WEBVTT - David & Mary Boies 0:00:14.836 --> 0:00:29.516 Pushkin. Hi, I'm Phil Donahue and I'm Marlo Thomas, and 0:00:29.636 --> 0:00:32.556 we're going on a series of double dates to find 0:00:32.596 --> 0:00:40.916 out what makes a marriage last. I don't often find 0:00:40.956 --> 0:00:43.876 myself hanging out with a pair of heavy hitting lawyers 0:00:44.156 --> 0:00:46.876 just for fun. But when Marlo and I had the 0:00:46.956 --> 0:00:50.236 chance to sit down with David and Mary boys, that's 0:00:50.276 --> 0:00:54.396 exactly what it was. They're an incredible couple. I mean, 0:00:54.436 --> 0:00:57.716 when David met Mary, she was the assistant director for 0:00:57.796 --> 0:01:02.036 the Domestic Policy Staff under President Jimmy Carter and David 0:01:02.196 --> 0:01:05.196 was chief counsel for Ted Kennedy. Well, you don't get 0:01:05.236 --> 0:01:09.036 more power couple than that, certainly not. When we say 0:01:09.196 --> 0:01:11.476 d down to chat with them, we were eager to 0:01:11.516 --> 0:01:15.316 know about their first meeting. Were they cautious lawyers or 0:01:15.396 --> 0:01:20.116 was the attraction immediate? It took me about twelve seconds. 0:01:21.956 --> 0:01:27.916 He wasn't married, always good he was really smart, he 0:01:27.996 --> 0:01:31.316 was very good looking, and he had a little money 0:01:31.316 --> 0:01:34.796 in his pocket. So and he was a nice guy 0:01:35.276 --> 0:01:38.076 would have liked so it took me twelve seconds. Took 0:01:38.156 --> 0:01:40.516 him a while, No, it didn't take me very long. 0:01:41.316 --> 0:01:44.036 But what did you think, did you? I thought she 0:01:44.196 --> 0:01:51.276 was really sexy, which at that stage was very high 0:01:51.476 --> 0:01:56.196 priority for me and very smart. Yeah, And I asked 0:01:56.196 --> 0:01:59.556 her out the next time I was in Washington. But 0:01:59.676 --> 0:02:04.156 we were negotiating at that time because Kennedy. We were 0:02:04.196 --> 0:02:08.676 working on airline deregulation, and Kennedy had a bill that 0:02:08.756 --> 0:02:13.756 was very radical. President Carter supported a bill that was 0:02:13.876 --> 0:02:18.836 more moderate, and so we had negotiating sessions with me 0:02:18.956 --> 0:02:23.436 and six or eight other people from the administration, different agencies, 0:02:24.076 --> 0:02:28.076 and then him and I said to my colleagues, we 0:02:28.196 --> 0:02:31.756 are not negotiating with this man. And they said, well why, 0:02:32.276 --> 0:02:34.596 I said, no offense, But he's a hundred times smarter 0:02:34.676 --> 0:02:40.356 than all of us put together. That was nineteen seventy 0:02:40.396 --> 0:02:45.036 and you get married, and that was a long time. 0:02:45.036 --> 0:02:50.636 You waited. Well, he'd been married twice, yes, And people 0:02:50.676 --> 0:02:55.116 were warning me, you know, this guy marries, but he 0:02:55.156 --> 0:02:58.436 doesn't really stay with people. And that was fine with 0:02:58.516 --> 0:03:01.076 me because I'd already been married. I sort of got 0:03:01.116 --> 0:03:03.916 that out of my system. But once I moved to 0:03:03.956 --> 0:03:06.316 New York, I thought, I'm not going to live in 0:03:06.356 --> 0:03:09.876 New York and not be married. So are we getting 0:03:09.876 --> 0:03:13.636 married or am I moving back to Washington. That's good. 0:03:13.956 --> 0:03:19.356 I don't remember quite that way. I mean, I don't 0:03:19.436 --> 0:03:23.156 remember I remember me asking you. I don't remember you 0:03:23.276 --> 0:03:26.356 bring it up to me, but you might have what 0:03:26.516 --> 0:03:29.836 gave you the optimism to get married a third time? Oh, 0:03:29.876 --> 0:03:34.156 I was just too much in love. And were you 0:03:34.156 --> 0:03:36.356 a little nervous about marrying a guy who'd been married 0:03:36.356 --> 0:03:42.356 twice before? Absolutely? And I figured, well, we won't have children, 0:03:42.716 --> 0:03:45.316 and it'll be fun as long as it lasts, and 0:03:45.316 --> 0:03:47.516 then I'll do something else. Why did you think you 0:03:47.516 --> 0:03:51.236 wouldn't have children? Because he already had four and I 0:03:51.276 --> 0:03:53.556 knew that if we had children then I'd be really 0:03:54.156 --> 0:03:57.116 in in this marriage. And how old were you this time? 0:03:58.476 --> 0:04:01.236 Thirty two? That's a good age to get married. It 0:04:01.356 --> 0:04:05.676 was a wonderful age. And the first child came when 0:04:05.676 --> 0:04:07.716 I was thirty three, and then the second when I 0:04:07.796 --> 0:04:12.036 was thirty five, and it was just good timing. I 0:04:12.116 --> 0:04:16.396 wasn't anxious to get married. I wasn't looking to get married. 0:04:16.916 --> 0:04:19.756 But you know, every time I saw him, I went 0:04:19.836 --> 0:04:22.316 week in the knees and I thought, that's a good sign. 0:04:24.116 --> 0:04:27.996 And it's still true. Yeah, that's a great sign. Well, 0:04:28.676 --> 0:04:33.636 I have a mental picture of your evenings together. First 0:04:33.636 --> 0:04:37.996 of all, you both have your computer, and I would 0:04:38.076 --> 0:04:42.316 think that in the evening hours you have a hard 0:04:42.356 --> 0:04:46.596 time not being on them. Here's a typical night. We 0:04:46.756 --> 0:04:49.116 go out to dinner a lot, and we go out 0:04:49.156 --> 0:04:51.516 just the two of us a lot when we can 0:04:51.916 --> 0:04:55.196 and have We call them dates. They are dates, and 0:04:55.396 --> 0:04:59.876 a typical dinner starts with sweetheart, did you see what 0:04:59.916 --> 0:05:03.076 the Supreme Court did this morning? Can you believe that? 0:05:03.716 --> 0:05:07.116 Or what do you think of this opinion? Our very 0:05:07.156 --> 0:05:11.596 first real date, we talked about the IBM anti trust 0:05:11.636 --> 0:05:16.036 case for two and a half hours. Well, I was fascinated. 0:05:16.156 --> 0:05:19.676 Well this was this was after after though, after she 0:05:19.836 --> 0:05:25.676 had appeared like ninety minutes late because there had been 0:05:25.716 --> 0:05:28.916 some crisis in the White House and she had had 0:05:28.956 --> 0:05:32.836 to stay and work on it, which she thought was 0:05:32.956 --> 0:05:35.076 entirely understandable because she was working for the President of 0:05:35.116 --> 0:05:38.316 United States. I thought, if it was an efficient president 0:05:38.316 --> 0:05:40.436 of the United States, he would have had his work done. 0:05:41.076 --> 0:05:45.036 But so it was. We did get to the ibmount 0:05:45.036 --> 0:05:48.596 of trust case, but only after she arrived and we'd 0:05:48.716 --> 0:05:51.556 went through what she'd been doing. That's true. Would you 0:05:51.596 --> 0:05:53.636 wait at ninety minutes I did. I didn't know she 0:05:53.716 --> 0:05:56.596 was She was definitely worth waiting for no cell phones 0:05:56.636 --> 0:05:59.076 in those days. Yeah, yeah, that's right, there was no. 0:05:59.196 --> 0:06:05.796 I mean because I was on the phone constantly, constantly, constantly. 0:06:06.196 --> 0:06:08.676 I was asked to get something done, and it was 0:06:08.796 --> 0:06:11.516 not something that could be done out of the White House, right. 0:06:12.036 --> 0:06:14.316 And it was a Friday night, and it was getting 0:06:14.396 --> 0:06:18.716 later and later and later, and I was just on 0:06:19.396 --> 0:06:22.596 two lines, three lines. It was. It was fun and 0:06:22.716 --> 0:06:26.596 wonderful and crazy, and I'd look at the watch and say, oh, 0:06:26.676 --> 0:06:31.196 I wonder if he's still there. That's amazing. It's like 0:06:31.596 --> 0:06:35.836 Phil gave a party in Chicago for me, for all 0:06:35.876 --> 0:06:37.956 the people in Chicago that he worked with him that 0:06:37.996 --> 0:06:40.796 he knew, and the movie critic and the TV critic 0:06:40.836 --> 0:06:44.076 and the newspaper people. I was very excited about it. 0:06:44.276 --> 0:06:47.556 And I was producing a movie add that I was 0:06:47.596 --> 0:06:50.676 also starring him, and I was supposed to begin the 0:06:50.836 --> 0:06:55.156 music score on Tuesday. The composer had a heart attack, 0:06:56.476 --> 0:07:00.036 and so my co producer said, you can't go away 0:07:00.076 --> 0:07:02.716 this weekend. We're going to have to write an entire 0:07:02.876 --> 0:07:10.516 score by Tuesday. So I called Phil and I say, um, oh, 0:07:10.556 --> 0:07:14.996 I'm you know, so thrilled that you're giving this party 0:07:15.116 --> 0:07:20.356 for me. But I have sort of bad news. I 0:07:20.396 --> 0:07:25.676 can't come. Hey, you're kidding right anyway, So he gave 0:07:25.676 --> 0:07:27.636 these two hundred people came to his house. He had 0:07:27.636 --> 0:07:29.676 a tent, he had a bandy at all these people, 0:07:29.996 --> 0:07:34.996 and there is no molo And I know that, and 0:07:35.036 --> 0:07:38.116 I really thought, you know, this is it. This guy's 0:07:38.156 --> 0:07:42.636 gonna like dump meet tomorrow. So these things happen to me. 0:07:42.676 --> 0:07:46.756 When you're dealing with people who are in responsible jobs, 0:07:47.116 --> 0:07:50.196 you can't you you can't walk out on the president, 0:07:50.556 --> 0:07:52.956 and I can't walk out on a movie that I 0:07:52.996 --> 0:07:57.036 have to deliver it. And these men who marry us 0:07:57.116 --> 0:08:00.516 or who stay in love with us through that, you know, 0:08:00.636 --> 0:08:02.236 they have to be the kind of menical handle of 0:08:02.276 --> 0:08:04.836 that who can take that. I think it's important to 0:08:04.836 --> 0:08:07.116 I mean, because I think you know, part of what 0:08:07.356 --> 0:08:10.556 you know makes relationships work is each of you being 0:08:11.036 --> 0:08:14.196 interested in the other and interested in what the other 0:08:14.276 --> 0:08:18.076 is doing and how to help the other. Right, you 0:08:18.196 --> 0:08:22.716 do talk about shop. We do. We talked about a 0:08:22.756 --> 0:08:24.636 lot of other things, but but we do talk about 0:08:24.636 --> 0:08:27.996 it because, um, you know, if if you've got a 0:08:28.036 --> 0:08:33.796 difficult case, difficult legal problem or factual problem, you know 0:08:33.836 --> 0:08:35.716 it's good to just be able to talk it through 0:08:35.716 --> 0:08:39.236 with somebody who's a knows what you're doing and be 0:08:39.316 --> 0:08:45.596 as smart, and the three is sort of thoughtful and 0:08:44.356 --> 0:08:50.396 and finally and finally is patient. You know, because the 0:08:50.516 --> 0:08:55.076 more you get into something that's really complicated, the deeper 0:08:55.116 --> 0:08:58.916 you get into it, the fewer and fewer people are 0:08:59.076 --> 0:09:04.756 interested in that level of detail. If I tell somebody like, um, 0:09:06.076 --> 0:09:10.436 I've got a maybe a very interesting case where I'm 0:09:10.436 --> 0:09:15.596 trying to sue health insurance for price fixing and I 0:09:15.636 --> 0:09:19.676 trust violations, that's sort of interesting to people because they 0:09:19.716 --> 0:09:22.836 want to improve the healthcare system and big companies getting 0:09:22.876 --> 0:09:26.156 together and conspiring is kind of interesting. But then you 0:09:26.236 --> 0:09:28.916 begin to get into the second and third, and fourth, 0:09:28.956 --> 0:09:31.196 and fifth and sixth level of detail, and you began 0:09:31.316 --> 0:09:34.996 talking about how many you know insurance there are in 0:09:35.036 --> 0:09:41.236 this county and Alabama and nobody, you know, unless it's 0:09:41.276 --> 0:09:45.436 your spouse, interested in that, And what do you have 0:09:45.556 --> 0:09:49.596 to prove under section two of the Clayton in order 0:09:49.636 --> 0:09:54.596 to win this? You understand, and I'm fascinated by it. 0:09:55.236 --> 0:09:58.796 And so we talk about law, we talk about politics, 0:09:59.196 --> 0:10:02.636 We talk a lot about history. We debate, you know, 0:10:02.676 --> 0:10:06.116 did eisenhowerd do the right thing here. It's fun. But 0:10:06.236 --> 0:10:09.676 when our children were growing up, they s times thought 0:10:09.676 --> 0:10:12.676 we were arguing because they didn't understand what we were 0:10:12.676 --> 0:10:16.636 talking about. We're talking intensely and you know, yeah, and 0:10:16.676 --> 0:10:21.276 well you were debating, yeah exactly, you know, because we don't. 0:10:21.516 --> 0:10:25.116 We don't entirely agree on everything. And that's good too. Yeah, 0:10:25.196 --> 0:10:27.636 were you married to a lawyer before? No, I was 0:10:27.676 --> 0:10:31.116 married to a college professor. And what were you ever 0:10:31.156 --> 0:10:34.316 married to a lawyer? Yes? Both my former wives of ours? 0:10:34.556 --> 0:10:40.996 Really huh, there's a there's a theme. I mean, I 0:10:41.116 --> 0:10:43.796 think I think it's important that you have different interests, 0:10:43.796 --> 0:10:46.036 but it's also important that you share some interests, right, 0:10:47.476 --> 0:10:52.876 and it's important that they understand what you're doing. So yeah, yeah, 0:10:53.316 --> 0:10:58.036 In many ways, you're chewing up time that might otherwise 0:10:58.276 --> 0:11:04.116 be devoted to differences that cause anger and yeah, right, yeah, 0:11:04.196 --> 0:11:07.996 and the words, it saves you from what other couples 0:11:08.116 --> 0:11:14.356 might devote to conflict. And that's true, although often we 0:11:14.516 --> 0:11:18.716 have friendly disagreements. You know, I think the court went 0:11:18.756 --> 0:11:22.716 too far on this or when Clarence Thomas said X, 0:11:23.556 --> 0:11:26.236 I didn't see any basis for that, and then he 0:11:26.276 --> 0:11:31.236 would say, well, you've got to look at it this way. So, yes, 0:11:31.476 --> 0:11:36.996 we avoid topics of conflict, but we have lively disagree. 0:11:37.916 --> 0:11:40.476 I have a lawyers fight. That's interesting. Well, I mean, 0:11:40.916 --> 0:11:43.796 I think I think actually one thing I hadn't really 0:11:43.836 --> 0:11:46.596 thought about this before, but but I think maybe one 0:11:46.636 --> 0:11:52.876 thing that helps in times of conflict is being lawyers 0:11:52.916 --> 0:11:56.996 because as lawyers you understand that there are different points 0:11:56.996 --> 0:11:59.956 of view. You're always dealing with somebody who has a 0:11:59.956 --> 0:12:04.436 different point of view, and and you understand that somebody 0:12:04.476 --> 0:12:07.076 who is your adversary is not your enemy. But I think, 0:12:07.236 --> 0:12:10.836 I think more important is it if you keep in 0:12:11.196 --> 0:12:18.796 context disputes, disagreements. If you get angry, and you keep 0:12:18.836 --> 0:12:22.996 that in the context of the overall relationship, you don't, 0:12:23.996 --> 0:12:27.396 you're not likely to powder go off or or stay 0:12:27.436 --> 0:12:33.596 angry very long because you understand that it's such a 0:12:33.636 --> 0:12:38.836 tiny part of your relationship, in such a small part 0:12:39.436 --> 0:12:43.116 of your time together. As a couple, They've had a 0:12:43.116 --> 0:12:46.916 lot of joy, but no shortage of tragedy either. David 0:12:46.956 --> 0:12:50.596 in particular, has had his share of heartbreak. I've lost 0:12:50.636 --> 0:12:54.676 two children. Oh yeah, my daughter had lung cancer. My 0:12:54.756 --> 0:13:00.276 son and this aneurism. She was forty eight, and he 0:13:00.476 --> 0:13:05.236 was fifty terrible. My job was to be there. There's 0:13:05.276 --> 0:13:07.916 nothing you can say. You're never the same when you 0:13:07.956 --> 0:13:13.916 lose a child. So I m. When we first heard 0:13:13.916 --> 0:13:19.476 that Jonathan was in a bad way, you said, I, 0:13:20.516 --> 0:13:24.476 I can't do this again, and I said you can 0:13:24.596 --> 0:13:31.516 and we will, we must and and we are. Ye. 0:13:32.356 --> 0:13:35.116 That's what marriage is kind of for, to be the 0:13:35.156 --> 0:13:39.916 cushion of life. Right. When my father died, I loved 0:13:39.996 --> 0:13:42.676 him so much and he was my best friend ever. 0:13:43.556 --> 0:13:47.556 You know, I was a real daddy's girl. And when 0:13:47.596 --> 0:13:52.636 he died, I just, I mean I just grieved something terrible. 0:13:52.836 --> 0:13:55.276 You know. I went to a shrink that I had 0:13:55.316 --> 0:13:58.836 gone to years before, and I said, I, this is like, 0:13:59.036 --> 0:14:01.076 is this sick that I'm crying so much? You know? 0:14:01.596 --> 0:14:04.276 What is? You know? He said, no, this is what 0:14:04.516 --> 0:14:07.396 life is. He said, And this is why some people 0:14:07.916 --> 0:14:10.876 don't commit to love, Yeah, because they know at the 0:14:11.156 --> 0:14:14.436 end somewhere something's going to happen. The loss is gonna happen. 0:14:14.596 --> 0:14:19.516 Right And Phil, God, Phil just brought me through it 0:14:19.556 --> 0:14:21.916 and had my mom come and live with us for 0:14:21.996 --> 0:14:24.596 three months. I mean, and she was a mess and 0:14:24.956 --> 0:14:29.596 I was a mess. He just entertained us everybody invited people. 0:14:30.076 --> 0:14:32.596 He took us out. I mean it was just we 0:14:32.756 --> 0:14:35.156 both my mother and I were both basket cases. But 0:14:35.316 --> 0:14:40.076 he really came through it, really, And that's the cushion. Oh, 0:14:40.156 --> 0:14:45.276 a good Irish man, a good Irish lad. Yeah, we'll 0:14:45.316 --> 0:14:57.036 have more. After a quick break, we're back to our 0:14:57.076 --> 0:15:01.436 conversation with David and Mary. Boys. They're both so smart. 0:15:01.516 --> 0:15:04.476 It's hard to believe that David was dropping out after 0:15:04.596 --> 0:15:06.836 high school. I mean, I don't know what would happened 0:15:06.996 --> 0:15:09.796 if my first wife had not gotten me go to college. 0:15:09.796 --> 0:15:14.316 But why didn't you want to go? I didn't like school. 0:15:14.716 --> 0:15:18.796 I'm dyslexic. As I got further along in school, reading 0:15:18.956 --> 0:15:22.276 was I didn't really like reading the law? How did 0:15:22.276 --> 0:15:24.556 you do it? I listened well. I can learn almost 0:15:24.556 --> 0:15:27.196 everything I wanted just listening in class to my professors. 0:15:27.596 --> 0:15:30.156 I'm still not a great reader, but I mean I 0:15:30.156 --> 0:15:32.756 didn't read at all until I was in third grade. Nothing. 0:15:33.836 --> 0:15:37.596 The most important thing is to understand that it is 0:15:37.636 --> 0:15:41.836 an input problem. It's not a processing problems. It is 0:15:41.956 --> 0:15:48.396 an ability to absorb information. It's not how well you think. 0:15:48.516 --> 0:15:55.476 I mean, there's no negative correlation between dyslexia and intelligence. Right, 0:15:55.556 --> 0:15:58.316 But all those facts that you have to gather in 0:15:58.436 --> 0:16:01.036 order to make a case, all the research I have 0:16:01.156 --> 0:16:03.996 to do, and I do have to do some reading. 0:16:03.996 --> 0:16:07.316 But as I said, I listened really well. I think 0:16:07.436 --> 0:16:12.876 it has taught me to organize my thoughts, to simplify things, 0:16:13.476 --> 0:16:15.916 see how the things are important, because you can't read everything. 0:16:17.436 --> 0:16:22.276 That's breathtaking. It really is. I bet you can't imagine it, right. 0:16:23.516 --> 0:16:27.836 I'm not hard wired that way, but I don't have 0:16:27.956 --> 0:16:34.596 his processing power. But it's fun to live with. So 0:16:34.996 --> 0:16:37.396 where are you on the jealousy meter? I'm sicilian, I'm 0:16:37.476 --> 0:16:43.996 very jealous. David has friends who are women, and they 0:16:44.076 --> 0:16:48.396 are friends, and I was jealous for a while, but 0:16:48.436 --> 0:16:50.956 then I put that away. I said, how did you 0:16:50.996 --> 0:16:53.116 deal with it? I said, you know what, if he 0:16:53.196 --> 0:16:55.356 wanted to be with him, he'd be with him. He's 0:16:56.476 --> 0:16:59.836 left two wives, he knows how to do it. He 0:16:59.876 --> 0:17:02.316 doesn't want to be here, He'll just go off. So 0:17:02.556 --> 0:17:08.996 why am I thinking about this? I figured we off 0:17:09.156 --> 0:17:12.276 and had his former wives or one of them come 0:17:12.276 --> 0:17:19.876 on vacations because they're grandchildren and children were there, and 0:17:19.916 --> 0:17:22.636 he asked me, once, do you mind if Carol comes 0:17:22.636 --> 0:17:26.396 on the Christmas trip, I thought his first wife, and 0:17:26.436 --> 0:17:30.516 I thought, why would I mind? Because her four children 0:17:31.236 --> 0:17:34.836 who were still growing up and then grandchildren were on 0:17:34.876 --> 0:17:37.956 those trips, and you're spending a week in the Caribbean. 0:17:38.196 --> 0:17:40.956 How can I say grandmother can't be there. So I 0:17:41.116 --> 0:17:44.436 said him myself, if he wanted to be with her, 0:17:45.076 --> 0:17:47.516 he would be with her. So yeah, bring her on. 0:17:48.596 --> 0:17:51.836 And I really meant that. And it's been good, and 0:17:51.876 --> 0:17:54.916 it's good for the children. Yeah, I'm sure it is, 0:17:55.356 --> 0:17:59.356 but I'm not jealous of them at all. His second 0:17:59.356 --> 0:18:02.356 wife is a friend of mine. Yeah. When I met her, 0:18:02.396 --> 0:18:05.996 I sort of gasped and thought, that's me ten years older. 0:18:06.996 --> 0:18:11.716 That's how this works. Okay, you know, it'll be fun 0:18:11.796 --> 0:18:15.116 while it last. Turns out it did last. One of 0:18:15.156 --> 0:18:16.956 the things I think that we've learned from a lot 0:18:16.996 --> 0:18:22.636 of these couples is that people a change things about 0:18:22.676 --> 0:18:27.196 themselves in order to accommodate another person. Well. Well, I mean, 0:18:28.036 --> 0:18:34.836 for example, she wanted to tear down my house, and 0:18:36.116 --> 0:18:38.236 that seemed to me at the time to be a 0:18:38.316 --> 0:18:42.836 really bad idea, because I thought it was a perfectly 0:18:42.876 --> 0:18:48.836 good house, a ranch style, hideous of rubbish. It was. 0:18:49.036 --> 0:18:50.796 It was a nicer house than I'd ever lived in 0:18:50.836 --> 0:18:53.596 my life until then, and I thought it was I 0:18:53.636 --> 0:18:57.796 thought it was perfectly good. Now I eventually understood that 0:18:58.276 --> 0:19:03.276 building another house was more important to her than keeping 0:19:03.396 --> 0:19:06.796 the house that we had was to me. And once 0:19:06.836 --> 0:19:09.996 I understood that, I was perfectly happy to tear down 0:19:10.036 --> 0:19:13.956 the house and build a new one. And as in 0:19:14.076 --> 0:19:17.436 so many things, she was right, because this is a 0:19:17.516 --> 0:19:20.996 much nicer house, and I'm much happier here than I 0:19:21.036 --> 0:19:23.596 would have been if we hadn't torn down the durned 0:19:23.596 --> 0:19:26.116 the house and built this one. But you were able 0:19:26.316 --> 0:19:29.396 to not make that a power struggle and just and 0:19:29.516 --> 0:19:32.436 just say, Okay, this means more to her than to me. 0:19:32.836 --> 0:19:35.556 It does. And also and also you know, there are 0:19:35.556 --> 0:19:37.916 lots of things that I don't do so well, and 0:19:37.996 --> 0:19:39.676 a lot of things that I don't know so well 0:19:39.956 --> 0:19:42.356 that she knows better than I do and does better 0:19:42.356 --> 0:19:47.396 than I do. Each of us is very conscious of 0:19:48.356 --> 0:19:51.596 if there's something that's more important to the other than 0:19:51.676 --> 0:19:55.036 it is to us, that we just decide to do 0:19:55.076 --> 0:19:58.276 it the way the other one wants to. For example, 0:19:58.676 --> 0:20:02.276 one of the things that I did before we were 0:20:02.316 --> 0:20:07.516 married was I would go to Las Vegas often and 0:20:07.676 --> 0:20:14.516 when we got married. Um, Mary despised Las Vegas. She 0:20:14.716 --> 0:20:18.596 you know, I mean the first time we went, she 0:20:19.476 --> 0:20:22.196 pointed out that most of the men there were wearing 0:20:22.196 --> 0:20:27.156 more jewelry than she was. And um, I mean she 0:20:27.996 --> 0:20:33.076 there was almost nothing there that she really liked. But um, 0:20:33.116 --> 0:20:37.116 and then then she realized that I enjoyed going there, 0:20:37.276 --> 0:20:40.836 and um, and I'd like to gamble, and I liked 0:20:40.836 --> 0:20:43.716 the shows, and I liked and I liked the ambiance 0:20:43.756 --> 0:20:49.716 and um and so she um uh and not grudgingly. 0:20:50.196 --> 0:20:52.716 When you do something for somebody, don't do it grudgingly. 0:20:52.796 --> 0:20:56.756 Don't don't make them feel that you're doing them a favor. 0:20:57.236 --> 0:20:59.196 And she has sort of embraced going to Las Vegas. 0:20:59.236 --> 0:21:02.596 And I think, although she may tell you differently when 0:21:02.676 --> 0:21:06.076 the microphones are off and you're a private, but I 0:21:06.436 --> 0:21:10.036 think she actually enjoys going there. How often do you go? 0:21:10.556 --> 0:21:14.476 Probably three or four times a year, wow, to Vegas? 0:21:16.916 --> 0:21:18.596 See what I did? I used to I used to 0:21:18.596 --> 0:21:20.596 go six times a year. Wow. I used to go 0:21:20.636 --> 0:21:23.556 every other month, but but now about three or four times. 0:21:23.916 --> 0:21:29.916 I lost twenty dollars and I was depressed. I didn't 0:21:29.956 --> 0:21:33.516 have twenty dollars worth of fun. Yeah, right back when 0:21:34.236 --> 0:21:38.676 I didn't have a chance. Well what about you though, Well, 0:21:38.716 --> 0:21:42.836 here's what I did. I figured out, okay, this gee, 0:21:42.916 --> 0:21:47.036 I thought he was so intelligent. Here we are going 0:21:47.076 --> 0:21:50.996 to lost Vegas. Now. He never went crazy, you know, 0:21:51.036 --> 0:21:53.276 he never lost a lot of money. You know, he 0:21:53.356 --> 0:21:59.436 never gambled the house. Yeah. And I decided, all right, 0:21:59.596 --> 0:22:02.196 he likes to do this, I don't. We do stuff 0:22:02.196 --> 0:22:03.956 I like to do that he doesn't like to do. 0:22:04.076 --> 0:22:07.676 So we'll leave in it out. And I said, what 0:22:07.756 --> 0:22:10.916 can I do there that I like? I like to 0:22:10.996 --> 0:22:14.316 hit tennis balls. So we would go there and I 0:22:14.316 --> 0:22:17.476 would hire the pro and I'd spend the afternoon on 0:22:17.516 --> 0:22:20.916 the tennis court. And I was perfectly happy. Yeah, and 0:22:20.996 --> 0:22:24.316 I so I just decided, he likes to do this, 0:22:25.316 --> 0:22:27.556 We do stuff I like to do that he doesn't, 0:22:27.916 --> 0:22:33.116 and so I'll find a niche Yeah, and I did. 0:22:33.556 --> 0:22:36.196 I find. Now it's fun to go that's and the 0:22:36.236 --> 0:22:41.156 shows are good. That's I think I can never stamp good. Yeah. 0:22:41.556 --> 0:22:44.516 And so what are some of the things that he 0:22:44.636 --> 0:22:47.956 does for you that that he doesn't like to do 0:22:47.996 --> 0:22:52.396 what you like to do. I might be wrong about this, 0:22:52.476 --> 0:22:58.636 but when we first started taking bike trips as a vacation, right, 0:22:58.796 --> 0:23:06.196 a vacation. You're you know, you're grinding your way about. Yeah, 0:23:06.396 --> 0:23:09.916 that's Our first bike trip was twenty nine, nine years ago, 0:23:10.836 --> 0:23:13.596 and we've been doing them ever since. Really we do 0:23:13.716 --> 0:23:17.276 two or three a year. Wow. And it's perfectly clear 0:23:18.236 --> 0:23:20.556 that he does that. I think, you know, it's like 0:23:20.636 --> 0:23:23.076 me in Las Vegas. I think now kind of like it. 0:23:23.196 --> 0:23:25.996 I have come to sort of like it. Um, but 0:23:26.196 --> 0:23:32.036 um in the beginning the idea of um, I mean, 0:23:32.116 --> 0:23:33.956 you get it. These bike trips. You go for a 0:23:33.996 --> 0:23:42.276 week and you and you travel like forty fifty sometimes 0:23:42.316 --> 0:23:47.196 sixty miles a day, Oh my god, and get up 0:23:47.236 --> 0:23:50.636 early and um you so hey, I don't like to 0:23:50.676 --> 0:23:54.836 get up early, be I don't really dislike exercise, but 0:23:54.956 --> 0:23:57.436 not a high priority for me. I'm just fascinated that 0:23:57.476 --> 0:24:00.396 you do these bike trips. I'm gonna really. One of 0:24:00.436 --> 0:24:05.196 the nice things is that we're together the entire day, 0:24:05.916 --> 0:24:08.996 nothing else happening. You know, we can just ride together, 0:24:09.236 --> 0:24:14.636 talk and it's very peaceful. Yeah. There came a time 0:24:14.676 --> 0:24:17.476 when I said to you, whatever you want to do, 0:24:17.596 --> 0:24:21.436 I want to do wow, And I thought to myself, 0:24:22.476 --> 0:24:25.676 here you are. You're a lawyer. You're a feminist and 0:24:25.756 --> 0:24:30.036 you're saying to this man, whatever you want. And I thought, 0:24:30.116 --> 0:24:36.796 good grief, it's come to this. But a lot of 0:24:36.876 --> 0:24:41.996 things changed. It wasn't a negotiation anymore. The next day 0:24:42.076 --> 0:24:45.956 he became a nicer person who was and it became 0:24:45.996 --> 0:24:51.556 an upward spiral. I think that's kindness, and it changed everything. 0:24:51.596 --> 0:24:54.916 And I remember if, well, actually, whatever you want to Taiwan, 0:24:55.916 --> 0:24:59.036 because I really felt the same way. We decided. I 0:24:59.036 --> 0:25:02.236 don't know, ten years into our marriage, we've been bickering 0:25:02.276 --> 0:25:07.276 about unimportant things, and we just decided are we in 0:25:07.436 --> 0:25:11.396 or are we out married? Or aren't we? If we're married, 0:25:11.996 --> 0:25:15.996 let's make that a really good thing. And so when 0:25:16.036 --> 0:25:20.676 we disagree on stuff, and I think he has an 0:25:20.716 --> 0:25:26.596 eye with what's really important here, a great, loving marriage. 0:25:26.676 --> 0:25:30.516 So he's dead wrong on this issue, Who cares? I 0:25:30.556 --> 0:25:33.756 don't really, I don't have to win every argument. Is 0:25:33.796 --> 0:25:36.876 one of you more likely to be the peacemaker or 0:25:37.556 --> 0:25:43.836 oh me? Of course? No, I don't think either one 0:25:43.876 --> 0:25:46.116 of us. Yea, I would not say. I think we 0:25:46.236 --> 0:25:48.156 kind of trade around on that. I would say either 0:25:48.276 --> 0:25:51.476 one of us. I think that we're both pretty good. 0:25:51.916 --> 0:25:56.476 As I say at keeping things in context. I'm married 0:25:56.516 --> 0:26:00.516 to someone who is not your typical great lawyer. He 0:26:00.676 --> 0:26:04.476 is off the charts. I use that to my advantage. 0:26:05.036 --> 0:26:08.196 I don't resent that, you know, I learned stuff from him. 0:26:08.316 --> 0:26:13.676 I still are you, I respond, but you pretty much 0:26:15.036 --> 0:26:19.196 dazzle me with what you come up with, and I 0:26:19.236 --> 0:26:24.796 love it. That's Mary and David boys. I don't know 0:26:24.836 --> 0:26:26.876 how they could be more in tune with each other. 0:26:27.076 --> 0:26:30.236 It was so moving to see how they share each 0:26:30.236 --> 0:26:34.436 other's joys and sorrows and passions. That's what marriage is 0:26:34.436 --> 0:26:38.356 all about. Until next time, I'm filled down at you 0:26:38.716 --> 0:26:41.796 and I'm Marlo Thomas. I I don't need to be 0:26:41.876 --> 0:26:45.996 right right. I can tell myself I'm right. Double Day 0:26:46.156 --> 0:26:49.716 is a production of Pushkin Industries. The show was created 0:26:49.796 --> 0:26:53.956 by US and produced by Sarah Lily. Michael Bahari is 0:26:53.996 --> 0:26:57.796 associate producer. Musical adaptations of It Had to Be You 0:26:58.396 --> 0:27:03.836 by Stellwagon Sympinet. Marlo and I are executive producers, along 0:27:03.836 --> 0:27:09.036 with Mia Lobell and Letal Molad from Pushkin Special Thing 0:27:09.116 --> 0:27:14.556 Thanks to Jacob Weisberg, Malcolm Gladwell, Heather Faine, John Snars, 0:27:14.996 --> 0:27:21.596 Carly Migliori, Eric Sandler, Emily Rostek, Jason Gambrel, Paul Williams, 0:27:21.836 --> 0:27:26.516 and Bruce Klucker. If you like our show, please remember 0:27:26.556 --> 0:27:30.516 to share, rate, and review. Thanks for listening.