1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: Hey, before we get started, everyone, this is Chuck and 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: I am going to be doing my first ever Facebook 3 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:09,159 Speaker 1: live tomorrow at three pm Eastern. I'm very excited about this. 4 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be talking about movie Crush. So if you're 5 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: a fan of that show, come by talk to me. 6 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: If you've got stuff you should know, questions, come by 7 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: talk to me tomorrow Wednesday afternoon, three pm Eastern, that's 8 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: noon Pacific. I'm gonna be live in front of your faces. 9 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: So come one, come all, can't wait to talk to everybody. 10 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know from how stuff Works 11 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, 12 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and Noel is with 13 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: us again today. No guest producer, Noel. That's right. So 14 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,959 Speaker 1: this Chuck stuff you should know. I'm gonna start whispering 15 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: every few lines. You know what we should do? What 16 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: we so everybody knows a lot of people know some 17 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: people know a lot of people listen to stuff you 18 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: should know to fall asleep. Well, actually they're probably not 19 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: asleep yet. We should wait a few minutes to do this. 20 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,559 Speaker 1: Are you're gonna say start screaming every ten minutes or 21 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: nothing like that. We'll just start telling them things and 22 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: they're sleep to tell other people later, like subliminal stuff. 23 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: Oh like subscribe to movie Crush. Yeah, that's a good one. 24 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: Send us a dollar Yeah, why not make it too. 25 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: They have two dollar bills, you know, so, um, all right, 26 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: well that we'll do that later. We'll insort a movie 27 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: Crush subliminal message later for the people who are sleeping. 28 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: Did you ever get two dollar bills? His gifts from 29 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: wacky relatives? Yep. That they'd hand you that card with 30 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: a two dollar bill and they're flapping. Dickie would roll 31 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: up to their cheek and they'd say, here's something that 32 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: you shouldn't spend. Like great, thanks for nothing. Yeah, I 33 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: know it was. It was weird. They're almost like works 34 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: of art, but novelty like X ray specs or something 35 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: like that. Yea, we should we should do it stuff 36 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,799 Speaker 1: you should know. Short episode on the two dollar bill 37 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: do we have those? No? Okay with that, the the 38 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: inaugural one. Yeah, SYSK shorts okay, like six minute episodes 39 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: like the old days. Okay, we'll get back to that. 40 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: I'll save us a lot of time every week if 41 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: we do those or maybe yeah, we should just do 42 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: those and not the deep dives that we've become known for. 43 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: Over the best in years and kiss our careers, goodbye, 44 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: goodbye careers, Thank you for coming. So narcissism, Oh, let's 45 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: let's get to it. Let's get serious. How do you 46 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: feel about all this? Um? So anytime, Chuck, when you 47 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: and I are researching one of these things separately, of course, 48 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: But when we're researching these, I'm always going, like the 49 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: mental health ones, I'm always like, um, is this me? 50 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: Is this describing me? And sometimes they do, you know? 51 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 1: And this one is is no exception. There are certainly 52 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 1: some parts to it, but as we'll see later, I 53 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 1: fall toward more toward one end of the spectrum than another. 54 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: But either way, I would not say that I'm clinical 55 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: in any sense of the word. As a narcissist, I'm 56 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: pretty sure. So yeah, how about you. Did you sit 57 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: there and think about me while you're researching this too? 58 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: It sounds like a narcissistic statement. Uh No, I didn't. 59 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: I didn't think about myself. If that's what you were 60 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: really asking, it was because I think I'm probably the 61 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: opposite of a narcissist. So you just walk around thinking 62 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: like I'm just not good enough all the time. No, because, 63 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: as we will learn, many narcissists at their core think 64 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: that deep down. Well, yeah, that's actually supposed to be 65 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: one of the defining traits of narcissism, which is kind 66 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: of surprising for people who don't know about it, because 67 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: when you think narcissists, you think just a complete conceited 68 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: jackass who's just totally self involved and couldn't care less 69 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: about you and your family and the fact that you've 70 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: got like a whole being worn in the one sweater 71 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: you will. They don't care about that. They just want 72 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: to push you around and take your pocket change. That's 73 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: a narcissist. And yeah, I have had a lot of 74 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: experience with narcissists in my life though, so I have 75 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,119 Speaker 1: a a lot to say about it. Probably won't say 76 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: much of it because of protecting the innocent. You could 77 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: use like pseudonyms like um, like I know this narcissist, 78 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 1: I've worked with him for a decade. His name is 79 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: squash Park. That would work. I think that would protect people. Yeah, 80 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: I think my definition of narcissism after reading this especially too, 81 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: is uh, it's probably less clinical and more experiential for me, 82 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: which is basically just a general, singular point of view 83 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: that is only from that person's eyeballs, like an an 84 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: inability to like see anything from anyone else's point of 85 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 1: view other than their own, and not even recognizing that 86 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: that's happening. Well, I yeah, I think that's kind of 87 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: part of it too, is is you're so sure you're 88 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 1: right and and just so confident in your own answers 89 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: and thoughts and beliefs that that it would be basically 90 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: impossible to see anyone else's perspective. So whatever the opposite, 91 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: I have a clinical problem with putting myself in other 92 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: places too much, to a debilitating degree. Probably, Yeah, am 93 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:26,559 Speaker 1: I putting that person out? Am? I? Oh my gosh? 94 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: Did I get in that person's way? Did I do 95 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: something to upset someone? I wonder if that compliment I 96 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 1: gave the checkout clerk of the grocery store was nice enough? 97 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: Is that what you do? No? Not really? All right. 98 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: I think you're just fairly emotionally stable, and your personality 99 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: is pretty stable too. I don't think you have a 100 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 1: lot to worry about either way. Well, maybe not that 101 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: small realm of my life, but no, I mean personality 102 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,119 Speaker 1: was you got a pretty pretty good solid personality, Chuck. 103 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: I appreciate that, yeah, man. And and you know, one 104 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: of the things that stuck out to me when I 105 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: was researching this is this is pretty much a persistent 106 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: theme with psychology. Is psychology is the study of how 107 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 1: you're failing to fit into society in a good way, 108 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: you know, like that's the whole point of it, because 109 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: we've assigned psychology this this um role of determining what's normal, 110 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 1: who's normal, who's not, and then hopefully treating the people 111 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 1: who aren't normal. But really that's that that definition of 112 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: normalcy comes down to. We all live in society and 113 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: either you've you fit in pretty well or you don't 114 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: fit in, and there's you know, a spectrum in between. 115 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 1: And that's what psychology does, is look at all the 116 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: different ways people have trouble fitting in in a peaceful, quiet, 117 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: uh socially acceptable manner, and this is this is one 118 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: of them. This is one of the most prominent ones. 119 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: And one of the reasons it is so prominent is 120 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: because narcissism um, the word itself, has almost lost entire 121 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: early it's clinical meaning because it's been so thoroughly hijacked 122 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: by pop culture, which has been fostered, I have to say, 123 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: by some psychologists in the field who who you know, 124 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: used pop culture to point to the idea that narcissism 125 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: is on the rise or whatever. So it's it's almost 126 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: just completely lost its meaning. Um, And there's a lot 127 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: of questions about, you know, how meaningful is a diagnosis 128 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: of narcissism these days. Um, it seems like there is 129 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: still some agreement that there is what you would consider 130 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: a personality disorder right called narcissistic personality disorder, and that 131 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: it's exceedingly rare. I saw something like two thousand people 132 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: in the United States probably have it. That's really rare, 133 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: but that there is possibly such a thing as a 134 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: trait that a person can have which you would call narcissism, 135 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: which if you're saying all that person is so narcissistic, 136 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: that's what you would be referring to, and you could 137 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: conceivably call at a subclinical level of narcissism. But that's 138 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: increasingly coming into greater and greater question. Yeah, Like to me, 139 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: I think it fully exists on a spectrum, and we'll 140 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: get to all this because other people feel like uh, 141 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: scientists feel like it does as well. But um, that's 142 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: for that's for later in the episode. Well, let's let's 143 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: do something really radically weird, and let's actually start by 144 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: defining narcissism. Actually, let's do something even weirder, chalk. Let's 145 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: start with a nice little dollarp of mythology. Okay, you 146 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: want to sure the story of Narcissus, which you're laughing at. 147 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 1: It's like to too. So what do you say narcissist? Oh? Interesting, 148 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: I have You're not the first person to say it 149 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: like that, though, I have heard narcissus, and I think 150 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: it's usually British people who say it like that. See, 151 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 1: I might be getting it from the Indigo Girl song. 152 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: Did that? I don't remember that one? Which one? Uh? 153 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: Can you sing a little bit uh hammer and a nail? 154 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: I think, yes, I don't know the narcis There's a 155 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: line where they say I look a lot like Narcissus. Huh, yeah, 156 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: that's probably where you got it. Then, I mean, I'm 157 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: sure that's where I got it, and probably had never 158 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: heard anyone say it before. Emily sailors Man, that's I 159 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: don't know, all right, so Narcissus was in the in 160 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: the myth was a apparently he was a boy that 161 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: was so beautiful and so good looking. And this is 162 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: how these myths go. They're always kind of, you know, 163 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: little hokey, uh like, this is the child that is 164 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: so good looking that they will just destroy their lives 165 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: in the world with their good looks. And so a 166 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: prophet name Teresius. Does that? Does that sound right? Okay? Yeah, 167 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: I have no issues with that, all right, said to 168 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 1: said to the parents, prince, you better make sure this 169 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: kid Narcissus never sees himself because it's gonna be big trouble. 170 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: And do you think he's bad? Now? Wait until so 171 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: the parents are like, all right, I got you. No 172 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: mirrors in the house, no uh, no shiny brass babbles, 173 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: no stainless steel refrigerator, no windows, no nothing in our 174 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: house that's reflective because we gotta keep our son from 175 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: seeing himself. Yeah. And so I guess they were pretty 176 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: successful for a while for basically the kid's whole life. 177 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: And as Narcissus or narcissist men, you've got me going now. Um. 178 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 1: As he grew older, he was clearly aware of his looks, 179 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: because he he would anybody who fell for him. He'd 180 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 1: be like, yeah, you're you're great, but you're not good 181 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: enough for me. I'm sorry. Um, takeoff, hoser, was his 182 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: famous line. And so all the hosers would take off 183 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: and cry and cry and cry, And so he knew 184 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: he was good looking, but he still hadn't seen himself. 185 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: And um, one of the hosers that he told to 186 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: take off was a I think a wood nymph, right, 187 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: wasn't she? Or she was some sort Yeah, she was 188 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:17,199 Speaker 1: a nymph named Echo, and Echo was just had it 189 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: about as bad for narcissust as as a nymph could 190 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: possibly have it for a good looking boy. And she said, 191 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,199 Speaker 1: I'm so sad. I'm just going to just lie here 192 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: and cry. And she cried and cried and cried so 193 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: much so that she became nothing more than her own voice, 194 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: which you can still hear if you shout into the 195 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: in the mountains, and that's where the echo comes from. 196 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,839 Speaker 1: So he went on along this path, kind of leaving 197 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: a trail of of ladies in his wake, uh, helplessly 198 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: heartbroken until finally, and he should have known this was 199 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: coming because her name of this Goddess was Nemesis right, 200 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: so you should have been steered clear there. But he 201 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: only wrong to Nemesis and broke her heart. And she 202 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 1: was like, well, you know what, my name is Nemesis 203 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: for a reason, and uh, I'm gonna punish you, sir. 204 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: Uh here, walk with me to this pool and look 205 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,839 Speaker 1: down upon yourself, or maybe you're a little bit thirsty. 206 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: So he went down to get some water and he 207 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: was like, hellay, look at that fella. And he was 208 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: in love with himself. Yeah, he fell head over heels 209 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: in love with himself. But there's a couple of problems 210 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: with this. This this whole story would have gone totally different. 211 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: Had Narcissis been like, I'm in love with myself, I'm 212 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: going to take that self love and turn it into 213 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 1: something really great and share that with the world. Right, 214 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: it's going to be self confidence and productivity. I'm gonna 215 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: fit into society just perfectly. But that's not what happened 216 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: because it was a superficial love. He was in love 217 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 1: with how he looked, right. The problem with that is 218 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: is he could never have himself. It takes a mate, 219 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: another person. It's another big thing in society too, Right, 220 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: you gotta couple up right, Um. So he was doomed 221 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: forever to have an unrequited love for himself, and so 222 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: since the closest he could get was his reflection, he 223 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: just stayed by that pool forever and ever and ever 224 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: look at him and turned into a flower, the narcissist flower. Yeah, 225 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:21,959 Speaker 1: a John Queel flower. Yeah. They're very pretty. It's like 226 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: a daffodil, a nice daffodil. Yeah. So that's the story 227 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: of where it came from. And uh, well, now we 228 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 1: should define it because you promise that so that that 229 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: story is pretty old. I think it's Greek at least, 230 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: if not maybe even older than that. UM. But in 231 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century the Victorians realized that this is a 232 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: pretty good, pretty good allegory for a certain type of person. 233 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: And these type of people today now we know. I 234 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: guess the classical definition of a of a narcissist or 235 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: a clinical clinical narcissist is basically somebody who's sense of 236 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: self importance UM, and a sense of entitlement that arises 237 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: from that sense of self importance is so great and 238 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: so ridiculously over exaggerated and so in a lot of 239 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: ways unfounded that UM it leads to a lot of 240 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: harm in their life. They have a lot of trouble. 241 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: They there. It's usually pretty easy for them to make 242 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: new friendships, but they don't last very long. They have 243 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: trouble accepting criticism. They may lash out, they may be aggressive, 244 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: They're usually fairly extroverted. Again, this is the classical clinical 245 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: criteria for um for a narcissist um. And they apparently, 246 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: like you said before, are harboring at their base, a 247 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: real lack of genuine self esteem or a real lack 248 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: of genuine self love, and that that lack is so 249 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: deep and so profound that it's reflected conversely on the 250 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: outside as just utter and complete arrogance and disregard for 251 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: other people's feelings. Yes, that is the classical definition or 252 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: criteria for a narcissist. But as we'll learn, there's another. 253 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: There's actually two sides to that same narcissism coin. Yes, 254 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: so let's go back to some more of the history there. 255 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: Like you said, the Victorians, they were all into this, 256 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: you know, kind of burgeoning psychoanalysis labeling of things. And 257 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: in the late eighteen nineties there was a sexologist name 258 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: Havelock Ellis, and I really By the way, I hated 259 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: all these little parenthetical uh in this article on how 260 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: stuff works, it's these little parenthetical asides, little judgments that 261 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: this all they wrote, like Havelock Ellis, that's his real aim, 262 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: Like have Luck Ellis, that's a I mean, have a 263 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: lack is an interesting name, but it's not like unbelievable 264 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: in it. Can you believe this, folks? He sucked me. 265 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: He's not normal, and it gets worse. I'll point out 266 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: all three. Thank you, buddy, I'm glad I'm plodding for you. 267 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: Then well, what bugs you bugs me? Most likely? You 268 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: know what's what's great is is that's absolutely true. Like 269 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: when I'm researching I I can That's why I knew 270 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: you were thinking of me when when researching narcissism, because 271 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: I was thinking of myself too. Uh. So have Alack 272 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: Ellis said that if you masturbate a lot, then you're 273 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: sort of a narcissist or narcissist like yeah, and you're 274 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: making the saints cry that's right. Uh. And then others 275 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: came along he said, yeah, this is this is a thing. 276 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: In the early nineteen hundreds, like a nineteen eleven there 277 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: was another analyst name Otto Rank, who said a no 278 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: snarky comment about that name, um put out a paper 279 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: that he's he really kind of dug into narcissism and 280 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: went beyond the just sexual nature of Havelock Ellis and said, 281 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: this is just a more generalized definition of someone who 282 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: is sort of self obsessed, right right, So he kind of, yeah, 283 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 1: he took it into a bit of a condition, a 284 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: personality type. You could say, I think it's yeah, Um, 285 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 1: we should do I don't know Havelock Ellis had anything 286 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 1: to do with it, but you know, so like Graham 287 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: crackers were invented to prevent people from masturbating so much, 288 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 1: how does that work? It was just totally made up, 289 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: but it was this part of um, like that whole 290 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,360 Speaker 1: Road to Wellville kind of thing to you you ever see 291 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: that movie with Anthony Hopkins. I know the movie. I 292 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 1: never saw it. Same here, I never saw it either. 293 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: We should watch it together, all right, But um, we 294 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: should also do a whole podcast on that whole that 295 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: late nineteenth century like nutrition for like life improvement. Okay, 296 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: we're gonna do that episod. So after Havelock Ellison Auto Rank, 297 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: there was get this guy's name, Sigmund Freud. He comes 298 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 1: along after Rank, Uh, and I don't think that was 299 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 1: the first time. I feel like I've seen their names 300 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: together before in plenty of other ways. Um, at the 301 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: very least they were contemporaries. Because three years after Rank said, 302 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 1: you know what, I think this narcissism thing goes beyond 303 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: people who engage in self abuse a little too often. Um, 304 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 1: Freud came along and he hit the nail on the head, 305 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: as I think, I think Freud's gonna be like a 306 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 1: religious icon in three or five or thousand years. I 307 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: really think so. I think this guy really got a 308 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,199 Speaker 1: lot of stuff right in a lot of ways that 309 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,199 Speaker 1: he he stopped getting credit for. And I think the 310 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: reason why is this chuck. He he has pigeonholed into 311 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: the compartment of psychology, where I think he was a psychoanalyst. 312 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: He was a psychologist, but I think more than anything, 313 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: he was one of the great thinkers who's ever lived. 314 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: And I think the idea that you're approaching everything at 315 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,199 Speaker 1: him or everything he's ever said, from the idea that 316 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: this is a psychologist saying this, rather than this is 317 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: a great thinker who can think or talk about anything 318 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: has said it kind of makes you makes people miss 319 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 1: the mark a little bit on him. If he had 320 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: been noted more for his philosophy, then yeah, his psychology. 321 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: The Yeah, I think, I think you'd have a lot 322 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: more credibility in the world. Well, he came along and 323 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: in terms of narcissism said, you know what, I think, 324 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: not only is it psycho sexual in nature, but I 325 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: think everybody goes through this phase at some point. But 326 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: you are only a true narcissist if you don't progress 327 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: past that phase. Basically yep. And that's kind of still today. 328 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: So that was what nineteen fourteen when he came up 329 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: with that theory. That's basically still pretty well established, so 330 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: much so that it's it's not even attributed to Freud anymore. 331 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: It's just like, yeah, that's human nature. You as you age, 332 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 1: you enter into a period of self love that that 333 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: you would basically call a narcissistic phase, and then as 334 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: you get a little older and mellow out, you start 335 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: to turn your love towards other people in the world 336 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: in general, and that's part of a natural personality development. Yeah, 337 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: but it's still It took a psychoanalyst name Robert Velte 338 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: who finally said, this is an actual um, an actual 339 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: personality type, right, that we should study. And then William 340 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 1: Wilhelm excuse me, vill Helm Reich parenthetical three Austrians in 341 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 1: a row with the next exclamation point. Uh. So he 342 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 1: came along and said that, well, first of all, narcissists 343 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: are almost always men um and the thinking on that 344 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: is not true anymore, although I still think usually men 345 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: are thought up to be narcissist. Yeah, it's typically considered 346 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: a male dominated condition, right yeah. Uh and he basically 347 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 1: he he kind of put in words that link between 348 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:15,199 Speaker 1: masculinity and this narcissistic aggression that kind of can come 349 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,439 Speaker 1: along with being a narcissist, right, he said, it's dude. 350 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 1: That was his big contribution. So then the along came 351 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: a woman, a German psychoanalyst named Karen Horney. Go ahead, parenthetical. 352 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 1: Finally a woman and yes that's her real name too, Okay, 353 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 1: thank you, chuck um. And in nine Karen Horney should 354 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: we say the parenthetical every time we say her name? No, No, 355 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: it's probably a bad idea. So Karen Horney came along 356 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: in nine and she's like, all right, everybody shut up, 357 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: I've got this figured out. This article misses it. So 358 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 1: she had she had this idea that, um, people have insecurities, 359 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: and there are different personality types that deal with their 360 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: their in the ccurities and with the expansive personality type, 361 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 1: there were three sub types that dealt with their insecurities, 362 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 1: and one of those was the narcissist. So narcissism was 363 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: one way that some people deal with their insecurities, according 364 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: to her, So she um, she kind of I guess 365 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: her big contribution to it was too to point out 366 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: that narcissism is a defense mechanism. That that was, which 367 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,639 Speaker 1: is a pretty significant breakthrough actually when you know, it 368 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: went from it's people who masturbate too much to actually 369 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: it's mostly guys and no, it's it's just a development stage, 370 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: to wait a minute, wait a minute, this is a 371 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: this is a this is how some people reflexively deal 372 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: with the fact that they don't feel like they measure 373 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: up deep down inside, which is kind of mind blowing 374 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 1: thing to do, especially if you're not aware of it. 375 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: Like it's not like something happens to you when you're 376 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: a kid and you go, you know what, when I 377 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 1: grow up, I'm gonna remember all this. But the way 378 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to deal with it is to be totally 379 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,120 Speaker 1: arrogant and pretend like I think that I'm the greatest 380 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: thing that ever happened. You just watch now. I'm gonna 381 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: wait twelve fifteen years and let the clock start taking now. Yeah, 382 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: So that was late nineteen thirties, and then um, the 383 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 1: next big breakthrough came in nineteen sixty with Annie Reich, 384 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 1: who was Phil Helms wife, has just pointed out parenthetically, 385 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: actually that one's sort of legit, although he could have 386 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:32,119 Speaker 1: just used comments. Sure, you know, all these parentheses are 387 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: driving nuts. But this was a big breakthrough because she says, 388 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,360 Speaker 1: you know what, not only are people UM very vulnerable 389 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: who are narcissists, but I think it comes that vulnerability 390 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: might come from traumatic experience that they suffered when they 391 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: were younger. Yeah, and the original source that's still like 392 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: kind of a thought about things, not necessarily a trauma, 393 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: but a lot of UM psychologists point to parents as 394 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,640 Speaker 1: as potentially the source for it, which we'll talk more 395 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: about later. Yeah. And she also had the idea that 396 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 1: UM narcissist there is no sort of middle ground. They 397 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:12,199 Speaker 1: can't suffer ambiguity. And it's basically I'm either totally successful 398 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: or I'm a big failure, right, which means that they 399 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 1: can't they can't handle criticism, which is a huge hallmark 400 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: of the narcissistic personality disorder. Right. So there's another guy 401 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 1: who didn't make it in this article but made a 402 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: huge contribution. Actually two of them. One was Henry Murray, 403 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,640 Speaker 1: and back in he noticed that there was something that 404 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 1: he termed a covert narcissist. Where most most people, when 405 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: you think of a narcissist, you think overt narcissists, like 406 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: people who are just completely, obviously publicly in love with themselves. 407 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: But Henry Murray said, no, there's another type I've noticed. 408 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: I'm gonna call him covert narcissists. And and they share 409 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: in common with overt narcissists this um conceit and arrogance, 410 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: and they value their own needs other other over other 411 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: people's needs. So at their core they are narcissistic, but 412 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: the way that their narcissism plays out publicly is basically 413 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 1: the opposite of a of an overt narcissist. Rather than 414 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: being brash and self assured and confident and cocky, they're 415 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: actually quiet. They're introverted. All of their psychodrama plays out 416 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: inside and they become anxious, they're very vulnerable, they get 417 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: very defensive and then back and then later on in 418 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: the nineties again named Paul Wink reclassified covert and over 419 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 1: into grandiosity, exhibitionism, and then vulnerability sensitivity. And the vulnerability 420 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:43,719 Speaker 1: sensitivity type of narcissists is basically, um, they're entitled, they 421 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:49,120 Speaker 1: feel entitled, but they're also like very bitter, right, Yeah, 422 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 1: it's a lot of anxiety, bitterness, Uh, defensive, Um, like 423 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: you said before, introverted. And then one of the keys 424 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 1: here I think is delusions of persecution and which can 425 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: also be tied into paranoia. So everyone's out to get me, 426 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: They're coming after me. Why is it always me? That 427 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: kind of thinking? So it's like constant, complete absorption in 428 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: the self. But rather than absorption in thinking about how 429 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: awesome you are, you're thinking about how everything like the 430 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: world's against you. But it's ultimately the two things that 431 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 1: they should that the type share in common is that 432 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 1: it all boils down to them. It's always about them 433 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 1: one way or another. Yeah, for sure. Um, And that 434 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: that was like incredibly insightful I think when you sent 435 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: that one over. Thank you, Thank you, buddy, I found that. 436 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:45,880 Speaker 1: I found that article you did. Yeah. Uh. And then finally, 437 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: finally in nineteen sixty eight, well actually uh, in six one, 438 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,439 Speaker 1: a man named John Ne Maya finally coined the term 439 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: narcissistic character disorder, and then finally in Night Heinz cohort 440 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: Um described it as narcissistic personality disorder. And then it 441 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: would be another twelve years before we finally make it 442 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: into the d s M as an actual diagnosed diagnostic description. Right, 443 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: I think that yeah edition the d s M three, Right, yeah, okay, 444 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: and chuck at this man. We are like twenty seven 445 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: minutes into this episode. We're about to take our first 446 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,880 Speaker 1: ad break. That's a new record. Yeah, so we'll we'll 447 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: be right back. We're gonna talk about me while you 448 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,120 Speaker 1: guys listen to these ads. But you can think about 449 00:27:36,160 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: me as s k okay man, So you said that 450 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: it finally made it into the d s M in 451 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: and it is a specified personality disorder one of I 452 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: don't remember how many there are, but um in the 453 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: d s M this last go round, which was two 454 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,880 Speaker 1: thousand and eleven, I think for the d s M five. Um, 455 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:21,879 Speaker 1: do you remember how the Press that got when they 456 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 1: when they were putting the d s M with the 457 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 1: actual UM term for his Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of 458 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: Mental Disorders, the American Psychological Association's Bible basically right where 459 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: every psychologist and psychiatrists in all the land has this thing, 460 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: and they're going through this saying, oh, this person has this, this, 461 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: and this, so they actually qualify for this, so I 462 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: can build insurance for this and and prescribe medication for this, 463 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: and it's all legit like they this is what the 464 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,479 Speaker 1: d s M does. It's the bible for psychologists. And 465 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: one of the there's a huge struggle UM in about 466 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: two thousand and ten two thousan and eleven between people 467 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: who said, Dude, these personality disorders are too they're too strict. 468 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: You you either have it or you don't. And people, 469 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: especially in terms of personality, just don't exist like that. 470 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: We exist on spectrums. There's different dimensions, and we've talked 471 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: about it before, I think in the Personality Inventory episode. 472 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: But the viewpoint that enjoys the widest appreciation these days 473 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: in the psychology community is the Big five traits, the 474 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: ocean or canoe traits like openness or um, openness to 475 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: new experiences or extra version, these kind of things. And 476 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: and when you take these different personality traits, you get 477 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: a clearer picture of people. And you can also take 478 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: those traits and basically apply them to dysfunction of personality, 479 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: and you can say, well, you've got these dysfunctions and 480 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: we need to work on this, rather than you've got 481 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: these five dysfunctions, which means you automatically qualify for narcissistic 482 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: personalities order. So narcissistic personality disorder and narcissism almost didn't 483 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: make it into the d s M five. But the 484 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: people who were struggling for the big five traits to 485 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: take over lost the battle, and and it stayed the same, 486 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: just the way it's been since night. And we'll we'll 487 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: talk about it more later. But there's a lot of 488 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 1: um questions about whether it's legitimate. But the criteria, if 489 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: you'll allow me, chuck, like the d s M S 490 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: criteria for narcissistic personality disorder are these You would have 491 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: to have a grandiose sense of self importance. It's pretty straightforward. 492 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: You're preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, 493 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,239 Speaker 1: or ideal love. What else you got that? Yes? Uh. 494 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: Number three believes that he or she is special and 495 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: unique and can only be understood by or should associate 496 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: with other special people. Yeah right Um. This kind of 497 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: like narcissists spurring all the hosers right right. Um. You 498 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: require excessive admiration, right um, which means that you, uh, 499 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: you want compliments, You fish for compliments, and flattery really 500 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: gets you places with a narcissist too. Yeah, you have 501 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: a high sense of entitlement. Um, you're interpersonally exploitive. This 502 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: is a big one. Number seven. You lack empathy either 503 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: you're not able to or you uh or you're not 504 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: willing to write. Um. And then you're often envious of 505 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: others or you think that other people are envious of you. Again, 506 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: this all kind of reverts back to you thinking about 507 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: how it's always about you, and that other people are 508 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: walking around thinking about you at any given point in time. Uh. 509 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: And then finally, uh, well you're arrogant and you're kind 510 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: of a jerk, right and there you go. You put 511 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: it together, and that's the that's the narcissist. And I 512 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: think maybe five of nine qualify for a definitive narcissistic 513 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: personality disorder UM diagnosis. Yeah, and the and what makes 514 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: a person a narcissist is sort of a conundrum at 515 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: this point. It's one of those things where and this 516 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: article kind of points it out in a good way 517 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: where nature and nurture are so mixed up, um, that 518 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: we don't really know what where what can make someone 519 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: a narcissist? Um. Certainly, probably or almost assuredly, it's a 520 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: little bit of both, um, probably, like most things. But um, 521 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: you could have parents that are and especially nowadays, I 522 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: know with parenting is is like your child is the 523 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: the unique snowflake, and you're the most special person on 524 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: the planet, and you were the most perfect little angel. 525 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: Kind of feeding a child that as they grow up, um, 526 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 1: which is a more recent parenting technique. Yes, get this man. 527 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: I read an article called how the self esteem Craze 528 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: took over America. Yeah, um, I posted it, you know 529 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: on my website are you serious Clark dot com? Um 530 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: that I do reading lists, which is just like cool 531 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: articles that I've read and it's on there. But they 532 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: they traced us back to one book that came out 533 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: called The Lovables in the Kingdom of Self Esteem a 534 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 1: children's book, and they they said that like this was 535 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: the sources thing took off and ended up in like 536 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: basically classroom curriculum, and it raised this whole generation to 537 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: have um more self esteem than any other generation has 538 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: been raised on before. Yeah, not to knock self esteem though, 539 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: I think I think though there is a general thought 540 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: among some people that it has crossed the line between 541 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: self esteem and entitlement. Yeah, there you go, so, I mean, 542 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: and that is a huge debate because a lot of 543 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: people on the other side say, actually, you're just being 544 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: a crotchety old person who's aging and losing touch with 545 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: what you know the world is doing these days. Um, yeah, 546 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: I think that's that's just fascinating me. But we'll talk 547 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: more about that later. But the parents are widely implicated 548 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 1: right as as possibly the source of this. Yeah. Like 549 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: Gene Twinge, she's one of the champions of um of narcissism. 550 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: She co wrote a book with another researcher from the 551 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: University of Georgia named W. Keith Campbell, and it was 552 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 1: called The Narcissism Epidemic, which became more than just a 553 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: book title. It was basically a term that made the 554 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: rounds from two thousand and eight to even today. You 555 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,800 Speaker 1: can find it. Uh. It seems to have hit the 556 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 1: high water mark back around two thousand and ten, eleven, twelve, 557 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 1: maybe UM, but they they created this avalanche of discussion 558 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 1: and press and talk and gene twine. One of the 559 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 1: one of her hallmarks is to find support for her 560 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: theory outside of the lab and more in pop culture. 561 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 1: So one of the ways that she's she suggested that 562 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 1: her theory is right, that narcissism is indeed on the 563 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: rise among millennials, is that UM children are given much 564 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 1: less common names than they were before. Yeah. I thought 565 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: that was interesting. Um, that whole thing where you name 566 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: your kid, uh apple Martini, and you're you're the only 567 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: one in the world named Apple Martini. There's an Appletini 568 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 1: in my class, but I'm Apple Martini, right. Uh, that 569 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 1: is what a special, um, special little child. You are right, 570 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,399 Speaker 1: there shall be no other Apple Martini. Yeah. I think 571 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: the stat they came up with was that in UM, 572 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: the eighteen eightiest of boys received one of the ten 573 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: most common names. Today fewer than ten percent too. Yeah, 574 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: I mean I thought that was a little hanky to say. Well, 575 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,280 Speaker 1: in the eighteen eighties, everyone was named Jack and John 576 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: and William. Right. It's just completely it's just that's anecdotal evidence. 577 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: It's basically that's trivia. That's not science. That's a trivia, 578 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: is what it is. And that's part of the problem 579 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 1: with all the so the idea that you can label 580 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 1: an entire generation as narcissist by saying narcissism is on 581 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 1: the rise, and then that in turn explains selfies and 582 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 1: Facebook to the older people that it's actually a deficiency 583 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: that these kids have. It's not me getting older, it's 584 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: the kids. And now it's being proven by science. That's 585 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 1: created this whole huge national conversation that's definitely taken narcissism 586 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 1: very very far out of um, out of the research realm, 587 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 1: and into just complete armchair pop psychology. Well here's some 588 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: more pop psychology for you from me, because I see, well, 589 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm not gonna make any judgment on 590 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 1: today's millennials and how narcissistic they are, but I think 591 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 1: that's that's fair. But I have seen narcissism, rampant narcissism 592 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 1: in our parents generation. Oh yeah, yeah, the whole um 593 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,320 Speaker 1: what what general what was that generation. M I guess 594 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: baby Boomers. Yeah, that's right, the Baby Boomers. They were 595 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,839 Speaker 1: just special in every single way, shape or form. Remember, Yeah, 596 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,319 Speaker 1: but that's the thing, like, uh I have I have 597 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: seen it firsthand, um with with that generation where but 598 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 1: it's it's not like, oh I'm into selfies and stuff 599 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: like that, like it manifests itself in a completely different way. 600 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,359 Speaker 1: Or I'll uh, I'll get on the phone with my 601 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 1: kid and talk for forty five minutes about myself without 602 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 1: once ever asking how they're doing. You know, So so 603 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 1: we should say here, yeah, this is the we're doing 604 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: the same thing to that older generation though that they're 605 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 1: doing to younger generations too, right you know. So maybe 606 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,319 Speaker 1: the point is narcissism isn't on the rise or on 607 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,840 Speaker 1: the decline at all. It's just always been there for 608 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,240 Speaker 1: a certain amount of people. Well there is a yes, Yes, 609 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,360 Speaker 1: there's a lot of evidence that that is absolutely true, Chuck. Like, 610 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 1: for example, there's there was a really large study like 611 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: thirty seven thousands something people, which were apparently a pretty 612 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: good representation of American adults. Right, so it's a it's 613 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: a good study population, and they asked them to self 614 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:18,720 Speaker 1: report the instances of narcissism that they've had throughout their life. 615 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: And they basically scored whether these people had experienced any 616 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: basically bouts of narcissistic personality disorder or some sort of 617 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:34,439 Speaker 1: clinical narcissism, right, And they found that the younger you were, 618 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: the more prone you were to have reported being narcissistic. 619 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: And so a lot of people point to that and say, see, 620 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: it's on the rise with the younger generation. The older 621 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,359 Speaker 1: generation wasn't like that, And the other people who are 622 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: critics of that say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. When you 623 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,719 Speaker 1: get older, one of the hallmarks of getting older is 624 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: completely forgetting all the stuff you went through to get 625 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 1: to that point in your life. Yeah, or how you 626 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 1: are currently, right, that's another way to put it, too. So, um, 627 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 1: there's a there's a big problem with the idea of 628 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: just having people self report whether they were narcissistic back 629 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,439 Speaker 1: in their lives. But people who do say, okay, even 630 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 1: if that was legitimate, they're they're forgetting. People are forgetting 631 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,720 Speaker 1: that everybody goes through a narcissistic phase in their life. 632 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: And then yes, if you if you go younger and 633 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: you start asking people about it while they're in their 634 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,320 Speaker 1: narcissistic phase. They're going to be more likely to report 635 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: it than people who have forgotten because their narcissistic phase 636 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 1: was decades ago. Right, um or the notion, and we'll 637 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: get into the treatment a little bit more with with 638 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 1: seeing a psychologist or a therapist, but one of the 639 00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:40,720 Speaker 1: hallmarks of a narcissist is to go to a therapist 640 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 1: for a little while, maybe for depression or something else 641 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 1: which can be co morbid, and they dig down and 642 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,320 Speaker 1: get to the root of it and they're like, actually, 643 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 1: you're a narcissist, and that's where all this stuff is 644 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: coming from. And that's when the narcissist goes, this is nuts. 645 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 1: I'm out of here, Like I'm not going to continue 646 00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 1: my therapy. You don't know what you're talking about, right, 647 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 1: which is a huge problem apparent if you are a 648 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,839 Speaker 1: narcissist and you do, you are one of the very 649 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 1: very few that end up in therapy. Um, you're there 650 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 1: for some other reason. You're not like, oh, I'm a narcissist, 651 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,040 Speaker 1: I need help. It's what's this weird anxiety I've got 652 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,480 Speaker 1: dealing with all the time? Or why am I depressed? 653 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,920 Speaker 1: Or you know why am I flying off the handle 654 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 1: at work? And HR sent me here? You know? Um? 655 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,839 Speaker 1: And so they will get to therapy, but even the 656 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 1: ones that do get there apparently tend to wash out 657 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:33,120 Speaker 1: pretty quickly because part and parcel with with therapy is 658 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:38,200 Speaker 1: accepting criticism or other perspectives that you you may have 659 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: some things to work on. And once you start hitting 660 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: that that segment of therapy, the narcissist is probably going 661 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,759 Speaker 1: to say, you're an idiot and I'm out of here. 662 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,280 Speaker 1: I can't be associating with you. You went to Yale, 663 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 1: not Harvard, right, And and like you said, surprising, Uh, 664 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:57,800 Speaker 1: it's surprising if they're in there to begin with, because 665 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 1: part of being a narcissist is, on one hand, or 666 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 1: at least in one kind of narcissist, is I got 667 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:06,560 Speaker 1: no problems. Why do I need to go to a therapist? 668 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 1: Everything is great. I don't give a grap what anyone 669 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:14,720 Speaker 1: thinks about me. It's all good, bro. Right, So there's 670 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: just some inherent problems with treating narcissism. I read a 671 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: really interesting article in the Harvard Business Review, and it 672 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:27,759 Speaker 1: was basically advice to mentors about how to mentor a narcissist, 673 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:29,600 Speaker 1: and it did a really good job of explaining like 674 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:31,720 Speaker 1: some of the problems that you will have at work 675 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: being a narcissist. Like on the one hand, and apparently 676 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: studies have found that narcissists tend to congregate or aggregate 677 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,400 Speaker 1: towards the top of the food chain or the bottom 678 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:47,319 Speaker 1: of the food chain in corporate organizations, which is interesting. Yeah, 679 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,480 Speaker 1: And I would guess that would mostly be whether it 680 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:54,600 Speaker 1: was covert or overt narcissists, I'm not sure, but um, 681 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, being a narcissist, your your 682 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:01,360 Speaker 1: your personality traits can be valued or prized at a company. 683 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,160 Speaker 1: You know, if you're in sales and you have limitless 684 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 1: confidence and if you get if you don't make a 685 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:08,920 Speaker 1: sale is because that guy was an idiot, not because 686 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 1: you know you didn't do a very good job. So 687 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,240 Speaker 1: you're just right onto the next guy to to sell 688 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,359 Speaker 1: to the next person. Like that's that's that's highly valuable. Right. 689 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 1: But eventually somebody's going to criticize you a cowork or 690 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,000 Speaker 1: something like that. It's gonna hit you the wrong way. 691 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 1: You're not gonna take it very well because you're gonna 692 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 1: know that they're right, But your response to that kind 693 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,880 Speaker 1: of thing is not to go chew it over process 694 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,600 Speaker 1: whether you actually agree with it, whether they're right or not. 695 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 1: And then if you decide that they are to to 696 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,279 Speaker 1: take that as advice and become a better person from it, 697 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,200 Speaker 1: that's not your m as as a person with narcissistic personality. 698 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,399 Speaker 1: This or you're gonna bite the other person's head off, 699 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:50,960 Speaker 1: you're gonna create a conflict at work that probably has 700 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 1: to be smoothed over by multiple parties, or maybe you'll 701 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,919 Speaker 1: end up fired or demoted or who knows. So. Um, 702 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,240 Speaker 1: it can go both ways, and it usually goes both ways. 703 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,000 Speaker 1: Within a career or a job for a person with 704 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,840 Speaker 1: clinical narcissism. Yeah, like you, to put it mildly, you 705 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:13,839 Speaker 1: you're lacking an interpersonal skills fort sure. Uh So, as 706 00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 1: far as the science behind it, there's um like the 707 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,240 Speaker 1: hard science, there's not a ton, but they did. Uh 708 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:23,319 Speaker 1: this one study I thought was pretty interesting. Um is 709 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:25,600 Speaker 1: they looked at people in the old m R I 710 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:30,680 Speaker 1: machine in Berlin, and they at least people that they 711 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:34,480 Speaker 1: thought had narcissistic personality disorder, and they found that the 712 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:40,319 Speaker 1: cerebral cortex of these people were significantly thinner than normal. Uh, 713 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,759 Speaker 1: and that's where we foster empathy. So there definitely could 714 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,720 Speaker 1: be something to that. Uh. And then that other study 715 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:48,680 Speaker 1: I thought was interesting was um, and this is kind 716 00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,360 Speaker 1: of along the lines of treatment, was they sat people 717 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:56,680 Speaker 1: down narcissist and showed them videos of what was the 718 00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:00,600 Speaker 1: videos of of just things going wrong with people said, documentaries? 719 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,840 Speaker 1: Yea sad documentaries. So my brother's keepers what they watched? 720 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:10,360 Speaker 1: Oh really? Okay, oh man, what's that one documentary The 721 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 1: saddest thing I've ever seen? Great Gardens, Thin Blue Line, Vernon, Florida. No, 722 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:22,120 Speaker 1: you're just naming documentaries now, Oh, I can't remember. It 723 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,280 Speaker 1: was the one about the It was the one about 724 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:31,960 Speaker 1: a murderer. It was just devastating. Remember, oh, Dear Zachary, 725 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 1: God man, holy cow, that was. I could barely get 726 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:39,879 Speaker 1: through that thing. Yeah. Yeah, it was as bad as 727 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:44,560 Speaker 1: it gets because it was real. Yeah, so, which most 728 00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:50,560 Speaker 1: documentaries are. So they showed Dear Zachary two people to narcissists, 729 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,320 Speaker 1: and they measure their heart rate and apparently the empathetic response, 730 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,279 Speaker 1: your heart rate will go up, and they were just flatlined, 731 00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:00,440 Speaker 1: well not flatlined, because but they were they were just 732 00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,759 Speaker 1: at their normal heart rate going and uh. Then they 733 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:07,279 Speaker 1: showed them, Uh, I don't know if it's the same one, 734 00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,560 Speaker 1: but they showed them another documentary where they just coached 735 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,279 Speaker 1: them and said, hey, what if this were you put 736 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,400 Speaker 1: yourself in their shoes, and all of a sudden they 737 00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,440 Speaker 1: they it changed and their heart rate increased. So the 738 00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:23,880 Speaker 1: question was like, is it that easy? Is merely suggesting 739 00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,040 Speaker 1: to a narcissist? Hey, why don't you think of it 740 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:29,759 Speaker 1: from another point of view? Like, so the question is 741 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,520 Speaker 1: are they unable or unwilling to do so? Well? I 742 00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,200 Speaker 1: think that's the case with anyone who lacks empathy, Like 743 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:39,440 Speaker 1: even in their psychopath episode, we talked about the potential 744 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:43,239 Speaker 1: ability for psychopaths to empathize. They just have to be 745 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:48,440 Speaker 1: told you should empathize now, and then you know, like 746 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,120 Speaker 1: it's just not an automatic thing for people who lack empathy. 747 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,799 Speaker 1: I think fake the empathy though, that's the difference, didn't it? 748 00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,960 Speaker 1: I don't remember. I think they were able to rationalize 749 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:05,759 Speaker 1: why they would be able to rationalize the outcome of empathy, like, oh, 750 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,080 Speaker 1: that person wouldn't want that to happen to them. I 751 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:12,400 Speaker 1: should probably stop rooting on the bad thing, right, um this, 752 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,720 Speaker 1: I guess this is a little different than that, Like, oh, okay, 753 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,560 Speaker 1: I'll turn on my empathy now, yeah, you're right. Should 754 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,080 Speaker 1: we take a break? Yeah, all right, Well let's take 755 00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:23,080 Speaker 1: a break and uh, well we'll talk a little bit 756 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:48,880 Speaker 1: more about narcissism after this, as what skuf you should know. Okay, 757 00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,920 Speaker 1: we're back chucking. As you promised, we're gonna talk a 758 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:56,600 Speaker 1: little more about narcissism. Uh. There was this one, um 759 00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:58,800 Speaker 1: thing I thought was fairly interesting in our own article 760 00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,759 Speaker 1: where we talked about evolutionary psychology. They did a two 761 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:06,920 Speaker 1: thousand four study with modeling techniques computer modeling where they 762 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,640 Speaker 1: looked at facial whether or not couples look like each 763 00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:13,640 Speaker 1: other when they hook up. So that conan O'Brien segment. 764 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:19,520 Speaker 1: What I don't remember two celebrities and putting together was 765 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,719 Speaker 1: rotten looking the kids, God, that was the best if 766 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:27,000 Speaker 1: they made it, or something like that. Um. So, what 767 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,719 Speaker 1: they did found was that they saw a correlation at 768 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,520 Speaker 1: least what they called a sort of mating assortative mating 769 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:39,719 Speaker 1: where basically you seek those who look like you, uh, 770 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:41,640 Speaker 1: which I thought was fairly interesting. And they thought that 771 00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:45,920 Speaker 1: could tie in a little bit with narcissism like like 772 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,000 Speaker 1: like maybe it has a biological basis, Yeah, exactly, And 773 00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,879 Speaker 1: that would actually tie into the idea that we hit 774 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:57,279 Speaker 1: our narcissistic peak during our like um reproductive years and 775 00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,719 Speaker 1: then it wanes as we age an age out of reproductativeness. Right, 776 00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,000 Speaker 1: so maybe it is kind of correlated to it. And 777 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,360 Speaker 1: then if you if your synapse is just fuse a 778 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:10,840 Speaker 1: little too much, you can become m narcissistic to a 779 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:14,239 Speaker 1: clinical degree. Who knows, no one, No one knows. That's 780 00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,600 Speaker 1: the point. So that's that's the problem with this field 781 00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:20,600 Speaker 1: of research is no one knows. But people are diagnosed 782 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:24,960 Speaker 1: with narcissistic personality disorder every day. Nobody can agree on 783 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:28,880 Speaker 1: the prevalence this. Our article says seven point seven percent 784 00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,680 Speaker 1: of men in the US four point eight percent of women. 785 00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,000 Speaker 1: That washes out to six point two percent average among 786 00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:38,959 Speaker 1: the genders. I saw one percent. UM. I also saw 787 00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,400 Speaker 1: two hundred thousand, which is way less than one percent 788 00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:45,040 Speaker 1: in the US. UM. No one has any idea what 789 00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,200 Speaker 1: the prevalence is and they're not sure why. There's a 790 00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:52,160 Speaker 1: couple of proposals for why. One is that UM. The 791 00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:57,040 Speaker 1: the narcissistic personality disorder criteria that we went over places 792 00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:01,239 Speaker 1: a lot of emphasis on that that over type of 793 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:06,880 Speaker 1: narcissist and undervalues the over there, the covert type. Right, 794 00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:10,239 Speaker 1: And so it's possible that there are way more narcissists 795 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:13,600 Speaker 1: out there than than would be caught by the NPD 796 00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:16,840 Speaker 1: criteria and the d S M right. Yeah, it's just 797 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:21,680 Speaker 1: so tough with personality disorders that to me clearly exists 798 00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:25,920 Speaker 1: on a spectrum to kind of pin down anything, you know, 799 00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,239 Speaker 1: like they have this, uh, they have the online test 800 00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:32,840 Speaker 1: you can take. I took it myself because I was curious. 801 00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:38,279 Speaker 1: I scored. I scored an eleven out of forty. Oh 802 00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,480 Speaker 1: that's not very narcissistic. No, I was a little disappointed. 803 00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,719 Speaker 1: I was hoping to be in the single digits. I 804 00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,200 Speaker 1: did not take the test. Oh yeah, I imagine you 805 00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:50,520 Speaker 1: were thinking about me when you took it, so I 806 00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:53,319 Speaker 1: just left it at that. Do you think I was 807 00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,359 Speaker 1: talking about you because I'm a narcissist now that you 808 00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,000 Speaker 1: were thinking about me while you were taking the test. No, 809 00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,040 Speaker 1: I didn't think about Yeah, I was answering for myself. 810 00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,080 Speaker 1: And eleven out of forty I thought was I can't remember? 811 00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,040 Speaker 1: I mean it broke it down. It showed averages and 812 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,880 Speaker 1: stuff like that. Uh, and then it showed you where 813 00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:16,279 Speaker 1: you were more likely or where you're subtraits. Uh, like 814 00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:19,000 Speaker 1: out of those eleven, like let's say seven of those 815 00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:22,880 Speaker 1: out of the eleven was a specific subtrait. UM. So 816 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:25,040 Speaker 1: that was sort of helpful. But I just looked at it. 817 00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:26,440 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, well, maybe I should work on 818 00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:30,560 Speaker 1: that stuff. Right, get get down into the single digits. Yeah, 819 00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,279 Speaker 1: you're gonna try to get your test score down. Check 820 00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:37,320 Speaker 1: it out, man, keep me posted, will you? Personal growth? Um, 821 00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:41,440 Speaker 1: there's a there's another inventory you can take. I'm trying 822 00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:45,920 Speaker 1: to find the name of it. Um. Which is it 823 00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:51,040 Speaker 1: kind of gets the covert type out in the open. Yeah, 824 00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:57,560 Speaker 1: it's called the um Maladaptive Covert Narcissism Scale. Uh So 825 00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:02,520 Speaker 1: there were forty questions on the mp D Personality Inventory. 826 00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:06,680 Speaker 1: Uh yeah. Um, this one's like twenty three and you 827 00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,839 Speaker 1: give it a score between one and five, whereas with 828 00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:15,160 Speaker 1: the Narcissistic Personality Inventory, it's like a you choose between 829 00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:19,120 Speaker 1: basically opposite pairs of statements, right, Yeah, I mean it 830 00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:22,120 Speaker 1: was a quite opposite. Sometimes they're a little trickier, and 831 00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:24,840 Speaker 1: there were some they repeated in different ways, or I'm like, 832 00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:27,439 Speaker 1: I see what you're doing there, right, You can't can't 833 00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:31,400 Speaker 1: use psychology on me. Yeah, but it was also, uh, 834 00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:33,520 Speaker 1: when I see things like this, I think, if you're 835 00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:37,160 Speaker 1: taking this and you know what it is, and you 836 00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,279 Speaker 1: are a narcissist, you were probably not gonna be very 837 00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,040 Speaker 1: honest either. That part of being the narcissist is like 838 00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:46,439 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not going to admit that. Oh yeah, 839 00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:49,160 Speaker 1: if it's a defense mechanism, you you wouldn't really be 840 00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:51,400 Speaker 1: capable of it, you know. Yeah, I thought it was interesting. 841 00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:54,680 Speaker 1: It would crumble your ego, that's right. Um. One of 842 00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:56,720 Speaker 1: the reasons why all of this is up for debate 843 00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:58,560 Speaker 1: still and why we're having so much fun with it 844 00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:04,239 Speaker 1: this afternoon, is because there's been no definitive study that 845 00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:09,600 Speaker 1: really looks at a true representative sample of say, teenagers 846 00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:16,480 Speaker 1: in America to determine a baseline to compare today's teams 847 00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:20,640 Speaker 1: up against. Right, there have been studies, so they're the 848 00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:23,680 Speaker 1: college kids all around the US have been given for 849 00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:27,600 Speaker 1: years and years and years now the narcissistic personality inventory, 850 00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:31,840 Speaker 1: and they're usually psychology students. UM. So that's usually a 851 00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,440 Speaker 1: select group from an already select group from the population, 852 00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:38,239 Speaker 1: which is college students, so you're not really looking at 853 00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:43,279 Speaker 1: it a representative sample of all teens in America at 854 00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:46,720 Speaker 1: the time, but from that select group of select group, 855 00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:54,000 Speaker 1: they've found that personality among some different colleges, personality narcissistic 856 00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:58,359 Speaker 1: personality traits apparently has risen by about two questions from 857 00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:02,680 Speaker 1: the late eighties till the mid two thousand's, And then 858 00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:04,759 Speaker 1: other people are like, no, no, no, that's all wrong. 859 00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:07,920 Speaker 1: First of all, you guys are you're comparing tests from 860 00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:12,080 Speaker 1: different colleges and different eras. That's terrible. What we need 861 00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,360 Speaker 1: is somebody to get together all of the teenagers in 862 00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:19,279 Speaker 1: America were a huge representative sample of them. Say just 863 00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:22,400 Speaker 1: give it out to all high schools in the United 864 00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:26,160 Speaker 1: States to take on one day and start that. Do 865 00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:28,880 Speaker 1: it now, and then start using that as your baseline 866 00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:31,279 Speaker 1: for twenty thirty years out. Then we can actually say 867 00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:35,160 Speaker 1: whether narcissism is increasing. Right, And the closest thing they've 868 00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:37,000 Speaker 1: got is that thing that they've been giving to high 869 00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:41,120 Speaker 1: school kids since the seventies. Um, it's great, it has 870 00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,399 Speaker 1: like this has the best. Um, the more you know 871 00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:50,359 Speaker 1: type name it's called monitoring the future. I love it. 872 00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:54,520 Speaker 1: That sounds like such a great US government test for 873 00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:58,040 Speaker 1: high school students, But it's from the National Institute on 874 00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:01,719 Speaker 1: Drug Abuse and UM. Apparently it's an annual survey of 875 00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:06,480 Speaker 1: fifty thousand high school students and it doesn't directly measure narcissism, 876 00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:11,360 Speaker 1: but it measures parts of a personality personality dimensions related 877 00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:16,440 Speaker 1: to it, right, like self esteem, egoism, individualism. And what 878 00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:23,080 Speaker 1: they found is that, um, self esteem, well, actually all 879 00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:26,960 Speaker 1: of those factors are basically exactly the same in two 880 00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:32,000 Speaker 1: thousands six as they were in nineteen. Interesting, So apparently 881 00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,400 Speaker 1: that would that would undermine the idea that narcissism is 882 00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,480 Speaker 1: on the rise. But if somebody tells you narcissism is 883 00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:41,200 Speaker 1: on the rise, next time they say that, you say, 884 00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:44,040 Speaker 1: how do you know? Tell him, Josh, there you go, 885 00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:46,560 Speaker 1: Uh well, yeah, I mean there are people that say, 886 00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:50,160 Speaker 1: like it's an epidemic and other because of social media 887 00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:56,040 Speaker 1: mainly and selfies and Instagram, and I just I don't know, man, 888 00:54:56,160 --> 00:55:00,960 Speaker 1: I don't I think that's something when um, like I've 889 00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:07,640 Speaker 1: seen people, uh, I've witnessed people taking selfies like like 890 00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:10,239 Speaker 1: a dozen of them trying to get it just right, 891 00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:13,919 Speaker 1: and making the face out and doing all that. Yeah, 892 00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:16,520 Speaker 1: it's not pretty to see, it's not And I see that, 893 00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:22,239 Speaker 1: and I think, is that narcissism or is that just um, 894 00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,319 Speaker 1: I don't know. To me, it's it's it's a it's 895 00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:28,439 Speaker 1: a personality trait that any and all of us have, 896 00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:32,520 Speaker 1: and under the right circumstances, it can be brought out 897 00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:35,920 Speaker 1: easier for some than others. But our society has changed 898 00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:38,759 Speaker 1: enough so that it is far more socially acceptable and 899 00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:42,239 Speaker 1: even socially encouraged through social media to do those kind 900 00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:46,680 Speaker 1: of things. Right. Yeah, I don't think that that necessarily 901 00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:50,719 Speaker 1: translates automatically to arise in narcissism. I think it's just 902 00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,360 Speaker 1: a change in society. Like some people are, like those 903 00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:56,840 Speaker 1: people have always been around, they're just more visible because 904 00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,440 Speaker 1: they're doing it at the public pool now or in 905 00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:03,040 Speaker 1: the bar, Whereas in the fifties they would have been 906 00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:05,520 Speaker 1: laughed out of that bar or out of that pool 907 00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:07,560 Speaker 1: had they done that, But they were still around. It 908 00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:10,920 Speaker 1: just wasn't socially acceptable for them to do stuff like that. Yeah, 909 00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:13,279 Speaker 1: And I guess I think I'm having a hard time 910 00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:15,680 Speaker 1: but into words, but I think I think that that 911 00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:18,600 Speaker 1: true narcissism is a lot deeper than that, and that 912 00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:22,080 Speaker 1: can just be like, Hey, I think I'm really hot 913 00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,600 Speaker 1: and I like to take pictures of myself, but but 914 00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:29,600 Speaker 1: maybe I'm also very empathetic and have great interpersonal skills 915 00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:32,960 Speaker 1: and I see other people's point of view a lot, 916 00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:35,960 Speaker 1: but I'm super stuck up. Like I don't think just 917 00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:38,600 Speaker 1: because you take a lot of selfies or you're obsessed 918 00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:41,640 Speaker 1: with social media means you're narcissistic. I think it goes 919 00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:44,080 Speaker 1: way Narcissism goes way deeper than that, and it's like 920 00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:47,719 Speaker 1: a a tunnel vision where you are only seeing things 921 00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:50,279 Speaker 1: from your own point of view. I mean that's part 922 00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:52,080 Speaker 1: of it. And then I think the other part of 923 00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:56,480 Speaker 1: it too is yeah, maybe millennials are UM do have 924 00:56:56,719 --> 00:57:01,360 Speaker 1: over inflated self esteem, or maybe they're this wonderful generation 925 00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:04,200 Speaker 1: that's actually really dedicated to changing the world for a 926 00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:08,840 Speaker 1: positive view. The problem is um when you start to 927 00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:12,600 Speaker 1: paint the whole generation with a single brush, and that's 928 00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:15,719 Speaker 1: that's been done with narcissism, which I think really undermines 929 00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:20,760 Speaker 1: the value of the term. So there's plenty more to 930 00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:24,000 Speaker 1: talk about if you want to learn more about narcissism. 931 00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,680 Speaker 1: You can just dive into the Internet and find out 932 00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:31,160 Speaker 1: what your local um blogger thinks about it, because they 933 00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:34,400 Speaker 1: guarantee you they've written about it. Uh. And since I 934 00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:38,640 Speaker 1: said that it's time for a listener mail, I'm gonna 935 00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:43,800 Speaker 1: call this one uh sad horny bunnies. This all makes 936 00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:45,560 Speaker 1: sense in a second. I have no idea what this one. 937 00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:48,040 Speaker 1: During the recent flu show, Guys You explained that it 938 00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:52,640 Speaker 1: was Iowa doc Richard Schope who first isolated the flu virus. 939 00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:55,560 Speaker 1: That was likely the achievement that made him famous, but 940 00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:57,920 Speaker 1: not the reason why my family knows of his work. 941 00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:01,240 Speaker 1: We live in the Twin Cities. Shout out to the 942 00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:06,320 Speaker 1: Twin Cities, where we've seen many rabbits with a horrifying disease. 943 00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,440 Speaker 1: It causes them to grow what appeared to be horns, 944 00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:11,960 Speaker 1: sometimes just one or two, occasionally half a dozen or more. 945 00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:14,000 Speaker 1: And though the gross are often right where an animal 946 00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:16,920 Speaker 1: would have horns, sometimes they sprout from near rabbit's mouth 947 00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:20,720 Speaker 1: or eyes, making survival pretty challenging. A few years ago, 948 00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:23,360 Speaker 1: when we investigated this creepy rabbit illness, we learned it 949 00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:26,600 Speaker 1: was Richard Chope who first isolated and identified the virus 950 00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:31,600 Speaker 1: that causes it, now called the Chope uh Papaloma virus SPV, 951 00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:35,160 Speaker 1: is similar to some papaloma viruses and humans, which can 952 00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:37,480 Speaker 1: lead to fund things like genital warts or cervical cancer. 953 00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:40,840 Speaker 1: In fact, thanks to the work of Shope, other researchers, 954 00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:44,240 Speaker 1: and these spooky looking rabbits, we have medical successes like 955 00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:47,360 Speaker 1: the HPV vaccine. Uh. It is not critical to my 956 00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:50,200 Speaker 1: life this information, but it certainly makes it more interesting. 957 00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:52,320 Speaker 1: And that's why I'm always listening to stuff you should know. 958 00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:55,760 Speaker 1: And that is from Jane uh Niemeyer in the Twin 959 00:58:55,800 --> 00:58:59,280 Speaker 1: Cities Nice and did you look it up? It did. 960 00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:05,120 Speaker 1: And if you want to see heartbreaking photos bunnies with 961 00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:08,560 Speaker 1: horns coming out of their face, just look up show 962 00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:14,360 Speaker 1: Papaloma virus rabbits. And it is so sad because there's 963 00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:17,360 Speaker 1: nothing cute or a planet almost at a bunny rabbit 964 00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:21,480 Speaker 1: and you see these things. He's like, man, what did 965 00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:26,040 Speaker 1: you do to deserve that's the worst? Well, thanks a lot. 966 00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:29,919 Speaker 1: What was the name of the author, Jane, Jane, Thanks 967 00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:32,560 Speaker 1: a lot, Jane, appreciate that. Thanks for bringing us down. 968 00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:34,960 Speaker 1: If you want to bring us down like Jane, did 969 00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:36,560 Speaker 1: you could tweet to us at s y s K 970 00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:39,320 Speaker 1: podcast through josh em Clark. You can hang out with 971 00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:41,680 Speaker 1: this on Facebook dot com slash stuff you Should Know 972 00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:44,480 Speaker 1: or slash Charles W. Chuck Bryant. You can send us 973 00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:47,600 Speaker 1: an email stuff podcast to how Stuff Works dot com 974 00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:49,840 Speaker 1: and as always, joined us at our home on the web, 975 00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:57,160 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know dot com. For more on this 976 00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:00,000 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Is that how stuff workstof 977 01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:00,240 Speaker 1: come