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Speaker 1: Hi Katie, Hi Brian, Katie. Did you know that we

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Speaker 1: spend a quarter of our lives at work? Although I

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Speaker 1: think in your case it's probably more than that. I

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Speaker 1: was going to say a quarter. How about three quarters? That? Well,

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Speaker 1: you remember I told Kara swish or work is like

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Speaker 1: oxygen for me. I don't want to asphyxiate you sometimes.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you'd like to every now and then. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: today's guest, Adam Grant, is clearly right up your alley.

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Speaker 1: He's an organizational psychologist. We talked about what that means.

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Speaker 1: He's a very popular, warton professor and an author, and

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Speaker 1: he's one of the most productive people that you'll ever meet,

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Speaker 1: so productive it's annoying at times. He was still in

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Speaker 1: his twenties when he got tenure at the University of

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Speaker 1: Pennsylvania's Wharton School, and by the time he was thirty five,

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Speaker 1: he had written three, yes, three best selling books and

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Speaker 1: he's thirty six. By the way, now, talk about making

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Speaker 1: us I'll feel like terrible underachievers, right Brian. For sure? Listeners,

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Speaker 1: you might also remember Adam Grant from our episode with

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Speaker 1: Cheryl Sandberg, which is number twenty six. In case you

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Speaker 1: want to hear it again, that's right. Adam and Cheryl

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Speaker 1: co wrote the book Option B, which is about facing

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Speaker 1: adversity and building resilience, and I highly recommend it for

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Speaker 1: anyone who's had to deal with setbacks. And for this conversation,

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Speaker 1: we chat with Adam about all kinds of things, the

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Speaker 1: different work styles of employers and employees. Are you a giver,

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Speaker 1: a taker or a matcher? By the way, it'll be

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Speaker 1: interesting for you to look at your own style what

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Speaker 1: makes a good workplace, which is the subject of his

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Speaker 1: new podcast called work Life. And also we asked Adam

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Speaker 1: why he got into the field of organizational psychology and

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Speaker 1: what the heck does that mean anyway. Yeah, I'm still

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Speaker 1: trying to figure it out. But as far as I

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Speaker 1: can tell, my job is to fix other people's jobs.

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Speaker 1: So I take all the cool insights that we pick

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Speaker 1: up in social science about how we can, you know,

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Speaker 1: improve motivation and make better decisions and fight group think,

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Speaker 1: and I try to design workplaces that suck a little

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Speaker 1: bit less. Well, when it comes to workplaces, at least

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Speaker 1: the ones that I've experienced and certainly read about, it

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Speaker 1: seems like you must be a very busy guy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's really convenient that there are so many bad

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Speaker 1: leaders and managers out there, because it means I have

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Speaker 1: a lot of work to do. Convenient but also shocking.

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Speaker 1: Why are there so few good leaders? What are we

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Speaker 1: doing wrong? Well? I think the job has become less

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Speaker 1: and less attractive, if you know, if you think about

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Speaker 1: the public scrutiny, if you think about you know, most

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Speaker 1: leaders are in a position where they might not get

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Speaker 1: to stay for even a year, let alone a few years.

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Speaker 1: I think we we've done a very poor job designing

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Speaker 1: leadership roles where people say, look, I'm gonna have a

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Speaker 1: chance to to really take over and try to fix

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Speaker 1: an organization for the long term, and you know, focus

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Speaker 1: on vision and mission and innovation as opposed to just

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Speaker 1: being accountable to a bunch of shareholders. And based on

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Speaker 1: your research, what are the characteristics than make a good leader?

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Speaker 1: It's easier to make a list of the characteristics of

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Speaker 1: a bad leader, Isn't that part of the problem. I

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Speaker 1: think we could all make this actually, but you know,

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Speaker 1: I think you can flip those and say, look, you know,

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Speaker 1: when I when I look at leaders, there there are

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Speaker 1: three basics that I always look for. One is that

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Speaker 1: you know, I would think about them as givers, not

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Speaker 1: takers right there. They're here to make the group and

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Speaker 1: the organization successful as opposed to enrich themselves too. They

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Speaker 1: think about long term decision making as opposed to short

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Speaker 1: term pressures, and the champion visions that are going to

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Speaker 1: you know, serve a broader interest over decades as opposed

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Speaker 1: to quarters and then three. They actually care about their

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Speaker 1: people and put their people first as opposed to you know,

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Speaker 1: you hear a lot of well, I put my customers first.

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Speaker 1: And the sad thing is that, you know, the way

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Speaker 1: you treat your employees actually spills over to affect your customers.

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Speaker 1: So it's pretty hard to run a customer friendly organization. Uh,

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Speaker 1: if you don't care about your own employees first and foremost.

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Speaker 1: Well and to that point, and your first one about

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Speaker 1: givers and not takers, you know, your first book makes

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Speaker 1: the case very powerfully that helping others without expecting anything

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Speaker 1: in return is actually the best way to advance your career. Um,

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Speaker 1: which Hugh Kumbaya adam, I mean, that really cuts against

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Speaker 1: conventional wisdom that actually one of the most selfish things

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Speaker 1: you can do is to is to be generous um,

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Speaker 1: can you tell us a little bit about that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it's you know, it's not true for every person

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Speaker 1: and every job, but on average, you know, when when

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Speaker 1: I've studied givers versus takers, so you know, are you

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Speaker 1: constantly asking what can you do for me? Or what

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Speaker 1: can I do for you? The givers tend to struggle

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Speaker 1: more in the short term, so they make the least

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Speaker 1: productive engineers, the medical students with the lowest grades, and

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Speaker 1: the sales people with the lowest revenue. And it's not

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Speaker 1: hard to figure out why that would be right, because

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Speaker 1: you know, if you're constantly doing other people's jobs, you

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Speaker 1: run out of time and energy to get your own

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Speaker 1: work done. But in the long run, as quarter turn

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Speaker 1: into years, what we see is that givers build more trust,

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Speaker 1: they have stronger relationships and reputations. But they also learn

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Speaker 1: more because the time you spend solving other people's problems

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Speaker 1: actually puts you in a better position to solve the

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Speaker 1: organization's problems. It gives you extra knowledge and scale and expertise,

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Speaker 1: and so you know, ultimately, the people who end up

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Speaker 1: achieving the greatest success are the ones who are motivated

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Speaker 1: to help other people succeed. Isn't though, aren't most people

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Speaker 1: are effective leaders a combo platter, Adam, I know that

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Speaker 1: you say they're givers, takers, and matchers before we get

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Speaker 1: to my combo pop platter question, what is a matcher?

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Speaker 1: So most people don't want to be peer givers or

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Speaker 1: peer takers. They're afraid of being too selfish and too generous.

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Speaker 1: So they say, all right, I'm gonna play it safe

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Speaker 1: and I'll become a matcher, which is, I'll do something

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Speaker 1: for you if you do something for me. It's all

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Speaker 1: about fairness, quid pro quo. Is that good or bad?

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Speaker 1: You make it sound bad, You know it's It's a

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Speaker 1: great way to play it safe. The problem is, though,

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Speaker 1: that you become too transactional, and when you help people

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Speaker 1: it feels like you don't really care about them, You

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Speaker 1: were just helping them to get something back. And then

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Speaker 1: also you end up helping the wrong people, only the

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Speaker 1: people who you think are strategic. But you both know

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Speaker 1: better than I do. We cannot predict who's going to

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Speaker 1: end up where, and so if you only help the

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Speaker 1: people that you think are going to serve your own interests,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna miss out on a lot of rewarding long

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Speaker 1: term relationships, so a match is really to machiavellian in

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Speaker 1: a way, or to calculating. I mean, I I was

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Speaker 1: reading about this, and of course I've read a lot

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Speaker 1: about your work in the past, Adam, because this is

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Speaker 1: not our first Rodeos, as we know in terms of

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Speaker 1: doing an interview together. But I was thinking that I'm

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Speaker 1: a taker and it made me feel bad. What do

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Speaker 1: you think I do? I actually do I do? Because

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Speaker 1: I don't know. No taker ever says that. Really. Well,

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Speaker 1: then maybe I'm just a highly self critical, perfectionistic weirdo,

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Speaker 1: because that that could be true too. But as I

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Speaker 1: read about it, I thought, I don't give enough, and

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Speaker 1: I don't know. It seems to me you have to.

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Speaker 1: You can't always be a giver, and there are times

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Speaker 1: where you have to be a taker, right. I don't

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Speaker 1: think that's I mean, I think I'm like exhibit A

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Speaker 1: of how you're not a taker, by the way, because

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Speaker 1: you've been extraordinarily generous to me over the course of

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Speaker 1: my career in many ways, and I'm not the only one.

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Speaker 1: So I think to Adam's point, if you were really

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Speaker 1: a taker, you you wouldn't be self aware enough introspective

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Speaker 1: enough to even raise that criticism. Do you think you're

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Speaker 1: too transactional. I'm not transactional, but I do think I

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Speaker 1: sometimes am demanding, and I do tend to blame other people.

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Speaker 1: I tend to feel like other people's inadequacy or kind

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Speaker 1: of laziness or whatever that I get mad about that.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I think this is something I need

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Speaker 1: to discuss. I think I don't think those things are contradictory, though,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think you could be. You could set

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Speaker 1: high expectations for your colleagues while at the same time

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Speaker 1: being a generous boss. Totally agree, So that's hard to balance, though,

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Speaker 1: I think Adam, isn't it Well, I don't know. Look,

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Speaker 1: I'm not a therapist, but that ahead I'm lying down.

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Speaker 1: Please continue perfect. So the first thing is everything you said, Katie,

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Speaker 1: I would say, you're not a taker, You're a woman. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, we we know that women tend to be

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Speaker 1: much more self critical than men, and that, you know,

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Speaker 1: both personally and societally, tend to be held to much

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Speaker 1: higher expectations on you know, on how much giving they're

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Speaker 1: supposed to do. So you know that that fits the

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Speaker 1: pattern pretty clearly. But Secondly, I think what you just

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Speaker 1: said is that you hold people accountable for giving, and

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Speaker 1: you don't allow people to, you know, to get away

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Speaker 1: with being takers. There's nothing wrong with being a giver

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Speaker 1: who has very highest standards and expectations. And in fact,

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Speaker 1: that's what we see differentiate successful givers from failed givers

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Speaker 1: is you know, they have their own goals and they're ambitious,

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Speaker 1: and they say, look, I want to help other people,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not going to do that at my own expense.

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Speaker 1: All right, Well that'll be five dollars and the check

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Speaker 1: is in the mail, Adam. So let me ask you,

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Speaker 1: sort of for our listeners, for kind of how this

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Speaker 1: can be applied. You give one example in your one

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Speaker 1: of your books about putting two different signs up at

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Speaker 1: hand washing stations in a hospital. One says hand hygiene

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Speaker 1: prevents you from catching diseases. Another reads hand hygiene prevents

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Speaker 1: patients from catching diseases. You measured the amount of soap

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Speaker 1: used at each station, and doctors and nurses at the

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Speaker 1: station where the sign referred to the patients use more

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Speaker 1: soap or hand sanitizer. Are you saying that sort of

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Speaker 1: altruism is motivating? Maybe so What's what's interesting about this

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Speaker 1: experiment is the medical safety experts were convinced that the

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Speaker 1: other sign would work. That you know, ultimately, if you

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Speaker 1: want to get doctors and nurses to wash their hands,

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Speaker 1: you have to remind them that it will prevent them

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Speaker 1: from getting sick. And you know, you could say, okay,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe maybe then that didn't work, because you know,

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Speaker 1: ultimately these people are really altruistic. But our data tell

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Speaker 1: a slightly more complicated story, which is that nobody believes

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Speaker 1: that they're going to get sick. You know, we found

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Speaker 1: doctors who said things like, well, I'm a doctor, so

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Speaker 1: I'm protected, Like that makes any sense. I don't even

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Speaker 1: know what that means. But I think what what they

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Speaker 1: were getting at was, you know, either I had a

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Speaker 1: superior immune system to begin with, or I've developed one

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Speaker 1: over years in a hospital and you know, I'm exposed

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Speaker 1: all the time and I rarely get sick. And you know,

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Speaker 1: most of us tend to be over confident about our

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Speaker 1: own immunity. We don't want to believe that we're vulnerable,

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Speaker 1: whereas with patients, we know they're vulnerable by definition, and

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Speaker 1: we also know it's part of our job to keep

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Speaker 1: them healthy, and so it was a lot easier for

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Speaker 1: you know, doctors and nurses. I should say doctors, because

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Speaker 1: it was mostly doctors who weren't watching enough, you know,

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Speaker 1: who took that sign and said, all right, you know,

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Speaker 1: this is my responsibility. Even if I don't think that

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Speaker 1: I'm in need of, you know, extra hand hygiene, I

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Speaker 1: really wouldn't want to know that I got a patient six,

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Speaker 1: so I'll step up. You did another study that I've

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Speaker 1: I've referenced many times over the last couple of days,

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Speaker 1: as as I've sort of read up on you. Um

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Speaker 1: in a call center where you worked, you were twenty

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Speaker 1: two year old to a student, and you arranged for

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Speaker 1: call center workers to meet with a scholarship student who

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Speaker 1: benefited from their fundraising calls. And after meeting that student,

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Speaker 1: the average call center employee raised a hundred and forty

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Speaker 1: two percent more money. And so what are the conclusions

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Speaker 1: that you draw from that study and the others you've done,

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Speaker 1: and and how can our listeners apply them in their

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Speaker 1: own lives. You know, I went in expecting to do

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Speaker 1: something much more dramatic, you know, I thought, Okay, here

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Speaker 1: are these callers who you know, they raise all this

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Speaker 1: money and they have no idea where it goes. And

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Speaker 1: so I wanted to have, you know, a bunch of

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Speaker 1: different scholarship students come in and tell their stories. Have

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Speaker 1: the you know, the sports teams. This is at the

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Speaker 1: University of Michigan. I thought the football and basketball players

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Speaker 1: could come in and you know, talk about how that

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Speaker 1: revenue is so useful for uh, you know, for helping

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Speaker 1: their teams succeed, and have some faculty and staff talk

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Speaker 1: about salary benefits. And the manager said, I'll give you

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Speaker 1: five minutes. You can bring in one person. And I thought,

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Speaker 1: there's no way five minutes, you know, could could influence

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Speaker 1: anybody's motivation, But it really mattered, and after replicating it

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Speaker 1: eight different times, what happens is when most people walk

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Speaker 1: into a situation like fundraising, but any job, right, you

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Speaker 1: don't always know who benefits from your products or services,

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Speaker 1: and a huge part of what makes work meaningful. In fact,

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Speaker 1: the biggest part of what makes work meaningful is knowing

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Speaker 1: who benefits from your job and knowing that if your

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Speaker 1: job didn't exist, other people would be worse off. And

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Speaker 1: so you have a scholarship student come in and say,

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Speaker 1: you know, here's how your work changed my life. I

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Speaker 1: couldn't afford going to school, but because of the money

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Speaker 1: you raise, I'm able to be here. That shows you

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Speaker 1: that the time you spend it work really matters. That

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Speaker 1: your work is valued and appreciated. And that's especially important

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Speaker 1: if you work in a job where you're constantly interrupting

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Speaker 1: people's dinners and harassing them for money. Right to to

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Speaker 1: be able to say, look that you know that really

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Speaker 1: unpleasant process serves a higher purpose. I think we all

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Speaker 1: know that's motivating, but it turns out to be much

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Speaker 1: more powerful than we realize. That's interesting. I think it's

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Speaker 1: helpful for people to kind of really look at the

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Speaker 1: over arch same reasons they do what they do. And

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Speaker 1: sometimes it just means shifting your point of view about

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Speaker 1: the worth of your job, right, I mean, you don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily have to have a scholarship student come and talk

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Speaker 1: to you. Sometimes it just means really thinking about why

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Speaker 1: you do what you do and the potential impact it has,

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Speaker 1: right Adam. You know, Katie wouldn't have believed that until

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Speaker 1: we ran some follow up experiments. But we we got

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Speaker 1: that exact question, which over and over again, which was

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Speaker 1: you know, what what if I don't get to meet

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Speaker 1: my scholarship student. You know, I don't know my clients

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Speaker 1: or customers or users, or you know what if I

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Speaker 1: don't have those people, right? What if I have an

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Speaker 1: internal job? And what we did was we had employees

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Speaker 1: keep journals just reflecting on who benefited from their jobs

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Speaker 1: every day and how they made a difference that day.

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Speaker 1: And we had them do it for four days, just

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Speaker 1: a few minutes per day, and we found a significant

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Speaker 1: increase in motivation after that. So just reflecting exactly as

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Speaker 1: you've said on you know what, how does my job

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Speaker 1: matter who benefits from it is enough to rejuvenate your motivation.

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Speaker 1: And you're definitely praed is saying what you preach here

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Speaker 1: and and this is featured in all of the articles

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Speaker 1: about you. So just so our listeners get a sense,

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Speaker 1: how many emails per week do you think you get

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Speaker 1: from people asking for a favor? And how many of

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Speaker 1: those emails do you respond to? No, Uh, I'm afraid

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Speaker 1: to count. I'd have to guess in the hundreds. At least,

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say it's it's probably over a hundred

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Speaker 1: a day, And uh, I respond to all of them

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Speaker 1: except for the occasional ones that make me think that

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Speaker 1: the person is is maybe not entirely mentally stable. So

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Speaker 1: over a hundred requests for a favor every day and

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Speaker 1: you respond to every single one, I feel like that's

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Speaker 1: my job. It's I mean, it's a huge part of

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Speaker 1: why I became a professor. But also I'm just one

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Speaker 1: of those people who can't stand leaving an email unanswered. Right,

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Speaker 1: So somebody writes back and says you're welcome, and I say, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's no problem, and then I just I can't let

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Speaker 1: it go. And how is that not a massive distry

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Speaker 1: action and also a massive hit to your productivity? Well

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Speaker 1: there are days when it is, but I feel like

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Speaker 1: it's you know, a lot of the emails I get

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Speaker 1: are you know, questions about like my favorite emails are

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Speaker 1: have you ever seen a study on? And it makes

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Speaker 1: me feel like all these hours I spend reading you know,

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Speaker 1: evidence about work in psychology might actually be useful to someone. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And so you know, it gives me a chance to

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Speaker 1: sort of to translate a little bit of of what

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Speaker 1: I'm reading into language that people might find relevant to

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Speaker 1: their everyday work. And you know, it also just reminds

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Speaker 1: me that the work I'm doing does have an impact

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Speaker 1: on others, right, so I get to live that. That's

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Speaker 1: my version of the scholarship student often outside the classroom,

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Speaker 1: And I think the other thing is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: in some cases it's a it's a great sort of break.

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Speaker 1: When I'm working on a hard problem, or when I

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Speaker 1: can't figure out sort of how to how to tell

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Speaker 1: a story or analyze the data set, I go over

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Speaker 1: in my email and I say, all right, if I

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Speaker 1: can help a few people in the next few minutes,

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Speaker 1: then maybe I'll come back with some fresh inside or

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Speaker 1: at least a little bit of extra energy to, you know,

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Speaker 1: to pour back into the work that I'm trying to do.

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Speaker 1: Other than asking about studies, I mean, what other kinds

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Speaker 1: of questions do you get? Because I know there's a

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Speaker 1: constant stream of students coming in and out of your

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Speaker 1: office on a regular basis, what are they asking you?

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Speaker 1: Often they're looking for advice. So sometimes it's you know,

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Speaker 1: how do I run this club that I'm in charge of?

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Speaker 1: Or you know, how do I do a better job

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Speaker 1: you know, improving my interview skills or my job application

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Speaker 1: cover letters. In a lot of cases, it's career advice

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Speaker 1: which I'm really reluctant to give. You know, I feel

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Speaker 1: like it's it's hard to tell somebody what they should

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Speaker 1: do with their life, and so often what I find

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Speaker 1: myself doing is, you know, recommending a bunch of books

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Speaker 1: and articles and then asking a bunch of questions that

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Speaker 1: I hope will help them reflect on, you know, some

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Speaker 1: of the directions they haven't considered before. You know, what

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Speaker 1: is the best way to really figure it out? Because

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Speaker 1: I think career planning and placement offices that many of

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Speaker 1: these colleges and universities are woefully inadequate, and with all

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Speaker 1: due respect to the wonderful work that's being done at

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Speaker 1: universities across the country, I do feel like this is

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Speaker 1: an area which has much room for improvement. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: a look, it's a hard job, right As someone who

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Speaker 1: gets asked for career advice a lot, it's incredibly difficult

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Speaker 1: to figure out, you know, exactly where somebody should go

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Speaker 1: and what steps they should take to plan their you know,

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Speaker 1: their twenty or thirty or forty years ahead. But I

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Speaker 1: think one of the one of the biggest mistakes that

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Speaker 1: I see students make, which I think I'd love to

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Speaker 1: see career officers addressed more directly. Is it is something

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Speaker 1: that I raised with Cheryl Sandberg last time she was

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Speaker 1: in town. Uh. She was, she was speaking to our students,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I teat up a bunch of questions

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Speaker 1: for her, and one of them was, you know, what,

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Speaker 1: what should my five your career plan look like or

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Speaker 1: ten year career plan? And she said, you should never

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Speaker 1: have a career plan this five or ten years ahead.

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Speaker 1: She said, if I had had one of those and

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Speaker 1: never would have ended up in tech because when I

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Speaker 1: graduated from college, Mark Zuckerberg was in diapers. That's a

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Speaker 1: lovely thought. It is right. It shows you how quickly

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Speaker 1: the world changes. And I think that if you end

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Speaker 1: up trying to chart too far ahead, then you lock

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Speaker 1: yourself into, you know, a path that's either not going

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Speaker 1: to exist or is going to radically change in the

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Speaker 1: next few years. What I like to see students do

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Speaker 1: is to say, look, my first job, my whole objective

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Speaker 1: should be to maximize my own learning. So choose the

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Speaker 1: job that you think is going to teach you the most,

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Speaker 1: or the group of people that you can learn the

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Speaker 1: most from. I think that's the best way to begin

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Speaker 1: planning your career and it will open lots of ideas

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Speaker 1: up about where to go next. At the same time,

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Speaker 1: the wrap on millennials is that they're so parapatetic and

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Speaker 1: they don't stay at one place for any length of time.

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Speaker 1: They're flighty, they use t Yeah, they're entitled and and

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Speaker 1: so is this just a new way of working, jumping

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Speaker 1: from place to place to place that us old geezers

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Speaker 1: have got to get used to. I think so. But

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't. I wouldn't see it as a millennial problem.

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, it's it's actually, uh, it's it's

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Speaker 1: a change societally, right as opposed of generationally, you know,

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Speaker 1: whatever the statistic is that you've heard, you know often

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Speaker 1: I read that people are going to have eleven or twelve,

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Speaker 1: you know, different careers if you look at all the

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Speaker 1: different jobs they'll take. I think that miss is the

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Speaker 1: larger point, which is we see that the employment contract

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Speaker 1: has changed. It used to be the case that you

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Speaker 1: could sign up with the company and know that you're

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Speaker 1: going to stay there with it for thirty five years

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Speaker 1: and they would have your back and without will employment

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Speaker 1: and you know, with with so much more mobility, but

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Speaker 1: also so much more volatility. You can't trust anymore that

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Speaker 1: the workplace you start your career has any shot of

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Speaker 1: even being around your career, let alone we'll want to

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Speaker 1: keep you around. I remember giving graduation addresses as far

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Speaker 1: back as the nineties saying the era of working for

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Speaker 1: one company getting a gold watch and a pension at

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Speaker 1: the end of many years is gone. I think it's

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Speaker 1: important to point out that companies are not loyal to

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Speaker 1: employees either, so it's not as if it's just a

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Speaker 1: one way street there on the disloyalty front. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think think that's so important. And you know, at some

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Speaker 1: level I see that as employer driven, right, So you

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Speaker 1: know that it started when when people stopped trusting that

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Speaker 1: their employer would be loyal to them, and that activates

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Speaker 1: a very basic matching response, right, whether you're a give

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Speaker 1: her a taker and match her by default to say,

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Speaker 1: all right, you know, if this company is not going

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Speaker 1: to take care of me, I don't owe them the

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Speaker 1: same commitment. Back, it's time to take a quick break

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Speaker 1: to hear from our sponsors. Will be back with Adam

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Speaker 1: Grant right after this, and now let's get on with

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Speaker 1: the show. Went back to Adam Grant, Shall we Brian, Yes,

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Speaker 1: we shall, Kitty. So, Adam, I want to go back

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Speaker 1: and give people a sense of how you got into

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Speaker 1: all of this, and also just how weird and compulsive

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Speaker 1: you are. And I say, this is a weird and

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Speaker 1: compulsive person myself. So you you, You're welcome. You grew

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Speaker 1: up in the verbs of Detroit. The New York Times

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Speaker 1: describe your childhood, and I think a very memorable way.

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Speaker 1: He was an upbeat boy, though socially awkward and burdened

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Speaker 1: by numerous food allergies and strong aversions two haircuts, to

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Speaker 1: blue jeans, to chocolate. He felt things deeply. Those aversions

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Speaker 1: were matched by equally consuming passions, which, anyway, I wish

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Speaker 1: I had an aversion to chocolate. Is that? Do you

428
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,160
Speaker 1: think it's still a fair way to describe you? Oh?

429
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,520
Speaker 1: I think some of it is fair. Looks. Sue Dominous

430
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 1: is such a gifted writer. And you know, I had

431
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 1: an editor who said, reading about yourself is a little

432
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,760
Speaker 1: bit like looking in a fun house mirror. But you know,

433
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 1: I always thought of a fun house mirror is distorting you.

434
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,040
Speaker 1: But when I read this, I said, all right, there.

435
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 1: You know there's some things that I wouldn't agree with

436
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,360
Speaker 1: the characterization of of course, there are also some things

437
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,159
Speaker 1: that are way too glowing, and so you know, I

438
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 1: don't I don't quite know where to come down on

439
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,400
Speaker 1: most of it. On that part, I hope I'm less

440
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 1: socially awkward than I was then. You know, I was

441
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 1: sort of the kid with like a curly frow and

442
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:07,040
Speaker 1: always wearing sweatpants. And you know, I remember very Napoleon Dynamite. Yeah,

443
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,960
Speaker 1: I was. I was definitely more enthusiastic than Napoleon Dynamite.

444
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,520
Speaker 1: But you know, I think it took it took me

445
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 1: a while to figure out that being liked it was

446
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,719
Speaker 1: sometimes more important than being right. And what drove you

447
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:25,160
Speaker 1: to really focus on this area of study, because clearly

448
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 1: you're exceptional at it, Adam. I think you've been voted

449
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 1: the best teacher at Wharton six years in a row.

450
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 1: Your students adore you, your popular in the lecture circuit.

451
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 1: You My sister couldn't get into your class, ad Him.

452
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 1: I asked her about you because she got an MBA

453
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,640
Speaker 1: at Wharton and she said, oh, his class. And it's

454
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,919
Speaker 1: almost like the Yogi barrel line that nobody goes to

455
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,159
Speaker 1: that restaurant anymore because it's too crowded, she said, nobody

456
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,800
Speaker 1: goes to his lectures because they're too full. So so

457
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 1: what was it that drew you to this, because I

458
00:22:55,320 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 1: think that's probably illustrative of following your bliss as they say, yeah,

459
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 1: I think you know. I actually I was one of

460
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,399
Speaker 1: those college students who had no idea what I wanted

461
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 1: to do, and that actually was was one of my

462
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 1: biggest frustrations growing up. Hated getting the question what do

463
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 1: you want to be when you grow up? I really

464
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 1: didn't know. I knew that there were lots of things

465
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,400
Speaker 1: that I enjoyed doing, but I couldn't think of one

466
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 1: thing that I wanted to be. And so, you know,

467
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 1: I went through the first half of college just you know,

468
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 1: kind of fascinated by a psychology and how there was

469
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 1: so much knowledge collecting dust in journals that wasn't being

470
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 1: shared with people that might actually make their lives better

471
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 1: in some way, and so I wanted to do something

472
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,200
Speaker 1: with that. But it's not like there's a natural career

473
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 1: track for that unless you want to be a therapist,

474
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 1: which I knew I didn't. I wanted to sort of

475
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,159
Speaker 1: figure out how he could improve everyday choices, and um,

476
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: I went and took an organizational psychology class which was

477
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 1: offered at eight thirty am. You know, everyone would sort

478
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 1: of walk in like zombies, and we forgot how tired

479
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 1: we were during the class. It was this incredible professor,

480
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 1: Richard Hackman, who also didn't know what he wanted to

481
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 1: do with his career, so he took all the jobs

482
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 1: that he thought were interesting. He made a career out

483
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 1: of studying those. So, you know, first he he had

484
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 1: thought about being a basketball player because he was tall,

485
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 1: and he studied what made a basketball team win or lose.

486
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 1: And then he'd wanted wanted to be in music. He

487
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: thought about maybe kind of symphony work, so he went

488
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 1: and studied orchestra effectiveness. He thought about being a pilot,

489
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 1: so he studied airline cockpit crews. And I saw that

490
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,640
Speaker 1: and thought, what a cool way to live vicariously through

491
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: all these interesting jobs and try to figure out how

492
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 1: to make work better in the process. And I was hooked.

493
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 1: Aren't those high class problems? I was thinking about that?

494
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 1: You know, so many people can't afford to to explore

495
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 1: these different areas and really figure out their place in

496
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 1: the world. What would you say? To students who or

497
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 1: people in general who don't have that luxury, Well, I

498
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: don't think the problems are high class, right, So maybe

499
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 1: the problem of not knowing what you wanted doh is

500
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: and feeling like you have. So that's a high class solution.

501
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 1: Should say, yes, yeah, I think that's right. What you know,

502
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 1: what I would say to two people in any position

503
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 1: is that you know, so often we end up in

504
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 1: a job where the job description wasn't written for us.

505
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,199
Speaker 1: It was written for you know, somebody else who had

506
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,239
Speaker 1: the job before us, or it was written for you know,

507
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,199
Speaker 1: some generic idea of here's you know, here's what we

508
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 1: think a person is motivated by, and here's what we

509
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: think are you know, our people's strengths will be. Uh,

510
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,120
Speaker 1: you should do that because this is what we need

511
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 1: you to do. And when you study how people do

512
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 1: their jobs, very few people actually accept their job descriptions

513
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: exactly as they were written. They tinker with them. They

514
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 1: become sort of like many architects of their own jobs.

515
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 1: When we study this, have colleagues who call it job crafting.

516
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 1: It's the idea that you can redesign your own work

517
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: role to bring in some of your interests and your

518
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:47,199
Speaker 1: values and your skills that might be unused, And a

519
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 1: lot of people miss out on that opportunity because they

520
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: just take their job description as a given. And you know,

521
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 1: I think the first piece of advice would be to say,

522
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: take a step back and figure out what are the

523
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: strengths you have, what are the skills you want to master,

524
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 1: what are the passions you have that you don't get

525
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: to bring to work every day, and try to figure

526
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: out how those could be relevant to your team's mission

527
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 1: or your organization's goals, and then have a conversation with

528
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: your boss about whether there's a way to use their

529
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 1: skills or develop them. I was thinking a little bit

530
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,880
Speaker 1: about your hundred emails plus a day that you answer, Um,

531
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: how many hours a day do you work to get

532
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,479
Speaker 1: all the stuff done that you do? Well, it's different.

533
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: It's different now that that my wife and I have kids.

534
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 1: I think before that I probably averaged fifteen hour work

535
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: days for quite a few years. Now, I basically tried

536
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: to do all my work when our kids are at

537
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: school or asleep. So if you do the math, I

538
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 1: don't know, I probably work uh seventy hour week roughly now,

539
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 1: and and doesn't that lifestyle sort of cut against the

540
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: kind of Ariana Huffington's self care ethos that's so in

541
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: vogue now about digital detoxing and taking lots of time

542
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: off and getting eight hours of sleep every night, etcetera, etcetera.

543
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 1: Absolutely not so I've I've had I've had some fun

544
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: debase with Ariana about this, and I think the data support,

545
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: at least for for people like me, the way that

546
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,679
Speaker 1: I've I've chosen to live my life, which is I

547
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 1: have a colleague, Nancy Rothbard, who studied workaholics, and she

548
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 1: found that there are two kinds of workaholics. Uh. They're

549
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: they're basically stressed out workaholics, where they're constantly feeling you know,

550
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: these looming deadlines hanging over them and they feel obligated

551
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 1: to work and it's bad for them, you know, both

552
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 1: their physical health and their mental health. But there's another

553
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 1: group of people that are called engaged workaholics, who are

554
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 1: just intrinsically motivated by their work. They might see it

555
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 1: as a calling, uh, they might feel like it's deeply meaningful.

556
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 1: They might just really really enjoy it. And I'm one

557
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:46,880
Speaker 1: of those people. And if you look at the data,

558
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: working more doesn't make them less healthy. It actually seems

559
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: to contribute to their health, or a minimum, it doesn't

560
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,439
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't cost them anything. Sound familiar. I

561
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 1: feel like I'm a cross between the stressed out, looming

562
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 1: deadline crazy be scared to sit back and not you know,

563
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: be Idle, and somebody who's highly engaged in her work.

564
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: I wonder if part of that is is just a

565
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: function of being in the news and journalism world, that

566
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 1: it's hard to be a purely engaged workaholic because so

567
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 1: much of your job is dictated by by external forces. Possibly,

568
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: possibly we need to spend some more time together at

569
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 1: Obviously I have a lot of problems, But I wanted

570
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 1: to ask you about another book you wrote called Originals.

571
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: You talk about nonconformists and what are the lessons we

572
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 1: can learn from them? Yeah, so, you know, I I've

573
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: not I've not admitted this publicly very often, but I was.

574
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: I was actually digging a while back into the founding

575
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: of Harvard's first online social network, which, of course, you know,

576
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: everyone feels like they know the story of but there's

577
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: a backstory that most people don't know, which is this

578
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: is almost two decades ago. Now there was a small

579
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: group of college seniors who got into Harvard, and a

580
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: couple of them were were worried that they wouldn't have

581
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 1: any friends if they went, and so they started searching.

582
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,719
Speaker 1: At the time, it was America Online. They searched all

583
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: profiles to see if they could find, you know, future

584
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: members of their class and get to know them so

585
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: that they would arrive at college with some friends. And

586
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: they found a few people, and they started a little

587
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: email list, and every week they'd find a few more

588
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,479
Speaker 1: people and expand the list. By April, they had over

589
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: a hundred entering freshmen on the list, and when they

590
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: arrived at school in September, they had connected more than

591
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: an eighth of the freshman class online. And then those

592
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: those freshmen shut down their online social network because they said,

593
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: we already know each other face to face, like why

594
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: do we need an online connection? And they've lived with

595
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: deep regret ever since, because Mark Zuckerberg started Facebook five

596
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 1: years later in a dorm right down the street. And um,

597
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 1: I guess I know something about that regret, because I

598
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: was one of the co founders of that first online

599
00:29:53,760 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 1: social network. Wow, done, gun Dune, Think what you'd be

600
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: doing today? Adam. It was. It was. It was a

601
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: terrible decision. But the funny thing is never occurred to

602
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: any of us, you know that anyone would get any

603
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 1: use out of it. You know, once once you were

604
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: all on campus together. You know, I, look, I'm not

605
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: a I'm not a computer scientist. I don't know how

606
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: to code. I never would have had Mark's vision for

607
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: Facebook or you know, Cheryl's business acumen and leadership skills.

608
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: But I did walk away from that experience thinking that

609
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 1: so many of us are in positions where we have ideas,

610
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: you know, for things that could make the world around

611
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 1: us a little bit better. You know, anytime you get frustrated,

612
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: you know, in your job, or whether you know you're

613
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: volunteering in any part of your life, and say, you

614
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: know that that doesn't make sense or I wish this

615
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: was different, that's a moment to do something original. And

616
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: a lot of times we just don't bother because either

617
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: we're afraid or we just think it's futile and we

618
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: don't see the potential in our ideas that we should.

619
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: So that, to me was the reason why we all

620
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: need to pursue our ideas with a little bit more

621
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: enthusiasm than we do, but do not conformist rule the day.

622
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: Basically is that the thesis of your book Originals. Yeah,

623
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: so you know, I I kind of looked up to

624
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: the people who I thought of as the nonconformists, you know,

625
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: the original thinkers who were willing to to go against

626
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: the grain and challenge the status quo and you know,

627
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: take big risks, and they are the people who drive

628
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 1: a lot of the creativity and change in the world.

629
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: You know, if if you think about whether it's you know,

630
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: tech entrepreneurs, you know a lot of people will say

631
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk or you know, I

632
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: think social change too. If you think about Gandhi or

633
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: Rosa Parks or Martin Luther King Jr. Or Abraham Lincoln. Right,

634
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: these were all people who are willing to stand up

635
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: for their ideas against a majority that that didn't really

636
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: see it. And I think that you know, they do

637
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: sort of run the world. But a lot of people

638
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: who operate this way get shot down because they don't

639
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: know how to champion their ideas effectively. And so, you know,

640
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: I guess I wrote Originals to say, look, we all

641
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: have creative ideas, creativity is not the problem for most

642
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: of us. Where we've struggle is what we do after

643
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: we have an idea. How do we know if it's

644
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: any good? How do we speak up so that other

645
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: people really hear us and take a seriously exactly exactly, So,

646
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: I really wanted to write the sequel to creativity. You know,

647
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: I'm a relatively new parent, and I know you have

648
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: three congratulations thanks, no doubt you're parenting at him in

649
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: a totally evidence based, you know, data driven, brilliant way.

650
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: But hold on a second. I do not want to

651
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: be one of those psychologists who screws up at kids.

652
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 1: I know a few of them actually, But anyway, what

653
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 1: what are some things I can do because obviously I'm

654
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: already screwing up my kid it's seventeen months old. To

655
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: encourage her to, you know, not just achieve great things,

656
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: but also to be a good and happy person. Well,

657
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: I think when it comes to building resilience and kids,

658
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 1: the first thing I would say is that I think

659
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 1: of of everything that that I've learned and that that

660
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: we read about and studied, the thing that kids often

661
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 1: need most is to feel that they matter and mattering.

662
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: Is this this idea that so bologists study, which says,

663
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:03,959
Speaker 1: you know, you feel that you matter when you know

664
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: that other people notice you, care about you, and rely

665
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: on you. And I think most parents are pretty good

666
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: at the first two right, paying attention to our kids

667
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: as long as we're not distracted by digital devices, check

668
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: you know, caring about our kids. We we go out

669
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: of our way to show our kids that we love

670
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: them and tell them regularly. Good on that front too.

671
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: But then to know that you matter, you also have

672
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 1: to feel that other people rely on you. And this

673
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 1: is where I think we screw up. We don't count

674
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: on our kids enough, and we put them in a

675
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: position where we solve problems for them, especially for helicopter parents.

676
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: And so you know, one of the ways that you

677
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: can show your kids that they matter and and help

678
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: to build their resilience is to ask them for advice.

679
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: I've actually found myself doing this with that with our

680
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: with our daughters. When I was preparing for a speech

681
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: two years ago, I was I was asked to give

682
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: a TED talk, and I was terrified. I had gotten

683
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: more and more comfortable doing public speaking, but this is

684
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: a whole different kind of stage, and I thought, this

685
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: is a This is a per fick moment to you know,

686
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: to show our kids that they matter. And so I

687
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: went to our oldest daughter and I said, you know,

688
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: I'm nervous about this speech. What advice would you give me?

689
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: And she gave me a few tips. She said, you

690
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: know you should you should practice it a bunch of times,

691
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, maybe you should. Also, you know,

692
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 1: you should think happy thoughts right before you give your talk.

693
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: So long story short, you know, a couple of weeks later,

694
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: she was in a school play and she was nervous,

695
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: and instead of telling her what to do, I got

696
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: to repeat her own advice back to her and say,

697
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: you know what, what advice did you give me? And

698
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 1: then she was able to tackle the problem on her own.

699
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 1: So that advice giving you know, sort of experience for her.

700
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: It's signaled to her a few things. One, I trust

701
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,439
Speaker 1: her to handle her her own problems. Two, she has,

702
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 1: you know, some of her own ideas instead of relying

703
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 1: on mine, and that's a source of strength. And three

704
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 1: I also get to hear her suggestions and maybe edit

705
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: them a little bit so that I can teach her

706
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 1: some good strategies. That's really good advice. I've read so

707
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 1: much parents advice and in my day, and I've never

708
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 1: read that or heard anybody talk about helping kids understand

709
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 1: that they matter. I've certainly read so many books and

710
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: articles about overparenting and helicopter parenting and raising sort of

711
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 1: these not only entitled Everybody Wins a Trophy Kids. But

712
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 1: I want to ask you about your podcast called work Life.

713
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,399
Speaker 1: First of all, are you enjoying it at him? Oh?

714
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: I'm having a blessed thank you for asking this? Is

715
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,280
Speaker 1: this is so much easier than writing well. It's also

716
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,800
Speaker 1: it's also fun just to talk to interesting people. I'm assuming,

717
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: and I know you're focusing on businesses that are highly

718
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:42,879
Speaker 1: functional but often unconventional. So I'm curious. Can you give

719
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: us a few examples of the businesses that you've explored

720
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 1: on your podcast. Yeah. So the idea for for work

721
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 1: Life was I would pick organizations that go to the

722
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 1: extreme on something that I wish everyone got a chance

723
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 1: to experience. So I wanted to do an episode on creativity,

724
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,280
Speaker 1: and I got to go into the Daily Show writer's

725
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: room and figure out how they they go from basically

726
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: a blank slate at nine am to you know, hilarious

727
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,240
Speaker 1: show by Evening, which was just one of the coolest

728
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: experiences I've ever had. I that I'm jealous me too.

729
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,479
Speaker 1: Actually I was half tempted to quit my job and

730
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: try to get one there, but they were not hiring

731
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 1: so and I don't think they would take me anyway.

732
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Dorothy, White Jewish guys are not who they

733
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: hire ever, So probably I was gonna ask you was

734
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: it very male dominated? Because I think comedy is sort

735
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 1: of one of those fields where women do not get

736
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: their just do in my personal opinion, what was it like?

737
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 1: There's what I expected, And they have done a phenomenal

738
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 1: job on diversity, so they have a really strong male

739
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 1: female balance. They also have many many racial minority groups covered,

740
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 1: as well as people from outside the US working as

741
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: writers and producers and on air talent. It's the most

742
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 1: diverse writer's room I've ever seen, which is a huge

743
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 1: priority for the show. It started in the John Stewart days.

744
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,359
Speaker 1: Trevor Noah has has continued it and expanded it and

745
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 1: you know, dating back to that two has an eight,

746
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: two hausand nine uh. They introduced a blind review system,

747
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,919
Speaker 1: kind of like the blind auditions that orchestras did, where

748
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: they had, you know, people play from behind a curtain

749
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:14,879
Speaker 1: so you couldn't see if it was a manner of women.

750
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: And all of a sudden, people realize, whoa women are

751
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: really good? We've been overlooking them right, and orc that

752
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 1: the We actually went to the Boston Symphony and recorded

753
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 1: a blind audition and it changed the It changed the

754
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 1: complement of male female orchestra members dramatically. I think they're

755
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 1: now of national symphonies or women. And I always said, well,

756
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 1: you have to wear sneakers because no one can hear

757
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: your high heels when you're walking across the stage, or

758
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,879
Speaker 1: you have to put a carpet on there. But um,

759
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:47,919
Speaker 1: you know that's what I'm talking about when it comes

760
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: to real policies that remove these biases. Yeah, I think

761
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: I think that's so critical, and you know they're they're

762
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: often wrinkles in doing that. So you know, you think, okay,

763
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: we we do the blind submission, that's going to fix

764
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 1: late night right rooms. But you you actually watched in

765
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: the past few years a bunch of other writer's rooms

766
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: follow the daily shows the lead they had blind submissions

767
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 1: and they still ended up with mostly white men. Because

768
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: you know that the people in the room were a

769
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: bunch of white men and that was their taste. And

770
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 1: so you know that you need to make sure that

771
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: your evaluators are as diverse as your applicants interest, which

772
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: I think is often a missing part of the process.

773
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 1: And that's I think part of where The Daily Show

774
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,760
Speaker 1: has nailed it. That's so interesting. I love that before

775
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,879
Speaker 1: we go there's some unconventional adam grant advice. So we're

776
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 1: going to do a quick lightning round and you could

777
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 1: explain what the heck you mean by some of these things,

778
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 1: because they're very counterintuitive, as they say. So one, don't

779
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:45,799
Speaker 1: be your authentic self, huh in one sentence or less.

780
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: I think that too many people use authenticity as an

781
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: excuse for saying things that are hurtful or inappropriate. And

782
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: instead of asking what's inside and how do I bring

783
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 1: that to the outside world, we should go outside in

784
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,800
Speaker 1: and be sincere and say who's the person I claim

785
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 1: to be? And then how do I make sure I

786
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: follow up and actually live that. By the way, the

787
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: most overused word in the English language right now, in

788
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 1: my opinion, is authentic. But you're saying that that's not

789
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,359
Speaker 1: necessarily a positive thing. Yeah, I think you know when

790
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 1: when you look at the if you look at authenticity

791
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 1: at work, the studies show that the more you value authenticity,

792
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 1: the lower your performance evaluations and the lower your likelihood

793
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: of getting promoted because you you end up sort of

794
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 1: not concerned enough about what other people think. And I'm

795
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 1: not saying anyone should be inauthentic. What I am saying

796
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 1: is you need to find a balance between what's authentic

797
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,240
Speaker 1: and what's effective. Okay, another piece of adom grant advice.

798
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: It's okay for kids to fight, by what you mean, argue,

799
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 1: not like beat each other up. Oh, I was so

800
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: fascinated by the data on this. If you study highly

801
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: creative adults, it turns out that they tend to be

802
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:55,280
Speaker 1: raised in families growing up where there were more arguments,

803
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: you know, not fist fights, but real heated debates. And

804
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: I think a reason for that is that it teaches

805
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 1: kids not to just listen to whatever one adult or

806
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: two adults says. Right If if as if his parents

807
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 1: you always present a united front, then kids just learn

808
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: to follow authority figures, whereas if you watch your parents argue,

809
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: you have to think for yourself. Now, a lot of

810
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: parents are afraid of arguing in front of their kids.

811
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: You don't want to, you know, terrify them that you're

812
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 1: you're going to get divorced or anything. But what you

813
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,240
Speaker 1: want to do is you want to model a healthy

814
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 1: disagreement because that teaches them how to do that themselves.

815
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: And the data show that if you look at how

816
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: well adjusted kids are, it has nothing to do with

817
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: how often their parents argue. It's about how respectfully their

818
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 1: parents arguing. And it's really also debate right to have

819
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 1: a difference of opinion I s spet. I think that's

820
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 1: especially relevant in this day and age where people are

821
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,319
Speaker 1: getting information that affirms their point of view rather than

822
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 1: learning how to be critical thinkers and express how they

823
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: feel in conflict with a with an opposing point of view.

824
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: It's a huge corporate culture is more important to your

825
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:07,479
Speaker 1: happiness than salary, title or position. I would agree with that. Yeah,

826
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,800
Speaker 1: above obviously, you you need enough of a salary to

827
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: to make ends meet, and you know, to to be

828
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,479
Speaker 1: able to support your family or your lifestyle outside work.

829
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 1: But once once you clear that bar I think a

830
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 1: lot of people underestimate how much culture matters. If you

831
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: look at the evidence on this one thing, you can

832
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 1: do is you can say, look, you're trying to diagnose

833
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 1: the culture of an organization, and the easiest question to

834
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 1: ask people is not what's your culture like or what

835
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,240
Speaker 1: are your values, because you get a bunch of platitudes. Instead,

836
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: what you want to do is you want to ask

837
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: a passover question, which is, can you tell me the

838
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 1: story of something that happened in your organization that would

839
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 1: not happen elsewhere? And then you ask a bunch of

840
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 1: people that question and you start to hear the really

841
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,760
Speaker 1: core values of the culture come out in the stories.

842
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 1: Brainstorming meetings are a waste of time, always not always

843
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 1: been on an average, if you're going to bring eight

844
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,399
Speaker 1: people together in a room to rainstorm together, you would

845
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 1: get more ideas and better ideas if you put them

846
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: in separate rooms to brainstorm alone, interesting and just to

847
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: write down their ideas then get together and compare notes. Yeah,

848
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 1: because when when you let people think independently, you get

849
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: less group think. You don't have people censoring themselves, you

850
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,439
Speaker 1: know who are afraid of looking stupid, and you don't

851
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 1: have people talking over each other, so you get more

852
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 1: ideas and people are more likely to share their boldest

853
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 1: ideas And finally one that really made me happy. Procrastination

854
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:34,439
Speaker 1: can be good because I am a master procrastinator. Oh well,

855
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: I guess I'll tell you about that one later. I've

856
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 1: been I've been waiting for an opportunity. No, I you know,

857
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 1: I was very pleasantly surprised to discover that, you know,

858
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 1: procrastinations a spectrum. There are people who do it chronically,

859
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 1: but they're also people like me who are procrastinators where

860
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: you know, I'm constantly finishing things early. And there's a

861
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: sweet spot where people who procrastinate sometimes seem to be

862
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 1: more creative because they incubate more and they don't run

863
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 1: ahead with their their first idea. They actually have time

864
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: to develop their best idea. Excellent. Well, that was a

865
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:17,320
Speaker 1: great lightning round. And for our final question, Brian Goldsmith, Well,

866
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 1: I couldn't do a podcast and not talk about Donald Trump.

867
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 1: So before we wrap, what have you learned about the organizational,

868
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 1: psychology and culture of the Trump White House? Oh? Wow? Well, look,

869
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,800
Speaker 1: to me, the single biggest problem in in the White

870
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: House right now. Uh, you know, and I think there's

871
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 1: no shortage of officies that are getting lots of attention,

872
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 1: but I think the single biggest problem is that the

873
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: Trump administration is repeating the mistakes in many past presents,

874
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: which is if you look at the one of the

875
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,720
Speaker 1: big differences between presidents who made decisions that are regarded

876
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 1: by historians and political scientists is great versus those who

877
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 1: had more stumbles. One of the biggest factors that distinguishes

878
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 1: them is having an honest broker, someone in the White

879
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 1: House who sits above all the heads of the different

880
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 1: agencies and gives, you know, really candid feedback to the president,

881
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,280
Speaker 1: and the president listens to that. You know, that doesn't

882
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: That's not the only structure, of course, but I think

883
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: it illustrates that, you know, we we have a pretty

884
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: clear situation of of yes men, where we have you know,

885
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 1: we have a president who, like many powerful people, is

886
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: listening to the people who agree with him and dismissing

887
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 1: his critics. Uh. And we know that's that's horrendous for

888
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,879
Speaker 1: decision processes. And so I would love to say that,

889
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 1: you know, if I could do one thing differently in

890
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 1: the White House is that currently runs. I would say

891
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: that we're going to find a bunch of people who

892
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: genuinely hold different opinions, and we're gonna We're gonna listen

893
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: to their challenges as opposed to dismissing them, shutting them down,

894
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: or firing them. Excellent. Al right, well that's good advice.

895
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 1: I'm sure it won will not be heated. But it's

896
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 1: interesting to hear your perspective, Adam Grant, Adam so great

897
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 1: to talk do you. We want to mention again your

898
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: new podcast is called work Life. Everyone should give it

899
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: a listen because Adam at thirty six is wise beyond

900
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 1: his years. Annoyingly so, I must say it's certain points,

901
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 1: but um, love talking to you, Adam. Thank you so

902
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 1: much that no, no, no, I'm teasing. This is a

903
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 1: treat as always. Thank you so much for having me.

904
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 1: Well that's the end of our show, Brian. I always

905
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 1: feels so much smarter and calmer after talking to Adam Grant,

906
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,839
Speaker 1: even though he makes me feel like I just do

907
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,320
Speaker 1: nothing every day. Yeah, it's a great combination of feeling

908
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 1: like a terrible person but also like maybe my life's

909
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 1: gonna go a little better thanks to our pot squad

910
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: behind the scenes. That's our producer Gianna Palmer, our audio

911
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 1: engineer Jared O'Connell, and our assistant producer Nora Richie. Also

912
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 1: a big thank you to my assistant Beth Demas for

913
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 1: keeping my life in order. Poor Beth, thank you, And

914
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:58,839
Speaker 1: of course thanks to Emily Bean at Katie Kirk Media

915
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,919
Speaker 1: Alison Bresnik, who does such a great job on our

916
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 1: social media front. Mark Phillips wrote our theme music. You

917
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 1: can find Katie all over the social media's under actual

918
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 1: media is the plural right, yes, under Katie Kirk. Meanwhile,

919
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: I send a lot of stuff out into the void

920
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 1: on Twitter, which my mother reads at. I read it

921
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 1: to Brian and I are the show's executive producers. Don't

922
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 1: forget to leave us a message with your thoughts and

923
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 1: feedback on the podcast. Honestly, we we can take constructive

924
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: criticism as long as it's constructive people, that's right. I'm

925
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:38,720
Speaker 1: standing by seven at two to four four six three seven.

926
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 1: You can also email us at comments at currect podcast

927
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: dot com, or leave the show or view on Apple podcasts.

928
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 1: We love hearing from you, and the Apple stuff, by

929
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 1: the way, is how more people hear about the show,

930
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 1: so that's really important and we would appreciate it. Lately

931
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:55,840
Speaker 1: a lot of people have been telling me that they

932
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 1: fall asleep listening to my podcast. I don't know whether

933
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:02,320
Speaker 1: to be flattered or insulted, but they said my voice

934
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 1: is soothing, so it makes me think I should maybe

935
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 1: release an album of lullabies I don't know, or poetry.

936
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:10,959
Speaker 1: And we know how much you love to sing, and actually,

937
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 1: can you give us a few notes? I didn't sing

938
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 1: anything in this episode. Twinkle twinkle maybe no, No, I'm

939
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 1: kind of embarrassed Pharma's anxiety right now, Brian has to

940
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 1: be kind of more spontaneous. Whatever, whatever floats your boat.

941
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 1: All right, we'll do a private record session or later.

942
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 1: How about nine bottles of beer on the wall, that

943
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,839
Speaker 1: perfect one perfect anyway, As always, thank you so much

944
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 1: for listening, and we'll talk to you soon