WEBVTT - The Future of Copyright and IP: Part 2 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:07.200 Brought to you by Toyota. Let's go places. Welcome to 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:14.480 Forward Thinking He there, and welcome to Forward Thinking about 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:17.960 podcast that looks at the future and says why because 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:21.520 we like you. I'm Jonathan Strickland, I'm Laura, and I'm 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:24.319 Joe McCormick. And this is going to be part two 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:29.560 of our discussion about copyright, uh, creativity and and the 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:32.760 future of intellectual property. This was based on an email 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:35.160 from our listener Dave. So if you haven't heard part 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:38.000 one of this discussion, go back to our last podcast, 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:41.239 listen to that episode, then come back and dive right 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:45.040 into this one because it's in medias race. Y'all. That 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:49.120 is correct. But let's talk a little bit about alternatives 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:53.199 to this copyright just the if we If you're an 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:55.800 artist and you want to create a work, and you 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:58.680 want to have some protection of your work, but you 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:03.720 also want people to be able and and feel um uh, 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:07.000 they feel like they can totally take that work and 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:10.080 tweak it in some way, make something new, rather than 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:13.039 attaching a letter of intent to every single piece of 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:16.400 thing that you create. Yeah, what do you do? Well? 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:18.480 One thing you could do is use something like a 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:22.399 public copyright license, which is a way for original authors 0:01:22.400 --> 0:01:26.479 to grant copyright permissions under specific conditions, depending upon whatever 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:28.880 the license says. And there are a lot of different 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:31.319 types out there, but the most famous would be the 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:36.759 Creative Commons license. And uh this came about because there 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:38.240 were a group of people who are saying, you know, 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:41.520 I want to create a way for creators to be 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:44.759 able to put their works out and have that peace 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:48.680 of mind, but also to encourage creativity in the community. 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:52.520 So not just be um, you know, a black and white, 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:56.280 don't use my stuff. It is guarded for my entire 0:01:56.320 --> 0:02:01.160 lifetime plus another seventy years. Uh. So copyright doesn't really 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.680 have that flexibility right there. There aren't grades of copyright, 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:07.880 so you have to create these licenses. And licensing is 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:10.440 one of those things that most people don't have, you know, 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:13.560 the the ability to do You need lawyers in there, 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:15.480 and it's just one of those things where if you 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:18.519 are an individual artist, you might feel like you don't 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:21.519 have a means of doing this. That's where Creative Commons 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:24.120 came in, not for profit organization that did this work 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:27.280 on the behalf of artists, so that artists can then 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:31.359 use these licenses free of charge and to find how 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:34.520 their work may or may not be used. The organization 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:37.000 itself was founded in two thousand one and released its 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:39.280 first set of licenses in two thousand two, which was 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:43.440 version one point Oh. They revised those licenses over time, 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:46.800 and here are some of the Actually, here are the 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:49.440 six main ones. Uh So, here are the six main 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:52.600 types of Creative Commons license. The c C B Y License, 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:55.440 which allows others to use your original work as they 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:59.200 see fit, even for commercial purposes, as long as they 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:03.359 attribute you for the original creation. So this is their 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:07.320 widest like that, like the one that has the most leniency. Right. 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:10.800 So if I create something and Joe, you're you think 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:13.520 I'm going to remix that work and then I'm gonna 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:17.120 end up selling it on you know, some music site, 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:20.040 you can totally do that under this license. There's nothing 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:22.079 preventing you from doing it, and I've given you permission 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:24.919 through that license, even if even though my original work 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:28.120 is technically under copyright. Though I would think a question 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:32.000 might be, how do I attribute you? Well, like, can 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:34.280 I do it in some little piece of fine print 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:37.600 somewhere or do I need to Technically it depends, but 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:40.680 I mean, yes, you could like for something like a song, 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:43.160 it tends to be within the data, like the meta 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:46.160 data for the song. Um, you wouldn't have to have 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:49.880 an announcement before the song starts. Like I remixed this 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:53.320 song by Jonathan Strickland and it was cool, but I 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:56.160 made it cooler enjoy. You wouldn't have to do that. Yeah, 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:59.080 there are specific rules, and these are the basics of 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:02.520 creative There are very specific rules laid out on their 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:05.680 website exactly. Uh. Next is the c C B y 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:09.240 dash s A, which lets other others build on your 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:12.560 work like the one I just mentioned, even for commercial use, 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:16.040 but those who do also must abide by the same agreement. 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:19.800 So that means that I would grant Joe the permission 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:23.479 to remix my work, but as part of that agreement, 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:26.880 Joe also has to license it under this same type 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:30.200 of Creative Commons licenses, so that I could take Joe's 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:33.680 work and transform it into my own exactly, and you 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:36.960 would have to continue to agree. So this is supposed 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:41.120 to be to to foster creativity and sharing, the pay 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:45.440 it forward. Yeah, and Wikipedia operates under this particular Creative 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:47.760 Commons license. Next, you have the B Y dash in 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:51.360 D Creative Commons License, which allows for redistribution for commercial 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:54.920 and non commercial use, but the work cannot be changed 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:57.520 in any way and must remain whole with credit to 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:00.919 the original author. So you could freely distrib tribute this work, 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:04.159 but you couldn't chop it up. You couldn't remix it. 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:07.000 You couldn't you had you would have to, you know, 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:10.960 keep credit to the original creator of the work. By 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:14.640 dash in C allows for non commercial tweaking and building 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:17.240 upon an original work with credit to the original author. 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:20.800 So you could do you could, you know, remix something 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:22.680 to your heart's content, but you couldn't sell it. You 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:26.920 couldn't make money from it. You couldn't generate revenue that way. Uh. 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:29.279 B y dash in C D s A is the 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:32.479 same as above, only now all new creations must be 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:35.040 licensed under those exact terms. So it's similar to what 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:39.599 we were talking about before non commercial use. I create something, 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:42.240 Joe creates a remix, he has it under that same 0:05:42.360 --> 0:05:45.360 licensed Lauren creates a remix. None neither Joe nor Lauren 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:48.599 can sell their stuff. I could technically sell mine, but 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:52.840 you couldn't sell the remixes of mine. Um then you 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:55.960 have b y in C, which lets other's remix and 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:58.120 build upon your work, but only for non commercial use, 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:02.960 and also acknowledge the average an owner. So uh, those 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:06.000 are the six main types. There's also the ability to 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:09.800 put work directly into the public domain, which is kind 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:12.120 of cool. You do have to fill out some paperwork 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:19.160 so that it acknowledges that you have relinquished ownership any 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:23.159 rights to write. So the idea here is again to 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:27.240 give artists the ability some options, you know, as opposed 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:33.000 to just either full protection or you don't pursue any protection. 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:35.560 You need to have some leniency in there so that 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:38.559 you can you can foster creativity, but under the terms 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:40.480 that you feel comfortable with, so that you can still 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:43.080 make money if that's what you're choosing to do with whatever, 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:48.240 you know, whatever your work happens to be. So right now, 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:51.039 and we're gonna look into the future of copyright, but 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:55.400 right now, if nothing changes, the Steamboat Willie version of 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:58.760 Mickey Mouse will enter the public domain in twenty twenty three. 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:03.600 But that's not going to happen, probably not, yeah, because 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:06.960 that's creeping up, yeah, coming up pretty quickly. I want 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:10.440 to imagine there are already some serious talks behind closed 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:14.880 doors whether at corporations or Congress or both, about extending 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:19.440 copyright protection even further than it has already been extended. Well, 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:23.400 you know, Walt Disney's head and you know under the 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:26.760 parts of the Caribbean Ride probably has something to say 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:31.040 about it. Right, we watched too much Futurama. But yeah, 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:34.800 so this is where we get into that that issue. 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:36.760 You know what, I think, I think all of us 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:40.840 agree that the creator of a work should at least 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:45.800 be allowed for the expectation of generating revenue from that 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:49.040 work in some way. Um, whether they pursue it or 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:50.800 not is beside the point. They should at least have 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:55.720 that expectation that that is an option. But there's this 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:59.560 balance between protecting that artist or owner and protecting the 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:04.400 public and other artists who could enhance that work or 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:07.400 or or use that work in some other means, some 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:11.800 other transformative means without fear of being sued to the 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:14.080 ends of the earth and back. And now that we 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:16.920 have these corporations in place, and the corporations, like we said, 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:20.160 don't die of old age, they have every incentive to 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:26.480 keep pushing that copyright limit until it's at truly ridiculous lengths. 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:29.080 Some would argue that we're already there. Of the life 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:31.320 of the commuter. In seventy years is a long time. 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:37.680 You still can't sing the song happy Birthday without technically yeah, yeah, 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:42.000 so that's, um, we won't be doing that today. Luckily 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:44.600 it's no one's birthday. It's no one's birthday right now. 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:50.880 Happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy. 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:53.400 That's that's about as close as we're gonna get. So. 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:59.480 Um yes, So, I'm guessing that we're going to see 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:01.160 this content in you, and we're also going to see 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:05.400 more resistance, but it's probably gonna be on the sort 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:09.280 of independent artist side, where you have artists who don't 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:14.520 want to pursue this same pathway that corporations are pursuing, 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:17.360 and yet still need to make a living so that 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:20.360 they can continue to make art. Um. So, I think 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:23.199 we're going to continue to see those those public uh 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:28.840 copyright licenses being pushed. But um, but this is this 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:31.480 is tricky. I think we're gonna I think we're gonna 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:37.680 just keep seeing actual official copyright law get more intant. Yeah. Now, Joe, 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:40.160 before we recorded this podcast, we were just kind of 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:43.760 talking over ideas. You brought up an interesting kind of 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:50.079 sci fi idea about one element of copyright. What was that? Oh, well, 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.880 it's this idea of fixed and the tangible medium. You 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:56.760 remember that from earlier on. So your work, if you 0:09:56.800 --> 0:09:59.640 want to claim copyright on it has to be fixed 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:02.080 in a tangible medium. You have to write it down 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:05.760 or recorded. If it's music, it can't just be something 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:09.360 that was ephemeral and can no longer be accessed, like 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:15.040 a thought or an improvisational performance that wasn't recorded or 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:18.200 something like that. It can, however, be something that's you know, 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:22.680 written down on uh in computer memory, which some people 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:26.280 would argue doesn't seem terribly tangible because it feels like 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:29.480 it's ethereal, but in fact it actually is tangible. Sure. Well, 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:32.560 that's one way in which we've extended the ways in 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.800 which fixed in the tangible medium can apply to new 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:39.880 types of things. So, now that we have recording equipment, 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:45.160 electronic recording equipment, you can record performances of music that 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:49.240 might have been improvised on the spot. Sure, you know. Sure, 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:51.280 if you if you want that a half hour jam 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:55.480 session from Dave Matthews band, then they can copyright that. Yeah, 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:58.360 and even you can even copyright a performance of a 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:03.360 work that otherwise was in public domain. Yeah. Uh. And 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:08.680 so by by adding this new technological recording capability, we're 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:11.880 covering more of the types of works you can create 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:15.120 under copyright. And I wonder how far that can go. 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:18.920 I mean number one, I just wonder about Okay, So, 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:21.880 if we're recording more and more of our lives, if 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:26.920 recording media become super pervasive they already are very pervasive, 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:31.680 how much more of the ephemera of our lives can 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:35.080 be copyrighted and claimed as art? Can you know, if 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:38.720 you're just recording all the conversations you have with your friends, 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:43.400 can copyright conversation? Yeah? If you're recording all the humming 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:47.640 you do, just random humming while you're walking around, If 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:50.320 someday later you hear a song, You're like, that sounds 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:52.400 like something I hummed, and you can go back and 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:57.560 find it narrate in song what I'm doing a lot 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:01.320 as everyone around the off yesterday. Yeah yeah. Yeah. So 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:03.320 so I mean like, like, is my great hit um 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:07.080 going to the Refrigerator going to be a breakaway pop 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:12.120 thing next year? Well, just with the threat you could 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:15.120 have even more of a chilling effect on the creation 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:18.480 of new works. If there's just more and more out 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:22.080 there all the time that somebody could raise an issue 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:24.600 with it, like, hey, this sounds like something that I 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:28.720 created once and didn't ever plan on doing anything with um. 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.600 And then if we want to get even weirder, what 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:36.400 if we think about the ability to scan our brains. 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:39.880 I mean, obviously, right now we don't have the ability 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:43.640 to scan your brain with an e g. And say, Okay, 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:47.480 you're thinking of a yellow house on a coastline by 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:50.679 a tree, but the fact that you are having that 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:54.240 thought is in some way physical, And we could imagine 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:57.360 in the future that there might be ways that you 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:01.600 could detect the contents of somebody's thoughts by scanning their brain. 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:04.839 Your brain is a tangible medium, right, and so at 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:09.559 that point, is a recorded brain scan of an idea 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:13.439 of something that's fixed in tangible media, Well, the recording 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:15.960 would be, but I would argue the memory itself is 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:19.439 not fixed and tangible. It is tangible but not fixed. 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:25.000 But scanning would be fixed, but not the idea. That 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:27.480 is true because memories change all the time. That's right. 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:30.120 Every time we remember, we're just retrying, We're trying to 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:33.800 rebuild that original neural pathway that was formed upon the 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:37.280 creation of that memory. But every time we remember, we 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:41.200 alter that a little bit. So therefore the memory itself 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:45.720 cannot be fixed, but the scan itself could be. So 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:49.040 then you would argue, well, the scans protected, but does 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:53.920 that protection extend to whatever the idea was, and if 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:56.400 it were was a specific idea, but then you went 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:58.280 and wrote something else down that would technically be a 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:02.200 transformative work because it wouldn't be exactly the way you 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:04.360 thought of it when you created it. Would you have 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:09.280 to sue your own brain. I've often thought about suing 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:11.920 my own brain, to be honest, there have been thought. 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:15.000 It's particularly whenever I'm feeling really good about myself and 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:17.240 then my brain digs up that memory of when I 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:20.320 did something really terrible in elementary school and says, you're 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:24.440 really a terrible person. You should remember that. Yeah, that happens. 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:28.080 That's not a joke. Yeah, that's a good times brain. 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:31.440 Thanks brain. But we've got a couple of other interesting 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:34.920 points that Dave brought up right. Uh, yeah, he asked 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:38.240 in his email about fan created derivative works like fan 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.000 fiction and stuff like that. Very good point. Yeah, yeah, 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:43.920 there's there and there's actually a lot of conversation around 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:46.880 this going on, or some conversation at the very least, 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:52.840 because the Internet has allowed people to consume more and 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:57.640 also to comment more. Yeah, you know, we see a 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.360 lot of this development happened as technology a els for 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:04.240 more expression. Right. The printing press obviously was one of 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:06.440 those things that was going to push forward this concept 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:10.080 because suddenly there was the capacity to copy works on 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:14.320 a on a much larger scale than previous previously. And 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:17.280 now we've gotten to a point where it is much 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:23.400 easier to create a derivative work and distribute it globally. Yeah, yeah, right, 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:25.560 rather than just you know, writing a story and passing 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:27.920 it around in class or something like that. Yeah. And 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:30.120 another thing is that we are living in an age 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:34.760 where fan fiction and these kinds of derivative works actually 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:38.440 can become big money makers. It's not just something that's 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:41.320 taking place for fun on the side. Like think about though, 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:45.440 I hate to introduce it to the world of this podcast. 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:50.440 Fifty Shades of Gray. It's an erotic novel series that 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:54.800 apparently began as Twilight fan fiction, and they're releasing the 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:57.520 movie on Valentine's Day. How messed up? Is that. Alright, well, 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:00.560 let's not get into this movie. But anyway, this is 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:03.480 this is fan fiction that became a huge money maker 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:06.800 originally fan fiction at least. Yes, yeah, it was deemed 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:10.240 transformative enough that as long as the author changed the names, 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:15.040 it was totally ligit um. But I mean, you can 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:18.040 see why people would be concerned about this. Oh, absolutely well, 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:20.960 I mean, and and the concern goes back to basically 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:24.240 the time at which more people were getting access to 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:26.520 the Internet, back in the nineties and two thousand's, huge 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:29.760 corporations like Fox and Warner Brothers and Lucasfilm started sending 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:33.560 out cease and desists and sometimes pursued greater actions against 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:36.720 fan websites, which sounds so crazy when you say it 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:38.960 out loud, but but it was. But it was especially 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:41.640 the kind of websites that were either operating under r 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:45.560 l's that they wanted Star Wars fan dot com or 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:48.040 something like that, it's something like that, or um Harry 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:53.000 Potter World dot CEO dot uk um and and fans 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:56.200 that were posting what these corporations deemed to be too 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:59.720 much of their content. Um. Now, in general, companies have 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:02.680 act off of lawsuits like this as long as fans 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:06.320 have shown that they're not operating for profit. Well, and 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:09.440 I mean obviously it's a it's a risky pr move 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:12.280 to make, to to to go against your fan base, 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:16.040 the people who are the most passionate supporters of your work, 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:19.639 and then to say, uh, don't use the stuff you 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:24.919 love it. But they do it, I mean, you know, yeah, yeah, 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:28.400 a lot of the businesses behind beloved media these days 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:30.800 don't really seem to care very much if the fans 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:32.560 end up hating them. I mean, you could say the 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:35.439 same thing about like DRM and stuff. There are just 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:40.040 lots of companies. They're making media that people love, they're 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:44.959 taking tactics that people don't like, but where else they 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:47.960 go to. These corporations are also huge, and so it 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:50.480 can always be that there are certain departments that are 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:54.560 working with very different directives than other departments. Oh. Absolutely, 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:57.400 I imagine that a lot of actual, say, recording artists 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:02.400 are not necessarily fans of DRM rules stuff and things. 0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:08.320 There's another element to this Internet world, right, engagement. Oh yeah, well, okay, 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:11.639 so it's it's all really complex because because you know, okay, 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:15.360 fans are gaining access to two more media and two 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:20.440 more online communities than encourage participation in that media. Um, 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:24.959 not just consumption but actual participation and so and and 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:26.840 like you were saying, Jonathan, like, it's kind of free 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:29.840 marketing for the media, so they should like it, right, 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:32.800 But it's also uncontrollable, which makes a lot of big 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:36.840 corporations really twitchy. Um and and furthermore, you know that 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:41.399 the consumer creators are using for profit web spaces to 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:44.720 post and access this content, which means that third parties 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:48.000 like Facebook and Tumbler and YouTube are profiting from this 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:51.520 fan creation process. And in some cases, like YouTube, the 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:55.479 fan can be profiting indirectly through ad revenue, and in 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:58.639 some cases the third party can claim some ownership of 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:01.600 the fans works depending on those terms of service. Right. So, 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:04.560 in your YouTube example, let's say that I create a 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:10.120 YouTube video that is deemed by the original owner of 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:13.960 the work that I have incorporated in my video to 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:18.200 be uh, you know, not transformative or derivative or whatever. 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.159 They're not going to pursue legal action. They instead go 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:24.040 through YouTube. YouTube actually allows for the owner of the 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:28.080 original work to to gather the revenue generated by that 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.240 the one that I created. So if I create, if 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:34.840 I create something that pulls a ton of video from 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:38.520 Star Wars as an example, from the new Star Wars 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:41.760 trailer for sure. And let's say that my video is 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:44.359 not appreciably that much longer than the trailer, and the 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:47.800 trailer takes up a good deal of my video, then 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:49.919 it could very well be that if I decided to 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:52.240 run an ad in front of it instead of taking 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:56.480 it down, instead of blocking me, the the owner says, 0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:59.880 all right, well, just any revenue that that video generates, 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:02.600 send it to me instead. And I can totally do that, 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:06.320 you know. So um, and I think a lot of 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:10.280 us would argue that's depending upon the the extent of 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:12.560 that use, that might be kind of fair to the 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:16.280 kind of the best of all possible tricky, sticky situations, 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:19.480 better than getting sued. Yeah, there's another aspect to this 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:22.280 that is interesting in theory, and I don't want to 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:25.200 be too explicit about what I mean, but there are 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:30.760 certain types of perhaps transformative works that could take somebody's 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:33.959 intellectual property and do something new with it in a 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:37.399 way that the original creator really might not like on 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:42.640 a purely thematic level. You're talking slash vick, yeah, mainly, Yeah, 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:47.680 stuff like that. Okay, So imagine I write a series 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:52.200 of stories online that are about I don't know, Darth 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:57.439 Vader and Boba Fette being lovers, and I end up 0:20:57.440 --> 0:21:01.840 making a good bit of money with this by by 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:07.320 selling it independently, like on your donations maybe or sure, Okay, 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:11.360 what what does Lucasfilm have to say about that? I'm 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:14.199 pretty sure they're going to send you a cease and desists. Yeah, well, 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:15.800 if I mean and and the key is if you're 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:18.399 making money off of it, and that that's really the 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:20.840 key to any of this is is that I mean 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:24.560 kind of the rule of thumb is that if you're 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:27.560 not profiting from it, most companies won't go after you. 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:30.440 They just sort of they they assume that the effort 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:34.280 of doing so is greater than any benefit they stand 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:37.040 to in the case of getting you to stop doing 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:40.760 what you're doing. Hum if it's something that ends up 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:44.480 being like you know, it's it's again fostering the community, 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:47.040 they may think, well, that's not really where we're never 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:49.320 going to go in that direction. We're never going to 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:53.119 create anything officially that's in that same vein, because that's 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:56.000 not what what this this universe or story is about. 0:21:56.000 --> 0:21:59.760 From our perspective as the owners of that intellectual property. 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:02.000 But we're also not going to stop people from doing it. 0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:06.080 Because there's no actual harm done to the brand or 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:09.760 whatever it may be, then chances are nothing's going to happen. Yeah. 0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:12.840 And in general, in fact, from from having kind of 0:22:12.880 --> 0:22:15.679 listened in on conversations that that authors were having on 0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:19.360 the on the internet, a lot of authors these days, uh, 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:21.840 stay as far away from fan fiction of their works 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:24.479 as possible, because if they do read something in a 0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:27.680 fan work and wind up incorporating any element of that 0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:31.000 into a later work of their own, they have violated copyright. 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:35.399 They can transversely violate copyright exactly yea, even though they 0:22:35.600 --> 0:22:38.439 created the work that was transformed. If they copy the 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:42.959 transformed work, that's a violational copyright. Um. So yeah, do 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:45.800 not send your ideas for the Dresden Files, for example, 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:49.159 into Jim Butcher, because he'll just dislike you. This is 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:52.120 the same reason why if you ever create, you want 0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:55.600 to write a script on spec for a television series, 0:22:55.720 --> 0:22:58.040 it might be a better idea to send a script 0:22:58.119 --> 0:23:01.879 for a different TV series to that creative team to 0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:04.680 show you what show them what you're writing skills are 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:08.879 like and how you put a story together, because most 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:11.879 of those companies won't even look at an onspec script 0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:14.760 for their series for fear of that very thing happening. 0:23:14.840 --> 0:23:18.080 Yeah yeah, um if if you want to learn more 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:21.800 about this general topic of of fan created works, a 0:23:21.800 --> 0:23:24.399 guy named Henry Jenkins has written a whole lot about 0:23:24.440 --> 0:23:28.320 it um and and has really interesting savvy things to say, 0:23:28.400 --> 0:23:33.080