WEBVTT - Adam Grant’s Best Advice 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:08.680 Hi Katie, Hi Brian, Katie. Did you know that we 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:11.239 spend a quarter of our lives at work? Although I 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:13.039 think in your case it's probably more than that. I 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:16.279 was going to say a quarter. How about three quarters? That? Well, 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:18.560 you remember I told Kara swish or work is like 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:23.560 oxygen for me. I don't want to asphyxiate you sometimes. 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:26.120 I'm sure you'd like to every now and then. Anyway, 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:29.120 today's guest, Adam Grant, is clearly right up your alley. 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:33.159 He's an organizational psychologist. We talked about what that means. 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:37.040 He's a very popular, warton professor and an author, and 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:39.640 he's one of the most productive people that you'll ever meet, 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:43.000 so productive it's annoying at times. He was still in 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:45.600 his twenties when he got tenure at the University of 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:48.840 Pennsylvania's Wharton School, and by the time he was thirty five, 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:52.520 he had written three, yes, three best selling books and 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:55.600 he's thirty six. By the way, now, talk about making 0:00:55.680 --> 0:01:00.640 us I'll feel like terrible underachievers, right Brian. For sure? Listeners, 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:03.279 you might also remember Adam Grant from our episode with 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:05.920 Cheryl Sandberg, which is number twenty six. In case you 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:07.760 want to hear it again, that's right. Adam and Cheryl 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:10.440 co wrote the book Option B, which is about facing 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:13.880 adversity and building resilience, and I highly recommend it for 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:18.120 anyone who's had to deal with setbacks. And for this conversation, 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:20.840 we chat with Adam about all kinds of things, the 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:25.360 different work styles of employers and employees. Are you a giver, 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:28.280 a taker or a matcher? By the way, it'll be 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:31.760 interesting for you to look at your own style what 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:34.200 makes a good workplace, which is the subject of his 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:37.800 new podcast called work Life. And also we asked Adam 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:40.720 why he got into the field of organizational psychology and 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:49.680 what the heck does that mean anyway. Yeah, I'm still 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:52.480 trying to figure it out. But as far as I 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:55.400 can tell, my job is to fix other people's jobs. 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:58.400 So I take all the cool insights that we pick 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:01.600 up in social science about how we can, you know, 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:04.920 improve motivation and make better decisions and fight group think, 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:08.480 and I try to design workplaces that suck a little 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:11.519 bit less. Well, when it comes to workplaces, at least 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:15.000 the ones that I've experienced and certainly read about, it 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:18.040 seems like you must be a very busy guy. Yeah, 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:20.399 it's it's really convenient that there are so many bad 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:22.600 leaders and managers out there, because it means I have 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:25.280 a lot of work to do. Convenient but also shocking. 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:29.400 Why are there so few good leaders? What are we 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:32.399 doing wrong? Well? I think the job has become less 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:34.919 and less attractive, if you know, if you think about 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:38.760 the public scrutiny, if you think about you know, most 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:40.919 leaders are in a position where they might not get 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:43.799 to stay for even a year, let alone a few years. 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:46.359 I think we we've done a very poor job designing 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:49.000 leadership roles where people say, look, I'm gonna have a 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:51.519 chance to to really take over and try to fix 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:54.600 an organization for the long term, and you know, focus 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:57.560 on vision and mission and innovation as opposed to just 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:00.360 being accountable to a bunch of shareholders. And based on 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:04.320 your research, what are the characteristics than make a good leader? 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:06.920 It's easier to make a list of the characteristics of 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:11.640 a bad leader, Isn't that part of the problem. I 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:13.959 think we could all make this actually, but you know, 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:15.960 I think you can flip those and say, look, you know, 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:18.040 when I when I look at leaders, there there are 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:20.399 three basics that I always look for. One is that 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:22.520 you know, I would think about them as givers, not 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:25.480 takers right there. They're here to make the group and 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:29.680 the organization successful as opposed to enrich themselves too. They 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:32.800 think about long term decision making as opposed to short 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:35.760 term pressures, and the champion visions that are going to 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:38.920 you know, serve a broader interest over decades as opposed 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:42.800 to quarters and then three. They actually care about their 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:45.600 people and put their people first as opposed to you know, 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:48.360 you hear a lot of well, I put my customers first. 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:51.360 And the sad thing is that, you know, the way 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:54.400 you treat your employees actually spills over to affect your customers. 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:58.200 So it's pretty hard to run a customer friendly organization. Uh, 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:00.800 if you don't care about your own employees first and foremost. 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:03.560 Well and to that point, and your first one about 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:06.600 givers and not takers, you know, your first book makes 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:10.480 the case very powerfully that helping others without expecting anything 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:14.640 in return is actually the best way to advance your career. Um, 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:19.880 which Hugh Kumbaya adam, I mean, that really cuts against 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:23.000 conventional wisdom that actually one of the most selfish things 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:25.280 you can do is to is to be generous um, 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:28.000 can you tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:29.960 so it's you know, it's not true for every person 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.040 and every job, but on average, you know, when when 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:35.960 I've studied givers versus takers, so you know, are you 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:38.920 constantly asking what can you do for me? Or what 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:42.039 can I do for you? The givers tend to struggle 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:43.920 more in the short term, so they make the least 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:47.279 productive engineers, the medical students with the lowest grades, and 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:49.719 the sales people with the lowest revenue. And it's not 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:52.400 hard to figure out why that would be right, because 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:55.320 you know, if you're constantly doing other people's jobs, you 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:56.920 run out of time and energy to get your own 0:04:56.920 --> 0:05:00.280 work done. But in the long run, as quarter turn 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:03.920 into years, what we see is that givers build more trust, 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:07.880 they have stronger relationships and reputations. But they also learn 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:11.000 more because the time you spend solving other people's problems 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:13.440 actually puts you in a better position to solve the 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:16.960 organization's problems. It gives you extra knowledge and scale and expertise, 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:20.160 and so you know, ultimately, the people who end up 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:22.919 achieving the greatest success are the ones who are motivated 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:26.400 to help other people succeed. Isn't though, aren't most people 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:30.360 are effective leaders a combo platter, Adam, I know that 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.840 you say they're givers, takers, and matchers before we get 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:36.400 to my combo pop platter question, what is a matcher? 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:39.320 So most people don't want to be peer givers or 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:42.120 peer takers. They're afraid of being too selfish and too generous. 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:44.200 So they say, all right, I'm gonna play it safe 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:46.919 and I'll become a matcher, which is, I'll do something 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:48.920 for you if you do something for me. It's all 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:51.560 about fairness, quid pro quo. Is that good or bad? 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:55.800 You make it sound bad, You know it's It's a 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:58.240 great way to play it safe. The problem is, though, 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:00.960 that you become too transactional, and when you help people 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:03.000 it feels like you don't really care about them, You 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:05.800 were just helping them to get something back. And then 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:08.039 also you end up helping the wrong people, only the 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:11.320 people who you think are strategic. But you both know 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:13.960 better than I do. We cannot predict who's going to 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.159 end up where, and so if you only help the 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:18.120 people that you think are going to serve your own interests, 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:20.200 you're gonna miss out on a lot of rewarding long 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:23.599 term relationships, so a match is really to machiavellian in 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:26.760 a way, or to calculating. I mean, I I was 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:29.760 reading about this, and of course I've read a lot 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:31.880 about your work in the past, Adam, because this is 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:34.760 not our first Rodeos, as we know in terms of 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:38.560 doing an interview together. But I was thinking that I'm 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:40.880 a taker and it made me feel bad. What do 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:44.440 you think I do? I actually do I do? Because 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:48.200 I don't know. No taker ever says that. Really. Well, 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:52.320 then maybe I'm just a highly self critical, perfectionistic weirdo, 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:54.320 because that that could be true too. But as I 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:58.240 read about it, I thought, I don't give enough, and 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:01.359 I don't know. It seems to me you have to. 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:04.600 You can't always be a giver, and there are times 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:07.320 where you have to be a taker, right. I don't 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:09.560 think that's I mean, I think I'm like exhibit A 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:11.920 of how you're not a taker, by the way, because 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:14.880 you've been extraordinarily generous to me over the course of 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:17.360 my career in many ways, and I'm not the only one. 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:20.480 So I think to Adam's point, if you were really 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:24.960 a taker, you you wouldn't be self aware enough introspective 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:28.120 enough to even raise that criticism. Do you think you're 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:31.360 too transactional. I'm not transactional, but I do think I 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:35.560 sometimes am demanding, and I do tend to blame other people. 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:40.920 I tend to feel like other people's inadequacy or kind 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:44.240 of laziness or whatever that I get mad about that. 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:46.040 But you know, I think this is something I need 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:53.080 to discuss. I think I don't think those things are contradictory, though, 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:55.640 I mean, I think you could be. You could set 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:58.520 high expectations for your colleagues while at the same time 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:02.360 being a generous boss. Totally agree, So that's hard to balance, though, 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:04.960 I think Adam, isn't it Well, I don't know. Look, 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:10.160 I'm not a therapist, but that ahead I'm lying down. 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:14.840 Please continue perfect. So the first thing is everything you said, Katie, 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:17.960 I would say, you're not a taker, You're a woman. Uh. 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:19.560 You know, we we know that women tend to be 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.320 much more self critical than men, and that, you know, 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:25.200 both personally and societally, tend to be held to much 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:28.040 higher expectations on you know, on how much giving they're 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:30.600 supposed to do. So you know that that fits the 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:33.400 pattern pretty clearly. But Secondly, I think what you just 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:37.160 said is that you hold people accountable for giving, and 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:39.360 you don't allow people to, you know, to get away 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:41.960 with being takers. There's nothing wrong with being a giver 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:44.600 who has very highest standards and expectations. And in fact, 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:47.800 that's what we see differentiate successful givers from failed givers 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:50.640 is you know, they have their own goals and they're ambitious, 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:52.839 and they say, look, I want to help other people, 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:55.000 but I'm not going to do that at my own expense. 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:58.120 All right, Well that'll be five dollars and the check 0:08:58.200 --> 0:08:59.920 is in the mail, Adam. So let me ask you, 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.160 sort of for our listeners, for kind of how this 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:06.880 can be applied. You give one example in your one 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:09.640 of your books about putting two different signs up at 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:13.400 hand washing stations in a hospital. One says hand hygiene 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:17.559 prevents you from catching diseases. Another reads hand hygiene prevents 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:21.559 patients from catching diseases. You measured the amount of soap 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:24.040 used at each station, and doctors and nurses at the 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:28.040 station where the sign referred to the patients use more 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:31.440 soap or hand sanitizer. Are you saying that sort of 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:36.240 altruism is motivating? Maybe so What's what's interesting about this 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:39.280 experiment is the medical safety experts were convinced that the 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:41.760 other sign would work. That you know, ultimately, if you 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:43.880 want to get doctors and nurses to wash their hands, 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:46.040 you have to remind them that it will prevent them 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:49.160 from getting sick. And you know, you could say, okay, 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:53.560 you know, maybe maybe then that didn't work, because you know, 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:57.640 ultimately these people are really altruistic. But our data tell 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:01.560 a slightly more complicated story, which is that nobody believes 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:03.880 that they're going to get sick. You know, we found 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:05.959 doctors who said things like, well, I'm a doctor, so 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:08.559 I'm protected, Like that makes any sense. I don't even 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:11.360 know what that means. But I think what what they 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:13.600 were getting at was, you know, either I had a 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:16.400 superior immune system to begin with, or I've developed one 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:19.120 over years in a hospital and you know, I'm exposed 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:21.720 all the time and I rarely get sick. And you know, 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:23.560 most of us tend to be over confident about our 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:25.920 own immunity. We don't want to believe that we're vulnerable, 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:29.560 whereas with patients, we know they're vulnerable by definition, and 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:31.680 we also know it's part of our job to keep 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.400 them healthy, and so it was a lot easier for 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:36.800 you know, doctors and nurses. I should say doctors, because 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:39.320 it was mostly doctors who weren't watching enough, you know, 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:41.320 who took that sign and said, all right, you know, 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:43.760 this is my responsibility. Even if I don't think that 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.880 I'm in need of, you know, extra hand hygiene, I 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:48.920 really wouldn't want to know that I got a patient six, 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.480 so I'll step up. You did another study that I've 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:53.959 I've referenced many times over the last couple of days, 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:56.360 as as I've sort of read up on you. Um 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:59.240 in a call center where you worked, you were twenty 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:01.600 two year old to a student, and you arranged for 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:05.360 call center workers to meet with a scholarship student who 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:10.600 benefited from their fundraising calls. And after meeting that student, 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:14.280 the average call center employee raised a hundred and forty 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:18.800 two percent more money. And so what are the conclusions 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:22.080 that you draw from that study and the others you've done, 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:25.160 and and how can our listeners apply them in their 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:28.000 own lives. You know, I went in expecting to do 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:31.280 something much more dramatic, you know, I thought, Okay, here 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:33.840 are these callers who you know, they raise all this 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:36.960 money and they have no idea where it goes. And 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:38.400 so I wanted to have, you know, a bunch of 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:41.320 different scholarship students come in and tell their stories. Have 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:43.280 the you know, the sports teams. This is at the 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:45.800 University of Michigan. I thought the football and basketball players 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:47.800 could come in and you know, talk about how that 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:50.520 revenue is so useful for uh, you know, for helping 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:53.160 their teams succeed, and have some faculty and staff talk 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.080 about salary benefits. And the manager said, I'll give you 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:58.800 five minutes. You can bring in one person. And I thought, 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:01.240 there's no way five minutes, you know, could could influence 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:05.040 anybody's motivation, But it really mattered, and after replicating it 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:09.200 eight different times, what happens is when most people walk 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:12.520 into a situation like fundraising, but any job, right, you 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:15.240 don't always know who benefits from your products or services, 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:18.520 and a huge part of what makes work meaningful. In fact, 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:20.960 the biggest part of what makes work meaningful is knowing 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:23.320 who benefits from your job and knowing that if your 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:26.400 job didn't exist, other people would be worse off. And 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:28.360 so you have a scholarship student come in and say, 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:30.760 you know, here's how your work changed my life. I 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:33.240 couldn't afford going to school, but because of the money 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:35.600 you raise, I'm able to be here. That shows you 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:37.760 that the time you spend it work really matters. That 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:41.000 your work is valued and appreciated. And that's especially important 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:43.280 if you work in a job where you're constantly interrupting 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:45.960 people's dinners and harassing them for money. Right to to 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:47.720 be able to say, look that you know that really 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:51.120 unpleasant process serves a higher purpose. I think we all 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:53.160 know that's motivating, but it turns out to be much 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:56.360 more powerful than we realize. That's interesting. I think it's 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:59.480 helpful for people to kind of really look at the 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:02.200 over arch same reasons they do what they do. And 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:06.679 sometimes it just means shifting your point of view about 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:08.880 the worth of your job, right, I mean, you don't 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:11.360 necessarily have to have a scholarship student come and talk 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:15.160 to you. Sometimes it just means really thinking about why 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:18.160 you do what you do and the potential impact it has, 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:21.280 right Adam. You know, Katie wouldn't have believed that until 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:24.240 we ran some follow up experiments. But we we got 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:26.760 that exact question, which over and over again, which was 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:28.520 you know, what what if I don't get to meet 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:30.440 my scholarship student. You know, I don't know my clients 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:33.160 or customers or users, or you know what if I 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:35.240 don't have those people, right? What if I have an 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.640 internal job? And what we did was we had employees 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:41.960 keep journals just reflecting on who benefited from their jobs 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:44.120 every day and how they made a difference that day. 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:45.960 And we had them do it for four days, just 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:48.800 a few minutes per day, and we found a significant 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:52.679 increase in motivation after that. So just reflecting exactly as 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:54.760 you've said on you know what, how does my job 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:58.640 matter who benefits from it is enough to rejuvenate your motivation. 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:01.680 And you're definitely praed is saying what you preach here 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:04.120 and and this is featured in all of the articles 0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:07.200 about you. So just so our listeners get a sense, 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:10.120 how many emails per week do you think you get 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:12.839 from people asking for a favor? And how many of 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:18.240 those emails do you respond to? No, Uh, I'm afraid 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:23.000 to count. I'd have to guess in the hundreds. At least, 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:24.960 I was gonna say it's it's probably over a hundred 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.600 a day, And uh, I respond to all of them 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:30.120 except for the occasional ones that make me think that 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:34.720 the person is is maybe not entirely mentally stable. So 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:38.680 over a hundred requests for a favor every day and 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:41.840 you respond to every single one, I feel like that's 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:44.040 my job. It's I mean, it's a huge part of 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:47.600 why I became a professor. But also I'm just one 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:51.400 of those people who can't stand leaving an email unanswered. Right, 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:54.200 So somebody writes back and says you're welcome, and I say, oh, 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:56.800 it's no problem, and then I just I can't let 0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:00.000 it go. And how is that not a massive distry 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.680 action and also a massive hit to your productivity? Well 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:06.320 there are days when it is, but I feel like 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:08.000 it's you know, a lot of the emails I get 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:11.720 are you know, questions about like my favorite emails are 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:14.280 have you ever seen a study on? And it makes 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:16.520 me feel like all these hours I spend reading you know, 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:20.480 evidence about work in psychology might actually be useful to someone. Uh, 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:22.560 And so you know, it gives me a chance to 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:25.200 sort of to translate a little bit of of what 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:28.360 I'm reading into language that people might find relevant to 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:31.800 their everyday work. And you know, it also just reminds 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:34.360 me that the work I'm doing does have an impact 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:36.680 on others, right, so I get to live that. That's 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:40.520 my version of the scholarship student often outside the classroom, 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:44.000 And I think the other thing is that, you know, 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:47.040 in some cases it's a it's a great sort of break. 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:49.160 When I'm working on a hard problem, or when I 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:51.160 can't figure out sort of how to how to tell 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:54.600 a story or analyze the data set, I go over 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:55.920 in my email and I say, all right, if I 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:57.720 can help a few people in the next few minutes, 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:00.240 then maybe I'll come back with some fresh inside or 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:02.840 at least a little bit of extra energy to, you know, 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:04.880 to pour back into the work that I'm trying to do. 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:07.600 Other than asking about studies, I mean, what other kinds 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:09.640 of questions do you get? Because I know there's a 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:12.200 constant stream of students coming in and out of your 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:15.400 office on a regular basis, what are they asking you? 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:18.920 Often they're looking for advice. So sometimes it's you know, 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:21.680 how do I run this club that I'm in charge of? 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:23.920 Or you know, how do I do a better job 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.440 you know, improving my interview skills or my job application 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:30.640 cover letters. In a lot of cases, it's career advice 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:33.360 which I'm really reluctant to give. You know, I feel 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:35.720 like it's it's hard to tell somebody what they should 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:37.960 do with their life, and so often what I find 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.040 myself doing is, you know, recommending a bunch of books 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.720 and articles and then asking a bunch of questions that 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:45.360 I hope will help them reflect on, you know, some 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:47.960 of the directions they haven't considered before. You know, what 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:51.640 is the best way to really figure it out? Because 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:55.200 I think career planning and placement offices that many of 0:16:55.240 --> 0:17:00.280 these colleges and universities are woefully inadequate, and with all 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:02.720 due respect to the wonderful work that's being done at 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:06.040 universities across the country, I do feel like this is 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:10.200 an area which has much room for improvement. Yeah, it's 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:12.160 a look, it's a hard job, right As someone who 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:15.520 gets asked for career advice a lot, it's incredibly difficult 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:18.679 to figure out, you know, exactly where somebody should go 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:21.119 and what steps they should take to plan their you know, 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:25.000 their twenty or thirty or forty years ahead. But I 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:26.960 think one of the one of the biggest mistakes that 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:28.760 I see students make, which I think I'd love to 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:32.840 see career officers addressed more directly. Is it is something 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:34.840 that I raised with Cheryl Sandberg last time she was 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:38.840 in town. Uh. She was, she was speaking to our students, 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:40.800 and you know, I teat up a bunch of questions 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:43.119 for her, and one of them was, you know, what, 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:45.320 what should my five your career plan look like or 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:47.880 ten year career plan? And she said, you should never 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:49.960 have a career plan this five or ten years ahead. 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:51.720 She said, if I had had one of those and 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:54.080 never would have ended up in tech because when I 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:58.720 graduated from college, Mark Zuckerberg was in diapers. That's a 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:02.080 lovely thought. It is right. It shows you how quickly 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:04.520 the world changes. And I think that if you end 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:06.920 up trying to chart too far ahead, then you lock 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:10.000 yourself into, you know, a path that's either not going 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:12.520 to exist or is going to radically change in the 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.000 next few years. What I like to see students do 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:18.640 is to say, look, my first job, my whole objective 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:21.679 should be to maximize my own learning. So choose the 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:23.400 job that you think is going to teach you the most, 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:25.919 or the group of people that you can learn the 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:28.000 most from. I think that's the best way to begin 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:30.440 planning your career and it will open lots of ideas 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:32.560 up about where to go next. At the same time, 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:35.760 the wrap on millennials is that they're so parapatetic and 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:38.879 they don't stay at one place for any length of time. 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:43.840 They're flighty, they use t Yeah, they're entitled and and 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:47.399 so is this just a new way of working, jumping 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:50.119 from place to place to place that us old geezers 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:52.720 have got to get used to. I think so. But 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:55.080 I wouldn't. I wouldn't see it as a millennial problem. 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:58.360 I think, you know, it's it's actually, uh, it's it's 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:01.480 a change societally, right as opposed of generationally, you know, 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:04.399 whatever the statistic is that you've heard, you know often 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:06.919 I read that people are going to have eleven or twelve, 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:09.320 you know, different careers if you look at all the 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:11.840 different jobs they'll take. I think that miss is the 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:15.840 larger point, which is we see that the employment contract 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:18.639 has changed. It used to be the case that you 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:20.920 could sign up with the company and know that you're 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:22.600 going to stay there with it for thirty five years 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:25.520 and they would have your back and without will employment 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:28.600 and you know, with with so much more mobility, but 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:32.320 also so much more volatility. You can't trust anymore that 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:35.159 the workplace you start your career has any shot of 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:38.200 even being around your career, let alone we'll want to 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:41.920 keep you around. I remember giving graduation addresses as far 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:44.800 back as the nineties saying the era of working for 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:47.600 one company getting a gold watch and a pension at 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:50.720 the end of many years is gone. I think it's 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:53.399