1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:02,440 Speaker 1: BBCD. 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 2: Hey, I'm Maggie. Just a quick heads up before we start. 3 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 2: The series does contain some descriptions of violence and deals 4 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 2: with adult themes. How many tattoos do you have a lot? 5 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 3: I have a physics equation tramp stamp. 6 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 4: I thought that would be funny, funny. I love a 7 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 4: physics tramp stapp. High brow lowbrow. 8 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 2: Is my love language, and that is the epitome of 9 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 2: hy braw lowbrow. 10 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 3: That would be kind of ironic. 11 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 2: So what's the physics equations? 12 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 3: The Dirac equation. It kind of brings like quantum physics 13 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 3: and relativity together. It just like explains everything, and it 14 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 3: kind of talks about like dark matter and I don't 15 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 3: know antimatter. I can't even remember. It's been so long. 16 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 2: I'm sitting next to Liz on her oversized, well loved 17 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 2: teal colored couch in London, nodding my head, pretending I 18 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 2: know exactly what the Dorac equation is. I have no 19 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 2: idea what the Dorac equation is. 20 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 5: I love. 21 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,119 Speaker 2: Liz starts to roll up her sleeve, showing me her 22 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 2: other tattoos, her mood changing as she does. 23 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 4: This is beautiful. 24 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 3: It's just got touched up. But most of this was 25 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 3: done by a Mexican toutoo artist, and it's hard to see. 26 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 2: Liz pivots her body further, lifting the fabric up and 27 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 2: revealing a kaleidoscope of colorful flowers inked on her arm. 28 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: So there was like a rose up here for their 29 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: last name. 30 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 2: She's now Liz Melgar Rose, taking the name Rose from 31 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 2: her husband Anthony. And there are others, each flower representing 32 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 2: a different member of her family. 33 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 6: And then these. 34 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 3: Are for my parents and stergazer Lily's. This is my 35 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 3: mom's birth flower. This is the sacred mind flower. 36 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 2: This one, yeah, a deep purple aster with its brilliant 37 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 2: yellow center. There's a violet a sunflower. 38 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 3: This is my daughter's birth flower. 39 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 4: My son's a chrysanthemum. 40 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 3: And the poppies are my dad's. And then this is 41 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 3: a simplest cheese or a miracle and those are used 42 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 3: young Day of the Dead. So that's like me wearing 43 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 3: my altar all the time. 44 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 2: Her tattoos her altar are not just devotions to her dad, 45 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 2: but to their shared my inheritage. Something she says, Jim 46 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 2: was deeply proud of having grown up in Guatemala. 47 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 3: When I was a kid, He was always trying to 48 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 3: teach me about our culture and tell me I should 49 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 3: be proud of where we've come from, and you know 50 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 3: that we've come from nothing and look at where we are. 51 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 3: And I really didn't appreciate it at the time. I 52 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 3: really didn't. I was just oh, my god, Okay, I 53 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 3: get it. I've heard the story a hundred times. 54 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 4: What would he tell you about living in Guatemala. 55 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 3: He would just talk about like the absolute poverty. He 56 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 3: would always tell me that, you know, you don't know 57 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 3: how good you have it or how lucky you are. 58 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 3: My grandmother she used to live in like straw and 59 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 3: mud houses that they would have to rebuild every year. 60 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 3: Her first language was a Mayan dialect called Kikichi, and 61 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 3: then she learned Spanish later on once she got older. 62 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 3: But they were very, very poor. So when I was six, 63 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 3: we went for six weeks and I remember that trip vividly. 64 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, tell me about it. 65 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, we get there and in the middle 66 00:03:59,960 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 3: of the courtyard there's like this shit and that's where 67 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 3: everyone showers. But you know, I was like, there's no 68 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 3: hot water. How am I going to take a bath? 69 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 3: So my grandma got like one of those metal clothes, 70 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:18,359 Speaker 3: washing bins, and heated hot water on the stove so 71 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 3: I could have a warm bath. And my dad said 72 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 3: that as soon as we got there, I said, there's 73 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 3: nothing cool to drink. I'm ready to go home. 74 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 2: I mean understandable. I think I would feel the same 75 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 2: way at age six. But as Liz gets older, her 76 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: interest in her indigenous roots continued to grow, and after 77 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 2: her dad's murder, that interest becomes a passion. 78 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 3: I guess I'm trying to get to know the culture 79 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 3: because I don't know. I guess it makes me feel 80 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 3: more connected to my dad and my family. 81 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 2: Liz is planning another test you to honor her kek 82 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 2: Chi spirit. 83 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 4: Do you know what you're going to get? Just a 84 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 4: red band on your wrist? 85 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 7: Yeah. 86 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 3: Cool. It's supposed to signify the blood that's been shed 87 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 3: from the genocide of the Mayan people. 88 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 2: A symbol to mark the oppression of the mind people, 89 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 2: which is no doubt an incredibly heavy thing to have 90 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 2: inked on your body. But this red band also symbolizes 91 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 2: a message of resilience and survival against acts of cruelty, 92 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 2: And if you've been through what Liz has, I can 93 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 2: see why this message would resonate so deeply. She's already 94 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 2: lost one parent, and to rewind back to the summer 95 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 2: of twenty fourteen, she feels like she's about to lose another. 96 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 2: It's been eighteen months since Jim's death. Liz is at 97 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 2: the new home she shares with her mom and husband, 98 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 2: a high of flyers from various lawyers in her hands, 99 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 2: all offering to represent Sandy. 100 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 4: I can't imagine what Liz is feeling. 101 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 2: She's trying to come to terms with the loss of 102 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 2: her dad and now this all while just becoming a 103 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 2: mother herself. 104 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 3: I just had my daughter, so I was kind of 105 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 3: all over the place. 106 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 2: Liz is likely sleep deprived adjusting to her new life 107 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 2: as a mom. Maybe this is all a mistake. Could 108 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 2: this really be happening. She keeps checking the records on 109 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 2: the district attorney's website. 110 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 3: Clearing the page and then searching for her name, like 111 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 3: this has to be a mistake, and like doing the 112 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 3: search a couple of different ways just to be sure 113 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 3: that I had the right information. 114 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 4: But it's no mistake. 115 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 2: Sandy had been indicted for Jim's murder, and right now 116 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 2: Liz is going to need every fiber of her keck 117 00:06:55,839 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 2: che Warrior Spirit to keep her mom out of jail. 118 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 2: I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and from BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts. 119 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 2: This is Hands Tied Episode five Warrior Spirit. Liz has 120 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 2: entered what feels like a parallel universe. Her mom is 121 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 2: no longer Sandy Melgar, but the defendant accused of first 122 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 2: degree murder and things are about to get even worse. 123 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 3: We all served to Houston together so that she could 124 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 3: turn herself in and be processed. My mom was in tears, 125 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 3: and she's never been rested before, She's never gotten in trouble. 126 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 3: I was terrifying for her. 127 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 2: At nine am on July twenty ninth, twenty fourteen, in Houston, Texas, 128 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 2: Sandy is arrested and the formal indictment is read out. 129 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 2: Sandra Melgar is accused of unlawfully, intentionally and knowingly causing 130 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 2: the death of I may by and I quote, stabbing 131 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 2: the complainant with the deadly weapon, namely a knife. Sandy 132 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 2: is granted bail. 133 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 3: You don't know what's going to happen. You don't know 134 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 3: how to prepare for that. There is no one you 135 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 3: can really talk to you because not everybody goes through that. 136 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 3: You know, it's very isolating, it's very it's it's hard. 137 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 2: I think we all have expectations of how justice moves 138 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 2: from what we've seen on movies or on TV. You're indicted, 139 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 2: then it's straight to court. But the truth is the 140 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 2: legal system often moves really slowly. 141 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 3: You're on hold, you can't do anything, You're just in 142 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 3: a holding pattern. 143 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 2: Weeks turn into months, months turn into years. 144 00:08:57,679 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 3: It never gets easier, but you learn to live with 145 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 3: it and you learn how did you know? Yeah, have 146 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:04,599 Speaker 3: it be part of your life. 147 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 2: In life, no matter how difficult March is. On the 148 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 2: following summer in twenty fifteen, Liz and her daughter move 149 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 2: out of Texas, thousands of miles away to Seattle after 150 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 2: her husband, Anthony, lands a job there. 151 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 3: I just tried to focus on my daughter really and 152 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 3: I just felt like I didn't have a bandwidth to 153 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 3: really deal with everything. I was just like, Okay, well 154 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 3: this is how it's going to go. Now, like one 155 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 3: foot in front of the other, what do we do? 156 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 2: Sandy stays in Houston but tries to see Liz and 157 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 2: her grandchild as often as she can. 158 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 3: We actually spent a lot of time together. She spent 159 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,559 Speaker 3: a lot of time with my daughter, and I think that. 160 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 5: Helped her a lot. 161 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 2: And sixteen, four years after Jim's death and two years 162 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 2: after Sandy's indictment, Liz is pregnant again. 163 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 3: And my son was born, and she came and helped. 164 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 3: She came and stayed with my daughter while I had 165 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 3: him in the hospital. 166 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 2: On the surface, Sandy's doing remarkably well. 167 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 3: My mom is really good at like compartmentalizing, I guess, 168 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 3: just pretending like that's not guess being in denial. I 169 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 3: don't know, I don't know what you want to call it. 170 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 3: But she's just good. I'm like, everything's fine. 171 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 4: But everything's not fine. And Liz can see right through. 172 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 3: It, obviously, like she was still under a ton of 173 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 3: stress and still trying to process everything that happened and 174 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 3: dealing with her own health not doing well, and stress 175 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 3: also makes things worse, both the lupas and the epilepsy. 176 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 3: So she struggled a lot. 177 00:10:58,679 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 4: And what about Liz. 178 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 2: She's filled with anxiety about the future. There might be 179 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 2: some people who are listening who feel like accepting. 180 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 8: The murder of your dad is horrible. That to accept 181 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 8: that your mom killed your dad is way too horrible 182 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 8: to entertain. So you can even like think about that possibility. 183 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 3: But you have to, like, how can you not? You 184 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 3: have to because it is a possibility, right, There's a 185 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 3: ton of possibilities. Unfortunately, that is one. She's just a 186 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 3: very warm and loving person. She's a mom. Like when 187 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 3: you picture a mom, at least, I picture someone who 188 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 3: gives you hugs and who's affectionate and who you can 189 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 3: talk to and who you feel comfortable with. 190 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 2: According to Liz, Sandy was always nurturing, constantly doting on 191 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 2: her only daughter. 192 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 3: You know, they're making you food, and they're feeding you, 193 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 3: and they're making sure you're okay, and you know, it's 194 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 3: just someone you can trust. 195 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 4: Liz says. 196 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 2: Sandy was the peacemaker of the family, especially during shall 197 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 2: we say Liz's more rebellious years. She was always the. 198 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 3: Buffer between me and my dad, and she was always 199 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 3: telling my dad to just you know, it's okay, just 200 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 3: give her some space. It'll be fine. I felt like 201 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 3: my mother was somebody I could genuinely talk to, not 202 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 3: about everything, but about most things. 203 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 2: I think a lot of daughters feel that way about 204 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 2: their mothers. They don't need to know everything like, you know, 205 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 2: maybe the time you flirted with shoplifting when you were a. 206 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 3: Little too old to be doing that. 207 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 2: Just me. 208 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 3: My mom is an incredibly calmon, easy going She never complains. 209 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 3: It was always about other people, and you know, she 210 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 3: just wanted everyone else to be okay. And I think 211 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 3: she came last a lot at the time. But I 212 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 3: think that's a lot of moms. 213 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 2: I feel like throughout this podcast, we've talked a lot 214 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 2: about Sandy's situation, but who she is, what she likes, dislikes, 215 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:26,079 Speaker 2: her favorite foods, you know, the things that make us us. 216 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 2: All of that feels a little fuzzy to me. I 217 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 2: want to see if I can understand her a bit 218 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 2: more where she comes from, so I seek out some 219 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 2: of her family. 220 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: The age difference between Sandy and I is about thirteen 221 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 1: fourteen years. We grew up together, so she was raised 222 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: by my grandmother, as was I, So Sandy has always 223 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: been in my life. 224 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 4: Diana is Sandy's cousin. 225 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: Her mom and. 226 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 2: My dad were siblings, but in reality they're more like sisters, 227 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 2: just like Sandy. Diana says she was abandoned by her parents, 228 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 2: so they both grew up in Laredo, a town in 229 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 2: Texas near the Mexican border. 230 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: At any given point, that could be like seven kids 231 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: in a tiny house. It was just fun for me 232 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: having so many people around, so much love around. 233 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 5: But it was difficult. 234 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: We were poor and we struggled for food, and you know, 235 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: we would go hungry. I could see pictures and look 236 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: back on it now and see the conditions we were 237 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: living in, how I was dressed, how malnursed I look. 238 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 2: Sandy was Diana's role model, caring, reliable, sensible. She even 239 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 2: taught Diana to drive. 240 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 5: She was such a goodie two shoes, like I don't 241 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 5: know how else to put it. She wasn't a rule breaker, 242 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 5: you know. She we followed the law. She barely had 243 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 5: a speeding ticket. 244 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 2: Diana followed Sandy from Laredo to Houston and lived with 245 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 2: her in Jim for a. 246 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 4: Couple of years. 247 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 2: She says it was her first experience of living in 248 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 2: a peaceful home. 249 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 5: Sandy and Jim, they had a good life, like they 250 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 5: had made it, you know, out of the whole family, 251 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 5: she was the first one to have a nice home 252 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 5: and a good marriage, like we didn't grow up with, 253 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 5: you know, examples of a good marriage. Besides my aunt. 254 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 5: Everyone else was broken home. You know, my dad, his 255 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 5: marriage didn't work out. Her mom, you know, their marriage 256 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 5: didn't work out. So they were a perfect example of 257 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 5: what we all strive to achieve one day, you know, 258 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 5: the financial stability, the good marriage, you know. I it's 259 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 5: just still so crazy that out of all of us, 260 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 5: she is the one that ended up in this situation. 261 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 2: Maybe it's unsurprising considering how much Diana revered Sandy, but 262 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 2: you can't think of anyone less likely to murder their husband. 263 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 5: It was devastating that anyone could think that she was 264 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 5: capable of that, and that she would do something like 265 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 5: that to Jim. And I think maybe she was afraid that, 266 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 5: you know, we were going to think the same thing, 267 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 5: But it just it never entered my mind that Sandy 268 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 5: could be capable of that. 269 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 2: But in the summer of twenty seventeen, Sandy's murder trial 270 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 2: is finally scheduled, and Diana braces herself for what might 271 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 2: come out in court. 272 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 4: What if she got it all wrong? 273 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 5: You know, I believe in science, I believe in evidence, 274 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 5: I believe in law enforcement. And so before the how started, 275 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 5: I prepared myself. I prepared myself for the possibility of 276 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 5: Sandy actually doing this crime, Like I was not blind 277 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 5: to the fact that it is possible, you know, And 278 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 5: so I prepared myself that I'm going to be sitting there, 279 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 5: you know, during the trial and I could find out 280 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 5: Sandy is guilty. That's how I looked at it, because 281 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 5: I was prepared to see the evidence, you know. I 282 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 5: believe that if they charge someone that they have the 283 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 5: evidence to back it up. And I thought, well, what 284 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 5: am I going to do if she's guilty, Like, what 285 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 5: am I going to do? And I knew that, Okay, 286 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 5: if she's guilty, then she deserves to be in prison, 287 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 5: and I'm not going to turn my back on her. 288 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 5: You know, She's been there my whole life, so I 289 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 5: will support her however I can. But she definitely deserves 290 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 5: to be in prison if that's what she did, if 291 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 5: she's guilty of this. So that's how I went into 292 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 5: the trial, knowing that I could get some devastating news. 293 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 6: Mac and I wholeheartedly, without a doubt, believe in Sandra's innocence. 294 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 2: This is, no doubt a helpful sentiment if you're going 295 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 2: to defend someone against the murder charge, and Sandy's lucky 296 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 2: She's got Allison Seacrest, who, along with her uncle Mac Seacrest, 297 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 2: will be representing her in court. 298 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 9: I was honored and delighted to step in and represent 299 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 9: Sandy at trial. 300 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 6: Mac is my uncle and like a second father. 301 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,640 Speaker 4: She lived with me and studied the law and learned 302 00:18:58,680 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 4: to have a cook. 303 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 6: I had a cook, Oh gosh, amazing salads, you know, 304 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 6: lovely fish, all kinds of things. He's an amazing chef 305 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 6: and more importantly, a great friend and excellent mentor. 306 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 2: George McCall c Chris Junior, or Mac as he prefers 307 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 2: to be called as in his late seventies. Now, he's 308 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 2: one of the big guns of the Texas legal world. 309 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 2: He's been practicing since nineteen seventy seven, and he wrote 310 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 2: the book on law. No really, he's the author of 311 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 2: O'Connor's Texas Criminal Codes plus a kind of Texan legal bible. 312 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 2: And Alison is not only his niece but his protege. 313 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 6: I had the opportunity to go to court with him 314 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 6: when I was gosh, probably fourth grade or so, and 315 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 6: just thought it was really fascinating seeing him interacting with 316 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 6: judges and lawyers and his client. 317 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 2: Alison cut her teeth as a prosecutor in the Harris 318 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 2: County DA's office before going into private practice. After taking 319 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 2: on Sandy's case, they request the Melgar police files and 320 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 2: began acquainting themselves with the various details. 321 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 6: We spent hours and hours with Sandy, hours and hours 322 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 6: with her daughter and with other witnesses and family friends 323 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 6: that we called, you know, as a young defense attorney, 324 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 6: not the experience that my uncle had. Obviously, it was 325 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 6: hard not to get involved. You know. I think a 326 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 6: lot of doctors and lawyers and probably some other professions 327 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 6: have to learn to compartmentalize and not become attached. But 328 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,360 Speaker 6: I like Sandy. We did a deep dive into all 329 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:45,719 Speaker 6: of her text messages and understanding what their relationship was like, 330 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 6: what a sweet, loving family, and it wasn't possible for 331 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 6: us to not get emotionally involved. 332 00:20:55,080 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 2: But soon mac Alison, Liz and Diana, we'll see how 333 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 2: this will all play out in court. 334 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: A local mark case. 335 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 2: That grabbed national attention is headed. 336 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,479 Speaker 7: To trial Jerry's selection starting today in the trial of 337 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 7: Sandra Melgar, who's accused of murdering her longtime husband then 338 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 7: trying to cover it up. 339 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 2: The media circus picks into high gear and presents viewers 340 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 2: with a familiar setup of a lurid them fatale murder trial. 341 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 7: This is a case that began in twenty twelve and 342 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 7: Sandra Melgar stands accused of murdering her husband, hi May Melgar, 343 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 7: then staging a home invasion as a cover up. It 344 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 7: happened on December twenty third in northwest Harris County. Sandra 345 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 7: and her husband were both found tied up. He was 346 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,199 Speaker 7: found dead, stabbed thirty one times in a closet. She 347 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 7: was found bound in a bathroom. 348 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 10: Melgar originally had told investigators that she blacked out in 349 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 10: a bathroom and woke up tied up in a closet, 350 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 10: but nearly two years later she was arrested and charged 351 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 10: with murder. Now Melgar has been free on a fifty 352 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 10: thousand dollars bond. If convicted of murder, she faces up 353 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 10: to like in prison. 354 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 2: On Thursday, August twenty seventeen, the State of Texas Versus 355 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 2: Sandra Jean Melgar begins Harris County Criminal Justice Center, Franklin Street, 356 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 2: Downtown Houston. A busker greets the study flow of people 357 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 2: as they climb the stone steps and pass through the 358 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 2: glass doors of the imposing twenty one story building. Attorneys, 359 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 2: journalists Jim and Sandy's family including Liz, Anthony and Diana, 360 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 2: and members of the public all wait in line at 361 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 2: the airport style security. Laptops are laid neatly in trays, 362 00:22:55,680 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 2: pockets emptied. Today the line is longer than usual. A 363 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 2: noisy knot of law students join the line. They've just 364 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 2: finished their bar exams and for the first time in months, 365 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 2: they've got some downtime. What better way to spend it 366 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 2: than setting in on the opening day of what promises 367 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 2: to be an extraordinary case. 368 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 3: It was just like one of the most surreal moments 369 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 3: of my life. It just felt like this, like a 370 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 3: snowball that just was gathering momentum. 371 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,479 Speaker 2: Liz attempts to navigate the swirling frenzy of the media. 372 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,360 Speaker 2: Cameras aren't allowed inside the courtroom, so the TV crews linger. 373 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 3: In the hallway, and there's just this camera guy from 374 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,439 Speaker 3: one of the news stations and he's just like he 375 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 3: hits somebody in the head of his camera. My husband 376 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 3: is trying to get him the way to block him. 377 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 3: The guy's walking backwards and my husband's like in front 378 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 3: of us I'm trying not to trip over my crutches. 379 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 2: As if things aren't complicated enough covering from surgery and 380 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 2: hobbling around on crutches. 381 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,679 Speaker 3: I mean, there's just like it's just pure chaos in 382 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 3: this whole way. And I mean I'd never experienced anything 383 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 3: like that before. 384 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,640 Speaker 2: But Liz isn't allowed to watch the trial because she's 385 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 2: going to be called as a witness. 386 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, they put you in a witness room and 387 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 3: you just have to sit in there all day, every 388 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 3: day and wait because you don't know when you're going 389 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 3: to be called. 390 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 2: Liz is going to miss the moment she's been waiting 391 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 2: years for when the detectives finally reveal their evidence against 392 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 2: her mom, why they think Sandy killed her dad, even 393 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:38,360 Speaker 2: though she was. 394 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:39,919 Speaker 4: Found with her hands tied. 395 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 2: It's the same for Sandy's cousin Diana, who's also being 396 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 2: called as a witness. 397 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 5: That devastated me because I wanted to hear the evidence firsthand. 398 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 5: I wanted to see it. I didn't want to read it. 399 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 5: I wanted to see what the jury was going to 400 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 5: see and hear. I wanted to exp experience it just 401 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 5: like they're going to. 402 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 2: And so the State of Texas versus Sandra Jean Melgar 403 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 2: finally begins. First, they need to select a jury, feeding 404 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 2: even more breathless coverage in the press. 405 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 10: Both the prosecution and the defense spent the morning going 406 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,719 Speaker 10: through sixty five prospective jurors. But after going through that 407 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 10: selection process, it couldn't come up with a group of 408 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,679 Speaker 10: twelve that they were looking for. Sandra Melgar is charged. 409 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 2: Both sides get a chance to quiz potential jurors, trying 410 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 2: to weed out anyone with a conflict of interest or 411 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 2: an obvious bias. If you've read MAXI Christ's book, you'll 412 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,439 Speaker 2: know that the legal term for this is war dyer. 413 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 2: The potential jurors are reminded that the defendant, Sandy is 414 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 2: innocent until proven guilty, and that it's the prosecution's job 415 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 2: to prove her guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. But what 416 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 2: they don't have to prove is motive, which isn't quite 417 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 2: how I remember it from all those courtrooms dramas I've watched. 418 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm looking at you Law and Order Detective 419 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 2: Olivia Benson, where whole episodes revolve around exposing someone's motive. 420 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 2: But this is real life, and there's no legal requirement 421 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 2: to prove motive. 422 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 4: You can find someone guilty of murder without ever knowing 423 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 4: why they did it. 424 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 2: So the potential jurors are asked, could they convict someone 425 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 2: without a motive, and some say they do have a 426 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 2: problem with that and are upfront about it, admitting they 427 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 2: wouldn't be able to find someone guilty without knowing their motive, 428 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 2: so they're out. Others don't make the cut for other reasons. 429 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 2: They're into day two of the trial before they finally 430 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 2: select eight men and four women who will sit in 431 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,360 Speaker 2: judgment of Sandy Melgar. 432 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 9: It's part of my life, part of my history. I 433 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 9: got called into something I didn't want. I resent it, 434 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 9: but I was to do it. I did it because 435 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 9: that's of my civil responsibility. That's what I would want 436 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 9: the government to protect me and make sure if I 437 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 9: was in her situation and somebody was there protecting me. 438 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 3: Once they picked all the jurors that were gonna sit, 439 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 3: I just remember my cousin saying, there they go. Those 440 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 3: are the people that have your mom's life in their hands, 441 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 3: And that's when it hit home. 442 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 2: Liz watches the jurors file in before we're treating to 443 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 2: the cold airless witness room, like I kept. 444 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 3: I was like trying to look at them and like 445 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 3: get a read on them or figure out like please, please, 446 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 3: just be a good human, do the right thing. That's 447 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 3: what made it real, Like that was the moment. 448 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 2: Once again, she'll be drawing on every ounce of her 449 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 2: Kekchi warrior spirit to get her through the nerve shredding 450 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 2: days ahead. 451 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 11: It was made to be a sensationalis trial, I think 452 00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 11: because it was so unusual. 453 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 4: What will the jurors make of her? 454 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 11: Mom Sendra Melkar herself would limp into the courtroom every morning. 455 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 11: When we sat down, she usually put her head down 456 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 11: and she didn't look at us very much. 457 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 4: And how will they determine Sandy's fate? 458 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 11: I want to believe somebody is innocent until the state 459 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 11: can prove them guilty. And is the state doing their 460 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 11: job improving this person guilty? And we all place that 461 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 11: at the forefront of our deliberations and our discussion, saying 462 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:30,679 Speaker 11: let's do this the way we're supposed to. 463 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 9: We're here to decide innocent or guilty. 464 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 4: That's next time on Hands Tied. 465 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 2: You've been listening to Hands TIEDE, a new eight part 466 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 2: true crime series from BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts. New 467 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 2: episodes will be released weekly, so subscribe, follow on the 468 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts so you 469 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 2: don't miss out. If you like the show, please help 470 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 2: us by spreading the word or giving us a five 471 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 2: star review. I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and the producer is 472 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 2: Maggie Latham. Sound design and mix is by Tom Brignoll. 473 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 2: Our script consultant is Emma Weatherall production support is from 474 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 2: Dan Martini, Elena Boutang and Mabel Finnegan Wright and our 475 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 2: production Executive is Laura Jordan Rawl. 476 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 4: The series was developed by Anya Saunders and Emma Shaw. 477 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 2: At iHeart, the Managing Executive Producer is Christina Everett, and 478 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 2: for BBC Studios, the Executive Producer is Joe Kent. James 479 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 2: Cook is the creative director A Factual for BBC Studios 480 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 2: Audio and the Director of Audio at BBC Studios is 481 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 2: Richard Knight.