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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for

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Speaker 1: deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host,

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Speaker 1: Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: your host, Mark Kenyan. This is episode number one six

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Speaker 1: one Tayni show. We are joined by Marcus Lashly, a

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Speaker 1: wildlife biologist and assistant professor at Mississippi State University, and

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking all sorts of things related to

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Speaker 1: white tailed deer, habitat, mineral stumps, predators, and the moon's

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Speaker 1: potential impact on deer. All right, welcome to the Wired

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Speaker 1: to Hunt podcast, brought to you by Sick Gear. And

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Speaker 1: today in the show, we are going to be joined

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Speaker 1: by Marcus Lashly, a wildlife biologist and assistant professor at

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Speaker 1: Mississippi State University. And Mark works within the Deer Lab

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Speaker 1: at Mississippi State and you might remember hearing about that

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Speaker 1: on a past episode when we had Bronson Strickland on

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Speaker 1: here earlier this year. But basically what this means that

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Speaker 1: Marcus has been and is involved in a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of fascinating research projects related to white tailed deer, and

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Speaker 1: in particular, Marcus has looked a lot into things related

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Speaker 1: to white tailed deer habitat. So today the plan is

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Speaker 1: to pick Marcus's brain all about deer habitat and what

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Speaker 1: they need in their habitat, how we can improve it,

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Speaker 1: and um a whole bunch of stuff related to that,

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Speaker 1: but then also some things related to hunting to UM.

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Speaker 1: In particular, he's done some really interesting research related to

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Speaker 1: the moon and its impacts on deer. So I want

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Speaker 1: to ask Marcus about all those things and more. It's

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Speaker 1: going to be an interesting conversation. But before we bring

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Speaker 1: Marcus on the line, and this is for the seven

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Speaker 1: of you who enjoy our long and winding introductions. Right,

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Speaker 1: how are you taking? Seven? Seven of us? Right, Jim

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Speaker 1: John on, how you doing? I think there's seven people

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Speaker 1: like al right, I love this section, So this is

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Speaker 1: for for those seven. How are you man? I'm good you,

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Speaker 1: I'm very well. I'm very well. Had a a busy

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Speaker 1: deer related weekend and busy preparing for an exciting week ahead. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Uh sounds to me like you got a big buck

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Speaker 1: spotted in Michigan, right, Yeah, yeah, yes, yes, that's for sure.

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Speaker 1: Since so you know, when we talked UM last time

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Speaker 1: we record the podcast, I told you that I've gotten

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Speaker 1: like a tip about a big buck in the general

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Speaker 1: area of one of my hunting properties. UM, and I

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Speaker 1: was gonna go check it out that night. While I

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Speaker 1: did go check it out that night, and they weren't kidding.

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Speaker 1: I saw a really nice Michigan buck. Um. Definitely one

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Speaker 1: of the better bucks I've seen in that general area.

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Speaker 1: UM and all the time I've been hunting down around there. So, UM,

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Speaker 1: four year old. Yeah, at least four at least four UM.

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Speaker 1: Hard to say if he's older than that, but definitely

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Speaker 1: four older. UM. And I'm kind of you know, based

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Speaker 1: on where he's at right now with growth, I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be surprised if this buck makes it into the one fifties. UM.

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Speaker 1: So he's I mean, that's a Michigan stud I've never

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to think here, um, on any of my

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Speaker 1: Michigan properties that I can hunt, I have not had

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Speaker 1: a buck that big that was on my property on

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Speaker 1: a proper decord hunt during the hunting season. So I

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Speaker 1: have seen deer this big during the summer in the

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Speaker 1: general area, but I've yet to have one that big

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Speaker 1: that's stuck around for hunting seasons. So we'll see. Maybe

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Speaker 1: this is one that does stick around on one of

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Speaker 1: the spots I can hunt, and um, you know, he'd

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Speaker 1: be a nice constellation prize if holy Field never shows.

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Speaker 1: So that's that that that for sure. It is not

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Speaker 1: holy Field though, right, yeah, it's it's not holy Field. Um,

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Speaker 1: it is in the same general area. Um. So you know,

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Speaker 1: like I said, if holy Fields not around, this buck

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Speaker 1: could potentially fill that gap. Um. But no word on

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Speaker 1: holy Field yet. I've been driving around a lot in

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Speaker 1: this area looking for things looking for him, and nothing

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Speaker 1: in the bean fields yet. But um, this is a

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Speaker 1: heck of a deer and I'm excited about that. So

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Speaker 1: did that, and then have been out a few more

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Speaker 1: nights looking for deer. And then over the weekend I

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Speaker 1: hung three news stands, um and put a fake scrape

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Speaker 1: tree in one of my food plots and moved a

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Speaker 1: hay bail blind to a new area. Um. So I

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Speaker 1: been doing a whole bunch of stuff over the weekend,

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Speaker 1: just getting things the final prep situated. And I just

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Speaker 1: have a few little like I gotta put one more

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Speaker 1: fake scrape tree up, I gotta move a couple of

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Speaker 1: cameras and then I'm done until the hunting season for

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Speaker 1: that spot for this general area. So right, and then

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Speaker 1: what about because you mentioned you were going to be

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Speaker 1: doing some publicly and scouting as well. Yeah, so I can't.

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Speaker 1: Oh you know, I think I meant and that I

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Speaker 1: was going to tell you about the public land scouting

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Speaker 1: i'd done. Um, this is like two weeks ago. Now,

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Speaker 1: I spent a good amount of time on some land

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Speaker 1: down um, down this neck of the woods. And long

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Speaker 1: story short, it looks really good. Um it's there's some

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Speaker 1: big country. It's kind of gnarrowly. It's not like the

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Speaker 1: easy stuff you can just walk into a hundred yards

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Speaker 1: off the side of the road. And um, you know,

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Speaker 1: being deer, I think that I found some places that

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Speaker 1: are tough enough to access for the average guy, that

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Speaker 1: I might be able to find some little pockets of

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Speaker 1: deer that feel comfortable in. Particularly found once about there's

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Speaker 1: a bunch of swampy stuff, and I found an island

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Speaker 1: of high ground in the middle of that swamp. And

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Speaker 1: there's just like one little bridge of high ground that

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Speaker 1: connects it to it, and that little funnel connecting the

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Speaker 1: island to the main high stuff was just littered with

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Speaker 1: old rubs and trails coming in and out of there

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Speaker 1: and I found some what looked like for sure a

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Speaker 1: buck bed down at the end of the point on

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Speaker 1: the island, in a few dough bedding areas, UM, maybe

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Speaker 1: fifty two hundred yards away from that. So like some

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Speaker 1: very promising stuff. UM. And then I was out actually

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Speaker 1: scouting in the evening, checking out some bean fields that

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Speaker 1: were adjacent to that public And this was just maybe

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Speaker 1: two or three nights ago. I saw a pretty nice

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Speaker 1: buck right next to the public land. UM. Not a giant,

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Speaker 1: but at least a three year old um and something

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Speaker 1: i'd be pretty pumped about to get on some Michigan

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Speaker 1: public So so yeah, that was good, Like I'm excited,

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Speaker 1: like these final pieces are all coming together. And now

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Speaker 1: I realized that I leave a week from tomorrow and

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Speaker 1: I don't come back un till hunting season. So it's nuts.

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Speaker 1: So you're going to Montana just to chill the rest

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Speaker 1: of the summer, and then you're gonna be doing an

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Speaker 1: antelope punt, an elk hunt, and a North Dakota mules

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Speaker 1: your hunt. You're kind of you're kind of off on

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Speaker 1: all of it. Okay, Well that's why that's because I

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Speaker 1: don't talk to you enough. Mark, I thought we were friends.

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Speaker 1: I know that you're you're kind of close. Um, so

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna be sort of hanging out in color Otto, Wyoming,

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Speaker 1: in Montana for the next month six weeks or so,

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Speaker 1: five weeks um as far As Hunts Montana and Lo Hunt,

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Speaker 1: then Montana whitetail Hunt, then in the North Dakota whitetail on.

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Speaker 1: No elk hunt this year. No, I'll come this year, Okay, Okay,

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Speaker 1: just trying to. I think I'm gonna try to, you know,

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Speaker 1: like you've been talking about, just trying to wreck up

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Speaker 1: some points until I can go to a slightly better

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Speaker 1: area because where we went it just seems like the

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Speaker 1: pressure keeps on building there. Yeah, most definitely. Yeah, I'll

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Speaker 1: tell you what I'm Obviously this year I finally had

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Speaker 1: to call it, you know, and say I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to be able to go on my elk hunt this year. No, yep,

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Speaker 1: So you know I don't. I don't want to. I

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Speaker 1: don't want to be that dad who something happens and

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Speaker 1: he's like literally and if I were up in the

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Speaker 1: mountain to the time it would take me to walk

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Speaker 1: back to my car truck and then drive home would

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Speaker 1: be over twenty four hours, and I would be I

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Speaker 1: would just feel horrible for the rest of my life

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Speaker 1: if I missed my son's birth. You know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: And I don't want to be that guy. And uh,

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Speaker 1: but next year I will be doing some out of

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Speaker 1: state hunting. You mark my words. Good. You need that

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Speaker 1: adventure in your life, Dan, I definitely need that adventure

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Speaker 1: in my life. I feel like I'm in a cage

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Speaker 1: right now. You told me this called mensco. You wake

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Speaker 1: up every morning, you don't know where you are. What's

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Speaker 1: going on in my life? I could be Alzeimer's to Um,

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Speaker 1: can you push your ELK trip earlier? Could you do

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Speaker 1: like an early ELK trip, like first week in September? Um, well,

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Speaker 1: I could go. Well, it is the first week right

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Speaker 1: sons later we'll see September one is on like a

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Speaker 1: Friday or Saturday this year, so it's the first week.

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Speaker 1: But the opener of that ELK season is the last

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Speaker 1: week in August. Now I could go if I wanted to,

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Speaker 1: But the group of guys, I'm going with a group

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Speaker 1: of guys, so they all have scheduled already to go

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Speaker 1: that first week of September. So I would have to

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Speaker 1: be i'd be running solo and where where we had

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Speaker 1: planned ongoing. You need some experience to go up there,

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Speaker 1: and probably experience with someone who knows what they're doing. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's really steep and it's in Colorado, so it's it's

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Speaker 1: it is high country. Will probably be close to twelve thousand. Yeah, well, um,

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Speaker 1: tend to twelve Yeah. If you want to drive out

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Speaker 1: to Montana and hunt antelope with me for a couple

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Speaker 1: of days, when's that, uh, the last couple of days

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Speaker 1: of August before because it will be a period of

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Speaker 1: time between when my wife is gonna leave. She's gonna

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Speaker 1: beet up with a friend I think, and take off

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Speaker 1: like the last day of hours or something, and then

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Speaker 1: I'll have like a two or three days before the

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Speaker 1: white tail season opens up that I was gonna hunt

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Speaker 1: antelope and scout for white tails. Um, you might be

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Speaker 1: a still draw tag m. Let's talk after the show,

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Speaker 1: my friend. I mean, you know, I can I can't

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Speaker 1: handle Dan not being able to have a little bit

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Speaker 1: of Western adventure in his life. But check this out right,

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Speaker 1: So I restructured my vacation hours at work and I

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Speaker 1: don't have my phone with me. Well, I just wait

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Speaker 1: one second, let me let me tell you something real quick. Okay. July, August, September, October, November.

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Speaker 1: So right now, I at at work. I have accepted

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Speaker 1: an approved vacation from November six to November is Thanksgiving,

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Speaker 1: so I get those off anyway, So I have three

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Speaker 1: straight weeks off of work. Now that is good news. Right.

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Speaker 1: So the goal is on November six to shoot my

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Speaker 1: buck and then that would be nice, right, don't have

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Speaker 1: to grind it out again, and then maybe go to

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Speaker 1: Nebraska to do what our meal the hunt. It would

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Speaker 1: be one or the other. I'd be able to shoot both.

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Speaker 1: I get one tag. But that's just daydreaming at this point.

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Speaker 1: I like where your heads that though those sand hills

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Speaker 1: they're calling to your aren't the man? Ever since I've

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Speaker 1: ever since I went out there, I think about that

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Speaker 1: place every day. It's crazy. Well, when we started talking

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Speaker 1: about it last summer, about me potentially going out with

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Speaker 1: you for for some type hunt, that got me like

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Speaker 1: all obsessing about it and thinking about it, and uh man,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of opportunity out there, and you know

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Speaker 1: this is this is exactly the kind of stuff that

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about in just a couple of

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Speaker 1: days at our live podcast recording, which is gonna be

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Speaker 1: pretty awesome. And I just want to remind everyone listening, um,

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Speaker 1: if you're listening to this on the day it comes out,

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Speaker 1: So this is Thursday July that this podcast is coming out. UM,

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Speaker 1: if you're listening to that now, Tomorrow Friday, July, Dan

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Speaker 1: and I are going to be a New Orleans at

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Speaker 1: the Quality Deer Management Association National Convention recording a live

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Speaker 1: episode of this podcast in front of the audience, and

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Speaker 1: you guys can be there. All you need to do

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Speaker 1: is go to cut May dot com to get the details.

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Speaker 1: It's am on the twenty one. We're gonna be doing that,

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Speaker 1: talking all about d I Y hunting trips. And we've

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Speaker 1: got a friend of mine who have wanted to have

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Speaker 1: on the podcast for a long time. He's gonna be

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Speaker 1: joining us as well. He's gonna have some really great

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Speaker 1: insight to share on this topic. It's it's gonna be

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Speaker 1: top notch. So I'm pumped about that. And then just

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Speaker 1: another reminder that evening Friday, July eight pm, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: have a Wired to Hunt meet up in downtown New Orleans. UM,

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to get some intel from guys that are

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Speaker 1: on the ground there right now as far as where

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Speaker 1: we should meet, but some kind of like bar grill

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Speaker 1: or something like that, some kind of bar down there

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Speaker 1: that's large enough for some people to hang out. Eight pm.

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Speaker 1: And as soon as we picked that location, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: be talking about it on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. I'll

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Speaker 1: put out the announcement then probably the next anytime now,

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Speaker 1: I'll have that announcement out, So look for that. If

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Speaker 1: you're in the area and you want to meet up

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Speaker 1: with us, say hi, meet some other wire hunt listeners.

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Speaker 1: That's eight pm Friday, July. So are you excited about that? Dan,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm really excited. Now. It's hot in New Orleans,

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Speaker 1: my friend, I'm excited for it, but it's hot down there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I I haven't looked at the weather yet, but I'm

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Speaker 1: sure it's going to be Have you have you looked

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Speaker 1: at the weather? I really don't care. I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm I sweat when it's forty degrees out, So I'm

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Speaker 1: that guy I believe that. Well, it's gonna be a

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Speaker 1: good time. So hopefully we're gonna see some of you

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Speaker 1: guys that you're listening right now. Hopefully we'll see you

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Speaker 1: in in just a short day or so. But um,

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Speaker 1: we need to we need to shut this intro down, Dan,

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Speaker 1: because our guest is ready to join us. So let's

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Speaker 1: take a quick second to think our partners at Sitka

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Speaker 1: Gear and then we'll be back with Marcus Lashly For

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Speaker 1: this week's Sitka story, we're joined by Sitka Ambassador Ed Grahams,

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Speaker 1: who tells us about a surprise elk encounter on a

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Speaker 1: public land haunt in Montana. Back in some other sitdown,

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Speaker 1: Bassadors and I were were artreal c counting in southern

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Speaker 1: southern Montana, and after days of rain and twelve inches

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Speaker 1: of snow, we finally got in on the elk the

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Speaker 1: bodyline and I saw her elk and we were trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out how to get to him. We some

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Speaker 1: heard them, but didn't know where they were, so we

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Speaker 1: ended up just hiking up the mountain trying to get

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Speaker 1: to where we last saw Will did we know after

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Speaker 1: walking through an opening we were right in the middle

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Speaker 1: of a herd about twenty elk. They had to have

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Speaker 1: seen us, but they didn't know what we were. We're

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Speaker 1: in our open country gear walking right through the middle

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Speaker 1: of a clearing, and unfortunately we didn't harvest one. The

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Speaker 1: big bowl came out slipped behind a tree at about

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Speaker 1: twenty yards and one of the funerals. The funerals changed

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Speaker 1: and the college busted and they took off. But it

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Speaker 1: was definitely the closest encounter I've ever had with her

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Speaker 1: milk on edge hunt. He was wearing Sitka's timberline pants

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Speaker 1: and jet Stream jacket. If you'd like to create a

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Speaker 1: sit of story of your own, or to learn more

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Speaker 1: about Sitka's technical hunting apparel, visit sitka gear dot com.

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Speaker 1: Alright with us, Now on the line is Marcus Lashly.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for being here with us. Oh really

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Speaker 1: glad to be here. Yeah, I UM. I think I

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Speaker 1: first heard about you when the Quality Deer Management Association

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Speaker 1: published a YouTube video of you a handful of years

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Speaker 1: ago talking about some of your studies that you've done

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Speaker 1: related to the deer and related to the moon and deer,

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Speaker 1: and I found that pretty fascinating, and since then I

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Speaker 1: followed some of your work through various studies and research

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Speaker 1: projects you've been doing, and it just seems like you

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Speaker 1: constantly have your hands in some interesting stuff. So we're

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Speaker 1: excited to Yeah, we're excited to try to hear more

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Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, can you give us just a little

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Speaker 1: bit of an introduction, um to who you are and

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Speaker 1: what is you're doing? Sure, so again, I'm Marcus Lashly.

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Speaker 1: I'm a country boy from Alabama and uh had to

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Speaker 1: have had an intense curiosity my entire life, and that's

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Speaker 1: led me to down this path. Grew up hunting and

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Speaker 1: fishing and basically have followed that path all the way

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Speaker 1: into a career now in academia, and I work here

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Speaker 1: at Mississippi State University in the ms U Deer Lab

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Speaker 1: and study primarily habitat relationships with a lot of different

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Speaker 1: species and and one of the ones I'm most interested

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Speaker 1: in of course, as dear, definitely, Now, you had quite

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Speaker 1: a path to get to this point. I think you

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Speaker 1: were NC State for a while, and can you walk

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Speaker 1: us through like what you're what that journey looked like,

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Speaker 1: and all the different things you kind of worked on

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Speaker 1: up to this point. So I got a bachelor's degree

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Speaker 1: actually here at Mississippi State, and most people don't get

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Speaker 1: a degree at the same place they end up um

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Speaker 1: for a you know, in an academic job so that's

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Speaker 1: a little bit unusual. But I did get my bachelor's

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Speaker 1: degree here in forestry with the option of wildlife management,

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Speaker 1: and I fell in love with with habitat at that

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Speaker 1: point and working on habitat, and I went and worked

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Speaker 1: with Craig Harper at the University of Tennessee and he

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Speaker 1: trained me during my master's again habitat related work with

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Speaker 1: civil culture, so basically different force management practices within without fire,

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Speaker 1: how they affected deer forge availability and quality and those

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Speaker 1: sorts of things. And then I worked in a couple

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Speaker 1: of different jobs with some different agencies, worked in West

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Speaker 1: Mississippi all the way up to the outer banks of

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Speaker 1: North Carolina and even down in Florida as a biologist,

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Speaker 1: And then went back to get my pH d at

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Speaker 1: NC State where I worked again on fire and force

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Speaker 1: management how related to deer habitat quality and predator prey

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Speaker 1: interactions between deer and coyotes. So, and I also got

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Speaker 1: a post doc there at NC State working in that

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Speaker 1: same long leaf pine ecosystem with with deer and coyotes

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Speaker 1: in fire. It sounds like you've been pretty busy. Have

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Speaker 1: you still got some honey, tim In? Oh? Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I find plenty of time, you know, at Fort Bragg

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Speaker 1: when I was doing my research there, I didn't get

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Speaker 1: the hunt very much for deer. But I'm also an

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Speaker 1: avid turkey hunter, and uh, it turns out the schedule

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Speaker 1: of trying to catch deer all night and then going

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Speaker 1: turkey hunting all morning and then sleeping you know, from

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Speaker 1: from noon to about six or seven in the evening

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Speaker 1: and doing it all over again with a pretty good

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Speaker 1: schedule for me. So I got plenty of hunting in.

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Speaker 1: You know, you have to find time to do it.

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Speaker 1: So whatever that schedule is, you you work around it.

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Speaker 1: I feel like Dan had a similar schedule, being up

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Speaker 1: all night and sleep until six next day, but it

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Speaker 1: wasn't for turkey hunting, it was it was something else.

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Speaker 1: In college. Well yeah, yeah, college, yeah, college story. I

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Speaker 1: thought you were talking recently. Well now, I guess as kids, right. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, when I when I was growing up, I

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Speaker 1: worked on a catfish farm as a night man, and

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Speaker 1: uh got to work all night, you know, during my

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Speaker 1: teenage year. So I was already used to that kind

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Speaker 1: of schedule for for work purposes, but also have had

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Speaker 1: some leisure activities that drive me in that way as well.

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Speaker 1: So of all these different I mean, you listed off

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Speaker 1: a handful of different topics and studies that you've been

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Speaker 1: involved in that I'm sure I've all been really interesting

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Speaker 1: to you. But of everything you've worked on, what single

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Speaker 1: project or you know, particular topic have you like really

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Speaker 1: clicked with the most, like which specific aspect just like

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Speaker 1: fascinated you above all else? Well, uh, from a science

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Speaker 1: geeky standpoint, we would call it indirect effects. So basically,

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Speaker 1: if you think about the systems, they're all food we ups,

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Speaker 1: and that way up has a whole bunch of different

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Speaker 1: lines connecting lots of species together. And it's really intriguing

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Speaker 1: to me that you know, things like fire could change plants,

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Speaker 1: which change the way that dear behave, which is also

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Speaker 1: affecting how predators behave, and they you know, the predator

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Speaker 1: changes the way that the prey behave, and you know,

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Speaker 1: you you start trying to figure out who's affecting who

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Speaker 1: when you get in this web and realize that they're

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Speaker 1: all connected, and you know there are all these caveats

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Speaker 1: in the system, and that really has become the heart

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Speaker 1: of what I love. Ecology is really cool, and you know,

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Speaker 1: you don't understand until you really get into the weeds

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Speaker 1: that that all these things are connected, and it becomes

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Speaker 1: really interesting, especially when you start thinking about it from

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Speaker 1: a hunting perspective, because as a hunter, you're the predator

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Speaker 1: and you're affecting how the deer is acting in the

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Speaker 1: environment and how they affect plants, and you know it,

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Speaker 1: just those things get me really excited, and that has

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Speaker 1: really become a thrust of of my research program now,

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Speaker 1: is to really understand how things are affecting one another

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Speaker 1: and how we can use that information to manage them better.

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Speaker 1: I can, I can certainly see how that'd be interesting.

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Speaker 1: Can you give us a specific example of this, Like

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Speaker 1: you kind of mentioned some of the connection points, but

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Speaker 1: I'd be really interested. You know what, like X variable,

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Speaker 1: if you change that, how does that then trickle down

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Speaker 1: through the chain? Sure? So h for just as an example, Um,

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Speaker 1: I've studied fire and I'm a pyromaniac, so I'm mentioned

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Speaker 1: fire all the time. I'm always always go back to

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Speaker 1: fire because I really like fire, and most people don't

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Speaker 1: realize how important fire has been in the the ecology

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Speaker 1: of the systems, especially in the Eastern and Southeastern United States.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's been a critical part of the way

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Speaker 1: that these systems work. So just as an example, uh,

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Speaker 1: the timing of fire is pretty cool, and we haven't

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Speaker 1: we've sort of overlooked that. It seems like a lot

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Speaker 1: of people have measured different response variables. And depending on

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Speaker 1: what you measure, you know, sort of okay, growing season

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Speaker 1: for is best, or dormant season's best, you know, late

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Speaker 1: late season. You know, different times are better for different

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Speaker 1: things depending on what you're looking at. But when when

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Speaker 1: you start thinking about deer and when lactation really peaks,

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Speaker 1: you know, the demands of a deer really peak best

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Speaker 1: in the middle of the summer. And one of the

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Speaker 1: research projects that have been involved with and we're attempting

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Speaker 1: to publish the data currently, show that the phonology of fires,

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Speaker 1: in other words, which month fire is set in changes

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Speaker 1: the way that it makes the nutrients available to deer.

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Speaker 1: And if you actually mimic lightning, when lightning would set

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Speaker 1: things on fire, the nutrient paul send the vegetation coincides

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Speaker 1: with antler growth or or lactation, which are the two

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Speaker 1: you know, depending on whether you're male or not or female,

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Speaker 1: those are the most nutritionally demanding. So the timing is

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Speaker 1: critical to make those nutrients available. But to take that

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Speaker 1: a step further, if you start thinking about the predator

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Speaker 1: in the system, which is coyote in this case, so

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Speaker 1: that coyote is also trying to eat so. Uh. One

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Speaker 1: thing I thought was particularly interesting is is mice and

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Speaker 1: rabbits and things like that that coyotes eat are also

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Speaker 1: more abundant after you burn. So coyotes sometimes in some

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Speaker 1: cases will actually seek out fire, so they're not doing

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Speaker 1: it necessarily to get deer or that they obviously eat deer,

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Speaker 1: But because they seek out fire, then deer sometimes will

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Speaker 1: avoid fire. So it looks like they're avoiding this nutrient

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Speaker 1: pulse when they're actually avoiding a predator that's not even

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Speaker 1: trying to eat them, you know. So you start getting

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Speaker 1: into this really crazy food web, and animals are doing

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Speaker 1: things that you don't think they should. But when you

428
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,160
Speaker 1: start taking a larger look at the system, it makes sense. Uh.

429
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 1: So that's just one really convoluted example. I guess I

430
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 1: love it. I love it. How long How long after

431
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: a fire takes place do you do we start to

432
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 1: see the results of that change, Like the the nutrients

433
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 1: are you talking about? Well, the nutrients or the animal behavior. Okay, well,

434
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 1: uh so just to give you another example on it

435
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: on a different species. We we burned in May this

436
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: past May, and we have cameras that were monitoring the

437
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:51,400
Speaker 1: use by lots of species, and northern bob white and

438
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 1: turkeys were in the burned area seeking out the things

439
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,679
Speaker 1: that were made available by fire. Less than twelve hours

440
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: after the fire is put out, they can respond pretty

441
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 1: quickly and they and they know what's going on. It's

442
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 1: like they're sitting up in a firetower watching for smoke

443
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 1: and they're going to you know, they know what's going on.

444
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,120
Speaker 1: So it's pretty amazing that deer is a little bit

445
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 1: delayed because there you know, when when foods are being

446
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,880
Speaker 1: made available to a deer, it's through vegetation, so they're

447
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: eating leaves and it has a little bit of lag

448
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 1: time before those plants start to respond again. But I

449
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,640
Speaker 1: would say within two or three weeks that they are

450
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,360
Speaker 1: really heavily using those nutrients that are being made available

451
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 1: by the fire. Now, I know that fire is something

452
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 1: that's very well understood within the community of pretty serious

453
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 1: habitat managers um, but for people that are you know,

454
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,400
Speaker 1: just getting started, maybe they've gotten to the point where,

455
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: like I want to try food plot that kind of thing,

456
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 1: but they haven't gotten to the point of doing some

457
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: of this, um it's more natural forage type of work.

458
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: Can you just explain why or how it is that

459
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,160
Speaker 1: fire makes a difference in this way, like why it's

460
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: the actual mechanism that's that's producing all this great forage. So, uh, so,

461
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: the fire is doing several things. One one thing that

462
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: it does is it warms up the seed that so

463
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 1: the soil, so it removes bo mass that's above ground

464
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: obviously when it's burning it, and it exposes mineral soil

465
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: and also warms it up and releases nutrients back into it.

466
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,880
Speaker 1: And the combination of those things make some plants grow

467
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: really well. So annual forbes, which we typically think of

468
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: as the high quality deer forages, those they're actually adapted

469
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: to respond to that that situation that's created by fire,

470
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: So you end up with with a lot of forbs

471
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: that respond to it. And that's one part of it.

472
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: But we also have another mechanism, which is something I've

473
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 1: been studying quite a bit, and that's plants that are

474
00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: that are perennial, so they last year after year it

475
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:05,120
Speaker 1: free as a perennial plant. For instance, those have especially

476
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: hardwoods have adapted to deal with fire by re sprouting

477
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 1: from their stomps after their top kieled. So that's really interesting.

478
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 1: I think we're probably going to get into it anyway,

479
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 1: that fire is essentially causing the mineral stomps, which some

480
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: of the listeners may have seen videos that we have

481
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 1: online about that, and that that plant tissue is really

482
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 1: high quality because it's trying to get back into the

483
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 1: canopy position where it can get sunlight. And while it's

484
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: doing that, it's making a really abundant amount of nu

485
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:49,400
Speaker 1: trans available to your deer. So with with fire, how

486
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 1: what what I guess Number one, is there somewhere we

487
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: can go or resource if we're going to try utilizing

488
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 1: fire in our management plan, what would you recommend as

489
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 1: far as plowing that off in a safe manner, in

490
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 1: the right manner to improve dear habitat or wildlife habitat. Sure, Well,

491
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: you know I preach about fire, and one of the

492
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: reasons is it's becoming harder and harder to use because

493
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: you know, we have to deal with where smoke goes,

494
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: and and there's there's a perceived liability associated with fire

495
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: if it gets on your neighbor's property or you know,

496
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: something like that. And we actually in every state agency

497
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 1: they have a program that is actually like Mississippi for instance,

498
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 1: as the the Prescribed Fire Program that trains people to

499
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: be a Mississippi Prescribed Burn Manager and that that's providing

500
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: you training to get that UM to get that title

501
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: so that you can then pull a burn permit yourself,

502
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: and you would actually go through the Forestry Commission and

503
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 1: get a permit. You have to write a management plan

504
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: for that fire that you you send to them, and

505
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: then you have to follow that that uh, that plan

506
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: with your permit, and as long as you do that,

507
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 1: it provides you protection from from the liability. So it's

508
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 1: designed to protect the landowner to encourage burning because we

509
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: know now that it's so important. So that's one way

510
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: that you can get the training to to get you

511
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: started on how to use it. Another thing that you

512
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: can do is contracted out, so there there are contractors

513
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: that specialize in burning and you can hire them to

514
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: do that. Uh. They're also in some state agencies there

515
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: they have a private lands program and they will have

516
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: wildlife biologists who will work with private landowners and can

517
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: work with you on getting that plan set up and

518
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: even in some cases pull the permit for you and

519
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: and help you burn it. And like our our state

520
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: has an active program where we do that. Uh. Most

521
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: states also have an extension program through the university, the

522
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: land grant institutions, and they have specialists on staff that

523
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: are also there to helpline donors with this type of thing.

524
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: So there are lots of different options, although fire is

525
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 1: one of the more difficult things to use, just because

526
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: there's that perceived liability there. Yeah, yeah, definitely a lot

527
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: of a lot of planning. Yeah, it seems like there's

528
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: there's a little more to it. But to your point,

529
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: into your noted obsession with it, it is such an

530
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: important it's such an important piece of what's happening out there.

531
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: And correct me if I'm wrong, But you know, over

532
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: the last hundred years or so, we have largely limited

533
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: the benefits of fire because we perceived it as a

534
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 1: threat and we try to control fire completely for a

535
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: long period of time, which has resulted in a lot

536
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: of you know, unnatural um habitat stuff where we're not

537
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: getting things set back, where we're getting tremendous amounts of

538
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 1: just mature growth and we're lacking the understory or we're

539
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: fuel loading big force out west, and then that's resulting

540
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: in these massive wildfires because we're not letting the smaller,

541
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: usual natural fires happened. I mean, is that that? Yeah,

542
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: you're right on point that. You know, in the early

543
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, there were there were bands of people who

544
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: were going around telling people fire was bad and we

545
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: were trying to get it, get rid of it. And

546
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: then it wasn't until we started seeing some effects of

547
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: that we realized that was a bad idea. And you know,

548
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: we've had some like like, for instance, Smokey the Bear

549
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: for a long time that was you may have noticed

550
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: when when you were younger, the message was only you

551
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: can prevent fire, and now it's only you can prevent wildfire.

552
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: So they've changed uh their message a little bit to

553
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: avoid that negative connotation associated with fire, because we like fire.

554
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: Fire is a good thing, but you know when an

555
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: arson arsonists satisfire, then it's destructive. So you know, they're

556
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: trying to make that distinction there. We actually need fire

557
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: and need to use it to make some of these

558
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 1: systems function correctly. And uh, you know, people don't realize that,

559
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: and a lot of people grew up thinking fire was

560
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,719
Speaker 1: bad and now you know, we're trying to change that message. Well,

561
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: it seems like your crusades is working. More and more

562
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: people seem to be seem to be making it part

563
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: of their management program. At least it seems like over

564
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: the years I've been you know, monitoring this field and

565
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: learning it myself, there's been a consistent, consistent trend of

566
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: people talking about that, and it's one of those things

567
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: that is a little intimidating if you don't have experience

568
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: with it, but the benefits of yeah, when you know,

569
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 1: when you don't have fire in the system, the way

570
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 1: that nutrient cycle through the system is a little bit different.

571
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 1: And just just to make this relevant to the average

572
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: person who wants their does to be able to wan

573
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: their phones or their bucks to grow maximum antler growth,

574
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: the time when those things are are most demanding is

575
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: actually a time when vegetation starting to decline in nutrient quality,

576
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: and the fire, especially when it's time to properly, extends

577
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: that nutrient pulse and actually increases it dramatically during the

578
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: times that they need those nutrients. So the deer essentially

579
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: have adapted, especially in the southeast, to take advantage of

580
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: that that resource pulse created by fire. So you know,

581
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: without fire in the system, you end up with his

582
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: gap and it's called the late summer stress period, and

583
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: you end up with a gap in that quality. And

584
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: that's a problem when the deer trying to express their

585
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: their antler quality or wan a phone. So we're talking

586
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: late summer and like you said, those are are trying

587
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: to lactate, trying to feed those fonts and bucks are

588
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 1: you know, finishing up their antler growth. And that's the

589
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: time obviously a lot of nutritional need. But you're you're

590
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: saying that the native vegetation at that time, a lot

591
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: of that stuff is losing some of its nutritional punch.

592
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: Is that it starts declining. Uh, you know, we don't

593
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: realize it because it looks like it's green still outside,

594
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 1: But the quality of the leaves on the vegetation outside

595
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: right now is much lower than it was in late May.

596
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: For instance, the same leaf is much lower quality. And

597
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 1: fire provided you know, it's set back that succession, so

598
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: the leaves are still young at this time, and that's

599
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 1: where you get that now a lot of landowners aren't

600
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 1: in a situation where burning is a possibility, or you

601
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: may be a hunter that's leasing land and fire is

602
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: not a possibility, And that's where you can start to

603
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 1: get into things like a supplemental food butt program or

604
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 1: the mineral stump uh application, those could become really important

605
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: because of this natural cycle of vegetation when fire isn't

606
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: in the system. Yeah, let's talk about those two pieces

607
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: right there. And that mineral stump um idea is one

608
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 1: that's been particularly interesting. I heard you talk about this

609
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: on the Deer University podcast a few weeks or a

610
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: month ago or something. Could you explain what that is,

611
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: why that's something we we might want to consider using

612
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: his hunters and managers. Absolutely so, Uh, that same cycle

613
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:17,720
Speaker 1: that I was talking about with fire, you can actually

614
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 1: cause that to happen with a chainsaw or or a

615
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 1: hatchet or you know something to cut down a tree. Uh.

616
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: Basically you take a mid story hardwood, so it could

617
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 1: be black gum or red and maple or you know,

618
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 1: an oak, whatever you want to cut down. I normally

619
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 1: target species that don't have much timber value, and you

620
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 1: basically cut that that tree down and it's remember I

621
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: was talking about it earlier. They're adapted to respond to

622
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,919
Speaker 1: that by re sprouting and growing rapidly to get back

623
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 1: into the position they were, so that the plant is

624
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 1: mobilizing nutrients from its roots up into the leaves to

625
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 1: grow very quickly. And when it when it's trying to

626
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 1: regulate that balance, sometimes you can see a five and

627
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 1: some nutrients. I've even seen an eightfold increase from the

628
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: leaf quality before and after you cut it down, So

629
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 1: we're talking about a substantial change in the quality, and

630
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: that's a plant physiological response. Especially in fire adapted systems

631
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 1: like the Southeast, those things respond really aggressively to it.

632
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 1: So you've you've made the vegetation really high quality and

633
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 1: us all in the reach of deer. So you're literally

634
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: just taking a chainsaw and cutting a tree down and

635
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 1: you're timing it so that it produces those stump sprouts

636
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: when deer needed the most, which would be primarily in

637
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,479
Speaker 1: July for most of your listeners. And that's a good

638
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 1: substitute for fire. You. Yeah, so deer or designed to

639
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: extract nutrients from leaves, and if you're going to provide nutrients,

640
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: that is the best way to do it is through vegetation,

641
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 1: which you know your food plots are vegetation as well,

642
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 1: So that's those are good ways to deliver it in

643
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 1: the way that it's the deer is designed to extract it.

644
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: So to what what level or what scale? I guess

645
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: what I'm asking my scale? What kind of scale do

646
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 1: you need to make a some kind of noticeable impact

647
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: in a localized area with this type of method. Um,

648
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 1: you know you can burn an acre, maybe you burn

649
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,879
Speaker 1: tent acres and you get a certain amount of food

650
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 1: out of that. How many trees do you need to

651
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: cut in this fashion to get a similar impact with

652
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: the mineral stone? So so that's something that I've been

653
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 1: working on. I'm trying to figure out at what scale

654
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 1: could you start benefiting a population And the answers you

655
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: probably have to do it at a larger scale than

656
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 1: you would want to to really impact the nutrition, but

657
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 1: it still can be a supplement just like your food plot.

658
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,919
Speaker 1: And based on our preliminary data where we're estimating how

659
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: many trees would we have to cut down? So if

660
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 1: you took a tree, just a maybe a five or

661
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: six inch diameter tree, so we're talking about most people

662
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: could reach around the tree with both hands. Uh. So

663
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: a tree that size, if you cut down about a

664
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: hundred of them, it would equal the new trient production

665
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 1: of a common warm season food plot. M. But it's

666
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: not really that many it uh just to put that

667
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: into perspective, My my graduate student that's been working with

668
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 1: me on this Dawn Chance and I went out, um

669
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,439
Speaker 1: maybe last week or two weeks ago and cut down

670
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 1: some trees around a stand that we wanted to make

671
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:45,280
Speaker 1: a really high quality boastand and I think it took

672
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 1: us fifteen minutes to cut down twelve trees around that

673
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 1: boastand or something like that. So not much time commitment

674
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: for the amount of forage you're getting. And you know,

675
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 1: you can use it in a lot of different ways.

676
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 1: One one thing, as you're cutting down those trees and

677
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 1: making lanes to shoot your bow if you're a bow hunter, uh,

678
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: you're also making it the bow the area much more

679
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 1: attractive because that vegetation continues to be produced all the

680
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: way into bow season. And on top of that, we

681
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,359
Speaker 1: took all of the the trees that we cut down

682
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 1: and would drag them and sort of make a land

683
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: to to make the deer walk through and the way

684
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 1: that we wanted to wanted them to. So you know,

685
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: it has a lot of different purposes and it's a

686
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: really easy way to enhance nutrition, deliver nutrients and the

687
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 1: way that they are designed to eat it during that

688
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: important time, but also has some carryover effects to improve

689
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 1: your bow stamp. Now here's a question what if the

690
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 1: what if you're doing this in an area with a

691
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 1: thick canopy above it and so that stump isn't going

692
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,399
Speaker 1: to get a lot of sunlight, is it still going

693
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: to have those quick shoots full of nutrition? Still? Oh? Yeah.

694
00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: We the initial experiment that we did with the red naples,

695
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: so that that was the video that you were referencing earlier. Uh,

696
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 1: those were primarily and clothes cannopy forest. Okay, so there

697
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 1: was not much like getting to those. Now when it

698
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: when it does have some sun like getting to the ground,

699
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 1: you're you're getting two things. One, you'll get some some

700
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: more plants that are that needs sun like you know

701
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 1: forbes to respond to that. But also the stump does

702
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 1: seem to do better when it has some sunlight to respond.

703
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 1: Now another thing you mentioned and you you kind of

704
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 1: touched on this a little bit, but when I've heard

705
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,800
Speaker 1: you speak about this previously. Um, you talked about, for example,

706
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 1: the maple tree, and you talked about how that's not

707
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: necessarily something that deer would select for in a lot

708
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 1: of situations, doesn't have a huge nutritional punch. But then

709
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,959
Speaker 1: after you cut it off because of that tree, trying

710
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 1: to balance out from the from the roots up to

711
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: what's above ground. You you you talked about specifics in

712
00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 1: regards to protein and other nutrients in those new, newly

713
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 1: sprouted leaves. Can you give us the details on that?

714
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: I mean, how substantial the difference are we getting after

715
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:08,399
Speaker 1: we're cutting these trees in the new sprouts. I mean,

716
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:12,399
Speaker 1: this is like super concentrated punches nutrition in these new leaves, right,

717
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 1: m so red maple uh just as an example, is

718
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 1: is generally in the low teams at the peak quality,

719
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: which would be you know, late April or May, and

720
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: then by the time deer would need it for growing

721
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: antlers or or what have you, uh is declined down

722
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: to normally around ten. So that's not very good. UH

723
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: normally for pea collactation or antler growth. We're thinking about

724
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 1: more like a sixtent crew protein for uh. So the

725
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: only thing by that time without fire in the system.

726
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 1: We're doing what we're talking about with the mineral stumps

727
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: the only things in the landscape really that consistently meet

728
00:41:55,719 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: that requirement or forbes, So you know a lot of

729
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,760
Speaker 1: our brows would already have declined in quality by that time.

730
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 1: So when you cut down this lessly red maple that

731
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 1: was ten crew protein before you cut it, and then

732
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 1: you have that re sprouting vegetation for a two or

733
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 1: three months period after that. We had some that got

734
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: up to even thirty, but on average they're up around

735
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: So we've exceeded now what what the requirement is of

736
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 1: the deer, and it's on par with the average ford

737
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,359
Speaker 1: that they're like to eat on the landscape. So we've

738
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 1: taken a plant that's not very high quality and changed it,

739
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 1: transformed it into something that's extremely high quality. And if

740
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,360
Speaker 1: you look at the nutrients like phosphorus was the example

741
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 1: of was giving in the videos because it's so important

742
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 1: for antler growth and lactation. That one was actually a

743
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 1: fivefold increase roughly in in the plants. So, uh, most

744
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 1: of the time it's it's at least three threefold, and

745
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 1: some times it's up to eight fold. But on average

746
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 1: is somewhere around fivefold increase. And that's what we've got

747
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: me really excited about it because it was actually double

748
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 1: the average for on the landscape to include things you

749
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 1: would plant in your food plots. So that was that's

750
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 1: a substantial change in the quality of a you know,

751
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 1: a red maple that that's not high quality on the landscape.

752
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:27,240
Speaker 1: Typically we've transformed into something that is the highest quality

753
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 1: thing around on the landscape. Yeah. So that the other

754
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 1: thing you you mentioned was about the the diet preference

755
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: for dear. That's one thing has also been amazing to me.

756
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 1: We we typically think of these different plants species as

757
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 1: being sort of a stagnant you know, deer either like

758
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: it or they don't like it, or they you know,

759
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: they they weed it, but but they're not seeking for it.

760
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 1: You know. We think of those things as being stagnant,

761
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:58,320
Speaker 1: like green brower is always great, uh, sweet gums always terrible.

762
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 1: You know. We we sort of label these different species.

763
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: But what I've learned from this experiment some of the

764
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 1: other ones, is this that is as far from the

765
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 1: truth as it could be. The the diet selection of

766
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: the deer for plant species is completely dependent on how

767
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 1: you change the nutrients within that plant, and which the

768
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 1: nutrients are limiting on the landscape. You know, all these

769
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 1: different things are influencing it. The deer are smart, you know,

770
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:30,720
Speaker 1: they're they're adjusting their diet to take advantage of wherever

771
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 1: they need. So if you change the content of nutrients

772
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 1: and the leaves of a plant, you're going to change

773
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:42,359
Speaker 1: the preference of that plant for deer. So I think

774
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,319
Speaker 1: you might have mentioned it, but I want to make

775
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 1: sure that I am interpreting this correctly. How long does

776
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 1: the benefit last? So you cut down this tree, how

777
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 1: long are we going to get this um you know,

778
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:58,760
Speaker 1: disproportionately high nutritional value from those shoots. So the primary

779
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 1: response where you have that sort of that peak in

780
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 1: quality generally last for about six weeks and then it

781
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: starts declining. But the ones that we cut in June

782
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:16,280
Speaker 1: last year, we're still substantially higher quality than the leaves

783
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 1: on the same species that we're not cut down in

784
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: late September, so we're talking about several months out. We

785
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 1: still had a noticeable nutritional gain from from doing that.

786
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 1: And then how high up are we should be cutting

787
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 1: these trees down? I mean, as we cut them right

788
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: towards the ground. Is it three ft high and is

789
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 1: it a straight cut across or you know, what's the

790
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: specifics of executing this well, Uh, I don't know what

791
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 1: in terms of making it sprout best, if there's a

792
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:55,479
Speaker 1: good technique. The generally the more of the tree you leave,

793
00:45:55,680 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: the more sights it has to generate those those uh

794
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 1: stump sprouts. But the taller you leave at the quicker

795
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 1: it is out of the reach of deer. So we

796
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 1: have been cutting them down to about ankle high and

797
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 1: that's been working really well. And you've got to think again,

798
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: these the reason these trees are responding like that is

799
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 1: because they're adapted to deal with fire, which would be

800
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,439
Speaker 1: killing it all the way at the ground level. So

801
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 1: you know, they can handle it as as close as

802
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 1: you can get to the ground. Uh. You know, if

803
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 1: we do it about ankle high, we don't have any

804
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: trouble with hitting hitting the ground with our chainsaw, enduing

805
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 1: the blade or something like that. So you know, that's

806
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 1: that's what we've been sticking with and we're getting a

807
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 1: really great response with a lot of different species. Now

808
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 1: when you when you kind of going back to fire,

809
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,760
Speaker 1: you know, we we often think you burn a crp

810
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 1: field or a grass field for for fire. Are there

811
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 1: ever any instances where you would burn let's say a

812
00:46:54,800 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 1: timber or a grove of trees? Absolutely? Yeah. That most

813
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:05,479
Speaker 1: of my research is that's actually enforested systems. And most

814
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: people want realize that a pine tree that the reason

815
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 1: it has that thick, corky bark on it is to

816
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 1: protect it from fire. So you know that historically all

817
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 1: of like the long leaf pine ecosystem is an imperiled

818
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 1: ecosystem and the you know, in the southern coastal plain

819
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: and without fire, it goes it changes into a different community,

820
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: like the longly pine goes away. So it's sexually perpetuated

821
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: by fire love loly pine. Same thing they are adapted

822
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 1: to fire. Uh. Even more interesting to me is a

823
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 1: lot of basically all of our upland oak forests are

824
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,919
Speaker 1: also adapted to fire. So you know, you can burn

825
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:53,360
Speaker 1: and up when oak stands and not harm those oaks.

826
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 1: They're actually adapted to deal with it. So you know,

827
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 1: you have to take into account your firing techniques and

828
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:01,959
Speaker 1: you know you don't want to run a crown fire

829
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: through them obviously, but uh, you know, low intensity fires

830
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 1: they are adapted to deal with it, and it's absolutely

831
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 1: beneficial to wildlife, especially some of them that you want

832
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 1: to hunt. So it sounds to me like fire before

833
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: humans even you know, started working the land or anything

834
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 1: like that, has been a part of the evolutionary system

835
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: of trees, plants, animals, everything. Yep, yep. That's that's one

836
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 1: of the reasons that I've been so interested in it,

837
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 1: because it doesn't matter where you look in the southern

838
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 1: ecosystems outside of you know, floodplains or you know, places

839
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: that obviously wouldn't burn because of water. Uh, when you

840
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 1: get outside of those, it's amazing the list of adaptations

841
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 1: that almost every species you look at have to deal

842
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 1: with it. It really is amazing. And that that's why

843
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: I focus on it so much, because I just you know,

844
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,400
Speaker 1: it's a huge part of every system almost and even

845
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,720
Speaker 1: even streams, and you know, some of our aquatic ecosystems

846
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 1: are actually you know, have links to the uplands around

847
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 1: it that burned, and you know, a lot of the

848
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 1: nutrient dynamics and how they move through the systems from

849
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 1: from the terrestrial to the aquatic or even influenced by fire.

850
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 1: So yeah, it really really has been eye opening for

851
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: me over the past ten or fifteen years learning how

852
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 1: integral this process was to all these systems. It is fascinating.

853
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,360
Speaker 1: And then it's interesting how you can then apply that

854
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: understanding to helping you understand why a mineral stump or

855
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 1: why I cut down tree reacts the way it does

856
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:51,399
Speaker 1: because it's it's basically simulating its response to fire, which

857
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:55,439
Speaker 1: is which is pretty interesting. I want to make sure

858
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: I emphasize one of the things you mentioned. It makes

859
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 1: sense that you utilize in the mineral stump or the

860
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 1: or the fire idea to just improve the natural forage

861
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 1: available for a nutritional standpoint. That makes a lot of sense.

862
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,359
Speaker 1: But I think another fascinating opportunity in the very short

863
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 1: term for people listening still right now, is how you

864
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 1: can use these as a targeted hunting tool. Um. You know,

865
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 1: we talk a lot on the podcast about ways to

866
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 1: try to sweeten the pot at each individual tree stand.

867
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:24,760
Speaker 1: So you know, for example, I've got a tree stand,

868
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 1: I've I've put a mock scrape in front of it,

869
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 1: I've got a little water hole in front of it. Maybe,

870
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,400
Speaker 1: like you mentioned, we've got a few down trees that

871
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:33,839
Speaker 1: help manipulate a little bit of deer movement. Well, it's

872
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,319
Speaker 1: not like this is another way to almost introduce like

873
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:40,280
Speaker 1: a micro food plot type effect, but instead of planting something,

874
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 1: you cut a cluster of trees in within shooting range

875
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 1: of your tree stand, and you time it so that

876
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:50,720
Speaker 1: when you're in there hunting, there's now these fresh shout

877
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 1: or shoots of new growth out of those stumps that

878
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 1: are super nutritious and they're gonna be attracting deer um.

879
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 1: It was exactly right. Uh, I'll use In fact, I

880
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 1: talked about it on the Deer lab or Deer University podcast. Uh.

881
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,760
Speaker 1: You know when I first started thinking about the mineral

882
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 1: stump I did, I was sitting on a tree stand

883
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 1: where I had cut down some trees around it and

884
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 1: was wondering why they were you know, there were deer

885
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: in there annihilating these plants that I don't think of

886
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:26,240
Speaker 1: as high quality plants. And you know, I've been using

887
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 1: that for years and finally have done a research project

888
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: on it to try to figure out why the why

889
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 1: the deer were doing that. But you're exactly right. It

890
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:41,400
Speaker 1: absolutely can enhance the available nutrition around your stand, and

891
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 1: you can target that to improve your hunting experience around

892
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 1: those stands. Yeah, I mean what an easy quick thing

893
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 1: like everyone could go do like this week is like

894
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 1: gribate chainsaw cut down like five four to six inch

895
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 1: diamuter trees within range of your tree to a couple

896
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 1: of your eastends, and right there you've got a little

897
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 1: special food source that these deer are gonna be hitting

898
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 1: in October or November or whatever it might be. And

899
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 1: do you said July is is like ideal time frame?

900
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 1: But can we even go into August? Yeah, the the

901
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 1: ideal time frame for the deer to take advantage of it,

902
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 1: to wean a fawn or grow antler would be in

903
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 1: June for most people, depending it depends on when you know,

904
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:26,760
Speaker 1: it's a little bit different depending on when the phones

905
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,399
Speaker 1: are being born and that sort of thing. But uh, yeah,

906
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:33,320
Speaker 1: you basically a month before whenever the peak and antler

907
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 1: growth or the peak and lactation occur would be ideal

908
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:39,359
Speaker 1: for them to get the most out of it from

909
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:42,759
Speaker 1: a nutritional perspective. But we've cut them down all the

910
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 1: way into early September and still have the trees respond.

911
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 1: They did not respond as vigorously at that point, but uh,

912
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 1: any time leading up to both season is a good

913
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 1: time to do that because you do get some some

914
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 1: flush and vegetation from that stomp, and it is attractive

915
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 1: to the deer, especially when there's not much else to eat,

916
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 1: you know, around the stands. That's great. That's a really

917
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: cool idea simple way that you can, like, anyone can

918
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 1: go and utilize this on their property. Um and how

919
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 1: many how many times have you gotten in a tree

920
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 1: standing there like, man, there's there's something blocking my shot

921
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 1: right there. You know, it would be really nice if

922
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 1: I could shoot thirty yards in this direction. You know,

923
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 1: you could use that as an opportunity to clean out

924
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 1: a couple of good lanes and also put a really

925
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:34,560
Speaker 1: nice little food source in that lane. I think it's

926
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:37,439
Speaker 1: terrific idea. Uh, I might need to do a little

927
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 1: cutting myself here in the next few days. I would

928
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:44,359
Speaker 1: encourage you to do so. Yeah. So before we move on,

929
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,240
Speaker 1: we need to pause briefly for word from our partners

930
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:49,840
Speaker 1: at White Tail Properties. And today we've got a great

931
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:52,359
Speaker 1: segment on a topic really related to what we've been

932
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 1: talking about here with Marcus Spencer. New Earth will take

933
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,879
Speaker 1: it from here this week with white Tail Properties, we're

934
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 1: joined by Tom James, a lance by Swiss out of

935
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 1: Central Indiana, and Tom is going to be telling us

936
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,400
Speaker 1: about what the very first habitat improvements should be for

937
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:11,359
Speaker 1: a land manager. Good question. Um. Some of the first

938
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 1: key things the fundamentals if you want to think about,

939
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 1: is when you think in terms of what a deer requires,

940
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:21,320
Speaker 1: the food, security, covering, water and the q d m

941
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 1: A has a great analogy of the thinking about the

942
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,760
Speaker 1: lowest hole on the bucket that you need to plug

943
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 1: up to keep the water from leaking out. So what

944
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 1: could be missing on your property that the surrounding land

945
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 1: may have, and so you want to do a quick assessment.

946
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:39,279
Speaker 1: Maybe it's food, Maybe it's water. Maybe if you can

947
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:41,840
Speaker 1: maybe it's cover. If you can look through your woods

948
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:43,960
Speaker 1: and see two hundred yards, then you've got an issue

949
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 1: with with too much shade, not enough sunlight creating new

950
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 1: potential brows and cover for your deer. So maybe it's

951
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 1: a timber, a timber either stand improvement or a harvest

952
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:57,839
Speaker 1: or a combination of two that's gonna allow some more

953
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 1: new growth to come in and picking up your property.

954
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 1: Maybe it's as simple as you're not leaving an area

955
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 1: alone as a sanctuary. If you're trapesing all over forty

956
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 1: acres and pushing deer off every time you go, then

957
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 1: that's that's obviously an issue. So maybe just an adjustment

958
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 1: in the way that you move around and hunt the

959
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:18,720
Speaker 1: property and approach things. Uh. If food is your lacking

960
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 1: ingredient or your lowest hole in the bucket, then even

961
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 1: in timber, it takes some work, but you can certainly

962
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 1: clear out some openings and plant food. Um and I

963
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:32,320
Speaker 1: would suggest considering both perennial food and annual food stuff

964
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 1: that you can leave in like clover and chicory as

965
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 1: a perennial coming back every year and do some fall

966
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 1: planted cereal grains and brassicas for the fall time, so

967
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 1: you've got a year round program going on. And typically

968
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 1: it's not an issue in the Midwest. But if if

969
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:48,240
Speaker 1: water is a lacking ingredient, then maybe you can create

970
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:50,840
Speaker 1: a water hole or even some of the new systems

971
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 1: like the banks water watering tanks that you can set

972
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 1: up that are mobile and fill up and provide water

973
00:55:56,719 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 1: sources for your deer so that they don't have to

974
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:01,799
Speaker 1: leave the property to water. Again, that's fairly rare, but

975
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 1: that could be a consideration. If you'd like to learn

976
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 1: more and to see the properties that Tom currently has

977
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:13,320
Speaker 1: listed for sale, visit whitetail properties dot com. Backslash James,

978
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 1: that's j A. M. E. S. So, so we you

979
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:21,880
Speaker 1: mentioned the two tools here, UM mineral stump as of

980
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 1: or mineral or fire is something we can fill in

981
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 1: this gap of nutrition in late summer. But then he

982
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 1: also mentioned supplemental food plots. Um. People talk about food

983
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 1: plots all the time. I mean there's lots of quote

984
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:36,640
Speaker 1: unquote food plot experts UM who talk about, you know,

985
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 1: how to plan them to improve your hunting, and what

986
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:42,320
Speaker 1: shape and what size and such and such as best

987
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 1: What do you think that hunters are missing when it

988
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 1: comes to food plots or or the experts when they're

989
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 1: telling us about what we should be doing from a

990
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:53,360
Speaker 1: food plot perspective? Who's where are we? Where's the gap?

991
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:56,040
Speaker 1: What are we not hearing that we need to better understand?

992
00:56:56,080 --> 00:57:00,160
Speaker 1: That's not being you know, shared in the popular media. Well,

993
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:04,399
Speaker 1: I think that the majority of the messages that are

994
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:09,400
Speaker 1: readily available to the average person are about enhancing the

995
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:14,560
Speaker 1: hunting experience directly by you know, making deer easier to

996
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 1: see and that's great. I think it's a fantastic tool.

997
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: You know, it's great to get children involved in hunting,

998
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 1: fantastic opportunity if you're a bird watcher, even plant things

999
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 1: to watch birds. You know, they can be used for

1000
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 1: a lot of good reasons and and that's a great message.

1001
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:37,480
Speaker 1: What you probably miss is we keep saying supplemental food

1002
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 1: plot for a reason. They are a great tool to

1003
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 1: supplement the diet of deer. And you're picking. You can

1004
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 1: pick fourages specifically to fill in gaps. So we normally

1005
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:55,520
Speaker 1: have two gaps, two major gaps, and the nutrition of

1006
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 1: deer in there, you know their habitat that that would

1007
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 1: be the late summer stress period that I was talking about.

1008
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:06,640
Speaker 1: That occurs because you have this natural decline in native

1009
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:09,840
Speaker 1: forages and you haven't you don't have mass starting to

1010
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 1: fall yet, so you have this gap and available nutrition,

1011
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 1: and on the front end of that gap, they have

1012
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 1: a really intense need for nutrients. So that's one gap

1013
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 1: you can you can use supplemental food plots to help

1014
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 1: with the other gap, and it's more important in the

1015
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 1: northern part of the deer range than the southern. The

1016
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 1: other gap is in the late winter so you know,

1017
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 1: the bucks are past the rut the winter, especially in

1018
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 1: the north, that's pretty intense, and they don't have much

1019
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,480
Speaker 1: to eat on the landscape. So when I'm thinking about

1020
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 1: food pots, I'm talking I'm thinking about enhancing the nutrition,

1021
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:50,920
Speaker 1: especially in those two gaps when they need it. Okay,

1022
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:53,840
Speaker 1: So that that's the message. I think it's lost more

1023
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 1: than any of them. Okay. So what you know at

1024
00:58:56,880 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 1: a high level utilizing supplemental food plots, how would you

1025
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 1: you know what type of food plot program or specific

1026
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:06,960
Speaker 1: forage or anything that would you recommend as far as

1027
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:11,720
Speaker 1: trying to fill those gaps. So that's a great question.

1028
00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 1: The the thing that is most commonly overlooked as the

1029
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 1: importance of summer nutrition and and how intense, especially in

1030
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 1: the South, that gap and native vegetation is all of

1031
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:30,240
Speaker 1: our well pretty much all of the things you could

1032
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:33,880
Speaker 1: plant in a warm season plot fill that gap really well.

1033
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:38,200
Speaker 1: So you can extend that available nutrition through the summer,

1034
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 1: especially if you're you know, a landowner or a a

1035
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:44,880
Speaker 1: leaser that can't use fire or some of these other

1036
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:47,680
Speaker 1: techniques we've been talking about. You know, that food plot

1037
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 1: maybe your only chance to provide nutrition during that time.

1038
00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 1: So almost all of the warm season plants that that

1039
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:59,520
Speaker 1: you would you would consider, do that pretty well. But

1040
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 1: most people do not engage in summer food plots. No,

1041
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,000
Speaker 1: speaking of summer food plots, this is something I always

1042
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:09,720
Speaker 1: wondered about myself. What if we're up here in the

1043
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:13,200
Speaker 1: corn belt the Midwest, and you've got hundreds and hundreds

1044
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 1: of acres of being fields all around your property, So

1045
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 1: as I would as I would assume there's tremendous summer

1046
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 1: nutrition all around me with all these being being fields everywhere,

1047
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:25,920
Speaker 1: do I need to be worried about increasing summer nutrition

1048
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:28,200
Speaker 1: when you're in an area like that, with the agg

1049
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 1: community providing so much of that essentially a massive warm

1050
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:36,520
Speaker 1: season food plot. I think in that situation, if you

1051
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:39,960
Speaker 1: already have soy beans planet all around you, you probably

1052
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 1: should focus less on a summer food plot program and

1053
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:49,520
Speaker 1: more on enhancing some of the native vegetation. Especially in

1054
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:53,720
Speaker 1: in your situation. Cover is probably a more important factor

1055
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 1: in the summer, and you can implement some of these

1056
01:00:56,320 --> 01:01:00,440
Speaker 1: force management strategies to really enhance cover and help those ponds,

1057
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 1: you know, avoid predation and and uh, you know, help

1058
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 1: that buck hide from from predators. So I think, uh,

1059
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:11,919
Speaker 1: in some cases that may be more important. And that's

1060
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:14,640
Speaker 1: certainly one that that it may be. If you are

1061
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 1: going to plant food pots, who probably ought to plant

1062
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 1: something other than the the uh, the local agriculture. So

1063
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 1: if they're planning soybeans, you probably ought to try something

1064
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 1: different than soybeans, just uh. You know, all these plants

1065
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:32,640
Speaker 1: have different nutrients within them at different levels, So if

1066
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:37,160
Speaker 1: you use other types of plants in that scenario, you

1067
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:40,480
Speaker 1: may enhance the availability of of a nutrient that the

1068
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 1: soybeans aren't providing very well. Okay, that makes sense. And

1069
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 1: then to your earlier point, if if you've got it

1070
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:52,080
Speaker 1: covered in the summer because of the surrounding egg, there

1071
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:53,960
Speaker 1: might still be an opportunity to fill the gap in

1072
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 1: the late winter. So in my situation, all these harvested fields,

1073
01:01:57,240 --> 01:02:00,240
Speaker 1: especially these days, people are the farming quick. It's so

1074
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:02,040
Speaker 1: much more efficient. There's not a lot of waste screen

1075
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:04,680
Speaker 1: in these fields anymore. So that certainly seems like up

1076
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:06,920
Speaker 1: by me, there's a huge gap there in that late

1077
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:10,120
Speaker 1: winter time period. That and we have a more intense

1078
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:14,480
Speaker 1: winner there. So you're right that that's probably a more

1079
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 1: important stress period for you to to target to your point, though,

1080
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:21,720
Speaker 1: it's important to understand, right, it's different in every different location.

1081
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:24,400
Speaker 1: So trying to understand what it is for you down

1082
01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:27,880
Speaker 1: in Mississippi versus Michigan, or Iowa versus Georgia or New York.

1083
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:30,200
Speaker 1: And I think we're all we all have different challenges

1084
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:33,200
Speaker 1: that are our deer and our habitats are facing. So

1085
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:35,880
Speaker 1: it's kind of a matter of trying to understand what's

1086
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 1: happening here in this region. And I imagine, imagine a

1087
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 1: lot of state game departments have biologists, are different people

1088
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 1: who can help you better understand in your area. Yeah,

1089
01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 1: you absolutely do. Uh. You have a couple of different

1090
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:50,280
Speaker 1: resources that are great, and most of them have an

1091
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:54,920
Speaker 1: extension wild like uh professional hours is is a Bronson

1092
01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:56,840
Speaker 1: strict one who you had a few weeks ago on

1093
01:02:56,880 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 1: the program. So uh yeah, almost every state has one

1094
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:06,600
Speaker 1: of those, uh, through the university extension. Okay, that's great.

1095
01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 1: I want to I want to rewind us a little

1096
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:13,640
Speaker 1: bit to the native forage aspect of things, and UM,

1097
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:17,360
Speaker 1: right now, some parts of the country specifically kind of

1098
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 1: like where you are, Dan over there in Iowa, southern Iowa, UM,

1099
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 1: a lot of areas are experiencing some drought right now.

1100
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:25,480
Speaker 1: And I know you worked on a study related to

1101
01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:29,360
Speaker 1: the impact of drought on native forage and the nutrition

1102
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 1: it provides and then how deer react to that. Can

1103
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about what you found

1104
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:37,760
Speaker 1: from that study? Sure, yeah, I and so I was

1105
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 1: working during my masters with Craig Harper on that project

1106
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:46,400
Speaker 1: in Tennessee and and too. I think it was two

1107
01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 1: thousand and seven. Just so happened we had the worst

1108
01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:54,080
Speaker 1: drought and on record in the state. So I thought

1109
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:57,320
Speaker 1: that was a great opportunity to see if that impacted

1110
01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 1: dear nutrition and deer diet selection. So I took an

1111
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:07,040
Speaker 1: advantage of that situation. I collected plants during that drought

1112
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:09,840
Speaker 1: year and compared them two years that were normal and rainfall,

1113
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:15,360
Speaker 1: and it had a pretty big impact on on the

1114
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:20,439
Speaker 1: nutrients within the plant and dear behavior. So the main

1115
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 1: impact that it had on the forage was it decreased

1116
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:29,000
Speaker 1: the amount of crewe protein in the plant. And also

1117
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:34,480
Speaker 1: that the plant goes through accelerated maturation, So basically that

1118
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:37,160
Speaker 1: means that it tries to grow really fast and produce

1119
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:40,600
Speaker 1: seed before it dies, so it's really stressed and the

1120
01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:44,520
Speaker 1: plant starts speeding up all the processes. So that decline

1121
01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:48,240
Speaker 1: that we've been talking about, uh for the last a

1122
01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 1: few minutes, that that that happens quicker during a drought year.

1123
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:56,440
Speaker 1: The plants are are just accelerated, so that decline in

1124
01:04:56,600 --> 01:05:01,560
Speaker 1: nutritional quality of those plants as is happening way before

1125
01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:05,880
Speaker 1: the deer really needed. So with that being said, there

1126
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:09,200
Speaker 1: are some forages on the landscape that maintain a high

1127
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:12,440
Speaker 1: quality even during that drought. Their lower quality than they

1128
01:05:12,520 --> 01:05:15,920
Speaker 1: usually would be, but they're still relatively high quality in

1129
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:18,840
Speaker 1: terms of what the deer needs. So what what we

1130
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 1: saw in that experiment was that deer actually change their

1131
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:27,400
Speaker 1: diet selection to focus on only a few species that

1132
01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:32,680
Speaker 1: maintained that high quality. So, uh, really interesting that, you know,

1133
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:37,280
Speaker 1: just in that short time period, the deer apparently realized

1134
01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:40,680
Speaker 1: that it's a drought and everything's low quality, I need

1135
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:44,960
Speaker 1: to pick the few plants that are good. So that

1136
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 1: makes sense. Now bringing things full circle, what about if

1137
01:05:49,640 --> 01:05:52,480
Speaker 1: we're in that situation right now. Let's say what we're

1138
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:57,040
Speaker 1: experiencing some drought, it's midsummer, and we're we're thinking, okay,

1139
01:05:57,040 --> 01:05:59,840
Speaker 1: how can we help supplement the deer because maybe my

1140
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:02,040
Speaker 1: maybe I did plant food plots, but the drought has

1141
01:06:02,040 --> 01:06:05,080
Speaker 1: just knocked him out and not getting great production there. Um,

1142
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:07,280
Speaker 1: we know that the natural forage is being reduced in

1143
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:09,880
Speaker 1: quality because of the things you just mentioned. There is

1144
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:13,000
Speaker 1: this a situation where mineral stumps could be like our

1145
01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:18,520
Speaker 1: our emergency methodology for trying to boost that drought kind

1146
01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:22,880
Speaker 1: of help deal with them. I'm glad that you brought

1147
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:28,200
Speaker 1: that up, because yes, so the drought is doing several things.

1148
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:33,840
Speaker 1: One thing you have to think about from the from

1149
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:37,320
Speaker 1: nature's point of view, when is the fire best going

1150
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 1: to be lit by lightning during drought? So fire would

1151
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:46,240
Speaker 1: have been prevalent on the landscape naturally during that time,

1152
01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:49,920
Speaker 1: which would have been a natural supplement uh for deer,

1153
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:55,240
Speaker 1: But that's not the case in most instances. Now food

1154
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:58,280
Speaker 1: plots can become a problem because if it is a drought,

1155
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:03,240
Speaker 1: they may fail. So uh, the mineral stomps could be

1156
01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:08,160
Speaker 1: a really important They still respond really well. That tree

1157
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:12,040
Speaker 1: has so much invested in the roots system. You know,

1158
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:17,160
Speaker 1: it's so well developed that it can still respond really well,

1159
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:20,120
Speaker 1: and it should be able to do that because nature

1160
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:23,800
Speaker 1: would have burned it during drought more frequently. So you know,

1161
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:26,000
Speaker 1: it all makes sense when you start thinking about this

1162
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:31,520
Speaker 1: from an adaptation standpoint. So, yes, the mineral stomps could

1163
01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:35,080
Speaker 1: be very important during drought, and the plants are still

1164
01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:38,080
Speaker 1: adapted to deal with it because that's when they would

1165
01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:41,919
Speaker 1: have been burned naturally anyway. So Danna, are you gonna

1166
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:47,000
Speaker 1: get a chansaw here pretty soon? Probably? Not like I've

1167
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:51,160
Speaker 1: been selling a bunch of chainsaws for somebody. You really

1168
01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:55,480
Speaker 1: should be getting some kind of conversation that discount or

1169
01:07:55,520 --> 01:08:00,240
Speaker 1: sponsored by somebody. Yeah, it seems like maybe maybe you know,

1170
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:02,800
Speaker 1: they could fund some research to show how good chainsalls are.

1171
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:06,520
Speaker 1: So Dan, where are you at all this stuff on

1172
01:08:06,600 --> 01:08:08,320
Speaker 1: a habitat? I know you you don't get to do

1173
01:08:08,360 --> 01:08:11,040
Speaker 1: as much habitat work in the places you hunt, since

1174
01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:13,320
Speaker 1: you don't own land or have exclusive access to anything,

1175
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:15,480
Speaker 1: but anything on this habitat side of things that you

1176
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:18,840
Speaker 1: want to know more about. Yes, and this is kind

1177
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:21,840
Speaker 1: of you can answer it vaguely if you want. But

1178
01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:26,200
Speaker 1: you know, when we talk about habitat for whitetail, we

1179
01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:31,400
Speaker 1: everybody says food cover water, And I didn't know, do

1180
01:08:31,479 --> 01:08:37,000
Speaker 1: you have any research that shows that a deer will

1181
01:08:37,080 --> 01:08:42,200
Speaker 1: travel longer distances to a food to U Let's say

1182
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:45,439
Speaker 1: a food source, whether that is a field um to

1183
01:08:45,640 --> 01:08:49,679
Speaker 1: spend most of his day in the an optimal cover

1184
01:08:50,240 --> 01:08:54,920
Speaker 1: or do they sacrifice cover to be closer to optimal

1185
01:08:54,960 --> 01:09:00,559
Speaker 1: food and water. That that that's a really great question

1186
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:05,400
Speaker 1: and has been a source of tension among several deer researchers,

1187
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:11,760
Speaker 1: I think, because we don't always agree. But in my

1188
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:14,800
Speaker 1: from my perspective and the research that I've done, and

1189
01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:17,599
Speaker 1: I've followed a lot of deer around and watch this happen,

1190
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:19,720
Speaker 1: and I'm also an avid deer hunter and have have

1191
01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:23,680
Speaker 1: watched deer for a long time and actually designed my

1192
01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:30,120
Speaker 1: own hunting strategy around this idea. The cover is much

1193
01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:33,240
Speaker 1: more important to the deer, and you have to think

1194
01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:36,679
Speaker 1: of from a deer's perspective. Normally cover is actually something

1195
01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:42,480
Speaker 1: that's also edible, so it's plants. So in my experience,

1196
01:09:42,600 --> 01:09:46,479
Speaker 1: the deer ranks cover over other things. So if you

1197
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:49,760
Speaker 1: have poor cover and really great food, you're not going

1198
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:51,439
Speaker 1: to hold the deer like you would if you had

1199
01:09:51,479 --> 01:09:55,519
Speaker 1: really great cover and maybe poorer food. And let's just

1200
01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:58,879
Speaker 1: think about that from an adaptation standpoint for just a second.

1201
01:09:59,439 --> 01:10:02,439
Speaker 1: It's much more important for a deer to avoid being

1202
01:10:02,479 --> 01:10:05,599
Speaker 1: eaten than it is for it to get its next meal,

1203
01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:08,160
Speaker 1: which makes a lot of sense in terms of a

1204
01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:11,599
Speaker 1: fitness consequence to the deer. If it gets eaten one time,

1205
01:10:12,080 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 1: it doesn't produce any offspring, but it can miss some

1206
01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:20,240
Speaker 1: meals and it's gonna be science. Yeah, so we're really

1207
01:10:20,320 --> 01:10:23,240
Speaker 1: breaking this down to the nuts and bolts here. The

1208
01:10:23,280 --> 01:10:27,960
Speaker 1: deer has to survive first, and then if it survives

1209
01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:31,680
Speaker 1: and then has good nutrition, it can produce offspring. But

1210
01:10:31,840 --> 01:10:34,960
Speaker 1: the precursor to that is it must survive to do

1211
01:10:35,040 --> 01:10:39,760
Speaker 1: either of the other ones. So that's my perspective. One

1212
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:42,920
Speaker 1: of the deer will choose cover over food, so they're

1213
01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:46,040
Speaker 1: they're willing further to find it, right And do you

1214
01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:51,280
Speaker 1: feel that's the same way with water as well? Uh, well,

1215
01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:55,760
Speaker 1: that one's another interesting question. They do drink water, obviously,

1216
01:10:56,439 --> 01:10:59,360
Speaker 1: but they get a lot of their water in a

1217
01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:02,080
Speaker 1: way that's called it's called preformed water. So basically that

1218
01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:04,559
Speaker 1: means the water is bound up in something else. And

1219
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:07,720
Speaker 1: the plants that they're eating have a lot you know,

1220
01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:11,000
Speaker 1: some of them are nine water actually, so some of

1221
01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:12,880
Speaker 1: them are are really high water, and they get a

1222
01:11:12,880 --> 01:11:15,599
Speaker 1: lot of their water from the forages that they're eating.

1223
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:19,599
Speaker 1: So a lot of people don't realize that. Uh you know,

1224
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:21,720
Speaker 1: I don't know what percentage of the water, but a

1225
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:24,599
Speaker 1: large portion of it can be obtained from the plants

1226
01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:28,720
Speaker 1: that they're eating. In fact, you know, deer really uh

1227
01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:32,640
Speaker 1: attracted to salt during the summer. And if you I

1228
01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:34,919
Speaker 1: don't know if how much you'll know or your listeners

1229
01:11:34,960 --> 01:11:37,640
Speaker 1: know about salt and what function it serves in the

1230
01:11:37,680 --> 01:11:39,640
Speaker 1: body that has a lot of them, but one of

1231
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:42,479
Speaker 1: the things that does is helped regulate water. And if

1232
01:11:42,520 --> 01:11:46,679
Speaker 1: they get this really big flush and vegetation that they

1233
01:11:46,720 --> 01:11:49,360
Speaker 1: almost water down their blood by eating all of it,

1234
01:11:50,400 --> 01:11:53,639
Speaker 1: and the salt can be pretty important to help them

1235
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:57,400
Speaker 1: regulate that the balance of water in their blood. So

1236
01:11:57,600 --> 01:12:05,519
Speaker 1: pretty interesting, uh physiological tidbits huh, speaking of getting eaten,

1237
01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:10,439
Speaker 1: you mentioned you mentioned their second the importance of cover

1238
01:12:10,920 --> 01:12:14,160
Speaker 1: and the fact that NAT is very important. This is

1239
01:12:14,160 --> 01:12:19,640
Speaker 1: definitely something that UM is related to coyote populations expanding

1240
01:12:19,640 --> 01:12:22,280
Speaker 1: across the country, and I know you've done some work

1241
01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:25,800
Speaker 1: looking into this, the impact of coyotes some habitat considerations

1242
01:12:25,800 --> 01:12:28,280
Speaker 1: related to that. Can you expand on that a bit?

1243
01:12:28,320 --> 01:12:33,719
Speaker 1: Tell us what you found on that front. UM well,

1244
01:12:34,520 --> 01:12:39,519
Speaker 1: so the primary thing that we found and so I

1245
01:12:39,560 --> 01:12:41,680
Speaker 1: guess somebody back up for a minute. One thing that

1246
01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:44,719
Speaker 1: we did during that study with collared adult female deer

1247
01:12:45,200 --> 01:12:48,120
Speaker 1: and then followed them until they had phones, and then

1248
01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:52,160
Speaker 1: followed the phones. We also caught coyotes and collar does

1249
01:12:52,240 --> 01:12:55,080
Speaker 1: and followed the coyotes at the same time. So we're

1250
01:12:55,200 --> 01:12:58,520
Speaker 1: getting a pretty good look at how they're interacting and

1251
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:01,000
Speaker 1: and who's eating what, and you know that sort of thing,

1252
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:04,280
Speaker 1: how the how the coyotes are impacting them. And in

1253
01:13:04,360 --> 01:13:09,439
Speaker 1: our study, a large portion of the phones died. I

1254
01:13:09,479 --> 01:13:12,240
Speaker 1: think we had about fourteen percent survival, which is one

1255
01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:15,599
Speaker 1: of the lowest survivals on it that's ever been reported.

1256
01:13:15,640 --> 01:13:19,120
Speaker 1: Was on that study, and the line share of those

1257
01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:24,800
Speaker 1: were directly caused by coyotes. So at face value, it

1258
01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:28,280
Speaker 1: looked like coyotes are a big issue in that system.

1259
01:13:28,320 --> 01:13:32,480
Speaker 1: But we also were following the nutrition of those animals

1260
01:13:32,560 --> 01:13:35,640
Speaker 1: and and uh, you know what was going on in

1261
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:38,720
Speaker 1: the system at a broader scale. And one of the

1262
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:42,200
Speaker 1: things I thought was particularly interesting that we noticed we

1263
01:13:42,479 --> 01:13:45,960
Speaker 1: we would go to find some of these phones and

1264
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:48,840
Speaker 1: occasionally we would walk in on a phone and it

1265
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:51,719
Speaker 1: would bleat when it heard a step on a stick

1266
01:13:51,800 --> 01:13:56,599
Speaker 1: or something, and without fail, everyone that we ever heard

1267
01:13:56,600 --> 01:14:02,160
Speaker 1: bleat starved to death. So that was pretty interesting to me.

1268
01:14:02,200 --> 01:14:04,680
Speaker 1: And being a habitat guy was thinking, well, what is

1269
01:14:04,720 --> 01:14:06,800
Speaker 1: a what is a coyote gonna do when it hears

1270
01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:09,760
Speaker 1: a phone bleat? It's gonna go over there and eat it.

1271
01:14:10,920 --> 01:14:14,080
Speaker 1: So we actually may have seen coyotes eating a large

1272
01:14:14,080 --> 01:14:17,360
Speaker 1: portion of our phones because we have a habitat problem,

1273
01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:19,559
Speaker 1: and that makes it harder for them to hide and

1274
01:14:19,680 --> 01:14:22,519
Speaker 1: harder for mom to feed them. And then the phone

1275
01:14:22,560 --> 01:14:25,599
Speaker 1: is responding to not being fed well by bleeding, which

1276
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:29,800
Speaker 1: makes it easier to find. Again, the habitat becomes a yeah,

1277
01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:33,960
Speaker 1: it becomes a compounding effect, and then we're you know,

1278
01:14:34,040 --> 01:14:37,800
Speaker 1: we we were associating to blame with coyotes when in

1279
01:14:37,920 --> 01:14:42,280
Speaker 1: reality it actually was a habitat problem. And you know,

1280
01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:47,120
Speaker 1: they changed the habitat management program there and have have

1281
01:14:47,200 --> 01:14:50,320
Speaker 1: started to see a real nice response from what I

1282
01:14:50,320 --> 01:14:52,600
Speaker 1: can tell from the camera data that we're getting from it,

1283
01:14:53,200 --> 01:14:56,000
Speaker 1: it looks like, you know, they're getting a response from

1284
01:14:56,120 --> 01:14:58,800
Speaker 1: from improving the habitat. So you know, habitat is really

1285
01:14:58,800 --> 01:15:02,559
Speaker 1: important because it provid us all of the different things

1286
01:15:02,600 --> 01:15:06,040
Speaker 1: that there need. You know, if you trap coyotes, that's

1287
01:15:06,120 --> 01:15:09,320
Speaker 1: only providing one thing that they need, which is a

1288
01:15:09,760 --> 01:15:13,800
Speaker 1: you know, making it easier potentially to avoid coyotes. But

1289
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:17,680
Speaker 1: if you improve habitat, you improve their nutrition and the

1290
01:15:17,720 --> 01:15:21,880
Speaker 1: ability to hide from a predator. You know, it's just

1291
01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:26,280
Speaker 1: a compounding effect and it's normally easier. Another thing that

1292
01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:29,320
Speaker 1: was really interesting in that study, and and UH I

1293
01:15:29,320 --> 01:15:33,080
Speaker 1: worked with several other researchers chrisp Warming and Christophernum culture

1294
01:15:33,360 --> 01:15:38,080
Speaker 1: chip would on this. Uh one thing that we were

1295
01:15:38,160 --> 01:15:42,840
Speaker 1: shocked about when we started looking at the coyotes their

1296
01:15:42,880 --> 01:15:46,320
Speaker 1: movement behavior. They're all over the board. They're all individuals

1297
01:15:46,360 --> 01:15:50,360
Speaker 1: and they all do their own things. But we had

1298
01:15:50,479 --> 01:15:54,639
Speaker 1: coyotes and in different age classes and both sexes do this.

1299
01:15:55,200 --> 01:15:58,920
Speaker 1: We would call collar the coyote on the study area,

1300
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:03,000
Speaker 1: and then some of them moved hundreds of miles and

1301
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:05,759
Speaker 1: only a couple of months period from that study area.

1302
01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:10,160
Speaker 1: So in one in one case we actually it was

1303
01:16:10,200 --> 01:16:12,760
Speaker 1: so shocking. We actually tracked from point to point the

1304
01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:16,280
Speaker 1: entire path that the coyote. Coyote made it in about

1305
01:16:16,320 --> 01:16:20,480
Speaker 1: two month period and it was nine d something miles

1306
01:16:20,479 --> 01:16:23,880
Speaker 1: like that. That is unbelievad You know my point of

1307
01:16:23,880 --> 01:16:27,040
Speaker 1: bringing that up. One thing is shocking. The other thing

1308
01:16:27,240 --> 01:16:30,680
Speaker 1: is if you were going to implement a trapping program

1309
01:16:30,720 --> 01:16:36,400
Speaker 1: to try to improve phone UH survival, if you trap

1310
01:16:36,439 --> 01:16:39,360
Speaker 1: a coyote, first of all, yesterday, it could have been

1311
01:16:39,400 --> 01:16:44,240
Speaker 1: in the state over from you. Second of all, tomorrow

1312
01:16:44,360 --> 01:16:46,640
Speaker 1: you may have another coyote in its place from a

1313
01:16:46,680 --> 01:16:51,519
Speaker 1: state over to UH. You know, the trapping has to

1314
01:16:51,520 --> 01:16:54,400
Speaker 1: be at such a large scale and so intense and

1315
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:59,240
Speaker 1: timed right before the phones are being born, that you

1316
01:16:59,280 --> 01:17:02,400
Speaker 1: know it, it really becomes a situation where it's almost

1317
01:17:02,479 --> 01:17:06,640
Speaker 1: not reasonable to implement. It makes people feel good to

1318
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:10,760
Speaker 1: kill that one coyote, but in reality, that's all it did.

1319
01:17:10,920 --> 01:17:14,320
Speaker 1: Was it made a big difference to that one coyote obviously,

1320
01:17:14,840 --> 01:17:18,240
Speaker 1: but in terms of your phone, your phone recruitment, it

1321
01:17:18,280 --> 01:17:20,960
Speaker 1: probably didn't make any difference. Yeah, so it's okay. So

1322
01:17:21,000 --> 01:17:24,559
Speaker 1: if it sounds like really the best way to handle

1323
01:17:25,240 --> 01:17:29,479
Speaker 1: predation issue with coyotes is to just improve habitat, I've

1324
01:17:29,479 --> 01:17:31,160
Speaker 1: read a lot of stuff on this, but I'm curious,

1325
01:17:31,200 --> 01:17:33,920
Speaker 1: from what you've seen, what is the best way, what's

1326
01:17:33,960 --> 01:17:38,679
Speaker 1: the best habitat prescription to deal with predation to improve

1327
01:17:38,720 --> 01:17:42,920
Speaker 1: that phone recruitment. Well, uh, let's think about that and

1328
01:17:43,160 --> 01:17:46,320
Speaker 1: a couple of the tools that we've talked about. So

1329
01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:51,240
Speaker 1: food plots don't provide very good phone cover for the

1330
01:17:51,240 --> 01:17:56,960
Speaker 1: most part. Uh, when we're talking about phone cover, we're

1331
01:17:57,000 --> 01:17:59,800
Speaker 1: talking about things that are less than waste. We're talking

1332
01:17:59,800 --> 01:18:03,760
Speaker 1: about plants, primarily that are less than waist tall. So

1333
01:18:03,840 --> 01:18:08,040
Speaker 1: if you have a forest that's really thick and you

1334
01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:10,160
Speaker 1: don't want to walk through it, but you can kneel

1335
01:18:10,200 --> 01:18:13,519
Speaker 1: down and see really well through it. So that's pretty

1336
01:18:13,520 --> 01:18:15,439
Speaker 1: typical in the southeast with like a ten year old

1337
01:18:15,439 --> 01:18:20,920
Speaker 1: pine plantation. It looks like it's a huge block of cover,

1338
01:18:21,160 --> 01:18:23,479
Speaker 1: but actually it's really poor because if you get down

1339
01:18:23,520 --> 01:18:25,680
Speaker 1: to the level of a fawn and a coyote, you

1340
01:18:25,720 --> 01:18:32,280
Speaker 1: know it's it's uh, just not obstructed. So things the

1341
01:18:32,400 --> 01:18:35,400
Speaker 1: things that are most important to improve that habitat, or

1342
01:18:35,479 --> 01:18:39,719
Speaker 1: to increase sunlight to getting to the ground if it's limiting.

1343
01:18:39,960 --> 01:18:42,280
Speaker 1: So if you're in a field, it's not a limiting factor.

1344
01:18:42,360 --> 01:18:46,080
Speaker 1: If you're in a forest, it might be. So breaking

1345
01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:48,719
Speaker 1: up the canopy and allowing some sunlight to the ground

1346
01:18:48,800 --> 01:18:52,560
Speaker 1: is the most important thing. Light is the most important

1347
01:18:52,880 --> 01:18:56,040
Speaker 1: limit here of plant growth. So that's the first thing.

1348
01:18:56,479 --> 01:19:00,479
Speaker 1: The second thing fire or uh you know it, even

1349
01:19:00,560 --> 01:19:05,920
Speaker 1: the mineral stump idea hinge cutting, anything to get you know,

1350
01:19:06,240 --> 01:19:10,080
Speaker 1: more vegetation from waist high and down. You know, the

1351
01:19:10,360 --> 01:19:16,519
Speaker 1: more vegetation you can get at that level, the better. Okay,

1352
01:19:17,840 --> 01:19:20,599
Speaker 1: an old field you know, you know I talked about

1353
01:19:20,600 --> 01:19:23,280
Speaker 1: food plus an old field, so you know it just

1354
01:19:23,479 --> 01:19:25,720
Speaker 1: has a diversity of different plants species in it. And

1355
01:19:25,800 --> 01:19:30,120
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about said forming grasses. I'm talking about

1356
01:19:30,200 --> 01:19:32,360
Speaker 1: like some of the native plants that you would have

1357
01:19:32,720 --> 01:19:36,280
Speaker 1: in an old field. Those provide excellent cover for a phone.

1358
01:19:37,000 --> 01:19:41,439
Speaker 1: I read somewhere and I packed this could be the paper,

1359
01:19:41,680 --> 01:19:44,360
Speaker 1: the study you're working. I cannot remember who to attribute

1360
01:19:44,360 --> 01:19:47,320
Speaker 1: this to, UM, but I read somewhere that they also

1361
01:19:47,439 --> 01:19:51,880
Speaker 1: found that the increased amount of edge within a habitat

1362
01:19:52,120 --> 01:19:56,240
Speaker 1: is better for funding. UM. So lots of different changes

1363
01:19:56,240 --> 01:20:00,200
Speaker 1: in habitat. Is that something that you found too? UM? Yeah,

1364
01:20:00,240 --> 01:20:03,479
Speaker 1: that's ah. That was actually I believe will gouls Be

1365
01:20:03,640 --> 01:20:09,719
Speaker 1: from Auburn that lead that paper, and he took several

1366
01:20:09,960 --> 01:20:14,200
Speaker 1: different sites across the East and looked at what things

1367
01:20:14,240 --> 01:20:17,960
Speaker 1: were contributing to phone survival and that's the same thing

1368
01:20:18,040 --> 01:20:21,760
Speaker 1: that I've I've found that that edge is creating several things. One,

1369
01:20:21,800 --> 01:20:26,040
Speaker 1: it's diversity. Uh, you know, you have several different plant

1370
01:20:26,040 --> 01:20:29,960
Speaker 1: communities coming together at an edge, and that structural diversity

1371
01:20:30,080 --> 01:20:33,639
Speaker 1: makes camouflage really effective. So that will fawn has a

1372
01:20:33,640 --> 01:20:38,760
Speaker 1: spot pattern and counter shading because it camouflages it. So

1373
01:20:39,439 --> 01:20:42,760
Speaker 1: those edges coming together are important for that. And the

1374
01:20:42,840 --> 01:20:46,920
Speaker 1: more of that you have, the you know, you imagine

1375
01:20:47,120 --> 01:20:50,240
Speaker 1: that fawn. First of all, it's in really good area

1376
01:20:50,360 --> 01:20:53,000
Speaker 1: to use its camouflage, but then if you have a

1377
01:20:53,040 --> 01:20:56,160
Speaker 1: whole bunch of area for a coyote to search on

1378
01:20:56,240 --> 01:20:59,479
Speaker 1: top of that, both of those things would improve the

1379
01:20:59,520 --> 01:21:08,640
Speaker 1: survive of that. It's just amazing how fragile and resilient

1380
01:21:09,240 --> 01:21:13,360
Speaker 1: nature can be all at the same time. You know,

1381
01:21:13,520 --> 01:21:18,200
Speaker 1: everything is That's that's why I'm here. I just think

1382
01:21:18,240 --> 01:21:21,640
Speaker 1: it's fascinating that everything is so connected and you just

1383
01:21:22,040 --> 01:21:24,240
Speaker 1: you start moving things around in that food web a

1384
01:21:24,240 --> 01:21:27,080
Speaker 1: little bit, and you know, things start to not work

1385
01:21:27,080 --> 01:21:32,479
Speaker 1: correctly and then they become fragile. You're exactly right, yeah, alright, well,

1386
01:21:32,640 --> 01:21:35,280
Speaker 1: real quick, before we move on and with habitat still

1387
01:21:35,320 --> 01:21:37,880
Speaker 1: on our minds here, let's pause for a real quick

1388
01:21:37,920 --> 01:21:41,160
Speaker 1: second to talk about food again, as Spencer new Heart

1389
01:21:41,280 --> 01:21:43,320
Speaker 1: is bringing us a quick word from our partners at

1390
01:21:43,360 --> 01:21:46,559
Speaker 1: the white Tail Institute of North America. This week with

1391
01:21:46,680 --> 01:21:50,519
Speaker 1: white Tail Institute, we're talking to consultant John Cooner about

1392
01:21:50,520 --> 01:21:54,240
Speaker 1: their special blend of Imperial white Tail Fusion, which is

1393
01:21:54,240 --> 01:21:57,520
Speaker 1: super popular with dear and even more popular with hunters

1394
01:21:57,560 --> 01:22:02,200
Speaker 1: based on the product's outstanding reviews. Fusing is sort of

1395
01:22:02,200 --> 01:22:05,920
Speaker 1: an unusual product for us because it's in part one

1396
01:22:05,960 --> 01:22:09,160
Speaker 1: of our oldest products that we have kept updating and

1397
01:22:09,240 --> 01:22:12,120
Speaker 1: in part because we have ended up changing it so

1398
01:22:12,280 --> 01:22:15,120
Speaker 1: much that we ended up changing the name by continuing

1399
01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:18,120
Speaker 1: to improve it. The main parts are still the same

1400
01:22:18,160 --> 01:22:23,040
Speaker 1: as Imperial white Tail. Clover is the main forage component UH.

1401
01:22:23,120 --> 01:22:27,360
Speaker 1: Doctor Dr Hannah, our Plant Genetics has finished breeding our

1402
01:22:27,400 --> 01:22:30,600
Speaker 1: newest clover variety of a couple of years ago, and

1403
01:22:30,680 --> 01:22:33,880
Speaker 1: so that has been added added to uh to Fusion

1404
01:22:33,880 --> 01:22:37,320
Speaker 1: in place of the clover we've had before that. Also,

1405
01:22:37,400 --> 01:22:39,880
Speaker 1: we've increased the amount of the chickery that we put

1406
01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:42,280
Speaker 1: in there. UH. The protein level is a little bit

1407
01:22:42,360 --> 01:22:45,680
Speaker 1: higher uh than it was. It gives up to the

1408
01:22:45,680 --> 01:22:48,760
Speaker 1: product we had before was called chickery plus. And with

1409
01:22:48,880 --> 01:22:52,280
Speaker 1: all those changes, and the fact that that we found

1410
01:22:52,400 --> 01:22:56,439
Speaker 1: chickery plus fusing because it led folks to believe it

1411
01:22:56,520 --> 01:22:59,000
Speaker 1: was more chickery than clover, we said we might as

1412
01:22:59,040 --> 01:23:01,840
Speaker 1: well go ahead it it's time to change the name

1413
01:23:01,880 --> 01:23:06,400
Speaker 1: now because we've made those other uh continuing improvements to it. Impure.

1414
01:23:06,439 --> 01:23:08,840
Speaker 1: White tail clover is number one food plot planning in

1415
01:23:08,880 --> 01:23:11,880
Speaker 1: the world. It's made for a good boisture holding bottomland

1416
01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:14,920
Speaker 1: soil UH and it's just it. It is our number

1417
01:23:14,920 --> 01:23:18,679
Speaker 1: one flagship products. Into that there has been a small amount,

1418
01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:21,759
Speaker 1: say ten percent, maybe a little more of the chickery

1419
01:23:22,120 --> 01:23:26,759
Speaker 1: UH infusion, and that brings the total protein UH provided

1420
01:23:26,800 --> 01:23:31,280
Speaker 1: up to about If you'd like more info on White

1421
01:23:31,280 --> 01:23:36,080
Speaker 1: Tail Institute's forage products, check out white Tail Institute dot com,

1422
01:23:36,120 --> 01:23:39,200
Speaker 1: where they also carry some of the top supplements, attractants,

1423
01:23:39,280 --> 01:23:44,599
Speaker 1: and herbicides available. Okay, So, continuing on the topic of

1424
01:23:44,680 --> 01:23:50,600
Speaker 1: how certain factors influenced deer let's shift from habitat to

1425
01:23:50,840 --> 01:23:54,840
Speaker 1: the favorite conspiracy theory of the deer hunting world, which

1426
01:23:54,920 --> 01:23:59,960
Speaker 1: is the moon. And it's so much, so many question,

1427
01:24:00,160 --> 01:24:02,559
Speaker 1: just so much debate about the moon. I know you've

1428
01:24:02,560 --> 01:24:04,880
Speaker 1: done some work on that. Could you could you give

1429
01:24:04,960 --> 01:24:08,360
Speaker 1: us the end of the details of how you did

1430
01:24:08,400 --> 01:24:12,680
Speaker 1: that study and then what you filmed. Yeah, so you

1431
01:24:12,720 --> 01:24:16,800
Speaker 1: remember the study in North Carolina. We we collared those

1432
01:24:16,840 --> 01:24:19,680
Speaker 1: females there and the video that you saw from the

1433
01:24:19,760 --> 01:24:23,680
Speaker 1: q d m A was actually right after presented that

1434
01:24:23,760 --> 01:24:28,120
Speaker 1: at the Southeast Dear study group that was based on

1435
01:24:28,120 --> 01:24:31,400
Speaker 1: only that that group of does which you know I had.

1436
01:24:31,479 --> 01:24:33,519
Speaker 1: I don't remember how many were collared at that point,

1437
01:24:33,600 --> 01:24:38,200
Speaker 1: but you know, uh, quite a few deer. And on

1438
01:24:38,439 --> 01:24:43,240
Speaker 1: that site there was a clear response of deer, especially

1439
01:24:43,680 --> 01:24:45,679
Speaker 1: on some moon phases. I believe it was the late

1440
01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:50,840
Speaker 1: the the late quarter, why I forgetting the name of

1441
01:24:51,120 --> 01:24:53,960
Speaker 1: the late happening third quarter or whatever. So there was

1442
01:24:54,000 --> 01:24:58,080
Speaker 1: a big peak, especially near dusk during that moon phase.

1443
01:24:58,720 --> 01:25:00,719
Speaker 1: And when I added more d or two it after

1444
01:25:00,760 --> 01:25:04,559
Speaker 1: the fact from that site, same thing. Most of the

1445
01:25:04,600 --> 01:25:08,240
Speaker 1: movements that were influenced by the moon we're actually at night,

1446
01:25:08,400 --> 01:25:11,479
Speaker 1: so you know they wouldn't impact your hunting, but some

1447
01:25:11,640 --> 01:25:14,840
Speaker 1: of the response was during hunting hours, so that was

1448
01:25:14,880 --> 01:25:21,360
Speaker 1: pretty exciting and actually contacted a number of of deer

1449
01:25:21,400 --> 01:25:24,680
Speaker 1: researchers from across the Eastern Seaboard. I wanted to expand

1450
01:25:24,720 --> 01:25:27,720
Speaker 1: that and and look at this at a at a

1451
01:25:27,960 --> 01:25:31,320
Speaker 1: higher level. And I got a couple of data sets

1452
01:25:31,360 --> 01:25:34,960
Speaker 1: from Steve ditch Cough at Auburn, a couple of data

1453
01:25:35,000 --> 01:25:37,679
Speaker 1: sets from Lisa Mueller and Craig Harper at the University

1454
01:25:37,680 --> 01:25:42,920
Speaker 1: of Tennessee, and UH a couple of other data sets

1455
01:25:42,920 --> 01:25:46,679
Speaker 1: all the way up to Maryland, UM with with the

1456
01:25:46,720 --> 01:25:50,120
Speaker 1: Mark Connor up there. So Sarah, you know, I think

1457
01:25:50,120 --> 01:25:54,879
Speaker 1: there were maybe six data sets total from bucksandos across

1458
01:25:54,920 --> 01:25:59,280
Speaker 1: several states, and I wanted to look at what, you know,

1459
01:25:59,400 --> 01:26:02,720
Speaker 1: are they bonding similarly to the moon phase across all

1460
01:26:02,760 --> 01:26:08,240
Speaker 1: these sites and across sexes? And what I found was

1461
01:26:08,280 --> 01:26:11,479
Speaker 1: pretty interesting. Some of the sites there was no effect

1462
01:26:11,479 --> 01:26:15,040
Speaker 1: of the moon or not one that we detected. Some

1463
01:26:15,240 --> 01:26:19,639
Speaker 1: sites females or males responded and the other one didn't.

1464
01:26:20,479 --> 01:26:27,120
Speaker 1: Some sites both sexes responded in a strong way, but

1465
01:26:27,360 --> 01:26:30,599
Speaker 1: in the sites that they both responded in a strong way,

1466
01:26:30,880 --> 01:26:36,760
Speaker 1: they weren't similar across sites. So then I was, you know, basically,

1467
01:26:36,800 --> 01:26:39,040
Speaker 1: when you get to a point like this in a

1468
01:26:39,080 --> 01:26:43,240
Speaker 1: research project and you don't have anything clear to talk about,

1469
01:26:44,640 --> 01:26:47,559
Speaker 1: you know, so it's like it it becomes pretty hard

1470
01:26:47,600 --> 01:26:50,240
Speaker 1: to publish something like that because you know, we we

1471
01:26:50,280 --> 01:26:54,559
Speaker 1: can see varying effects. Uh, and sometimes it works and

1472
01:26:54,600 --> 01:26:57,320
Speaker 1: sometimes it doesn't. But when it does work, it doesn't

1473
01:26:57,320 --> 01:27:02,760
Speaker 1: work the same in different places. So yeah, well it

1474
01:27:02,880 --> 01:27:06,320
Speaker 1: wasn't inconclusive once I started digging on it. Uh. What

1475
01:27:06,479 --> 01:27:12,200
Speaker 1: I basically came to the conclusion about was the responsive

1476
01:27:12,200 --> 01:27:15,040
Speaker 1: dear to the moon were largely dictated by what type

1477
01:27:15,040 --> 01:27:18,719
Speaker 1: of predator they had in the system and how intense

1478
01:27:18,800 --> 01:27:22,240
Speaker 1: hunting pressure was and that sort of thing. And we

1479
01:27:22,240 --> 01:27:25,880
Speaker 1: were seeing some responses on some sites when they had

1480
01:27:25,920 --> 01:27:28,800
Speaker 1: as coyote as the main predator. That was different than

1481
01:27:28,840 --> 01:27:33,599
Speaker 1: when humans were the primary predator or when bobcats were

1482
01:27:33,640 --> 01:27:37,879
Speaker 1: the primary predator. It was changing based on that that predator,

1483
01:27:38,160 --> 01:27:40,080
Speaker 1: and that makes a lot of sense when you start

1484
01:27:40,120 --> 01:27:43,920
Speaker 1: thinking about the hunting strategy of that predator and how

1485
01:27:43,960 --> 01:27:52,160
Speaker 1: it might be best to evade being eaten by. So yeah, So, uh,

1486
01:27:52,240 --> 01:27:55,760
Speaker 1: for instance, coyotes or what's called a coursing predator, so

1487
01:27:55,800 --> 01:27:59,519
Speaker 1: that basically the same as wolves. They basically are are

1488
01:27:59,520 --> 01:28:03,519
Speaker 1: trotting around the landscape visually hunting, and of course they

1489
01:28:03,560 --> 01:28:06,080
Speaker 1: have a good nose, but a lot of you know,

1490
01:28:06,120 --> 01:28:10,240
Speaker 1: they're seeing prey. So a good way to avoid being

1491
01:28:10,280 --> 01:28:12,840
Speaker 1: eaten by that type of predator is to avoid being seen.

1492
01:28:13,720 --> 01:28:17,120
Speaker 1: So you might avoid times that it's really easy to see,

1493
01:28:17,880 --> 01:28:20,360
Speaker 1: so that you may avoid moving a lot during the

1494
01:28:20,479 --> 01:28:24,400
Speaker 1: night when it's a full moon, for instance, if you

1495
01:28:24,479 --> 01:28:29,240
Speaker 1: are avoiding predation from a sitting weight predator, which would

1496
01:28:29,280 --> 01:28:32,280
Speaker 1: be like your bobcat or a lot of human hunters,

1497
01:28:32,960 --> 01:28:37,400
Speaker 1: it's good to avoid places that's easy for that predator

1498
01:28:37,479 --> 01:28:39,400
Speaker 1: to hide from you so that it can ambush you.

1499
01:28:40,360 --> 01:28:43,200
Speaker 1: So a lot of what I was seeing seemed to

1500
01:28:43,240 --> 01:28:46,320
Speaker 1: be and and again I haven't published this data, but

1501
01:28:47,160 --> 01:28:50,400
Speaker 1: uh that that's what it seemed to be going on,

1502
01:28:50,640 --> 01:28:54,400
Speaker 1: is when when you had certain types of predators, they

1503
01:28:54,400 --> 01:28:58,720
Speaker 1: would drive a little bit of different response and you know, uh,

1504
01:28:59,040 --> 01:29:03,120
Speaker 1: they're adapting to you know, to not be an eaten.

1505
01:29:04,000 --> 01:29:06,160
Speaker 1: You know, they're trying to not be eating. So they're

1506
01:29:06,280 --> 01:29:09,320
Speaker 1: they're changing their strategy based on that, and I think

1507
01:29:09,360 --> 01:29:11,519
Speaker 1: that's why they're This is sort of like that I

1508
01:29:11,600 --> 01:29:14,320
Speaker 1: forgot how you put it. I thought it was nicely

1509
01:29:14,320 --> 01:29:16,120
Speaker 1: put the way you did, But it's one of those

1510
01:29:16,120 --> 01:29:18,640
Speaker 1: things that goes around and everybody argues over all the

1511
01:29:18,680 --> 01:29:22,519
Speaker 1: hunters are always arguing some think that the moon's affecting movement,

1512
01:29:22,520 --> 01:29:25,639
Speaker 1: others don't. Well, they're probably there's a lot of truth

1513
01:29:25,680 --> 01:29:28,320
Speaker 1: behind any of those arguments, depending on where you are

1514
01:29:28,439 --> 01:29:32,439
Speaker 1: and you know, how you're what you're hunting strategy is,

1515
01:29:32,600 --> 01:29:34,840
Speaker 1: and what kind of predator densities you have, and what

1516
01:29:34,920 --> 01:29:38,080
Speaker 1: those predators are, and how good the habitat is, you know,

1517
01:29:38,200 --> 01:29:42,480
Speaker 1: just on and on. You probably are having different responses

1518
01:29:42,520 --> 01:29:45,479
Speaker 1: from deer based on all those things. And that's why

1519
01:29:45,479 --> 01:29:49,719
Speaker 1: it's so hard to detangle because they're they're so adaptive there.

1520
01:29:49,880 --> 01:29:54,240
Speaker 1: They are just doing what suits them. Another just a

1521
01:29:54,280 --> 01:29:58,160
Speaker 1: little tidbit. Another really interesting thing that I found, uh

1522
01:29:58,200 --> 01:30:01,360
Speaker 1: in that study, and I didn't have enough data really

1523
01:30:01,400 --> 01:30:06,439
Speaker 1: to explore it further, but I did find some literature that,

1524
01:30:06,760 --> 01:30:10,320
Speaker 1: like even in humans, but the best literature is in mice.

1525
01:30:11,200 --> 01:30:15,200
Speaker 1: Some of your your bodily functions are influenced by the moon.

1526
01:30:16,160 --> 01:30:19,960
Speaker 1: So you'll have things that you know, like melitonin will

1527
01:30:20,280 --> 01:30:23,000
Speaker 1: will spike in certain moon phases at certain times. And

1528
01:30:23,880 --> 01:30:25,839
Speaker 1: one of the things that I thought was pretty interesting

1529
01:30:25,920 --> 01:30:30,240
Speaker 1: is one of those hormone spikes at the same time

1530
01:30:30,280 --> 01:30:33,479
Speaker 1: as as some of the deer would be moving in

1531
01:30:33,640 --> 01:30:38,960
Speaker 1: mice during that moon phase and those things. The one

1532
01:30:39,000 --> 01:30:41,200
Speaker 1: that I really keyed in on was one that makes

1533
01:30:41,240 --> 01:30:45,080
Speaker 1: you hungry, so in mice that it's linked to how

1534
01:30:45,160 --> 01:30:48,360
Speaker 1: much how actively they're trying to eat. So it started

1535
01:30:48,400 --> 01:30:51,960
Speaker 1: making a lot of sense that actually something related to

1536
01:30:52,000 --> 01:30:55,920
Speaker 1: the way the moon influences us through you know, gravity

1537
01:30:55,920 --> 01:31:00,880
Speaker 1: and and uh light actually could influence how hungry we are.

1538
01:31:01,360 --> 01:31:04,759
Speaker 1: Which you know, that's that's starting to get really crazy,

1539
01:31:04,800 --> 01:31:07,880
Speaker 1: and you know that the work that it would take

1540
01:31:07,960 --> 01:31:10,840
Speaker 1: to to show something like that would be pretty incredible,

1541
01:31:10,920 --> 01:31:15,160
Speaker 1: But uh, that's same. That's find some pretty interesting linkages.

1542
01:31:15,680 --> 01:31:18,200
Speaker 1: And again there there's literature even showing that the moon

1543
01:31:18,360 --> 01:31:22,880
Speaker 1: is affecting human behavior. So it's perfectly reasonable to think

1544
01:31:22,960 --> 01:31:25,519
Speaker 1: that some of those biological things could be going on

1545
01:31:25,600 --> 01:31:28,760
Speaker 1: with here. Uh you know that we don't really understand

1546
01:31:30,160 --> 01:31:35,799
Speaker 1: h So so you did this study down the original study,

1547
01:31:35,840 --> 01:31:38,240
Speaker 1: and then you collected additional deaths that some were all

1548
01:31:38,280 --> 01:31:41,200
Speaker 1: across the country, and then from there it got a

1549
01:31:41,200 --> 01:31:44,639
Speaker 1: little more cloudy. Now that sitting where you are now

1550
01:31:44,680 --> 01:31:47,400
Speaker 1: today looking back and all of it, is there any

1551
01:31:49,360 --> 01:31:52,040
Speaker 1: is there any takeaway that you actually utilize yourself, Like

1552
01:31:52,080 --> 01:31:53,600
Speaker 1: if you looked at all that and you try to

1553
01:31:53,640 --> 01:31:56,200
Speaker 1: apply it to your own hunting situation. In regards to

1554
01:31:56,240 --> 01:31:58,600
Speaker 1: the moon, is there anything that you can say to

1555
01:31:58,600 --> 01:32:00,840
Speaker 1: yourself at least okay, well, at least send no X

1556
01:32:01,120 --> 01:32:04,759
Speaker 1: that I can use or find helpful. Yes, the best

1557
01:32:05,080 --> 01:32:08,640
Speaker 1: take home message that I could give people is to

1558
01:32:08,760 --> 01:32:13,720
Speaker 1: hunt when you can. Uh that the moon phase it

1559
01:32:13,800 --> 01:32:17,280
Speaker 1: probably does influence der behavior in some cases and maybe

1560
01:32:17,360 --> 01:32:19,720
Speaker 1: not in others. And who knows whether or not you're

1561
01:32:19,720 --> 01:32:22,160
Speaker 1: in one of those situations or whether or not it's

1562
01:32:22,240 --> 01:32:31,599
Speaker 1: changing over time. So while the moon could influence behavior, AH,

1563
01:32:31,400 --> 01:32:34,759
Speaker 1: is probably too complicated at this point for us to understand.

1564
01:32:34,880 --> 01:32:38,240
Speaker 1: So I would suggest hunting when you're able, if you

1565
01:32:38,320 --> 01:32:41,040
Speaker 1: have good conditions and you can get through your day

1566
01:32:41,040 --> 01:32:43,520
Speaker 1: off work or you know, you have that good Saturday

1567
01:32:43,520 --> 01:32:47,920
Speaker 1: lined up. Uh, you know, go honey, dear. You know

1568
01:32:48,760 --> 01:32:51,960
Speaker 1: one thing about And just to back up a little bit,

1569
01:32:52,000 --> 01:32:53,840
Speaker 1: when we look at the data and I'm talking about

1570
01:32:53,880 --> 01:32:58,400
Speaker 1: the moon influencing behavior, I'm just talking about increasing how

1571
01:32:58,479 --> 01:33:02,280
Speaker 1: much they're moving at different times. Yeah, it's not it's

1572
01:33:02,280 --> 01:33:05,120
Speaker 1: not like in some moon phases they're not moving at all.

1573
01:33:05,160 --> 01:33:09,120
Speaker 1: They're always moving, you know, they're always eating. So uh,

1574
01:33:10,040 --> 01:33:14,920
Speaker 1: the best way to take advantage of the moon is

1575
01:33:14,960 --> 01:33:16,840
Speaker 1: just not worry about it and hunt when you can,

1576
01:33:17,600 --> 01:33:20,320
Speaker 1: and sometimes you may line up with one as best.

1577
01:33:20,400 --> 01:33:23,280
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, things like the rut, they're not

1578
01:33:23,360 --> 01:33:26,160
Speaker 1: influenced by the moon phase. Uh. You know, we showed

1579
01:33:26,200 --> 01:33:28,720
Speaker 1: that over and over again. Things that you could key

1580
01:33:28,720 --> 01:33:31,280
Speaker 1: in on like that where we know bucks are on

1581
01:33:31,320 --> 01:33:34,280
Speaker 1: their feet and moving a lot more, those things aren't

1582
01:33:34,640 --> 01:33:40,200
Speaker 1: aren't affected by the moon. So unfortunately, I know that's

1583
01:33:40,200 --> 01:33:42,880
Speaker 1: not what people like to hear, but that's the best

1584
01:33:42,920 --> 01:33:45,920
Speaker 1: take on message at this point that I have from it.

1585
01:33:46,680 --> 01:33:50,920
Speaker 1: Fair enough. It's uh, endlessly interesting to try to piece

1586
01:33:50,960 --> 01:33:53,400
Speaker 1: that stuff out. But like you said, there's there's not

1587
01:33:53,479 --> 01:33:56,920
Speaker 1: a whole lot of really slid research they can point

1588
01:33:56,960 --> 01:34:00,080
Speaker 1: to there being any type of something anything we can

1589
01:34:00,160 --> 01:34:03,200
Speaker 1: really latch onto and say is is obvious correlation? I mean,

1590
01:34:03,240 --> 01:34:05,920
Speaker 1: there's you know, well, you know there there have been

1591
01:34:05,960 --> 01:34:11,439
Speaker 1: several data sets presented, uh in different outlets, and you know,

1592
01:34:11,520 --> 01:34:15,000
Speaker 1: sometimes they have a really strong case for one thing,

1593
01:34:15,040 --> 01:34:17,600
Speaker 1: and then the other ones there's nothing, and then in

1594
01:34:17,680 --> 01:34:21,080
Speaker 1: other cases that showing something the opposite. And I think

1595
01:34:21,560 --> 01:34:24,479
Speaker 1: when I gathered all those data sets and saw it

1596
01:34:24,600 --> 01:34:28,679
Speaker 1: for myself across all these different places, it became pretty

1597
01:34:28,680 --> 01:34:31,400
Speaker 1: clear to me that there probably is something going on,

1598
01:34:32,080 --> 01:34:36,760
Speaker 1: but it's changing obviously across the landscape, and I don't

1599
01:34:36,800 --> 01:34:39,120
Speaker 1: know how best to predict how it's going to change yet,

1600
01:34:39,240 --> 01:34:42,639
Speaker 1: and I don't know if we ever will. Have you

1601
01:34:42,720 --> 01:34:45,000
Speaker 1: have you, um, I know there's been a lot of

1602
01:34:45,000 --> 01:34:47,880
Speaker 1: different things and research looking into us. I I don't

1603
01:34:47,880 --> 01:34:50,519
Speaker 1: know if you personally have. Have you spent any time

1604
01:34:50,600 --> 01:34:55,080
Speaker 1: looking into other factors that increase or decrease deer activity

1605
01:34:55,080 --> 01:34:57,280
Speaker 1: and movement that you can point to and say, yes,

1606
01:34:57,840 --> 01:35:01,320
Speaker 1: for sure X variable an increased dear movement that we

1607
01:35:01,360 --> 01:35:06,320
Speaker 1: can key in on his hunters. Well, I do have

1608
01:35:06,400 --> 01:35:11,040
Speaker 1: a little bit of experience looking at different weather variables

1609
01:35:11,080 --> 01:35:15,080
Speaker 1: for instance. Uh, my primary experience has been looking at

1610
01:35:15,120 --> 01:35:19,080
Speaker 1: how coyotes are. You know, different kinds of predators influence movements,

1611
01:35:20,000 --> 01:35:23,679
Speaker 1: but they do shift and tend to shift their behavior,

1612
01:35:24,040 --> 01:35:27,479
Speaker 1: you know, during the daytime when it's extremely cold at night.

1613
01:35:28,640 --> 01:35:32,720
Speaker 1: Uh so that's one thing obviously people probably already do that.

1614
01:35:32,760 --> 01:35:36,440
Speaker 1: There there are variable effects of different kinds of fronts

1615
01:35:36,479 --> 01:35:40,000
Speaker 1: that could cause them to move more than than other times.

1616
01:35:40,040 --> 01:35:45,880
Speaker 1: But you know, again, uh, these depending on where you

1617
01:35:45,920 --> 01:35:49,599
Speaker 1: do these studies, you find something different, and uh, I

1618
01:35:49,640 --> 01:35:51,240
Speaker 1: think that a lot of it has to go by

1619
01:35:51,280 --> 01:35:54,040
Speaker 1: local knowledge. You know, everybody has their own strategy that

1620
01:35:54,120 --> 01:35:57,800
Speaker 1: they have developed over time from the places that they hunt,

1621
01:35:58,360 --> 01:36:01,519
Speaker 1: and uh, you know they're probably get good data. Now

1622
01:36:01,760 --> 01:36:05,240
Speaker 1: one thing, just a short plug one one thing that

1623
01:36:05,280 --> 01:36:07,240
Speaker 1: we're trying to do through the Deer Lab. We haven't

1624
01:36:07,479 --> 01:36:12,960
Speaker 1: a hunting app, and uh, Bronson strict one was the

1625
01:36:13,000 --> 01:36:16,280
Speaker 1: one responsible primarily, and Stephen maris also I'm coming in

1626
01:36:16,360 --> 01:36:19,360
Speaker 1: after the fact after they've already made that. But uh,

1627
01:36:19,400 --> 01:36:23,280
Speaker 1: that app is designed to help us gather some data

1628
01:36:23,360 --> 01:36:27,160
Speaker 1: from hunters all over the place, so that goes into

1629
01:36:27,160 --> 01:36:30,160
Speaker 1: a repository that we could actually then look at some

1630
01:36:30,200 --> 01:36:32,559
Speaker 1: of these types of things like you know there's some

1631
01:36:32,640 --> 01:36:36,240
Speaker 1: sort of weather event or know the moon phase or

1632
01:36:36,280 --> 01:36:40,639
Speaker 1: that that sort of stuff. Is there actually are things

1633
01:36:40,800 --> 01:36:45,200
Speaker 1: changing when hunters are seeing deer and when they're successful.

1634
01:36:45,640 --> 01:36:48,360
Speaker 1: So really that that will that will be one of

1635
01:36:48,360 --> 01:36:52,360
Speaker 1: the best data sets, assuming that hunters use it and

1636
01:36:52,720 --> 01:36:56,080
Speaker 1: are truthful when they're presenting the data. Obviously, we were

1637
01:36:56,120 --> 01:36:59,800
Speaker 1: not gonna you know, we're not gonna sharing the data

1638
01:36:59,840 --> 01:37:02,040
Speaker 1: with people that could go steal your hunting stand or something.

1639
01:37:02,080 --> 01:37:06,519
Speaker 1: But uh, you know that platform is designed to help

1640
01:37:06,680 --> 01:37:11,360
Speaker 1: us inform questions like this because the the methods that

1641
01:37:11,400 --> 01:37:14,640
Speaker 1: we've been using with coloring animals in particular or just

1642
01:37:14,720 --> 01:37:18,240
Speaker 1: not providing really consistent results across the range of deer.

1643
01:37:18,760 --> 01:37:22,040
Speaker 1: So you know that tool if we get thousands and

1644
01:37:22,120 --> 01:37:26,080
Speaker 1: thousands of hunters reporting to us when they're seeing deer. Uh.

1645
01:37:26,160 --> 01:37:28,679
Speaker 1: Of course, the app is not designed that. The app

1646
01:37:28,760 --> 01:37:30,720
Speaker 1: is designed to help you with your own hunting and

1647
01:37:30,760 --> 01:37:33,920
Speaker 1: manage your own stand locations and and for you to

1648
01:37:34,040 --> 01:37:37,160
Speaker 1: generate reports to see where you're seeing deer. So that's

1649
01:37:37,160 --> 01:37:39,640
Speaker 1: what the apps for. But it's being stored in a

1650
01:37:39,680 --> 01:37:42,280
Speaker 1: way that we could use it to look and see

1651
01:37:42,320 --> 01:37:44,760
Speaker 1: if the moon phases affecting when hunters are seeing deer

1652
01:37:44,800 --> 01:37:48,720
Speaker 1: in in general. So uh, you know that I think

1653
01:37:48,760 --> 01:37:52,000
Speaker 1: that will be a pretty good resource for the Deer

1654
01:37:52,080 --> 01:37:56,080
Speaker 1: Lab to explore in the future and hopefully we'll have

1655
01:37:56,080 --> 01:37:59,880
Speaker 1: a load. Um. But so it's if you go to

1656
01:38:00,200 --> 01:38:04,040
Speaker 1: M s U Deer Lab website, there's a link on there.

1657
01:38:04,200 --> 01:38:07,479
Speaker 1: It's called the the Deer Hunt App, I believe, yeah,

1658
01:38:07,479 --> 01:38:10,760
Speaker 1: And it's a free app. It's free for anybody to

1659
01:38:11,000 --> 01:38:13,760
Speaker 1: download and use as they please. And it has a

1660
01:38:13,840 --> 01:38:17,120
Speaker 1: lot of really interesting features in it. Uh. You can

1661
01:38:17,160 --> 01:38:19,960
Speaker 1: manage stand you can manage like a hunt club, so

1662
01:38:20,200 --> 01:38:22,800
Speaker 1: everybody could see stands that you have on the hunt

1663
01:38:22,800 --> 01:38:25,840
Speaker 1: club and you can see whether or not somebody's occupying

1664
01:38:25,840 --> 01:38:28,599
Speaker 1: the stand, those sorts of things. But you can also

1665
01:38:28,800 --> 01:38:31,920
Speaker 1: create a side hunt club for your own stands where

1666
01:38:31,920 --> 01:38:33,840
Speaker 1: the rest of the people in the Hunt club can't

1667
01:38:33,880 --> 01:38:37,479
Speaker 1: see them. So you have some privacy options in it

1668
01:38:37,560 --> 01:38:42,240
Speaker 1: too to do that kind of thing. Um. So a

1669
01:38:42,280 --> 01:38:45,519
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of really cool things in that

1670
01:38:45,560 --> 01:38:48,639
Speaker 1: app that you could use. And this is a again

1671
01:38:48,680 --> 01:38:52,960
Speaker 1: available on on you know an idos or an Android.

1672
01:38:54,080 --> 01:38:57,320
Speaker 1: So really cool app and and it will help us

1673
01:38:57,479 --> 01:39:01,360
Speaker 1: it's called it's called the Deer Hunt app. Uh, it'll

1674
01:39:01,400 --> 01:39:03,800
Speaker 1: help us answer some of these questions. Hopefully we can,

1675
01:39:04,320 --> 01:39:06,880
Speaker 1: you know, give you a more straight forward answer on

1676
01:39:07,080 --> 01:39:10,720
Speaker 1: how the moon affects deer or or what weather patterns

1677
01:39:10,840 --> 01:39:14,200
Speaker 1: affect dear behavior. That can help you harvest that big

1678
01:39:14,240 --> 01:39:17,400
Speaker 1: But there you go some citizens Science opportunity there for

1679
01:39:17,439 --> 01:39:20,680
Speaker 1: all of us to contribute a little bit. Yeah, we

1680
01:39:20,680 --> 01:39:23,439
Speaker 1: actually want to do a couple of different things with

1681
01:39:23,520 --> 01:39:26,719
Speaker 1: the Citizens Science. So we also were trying to figure

1682
01:39:26,720 --> 01:39:29,920
Speaker 1: out a nice protocol to allow hunters to do mineral

1683
01:39:30,000 --> 01:39:33,400
Speaker 1: stomps and then uh, you know, send us some data

1684
01:39:33,479 --> 01:39:36,720
Speaker 1: that we can then make available to hunters at a

1685
01:39:36,720 --> 01:39:40,880
Speaker 1: broad scale. So, yeah, we actually have several opportunities like that,

1686
01:39:41,000 --> 01:39:44,960
Speaker 1: hopefully that that the deer can help us inform or

1687
01:39:45,000 --> 01:39:48,920
Speaker 1: the hunters can help us inform them about their deer. Yeah. Yeah, well, hey,

1688
01:39:49,160 --> 01:39:51,880
Speaker 1: whenever those opportunities are available, definitely let us know. I'll

1689
01:39:51,920 --> 01:39:54,360
Speaker 1: be sure to share that with our listeners, because I

1690
01:39:54,400 --> 01:39:56,400
Speaker 1: think anytime we can help contribute to that kind of thing,

1691
01:39:56,400 --> 01:39:58,920
Speaker 1: it's a good idea and it eventually will come around

1692
01:39:58,920 --> 01:40:01,520
Speaker 1: and help us too, I think with us final absolutely,

1693
01:40:01,720 --> 01:40:03,840
Speaker 1: that's the whole point of this is we're trying to

1694
01:40:03,920 --> 01:40:06,160
Speaker 1: learn so that we can share it with the the

1695
01:40:06,200 --> 01:40:12,160
Speaker 1: other people. So, so, you've spent so many years studying

1696
01:40:12,479 --> 01:40:16,960
Speaker 1: white tails and other wildlife and habitat all these different things.

1697
01:40:17,680 --> 01:40:22,360
Speaker 1: What piece of research or what study or what aspect

1698
01:40:22,439 --> 01:40:26,800
Speaker 1: of what you've looked into has actually changed how you

1699
01:40:26,880 --> 01:40:29,479
Speaker 1: hunt the most? Like, what's been the most impactful insight

1700
01:40:29,520 --> 01:40:34,000
Speaker 1: you've garnered over the years that actually impacts your hunting? Yeah,

1701
01:40:34,120 --> 01:40:39,559
Speaker 1: that that's a a great question, and it would. So

1702
01:40:39,680 --> 01:40:42,879
Speaker 1: there there are two that are really impacting my hunting.

1703
01:40:43,560 --> 01:40:46,920
Speaker 1: One is the mineral stumps, and it's been impacting my

1704
01:40:47,000 --> 01:40:51,160
Speaker 1: hunting for years and I just now know why. So

1705
01:40:51,560 --> 01:40:54,360
Speaker 1: I've been doing that around my bow stands and have

1706
01:40:54,439 --> 01:40:57,840
Speaker 1: been quite successful for a number of years, both hunting

1707
01:40:59,560 --> 01:41:02,599
Speaker 1: by cut those trees down and having that natural source

1708
01:41:02,640 --> 01:41:06,120
Speaker 1: of vegetation right near my stand. So that's one thing

1709
01:41:06,160 --> 01:41:10,040
Speaker 1: that has really impacted my bow hunting. The other thing,

1710
01:41:10,439 --> 01:41:13,639
Speaker 1: and I primarily bow hunt, so it can be important

1711
01:41:13,680 --> 01:41:16,320
Speaker 1: for you know, that rifle hunter as well, but that's

1712
01:41:16,320 --> 01:41:19,240
Speaker 1: what that's what I'm using it for. Uh. The other

1713
01:41:19,360 --> 01:41:23,759
Speaker 1: thing is actually impacting my my bow hunting also, especially

1714
01:41:23,800 --> 01:41:28,040
Speaker 1: on my own property. And I followed while I was

1715
01:41:28,080 --> 01:41:33,640
Speaker 1: in Tennessee working with Craig. I followed acorn production of

1716
01:41:33,640 --> 01:41:37,280
Speaker 1: white oaks for a number of years and it was

1717
01:41:37,320 --> 01:41:41,760
Speaker 1: pretty interesting to look at individual oaks and follow them

1718
01:41:41,760 --> 01:41:45,080
Speaker 1: over time, and it turns out about fifty percent of

1719
01:41:45,080 --> 01:41:50,519
Speaker 1: oaks will produce almost no mask. So I thought that

1720
01:41:50,600 --> 01:41:53,599
Speaker 1: was really interesting. And the reason it's impacting my hunting

1721
01:41:53,640 --> 01:41:58,120
Speaker 1: now is actually marked trees based on their production potential

1722
01:41:58,240 --> 01:42:00,080
Speaker 1: on my property and then cut all the rest of

1723
01:42:00,240 --> 01:42:04,920
Speaker 1: them down, so that that fanning basically released all of

1724
01:42:04,960 --> 01:42:10,080
Speaker 1: my excellent producers and now they produce an ungodly amount

1725
01:42:10,080 --> 01:42:13,120
Speaker 1: of mask and I love sitting next to one of

1726
01:42:13,160 --> 01:42:16,479
Speaker 1: them with a you know, archery equipment. It has might

1727
01:42:16,880 --> 01:42:18,880
Speaker 1: there a little bit harder to find though, because we

1728
01:42:18,960 --> 01:42:23,440
Speaker 1: have a lot of great cover with these awesome producers

1729
01:42:23,680 --> 01:42:27,240
Speaker 1: spread out within that cover. So uh, you know, it's

1730
01:42:27,240 --> 01:42:30,719
Speaker 1: improved the habitat dramatically. But but that that oak mass

1731
01:42:30,760 --> 01:42:35,040
Speaker 1: production has just been unbelievable and that's definitely impacted my

1732
01:42:35,120 --> 01:42:40,000
Speaker 1: hunting a great amount. So how how can someone go

1733
01:42:40,080 --> 01:42:43,479
Speaker 1: about really figuring that out for their own oak trees?

1734
01:42:43,520 --> 01:42:44,840
Speaker 1: Because I feel like a lot of us, like we

1735
01:42:44,880 --> 01:42:46,559
Speaker 1: go out there in the summer and we see, oh, yeah,

1736
01:42:46,640 --> 01:42:48,880
Speaker 1: this tree seems to be producing. If I don't, I

1737
01:42:48,880 --> 01:42:50,640
Speaker 1: mean a lot of people don't pay attention to that

1738
01:42:50,640 --> 01:42:53,360
Speaker 1: at all. But people that do pay pay attention to oaks,

1739
01:42:53,439 --> 01:42:55,400
Speaker 1: imagine that might be the extent of it, is that

1740
01:42:55,520 --> 01:42:58,120
Speaker 1: is this tree producer or not this year? And you know,

1741
01:42:58,120 --> 01:43:01,320
Speaker 1: will I hunt near How could we well determine whether

1742
01:43:01,400 --> 01:43:03,080
Speaker 1: or not this is an old tree to keep or

1743
01:43:03,160 --> 01:43:05,000
Speaker 1: an old tree to get rid of? When I was

1744
01:43:05,040 --> 01:43:06,680
Speaker 1: looking at that study. I was trying to figure out

1745
01:43:06,720 --> 01:43:10,799
Speaker 1: is there a characteristic of the trees that would predict

1746
01:43:10,840 --> 01:43:12,720
Speaker 1: whether or not it's going to be a good producer.

1747
01:43:12,920 --> 01:43:16,439
Speaker 1: And the short answer that is no. It seems to

1748
01:43:16,479 --> 01:43:21,320
Speaker 1: be a genetic um predisposition of that tree. It's either

1749
01:43:21,680 --> 01:43:24,320
Speaker 1: good genetics to produce a lot of acorns or it doesn't.

1750
01:43:25,479 --> 01:43:28,080
Speaker 1: So if it doesn't, it doesn't matter what you do.

1751
01:43:28,160 --> 01:43:30,640
Speaker 1: You can release that tree, you can fertilize it. You know,

1752
01:43:30,680 --> 01:43:32,479
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. It's never going to produce a lot

1753
01:43:32,520 --> 01:43:36,960
Speaker 1: of masks. The excellent producer, on the other hand, is

1754
01:43:37,000 --> 01:43:39,080
Speaker 1: always going to produce a lot of masks no matter

1755
01:43:39,120 --> 01:43:42,960
Speaker 1: what you do. So you can enhance that, particularly by

1756
01:43:43,000 --> 01:43:45,800
Speaker 1: releasing it by cutting trees around it down and letting

1757
01:43:45,840 --> 01:43:50,000
Speaker 1: its can at the Expand so with that being said,

1758
01:43:50,120 --> 01:43:53,519
Speaker 1: to determine whether or not it's a good producer, you

1759
01:43:53,600 --> 01:43:56,040
Speaker 1: need to follow whether or not that that tree has

1760
01:43:56,080 --> 01:43:59,160
Speaker 1: produced for a couple of a couple or three years.

1761
01:43:59,840 --> 01:44:02,760
Speaker 1: And particularly if you follow it for three years, with

1762
01:44:02,840 --> 01:44:06,960
Speaker 1: about nine certainty, you can estimate which ones are excellent

1763
01:44:07,000 --> 01:44:12,120
Speaker 1: producers and which ones are poor. So that's pretty that's

1764
01:44:12,160 --> 01:44:13,760
Speaker 1: a pretty big deal. If you were going to try

1765
01:44:13,800 --> 01:44:15,880
Speaker 1: to thin a stand. And you know a lot of

1766
01:44:15,880 --> 01:44:17,800
Speaker 1: people don't want to thin their oaks stand because they

1767
01:44:17,800 --> 01:44:19,439
Speaker 1: don't want to cut down any oaks that are going

1768
01:44:19,520 --> 01:44:22,960
Speaker 1: to produce masks. Well, this is the sort of that

1769
01:44:22,960 --> 01:44:25,880
Speaker 1: that silver lining where you could actually cut down about

1770
01:44:25,880 --> 01:44:29,160
Speaker 1: half of your oaks and actually improve mass production because

1771
01:44:29,200 --> 01:44:33,040
Speaker 1: you cut down only oaks that didn't produce anything. So

1772
01:44:33,160 --> 01:44:36,479
Speaker 1: they could be a very useful tool. Uh So if

1773
01:44:36,520 --> 01:44:39,360
Speaker 1: you follow them for a few years, especially if you

1774
01:44:39,400 --> 01:44:42,080
Speaker 1: follow them three years, and of course the better, the better,

1775
01:44:42,200 --> 01:44:45,679
Speaker 1: the the data will be the longer that you follow

1776
01:44:45,840 --> 01:44:48,400
Speaker 1: the tree. But if you follow it for three years

1777
01:44:48,479 --> 01:44:51,800
Speaker 1: and it produces an acorn out two out of those

1778
01:44:51,840 --> 01:44:57,040
Speaker 1: three years, then it's probably in the excellent category. And

1779
01:44:57,080 --> 01:44:59,760
Speaker 1: then when you cut those trees down, then you can

1780
01:45:00,040 --> 01:45:02,400
Speaker 1: and on taking advantage of the mineral stump that season

1781
01:45:02,439 --> 01:45:07,439
Speaker 1: two right, yeah, yeah, yeah, and uh just so you

1782
01:45:07,479 --> 01:45:10,240
Speaker 1: set for that season. Just just one note, I have

1783
01:45:10,360 --> 01:45:13,200
Speaker 1: cut down mineral stumps that are five years old now

1784
01:45:13,240 --> 01:45:17,679
Speaker 1: and the deer still just crushing them. So the deer

1785
01:45:17,720 --> 01:45:21,759
Speaker 1: actually will help you keep that thing producing for several

1786
01:45:21,840 --> 01:45:24,840
Speaker 1: years in some cases, and so you might you might

1787
01:45:24,920 --> 01:45:28,519
Speaker 1: get several years out of it, out of the mineral

1788
01:45:28,560 --> 01:45:31,400
Speaker 1: stomps around those trees that you've released that are also

1789
01:45:31,520 --> 01:45:35,200
Speaker 1: producing you know, a ton of masks, and so we

1790
01:45:35,479 --> 01:45:37,200
Speaker 1: keep circling back to the mineral stumps here. But it

1791
01:45:37,320 --> 01:45:42,240
Speaker 1: is an interesting idea. So I'm thinking, if I'm interpreting

1792
01:45:42,240 --> 01:45:48,400
Speaker 1: this correctly, these mineral stumps could last years if there's

1793
01:45:48,680 --> 01:45:52,000
Speaker 1: enough browse pressure, so there's enough deer to keep that

1794
01:45:52,080 --> 01:45:55,559
Speaker 1: knocked down so it doesn't grow to reach maturity again.

1795
01:45:55,560 --> 01:45:58,439
Speaker 1: Because because the process is right, that that tree is

1796
01:45:58,439 --> 01:46:01,799
Speaker 1: trying to balance itself from what belowground, the root system belowground,

1797
01:46:01,800 --> 01:46:03,800
Speaker 1: to what's above ground. So as long as what's above

1798
01:46:03,840 --> 01:46:06,760
Speaker 1: ground is is not substantial, as long as a deer

1799
01:46:06,840 --> 01:46:09,599
Speaker 1: keep it knocked down, it'll keep being a mineral stump

1800
01:46:09,600 --> 01:46:15,440
Speaker 1: and producing the superfood. Right. Yeah, I don't know biologically

1801
01:46:15,479 --> 01:46:18,360
Speaker 1: it should still be a superfood. I have not collected

1802
01:46:18,400 --> 01:46:21,240
Speaker 1: the data on the nutrient content of any of them

1803
01:46:21,240 --> 01:46:24,320
Speaker 1: that have been going more than a year yet, but

1804
01:46:24,439 --> 01:46:27,160
Speaker 1: I will say in terms of the dear behavioral response

1805
01:46:27,200 --> 01:46:30,600
Speaker 1: to it, yes, they will continue to come back and

1806
01:46:30,680 --> 01:46:35,040
Speaker 1: hit that thing over and over again. And if the

1807
01:46:35,080 --> 01:46:39,200
Speaker 1: brows pressure is substantial enough, well, if it's if it's

1808
01:46:39,400 --> 01:46:43,879
Speaker 1: too there's sort of a balance there. If it's too intense,

1809
01:46:44,160 --> 01:46:46,920
Speaker 1: it'll just kill the plant. But you know, if it's

1810
01:46:46,920 --> 01:46:49,080
Speaker 1: not intense enough, the plant will grow out of it.

1811
01:46:50,280 --> 01:46:52,160
Speaker 1: I wonder to grow out of the ridge. So there's

1812
01:46:52,200 --> 01:46:54,880
Speaker 1: sort of a you know, a mid range there where

1813
01:46:54,920 --> 01:46:57,439
Speaker 1: you want a lot of brows pressure on it, but

1814
01:46:57,479 --> 01:47:01,280
Speaker 1: not so much that they just kill the plant. So, uh, yeah,

1815
01:47:01,320 --> 01:47:04,080
Speaker 1: in some cases I feel I've actually it seems like

1816
01:47:04,120 --> 01:47:06,439
Speaker 1: that would be hard to hit that range. But most

1817
01:47:06,479 --> 01:47:09,280
Speaker 1: of the time, when I've cut ten or twelve of

1818
01:47:09,320 --> 01:47:12,040
Speaker 1: these things down, the deer will keep it at the

1819
01:47:12,160 --> 01:47:15,120
Speaker 1: right height to keep utilizing it for a couple of

1820
01:47:15,120 --> 01:47:19,400
Speaker 1: seasons normally. So is there could could we manufacture that

1821
01:47:19,600 --> 01:47:23,240
Speaker 1: same um mechanism? So let's say we're in a situation

1822
01:47:23,280 --> 01:47:26,000
Speaker 1: where there's not enough brows pressure to keep it knocked down.

1823
01:47:26,040 --> 01:47:28,599
Speaker 1: So after you're one, I can tell it's it's going

1824
01:47:28,640 --> 01:47:30,760
Speaker 1: to be growing too much. What if I go and

1825
01:47:30,880 --> 01:47:33,120
Speaker 1: prune it. What if I trim it every year to

1826
01:47:33,240 --> 01:47:36,519
Speaker 1: keep it down in that sweet spot? Could I kind

1827
01:47:36,520 --> 01:47:41,280
Speaker 1: of artificially maintain then yeah, you can for a few

1828
01:47:41,360 --> 01:47:45,160
Speaker 1: years at least. Eventually the plant will run out of resources,

1829
01:47:45,960 --> 01:47:50,000
Speaker 1: and based on that fact, you'd probably expect that the

1830
01:47:50,000 --> 01:47:52,599
Speaker 1: the huge bumping quality you get from the first time

1831
01:47:52,680 --> 01:47:56,639
Speaker 1: may not happen the next time because the trees already

1832
01:47:56,680 --> 01:47:59,960
Speaker 1: used some of its resources. Uh again, I don't have

1833
01:48:00,120 --> 01:48:03,000
Speaker 1: date on that, but intuitively that's what I think would happen.

1834
01:48:03,840 --> 01:48:07,280
Speaker 1: So the short answers, Yes, you could continually cut the

1835
01:48:07,320 --> 01:48:10,280
Speaker 1: same one down to make it available to deer, but

1836
01:48:10,320 --> 01:48:13,320
Speaker 1: at some point it will just die because it won't

1837
01:48:13,320 --> 01:48:18,480
Speaker 1: have enough resources to keep responding to that. So uh yeah.

1838
01:48:19,040 --> 01:48:21,400
Speaker 1: In short, you could if you if you cut a

1839
01:48:21,400 --> 01:48:23,040
Speaker 1: bunch of them down and some of them, some of

1840
01:48:23,040 --> 01:48:24,760
Speaker 1: them get out of the reach of deer, you could

1841
01:48:24,840 --> 01:48:29,360
Speaker 1: go come down again. All right? Well, Dan, do you

1842
01:48:29,439 --> 01:48:34,519
Speaker 1: have any final questions for Marcus here? What kind of

1843
01:48:34,600 --> 01:48:41,719
Speaker 1: change saw do I need to buy? Well? Uh, whatever

1844
01:48:41,800 --> 01:48:45,920
Speaker 1: you can effectively cut a tree down with. Um. Yeah,

1845
01:48:46,040 --> 01:48:49,080
Speaker 1: I've used a variety of different kinds of chainsaws and

1846
01:48:49,120 --> 01:48:52,640
Speaker 1: even use an axe and a hatchet. Uh. You know,

1847
01:48:52,680 --> 01:48:56,880
Speaker 1: it all works, So all right, find something on sale

1848
01:48:56,880 --> 01:49:03,160
Speaker 1: at trackers splayed in We'll do all right, Well, anything

1849
01:49:03,400 --> 01:49:05,880
Speaker 1: else that you want to leave our listeners with, Marcus?

1850
01:49:05,920 --> 01:49:07,760
Speaker 1: Is there any point that we haven't gotten to or

1851
01:49:07,760 --> 01:49:09,760
Speaker 1: any kind of pet project you want to make sure

1852
01:49:09,840 --> 01:49:15,479
Speaker 1: that people know about. No, just I'm I'm glad everybody

1853
01:49:15,680 --> 01:49:18,080
Speaker 1: has been listening and and thanks for having me on

1854
01:49:18,120 --> 01:49:22,000
Speaker 1: the show. And you know, I always encourage the listeners

1855
01:49:22,080 --> 01:49:25,120
Speaker 1: to come check out our Facebook page and social media.

1856
01:49:25,680 --> 01:49:29,960
Speaker 1: Uh m s you Deer Lab web page, great resources

1857
01:49:30,040 --> 01:49:34,839
Speaker 1: and and keep listening to your podcast. You've got great information.

1858
01:49:34,960 --> 01:49:37,439
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you having me on. Well, thank you, Marcus.

1859
01:49:37,439 --> 01:49:39,880
Speaker 1: Absolutely same back to you as well, and we'll make

1860
01:49:39,880 --> 01:49:42,640
Speaker 1: sure to have links to the Deer Lab website and

1861
01:49:42,720 --> 01:49:45,400
Speaker 1: Facebook page and the Deer University podcast. You guys are

1862
01:49:45,400 --> 01:49:48,920
Speaker 1: putting out lots of great information. Um that that I've

1863
01:49:48,960 --> 01:49:50,680
Speaker 1: definitely been able to learn some stuff from two. So

1864
01:49:50,720 --> 01:49:53,320
Speaker 1: thank you Marcus. We appreciate it. Yeah, yeah, thank you.

1865
01:49:54,240 --> 01:49:56,320
Speaker 1: And that's going to do it for us today. Thank

1866
01:49:56,400 --> 01:49:58,839
Speaker 1: you so much for tuning in for this one. Before

1867
01:49:58,880 --> 01:50:00,519
Speaker 1: we go, they'll just want to you have a big

1868
01:50:00,560 --> 01:50:03,679
Speaker 1: thank you to our partners at Sick Gear, Yetie Cooler's,

1869
01:50:03,800 --> 01:50:07,280
Speaker 1: Matthew's Archery, Maven Optics, The White Tail in Student of

1870
01:50:07,320 --> 01:50:10,640
Speaker 1: North America, Trophy Ridge and hunt Terra Maps, and of

1871
01:50:10,680 --> 01:50:13,439
Speaker 1: course thank you again for listening. I hope you have

1872
01:50:13,600 --> 01:50:16,280
Speaker 1: a great weekend, a great week I hope we're gonna

1873
01:50:16,280 --> 01:50:19,439
Speaker 1: see some of you on the twenty one of July

1874
01:50:19,600 --> 01:50:24,559
Speaker 1: two thousand seventeen. Are live recording Friday morning AM at

1875
01:50:24,560 --> 01:50:27,920
Speaker 1: the q d M A National Convention and uh that's

1876
01:50:27,920 --> 01:50:29,600
Speaker 1: gonna be a lot of fun. Hopeful we'll see you

1877
01:50:29,680 --> 01:50:33,200
Speaker 1: later that night as well, eight pm. Location is tb D.

1878
01:50:33,640 --> 01:50:37,120
Speaker 1: We'll be posting on our Facebook page, Twitter or Instagram.

1879
01:50:37,240 --> 01:50:41,040
Speaker 1: So thanks again, have a great day and stay wired

1880
01:50:41,200 --> 01:50:41,679
Speaker 1: to hunt.