1 00:00:14,836 --> 00:00:29,516 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hi, I'm Phil Donahue and I'm Marlo Thomas, and 2 00:00:29,636 --> 00:00:32,556 Speaker 1: we're going on a series of double dates to find 3 00:00:32,596 --> 00:00:40,916 Speaker 1: out what makes a marriage last. I don't often find 4 00:00:40,956 --> 00:00:43,876 Speaker 1: myself hanging out with a pair of heavy hitting lawyers 5 00:00:44,156 --> 00:00:46,876 Speaker 1: just for fun. But when Marlo and I had the 6 00:00:46,956 --> 00:00:50,236 Speaker 1: chance to sit down with David and Mary boys, that's 7 00:00:50,276 --> 00:00:54,396 Speaker 1: exactly what it was. They're an incredible couple. I mean, 8 00:00:54,436 --> 00:00:57,716 Speaker 1: when David met Mary, she was the assistant director for 9 00:00:57,796 --> 00:01:02,036 Speaker 1: the Domestic Policy Staff under President Jimmy Carter and David 10 00:01:02,196 --> 00:01:05,196 Speaker 1: was chief counsel for Ted Kennedy. Well, you don't get 11 00:01:05,236 --> 00:01:09,036 Speaker 1: more power couple than that, certainly not. When we say 12 00:01:09,196 --> 00:01:11,476 Speaker 1: d down to chat with them, we were eager to 13 00:01:11,516 --> 00:01:15,316 Speaker 1: know about their first meeting. Were they cautious lawyers or 14 00:01:15,396 --> 00:01:20,116 Speaker 1: was the attraction immediate? It took me about twelve seconds. 15 00:01:21,956 --> 00:01:27,916 Speaker 1: He wasn't married, always good he was really smart, he 16 00:01:27,996 --> 00:01:31,316 Speaker 1: was very good looking, and he had a little money 17 00:01:31,316 --> 00:01:34,796 Speaker 1: in his pocket. So and he was a nice guy 18 00:01:35,276 --> 00:01:38,076 Speaker 1: would have liked so it took me twelve seconds. Took 19 00:01:38,156 --> 00:01:40,516 Speaker 1: him a while, No, it didn't take me very long. 20 00:01:41,316 --> 00:01:44,036 Speaker 1: But what did you think, did you? I thought she 21 00:01:44,196 --> 00:01:51,276 Speaker 1: was really sexy, which at that stage was very high 22 00:01:51,476 --> 00:01:56,196 Speaker 1: priority for me and very smart. Yeah, And I asked 23 00:01:56,196 --> 00:01:59,556 Speaker 1: her out the next time I was in Washington. But 24 00:01:59,676 --> 00:02:04,156 Speaker 1: we were negotiating at that time because Kennedy. We were 25 00:02:04,196 --> 00:02:08,676 Speaker 1: working on airline deregulation, and Kennedy had a bill that 26 00:02:08,756 --> 00:02:13,756 Speaker 1: was very radical. President Carter supported a bill that was 27 00:02:13,876 --> 00:02:18,836 Speaker 1: more moderate, and so we had negotiating sessions with me 28 00:02:18,956 --> 00:02:23,436 Speaker 1: and six or eight other people from the administration, different agencies, 29 00:02:24,076 --> 00:02:28,076 Speaker 1: and then him and I said to my colleagues, we 30 00:02:28,196 --> 00:02:31,756 Speaker 1: are not negotiating with this man. And they said, well why, 31 00:02:32,276 --> 00:02:34,596 Speaker 1: I said, no offense, But he's a hundred times smarter 32 00:02:34,676 --> 00:02:40,356 Speaker 1: than all of us put together. That was nineteen seventy 33 00:02:40,396 --> 00:02:45,036 Speaker 1: and you get married, and that was a long time. 34 00:02:45,036 --> 00:02:50,636 Speaker 1: You waited. Well, he'd been married twice, yes, And people 35 00:02:50,676 --> 00:02:55,116 Speaker 1: were warning me, you know, this guy marries, but he 36 00:02:55,156 --> 00:02:58,436 Speaker 1: doesn't really stay with people. And that was fine with 37 00:02:58,516 --> 00:03:01,076 Speaker 1: me because I'd already been married. I sort of got 38 00:03:01,116 --> 00:03:03,916 Speaker 1: that out of my system. But once I moved to 39 00:03:03,956 --> 00:03:06,316 Speaker 1: New York, I thought, I'm not going to live in 40 00:03:06,356 --> 00:03:09,876 Speaker 1: New York and not be married. So are we getting 41 00:03:09,876 --> 00:03:13,636 Speaker 1: married or am I moving back to Washington. That's good. 42 00:03:13,956 --> 00:03:19,356 Speaker 1: I don't remember quite that way. I mean, I don't 43 00:03:19,436 --> 00:03:23,156 Speaker 1: remember I remember me asking you. I don't remember you 44 00:03:23,276 --> 00:03:26,356 Speaker 1: bring it up to me, but you might have what 45 00:03:26,516 --> 00:03:29,836 Speaker 1: gave you the optimism to get married a third time? Oh, 46 00:03:29,876 --> 00:03:34,156 Speaker 1: I was just too much in love. And were you 47 00:03:34,156 --> 00:03:36,356 Speaker 1: a little nervous about marrying a guy who'd been married 48 00:03:36,356 --> 00:03:42,356 Speaker 1: twice before? Absolutely? And I figured, well, we won't have children, 49 00:03:42,716 --> 00:03:45,316 Speaker 1: and it'll be fun as long as it lasts, and 50 00:03:45,316 --> 00:03:47,516 Speaker 1: then I'll do something else. Why did you think you 51 00:03:47,516 --> 00:03:51,236 Speaker 1: wouldn't have children? Because he already had four and I 52 00:03:51,276 --> 00:03:53,556 Speaker 1: knew that if we had children then I'd be really 53 00:03:54,156 --> 00:03:57,116 Speaker 1: in in this marriage. And how old were you this time? 54 00:03:58,476 --> 00:04:01,236 Speaker 1: Thirty two? That's a good age to get married. It 55 00:04:01,356 --> 00:04:05,676 Speaker 1: was a wonderful age. And the first child came when 56 00:04:05,676 --> 00:04:07,716 Speaker 1: I was thirty three, and then the second when I 57 00:04:07,796 --> 00:04:12,036 Speaker 1: was thirty five, and it was just good timing. I 58 00:04:12,116 --> 00:04:16,396 Speaker 1: wasn't anxious to get married. I wasn't looking to get married. 59 00:04:16,916 --> 00:04:19,756 Speaker 1: But you know, every time I saw him, I went 60 00:04:19,836 --> 00:04:22,316 Speaker 1: week in the knees and I thought, that's a good sign. 61 00:04:24,116 --> 00:04:27,996 Speaker 1: And it's still true. Yeah, that's a great sign. Well, 62 00:04:28,676 --> 00:04:33,636 Speaker 1: I have a mental picture of your evenings together. First 63 00:04:33,636 --> 00:04:37,996 Speaker 1: of all, you both have your computer, and I would 64 00:04:38,076 --> 00:04:42,316 Speaker 1: think that in the evening hours you have a hard 65 00:04:42,356 --> 00:04:46,596 Speaker 1: time not being on them. Here's a typical night. We 66 00:04:46,756 --> 00:04:49,116 Speaker 1: go out to dinner a lot, and we go out 67 00:04:49,156 --> 00:04:51,516 Speaker 1: just the two of us a lot when we can 68 00:04:51,916 --> 00:04:55,196 Speaker 1: and have We call them dates. They are dates, and 69 00:04:55,396 --> 00:04:59,876 Speaker 1: a typical dinner starts with sweetheart, did you see what 70 00:04:59,916 --> 00:05:03,076 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court did this morning? Can you believe that? 71 00:05:03,716 --> 00:05:07,116 Speaker 1: Or what do you think of this opinion? Our very 72 00:05:07,156 --> 00:05:11,596 Speaker 1: first real date, we talked about the IBM anti trust 73 00:05:11,636 --> 00:05:16,036 Speaker 1: case for two and a half hours. Well, I was fascinated. 74 00:05:16,156 --> 00:05:19,676 Speaker 1: Well this was this was after after though, after she 75 00:05:19,836 --> 00:05:25,676 Speaker 1: had appeared like ninety minutes late because there had been 76 00:05:25,716 --> 00:05:28,916 Speaker 1: some crisis in the White House and she had had 77 00:05:28,956 --> 00:05:32,836 Speaker 1: to stay and work on it, which she thought was 78 00:05:32,956 --> 00:05:35,076 Speaker 1: entirely understandable because she was working for the President of 79 00:05:35,116 --> 00:05:38,316 Speaker 1: United States. I thought, if it was an efficient president 80 00:05:38,316 --> 00:05:40,436 Speaker 1: of the United States, he would have had his work done. 81 00:05:41,076 --> 00:05:45,036 Speaker 1: But so it was. We did get to the ibmount 82 00:05:45,036 --> 00:05:48,596 Speaker 1: of trust case, but only after she arrived and we'd 83 00:05:48,716 --> 00:05:51,556 Speaker 1: went through what she'd been doing. That's true. Would you 84 00:05:51,596 --> 00:05:53,636 Speaker 1: wait at ninety minutes I did. I didn't know she 85 00:05:53,716 --> 00:05:56,596 Speaker 1: was She was definitely worth waiting for no cell phones 86 00:05:56,636 --> 00:05:59,076 Speaker 1: in those days. Yeah, yeah, that's right, there was no. 87 00:05:59,196 --> 00:06:05,796 Speaker 1: I mean because I was on the phone constantly, constantly, constantly. 88 00:06:06,196 --> 00:06:08,676 Speaker 1: I was asked to get something done, and it was 89 00:06:08,796 --> 00:06:11,516 Speaker 1: not something that could be done out of the White House, right. 90 00:06:12,036 --> 00:06:14,316 Speaker 1: And it was a Friday night, and it was getting 91 00:06:14,396 --> 00:06:18,716 Speaker 1: later and later and later, and I was just on 92 00:06:19,396 --> 00:06:22,596 Speaker 1: two lines, three lines. It was. It was fun and 93 00:06:22,716 --> 00:06:26,596 Speaker 1: wonderful and crazy, and I'd look at the watch and say, oh, 94 00:06:26,676 --> 00:06:31,196 Speaker 1: I wonder if he's still there. That's amazing. It's like 95 00:06:31,596 --> 00:06:35,836 Speaker 1: Phil gave a party in Chicago for me, for all 96 00:06:35,876 --> 00:06:37,956 Speaker 1: the people in Chicago that he worked with him that 97 00:06:37,996 --> 00:06:40,796 Speaker 1: he knew, and the movie critic and the TV critic 98 00:06:40,836 --> 00:06:44,076 Speaker 1: and the newspaper people. I was very excited about it. 99 00:06:44,276 --> 00:06:47,556 Speaker 1: And I was producing a movie add that I was 100 00:06:47,596 --> 00:06:50,676 Speaker 1: also starring him, and I was supposed to begin the 101 00:06:50,836 --> 00:06:55,156 Speaker 1: music score on Tuesday. The composer had a heart attack, 102 00:06:56,476 --> 00:07:00,036 Speaker 1: and so my co producer said, you can't go away 103 00:07:00,076 --> 00:07:02,716 Speaker 1: this weekend. We're going to have to write an entire 104 00:07:02,876 --> 00:07:10,516 Speaker 1: score by Tuesday. So I called Phil and I say, um, oh, 105 00:07:10,556 --> 00:07:14,996 Speaker 1: I'm you know, so thrilled that you're giving this party 106 00:07:15,116 --> 00:07:20,356 Speaker 1: for me. But I have sort of bad news. I 107 00:07:20,396 --> 00:07:25,676 Speaker 1: can't come. Hey, you're kidding right anyway, So he gave 108 00:07:25,676 --> 00:07:27,636 Speaker 1: these two hundred people came to his house. He had 109 00:07:27,636 --> 00:07:29,676 Speaker 1: a tent, he had a bandy at all these people, 110 00:07:29,996 --> 00:07:34,996 Speaker 1: and there is no molo And I know that, and 111 00:07:35,036 --> 00:07:38,116 Speaker 1: I really thought, you know, this is it. This guy's 112 00:07:38,156 --> 00:07:42,636 Speaker 1: gonna like dump meet tomorrow. So these things happen to me. 113 00:07:42,676 --> 00:07:46,756 Speaker 1: When you're dealing with people who are in responsible jobs, 114 00:07:47,116 --> 00:07:50,196 Speaker 1: you can't you you can't walk out on the president, 115 00:07:50,556 --> 00:07:52,956 Speaker 1: and I can't walk out on a movie that I 116 00:07:52,996 --> 00:07:57,036 Speaker 1: have to deliver it. And these men who marry us 117 00:07:57,116 --> 00:08:00,516 Speaker 1: or who stay in love with us through that, you know, 118 00:08:00,636 --> 00:08:02,236 Speaker 1: they have to be the kind of menical handle of 119 00:08:02,276 --> 00:08:04,836 Speaker 1: that who can take that. I think it's important to 120 00:08:04,836 --> 00:08:07,116 Speaker 1: I mean, because I think you know, part of what 121 00:08:07,356 --> 00:08:10,556 Speaker 1: you know makes relationships work is each of you being 122 00:08:11,036 --> 00:08:14,196 Speaker 1: interested in the other and interested in what the other 123 00:08:14,276 --> 00:08:18,076 Speaker 1: is doing and how to help the other. Right, you 124 00:08:18,196 --> 00:08:22,716 Speaker 1: do talk about shop. We do. We talked about a 125 00:08:22,756 --> 00:08:24,636 Speaker 1: lot of other things, but but we do talk about 126 00:08:24,636 --> 00:08:27,996 Speaker 1: it because, um, you know, if if you've got a 127 00:08:28,036 --> 00:08:33,796 Speaker 1: difficult case, difficult legal problem or factual problem, you know 128 00:08:33,836 --> 00:08:35,716 Speaker 1: it's good to just be able to talk it through 129 00:08:35,716 --> 00:08:39,236 Speaker 1: with somebody who's a knows what you're doing and be 130 00:08:39,316 --> 00:08:45,596 Speaker 1: as smart, and the three is sort of thoughtful and 131 00:08:44,356 --> 00:08:50,396 Speaker 1: and finally and finally is patient. You know, because the 132 00:08:50,516 --> 00:08:55,076 Speaker 1: more you get into something that's really complicated, the deeper 133 00:08:55,116 --> 00:08:58,916 Speaker 1: you get into it, the fewer and fewer people are 134 00:08:59,076 --> 00:09:04,756 Speaker 1: interested in that level of detail. If I tell somebody like, um, 135 00:09:06,076 --> 00:09:10,436 Speaker 1: I've got a maybe a very interesting case where I'm 136 00:09:10,436 --> 00:09:15,596 Speaker 1: trying to sue health insurance for price fixing and I 137 00:09:15,636 --> 00:09:19,676 Speaker 1: trust violations, that's sort of interesting to people because they 138 00:09:19,716 --> 00:09:22,836 Speaker 1: want to improve the healthcare system and big companies getting 139 00:09:22,876 --> 00:09:26,156 Speaker 1: together and conspiring is kind of interesting. But then you 140 00:09:26,236 --> 00:09:28,916 Speaker 1: begin to get into the second and third, and fourth, 141 00:09:28,956 --> 00:09:31,196 Speaker 1: and fifth and sixth level of detail, and you began 142 00:09:31,316 --> 00:09:34,996 Speaker 1: talking about how many you know insurance there are in 143 00:09:35,036 --> 00:09:41,236 Speaker 1: this county and Alabama and nobody, you know, unless it's 144 00:09:41,276 --> 00:09:45,436 Speaker 1: your spouse, interested in that, And what do you have 145 00:09:45,556 --> 00:09:49,596 Speaker 1: to prove under section two of the Clayton in order 146 00:09:49,636 --> 00:09:54,596 Speaker 1: to win this? You understand, and I'm fascinated by it. 147 00:09:55,236 --> 00:09:58,796 Speaker 1: And so we talk about law, we talk about politics, 148 00:09:59,196 --> 00:10:02,636 Speaker 1: We talk a lot about history. We debate, you know, 149 00:10:02,676 --> 00:10:06,116 Speaker 1: did eisenhowerd do the right thing here. It's fun. But 150 00:10:06,236 --> 00:10:09,676 Speaker 1: when our children were growing up, they s times thought 151 00:10:09,676 --> 00:10:12,676 Speaker 1: we were arguing because they didn't understand what we were 152 00:10:12,676 --> 00:10:16,636 Speaker 1: talking about. We're talking intensely and you know, yeah, and 153 00:10:16,676 --> 00:10:21,276 Speaker 1: well you were debating, yeah exactly, you know, because we don't. 154 00:10:21,516 --> 00:10:25,116 Speaker 1: We don't entirely agree on everything. And that's good too. Yeah, 155 00:10:25,196 --> 00:10:27,636 Speaker 1: were you married to a lawyer before? No, I was 156 00:10:27,676 --> 00:10:31,116 Speaker 1: married to a college professor. And what were you ever 157 00:10:31,156 --> 00:10:34,316 Speaker 1: married to a lawyer? Yes? Both my former wives of ours? 158 00:10:34,556 --> 00:10:40,996 Speaker 1: Really huh, there's a there's a theme. I mean, I 159 00:10:41,116 --> 00:10:43,796 Speaker 1: think I think it's important that you have different interests, 160 00:10:43,796 --> 00:10:46,036 Speaker 1: but it's also important that you share some interests, right, 161 00:10:47,476 --> 00:10:52,876 Speaker 1: and it's important that they understand what you're doing. So yeah, yeah, 162 00:10:53,316 --> 00:10:58,036 Speaker 1: In many ways, you're chewing up time that might otherwise 163 00:10:58,276 --> 00:11:04,116 Speaker 1: be devoted to differences that cause anger and yeah, right, yeah, 164 00:11:04,196 --> 00:11:07,996 Speaker 1: and the words, it saves you from what other couples 165 00:11:08,116 --> 00:11:14,356 Speaker 1: might devote to conflict. And that's true, although often we 166 00:11:14,516 --> 00:11:18,716 Speaker 1: have friendly disagreements. You know, I think the court went 167 00:11:18,756 --> 00:11:22,716 Speaker 1: too far on this or when Clarence Thomas said X, 168 00:11:23,556 --> 00:11:26,236 Speaker 1: I didn't see any basis for that, and then he 169 00:11:26,276 --> 00:11:31,236 Speaker 1: would say, well, you've got to look at it this way. So, yes, 170 00:11:31,476 --> 00:11:36,996 Speaker 1: we avoid topics of conflict, but we have lively disagree. 171 00:11:37,916 --> 00:11:40,476 Speaker 1: I have a lawyers fight. That's interesting. Well, I mean, 172 00:11:40,916 --> 00:11:43,796 Speaker 1: I think I think actually one thing I hadn't really 173 00:11:43,836 --> 00:11:46,596 Speaker 1: thought about this before, but but I think maybe one 174 00:11:46,636 --> 00:11:52,876 Speaker 1: thing that helps in times of conflict is being lawyers 175 00:11:52,916 --> 00:11:56,996 Speaker 1: because as lawyers you understand that there are different points 176 00:11:56,996 --> 00:11:59,956 Speaker 1: of view. You're always dealing with somebody who has a 177 00:11:59,956 --> 00:12:04,436 Speaker 1: different point of view, and and you understand that somebody 178 00:12:04,476 --> 00:12:07,076 Speaker 1: who is your adversary is not your enemy. But I think, 179 00:12:07,236 --> 00:12:10,836 Speaker 1: I think more important is it if you keep in 180 00:12:11,196 --> 00:12:18,796 Speaker 1: context disputes, disagreements. If you get angry, and you keep 181 00:12:18,836 --> 00:12:22,996 Speaker 1: that in the context of the overall relationship, you don't, 182 00:12:23,996 --> 00:12:27,396 Speaker 1: you're not likely to powder go off or or stay 183 00:12:27,436 --> 00:12:33,596 Speaker 1: angry very long because you understand that it's such a 184 00:12:33,636 --> 00:12:38,836 Speaker 1: tiny part of your relationship, in such a small part 185 00:12:39,436 --> 00:12:43,116 Speaker 1: of your time together. As a couple, They've had a 186 00:12:43,116 --> 00:12:46,916 Speaker 1: lot of joy, but no shortage of tragedy either. David 187 00:12:46,956 --> 00:12:50,596 Speaker 1: in particular, has had his share of heartbreak. I've lost 188 00:12:50,636 --> 00:12:54,676 Speaker 1: two children. Oh yeah, my daughter had lung cancer. My 189 00:12:54,756 --> 00:13:00,276 Speaker 1: son and this aneurism. She was forty eight, and he 190 00:13:00,476 --> 00:13:05,236 Speaker 1: was fifty terrible. My job was to be there. There's 191 00:13:05,276 --> 00:13:07,916 Speaker 1: nothing you can say. You're never the same when you 192 00:13:07,956 --> 00:13:13,916 Speaker 1: lose a child. So I m. When we first heard 193 00:13:13,916 --> 00:13:19,476 Speaker 1: that Jonathan was in a bad way, you said, I, 194 00:13:20,516 --> 00:13:24,476 Speaker 1: I can't do this again, and I said you can 195 00:13:24,596 --> 00:13:31,516 Speaker 1: and we will, we must and and we are. Ye. 196 00:13:32,356 --> 00:13:35,116 Speaker 1: That's what marriage is kind of for, to be the 197 00:13:35,156 --> 00:13:39,916 Speaker 1: cushion of life. Right. When my father died, I loved 198 00:13:39,996 --> 00:13:42,676 Speaker 1: him so much and he was my best friend ever. 199 00:13:43,556 --> 00:13:47,556 Speaker 1: You know, I was a real daddy's girl. And when 200 00:13:47,596 --> 00:13:52,636 Speaker 1: he died, I just, I mean I just grieved something terrible. 201 00:13:52,836 --> 00:13:55,276 Speaker 1: You know. I went to a shrink that I had 202 00:13:55,316 --> 00:13:58,836 Speaker 1: gone to years before, and I said, I, this is like, 203 00:13:59,036 --> 00:14:01,076 Speaker 1: is this sick that I'm crying so much? You know? 204 00:14:01,596 --> 00:14:04,276 Speaker 1: What is? You know? He said, no, this is what 205 00:14:04,516 --> 00:14:07,396 Speaker 1: life is. He said, And this is why some people 206 00:14:07,916 --> 00:14:10,876 Speaker 1: don't commit to love, Yeah, because they know at the 207 00:14:11,156 --> 00:14:14,436 Speaker 1: end somewhere something's going to happen. The loss is gonna happen. 208 00:14:14,596 --> 00:14:19,516 Speaker 1: Right And Phil, God, Phil just brought me through it 209 00:14:19,556 --> 00:14:21,916 Speaker 1: and had my mom come and live with us for 210 00:14:21,996 --> 00:14:24,596 Speaker 1: three months. I mean, and she was a mess and 211 00:14:24,956 --> 00:14:29,596 Speaker 1: I was a mess. He just entertained us everybody invited people. 212 00:14:30,076 --> 00:14:32,596 Speaker 1: He took us out. I mean it was just we 213 00:14:32,756 --> 00:14:35,156 Speaker 1: both my mother and I were both basket cases. But 214 00:14:35,316 --> 00:14:40,076 Speaker 1: he really came through it, really, And that's the cushion. Oh, 215 00:14:40,156 --> 00:14:45,276 Speaker 1: a good Irish man, a good Irish lad. Yeah, we'll 216 00:14:45,316 --> 00:14:57,036 Speaker 1: have more. After a quick break, we're back to our 217 00:14:57,076 --> 00:15:01,436 Speaker 1: conversation with David and Mary. Boys. They're both so smart. 218 00:15:01,516 --> 00:15:04,476 Speaker 1: It's hard to believe that David was dropping out after 219 00:15:04,596 --> 00:15:06,836 Speaker 1: high school. I mean, I don't know what would happened 220 00:15:06,996 --> 00:15:09,796 Speaker 1: if my first wife had not gotten me go to college. 221 00:15:09,796 --> 00:15:14,316 Speaker 1: But why didn't you want to go? I didn't like school. 222 00:15:14,716 --> 00:15:18,796 Speaker 1: I'm dyslexic. As I got further along in school, reading 223 00:15:18,956 --> 00:15:22,276 Speaker 1: was I didn't really like reading the law? How did 224 00:15:22,276 --> 00:15:24,556 Speaker 1: you do it? I listened well. I can learn almost 225 00:15:24,556 --> 00:15:27,196 Speaker 1: everything I wanted just listening in class to my professors. 226 00:15:27,596 --> 00:15:30,156 Speaker 1: I'm still not a great reader, but I mean I 227 00:15:30,156 --> 00:15:32,756 Speaker 1: didn't read at all until I was in third grade. Nothing. 228 00:15:33,836 --> 00:15:37,596 Speaker 1: The most important thing is to understand that it is 229 00:15:37,636 --> 00:15:41,836 Speaker 1: an input problem. It's not a processing problems. It is 230 00:15:41,956 --> 00:15:48,396 Speaker 1: an ability to absorb information. It's not how well you think. 231 00:15:48,516 --> 00:15:55,476 Speaker 1: I mean, there's no negative correlation between dyslexia and intelligence. Right, 232 00:15:55,556 --> 00:15:58,316 Speaker 1: But all those facts that you have to gather in 233 00:15:58,436 --> 00:16:01,036 Speaker 1: order to make a case, all the research I have 234 00:16:01,156 --> 00:16:03,996 Speaker 1: to do, and I do have to do some reading. 235 00:16:03,996 --> 00:16:07,316 Speaker 1: But as I said, I listened really well. I think 236 00:16:07,436 --> 00:16:12,876 Speaker 1: it has taught me to organize my thoughts, to simplify things, 237 00:16:13,476 --> 00:16:15,916 Speaker 1: see how the things are important, because you can't read everything. 238 00:16:17,436 --> 00:16:22,276 Speaker 1: That's breathtaking. It really is. I bet you can't imagine it, right. 239 00:16:23,516 --> 00:16:27,836 Speaker 1: I'm not hard wired that way, but I don't have 240 00:16:27,956 --> 00:16:34,596 Speaker 1: his processing power. But it's fun to live with. So 241 00:16:34,996 --> 00:16:37,396 Speaker 1: where are you on the jealousy meter? I'm sicilian, I'm 242 00:16:37,476 --> 00:16:43,996 Speaker 1: very jealous. David has friends who are women, and they 243 00:16:44,076 --> 00:16:48,396 Speaker 1: are friends, and I was jealous for a while, but 244 00:16:48,436 --> 00:16:50,956 Speaker 1: then I put that away. I said, how did you 245 00:16:50,996 --> 00:16:53,116 Speaker 1: deal with it? I said, you know what, if he 246 00:16:53,196 --> 00:16:55,356 Speaker 1: wanted to be with him, he'd be with him. He's 247 00:16:56,476 --> 00:16:59,836 Speaker 1: left two wives, he knows how to do it. He 248 00:16:59,876 --> 00:17:02,316 Speaker 1: doesn't want to be here, He'll just go off. So 249 00:17:02,556 --> 00:17:08,996 Speaker 1: why am I thinking about this? I figured we off 250 00:17:09,156 --> 00:17:12,276 Speaker 1: and had his former wives or one of them come 251 00:17:12,276 --> 00:17:19,876 Speaker 1: on vacations because they're grandchildren and children were there, and 252 00:17:19,916 --> 00:17:22,636 Speaker 1: he asked me, once, do you mind if Carol comes 253 00:17:22,636 --> 00:17:26,396 Speaker 1: on the Christmas trip, I thought his first wife, and 254 00:17:26,436 --> 00:17:30,516 Speaker 1: I thought, why would I mind? Because her four children 255 00:17:31,236 --> 00:17:34,836 Speaker 1: who were still growing up and then grandchildren were on 256 00:17:34,876 --> 00:17:37,956 Speaker 1: those trips, and you're spending a week in the Caribbean. 257 00:17:38,196 --> 00:17:40,956 Speaker 1: How can I say grandmother can't be there. So I 258 00:17:41,116 --> 00:17:44,436 Speaker 1: said him myself, if he wanted to be with her, 259 00:17:45,076 --> 00:17:47,516 Speaker 1: he would be with her. So yeah, bring her on. 260 00:17:48,596 --> 00:17:51,836 Speaker 1: And I really meant that. And it's been good, and 261 00:17:51,876 --> 00:17:54,916 Speaker 1: it's good for the children. Yeah, I'm sure it is, 262 00:17:55,356 --> 00:17:59,356 Speaker 1: but I'm not jealous of them at all. His second 263 00:17:59,356 --> 00:18:02,356 Speaker 1: wife is a friend of mine. Yeah. When I met her, 264 00:18:02,396 --> 00:18:05,996 Speaker 1: I sort of gasped and thought, that's me ten years older. 265 00:18:06,996 --> 00:18:11,716 Speaker 1: That's how this works. Okay, you know, it'll be fun 266 00:18:11,796 --> 00:18:15,116 Speaker 1: while it last. Turns out it did last. One of 267 00:18:15,156 --> 00:18:16,956 Speaker 1: the things I think that we've learned from a lot 268 00:18:16,996 --> 00:18:22,636 Speaker 1: of these couples is that people a change things about 269 00:18:22,676 --> 00:18:27,196 Speaker 1: themselves in order to accommodate another person. Well. Well, I mean, 270 00:18:28,036 --> 00:18:34,836 Speaker 1: for example, she wanted to tear down my house, and 271 00:18:36,116 --> 00:18:38,236 Speaker 1: that seemed to me at the time to be a 272 00:18:38,316 --> 00:18:42,836 Speaker 1: really bad idea, because I thought it was a perfectly 273 00:18:42,876 --> 00:18:48,836 Speaker 1: good house, a ranch style, hideous of rubbish. It was. 274 00:18:49,036 --> 00:18:50,796 Speaker 1: It was a nicer house than I'd ever lived in 275 00:18:50,836 --> 00:18:53,596 Speaker 1: my life until then, and I thought it was I 276 00:18:53,636 --> 00:18:57,796 Speaker 1: thought it was perfectly good. Now I eventually understood that 277 00:18:58,276 --> 00:19:03,276 Speaker 1: building another house was more important to her than keeping 278 00:19:03,396 --> 00:19:06,796 Speaker 1: the house that we had was to me. And once 279 00:19:06,836 --> 00:19:09,996 Speaker 1: I understood that, I was perfectly happy to tear down 280 00:19:10,036 --> 00:19:13,956 Speaker 1: the house and build a new one. And as in 281 00:19:14,076 --> 00:19:17,436 Speaker 1: so many things, she was right, because this is a 282 00:19:17,516 --> 00:19:20,996 Speaker 1: much nicer house, and I'm much happier here than I 283 00:19:21,036 --> 00:19:23,596 Speaker 1: would have been if we hadn't torn down the durned 284 00:19:23,596 --> 00:19:26,116 Speaker 1: the house and built this one. But you were able 285 00:19:26,316 --> 00:19:29,396 Speaker 1: to not make that a power struggle and just and 286 00:19:29,516 --> 00:19:32,436 Speaker 1: just say, Okay, this means more to her than to me. 287 00:19:32,836 --> 00:19:35,556 Speaker 1: It does. And also and also you know, there are 288 00:19:35,556 --> 00:19:37,916 Speaker 1: lots of things that I don't do so well, and 289 00:19:37,996 --> 00:19:39,676 Speaker 1: a lot of things that I don't know so well 290 00:19:39,956 --> 00:19:42,356 Speaker 1: that she knows better than I do and does better 291 00:19:42,356 --> 00:19:47,396 Speaker 1: than I do. Each of us is very conscious of 292 00:19:48,356 --> 00:19:51,596 Speaker 1: if there's something that's more important to the other than 293 00:19:51,676 --> 00:19:55,036 Speaker 1: it is to us, that we just decide to do 294 00:19:55,076 --> 00:19:58,276 Speaker 1: it the way the other one wants to. For example, 295 00:19:58,676 --> 00:20:02,276 Speaker 1: one of the things that I did before we were 296 00:20:02,316 --> 00:20:07,516 Speaker 1: married was I would go to Las Vegas often and 297 00:20:07,676 --> 00:20:14,516 Speaker 1: when we got married. Um, Mary despised Las Vegas. She 298 00:20:14,716 --> 00:20:18,596 Speaker 1: you know, I mean the first time we went, she 299 00:20:19,476 --> 00:20:22,196 Speaker 1: pointed out that most of the men there were wearing 300 00:20:22,196 --> 00:20:27,156 Speaker 1: more jewelry than she was. And um, I mean she 301 00:20:27,996 --> 00:20:33,076 Speaker 1: there was almost nothing there that she really liked. But um, 302 00:20:33,116 --> 00:20:37,116 Speaker 1: and then then she realized that I enjoyed going there, 303 00:20:37,276 --> 00:20:40,836 Speaker 1: and um, and I'd like to gamble, and I liked 304 00:20:40,836 --> 00:20:43,716 Speaker 1: the shows, and I liked and I liked the ambiance 305 00:20:43,756 --> 00:20:49,716 Speaker 1: and um and so she um uh and not grudgingly. 306 00:20:50,196 --> 00:20:52,716 Speaker 1: When you do something for somebody, don't do it grudgingly. 307 00:20:52,796 --> 00:20:56,756 Speaker 1: Don't don't make them feel that you're doing them a favor. 308 00:20:57,236 --> 00:20:59,196 Speaker 1: And she has sort of embraced going to Las Vegas. 309 00:20:59,236 --> 00:21:02,596 Speaker 1: And I think, although she may tell you differently when 310 00:21:02,676 --> 00:21:06,076 Speaker 1: the microphones are off and you're a private, but I 311 00:21:06,436 --> 00:21:10,036 Speaker 1: think she actually enjoys going there. How often do you go? 312 00:21:10,556 --> 00:21:14,476 Speaker 1: Probably three or four times a year, wow, to Vegas? 313 00:21:16,916 --> 00:21:18,596 Speaker 1: See what I did? I used to I used to 314 00:21:18,596 --> 00:21:20,596 Speaker 1: go six times a year. Wow. I used to go 315 00:21:20,636 --> 00:21:23,556 Speaker 1: every other month, but but now about three or four times. 316 00:21:23,916 --> 00:21:29,916 Speaker 1: I lost twenty dollars and I was depressed. I didn't 317 00:21:29,956 --> 00:21:33,516 Speaker 1: have twenty dollars worth of fun. Yeah, right back when 318 00:21:34,236 --> 00:21:38,676 Speaker 1: I didn't have a chance. Well what about you though, Well, 319 00:21:38,716 --> 00:21:42,836 Speaker 1: here's what I did. I figured out, okay, this gee, 320 00:21:42,916 --> 00:21:47,036 Speaker 1: I thought he was so intelligent. Here we are going 321 00:21:47,076 --> 00:21:50,996 Speaker 1: to lost Vegas. Now. He never went crazy, you know, 322 00:21:51,036 --> 00:21:53,276 Speaker 1: he never lost a lot of money. You know, he 323 00:21:53,356 --> 00:21:59,436 Speaker 1: never gambled the house. Yeah. And I decided, all right, 324 00:21:59,596 --> 00:22:02,196 Speaker 1: he likes to do this, I don't. We do stuff 325 00:22:02,196 --> 00:22:03,956 Speaker 1: I like to do that he doesn't like to do. 326 00:22:04,076 --> 00:22:07,676 Speaker 1: So we'll leave in it out. And I said, what 327 00:22:07,756 --> 00:22:10,916 Speaker 1: can I do there that I like? I like to 328 00:22:10,996 --> 00:22:14,316 Speaker 1: hit tennis balls. So we would go there and I 329 00:22:14,316 --> 00:22:17,476 Speaker 1: would hire the pro and I'd spend the afternoon on 330 00:22:17,516 --> 00:22:20,916 Speaker 1: the tennis court. And I was perfectly happy. Yeah, and 331 00:22:20,996 --> 00:22:24,316 Speaker 1: I so I just decided, he likes to do this, 332 00:22:25,316 --> 00:22:27,556 Speaker 1: We do stuff I like to do that he doesn't, 333 00:22:27,916 --> 00:22:33,116 Speaker 1: and so I'll find a niche Yeah, and I did. 334 00:22:33,556 --> 00:22:36,196 Speaker 1: I find. Now it's fun to go that's and the 335 00:22:36,236 --> 00:22:41,156 Speaker 1: shows are good. That's I think I can never stamp good. Yeah. 336 00:22:41,556 --> 00:22:44,516 Speaker 1: And so what are some of the things that he 337 00:22:44,636 --> 00:22:47,956 Speaker 1: does for you that that he doesn't like to do 338 00:22:47,996 --> 00:22:52,396 Speaker 1: what you like to do. I might be wrong about this, 339 00:22:52,476 --> 00:22:58,636 Speaker 1: but when we first started taking bike trips as a vacation, right, 340 00:22:58,796 --> 00:23:06,196 Speaker 1: a vacation. You're you know, you're grinding your way about. Yeah, 341 00:23:06,396 --> 00:23:09,916 Speaker 1: that's Our first bike trip was twenty nine, nine years ago, 342 00:23:10,836 --> 00:23:13,596 Speaker 1: and we've been doing them ever since. Really we do 343 00:23:13,716 --> 00:23:17,276 Speaker 1: two or three a year. Wow. And it's perfectly clear 344 00:23:18,236 --> 00:23:20,556 Speaker 1: that he does that. I think, you know, it's like 345 00:23:20,636 --> 00:23:23,076 Speaker 1: me in Las Vegas. I think now kind of like it. 346 00:23:23,196 --> 00:23:25,996 Speaker 1: I have come to sort of like it. Um, but 347 00:23:26,196 --> 00:23:32,036 Speaker 1: um in the beginning the idea of um, I mean, 348 00:23:32,116 --> 00:23:33,956 Speaker 1: you get it. These bike trips. You go for a 349 00:23:33,996 --> 00:23:42,276 Speaker 1: week and you and you travel like forty fifty sometimes 350 00:23:42,316 --> 00:23:47,196 Speaker 1: sixty miles a day, Oh my god, and get up 351 00:23:47,236 --> 00:23:50,636 Speaker 1: early and um you so hey, I don't like to 352 00:23:50,676 --> 00:23:54,836 Speaker 1: get up early, be I don't really dislike exercise, but 353 00:23:54,956 --> 00:23:57,436 Speaker 1: not a high priority for me. I'm just fascinated that 354 00:23:57,476 --> 00:24:00,396 Speaker 1: you do these bike trips. I'm gonna really. One of 355 00:24:00,436 --> 00:24:05,196 Speaker 1: the nice things is that we're together the entire day, 356 00:24:05,916 --> 00:24:08,996 Speaker 1: nothing else happening. You know, we can just ride together, 357 00:24:09,236 --> 00:24:14,636 Speaker 1: talk and it's very peaceful. Yeah. There came a time 358 00:24:14,676 --> 00:24:17,476 Speaker 1: when I said to you, whatever you want to do, 359 00:24:17,596 --> 00:24:21,436 Speaker 1: I want to do wow, And I thought to myself, 360 00:24:22,476 --> 00:24:25,676 Speaker 1: here you are. You're a lawyer. You're a feminist and 361 00:24:25,756 --> 00:24:30,036 Speaker 1: you're saying to this man, whatever you want. And I thought, 362 00:24:30,116 --> 00:24:36,796 Speaker 1: good grief, it's come to this. But a lot of 363 00:24:36,876 --> 00:24:41,996 Speaker 1: things changed. It wasn't a negotiation anymore. The next day 364 00:24:42,076 --> 00:24:45,956 Speaker 1: he became a nicer person who was and it became 365 00:24:45,996 --> 00:24:51,556 Speaker 1: an upward spiral. I think that's kindness, and it changed everything. 366 00:24:51,596 --> 00:24:54,916 Speaker 1: And I remember if, well, actually, whatever you want to Taiwan, 367 00:24:55,916 --> 00:24:59,036 Speaker 1: because I really felt the same way. We decided. I 368 00:24:59,036 --> 00:25:02,236 Speaker 1: don't know, ten years into our marriage, we've been bickering 369 00:25:02,276 --> 00:25:07,276 Speaker 1: about unimportant things, and we just decided are we in 370 00:25:07,436 --> 00:25:11,396 Speaker 1: or are we out married? Or aren't we? If we're married, 371 00:25:11,996 --> 00:25:15,996 Speaker 1: let's make that a really good thing. And so when 372 00:25:16,036 --> 00:25:20,676 Speaker 1: we disagree on stuff, and I think he has an 373 00:25:20,716 --> 00:25:26,596 Speaker 1: eye with what's really important here, a great, loving marriage. 374 00:25:26,676 --> 00:25:30,516 Speaker 1: So he's dead wrong on this issue, Who cares? I 375 00:25:30,556 --> 00:25:33,756 Speaker 1: don't really, I don't have to win every argument. Is 376 00:25:33,796 --> 00:25:36,876 Speaker 1: one of you more likely to be the peacemaker or 377 00:25:37,556 --> 00:25:43,836 Speaker 1: oh me? Of course? No, I don't think either one 378 00:25:43,876 --> 00:25:46,116 Speaker 1: of us. Yea, I would not say. I think we 379 00:25:46,236 --> 00:25:48,156 Speaker 1: kind of trade around on that. I would say either 380 00:25:48,276 --> 00:25:51,476 Speaker 1: one of us. I think that we're both pretty good. 381 00:25:51,916 --> 00:25:56,476 Speaker 1: As I say at keeping things in context. I'm married 382 00:25:56,516 --> 00:26:00,516 Speaker 1: to someone who is not your typical great lawyer. He 383 00:26:00,676 --> 00:26:04,476 Speaker 1: is off the charts. I use that to my advantage. 384 00:26:05,036 --> 00:26:08,196 Speaker 1: I don't resent that, you know, I learned stuff from him. 385 00:26:08,316 --> 00:26:13,676 Speaker 1: I still are you, I respond, but you pretty much 386 00:26:15,036 --> 00:26:19,196 Speaker 1: dazzle me with what you come up with, and I 387 00:26:19,236 --> 00:26:24,796 Speaker 1: love it. That's Mary and David boys. I don't know 388 00:26:24,836 --> 00:26:26,876 Speaker 1: how they could be more in tune with each other. 389 00:26:27,076 --> 00:26:30,236 Speaker 1: It was so moving to see how they share each 390 00:26:30,236 --> 00:26:34,436 Speaker 1: other's joys and sorrows and passions. That's what marriage is 391 00:26:34,436 --> 00:26:38,356 Speaker 1: all about. Until next time, I'm filled down at you 392 00:26:38,716 --> 00:26:41,796 Speaker 1: and I'm Marlo Thomas. I I don't need to be 393 00:26:41,876 --> 00:26:45,996 Speaker 1: right right. I can tell myself I'm right. Double Day 394 00:26:46,156 --> 00:26:49,716 Speaker 1: is a production of Pushkin Industries. The show was created 395 00:26:49,796 --> 00:26:53,956 Speaker 1: by US and produced by Sarah Lily. Michael Bahari is 396 00:26:53,996 --> 00:26:57,796 Speaker 1: associate producer. Musical adaptations of It Had to Be You 397 00:26:58,396 --> 00:27:03,836 Speaker 1: by Stellwagon Sympinet. Marlo and I are executive producers, along 398 00:27:03,836 --> 00:27:09,036 Speaker 1: with Mia Lobell and Letal Molad from Pushkin Special Thing 399 00:27:09,116 --> 00:27:14,556 Speaker 1: Thanks to Jacob Weisberg, Malcolm Gladwell, Heather Faine, John Snars, 400 00:27:14,996 --> 00:27:21,596 Speaker 1: Carly Migliori, Eric Sandler, Emily Rostek, Jason Gambrel, Paul Williams, 401 00:27:21,836 --> 00:27:26,516 Speaker 1: and Bruce Klucker. If you like our show, please remember 402 00:27:26,556 --> 00:27:30,516 Speaker 1: to share, rate, and review. Thanks for listening.