 1: to let him create a chemical weapons corps. Fritz and 1113 01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:12,760 Speaker 1: his scientists set out immediately to find a chemical that 1114 01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:16,280 Speaker 1: would work for killing. This was not an entirely safe process, 1115 01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:20,920 Speaker 1: according to the biography Mastermind quote. On December seventeen, Fritz 1116 01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:23,240 Speaker 1: Haber stood nearby as two of his oldest friends at 1117 01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:27,040 Speaker 1: the Institute, Gerhard Justin Auto Sacker, prepared to mix two 1118 01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:29,720 Speaker 1: such chemicals in a test tube. Then someone called from 1119 01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:32,240 Speaker 1: next door he was needed in the mechanic shop. Moments 1120 01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:34,680 Speaker 1: after Haber left the room, the test tube erupted in 1121 01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:37,640 Speaker 1: a violent explosion, and the laboratory was splattered with blood. 1122 01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:41,480 Speaker 1: The blast blew off Just's hand, but he would survive. Sacker, 1123 01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:43,880 Speaker 1: who had been looking directly at the mixture, lay dying 1124 01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,680 Speaker 1: horribly mutilated. Haber came rushing back into the laboratory and, 1125 01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:51,440 Speaker 1: according to one account, collapsed in shock. Speechless. Held in 1126 01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:53,520 Speaker 1: a colleague's arms, he could only shake his head, as 1127 01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:56,720 Speaker 1: though refusing to believe the scene before him. Clara Haber 1128 01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,960 Speaker 1: also came running. She too, knew soccer well long ago. 1129 01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:02,000 Speaker 1: Oh in Breslau, he had been one of two students 1130 01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:04,320 Speaker 1: who tested her knowledge During the public awarding of her 1131 01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:07,919 Speaker 1: doctoral degree in chemistry, Clara proved to be very calm 1132 01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:11,040 Speaker 1: and courageous in the midst of crisis, ordering the institute's 1133 01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:13,440 Speaker 1: mechanic to cut open Soccer's collar so that he might 1134 01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:17,000 Speaker 1: breathe more easily. So Haber starts making these weapons. They 1135 01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:19,640 Speaker 1: blow up and kill one of his friends. He passes 1136 01:01:19,640 --> 01:01:22,680 Speaker 1: out in horror. His wife immediately runs in and starts 1137 01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:25,840 Speaker 1: doing first aid and like knows what ship needs to happen. 1138 01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:30,240 Speaker 1: So so there's an explosion, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever, the 1139 01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:32,160 Speaker 1: one I think about chemical wolf fare andwell, but want 1140 01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:34,480 Speaker 1: I think about poison gas, which is not explosive, right, 1141 01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:37,200 Speaker 1: some of them are like the chemicals that you mix 1142 01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:39,960 Speaker 1: can be explosive, Like they hadn't figured out the mixture 1143 01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:42,960 Speaker 1: yet and they were kind of sucking around and yeah yeah. 1144 01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:46,040 Speaker 1: So Soccer did not survive his injuries, and Clara came 1145 01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:49,160 Speaker 1: to be revolted by her husband's work in weapons development. 1146 01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:52,520 Speaker 1: She called it a perversion of science and quote a 1147 01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:55,680 Speaker 1: sign of barbarity, corrupting the very discipline which ought to 1148 01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:59,520 Speaker 1: bring new insights into life. Haber, however, was not at 1149 01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:02,240 Speaker 1: all just ated from chemical warfare by this deadly disaster 1150 01:02:02,560 --> 01:02:05,720 Speaker 1: or by his wife. Next, he had the brilliant idea 1151 01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:08,240 Speaker 1: to use chlorine gas as a weapon, mainly because it 1152 01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:10,760 Speaker 1: was easy and cheap to make. In quantity, he only 1153 01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:14,600 Speaker 1: really needed salt, so since artillery shells were in short supply, 1154 01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:16,560 Speaker 1: he decided to use some of the tens of thousands 1155 01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:19,400 Speaker 1: of empty metal canisters that were normally used to ship paint. 1156 01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:22,360 Speaker 1: He theorized that these canisters could be filled with liquid 1157 01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:25,800 Speaker 1: chlorine and placed all along the front in strategic locations. 1158 01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:28,720 Speaker 1: When opened, the chlorine would vaporize into gas and the 1159 01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:31,720 Speaker 1: wind would blow it into enemy trenches. Chlorine gas is 1160 01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:34,360 Speaker 1: heavier than air, so once it reached the trenches, it 1161 01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:37,200 Speaker 1: would go down into them, rendering the safest spots on 1162 01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:40,360 Speaker 1: the battlefield uninhabitable. It's kind of genius when you think 1163 01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:42,120 Speaker 1: about it, Like, he's not a dumb guy. It's a 1164 01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:45,040 Speaker 1: good it's a good plan. It worked. It's pretty horrifying. 1165 01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:49,680 Speaker 1: So you would leave paint cans. He really used paint 1166 01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:52,920 Speaker 1: can Yeah, yeah, big paint not like what we recognize 1167 01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:56,320 Speaker 1: as modern paint cans, but like these big industrial paint canisters. Yeah, 1168 01:02:56,600 --> 01:02:59,280 Speaker 1: and they would bury them in thousands of them and 1169 01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:03,360 Speaker 1: then open the ops. Isn't there a famous phrase, be 1170 01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:06,080 Speaker 1: careful what expression you make, because the wind might change. 1171 01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:10,320 Speaker 1: I've never heard that one, I think, so, I think 1172 01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:12,760 Speaker 1: I think my in England, I seem to remember my 1173 01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:15,640 Speaker 1: parents saying like, don't make too many hideous faces because 1174 01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:18,080 Speaker 1: the wind might change. But I mean, I would say, 1175 01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:21,240 Speaker 1: opening a bunch of paint cans full of deadly choking 1176 01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:26,000 Speaker 1: gas and next to where my soldiers were camping might 1177 01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:29,680 Speaker 1: give me pause. Yeah, it's uh, there's some danger in it. 1178 01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:32,560 Speaker 1: It's not, it's not, I mean, but it's the same thing. 1179 01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:35,600 Speaker 1: You talked to any any soldier who was in a 1180 01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:39,280 Speaker 1: frontline position when artillery was firing, and they will tell 1181 01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:42,560 Speaker 1: you that ship often winds up hitting way too close 1182 01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:45,240 Speaker 1: to so do air strikes. So like, there's always risks 1183 01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:49,120 Speaker 1: with this stuff. Um, and it was considered a worthwhile risk. 1184 01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:52,600 Speaker 1: So Fritz spent months training a special core of citizen 1185 01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:55,520 Speaker 1: soldiers or if scientists, soldiers whose job would be the place, 1186 01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:58,920 Speaker 1: and employed the new chemical munitions. They buried six thousand 1187 01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:02,840 Speaker 1: canisters around the stalemated battlefield of Libra and then settled 1188 01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:05,280 Speaker 1: in to wait for the wind to be right. One 1189 01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:10,120 Speaker 1: fine evening in April two fifteen or nineteen fifteen, not two. 1190 01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:14,560 Speaker 1: It was Fritz Haber, leading his chemical core from the front, 1191 01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:17,360 Speaker 1: gave the order to deploy poison gas for the first 1192 01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:20,400 Speaker 1: time in warfare. He started the attack with the words 1193 01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:25,680 Speaker 1: God punish England. A cloud of sickly yellow gas drifted 1194 01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:28,800 Speaker 1: towards the Allied lines, filled with soldiers who had barely 1195 01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:31,760 Speaker 1: gotten used to the idea of machine guns. The gas 1196 01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:35,480 Speaker 1: caused mass panic lance. Sergeant Elmer Cotton, a Canadian who 1197 01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:38,880 Speaker 1: was gassed at Ipra, called the chlorine gas poisoning an 1198 01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:42,560 Speaker 1: equivalent death to drowning only on dried land. The effects 1199 01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:45,000 Speaker 1: are there, a splitting headache and a terrific thirst to 1200 01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:47,760 Speaker 1: drink water is instant death, a knife edge of pain 1201 01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:49,800 Speaker 1: and the lungs and the coughing up of a greenish 1202 01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:52,800 Speaker 1: froth off the stomach and the lungs ending finally an 1203 01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:56,600 Speaker 1: insensibility and death. It is a fiendish way to die. 1204 01:04:57,520 --> 01:05:02,680 Speaker 1: Do you think he had tested the react action on well, 1205 01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:05,040 Speaker 1: I guess he had seen his friend die. He saw 1206 01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:07,200 Speaker 1: his friend die, he knew it killed. But I'm always 1207 01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:09,400 Speaker 1: curious about that. You just sort of it's like black. 1208 01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:12,240 Speaker 1: I mean, did I did he know the method of 1209 01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:14,760 Speaker 1: killing that the way in which people would die when 1210 01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:19,040 Speaker 1: he implemented it. What he knew is what would happen chemically, 1211 01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:22,400 Speaker 1: and what happened chemically when the body. Yeah, what happens 1212 01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:26,520 Speaker 1: chemically with chlorine gas is that when it enters your airway, 1213 01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:28,920 Speaker 1: it reacts with the water in your like throat and 1214 01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:33,480 Speaker 1: lungs to produce hydrochloric acid, So it literally melts its 1215 01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:38,000 Speaker 1: victims from the inside out. Now, the hundred and sixty 1216 01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:40,840 Speaker 1: eight tons of gas that Haber's men released killed five 1217 01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:44,160 Speaker 1: thousand Allied soldiers in a matter of minutes and horribly 1218 01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:47,200 Speaker 1: wounded another ten thousand. It opened up a gap in 1219 01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:50,080 Speaker 1: the Allied lines that allowed the German army to advance 1220 01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:52,480 Speaker 1: more than a mile, which in World War One terms, 1221 01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:55,000 Speaker 1: was an enormous gain for that point in the fighting. 1222 01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:58,200 Speaker 1: Haber was quickly promoted to the rank of captain. He 1223 01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:01,720 Speaker 1: had finally achieved his lifelong goal of becoming a German officer, 1224 01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:04,480 Speaker 1: at the small cost of introducing a fresh new hell 1225 01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:09,880 Speaker 1: into the annals of human warfare. Cool. It's proud of him, 1226 01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:14,880 Speaker 1: proud of him. I'm horrified and yeah, you know, unfortunately, 1227 01:06:15,240 --> 01:06:20,960 Speaker 1: Haber's destructive invention is very much with us today in Syria. 1228 01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:24,120 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's been used within days of us 1229 01:06:24,120 --> 01:06:26,880 Speaker 1: recording this podcast in Syria and it lib Yeah. I 1230 01:06:26,880 --> 01:06:30,200 Speaker 1: mean you see these videos of these children in Syria 1231 01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:35,919 Speaker 1: choking with their parents around them, and it's so very, 1232 01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:40,440 Speaker 1: very horrific, and and it's such an effective tool that 1233 01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:44,040 Speaker 1: that that Fritz Haber made. It's hard to imagine a 1234 01:06:44,120 --> 01:06:46,600 Speaker 1: time when it wouldn't be with us in the future, 1235 01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:50,200 Speaker 1: given how destructive it is both of life but also 1236 01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:53,280 Speaker 1: to morale. And what a what a disgusting way to 1237 01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:56,640 Speaker 1: see somebody go, somebody you love, somebody fighting next to you. 1238 01:06:56,680 --> 01:06:58,880 Speaker 1: I mean it really, I mean it opens the bowels 1239 01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:02,160 Speaker 1: of hell into the world. Yeah, that's a really good 1240 01:07:02,200 --> 01:07:04,960 Speaker 1: way to describe what he did. It's like he found 1241 01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:07,360 Speaker 1: a way to create a portal into hell in a 1242 01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:10,440 Speaker 1: place that was already hell and make it just that 1243 01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:14,880 Speaker 1: much worse. Um, it's pretty shocking. I've talked to some 1244 01:07:14,920 --> 01:07:18,520 Speaker 1: people who have been gassed with chlorine, some Golden Division 1245 01:07:18,600 --> 01:07:21,480 Speaker 1: soldiers in Mosele who got because isis deployed some color 1246 01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:24,240 Speaker 1: Because it's very easy to make chlorine gas so these 1247 01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:28,880 Speaker 1: guys had gotten gassed and survived, but like, um, it's 1248 01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:32,120 Speaker 1: one of those things. Even if you're a really hardened 1249 01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:34,960 Speaker 1: veteran and you've been through some ship, there's something about 1250 01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:39,720 Speaker 1: chemical weapons that is just unmanning, which is a term 1251 01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:42,479 Speaker 1: you'll hear a lot from soldiers in World War One 1252 01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:45,280 Speaker 1: about their reaction to the gas that like people who 1253 01:07:45,480 --> 01:07:48,000 Speaker 1: could hold up under shell fire and machine gun fire 1254 01:07:48,320 --> 01:07:52,600 Speaker 1: would just psychologically break um, because it's just it's such 1255 01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:56,840 Speaker 1: a fucking nightmare which shakes you to your foundation. Very 1256 01:07:56,920 --> 01:07:59,440 Speaker 1: a you breathe has been turned into poison. It's not 1257 01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:02,120 Speaker 1: like there's something as a bullet coming at your shell, 1258 01:08:02,200 --> 01:08:05,920 Speaker 1: coming at your it's it's it's literally this thing around 1259 01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:09,760 Speaker 1: you which is overwhelming and I can't I'm feeling uncomfortable 1260 01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:11,960 Speaker 1: just just thinking about. I mean, the drowning I think 1261 01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:19,120 Speaker 1: is probably exactly the right the metaphor of that drowning. Yeah. Now, uh, 1262 01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:21,680 Speaker 1: y'all aren't the only people who are horrified by what 1263 01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:25,559 Speaker 1: Fritz Saber had done. On May second, ninet, a couple 1264 01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:28,960 Speaker 1: of days after deploying chemical weapons for the first time, 1265 01:08:29,360 --> 01:08:32,080 Speaker 1: he returned home to Berlin to attend a giant party 1266 01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:34,160 Speaker 1: that was being thrown to celebrate his victory and his 1267 01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:37,720 Speaker 1: commission as an officer. His wife Clara was there, and 1268 01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:40,160 Speaker 1: she was furious with him. She thought that his work 1269 01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:42,839 Speaker 1: was barbaric and that the thousands of dead men simply 1270 01:08:42,880 --> 01:08:44,759 Speaker 1: proved to her that her husband was on the wrong 1271 01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:47,920 Speaker 1: side of history. Now it's unclear, but there's also some 1272 01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:50,719 Speaker 1: evidence that Clara had caught Fritz cheating on her around 1273 01:08:50,760 --> 01:08:53,680 Speaker 1: this time. We don't know exactly what happened, but we 1274 01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:57,120 Speaker 1: know they had a giant fight when he returned home. Uh, 1275 01:08:57,200 --> 01:08:59,320 Speaker 1: and whatever went down in that fight, we know that 1276 01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:02,759 Speaker 1: after Fritz went to bed, Clara grabbed his service revolver, 1277 01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:05,920 Speaker 1: fired one test shot into the air, and then shot 1278 01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:13,200 Speaker 1: herself through the heart. Yeah. Yeah, she killed herself. Um, 1279 01:09:13,439 --> 01:09:19,439 Speaker 1: probably largely due to the chemical weapons thing, which you know, 1280 01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:25,960 Speaker 1: an understandable reaction to your husband inventing chemical warfare. M. Yeah, 1281 01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:30,519 Speaker 1: I I would say, UM, I can see that breaking someone, 1282 01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:33,120 Speaker 1: especially someone who's been through as much as she has, 1283 01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:38,880 Speaker 1: Like kind of hard to imagine ever being okay with that. Um. 1284 01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:43,240 Speaker 1: And you can't really divorce in n Berlin. What do 1285 01:09:43,280 --> 01:09:45,760 Speaker 1: you do? How do you how do you let him 1286 01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:49,080 Speaker 1: know how fucked up. What he's done is that's what 1287 01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:51,800 Speaker 1: this is what Clara chose to do. Now, she left 1288 01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:54,559 Speaker 1: behind a suicide note we don't know what it said 1289 01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:59,040 Speaker 1: because Fritz had hit hidden and probably destroyed. Um. But 1290 01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:01,840 Speaker 1: the day after her suicide he left for the Eastern Front, 1291 01:10:01,920 --> 01:10:04,519 Speaker 1: leaving their preadolescent son with her body to deal with 1292 01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:08,200 Speaker 1: the fallout. So again, Dad of the year, does anyone know? 1293 01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:11,280 Speaker 1: Does this? Is there an account of the sun after 1294 01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:16,479 Speaker 1: he killed himself? Yeah, he killed himself as an adult, 1295 01:10:16,560 --> 01:10:19,880 Speaker 1: but he didn't live very long. Yeah. This he found 1296 01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:25,920 Speaker 1: her body to like, it's Fritz's it's he was super fucked. Um. Yeah, 1297 01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:30,080 Speaker 1: it's horrible. It's a horrible tale. That's a really story. 1298 01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:33,439 Speaker 1: Not a lot, not a lot of living the longest. 1299 01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:36,599 Speaker 1: I'm assuming not of his whole family, but I mean 1300 01:10:36,640 --> 01:10:39,720 Speaker 1: of his son and daughter and wife. No, No, he 1301 01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:45,280 Speaker 1: his son outlives much, not by much. Um. Now, under 1302 01:10:45,439 --> 01:10:48,879 Speaker 1: his direction, Fritz's direction, the German chemical warfare Core developed 1303 01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:51,879 Speaker 1: several new species of poison gas during the war, including 1304 01:10:51,880 --> 01:10:55,280 Speaker 1: phosgene gas and the now infamous mustard gas, which is 1305 01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:58,280 Speaker 1: even worse than the first gas. He had deployed hundreds 1306 01:10:58,280 --> 01:11:00,519 Speaker 1: of thousands of men were killed and injured by poison 1307 01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:02,880 Speaker 1: gas over the course of the long and brutal war, 1308 01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:06,840 Speaker 1: Somewhere around seven hundred thousand total casualties as a result 1309 01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:12,840 Speaker 1: of gas. Did it spark the British and the other Yeah, 1310 01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:15,360 Speaker 1: and and again as sort of evidence of how shitty 1311 01:11:15,439 --> 01:11:19,000 Speaker 1: kind to everyone is general. I think David French, the 1312 01:11:19,080 --> 01:11:21,760 Speaker 1: leader of the British Expeditionary Force at the time, when 1313 01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:24,400 Speaker 1: he hears that poison gas has been deployed, first thing 1314 01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:28,480 Speaker 1: he says is like, this is horrible and completely uncivilized 1315 01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:31,519 Speaker 1: and nightmarish. And then the next day is sends back 1316 01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:33,679 Speaker 1: home to say we need to make chemical weapons and 1317 01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:38,000 Speaker 1: start doing the same thing technology company escalation. Yeah, that 1318 01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:40,040 Speaker 1: is so fucked up. We're going to do the same thing, 1319 01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:44,360 Speaker 1: but like, fuck you for doing that. Yeah, we're not 1320 01:11:44,479 --> 01:11:48,559 Speaker 1: very good as humans at putting Pandora's ship back in 1321 01:11:48,560 --> 01:11:52,880 Speaker 1: the book. So we're just the No, we just keep 1322 01:11:53,120 --> 01:11:55,960 Speaker 1: we make more boxes. We're like, that's a fucking sweet box. 1323 01:11:56,000 --> 01:12:00,479 Speaker 1: I'm gonna get me a box like that. Yeah. Yeah, 1324 01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:03,559 Speaker 1: that's kind of the history of war. Uh So, World 1325 01:12:03,600 --> 01:12:06,600 Speaker 1: War One didn't go great for Germany, didn't really go 1326 01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:09,920 Speaker 1: great for anybody except the United States kinda kind of 1327 01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:13,080 Speaker 1: went awesome for us. Actually, when that was a transition 1328 01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:15,400 Speaker 1: from that the sun never setting on the British Empire 1329 01:12:15,439 --> 01:12:18,840 Speaker 1: to the beginning of the American Empire. Really yeah, yeah, 1330 01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:22,120 Speaker 1: it really was. Um And on the subject of war, profittyers, 1331 01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:24,960 Speaker 1: I think you can probably. I had lunch with a 1332 01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:29,439 Speaker 1: Chinese friend yesterday and he said that in China, Dick 1333 01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:32,879 Speaker 1: Cheney is one of the great heroes of China because 1334 01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:38,919 Speaker 1: his oil interress uh, driving the Iraq War when America 1335 01:12:38,960 --> 01:12:42,200 Speaker 1: could otherwise have been focused on constraining China. He thinks 1336 01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:46,400 Speaker 1: of opened the twenty one century to be China Century. Well, 1337 01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:52,360 Speaker 1: thank you, Dick Cheney. I mean, yeah, probably, there's so 1338 01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:55,160 Speaker 1: many other reasons to be angry at Dick Cheney. I'm 1339 01:12:55,160 --> 01:12:57,559 Speaker 1: not going to pick economic ones. But yeah, that's that 1340 01:12:57,600 --> 01:13:02,679 Speaker 1: seems like an accurate summation of events. UM. So, World 1341 01:13:02,680 --> 01:13:05,280 Speaker 1: War One not a great time for most people. Uh. 1342 01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:08,000 Speaker 1: Fritz Haber, however, would later recall the Great War is 1343 01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:11,240 Speaker 1: probably the best time in his life. Afterwards, he told 1344 01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:14,160 Speaker 1: a friend, I was one of the mightiest men in Germany. 1345 01:13:14,360 --> 01:13:16,920 Speaker 1: I was more than a great army commander, more than 1346 01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:19,880 Speaker 1: a captain of industry. I was the founder of industries. 1347 01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:23,280 Speaker 1: My work was essential for the economic and military expansion 1348 01:13:23,280 --> 01:13:28,160 Speaker 1: of Germany. All doors were open to me now full 1349 01:13:28,240 --> 01:13:32,200 Speaker 1: time for Fritz. The British chemist J. E. Coates, who 1350 01:13:32,280 --> 01:13:35,400 Speaker 1: was friends with Fritz, wrote in nineteen thirty seven that 1351 01:13:35,560 --> 01:13:38,360 Speaker 1: quote the war years were for Haber the greatest period 1352 01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:40,240 Speaker 1: of his life. And then he lived and worked on 1353 01:13:40,240 --> 01:13:42,799 Speaker 1: a scale and for a purpose that satisfied his strong 1354 01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:46,000 Speaker 1: or urge towards great, dramatic, vital things to be a 1355 01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:48,880 Speaker 1: great soldier, to obey and be obeyed. That is his 1356 01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:51,880 Speaker 1: closest friends knew was a deep seated ideal. Can I 1357 01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:54,599 Speaker 1: ask you a naive question, Yeah, why do you need 1358 01:13:54,640 --> 01:13:57,120 Speaker 1: all kinds of different poison guesses? Why Why isn't just 1359 01:13:57,200 --> 01:14:00,559 Speaker 1: the first horrible clorine enough? Well, you know, you make 1360 01:14:00,600 --> 01:14:03,200 Speaker 1: a horrible poison gas, and then people make gas masks, 1361 01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:04,760 Speaker 1: so then you've got to make a new gas that 1362 01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:07,639 Speaker 1: eats through the old gas mask. And like like it's 1363 01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:10,320 Speaker 1: this this, and also like can we kill more people? 1364 01:14:10,400 --> 01:14:12,920 Speaker 1: Can we make one that spreads better? Like it's like 1365 01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:17,800 Speaker 1: a generative adversarial network. It's like you, Oh, he wants 1366 01:14:17,840 --> 01:14:20,839 Speaker 1: me to explain why it's like a generative adversarial network, 1367 01:14:21,120 --> 01:14:23,519 Speaker 1: because once you develop a gas and then there's a 1368 01:14:23,560 --> 01:14:27,200 Speaker 1: gas mask, you need a new gas that's going to 1369 01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:30,120 Speaker 1: break through that gas mask, and then there's just going 1370 01:14:30,160 --> 01:14:32,720 Speaker 1: to be another gas mask and there's another gas that 1371 01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:35,439 Speaker 1: breaks through that gas mask. And that's basically how you 1372 01:14:35,479 --> 01:14:41,719 Speaker 1: train an algorithm. That's how you We even see evidence 1373 01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:43,960 Speaker 1: of that in nature outside of human beings. I think 1374 01:14:43,960 --> 01:14:46,840 Speaker 1: the Red Queen hypothesis is the is the name that 1375 01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:48,479 Speaker 1: they give for it. And like when you look at 1376 01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:52,160 Speaker 1: sort of chemical warfare between plants, how like one plant 1377 01:14:52,160 --> 01:14:56,600 Speaker 1: will develop, will evolve like a set of oils that 1378 01:14:56,680 --> 01:14:59,800 Speaker 1: it releases that like attract bugs that help it or 1379 01:14:59,840 --> 01:15:02,240 Speaker 1: at tracked like even that like can spread and like 1380 01:15:02,840 --> 01:15:07,160 Speaker 1: warn other plants in the grove that like zebras or 1381 01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:08,920 Speaker 1: whatever are coming to eat it, and then other plants 1382 01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:11,240 Speaker 1: in that grow will start producing poison so that like 1383 01:15:11,320 --> 01:15:13,920 Speaker 1: too many of their leaves don't get eaten um. And 1384 01:15:13,960 --> 01:15:16,760 Speaker 1: it's called the red Queen hypro pothesis from like a 1385 01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:19,439 Speaker 1: lion in Alice in Wonderland, where you have to keep 1386 01:15:19,560 --> 01:15:21,639 Speaker 1: running as fast as you can in order to stay 1387 01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:24,559 Speaker 1: in place. So it's this thing that happens all throughout 1388 01:15:24,680 --> 01:15:28,120 Speaker 1: nature like animals are constantly like that's nature, read and 1389 01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:31,360 Speaker 1: truth and claw. They're always evolving and changing to get 1390 01:15:31,400 --> 01:15:33,920 Speaker 1: an edge. And we do the same thing with guns 1391 01:15:33,920 --> 01:15:35,760 Speaker 1: and ship and that's what we're looking at in sleep 1392 01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:38,080 Speaker 1: Walkers as well. Is one of the big breakthroughs and 1393 01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:42,200 Speaker 1: artificial intelligence currently has been this UM what Kara is 1394 01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:45,639 Speaker 1: talking about, generative adversarial network. So that's when you put 1395 01:15:45,680 --> 01:15:48,920 Speaker 1: two neural networks against each other and you have neural 1396 01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:52,640 Speaker 1: network one trying to trick neural network to until the 1397 01:15:52,680 --> 01:15:55,320 Speaker 1: output of neural network one is as close as possible 1398 01:15:55,360 --> 01:15:58,880 Speaker 1: to perfect. So that's how for example, Alpha Go, the 1399 01:15:59,000 --> 01:16:02,439 Speaker 1: chess program uh not only beat the best human player, 1400 01:16:02,640 --> 01:16:06,320 Speaker 1: but beat the very best human programmed chess program, which 1401 01:16:06,360 --> 01:16:09,320 Speaker 1: was called stock Fish. So um, Stockfish had learned the 1402 01:16:09,360 --> 01:16:11,840 Speaker 1: history of every human game ever and the rules of 1403 01:16:11,920 --> 01:16:15,360 Speaker 1: chess and could handily beat any any human chess player. 1404 01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:17,920 Speaker 1: And then Alpha Go came along and all they did 1405 01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:21,719 Speaker 1: was teached. They told two algorithms to play chess against 1406 01:16:21,720 --> 01:16:24,360 Speaker 1: each other for a couple of hours. They played ten 1407 01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:27,360 Speaker 1: million trillion games of chess in two hours, learning from 1408 01:16:27,400 --> 01:16:30,080 Speaker 1: each other all the time, and then within half a day, 1409 01:16:30,560 --> 01:16:33,839 Speaker 1: they blew out of the water the previous best chess program. 1410 01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:37,360 Speaker 1: So it's interesting, you know, the nature of conflict, whether 1411 01:16:37,400 --> 01:16:40,120 Speaker 1: it's in the battlefield, whether it's between plants in nature 1412 01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:43,519 Speaker 1: or now, whether it's between computer algorithms, is all about 1413 01:16:43,560 --> 01:16:46,200 Speaker 1: this red queen hypothesis or you know, trying to beat 1414 01:16:46,240 --> 01:16:49,519 Speaker 1: each other and continually improve iteration. And and that's also 1415 01:16:49,560 --> 01:16:52,160 Speaker 1: something I celebrated instead of can value right, its rated design, 1416 01:16:52,160 --> 01:16:54,720 Speaker 1: whatever you call it. And I guess one of the 1417 01:16:54,760 --> 01:16:56,760 Speaker 1: few things that gives me hope about the future is 1418 01:16:56,800 --> 01:16:59,360 Speaker 1: how bad a lot of these systems still are and 1419 01:16:59,439 --> 01:17:00,960 Speaker 1: a lot of what they do. Like you can talk 1420 01:17:01,080 --> 01:17:04,080 Speaker 1: like these algorithms are so advanced, Ay is getting so advanced. 1421 01:17:04,439 --> 01:17:08,200 Speaker 1: Facebook still can't ban the Nazis, like it can't it 1422 01:17:08,280 --> 01:17:10,840 Speaker 1: can't identify a lot of the equipment that like, And 1423 01:17:11,640 --> 01:17:14,600 Speaker 1: I guess I'm like that part is not so optimistic. 1424 01:17:14,640 --> 01:17:16,840 Speaker 1: But like you talk to soldiers and stuff about like 1425 01:17:16,880 --> 01:17:20,519 Speaker 1: these incredibly advanced quarter of a million dollar weapons systems, 1426 01:17:20,560 --> 01:17:22,080 Speaker 1: they're like, no, a lot of them are total ship 1427 01:17:22,120 --> 01:17:23,920 Speaker 1: and it doesn't work half the time, and you wind 1428 01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:26,280 Speaker 1: up just like throwing rocks or whatever, because like your 1429 01:17:26,280 --> 01:17:30,080 Speaker 1: big missiles not not functioning or like like as as 1430 01:17:30,720 --> 01:17:34,679 Speaker 1: as fancy. I don't know. I I take some hope 1431 01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:36,760 Speaker 1: in the fact that things still funk up no matter 1432 01:17:36,800 --> 01:17:39,240 Speaker 1: how they represent the people who create them. That's why, 1433 01:17:39,360 --> 01:17:43,000 Speaker 1: I mean, especially in the case of Facebook. But yeah, yeah, 1434 01:17:43,080 --> 01:17:46,240 Speaker 1: it's it's bad, and it's also maybe what will save 1435 01:17:46,320 --> 01:17:50,040 Speaker 1: us from uh, all of these things that we keep 1436 01:17:50,040 --> 01:17:53,559 Speaker 1: building or it'll kill us. Well, humanity will probably save us. 1437 01:17:54,080 --> 01:17:58,439 Speaker 1: Humanity will probably save humanity and its shortcomings, not in 1438 01:17:58,479 --> 01:18:02,160 Speaker 1: how not in how it bands to is. Yeah, yeah, 1439 01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:07,200 Speaker 1: I think that's probably fair. So uh. The years after 1440 01:18:07,520 --> 01:18:10,599 Speaker 1: World War One were a steady downward slide for Fritz. 1441 01:18:10,880 --> 01:18:13,160 Speaker 1: He had always battled with nerves, some as the result 1442 01:18:13,200 --> 01:18:15,680 Speaker 1: of his workaholic schedule, and some surely due to his 1443 01:18:15,760 --> 01:18:18,160 Speaker 1: sense of guilt over his wife's suicide and all the 1444 01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:21,000 Speaker 1: things he saw during the war. His health suffered, and 1445 01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:23,720 Speaker 1: as Weimar Germany gave way to the Third Reich, so 1446 01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:26,600 Speaker 1: did his career. Fritz slowly came to realize that the 1447 01:18:26,640 --> 01:18:29,400 Speaker 1: Germany that he had loved and served so well felt 1448 01:18:29,439 --> 01:18:32,799 Speaker 1: it owed him nothing. One by one, Fritz's political allies 1449 01:18:32,800 --> 01:18:36,040 Speaker 1: and business partners abandoned him as Germany's laws became more 1450 01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:40,280 Speaker 1: restrictive for Jewish people, he wound up yeah, exactly. None 1451 01:18:40,280 --> 01:18:43,479 Speaker 1: of what he had done for Germany uh earned him 1452 01:18:43,479 --> 01:18:46,479 Speaker 1: any loyalty from the new government. He wound up fleeing 1453 01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:49,120 Speaker 1: the country and bouncing around Western Europe, living out of 1454 01:18:49,120 --> 01:18:52,000 Speaker 1: hotels as his health gradually failed him. He died in 1455 01:18:52,120 --> 01:18:56,040 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty four, miserable, nearly penniless, and knowing that his 1456 01:18:56,160 --> 01:18:59,000 Speaker 1: nation had completely abandoned him due to his Jewish blood. 1457 01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:03,040 Speaker 1: And was he I mean so around the same time 1458 01:19:03,040 --> 01:19:06,320 Speaker 1: Freud left Vienna for example, what was he part of 1459 01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:11,160 Speaker 1: a community of situations sellectual people in exile? It was 1460 01:19:11,160 --> 01:19:13,280 Speaker 1: he also exiled from that community because of what he 1461 01:19:13,320 --> 01:19:15,479 Speaker 1: had done in terms of the poison guess you know. 1462 01:19:15,520 --> 01:19:17,800 Speaker 1: Oddly enough, most of his he stayed good friends with 1463 01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:20,120 Speaker 1: Einstein his whole life, and he was very like his 1464 01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:22,960 Speaker 1: scientist friends really liked him. He's supposed to be very generous. 1465 01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:25,559 Speaker 1: He's he would was very generous with his money to 1466 01:19:25,640 --> 01:19:29,240 Speaker 1: his friends and stuff over the years. But um, his 1467 01:19:29,360 --> 01:19:33,200 Speaker 1: best friends as an older man were French and British 1468 01:19:33,320 --> 01:19:35,479 Speaker 1: chemical weapons experts who had been on the other side 1469 01:19:35,520 --> 01:19:37,639 Speaker 1: of the war from him. So all these guys who 1470 01:19:37,640 --> 01:19:40,840 Speaker 1: had made that sort of their their career, like they 1471 01:19:40,840 --> 01:19:46,320 Speaker 1: all got along, um became identity. I guess he didn't 1472 01:19:46,360 --> 01:19:49,120 Speaker 1: really have one. Um. There was a period of time 1473 01:19:49,160 --> 01:19:51,920 Speaker 1: where he was considering going to Palestine to like help 1474 01:19:51,960 --> 01:19:54,519 Speaker 1: start a university down there, but like his health wouldn't 1475 01:19:54,520 --> 01:19:58,880 Speaker 1: really allow it, and he couldn't formally immigrate away from 1476 01:19:58,920 --> 01:20:01,320 Speaker 1: Germany without having up a bunch of his money and 1477 01:20:01,400 --> 01:20:03,719 Speaker 1: taxes because of some laws that the Germans had placed 1478 01:20:03,720 --> 01:20:06,800 Speaker 1: on Jewish people who are trying to leave. So he 1479 01:20:06,960 --> 01:20:09,360 Speaker 1: just kind of got locked in a holding pattern until 1480 01:20:09,400 --> 01:20:17,000 Speaker 1: he died. So Einstein ended up being right that oh yeah, yeah, yeah, 1481 01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:20,640 Speaker 1: your patriotism means nothing. It will because your country will 1482 01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:24,160 Speaker 1: turn yeah yeah in a dime. Don't trust countries. Yeah, 1483 01:20:24,160 --> 01:20:28,400 Speaker 1: Einstein was the smarter man um, or at least the 1484 01:20:28,439 --> 01:20:31,240 Speaker 1: man who understood human nature better. That might be more 1485 01:20:31,240 --> 01:20:36,200 Speaker 1: accurate to say, um, which is probably why Einstein is 1486 01:20:36,240 --> 01:20:39,240 Speaker 1: more widely No, yeah, that's probably a big part of it. Well, 1487 01:20:39,280 --> 01:20:43,200 Speaker 1: and I will say uh, Einstein saved Fritz's family. His 1488 01:20:43,320 --> 01:20:46,720 Speaker 1: children and his immediate family were rescued from Germany due 1489 01:20:46,760 --> 01:20:49,599 Speaker 1: to Albert Einstein, like putting in a word for them 1490 01:20:49,600 --> 01:20:52,080 Speaker 1: with the US government basically like smoothing that all over. 1491 01:20:52,120 --> 01:20:55,040 Speaker 1: So Einstein was a very good friend to his friend 1492 01:20:55,040 --> 01:20:57,799 Speaker 1: even after his death. So you'd say that for Albert 1493 01:20:57,840 --> 01:20:59,880 Speaker 1: and the well, I guess the US government couldn't fall 1494 01:20:59,880 --> 01:21:03,439 Speaker 1: to a children Fritz's children, Yeah, yeah, I mean how 1495 01:21:03,439 --> 01:21:05,400 Speaker 1: could you? And also like by this point the US 1496 01:21:05,439 --> 01:21:08,120 Speaker 1: government was making shiploads of bombs and fertilizer using the 1497 01:21:08,120 --> 01:21:10,800 Speaker 1: haber Bosch process, Like it's not it's yeah, he was 1498 01:21:10,840 --> 01:21:12,640 Speaker 1: a net good to the US. We didn't lose all 1499 01:21:12,640 --> 01:21:14,479 Speaker 1: that many guys in that war. And by the way, 1500 01:21:14,600 --> 01:21:16,640 Speaker 1: the US took in a bunch of Nazi scientists after 1501 01:21:16,720 --> 01:21:19,519 Speaker 1: the end of the Second World War two War Soviet 1502 01:21:19,600 --> 01:21:22,240 Speaker 1: So when it when it comes to bad scientists, if 1503 01:21:22,240 --> 01:21:24,479 Speaker 1: they can serve the US national interest, I don't think 1504 01:21:24,520 --> 01:21:28,599 Speaker 1: it doesn't. Yeah, we didn't have any issue with Werner 1505 01:21:28,680 --> 01:21:30,720 Speaker 1: von Brown, even after he reigned a whole bunch of 1506 01:21:30,800 --> 01:21:34,000 Speaker 1: rockets down on London. We were we were fine with Werner. 1507 01:21:34,520 --> 01:21:37,160 Speaker 1: We'd probably hire a lot of ex Huawei guys if 1508 01:21:37,160 --> 01:21:41,000 Speaker 1: they were we take him. Yeah. Sure. All we care 1509 01:21:41,040 --> 01:21:44,400 Speaker 1: about is that you can do the thing right. Um. Now, 1510 01:21:44,479 --> 01:21:48,960 Speaker 1: while Fritz's immediate family was saved by the Nazi death 1511 01:21:49,000 --> 01:21:51,920 Speaker 1: were saved from the Nazi death machine. Most of his 1512 01:21:51,960 --> 01:21:55,000 Speaker 1: extended family were murdered in the death camps. And the 1513 01:21:55,080 --> 01:21:57,880 Speaker 1: final terrible irony of fritz Haber's life is that the 1514 01:21:57,960 --> 01:22:00,320 Speaker 1: chemical weapon used to kill so many millions of his 1515 01:22:00,360 --> 01:22:04,040 Speaker 1: fellow Jews, Cyclon B, was the descendant of the life's 1516 01:22:04,120 --> 01:22:07,240 Speaker 1: disinfect in zy Clon, which was developed by fritz Haber's 1517 01:22:07,240 --> 01:22:10,519 Speaker 1: own lab and by scientists that he was managing. So 1518 01:22:11,520 --> 01:22:15,280 Speaker 1: that is the last terrible part of this story. He 1519 01:22:15,360 --> 01:22:18,920 Speaker 1: doesn't not remind me of Bernie made off, just in 1520 01:22:19,040 --> 01:22:23,839 Speaker 1: terms of as a Jewish person who basically was selling 1521 01:22:23,920 --> 01:22:27,920 Speaker 1: dreams to middle and upper middle class Jewish people and 1522 01:22:28,200 --> 01:22:31,360 Speaker 1: organizations that were supposed to raise money for a number 1523 01:22:32,120 --> 01:22:34,840 Speaker 1: of Jewish causes, and including someone like l y z 1524 01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:40,519 Speaker 1: L who then ended up disenfranchising so many important post 1525 01:22:40,600 --> 01:22:45,920 Speaker 1: war Jewish organizations, foundations, people who had fled Germany during 1526 01:22:45,920 --> 01:22:48,320 Speaker 1: the Second World War, all because he wanted to be 1527 01:22:48,360 --> 01:22:51,960 Speaker 1: taken seriously in a financial industry that in the seventies 1528 01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:57,000 Speaker 1: and eighties was extremely anti Semitic. Um you know, using 1529 01:22:57,720 --> 01:23:01,040 Speaker 1: I guess money instead of chemical war fair, but yeah, 1530 01:23:01,320 --> 01:23:04,240 Speaker 1: it was intoxicated by it. Nonetheless, Yeah, a lot of 1531 01:23:04,240 --> 01:23:07,519 Speaker 1: the same psychological stuff going on. Yes, I mean not this, Yeah, 1532 01:23:08,160 --> 01:23:12,000 Speaker 1: ton't kill anybody, but no, yeah, but yeah, I would 1533 01:23:12,000 --> 01:23:16,519 Speaker 1: say Habrew definitely had the more negative impact. Definitely. Actually 1534 01:23:16,680 --> 01:23:19,839 Speaker 1: is this is where we get into the difficulty of 1535 01:23:19,880 --> 01:23:25,200 Speaker 1: Fritz Haber's legacy, um because he's the father of chemical warfare, 1536 01:23:25,920 --> 01:23:29,200 Speaker 1: and he invented the zyclon chemical that was used to 1537 01:23:29,240 --> 01:23:32,920 Speaker 1: feel so much of the Holocaust. But can we blame 1538 01:23:33,000 --> 01:23:35,160 Speaker 1: him for inventing the zyclon chemic? I mean that feels 1539 01:23:35,200 --> 01:23:38,120 Speaker 1: like we've given we given Fritz a good and well 1540 01:23:38,160 --> 01:23:41,240 Speaker 1: as I've beating in this show. But I mean you don't. 1541 01:23:41,240 --> 01:23:43,840 Speaker 1: You can't control the future what happens to your inventions. 1542 01:23:44,120 --> 01:23:47,160 Speaker 1: And that's another big point in our podcast and Sleepwalkers, 1543 01:23:47,160 --> 01:23:49,800 Speaker 1: which is, you know, technology is neutral. I mean, he's 1544 01:23:49,840 --> 01:23:51,559 Speaker 1: not neutral, but you build an algorithm, when you build 1545 01:23:51,560 --> 01:23:55,200 Speaker 1: an application, you can't control what it's used for. So Google, 1546 01:23:55,280 --> 01:23:58,679 Speaker 1: for example, recently withdrew from Project Maven and the Pentagon. 1547 01:23:58,840 --> 01:24:00,400 Speaker 1: But the point is when you're do out it being 1548 01:24:00,439 --> 01:24:03,920 Speaker 1: algorithms and artificially intelligence, it gets out into the wild. 1549 01:24:04,120 --> 01:24:06,439 Speaker 1: You don't get to say how it's used. Shakespeare doesn't 1550 01:24:06,479 --> 01:24:08,439 Speaker 1: get to say this is how you read Hamlet. And 1551 01:24:08,439 --> 01:24:10,880 Speaker 1: I don't think it's fair to say that Fritz is 1552 01:24:10,880 --> 01:24:12,640 Speaker 1: to blame for the use of cyclon be in in 1553 01:24:12,680 --> 01:24:18,160 Speaker 1: the Second World War. You're absolutely right, Um. And it's 1554 01:24:18,240 --> 01:24:21,439 Speaker 1: also like, if you've got the stuff you can clearly 1555 01:24:21,479 --> 01:24:25,719 Speaker 1: blame him for is like chemical weapons development, um, allowing 1556 01:24:25,760 --> 01:24:29,200 Speaker 1: Germany to exist in World War One for an extra 1557 01:24:29,240 --> 01:24:31,240 Speaker 1: three years. Like, those are things where he knew what 1558 01:24:31,320 --> 01:24:34,560 Speaker 1: he was doing very clearly. Zycoloni was just trying to 1559 01:24:34,600 --> 01:24:37,800 Speaker 1: make a good way to clean up lice, which is 1560 01:24:38,040 --> 01:24:42,360 Speaker 1: a pretty reasonable thing to want as a scientist. Um. 1561 01:24:42,400 --> 01:24:45,920 Speaker 1: In his like his legacy is complicated also by the 1562 01:24:45,920 --> 01:24:49,040 Speaker 1: fact that most scientists agree that between two and four 1563 01:24:49,120 --> 01:24:51,760 Speaker 1: billion human beings are alive right now because of the 1564 01:24:51,760 --> 01:24:56,920 Speaker 1: haber Bosch process. Um. The Again, it's not like they 1565 01:24:56,920 --> 01:25:00,920 Speaker 1: otherwise would be dead. They have been although a lot 1566 01:25:00,920 --> 01:25:03,160 Speaker 1: of people would have died because there would have been 1567 01:25:03,160 --> 01:25:09,280 Speaker 1: mass famine in particularly in Asia, um in Mongolia, in 1568 01:25:09,320 --> 01:25:12,080 Speaker 1: the Mongols, all of the Mongols, all of the Mongols 1569 01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:14,200 Speaker 1: would have had real, real food troubles, you know. But 1570 01:25:14,200 --> 01:25:16,000 Speaker 1: it does raise to be an interesting point, which is 1571 01:25:16,040 --> 01:25:18,760 Speaker 1: that the whole if you're trained as a scientist, and 1572 01:25:18,760 --> 01:25:21,080 Speaker 1: this is still the case today, you know your very 1573 01:25:21,160 --> 01:25:23,800 Speaker 1: results focused. If you if you can make something more 1574 01:25:23,840 --> 01:25:26,559 Speaker 1: efficient as an engineer or a scientist, like you've done 1575 01:25:26,600 --> 01:25:29,040 Speaker 1: a good job. And that's that's been the logic of 1576 01:25:29,080 --> 01:25:31,479 Speaker 1: science always, and it's very hard I think for for 1577 01:25:31,520 --> 01:25:33,599 Speaker 1: scientists to step back and say I'm not going to 1578 01:25:33,640 --> 01:25:36,639 Speaker 1: invent that thing because a it's counter to the training, 1579 01:25:36,720 --> 01:25:39,840 Speaker 1: counters the institution of science, but also like it's a 1580 01:25:39,880 --> 01:25:42,360 Speaker 1: small world of very competitive people. I mean, as you said, 1581 01:25:42,600 --> 01:25:46,040 Speaker 1: Fritz Haber was trained by Bunsen, hanging out with Einstein. 1582 01:25:46,160 --> 01:25:47,760 Speaker 1: You know that all these other scientists they want to 1583 01:25:48,280 --> 01:25:51,400 Speaker 1: naturally they have this sort of competitive instinct, and it's 1584 01:25:51,439 --> 01:25:53,880 Speaker 1: it's really hard I think also for AI scientists today 1585 01:25:53,960 --> 01:25:56,200 Speaker 1: or AI engineers who think like should I not make 1586 01:25:56,240 --> 01:25:58,800 Speaker 1: that thing because I know if I don't, someone else will. Well, 1587 01:25:58,960 --> 01:26:03,160 Speaker 1: especially now with technology companies where you're also incentivized by 1588 01:26:03,320 --> 01:26:06,720 Speaker 1: huge amounts of money. I mean, just the sort of 1589 01:26:06,760 --> 01:26:11,120 Speaker 1: allure of being a unicorn um is so intoxicating. I 1590 01:26:11,160 --> 01:26:13,720 Speaker 1: think that it seems like a lot of the time 1591 01:26:13,720 --> 01:26:16,840 Speaker 1: it's like I don't think Mark Zuckerberg, what did Chris 1592 01:26:16,920 --> 01:26:18,960 Speaker 1: Hugh say. He was like, we didn't know that we 1593 01:26:18,960 --> 01:26:20,679 Speaker 1: were going to create this kind of platform. We didn't 1594 01:26:20,680 --> 01:26:22,400 Speaker 1: even think about it at the time. They were, you know, 1595 01:26:22,479 --> 01:26:25,160 Speaker 1: sophomores at Harvard. So no, I mean, he wanted to 1596 01:26:25,240 --> 01:26:28,519 Speaker 1: rate whether which girls he thought was hottest. Literally what 1597 01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:31,000 Speaker 1: he was going for. I mean, and again it's not 1598 01:26:31,360 --> 01:26:36,080 Speaker 1: sort of I wouldn't, right, but I mean, at the 1599 01:26:36,120 --> 01:26:40,400 Speaker 1: same time, you know, the ability to broadcast, um, an 1600 01:26:40,439 --> 01:26:43,559 Speaker 1: act of domestic terror on a place that was created 1601 01:26:43,600 --> 01:26:45,439 Speaker 1: so that you could see how many hot girls went 1602 01:26:45,479 --> 01:26:50,280 Speaker 1: to Dartmouth. You know, it's it wasn't It wasn't their 1603 01:26:50,320 --> 01:26:53,880 Speaker 1: intention to create a platform for hate speech. It's my point, um, 1604 01:26:54,000 --> 01:26:58,479 Speaker 1: but it happened. And Uh, part of what we're going 1605 01:26:58,520 --> 01:27:00,640 Speaker 1: to talk about in the last part of this episode 1606 01:27:00,720 --> 01:27:07,240 Speaker 1: is what happened with fritz Haber's invention, because obviously chemical 1607 01:27:07,280 --> 01:27:09,560 Speaker 1: weapons are still being used, the haber Bosch process is 1608 01:27:09,600 --> 01:27:13,600 Speaker 1: still being used. Um, but there are some things that 1609 01:27:13,640 --> 01:27:15,839 Speaker 1: have happened as a result of the haber Bosch process 1610 01:27:15,960 --> 01:27:18,800 Speaker 1: that Fritz Haber could never have been guessed, but we 1611 01:27:18,880 --> 01:27:21,640 Speaker 1: still have to live with. I found an article on 1612 01:27:21,640 --> 01:27:24,760 Speaker 1: a website called The Globalist that both declares Fritz the 1613 01:27:24,800 --> 01:27:28,400 Speaker 1: greatest industrial chemist who ever lived um but also notes 1614 01:27:28,560 --> 01:27:31,760 Speaker 1: this quote the transformation of Asia and the emergence of 1615 01:27:31,840 --> 01:27:35,680 Speaker 1: China and India as giant modern first century global economies 1616 01:27:35,800 --> 01:27:39,479 Speaker 1: would never have been possible without Norman Borlog's miracle rice strains, 1617 01:27:39,760 --> 01:27:41,720 Speaker 1: but they could never have been grown had Haber not 1618 01:27:42,000 --> 01:27:45,280 Speaker 1: extracted bread from air. As his fellow Nobel laureate Maxwell 1619 01:27:45,280 --> 01:27:48,240 Speaker 1: now put it, Borlog's miracle strains of rice and grain 1620 01:27:48,280 --> 01:27:51,640 Speaker 1: require exceptionally vast inputs of the nitrate fertilizer that is 1621 01:27:51,640 --> 01:27:54,960 Speaker 1: still made from the process Fritz Haber discovered. These fertilizers 1622 01:27:55,200 --> 01:27:58,880 Speaker 1: also require enormous inputs of oil. This means the dream 1623 01:27:58,920 --> 01:28:02,400 Speaker 1: of an oil free world can never happen. Even if eternal, 1624 01:28:02,479 --> 01:28:05,519 Speaker 1: ever renewable free energy could be harvest harvested from the 1625 01:28:05,560 --> 01:28:08,360 Speaker 1: sun or cosmic currents of space, a world of seven 1626 01:28:08,360 --> 01:28:11,519 Speaker 1: billion people would still be desperately dependent on oil to 1627 01:28:11,560 --> 01:28:14,280 Speaker 1: make the nitrate fertilizer and to grow the crops those 1628 01:28:14,320 --> 01:28:17,519 Speaker 1: people need to survive. The twenty first century, like the 1629 01:28:17,520 --> 01:28:22,479 Speaker 1: twenty century, therefore, will still be Fritz Haber's world. So 1630 01:28:23,439 --> 01:28:26,720 Speaker 1: we are eternally dependent on oil as a result of 1631 01:28:26,720 --> 01:28:32,639 Speaker 1: the haber Bosch process. And there's more. I'm gonna quote 1632 01:28:32,680 --> 01:28:37,040 Speaker 1: next from So during World War One, Germany topped out 1633 01:28:37,200 --> 01:28:39,599 Speaker 1: something like a hundred thousand tons of nitrogen per year 1634 01:28:39,800 --> 01:28:43,519 Speaker 1: using the haber Bosh method. Uh. Worldwide, we currently extract 1635 01:28:43,560 --> 01:28:46,040 Speaker 1: something like a hundred million tons of nitrogen out of 1636 01:28:46,040 --> 01:28:49,320 Speaker 1: the atmosphere every year UM. And this has had a 1637 01:28:49,360 --> 01:28:53,479 Speaker 1: profound impact on our biosphere. I'm gonna quote now from 1638 01:28:53,520 --> 01:28:59,160 Speaker 1: that biography mastermind quote leftover. Fertilizer is slowly killing streams, lakes, 1639 01:28:59,200 --> 01:29:02,360 Speaker 1: and coastal eco systems across the Northern Hemisphere. The changes 1640 01:29:02,360 --> 01:29:04,640 Speaker 1: are gradual, taking place over decades, so it takes a 1641 01:29:04,680 --> 01:29:08,400 Speaker 1: patient it'da notice. Long term studies, however, revealed dramatic changes. 1642 01:29:08,680 --> 01:29:11,400 Speaker 1: Fifty years ago. For instance, eel grass covered most of 1643 01:29:11,439 --> 01:29:15,439 Speaker 1: the Wauqua Bay and Massachusetts. Then came suburban development nearby. 1644 01:29:15,720 --> 01:29:19,600 Speaker 1: Human sewage containing nitrogen from food taken from a thousand fields, 1645 01:29:19,680 --> 01:29:22,439 Speaker 1: leached into the bay and increase in quantities. Thick beds 1646 01:29:22,479 --> 01:29:24,880 Speaker 1: of seaweed began to grow, crowding out the eel grass 1647 01:29:24,880 --> 01:29:27,200 Speaker 1: and with it an entire web of natural life from 1648 01:29:27,240 --> 01:29:30,479 Speaker 1: scallops to small fish. When nitrogen oxides in the air 1649 01:29:30,520 --> 01:29:33,360 Speaker 1: come into contact with droplets of watering the clouds nitric 1650 01:29:33,400 --> 01:29:36,080 Speaker 1: acid forms, it returns to the earth as acid rain, 1651 01:29:36,240 --> 01:29:39,839 Speaker 1: destroying forests and poisoning streams. At the same time, nitrogen 1652 01:29:39,960 --> 01:29:43,439 Speaker 1: rich rainfall also fertilizes the land, even land that doesn't 1653 01:29:43,520 --> 01:29:46,719 Speaker 1: need or want fertilizer. Every acre of the Netherlands, whether 1654 01:29:46,840 --> 01:29:50,120 Speaker 1: field or forest, now receives as much nitrogen from rainwater 1655 01:29:50,160 --> 01:29:53,120 Speaker 1: as North American farmers typically apply to their wheat fields 1656 01:29:53,120 --> 01:29:55,960 Speaker 1: on purpose. It is much more than most African farmers 1657 01:29:55,960 --> 01:29:58,840 Speaker 1: could dream of buying. Even smaller doses are enough to 1658 01:29:58,840 --> 01:30:02,960 Speaker 1: play ecological have In forests and wild grasslands, plant species 1659 01:30:02,960 --> 01:30:06,400 Speaker 1: that thrive in the presence of nitrogen start growing uncontrollably, 1660 01:30:06,479 --> 01:30:09,080 Speaker 1: crowding out other plants and even animals that aren't used 1661 01:30:09,080 --> 01:30:12,879 Speaker 1: to such conditions. The result is a depleted ecosystem supporting 1662 01:30:12,880 --> 01:30:16,040 Speaker 1: a less rich and complex web of life. And that, too, 1663 01:30:16,520 --> 01:30:25,679 Speaker 1: is the world that Fritz Haber has left us so complicated. Guy, Yeah, wow, 1664 01:30:25,840 --> 01:30:29,599 Speaker 1: that's really that's super super interesting. I guess when did 1665 01:30:29,600 --> 01:30:33,360 Speaker 1: we start to realize how how the presence of fertilizer 1666 01:30:33,640 --> 01:30:37,080 Speaker 1: throughout the ecosystem was such a such a such a 1667 01:30:37,200 --> 01:30:40,120 Speaker 1: terrible cost and burden to the earth. Was that like 1668 01:30:40,120 --> 01:30:42,280 Speaker 1: a seventies discovery, I mean, don't I don't know when. 1669 01:30:42,560 --> 01:30:45,280 Speaker 1: I feel like that's when it started, and I don't 1670 01:30:45,320 --> 01:30:47,719 Speaker 1: think we've really got a great handle on it until 1671 01:30:47,760 --> 01:30:49,880 Speaker 1: in the last like twenty or thirty years that like 1672 01:30:50,080 --> 01:30:53,360 Speaker 1: on a wide scale scientist start to realize like, oh, ship, 1673 01:30:53,479 --> 01:30:57,439 Speaker 1: this is a problem. Like, yeah, we've got some issues here, guys, 1674 01:30:58,560 --> 01:31:01,320 Speaker 1: um and we're sort of Dylan Net. Oh ship, this 1675 01:31:01,400 --> 01:31:03,240 Speaker 1: is a problem, but we don't really know what to 1676 01:31:03,320 --> 01:31:07,160 Speaker 1: do stage of it. So well. Tom Friedman, the New 1677 01:31:07,240 --> 01:31:12,679 Speaker 1: York Times columnist who previously wrote a very good book 1678 01:31:12,720 --> 01:31:15,040 Speaker 1: in the in the nineties called From Beirut to Jerusalem 1679 01:31:15,040 --> 01:31:17,280 Speaker 1: The History of the Middle East, is very interested in 1680 01:31:17,600 --> 01:31:21,320 Speaker 1: climate change, and he traces the origins of the Syrian 1681 01:31:21,400 --> 01:31:26,240 Speaker 1: Civil War back to famine, otherwhile the rising climate change 1682 01:31:26,240 --> 01:31:29,000 Speaker 1: and the rising price of wheat which sparked the first 1683 01:31:29,040 --> 01:31:32,639 Speaker 1: protests against as Sad. So the wheel comes full circle 1684 01:31:32,720 --> 01:31:35,000 Speaker 1: in Syria with the civil war kicked off by wheat 1685 01:31:35,000 --> 01:31:49,000 Speaker 1: prices and prosecuted using chemical gases. Yep, thanks for its Yeah, wow, yeah, 1686 01:31:49,320 --> 01:31:53,840 Speaker 1: what a mess. Well, that's the episode. That's what I've got. 1687 01:31:54,479 --> 01:31:56,880 Speaker 1: You guys wanna want to plug your your plug doubles 1688 01:31:57,000 --> 01:32:01,040 Speaker 1: as we as we lead ourselves out. Yeah, so uh 1689 01:32:01,600 --> 01:32:05,320 Speaker 1: care again. We'd love for you guys to check out 1690 01:32:05,360 --> 01:32:10,160 Speaker 1: Sleepwalker's podcast, which covers really all things AI, all the 1691 01:32:10,200 --> 01:32:17,080 Speaker 1: human touch points, healthcare, agriculture, love, creativity, yeah, food, and 1692 01:32:17,120 --> 01:32:21,000 Speaker 1: Sleepwalkers is not quite as bleak as today's story. Um 1693 01:32:21,200 --> 01:32:23,880 Speaker 1: we look at some of the positive potential of new 1694 01:32:23,920 --> 01:32:28,240 Speaker 1: technology as well. I mean, much like Fritz's Fritze's dual 1695 01:32:28,360 --> 01:32:32,680 Speaker 1: use career, which which launched both poisonous gases and fertilizers 1696 01:32:32,680 --> 01:32:36,160 Speaker 1: which fed the world albeit and are now poisoning the world. Um. 1697 01:32:36,240 --> 01:32:39,800 Speaker 1: AI technology which we talk about in Sleepwalkers has profound 1698 01:32:39,960 --> 01:32:42,599 Speaker 1: potential to change our lives the better. Is already doing 1699 01:32:42,680 --> 01:32:47,600 Speaker 1: so in terms of diagnostics, in terms of you know, 1700 01:32:47,640 --> 01:32:50,360 Speaker 1: the ability, for example, of journalists look through things like 1701 01:32:50,400 --> 01:32:53,639 Speaker 1: the Panama papers and identify bad actors because the power 1702 01:32:53,640 --> 01:32:56,760 Speaker 1: of data processing is so much better. Um. At the 1703 01:32:56,800 --> 01:32:59,880 Speaker 1: same time, you know, these technologies without careful thought and 1704 01:33:00,080 --> 01:33:04,360 Speaker 1: constraint can push us into into into really hellish outcomes. 1705 01:33:04,400 --> 01:33:06,719 Speaker 1: And so you know, we still live in a country 1706 01:33:06,760 --> 01:33:10,920 Speaker 1: which is democratic, and we can, through our votes at 1707 01:33:10,920 --> 01:33:15,000 Speaker 1: the ballot box and through public agitation, have some role 1708 01:33:15,120 --> 01:33:17,240 Speaker 1: in our own future. And so you know, we we 1709 01:33:17,280 --> 01:33:21,160 Speaker 1: think it's important to talk about potential bad outcomes because 1710 01:33:21,320 --> 01:33:23,799 Speaker 1: if we if we wake up and and take action, 1711 01:33:23,880 --> 01:33:27,799 Speaker 1: we can perhaps you know, ensure a more safe and 1712 01:33:27,840 --> 01:33:33,720 Speaker 1: uncomfortable future for ourselves. Yeah. That's uh. That's the optimistic 1713 01:33:34,240 --> 01:33:37,519 Speaker 1: uh point of view, and I like ending on the 1714 01:33:37,560 --> 01:33:40,839 Speaker 1: optimistic point of view, even though my episodes barely inspire 1715 01:33:40,920 --> 01:33:43,800 Speaker 1: much optimism of people. So um, try to take that 1716 01:33:43,920 --> 01:33:47,519 Speaker 1: to heart listeners and visit our website behind the Bastards 1717 01:33:47,520 --> 01:33:49,800 Speaker 1: dot com. Find us on Twitter and Instagram at their 1718 01:33:49,800 --> 01:33:52,479 Speaker 1: Bastards pod. You can find me on Twitter and I 1719 01:33:52,600 --> 01:33:55,880 Speaker 1: right okay, and uh. You can buy shirts on Tea 1720 01:33:55,920 --> 01:34:00,799 Speaker 1: Public that have funny drawings and Googles on them, cups 1721 01:34:00,840 --> 01:34:03,840 Speaker 1: and such. That's that's it. That's all I got. That's 1722 01:34:03,840 --> 01:34:06,760 Speaker 1: all I got for plugs at the end of the episode. 1723 01:34:06,840 --> 01:34:12,280 Speaker 1: So uh, go home, enjoy some very nitrogen rich food 1724 01:34:12,360 --> 01:34:15,000 Speaker 1: because everything you eat is filled with nitrogen thanks to 1725 01:34:15,040 --> 01:34:20,639 Speaker 1: frit saber Um. Maybe enjoy some explosives or chlorine gas. 1726 01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:24,400 Speaker 1: Don't enjoy some chlorine games, hug a cat or something. 1727 01:34:24,840 --> 01:34:29,479 Speaker 1: Uh and uh yeah, I have a good debt. That's it. 1728 01:34:29,600 --> 01:34:31,200 Speaker 1: That's the episode.