WEBVTT - Narcissism: But what about me? 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:02.560 Hey, before we get started, everyone, this is Chuck and 0:00:02.600 --> 0:00:04.760 I am going to be doing my first ever Facebook 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:09.159 live tomorrow at three pm Eastern. I'm very excited about this. 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:11.320 I'm gonna be talking about movie Crush. So if you're 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:13.360 a fan of that show, come by talk to me. 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:15.920 If you've got stuff you should know, questions, come by 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:20.880 talk to me tomorrow Wednesday afternoon, three pm Eastern, that's 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:24.360 noon Pacific. I'm gonna be live in front of your faces. 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:27.200 So come one, come all, can't wait to talk to everybody. 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:32.200 Welcome to Stuff you should know from how stuff Works 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:41.840 dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:45.760 and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and Noel is with 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:49.720 us again today. No guest producer, Noel. That's right. So 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:54.959 this Chuck stuff you should know. I'm gonna start whispering 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:58.560 every few lines. You know what we should do? What 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:02.480 we so everybody knows a lot of people know some 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:04.800 people know a lot of people listen to stuff you 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:08.800 should know to fall asleep. Well, actually they're probably not 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:10.880 asleep yet. We should wait a few minutes to do this. 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:13.559 Are you're gonna say start screaming every ten minutes or 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:16.480 nothing like that. We'll just start telling them things and 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:19.440 they're sleep to tell other people later, like subliminal stuff. 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:23.399 Oh like subscribe to movie Crush. Yeah, that's a good one. 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:27.240 Send us a dollar Yeah, why not make it too. 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:34.280 They have two dollar bills, you know, so, um, all right, 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:36.520 well that we'll do that later. We'll insort a movie 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:39.360 Crush subliminal message later for the people who are sleeping. 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:41.360 Did you ever get two dollar bills? His gifts from 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:46.800 wacky relatives? Yep. That they'd hand you that card with 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:49.200 a two dollar bill and they're flapping. Dickie would roll 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:51.200 up to their cheek and they'd say, here's something that 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:56.120 you shouldn't spend. Like great, thanks for nothing. Yeah, I 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:58.520 know it was. It was weird. They're almost like works 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:01.880 of art, but novelty like X ray specs or something 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:05.200 like that. Yea, we should we should do it stuff 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:08.799 you should know. Short episode on the two dollar bill 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:13.200 do we have those? No? Okay with that, the the 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:18.280 inaugural one. Yeah, SYSK shorts okay, like six minute episodes 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:20.840 like the old days. Okay, we'll get back to that. 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:22.680 I'll save us a lot of time every week if 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:24.680 we do those or maybe yeah, we should just do 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:28.240 those and not the deep dives that we've become known for. 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:31.680 Over the best in years and kiss our careers, goodbye, 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:37.200 goodbye careers, Thank you for coming. So narcissism, Oh, let's 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:38.840 let's get to it. Let's get serious. How do you 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:42.880 feel about all this? Um? So anytime, Chuck, when you 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:46.040 and I are researching one of these things separately, of course, 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:49.280 But when we're researching these, I'm always going, like the 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:52.160 mental health ones, I'm always like, um, is this me? 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:55.840 Is this describing me? And sometimes they do, you know? 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:58.640 And this one is is no exception. There are certainly 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:00.920 some parts to it, but as we'll see later, I 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:03.799 fall toward more toward one end of the spectrum than another. 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:07.240 But either way, I would not say that I'm clinical 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:09.840 in any sense of the word. As a narcissist, I'm 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:13.960 pretty sure. So yeah, how about you. Did you sit 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:16.440 there and think about me while you're researching this too? 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:21.520 It sounds like a narcissistic statement. Uh No, I didn't. 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:23.600 I didn't think about myself. If that's what you were 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:26.720 really asking, it was because I think I'm probably the 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:30.120 opposite of a narcissist. So you just walk around thinking 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:33.480 like I'm just not good enough all the time. No, because, 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:37.000 as we will learn, many narcissists at their core think 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:40.680 that deep down. Well, yeah, that's actually supposed to be 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:43.560 one of the defining traits of narcissism, which is kind 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:46.080 of surprising for people who don't know about it, because 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:49.920 when you think narcissists, you think just a complete conceited 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:53.440 jackass who's just totally self involved and couldn't care less 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:56.680 about you and your family and the fact that you've 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:59.520 got like a whole being worn in the one sweater 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:02.200 you will. They don't care about that. They just want 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:05.040 to push you around and take your pocket change. That's 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:09.680 a narcissist. And yeah, I have had a lot of 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:11.800 experience with narcissists in my life though, so I have 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:15.119 a a lot to say about it. Probably won't say 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:17.960 much of it because of protecting the innocent. You could 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:22.800 use like pseudonyms like um, like I know this narcissist, 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:24.719 I've worked with him for a decade. His name is 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:30.960 squash Park. That would work. I think that would protect people. Yeah, 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:35.520 I think my definition of narcissism after reading this especially too, 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:40.480 is uh, it's probably less clinical and more experiential for me, 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:45.360 which is basically just a general, singular point of view 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:50.240 that is only from that person's eyeballs, like an an 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:54.680 inability to like see anything from anyone else's point of 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:58.160 view other than their own, and not even recognizing that 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:01.000 that's happening. Well, I yeah, I think that's kind of 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:03.680 part of it too, is is you're so sure you're 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:07.479 right and and just so confident in your own answers 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:10.279 and thoughts and beliefs that that it would be basically 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:14.200 impossible to see anyone else's perspective. So whatever the opposite, 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:19.080 I have a clinical problem with putting myself in other 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:24.480 places too much, to a debilitating degree. Probably, Yeah, am 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:26.559 I putting that person out? Am? I? Oh my gosh? 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:29.440 Did I get in that person's way? Did I do 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:32.800 something to upset someone? I wonder if that compliment I 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:35.719 gave the checkout clerk of the grocery store was nice enough? 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:41.000 Is that what you do? No? Not really? All right. 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:45.080 I think you're just fairly emotionally stable, and your personality 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:47.000 is pretty stable too. I don't think you have a 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:49.840 lot to worry about either way. Well, maybe not that 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:53.360 small realm of my life, but no, I mean personality 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:56.119 was you got a pretty pretty good solid personality, Chuck. 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:58.640 I appreciate that, yeah, man. And and you know, one 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:00.120 of the things that stuck out to me when I 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:03.680 was researching this is this is pretty much a persistent 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:09.200 theme with psychology. Is psychology is the study of how 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:14.280 you're failing to fit into society in a good way, 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:17.000 you know, like that's the whole point of it, because 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:22.960 we've assigned psychology this this um role of determining what's normal, 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:27.159 who's normal, who's not, and then hopefully treating the people 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:30.720 who aren't normal. But really that's that that definition of 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:34.080 normalcy comes down to. We all live in society and 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:36.320 either you've you fit in pretty well or you don't 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:39.200 fit in, and there's you know, a spectrum in between. 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:41.479 And that's what psychology does, is look at all the 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:45.400 different ways people have trouble fitting in in a peaceful, quiet, 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:49.240 uh socially acceptable manner, and this is this is one 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:50.960 of them. This is one of the most prominent ones. 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:53.640 And one of the reasons it is so prominent is 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:59.960 because narcissism um, the word itself, has almost lost entire 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:04.240 early it's clinical meaning because it's been so thoroughly hijacked 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:08.159 by pop culture, which has been fostered, I have to say, 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:11.800 by some psychologists in the field who who you know, 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:15.080 used pop culture to point to the idea that narcissism 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:17.920 is on the rise or whatever. So it's it's almost 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:20.880 just completely lost its meaning. Um, And there's a lot 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:24.080 of questions about, you know, how meaningful is a diagnosis 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:27.440 of narcissism these days. Um, it seems like there is 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:30.720 still some agreement that there is what you would consider 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:37.080 a personality disorder right called narcissistic personality disorder, and that 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:41.400 it's exceedingly rare. I saw something like two thousand people 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:44.640 in the United States probably have it. That's really rare, 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:49.280 but that there is possibly such a thing as a 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:53.360 trait that a person can have which you would call narcissism, 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:56.480 which if you're saying all that person is so narcissistic, 0:07:56.680 --> 0:07:58.880 that's what you would be referring to, and you could 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:03.120 conceivably call at a subclinical level of narcissism. But that's 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:07.240 increasingly coming into greater and greater question. Yeah, Like to me, 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:10.160 I think it fully exists on a spectrum, and we'll 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:13.920 get to all this because other people feel like uh, 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:17.360 scientists feel like it does as well. But um, that's 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:20.080 for that's for later in the episode. Well, let's let's 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:24.920 do something really radically weird, and let's actually start by 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:29.960 defining narcissism. Actually, let's do something even weirder, chalk. Let's 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:34.880 start with a nice little dollarp of mythology. Okay, you 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:40.040 want to sure the story of Narcissus, which you're laughing at. 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:46.199 It's like to too. So what do you say narcissist? Oh? Interesting, 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:48.440 I have You're not the first person to say it 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:50.880 like that, though, I have heard narcissus, and I think 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:54.080 it's usually British people who say it like that. See, 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:55.960 I might be getting it from the Indigo Girl song. 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:00.440 Did that? I don't remember that one? Which one? Uh? 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:04.600 Can you sing a little bit uh hammer and a nail? 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:09.240 I think, yes, I don't know the narcis There's a 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:13.520 line where they say I look a lot like Narcissus. Huh, yeah, 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.040 that's probably where you got it. Then, I mean, I'm 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:17.760 sure that's where I got it, and probably had never 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:23.880 heard anyone say it before. Emily sailors Man, that's I 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:28.640 don't know, all right, so Narcissus was in the in 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:31.600 the myth was a apparently he was a boy that 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:34.120 was so beautiful and so good looking. And this is 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:36.080 how these myths go. They're always kind of, you know, 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:40.000 little hokey, uh like, this is the child that is 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:44.480 so good looking that they will just destroy their lives 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:48.000 in the world with their good looks. And so a 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:56.760 prophet name Teresius. Does that? Does that sound right? Okay? Yeah, 0:09:56.800 --> 0:09:58.800 I have no issues with that, all right, said to 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:02.079 said to the parents, prince, you better make sure this 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:07.000 kid Narcissus never sees himself because it's gonna be big trouble. 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:11.440 And do you think he's bad? Now? Wait until so 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:13.240 the parents are like, all right, I got you. No 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:18.240 mirrors in the house, no uh, no shiny brass babbles, 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:24.080 no stainless steel refrigerator, no windows, no nothing in our 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:26.920 house that's reflective because we gotta keep our son from 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:30.640 seeing himself. Yeah. And so I guess they were pretty 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:33.880 successful for a while for basically the kid's whole life. 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:39.520 And as Narcissus or narcissist men, you've got me going now. Um. 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:43.320 As he grew older, he was clearly aware of his looks, 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.720 because he he would anybody who fell for him. He'd 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:48.959 be like, yeah, you're you're great, but you're not good 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:53.200 enough for me. I'm sorry. Um, takeoff, hoser, was his 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:56.960 famous line. And so all the hosers would take off 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.800 and cry and cry and cry, And so he knew 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:02.640 he was good looking, but he still hadn't seen himself. 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:05.640 And um, one of the hosers that he told to 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:09.120 take off was a I think a wood nymph, right, 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:12.120 wasn't she? Or she was some sort Yeah, she was 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:17.199 a nymph named Echo, and Echo was just had it 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:20.160 about as bad for narcissust as as a nymph could 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:23.600 possibly have it for a good looking boy. And she said, 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:27.199 I'm so sad. I'm just going to just lie here 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:29.880 and cry. And she cried and cried and cried so 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:33.520 much so that she became nothing more than her own voice, 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:35.760 which you can still hear if you shout into the 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:38.800 in the mountains, and that's where the echo comes from. 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:42.839 So he went on along this path, kind of leaving 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:47.600 a trail of of ladies in his wake, uh, helplessly 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:51.520 heartbroken until finally, and he should have known this was 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:55.360 coming because her name of this Goddess was Nemesis right, 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:59.640 so you should have been steered clear there. But he 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:03.160 only wrong to Nemesis and broke her heart. And she 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:05.560 was like, well, you know what, my name is Nemesis 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:09.360 for a reason, and uh, I'm gonna punish you, sir. 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:13.760 Uh here, walk with me to this pool and look 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:16.839 down upon yourself, or maybe you're a little bit thirsty. 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:18.440 So he went down to get some water and he 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:23.240 was like, hellay, look at that fella. And he was 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:25.880 in love with himself. Yeah, he fell head over heels 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:27.880 in love with himself. But there's a couple of problems 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:31.760 with this. This this whole story would have gone totally different. 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:35.000 Had Narcissis been like, I'm in love with myself, I'm 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:37.720 going to take that self love and turn it into 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:41.679 something really great and share that with the world. Right, 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:44.640 it's going to be self confidence and productivity. I'm gonna 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:48.480 fit into society just perfectly. But that's not what happened 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:50.480 because it was a superficial love. He was in love 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:53.560 with how he looked, right. The problem with that is 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:57.600 is he could never have himself. It takes a mate, 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:01.520 another person. It's another big thing in society too, Right, 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:05.400 you gotta couple up right, Um. So he was doomed 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:09.160 forever to have an unrequited love for himself, and so 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:11.840 since the closest he could get was his reflection, he 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:14.120 just stayed by that pool forever and ever and ever 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:19.320 look at him and turned into a flower, the narcissist flower. Yeah, 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:21.959 a John Queel flower. Yeah. They're very pretty. It's like 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:26.120 a daffodil, a nice daffodil. Yeah. So that's the story 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:29.240 of where it came from. And uh, well, now we 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:34.440 should define it because you promise that so that that 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:37.160 story is pretty old. I think it's Greek at least, 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:40.560 if not maybe even older than that. UM. But in 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:44.720 the nineteenth century the Victorians realized that this is a 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:48.800 pretty good, pretty good allegory for a certain type of person. 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:52.320 And these type of people today now we know. I 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:56.640 guess the classical definition of a of a narcissist or 0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:02.600 a clinical clinical narcissist is basically somebody who's sense of 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:07.920 self importance UM, and a sense of entitlement that arises 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:12.240 from that sense of self importance is so great and 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:15.520 so ridiculously over exaggerated and so in a lot of 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:20.040 ways unfounded that UM it leads to a lot of 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:23.080 harm in their life. They have a lot of trouble. 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:25.880 They there. It's usually pretty easy for them to make 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:29.160 new friendships, but they don't last very long. They have 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:33.080 trouble accepting criticism. They may lash out, they may be aggressive, 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:37.600 They're usually fairly extroverted. Again, this is the classical clinical 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:45.000 criteria for um for a narcissist um. And they apparently, 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:50.480 like you said before, are harboring at their base, a 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:55.680 real lack of genuine self esteem or a real lack 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:59.880 of genuine self love, and that that lack is so 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:05.560 deep and so profound that it's reflected conversely on the 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:09.640 outside as just utter and complete arrogance and disregard for 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:14.800 other people's feelings. Yes, that is the classical definition or 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:20.240 criteria for a narcissist. But as we'll learn, there's another. 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:24.920 There's actually two sides to that same narcissism coin. Yes, 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:27.840 so let's go back to some more of the history there. 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:31.320 Like you said, the Victorians, they were all into this, 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:38.440 you know, kind of burgeoning psychoanalysis labeling of things. And 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:43.280 in the late eighteen nineties there was a sexologist name 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:47.800 Havelock Ellis, and I really By the way, I hated 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:51.640 all these little parenthetical uh in this article on how 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:56.280 stuff works, it's these little parenthetical asides, little judgments that 0:15:56.400 --> 0:16:00.240 this all they wrote, like Havelock Ellis, that's his real aim, 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:03.240 Like have Luck Ellis, that's a I mean, have a 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:06.960 lack is an interesting name, but it's not like unbelievable 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:09.800 in it. Can you believe this, folks? He sucked me. 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:12.880 He's not normal, and it gets worse. I'll point out 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:16.720 all three. Thank you, buddy, I'm glad I'm plodding for you. 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:19.680 Then well, what bugs you bugs me? Most likely? You 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:22.600 know what's what's great is is that's absolutely true. Like 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:25.800 when I'm researching I I can That's why I knew 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:30.000 you were thinking of me when when researching narcissism, because 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:33.880 I was thinking of myself too. Uh. So have Alack 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:38.680 Ellis said that if you masturbate a lot, then you're 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:42.640 sort of a narcissist or narcissist like yeah, and you're 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:47.040 making the saints cry that's right. Uh. And then others 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:49.920 came along he said, yeah, this is this is a thing. 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:52.880 In the early nineteen hundreds, like a nineteen eleven there 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:56.360 was another analyst name Otto Rank, who said a no 0:16:56.520 --> 0:17:00.320 snarky comment about that name, um put out a paper 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:04.040 that he's he really kind of dug into narcissism and 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:10.600 went beyond the just sexual nature of Havelock Ellis and said, 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:13.960 this is just a more generalized definition of someone who 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:18.600 is sort of self obsessed, right right, So he kind of, yeah, 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:21.440 he took it into a bit of a condition, a 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:26.840 personality type. You could say, I think it's yeah, Um, 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:29.399 we should do I don't know Havelock Ellis had anything 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:31.359 to do with it, but you know, so like Graham 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:34.760 crackers were invented to prevent people from masturbating so much, 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:38.119 how does that work? It was just totally made up, 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:40.200 but it was this part of um, like that whole 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:42.360 Road to Wellville kind of thing to you you ever see 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:44.800 that movie with Anthony Hopkins. I know the movie. I 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:47.440 never saw it. Same here, I never saw it either. 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:49.760 We should watch it together, all right, But um, we 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:52.119 should also do a whole podcast on that whole that 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:59.000 late nineteenth century like nutrition for like life improvement. Okay, 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:04.080 we're gonna do that episod. So after Havelock Ellison Auto Rank, 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:10.280 there was get this guy's name, Sigmund Freud. He comes 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:13.399 along after Rank, Uh, and I don't think that was 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:15.440 the first time. I feel like I've seen their names 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:19.040 together before in plenty of other ways. Um, at the 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:21.960 very least they were contemporaries. Because three years after Rank said, 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:24.399 you know what, I think this narcissism thing goes beyond 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:28.800 people who engage in self abuse a little too often. Um, 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:32.160 Freud came along and he hit the nail on the head, 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:36.080 as I think, I think Freud's gonna be like a 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:40.359 religious icon in three or five or thousand years. I 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:42.480 really think so. I think this guy really got a 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:44.199 lot of stuff right in a lot of ways that 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:47.199 he he stopped getting credit for. And I think the 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:51.080 reason why is this chuck. He he has pigeonholed into 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:56.760 the compartment of psychology, where I think he was a psychoanalyst. 0:18:56.800 --> 0:18:59.760 He was a psychologist, but I think more than anything, 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:04.080 he was one of the great thinkers who's ever lived. 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:08.080 And I think the idea that you're approaching everything at 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:11.199 him or everything he's ever said, from the idea that 0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:13.840 this is a psychologist saying this, rather than this is 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:16.080 a great thinker who can think or talk about anything 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:19.960 has said it kind of makes you makes people miss 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.680 the mark a little bit on him. If he had 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:27.160 been noted more for his philosophy, then yeah, his psychology. 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:29.040 The Yeah, I think, I think you'd have a lot 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:31.840 more credibility in the world. Well, he came along and 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:34.240 in terms of narcissism said, you know what, I think, 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:38.600 not only is it psycho sexual in nature, but I 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:42.080 think everybody goes through this phase at some point. But 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:44.960 you are only a true narcissist if you don't progress 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:48.760 past that phase. Basically yep. And that's kind of still today. 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:51.800 So that was what nineteen fourteen when he came up 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:55.840 with that theory. That's basically still pretty well established, so 0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:58.960 much so that it's it's not even attributed to Freud anymore. 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:02.240 It's just like, yeah, that's human nature. You as you age, 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:05.680 you enter into a period of self love that that 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:08.800 you would basically call a narcissistic phase, and then as 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:11.399 you get a little older and mellow out, you start 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.399 to turn your love towards other people in the world 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:19.840 in general, and that's part of a natural personality development. Yeah, 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:23.800 but it's still It took a psychoanalyst name Robert Velte 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:29.800 who finally said, this is an actual um, an actual 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:35.800 personality type, right, that we should study. And then William 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:41.119 Wilhelm excuse me, vill Helm Reich parenthetical three Austrians in 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:44.679 a row with the next exclamation point. Uh. So he 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:48.439 came along and said that, well, first of all, narcissists 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:53.000 are almost always men um and the thinking on that 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:58.480 is not true anymore, although I still think usually men 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:01.600 are thought up to be narcissist. Yeah, it's typically considered 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:06.639 a male dominated condition, right yeah. Uh and he basically 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:09.920 he he kind of put in words that link between 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:15.199 masculinity and this narcissistic aggression that kind of can come 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:18.439 along with being a narcissist, right, he said, it's dude. 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:23.400 That was his big contribution. So then the along came 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:29.080 a woman, a German psychoanalyst named Karen Horney. Go ahead, parenthetical. 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:33.119 Finally a woman and yes that's her real name too, Okay, 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:37.399 thank you, chuck um. And in nine Karen Horney should 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:40.960 we say the parenthetical every time we say her name? No, No, 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:44.879 it's probably a bad idea. So Karen Horney came along 0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:47.600 in nine and she's like, all right, everybody shut up, 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:51.200 I've got this figured out. This article misses it. So 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:56.440 she had she had this idea that, um, people have insecurities, 0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:59.040 and there are different personality types that deal with their 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:03.720 their in the ccurities and with the expansive personality type, 0:22:04.040 --> 0:22:07.439 there were three sub types that dealt with their insecurities, 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:12.399 and one of those was the narcissist. So narcissism was 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:15.840 one way that some people deal with their insecurities, according 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:19.280 to her, So she um, she kind of I guess 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:23.200 her big contribution to it was too to point out 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:27.760 that narcissism is a defense mechanism. That that was, which 0:22:27.840 --> 0:22:30.639 is a pretty significant breakthrough actually when you know, it 0:22:30.640 --> 0:22:33.840 went from it's people who masturbate too much to actually 0:22:33.920 --> 0:22:36.600 it's mostly guys and no, it's it's just a development stage, 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:38.359 to wait a minute, wait a minute, this is a 0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:43.000 this is a this is how some people reflexively deal 0:22:43.119 --> 0:22:46.040 with the fact that they don't feel like they measure 0:22:46.119 --> 0:22:49.840 up deep down inside, which is kind of mind blowing 0:22:50.560 --> 0:22:52.919 thing to do, especially if you're not aware of it. 0:22:52.960 --> 0:22:55.520 Like it's not like something happens to you when you're 0:22:55.560 --> 0:22:57.760 a kid and you go, you know what, when I 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:00.919 grow up, I'm gonna remember all this. But the way 0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:03.880 I'm going to deal with it is to be totally 0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:07.120 arrogant and pretend like I think that I'm the greatest 0:23:07.160 --> 0:23:10.080 thing that ever happened. You just watch now. I'm gonna 0:23:10.080 --> 0:23:14.200 wait twelve fifteen years and let the clock start taking now. Yeah, 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:17.080 So that was late nineteen thirties, and then um, the 0:23:17.119 --> 0:23:20.120 next big breakthrough came in nineteen sixty with Annie Reich, 0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:23.880 who was Phil Helms wife, has just pointed out parenthetically, 0:23:24.320 --> 0:23:27.800 actually that one's sort of legit, although he could have 0:23:27.840 --> 0:23:32.119 just used comments. Sure, you know, all these parentheses are 0:23:32.200 --> 0:23:36.000 driving nuts. But this was a big breakthrough because she says, 0:23:36.040 --> 0:23:39.360 you know what, not only are people UM very vulnerable 0:23:39.400 --> 0:23:42.720 who are narcissists, but I think it comes that vulnerability 0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:46.080 might come from traumatic experience that they suffered when they 0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:49.800 were younger. Yeah, and the original source that's still like 0:23:49.920 --> 0:23:52.800 kind of a thought about things, not necessarily a trauma, 0:23:52.880 --> 0:23:58.320 but a lot of UM psychologists point to parents as 0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:01.640 as potentially the source for it, which we'll talk more 0:24:01.640 --> 0:24:04.320 about later. Yeah. And she also had the idea that 0:24:04.480 --> 0:24:07.879 UM narcissist there is no sort of middle ground. They 0:24:07.880 --> 0:24:12.199 can't suffer ambiguity. And it's basically I'm either totally successful 0:24:12.600 --> 0:24:15.320 or I'm a big failure, right, which means that they 0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:19.200 can't they can't handle criticism, which is a huge hallmark 0:24:19.320 --> 0:24:23.600 of the narcissistic personality disorder. Right. So there's another guy 0:24:23.600 --> 0:24:25.159