1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Hey, this is anning and welcome to stuff I've never 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: told re production of I heart ideas how stuff works 3 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: for today's classic. We're bringing back when that we we 4 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,319 Speaker 1: something we kind of mentioned in our Wow this whole 5 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: decade happens. So what happened in the pre the nippless 6 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: So I don't really I remember this happening only because 7 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: I was working out on this show at the time. 8 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: But I will say, as a runner, sometimes I do 9 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: get a little frustrated. I can't just look around topless, 10 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: but men can't. Like even then, even women just wearing 11 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: a sports braws like, yeah, yeah, I unfortunately don't even 12 00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: have the courage to do that yet. Oh I don't either. 13 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: One day, I've just gotten the carriage to actually change 14 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: in the locker room. Not care enough really, So I 15 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: turn around because you said you would go into the 16 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: bathroom stall, and now I'm looking out, I don't. I'm 17 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: just gonna turn around now, Yeah you've not seen boobies. 18 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I don't understand. Yeah, this is 19 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: something I've heard. I've discussed a lot with my friends, 20 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: kind of this annoyance that it's this whole thing that 21 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:32,199 Speaker 1: our breasts are so sexualized it doesn't even really make sense. 22 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: It's just a batty tissue. But yeah, this has been, 23 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: especially on social media, kind of an ongoing fight because 24 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: the girl who was just advertising to do nudes to 25 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: raise money for the fire Australian fires, she got suspended 26 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: her account got us suspend, yeah, as a violation. So 27 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: still ongoing. She wasn't even showing anything. She just offered, Oh, well, 28 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: I guess we have a lot. We still have a 29 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: lot to sort out, and that is still ongoing. It 30 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,679 Speaker 1: is I believe, I said Sarah Silverman. She just did 31 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: one post of comparing her to a man and essentially 32 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: was talking about this is okay, but this isn't the 33 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: same level. Yes, that's all for you, So we hope 34 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: that you enjoy this classic episode, a look back on 35 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: free the Nipple? What are you those nipples? Welcome to 36 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 1: Stuff Mob Never told You from how stupports dot com. 37 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Carolina and I'm Kristen. 38 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: We're continuing boob Week this week with Free the Nipple. 39 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: We're looking at the free the Nipple movement. It's also 40 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: a movie, it's a hashtag. It's really like a multimedia experience, 41 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: including the ones on your chest. You have them too, 42 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: I have nipples. Yeah, yeah, it turns out that we 43 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: all do, and that they are currently your nipples are 44 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 1: swept up in a political movement known as Free the Nipple. 45 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: And this is we're jumping off, of course, from Monday's 46 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: episode on toplessness and the legalities and the rules and 47 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: regulations in our country sort of around the world too 48 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: when it comes to women bearing their breasts and the 49 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:26,119 Speaker 1: implications of that. Yeah, because, as we talked about more 50 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: in depth in our episode why Can't Women Go topless? 51 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: Breast did have a big moment in Western fashion because, 52 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: especially in the mid to late seventeenth century and eighteenth century, 53 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: very low cut dresses were in vogue for women. Um 54 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: some might even let a little bit of their nips slip. 55 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: And because of that, nipple rouge was a thing, and 56 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: it did not signify that you were some kind of prostitute, 57 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: but rather you were a high class woman. Well yeah, 58 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: but I mean it was part of pop culture, and 59 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: just the way that pop culture trickles down today, it 60 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: was the same thing all the way back then. Yes, 61 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: you had queens and ladies at court wearing these incredibly 62 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 1: low cut dresses, but you also had prostitute sporting the fashion. 63 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: And just because it didn't necessarily symbolize sexiness, and of course, 64 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: I mean exposing your nipple didn't necessarily indicate sexiness or sexuality, 65 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean they weren't part of the sex cells ethos. 66 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: And I thought this was really interesting. I've never read 67 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: about this before, that there were woodcut images of women 68 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 1: with bare breasts that appeared on ballad sheets to illustrate 69 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: the text as a selling point. So even though nipples, yeah, 70 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 1: they weren't a big deal. It was like maybe if 71 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 1: you were wore a mini skirt. Now it's not like 72 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: a huge deal, but they were still considered attractive enough 73 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: to be part of a sales pitch when trying to 74 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 1: sell these ballad sheets. So in this era, exposed nipples 75 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: could suggest high class uh, prostitution, chastity, sexiness, maternity, and love. Yeah, 76 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: that makes that's it's so clear cut. It's so clear cut. Yeah, 77 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: I'm really glad we're having this easy, breezy conversation. But yeah, 78 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: I mean, if you look at art from from back 79 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: in that era, I mean, a woman could have her 80 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: breast exposed to symbolize here, she's a mother, she's taking 81 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: care of these children, but it could also be provocative 82 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: and sexy too, just oh my god, just the same 83 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: way that women are complicated beings in real life. So 84 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: if we fast forward quite a bit from the eighteenth 85 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: century to today, there's a lot of conversation and protests 86 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: and activism and social media ing going on around female 87 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: nipples in particular, and it runs the gamut from people 88 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: like the radical feminist group found it in Ukraine called Femine, 89 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 1: which uses to bless protesting to call out not only 90 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: the idea of the male gays, but more specifically to 91 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 1: try to confront and take down repressive regimes and religion. 92 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: But then you also have the less intrusive in a 93 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: way they're they're certainly not running up and trying to 94 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 1: attack the pope like Femine. You have hashtag free the Nipple, 95 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: which is a viral social media hashtag which is calling 96 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: for female nipples specifically and breast to be normalized. Yeah, 97 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's great. We talked a lot 98 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: about normalizing the female body, specifically the female breast in 99 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: our episode on toplessness, and I don't think that's off 100 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: the mark. I think that's a good idea, But there 101 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: is something about how very social media, cool girl viral, 102 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: this free the nipple movement is that has lent itself, 103 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: I think, to being criticized by all of the think 104 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: piece writers out there, especially when a lot of the 105 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 1: proponents of it are celebrities. It reminds me, Caroline of 106 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: the period Pride podcasts, where a lot of that is 107 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: social media driven, of um intentionally posting photos on Instagram 108 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: suggesting or outright showing menstrual blood, only to have it 109 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: taken down and then start a conversation that way. It's 110 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: the same thing, only instead of used tampons, we have 111 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: unused nipples. Unused nipples. I mean, it's not like we're 112 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: not used to seeing nipples to a certain degree. I 113 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: mean we're certainly okay with them in in fashion, for instance, 114 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not uncommon to open a fashion magazine 115 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: and see both editorial content and ads featuring women's boobs. 116 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: But it's almost the same attitude. It made me think 117 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: of how in our Toplessness episode we talked about how 118 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: it's okay for men to go into a strip club 119 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: willingly or women know and pay to see topless women. Like, 120 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: that's okay legally where everyone's comfortable with that. But the 121 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: minute that woman walks outside and her boobs are out 122 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: on the street, if she if she leaves to go 123 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: take a smoke break, it just doesn't put on a shirt. 124 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: But I like how boobs out on the street makes 125 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: me think, like her boobs and their high heels just 126 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: like walking along the boobs need a break to get 127 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: some air. But it's kind of the same concept almost 128 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: that like, and we're so accustomed to seeing that in 129 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 1: high fashion. We're so accustomed to seeing nipples being out 130 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: all aggressive and out there rouged, even in our fashion magazines. 131 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: But it's that's where we expect to see them. We 132 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: don't expect to see nipples necessarily outside in the real 133 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: world or on social media. So we see it in 134 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: the high culture in the low culture. But what about 135 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: in between. Well, be because of celebrity culture, we have 136 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: been seeing them more on red carpets. I mean Rihanna 137 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: really in terms of celebrities, Rihanna has I mean freed 138 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 1: her nipples. I mean she's kind of led the charge 139 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: in terms of freeing the nipple because she just doesn't 140 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 1: care and kind of an amazing way. Um. She used 141 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: to actually post pretty niptastic photos on Instagram all the 142 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: time until Instagram removed so many of her photos. She 143 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: was finally like, well, screw you, Instagram, I'm gonna leave. 144 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:37,959 Speaker 1: And then famously in she arrived at the CFDA Awards 145 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: and accustom made Adam Salman gown that showed everything. It 146 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: was basically like, uh, a crystal chain mail dress. It 147 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: was just like a gem encrusted mesh dress and she 148 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: she was wearing like a flesh toned g string, but 149 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: she had her nipples out and Vogue was like, oh wow, 150 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: you know, or have nipples completely lost their shock value? 151 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: We weren't even looking at them. We swear we were 152 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 1: looking at the dress and the dress was amazing. I mean, 153 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: it's true. If you do look at images of her 154 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: in that bedazzled dress, there's so much going on in 155 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 1: the detailing of the dress that once you get to 156 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,079 Speaker 1: her aerial and you're like, oh, nipples, Okay, now let's 157 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: look more of these gems. Yeah, exactly, there's something shiny. 158 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: It's so distracting and over the fashion spot. Also in June, 159 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: the writer points out that fall fashion shows saw a 160 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 1: quote actual nipple trend and that all of the sheer 161 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: tops led to a nipple extravagance. Nipple extravaganza. Um. She 162 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: She says that Kendall Jenner, of all people, normalized the 163 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 1: nip extravaganza. She says that when Kendall made her now 164 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: infamous breast revealing New York Fashion Week debut on the 165 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: catwalk at Mark Jake Runway, boobs, We're here to stay, 166 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: but we we gotta give a quick throwback though to 167 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 1: the ur Mono Keny, I mean really Rudy Gernreich who 168 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: designed the Mono Keny and also the thong um, and 169 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: you can learn more about that and the stuff I 170 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: never told you video or thongs. Anti feminists UM tried 171 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: to make the Mono Keni happen because of a very 172 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: similar free the nipple etho, saying ladies, let your free 173 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 1: form flow here there. It's basically a brief with tiny 174 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: suspenders to to hold it up, um, but the suspenders 175 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: go between your boobs. And he was raised in more 176 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: of a German nudist culture, so you can imagine it 177 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: did not go well in the United States. But I 178 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: was also fascinated to learn a mid all this research 179 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: speaking of Germany, that it's the East Germans who were 180 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: all like nudity, it's cool, it's Wednesday, let's get naked, 181 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: take off top. And it's the West Germans who are 182 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: who are a little more scandalized by it. But I 183 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: can only imagine that Americans are even more scandalized than 184 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,559 Speaker 1: any Germans by this. I mean, oh yeah, Americans are 185 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: amazing fruits when it comes to some exposed nipple. Oh yeah. 186 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 1: We we believe that our entire community and our community 187 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: standards will somehow crumble if a woman's nipples look at us, 188 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: if they are pointed in our general direction, what do 189 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,559 Speaker 1: they wink at you? Yeah? I know that's terrifying. Um, 190 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: that is terrifying if if a nipple were to wink 191 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: at you. But hey, in the last episode we talked 192 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: about them screaming. So you know, we're just on a 193 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: roll hysterical nipples. It's like all of all stuff I've 194 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: never told you in in one piece of anatomy. Um. 195 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: So there is free The nipple, though, is not only 196 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: a hashtag, but it's also a movement, Caroline. It is 197 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 1: a movement, and it's not a movement of anthropomorphize boobs 198 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: in high heels marching down the street. Um yeah. Actress 199 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: Lena Esco actually launched the hashtag free the Nipple movement 200 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, um which she says it's 201 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: meant to be playful but controversial. She says, there's no 202 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: way the wheels would be turning unless something was going 203 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 1: to spark it, something controversial, and that was Free the Nipples. 204 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: So it starts with a movie. She back in, got 205 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: the idea for a Free the Nipple movie, got financing 206 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: in and she wrote, directed, produced, and starred in the film, 207 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: which is a political comedy, not a documentary as I 208 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: initially thought, which came out in December, and it seems 209 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: like it's around this time that it, like the whole 210 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: free the Nipple thing really explodes. Yeah, because I've been 211 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: the most exposed to free the nipple on social media, 212 00:13:54,559 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: as confronting Instagram's policies regarding breastfeeding or any kind of 213 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: female nipple exposure. Facebook, Twitter the same thing, and social 214 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 1: media wise, it does seem like images of breastfeeding paved 215 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: the way for this more general call to free the nipple, 216 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: because I remember, I mean for a number of years now. 217 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: Facebook and Instagram have since updated their policies. But when 218 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: you would have the story go viral about the mom 219 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: who had a really sweet photo taken of her baby breastfeeding, 220 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: and she would post it somewhere for everyone to see 221 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: in comment and like, and then Instagram or Facebook would 222 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: take it off for being inappropriate, and so that really 223 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: started a conversation which has since though broadened. Yeah, I mean, 224 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: if ESCO's name sounds familiar, it could also be because 225 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: in summer before the movie came out, she actually created 226 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: a p s A called Everybody who Has Got to 227 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: Eat in an effort to normalize breastfeeding in public, and 228 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: it was part of an effort to get Facebook to 229 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: drop its breast feeding photo ban. And on the Free 230 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: the Nipple website it does mention breastfeeding. They write the 231 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: issues where addressing or equal rights for men and women, 232 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: a more balanced system of censorship, and legal rights for 233 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: all women to breastfeed in public. It's the very simple 234 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: idea that women should not be shamed for breastfeeding their kids. 235 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: And that's certainly nothing new either. I mean, the the 236 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: ability to breastfeed in public without censure or even worse 237 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: risk of arrest or fines is something that groups like 238 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: l League, for instance, have been advocating for since the 239 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, which is wild when you think about how 240 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: long nipples in public have been, you know, such a 241 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: hot topic. Yeah, and writing about that hot topic about 242 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: why breastfeeding might skive some people out. Jamiel Goldenberg and 243 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: Tommy and Roberts wrote a chapter in the book Handbook 244 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: of Experimental Existential Psychology that for the nipples secrete milk 245 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: and our hints reminders of our creaturely mammalian nature. Um, 246 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: so they're they're basically writing that it creates this taboo 247 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: in society that like, we're reminded that women's boobs aren't 248 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: just there for men's sexual pleasure. So nipples freak us 249 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: out because they're reminders that we're all animals. Is that 250 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: what's going on? Humans are so weird, Caroline, so weird 251 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: when I want to just go take a nap. But 252 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: I mean, it's this, it's this greater conversation about women's 253 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: bodies and women having control over their own bodies and 254 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: not being freaking thrown in jail or arrested or penalized 255 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: for things like breastfeeding or going topless. That's behind Esco 256 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: and other people's push for the movie because the film's premise, 257 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: which she says was inspired by true events. They basically 258 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: follow a group of young women who take to the 259 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: streets of New York City topless to protest the archaic 260 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: censorship laws of the United States, and they say that 261 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: it explores the contradictions in our media dominated society where 262 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: acts of violence and killing or glorified while images of 263 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: a woman's body are censored, so trying to point out 264 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 1: that people consider nipples almost to be more obscene than bloody, 265 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: gory killing and case in point, during the filming of 266 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 1: Free the Nipple, New York City police threatened to shut 267 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: down production, so instead of getting permits for the second 268 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: half of the movie, she shot when she could, and 269 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 1: so when the scene called for a topless protest in public, 270 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 1: she held an actual topless protest in public because female 271 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: toplessness in public is legal in New York State and 272 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: so the cops cannot arrest them. So this is like 273 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: an endless chain of art imitating life imitating art because 274 00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: the police mistakenly thought that they were walking around topless 275 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: to be intentionally prurient, right because when people see naked 276 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: female breast, they think sex. Well, unless there's a baby 277 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 1: attached to that breast, and then they think sex. Oh no, wait, 278 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,360 Speaker 1: that's breastfeeding. Yeah, in which case you should go hide 279 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: yourself because you're an animal. Yeah, because you're uncomfortable because 280 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: you might still think sex. But then you're also like, 281 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: oh no, maternity, Oh no, what are we really animals? Right? 282 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 1: And then yeah, and then your your brain exploits. But 283 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 1: I do think it's interesting that they are these women 284 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 1: are being sort of hassled by the police in New York, 285 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 1: whether their protest was for the movie or whether it 286 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: was an actual protest staged by topless women. Because in 287 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: a paper that we talked about a lot in our 288 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: first episode by Rena Glazer about sort of the legal 289 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 1: issues surrounding women going topless. Um, there was one particular 290 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: case where there were some women in New York who, 291 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: as part of a protest unequal regulations of men's chests 292 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: versus women's, they went to this kind of secluded New 293 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: York City park, almost sort of baiting the police to 294 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: arrest them in any way, to gloss over a whole 295 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: lot of legal and judicial wrangling. Uh, the legal stuff 296 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: dragged on for years and years, and on one of 297 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 1: the appeals, the court basically said, hey, these women are 298 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: cool because they were protesting. They're not just like aimlessly topless. 299 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: They were using their chests as part of speech, almost, 300 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,719 Speaker 1: and so they were protected under the First Amendment. And meanwhile, 301 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: the women are tearing their hair out, going, no, we 302 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: don't want just women who are protesting while topless to 303 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: be protected. We wanted to be okay for any woman 304 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: to have her nips out, which is a cause that 305 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 1: celebrities have now taken up, and we're going to talk 306 00:19:53,440 --> 00:20:07,640 Speaker 1: about that when we come right back from a quick break. Well, 307 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: Kristen mentioned celebrities taking up the mantle of hashtag free 308 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: the Nipple, and this is another part where Carol gets 309 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: I rolly because reading about celebrities like Scout and rumor 310 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: Willis or even Russell Simmons supporting the free the Nipple movement, 311 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: I almost don't trust it because it seems like they're 312 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: not really actually that concerned about those bigger issues of 313 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: women being penalized for breastfeeding in public, or women being 314 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: penalized unjustly for going topless in states where it's legal. 315 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 1: It almost. It's very easy to dismiss celebrity participation in 316 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: this because it's like, oh, where are you just mad 317 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 1: about Instagram? Yeah, Instagram has been ground zero in a 318 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: lot of ways for free the nipple. Especially the celebrity 319 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: side of this so called move have meant um because 320 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: you mentioned Scout Willis, for instance, who in May decided 321 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: to test the toplessness laws in New York City. Is 322 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: part of activism and protests. And so she put on 323 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 1: a pretty skirt and nothing else and took a walk 324 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: down the street and took a photo of herself doing 325 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: so and posted it on Instagram and also Twitter. I believe, 326 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: basically so that it would get taken down because once 327 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 1: you post something on social media and that social media 328 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: company removes it because of its you know, decency policy, 329 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 1: then you have a viral story on your hands. And 330 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: she was right, So this whole thing blew up, and 331 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 1: she said at one point quote matters like the taboo 332 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: of the nipple. In the twenty one century, public breastfeeding, 333 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: slut shaming, fat shaming, breast cancer, and wareness, body positivity, 334 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: general equality and censorship have found their way into mainstream discussion. 335 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: So with that Caroline. It sounds like Scout does get it. 336 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: It sounds like she gets it. But there are still 337 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 1: plenty of women out there who were saying that putting 338 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 1: your boobs out or putting your nips out is not 339 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,640 Speaker 1: doing feminism right, I mean, there's plenty of critics. Yeah, yes, 340 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: Kristen is rolling her eyes super hard, and I think 341 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: it's it is, like I said, it's easy for a 342 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 1: lot of people to dismiss the actions of celebrities when 343 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 1: they don't trust them to actually be part of the movement. 344 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 1: But but like you said, it does sound like I mean, 345 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: it sounds like Scout get it. I mean doesn't feel 346 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: sometimes like activism and feminism is being commodified through celebrity 347 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: culture in these instances. Yes, I had my oh here 348 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: we go again moment with it all when Chelsea Handler, 349 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 1: who I like, Please don't send me letters about how 350 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 1: great Chelsea Handler is. I like her. She can be 351 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: funny at times, um, But when she posted her topless 352 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: photo of her riding on a horse, very very gallantly 353 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: on Instagram, of course immediately got a ton of attention. 354 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: And she said, I mean, the whole contrast slash joke 355 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: was like putin read posted an identical photo of himself 356 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: and she was like, well Putin can do this, then 357 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: why can't I? What's wrong with women's bodies? And at 358 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 1: that point, to me being a little bit of a cynic, 359 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: I suppose it seemed like a media attention grab, but 360 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 1: it's also to the same conversation that comes up with 361 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 1: empower tizing of using female empowerment and feminist the slogans 362 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: to sell goods as well. I mean, it's the question of, well, 363 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 1: is it such a bad thing that celebrities are hopping 364 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: on board, because maybe that signals that this is going 365 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 1: mainstream right to get people talking about it for sure, 366 00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: and definitely uh the topless child of two really famous actors, 367 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: I mean, that does get people talking, for sure. And 368 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 1: I am glad that what came out of that was 369 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: a quote like, hey, guys, we've got all of this 370 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: stuff we need to talk about, and now that you're 371 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 1: looking at my boobs, let's hear what I have to 372 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: say about it too, So like at least that came 373 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: out of it. And model and actress Kara day Levine 374 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: joined the conversation as well. She posted a picture although 375 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 1: her nipple was exed out. I believe she posted a 376 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 1: picture of her naked chest next to a man's naked chest, 377 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: and they drew a little diagram, which is very helpful. 378 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: Again if you're a visual learner, I love diagram I 379 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:34,679 Speaker 1: love like infographics, but on skin, um drawing around like 380 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 1: here's the nipple, here's the areola, here's the breast tissue, 381 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: and basically saying like this is fine in the world 382 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: and on social media, and this one over here that 383 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: belongs to a woman is not. Like, we want equality, 384 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: We want the same abilities to go topless as anybody else, 385 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 1: which led to one of my favorite free the Nipple 386 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: off shoots, which were these male nipple image pasties of 387 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 1: sorts um that someone I forget who it is who 388 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: made them. That you could if you were a woman 389 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: and you wanted to post a topless photo of yourself 390 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: but not haven't taken down from social media, you could 391 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: simply superimpose these male nipples on top of your female 392 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 1: nipples so that the photo would no longer be indecent. 393 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there are blogs out there that have done 394 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: it on the female nude, like sculptures, paintings from history, 395 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: you know, very famous works of art. Pasting a male 396 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,439 Speaker 1: nipple on top of it, like, hey, well this is 397 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 1: okay now right, this is fine well, and then on 398 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: the flip side of that you have orange is the 399 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: new black Star Matt and mcgory who photoshop nipples of 400 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 1: Miley Cyrus and Christie Teagan onto his pecks um And 401 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: he wrote on the Instagram caption, it's not just about 402 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: getting an even tan. It's one piece of the puzzle 403 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,880 Speaker 1: of creating deep change in the way our society objectifies 404 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 1: women and creates these different standards for men and women 405 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: and other genders. Yeah. I mean, Matt McGrory has been 406 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: super vocal lately about issues relating to women and feminism, 407 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 1: and it's really refreshing to see because he also doesn't 408 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 1: seem like he's just jumping in and pointing his finger 409 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: people and being like here's what I think and this 410 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: is why you should believe it too, and blah blah blah. 411 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: He seems to be listening just as much as he's 412 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: joining in conversations. But it is funny that he's literally, 413 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it just highlights it highlights the ridiculousness of 414 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: all aspects of this that here's a man, an attractive 415 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: man who takes nipples belonging to ladies and he puts 416 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: them over his own. Uh, and it's fine because he 417 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: is still a person with a male body. But Caroline, 418 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: because this exists on the internet, not everybody loves it. 419 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: Not everybody want to free the nipple. You mentioned earlier 420 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 1: a number of think pieces that have thumbed their nose 421 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,360 Speaker 1: at the whole thing. Yeah, one was by Chica Dalmia 422 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:08,400 Speaker 1: over the Week in June, and she was not having it. 423 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: She is not having it. She calls the movement ham 424 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 1: handed and shocked jockey, which is actually the new nicknames 425 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: for Kristen and me. It was ham handed. Fine, well 426 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 1: now I'll be shocked jockey. All right, here we go, 427 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: let's read the nips um. But yeah, she says that 428 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: few real women outside of college campuses can relate to 429 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,719 Speaker 1: it other than publicity hungry celebrities, so she is a 430 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: total skeptic. She does not believe that the Willis sisters 431 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: or any other celebrity could possibly have any good intentions 432 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: behind this at all. She goes on to say, hey, 433 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: why not try to eliminate all double standards and do 434 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: away with all public and decency laws. Hey, why not 435 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: start a free the balls movement. Well, ladies, you you know, 436 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: be super comfortable with that, right. You know what. Mark Dupless, 437 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: by the way, who is the He's in um the 438 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: League and it is also in uh he created and 439 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: stars in Togetherness. He and his brother have talked about 440 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,400 Speaker 1: how there needs to be more testicle equality on film 441 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 1: because you know, we see full frontal females all the time, 442 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 1: but where those testicles? Yeah, she uh, Dalmia would would totally. 443 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 1: She's definitely not in agreement. I think she's definitely like, uh, 444 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: nobody wants to see balls and so therefore also hydra nipples. Yeah, 445 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:31,880 Speaker 1: I don't really want to get on my Instagram fee 446 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: and see nothing but scrot um. But she also says 447 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: something um interesting that we we sort of talked around 448 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: this and about this in our last episode. She says, look, 449 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: women's breasts are sexual in a way that men's are not. 450 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: And I am not willing to de sexualize myself. But 451 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that she does again tie breasts 452 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: completely all the way back to sexuality, not seeming to 453 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: really leave room for that idea of like I'm just 454 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: a lady on my front porch not wanting to wear 455 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: a shirt because it's hot outside. It seems like she's 456 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: not even okay with that idea. Yeah, I think that 457 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: perspective removes context out of sexuality and does speak to 458 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: more of an objectification perspective where we aren't where our 459 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: bodies aren't part of our collective person, but rather our 460 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: person is a collection of body parts, whole stack of meat. 461 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: But there is some critique of Free the Nipple that 462 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: really has gotten my brain wheels a turn in, and 463 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,239 Speaker 1: it does have to do with the sexualization of the 464 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: breast and also the kinds of breasts that we see 465 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: most prominently in Free the Nipple, And it reminds me 466 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: a lot of conversations that arose a couple of years 467 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: ago when slut walks were happening a lot because there 468 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: are very particular colors at least and sizes too, but 469 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: largely colors of breasts that we're seeing. They're all for 470 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: the most part white, all for the most part. Isn't 471 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: is that too qualifying? All totally incompletely many of them 472 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: are white. It does seem like a conversation where women 473 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: of color are marginalized, if not completely invisible. Yeah. Writing 474 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: over at Bustle, Georgina Jones points out that this is 475 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: an ego boost for those comfortable enough to participate, essentially 476 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: a new beauty standard for women to be judged on 477 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: in the Who's the Best Feminist Olympics. She also says 478 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: that it's just for women with quote unquote sellable breasts 479 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: like the ones that are that that type of more 480 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: quote unquote quantified breasts that are featured on the Free 481 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: the Nipple shirt itself, like promoting the film. Yeah, I mean, 482 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: but and I can understand and though why in imagery 483 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: for that film they would use the more stereotypically sexy 484 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: boobs because that's the whole point of the thing, is 485 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: it examining the sexiness factor? Yeah? But Jones laments the 486 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: fact that sort of this bigger movement that we talked about, 487 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: especially in our first episode on toplessness, in the legal 488 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,719 Speaker 1: issues surrounding it. She says that it's been sort of 489 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: co opted in order to create another impossible beauty standard 490 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: when the only people we see in this movement are 491 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: basically white, able bodied, this gendered women, particularly like actresses 492 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: and upper class women in the media. Well, maybe I've 493 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: just seen different breasts, but I have seen a diversity size, shape, 494 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: wise of breasts that have been so called freed through 495 00:31:55,240 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 1: this whole thing. And I understand what Jones is stayinging, 496 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 1: But rather than trying to throw dynamite on the whole thing, 497 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: I think that it's maybe more instructive to consider how 498 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: our perception of bared breasts perhaps does change when you 499 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 1: add layers of disability, or ethnicity or socio economics to this. 500 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: How does it, you know, how how does sex work 501 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: interact with all of these things? Like there there isn't 502 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: an element of privilege to it, But I think that 503 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: that's caused for maybe more conversation and analysis rather than 504 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 1: just stop feminist ng in this way, because I really 505 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: I think it's unfortunate when things devolve into that often 506 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: on social media. It's all it's all fueled by social media. Yeah, 507 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: it's all. Yes, it's blog posts, it's thing pieces, it's 508 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: hashtags pointing fingers at each other. And so I like, 509 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: I mean not to just be like and the man 510 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: is doing it right, But I like Matt mcgory's tactic, 511 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: for instance, of being like, hey, like, here's this thing 512 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: I'm going to point out and and and you know, 513 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: thoughtfully question it um just as other women have done. Um, 514 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: I think that's a good way to go about it, 515 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 1: instead of necessarily pointing fingers and saying stop doing this, 516 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: because I mean, like we pointed out, Scott Willis was 517 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: able to get a conversation started, although Caroline, there was 518 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: an intersection of this topless conversation we've been having and 519 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: women of color at a protest in May in San 520 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: Francisco for Black Lives Matter, where women black women were 521 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: protesting without their shirts on to call attention specifically to 522 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: uh institutionalized violence toward black women and black women's bodily 523 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: integrity as well. So, I mean, that's why I think 524 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: that these conversations are still important to have and not 525 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,919 Speaker 1: just to say you know what, I don't that's that's 526 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,879 Speaker 1: not right. But how do we broaden it? I think 527 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: that we just need to, I mean, just continue removing 528 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 1: all of the layers, so to speak, literally, figuratively, conversationally. Yeah. So, 529 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: I wonder is this the future of protests that women 530 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 1: are just taking their shirts off to draw attention to 531 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: their cause or is it social media? I mean, we 532 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 1: talked about social media activism and our Social Justice Warriors podcast, 533 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: and the fact of the matter is it's effective at 534 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: the very least at starting conversations, yeah, and helping people 535 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 1: to organize around an idea. Yeah. But whether Middle America 536 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 1: is anywhere close to seeing a female and nipple and 537 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 1: not freaking out a little bit, I think we're a 538 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,280 Speaker 1: long way from that. But I'm really curious though, too, 539 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: to hear from international listeners as well, because, um, I 540 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: know the US isn't the only country that has boob 541 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: hang ups, So I'd love to get as diverse a 542 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,399 Speaker 1: perspective on this as as possible, because I do think 543 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 1: it's something that is different for everybody and something that 544 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,760 Speaker 1: everyone has an opinion on because a lot of people 545 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 1: have nipples, as it turns out. Yea, So send us 546 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 1: all of your free the nipple thoughts. Mom Stuff at 547 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 1: house stuff works dot com is our email address. You 548 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 1: can also tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast and use 549 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: the hashtag for the nipple if you like, or messages 550 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 1: on Facebook. And we've got a couple of messages to 551 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: share with you right now. So I have a letter 552 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 1: here that does relate to Boob's Caroline and also to wastes. 553 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 1: This is from Heather about our episode on a waste training. 554 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: She writes, high Ladies, I just discovered your podcast. Thanks 555 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: for a recommendation from a friend. I enjoy it immensely. 556 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,399 Speaker 1: Keep up the good work. Thank you, Heather. I just 557 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:13,879 Speaker 1: listened to your podcast on waste training and I can 558 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: so relate. For my wedding last year, I bought a 559 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: corset bra Hey, I'm a double D and had a 560 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 1: straplest dress. Girls needed extra support. It had the boning 561 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 1: and didn't seem to be that tight on me. Well, 562 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: then I had my bridesmaids do up my corset back 563 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: wedding gown really tight and o MG, my boobs and 564 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: booty looked amazing. But I couldn't eat any of my 565 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: dinner at the reception. I almost passed out at the ceremony, 566 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: and when I finally took it off for the night, 567 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: my rib cage was so so so sore and t 568 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: m I. I ended up being constipated the whole night 569 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: from it. The only way I could relieve the horrific 570 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 1: stomach cramps I was getting was to apply pressure to 571 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: my abdomen. It was not worth the pain. So, Heather, 572 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry to hear that, but cautionary tail, especially 573 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: on your wedding day. I want to be able to 574 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: eat my cake. I want to have my cake and 575 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: eat it too. Yeah, wedding stretchy pants. There we go. 576 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:15,239 Speaker 1: There we go, solving all the problems and at leisurely wedding. Okay, well, 577 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,799 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Caitlin Um, also about 578 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 1: our Waiste training episode. She says, I just tried using 579 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: a corset for the first time as part of my 580 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,399 Speaker 1: postpartum regime, and I thought i'd share my experience with you. 581 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 1: I decided to dry using a corset for two reasons. 582 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,479 Speaker 1: After I had my first child, I felt so weak 583 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 1: in my core for the first week or two after birth. 584 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: It seemed impossible to stand up straight. I thought, of course, 585 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: it might provide me with some core support until I 586 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:43,240 Speaker 1: actually had my own core muscles back in working order again. Additionally, 587 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,320 Speaker 1: I thought the course it would help my post pregnancy 588 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: pucci belly disappear faster. I actually asked my O B 589 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: g U I N about it, thinking he wouldn't have 590 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 1: any objections, and was surprised when he did. While he 591 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,400 Speaker 1: thought it wouldn't be problematic if I were it for 592 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,399 Speaker 1: a few weeks, he was concerned that if I were 593 00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: it for a long period of time. It wouldn't allow 594 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: my core muscles to recover and do the job they're 595 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: meant to do, which is one of the ideas you 596 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,799 Speaker 1: mentioned in the podcast. Despite my doctor's lack of enthusiasm, 597 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,320 Speaker 1: I bought one. It was a little hard to decide 598 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 1: what to buy because there are a bunch of different 599 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:14,839 Speaker 1: brands and types. I settled on a model that had 600 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: boning and several rows of hooks and eyes that allow 601 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 1: you to continually cinch the thing tighter and tighter. It 602 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,360 Speaker 1: wasn't cheap, around eighty five bucks. I started using it 603 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: for two days after I gave birth, and more at 604 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: daily for six to eight hours a day for roughly 605 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: two weeks. It was less uncomfortable than I feared, but 606 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:32,360 Speaker 1: there were a few problems that finally led me to 607 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,800 Speaker 1: abandon it more quickly than I had anticipated. First, it's hot, 608 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 1: especially in Hawaii in the middle of the summer. Plus 609 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 1: it was too long for my torso so it would 610 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 1: dig in under my breast or into my thighs when 611 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,799 Speaker 1: I sat down, not comfortable, especially when breastfeeding. Finally, it 612 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 1: was a pain trying to use the bathroom while wearing it, 613 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,400 Speaker 1: and this is particularly true since I was dealing with 614 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:55,800 Speaker 1: post birth lady issues in the bathroom. However, I swear 615 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 1: that it did help my belly shrink faster than it 616 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,840 Speaker 1: would have without it, and it helped me non maternity 617 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,319 Speaker 1: clothes right away, which was nice considering I was so 618 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: sick of all my maternity clothes by then, and it 619 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:07,839 Speaker 1: was no small thing to hear, Wow, you just had 620 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 1: a baby. You look great when I was out wearing it. 621 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 1: Even though it wasn't perfect, I would and have still 622 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 1: recommend it for new moms. The only thing I would 623 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,439 Speaker 1: do differently is order a few different options and try 624 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,359 Speaker 1: them on in order to find the one that fit better. 625 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 1: I think I would have worn it longer if it had. 626 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 1: Looking forward to your next episode, your sides and banter 627 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 1: with each other always make me L O L literally well, 628 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 1: Thank you, Caitlin, and thanks to everybody who's written into us. 629 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot Com is our 630 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 1: email address and for links to all of our social 631 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 1: media as well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcast, 632 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,959 Speaker 1: including this one with our sources so you can learn 633 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,280 Speaker 1: more about bringing the nipple head on over to stuff 634 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You dot com for more on this 635 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Does it, how stuff works, 636 00:39:55,680 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 1: dot com