WEBVTT - Why You Should Know About Solarpunk 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:11.239 Garrison. Is that good? Isn't the show? No? Let's keep 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:14.240 going though, Okay, well it could happen. Here is the 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:19.000 show that A tonal noise is my introduction this week 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:22.560 because I'm a hack in a fraud. Who isn't a 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:25.560 hack in a fraud? Is is our guest this week? 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:30.600 St Andrew. St Andrew, you are a solar punk anarchist 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:35.520 from Trinidad. Um. You have a YouTube channel, UM where 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:38.920 you talk about solar punk. Um, you talk about stuff 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:41.960 like seed bombing. Yeah. I'm just very excited to have 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:43.239 you on the show because I'm a big fan of 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:46.400 your YouTube channel. Thank you, glad to be here, big 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:48.559 fan of your work as well. Andrew, I kind of 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:55.000 wanted to start with why this white solar punk is important, because, UM, 0:00:55.000 --> 0:00:56.840 I think it's easy for folks who just kind of 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:58.120 skim it to see it. It's just like, oh, it's 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:02.200 an aesthetic. It's maybe an art style or a fiction style. UM. 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:04.880 Maybe something that's neat, but not something that has like 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:07.920 a lot of inherent value to people trying to change 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:11.000 the world. And obviously you disagree with that. I disagree 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:13.480 with it to um A quote I keep coming back 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:16.240 to again and again is one from Werner Herzog in 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:18.880 the nineteen seventies and it was something along the lines 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:21.280 of I think that without better myths, were destined to 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:27.399 go the way of the dinosaurs. Um. Actually of I 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:30.560 forget his name right now, But there's this excellent, excellent 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:34.920 book called The Truth About Stories, and I think what 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:38.240 it really emphasizes throughout the book is the importance of 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:41.520 stories on how stories impact how we navigate the woot, 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:44.480 which is why I sort of embraced Sula punk, you know, 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:49.840 as a story that we can work with going forward. Yeah, 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:53.240 I think, Um, I think it's incredibly important to have 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:58.000 better stories, better myths because for one thing, I think 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:01.240 where the Left falls down a lot is not having 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:07.480 is accurately diagnosing the problems without providing a better look 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:10.960 at at this at the future, you know, um. And 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:13.520 when the problems are when the people who do kind 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:16.799 of propose solutions, it's often um not in a way 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:19.880 people can feel. One of the benefits that that that 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:24.040 the right has, that fascism has, is that they they're 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:27.760 very good at providing people with myths and providing people 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:32.240 with kind of a fictional look at at their idealized world. 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:34.520 That draws people in. You know, you can laugh at 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:37.640 the right you know, the people that work on like 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:43.720 meta narratives, and that's very, very core to their ideology. Um, So, 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:46.680 I guess where I'd like to start with you, Andrew, 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:48.680 because this is kind of the first time I think 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:52.400 we've really talked about solar punk on on this show, 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:55.440 even though from the beginning before any of these episodes dropped, 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:57.840 this was always a central part of our discussion about 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:00.720 what the show was was going to be. Um, would 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:03.920 you kind of provide an introduction to to what solar 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:09.200 punk is for our listeners? Sure? Sure, So I would 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:12.520 say that solar punk is the vision of the future 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:16.839 that place this emphasis on the existing world and how 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:19.840 we get to that future from where we are now. 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:24.600 So it emphasizes the need for environmental sustainability, for self governance, 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:29.120 and for autonomy and social justice. It emphasizes the need 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:34.519 for you know, human and ecocentric ends to really be 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:39.480 in sync, and it aims to really heal the current 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:44.440 rift between humanity and nature. It also recognizes, of course, 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:49.600 that there isn't this binary between climate change happens and 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:54.080 climate change doesn't happen. Rather, it understands that how we 0:03:54.200 --> 0:04:00.880 navigate it will have a variety of consequences and some 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:03.000 of the positive, some of the negative, but it's up 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:07.640 to us to really shape that. Yeah, and it's um. 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:10.040 I want to drill into a couple of facets of that. 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:12.440 But I want to quickly plug one of your YouTube 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:15.080 videos for folks who kind of want a more involved 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:19.039 um explanation and background. You have a video called what 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:22.479 is solar Punk on your channel st Andrewism like Andrew 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:25.320 I s m um that I think is a fantastic 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:28.720 introduction not just to like the aesthetics of solar punk, 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:31.800 but some of the practical some of the practical kind 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:33.920 of expressions of it. And and two of the ones 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:36.560 you list is like examples of here's here's what this 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:38.840 is is like actual practis you know, and not just 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:42.800 an aesthetic is seed bombing um. And then you talk 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:46.000 about this this very interesting kind of like terra Cotta 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:49.160 air conditioning, which I think is I think it's neat 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:51.839 because it's it's one of the problems that I think 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:56.919 with kind of some versions of of particularly kind of 0:04:56.920 --> 0:04:59.680 on the more liberal end of of of solar punk 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:03.400 imag engining is just sort of like ways of replacing um, 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:06.880 ways of gaining the same kind of consumptive benefits that exist. 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:11.360 I guess not even not even like greenwashing, right washing, greenwashing, 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:18.400 Like here, let's get the same consumptive benefits we get scrapers, yes, skyscrapers, 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:21.760 the same level of consumerism, same level of you know, 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:26.279 destructive extractive practices. But we have some flowers and some trees. 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:29.640 So yeah, and that's not enough. But at the same time, 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:33.040 there are things that aren't. Like air conditioning is contributes 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:35.960 massively to climate change. It's also not a luxury. Like 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:37.640 if you live in a place where it's a hundred 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:39.240 and twenty degrees a lot of the summer, that's not 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:42.320 a luxury. Yeah, this is going from someone in a 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:48.400 tropical country. Yeah, um, definitely a necessity. Yeah, So I 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:51.279 wonder if you could talk about kind of those two 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:53.960 I mean, or if you have different ones you'd like 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:55.480 to pick, but just kind of what you see is 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:58.279 sort of the practice expressions of solar punk, sort of 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:00.240 beyond the aesthetic, although we're going to drill nder the 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:03.440 esthetics some too, because I also think that's important. Right, So, 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:07.400 I think some of my favorite manifestations of suli punk. 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:12.400 In a practical context, things like um gorilla gardening. Grilla 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:15.039 gardening is probably the biggest one because it's one that 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:19.039 someone could literally pick up and do today or tomorrow, 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:20.600 you know, as soon as they hear about it, doing 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:24.039 about it. Just get some clay, get some seeds, you know, 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:27.280 and put those things together, and as you're walking home 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:30.360 or walking to the store, just toss them wherever there's 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:35.000 some free dud UM. So that's a fun one. There's also, 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:39.080 of course, things like a little bit one involved, like 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:44.000 community gardening and particularly forest gardening, because that will provide 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:49.479 a level of food autonomy and agency for people who 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:52.240 have been eling it for a long time from the 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:58.039 process of food production. UM. They're also practices like compassing 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:02.839 or corpaching, and it's like a way to produce lumber 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:07.159 without chopping down a whole side of trees, so you 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:10.720 are able to get the wood from the trees, but 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:17.720 the tree remains alive. UM. There's also things like, of 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:24.400 course solar powered technology, whether it be algae based UM 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:29.440 windows that you know, extract energy from the sun, or 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:35.600 solar sales or solar ovens uh or like the terra cotta, 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:40.040 the air conditioning, which, by the way I learned recently 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:45.000 can't really work in a human environment. But yeah, there 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:48.040 are a lot of different opportunities. They also there are 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:51.440 things like you know, tool shares and maker spaces and 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:55.040 seed libraries, all different ways to sort of bring it 0:07:55.080 --> 0:08:01.400 into fruition. So that is yeah, and I uh, I 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:06.920 think a lot of that's really valuable. UM. I'm interested 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:14.200 in in parts sort of your your attitude on UM 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:21.920 what uh let me think about how to phrase this, UM, 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:23.920 what do you think are kind of the things as 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:25.600 we talk about sort of the things that can be 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:29.520 at least potentially replaced UM with with less extract of 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:33.120 less consumptive methods. Is sort of an example of solar 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:36.280 punk practice is replacing those things. There's also things that 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:38.680 we're not going to be able to have if we 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:42.840 actually want to live in a more sustainable UM future 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:45.760 that that doesn't contribute to some of the nightmares that 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:50.000 we're all going to be increasingly facing. UM. You're you know, 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:52.840 and again I think it's it's telling that so much 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:57.120 of kind of the future fantasies of that are written 0:08:57.120 --> 0:08:59.160 by people who come from you know, my part of 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:02.480 the world. United States focus on like kind of post 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:07.640 scarcity methods of of guaranteeing the continuation of consumption just 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:11.200 through in some cases like fantastic methods um, you know, 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:14.880 magical three D printers and the like. Um. You come 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:17.200 from a very different part of the world, very different perspective. 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:19.360 What do you see is the things that like we're 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:23.640 going to have to give up. Coming from a country 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:27.720 that is actually reliant on oil and natural gas production, 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:31.920 we have to get rid of cause We definitely absolutely 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:35.120 have to get rid of cause um free to ships 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:40.760 as well, and really the whole way that you know, 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:44.280 global supply chains are structured right now, not to say 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:48.240 that they won't be any sort of global um sharing 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:51.480 of resources in the future, but the way that it's 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:54.680 happening right now, it can't continue to go on. We 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:59.440 can't continue to structure cities in our lives around cause 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:07.040 and other methods of gascars in transportation because we're literally 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:08.680 going to run out. And we've known this for a 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:12.920 long time, but it's nearing that the day is nearing 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:17.079 CLUISA and CLUISO and yeah, we have to find a 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:20.880 way to do without it. Yeah, and it's it's I 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:24.000 think tell like there's a couple of things that are important. 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:26.640 One of them is you can't just say we have 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:31.240 to stop global trade because in global travel, because the 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:35.360 people have have sought and done that for as long 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:37.400 as there have been people in one form or another. 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:40.760 It's it's a fundamentally human thing. But there are aspects 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:43.520 of it, like you know, expecting that every kind of 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:46.199 fruit and vegetable will be available year round, which is 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:49.679 certainly thing that we in the United States expect. Um. 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:53.480 That doesn't that that's not part of a realistic future. 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:55.439 Um And if it's part of the future, then it's 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:56.840 only going to be part of the future for an 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:59.480 ever shrinking chunk of of the country. And you can 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:02.240 see that and sort of um or of the of 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:04.280 the West, and you can see that in kind of 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:07.400 um the like what we're dealing with right now with 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.760 like the supply line shortages and failures, and like one 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:12.760 of the I think the symbols of how far we 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:15.480 have to go in my country is the degree to 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:17.480 which people are freaking out by the fact that Christmas 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.800 presents might be late. Um. Let alone being like yeah, 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:24.960 you might not be able to buy coffee, um um ever, 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:26.800 or all the time, you know, you might not be 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:31.880 able to get tomatoes in December, which reminds me UM. 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:35.560 I think one benefits to gorilla gardening, and that's what 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:39.560 sort of mindset is. As you learn to so you 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:42.440 also learn to reap. Right, So a lot of people 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:44.840 who get into grilla gardening altos end up getting into foraging, 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:47.400 and they are absent stuff you could download that allow 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:50.480 you to, you know, learn how to identify plants in 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:53.320 your area, and we surprise a number of plants in 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:57.000 your area that are you know, useful for tease or 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:01.360 for salads or for whatever poop is is that can 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:06.440 be used as replacements. I'm not sure they could replace coffee, 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:12.040 but they could be beneficial. UM in recognizing how we 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:19.320 have to live with our local ecosystems. Basically, yeah, and 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:21.520 a big you know, when you talk about living learning 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:24.600 how to live with our ecosystem stuff like planting um 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.800 forest gardens and the like um or food forests, I 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.680 think is the term UM. I think something that has 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:34.720 to be discussed is the matter of indigenous sovereignty, especially 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:38.240 when we're talking about you know, it's not just you know, 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:41.240 North America. A lot of chunks of the globe. Indigenous 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:45.000 people had spent you know, in some cases thousands of 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:53.319 generations setting forests up in order to sustainably produce food. Um. 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:57.320 And when when colonialism arrived, that was often just seen 0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:59.240 as like, oh, this is this is these are wild 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:02.040 places for us too, for us to extract or tear 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:06.160 down and replace with mono cultures, you know, single crops. Um. 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:11.079 And so a big part of actually building back that capacity, 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:13.400 the capacity of us to to survive off of the 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:18.439 food that can sustainably grow where we live is looking 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:21.840 back to those indigenous methods and and also um, you know, 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:26.680 giving back land in a lot of cases um And yeah, 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:29.120 that's something you talk about in your videos that I 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.680 think is really important to um to to to to 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:36.480 explain to people. Yeah, I mean there's there's really is 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:42.040 no way to separate the violence and oppressive institution of 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:47.880 clunealism with the equosido Nietzsche of modern steeds. You know, 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:52.800 those two are deeply intertwined, deeply married together. And so 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:58.200 you can't fight climate change without addressing the issue of sverenity, 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:04.600 of indigenous serenity on land back. Yeah, it's m it's 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:06.920 really interesting. I've been I've been up hunting on Mountain 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:09.760 Hood with a friend who is who went to school 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:13.000 for like forestry management, and as we were driving, we 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:15.200 had to drive through a chunk of the reservation in 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:18.240 order to get to the blm land where we're able 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:20.840 to hunt, and he pointed it out, and once he did, 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:24.880 it was immediately obvious just how different the land under 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:28.520 indigenous control looked from the land, you know, just feed 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.640 away that was being managed by the federal government in 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:34.160 terms of like how much better the forest management was, 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:37.080 how much how much smarter it was it was managed 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:39.920 in order to um reduce the chances of like a 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:42.800 ladder fire that that actually kills you know, the trees 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:45.640 and whatnot. There's this whole thing blowing up on Twitter 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:49.040 right now where you've got a chunk of Marxists who 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:54.000 are are trying to frame land back as uh just 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:57.440 like shifting ownership of resources, which I think is really missing. 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:02.960 The point I find interesting about Twitter is the exact 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:06.760 same discourses are repeated over and over and over again. 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:10.760 So I remember this exact conversation happening around this time 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:15.040 last year, around April last year, um earlier this year 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:18.040 as well. It's just the same discourses get recycled over 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:20.240 and over again, and it's reached a point for me, 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:24.360 who I realized that these people don't want to learn 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:27.480 about land back what it really means, because they are 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:32.360 invested in the structure as it exists and they don't 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:37.680 want to have to interrogate that. So, Yeah, that's fellow 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:42.840 to be an interesting thing, I've note. Yeah, and it's um, 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:46.760 it's it's it's frustrating. UM. I guess that that acts 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:51.760 as like a general uh description of Twitter discourse, but 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:56.880 certainly doesn't. Yeah, I think it's I think it's telling 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:00.000 the degree to which people, even on the left tree 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:04.200 eat it as a fantasy as opposed to dogged lye 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:10.440 pragmatic um and and proven so like proven by like 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:13.120 like you know, like you can read you in reports 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:15.520 that will that will essentially say land back in the 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:18.200 space of a five page, you know, study on how 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:22.520 indigenous land management functions a great deal better than UM 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:24.600 than a lot of the stuff that's like centralized by 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:26.920 the federal government, where we're like, our federal government is 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:30.560 terrible at land management. UM, And it's part of the 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:33.040 it's part of the problem. I think one of the 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:35.880 things that that excites me about solar punk as an 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:38.800 aesthetic and idea is getting back to this relationship with 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:41.520 the land as opposed to talking about just preserving it 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:46.440 um as talking about managing it. Because because none of 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:49.200 our none of the land that people live on is 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:52.640 like wild in the sense they mean it as it's 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:57.240 been cultivated. That's the thing, right. The whole philosophy of 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:02.880 you know, um land preservation as was taken up by 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:06.840 the US government with the whole um you know, you 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:09.320 can stop forest fires kind of thing, ended up leading 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:13.439 to more forest fires online because they we have a 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:16.320 rule in the ecosystem, not just they had to stand 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:18.800 back from a file to subserve it. So we doin't 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:22.439 do our part to manage the underbrush and whatnots and 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:26.520 clear to we and exercise you know, controlled fires, but 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:28.879 we end up in the situation we're in today. You know, 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:36.120 cultivation not just sterile preservation. Now one of the things 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:38.600 that you talk about well because because one of the 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:41.199 more frustrating discourses this is not just a Twitter thing, 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:43.800 this has been going on for years, is the discourse 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:47.439 around GMO crops. And usually I would say like the 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:51.360 two most commonly heard sides, are GMOs are bad because 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:55.440 you know mon santo cancer whatever, or GMOs are good 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:59.439 um in in thought, um, And the thing that you 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:03.200 point out, which is I think the accurate take is GMOs. 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:07.000 The preponderance of evidence says that, like, there's nothing inherently 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:10.720 dangerous about genetically modified crops, but the way in which 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:13.960 they're often used in order to create these massive mono 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:17.040 cultures is really toxic. So there's a lot of promise 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:21.080 um for GMOs in terms of keeping our our existence 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:24.320 on this planet sustainable. But what's not sustainable is the 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:28.320 kind of industrialized agriculture where you have ten thousand acres 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:32.680 of one thing which just doesn't happen in nature exactly exactly. 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:36.320 And if you look at how genetic modification took place 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:42.119 prior to you know, all advanced funds in genetic modification technology. UM, 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:45.400 I'm not how many people are familiar with the dozens 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:48.159 of one dozens, if not hundreds of varieties of just 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:52.240 corn they were present in the Americas prior to Coltonization. 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:55.320 A lot of those varieties were wiped out or was 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:59.880 suppressed in fear of these monocultures. But if we able 0:18:59.920 --> 0:19:03.000 to culture to divusity of these crops and really bring 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:06.720 some of them back through Jessic modification. That would really 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:09.959 help us with you know, food resilience in a world 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:15.520 with an increasingly unpredictable climate. Yeah, yeah, I think that. 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:27.560 I mean, I think you said it perfectly. I want 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:30.439 to move back to kind of what I introduced the 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:33.760 episode with, which is talking about the value of of 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:38.040 fiction and myth making in a in a very pragmatic sense. 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:39.920 I guess I'll start by saying, I think one of 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:42.639 the clearest signs of the danger that we're in and 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:46.440 how toxic our society has gotten. Um And I am 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:49.879 speaking from a primarily US centric standpoint here, but I 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:52.240 don't think it's unique to the United States. Is the 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:56.280 extent to which trust me um as as the saying goes, 0:19:56.440 --> 0:20:01.400 when the U s sneel. So anytime there's some phenomenon 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:06.520 happened in the US, there are the coffee cuts. And 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:08.679 I do think this is pretty global. I mean, you 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:12.480 see it in like South Korean films and and know 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:16.479 what you're gonna say, Yeah, the obsession with apocalypse and 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:18.679 when we when we go to the future, it's always 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:21.879 a dystopia. Um, there's a degree to which we've almost 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:26.920 forgotten how to imagine utopia or even not just utopia, 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:29.399 just a way of living that is an improvement in 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:31.880 a lot of ways of future that's better. We've forgotten 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:34.199 to do both utopian fiction and any just kind of 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:38.720 like positive fiction in a lot of ways. Because, yeah, 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:41.239 it's understandable because the world is kind of terrible right 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:42.920 now in a lot of in a lot of ways. 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:46.480 But there's also there's been utopian fiction inside other terrible 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:50.919 worlds as well. I think just the modern interconnected media 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:54.679 sphere has really rewarded this type of like dystopian and 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:58.040 collapse based apocalypse fiction. Yeah, and I'm sure that's that's 0:20:58.040 --> 0:21:00.880 worth interrogating. Why. But it is a problem that needs 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:03.440 to be solved. Yeah, and it is, And and you're 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:05.840 I think it's important. It's not entirely based in how 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:07.760 fucked up things are, because like when the first Star 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:10.239 Trek came out, we were at like the height of 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:13.399 the Cold War. Things were terrible. There was a lot 0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:17.120 of utopian fiction during World War Two. During World War two, UM, 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:19.760 I will always be impressed by the fact that Gene 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:24.520 Roddenberry saw it as incredibly important both to be like, Okay, well, 0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:26.600 in the future, like in the middle of the Civil 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:30.560 rights movement, in the future, we will have overcome like racism, 0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:32.520 but not just that, but like I'm gonna I'm gonna 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:35.360 stick a Russian on the bridge too, because nations are 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:37.680 going to end as a concept and like this stuff 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:44.080 won't matter. Um, and that just that kind of utopian fiction, 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:47.679 at least at this at the scale of popularity that 0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:50.960 you know, Star Trek wasn't its time just isn't present anymore. 0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:54.520 And I that's tremendously worrying to me. And I see 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:59.119 a lot of hope in in Solar Punk for that. Um, 0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:01.120 I guess for star As I'm interested in in your 0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:04.080 thoughts on this, and you're interested in Andrew, what you 0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:08.600 think is like the pragmatic value of of of positive 0:22:09.520 --> 0:22:14.960 a fiction that that that imagines a better world. Yes, 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:21.800 so I've done probably I think I've done like two 0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:25.600 videos on Sola Punk so far. M two major videos 0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:27.639 on Soil the Punk, as well as a smaller video 0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:32.119 two other smaller videos. Um. And what I've seen in 0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:35.200 the comments and in the general social media reaction again 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:39.119 and again is sol the Punk saved my life, you know, 0:22:39.240 --> 0:22:41.919 sola punk has given me hoop. You know, I was 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:46.000 slipping into the spair, but this video really gave me 0:22:46.400 --> 0:22:49.320 a jump start to try something new and to start 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:53.639 to fresh and to pursue action as opposed to suggest 0:22:54.560 --> 0:23:00.920 laying down and taking whatever comes next and that that 0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:04.440 is it for me. You know, I think the fact 0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:10.080 that sulla punk offers like an energizing vision. It's not 0:23:10.200 --> 0:23:14.440 just a vision, it's an energizing vision because in every 0:23:14.440 --> 0:23:17.960 step with the way it shows what you can do. 0:23:18.359 --> 0:23:20.160 You know, when you show when you look at sula 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:24.439 punk art or um, you look at the small but 0:23:24.600 --> 0:23:29.679 growing genre of sula punk literary media, or you know, 0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:33.120 you look at but there's don't have many slipunk video 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:36.240 games right now, but hopefully there will be in the future. 0:23:36.960 --> 0:23:38.920 When you look at the various forms of sila punk 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:44.280 media that are coming out and people's responses to them, 0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:47.520 you see that it's not like as all mentioning like 0:23:47.560 --> 0:23:52.359 star Trek, where it's all this far out technology that 0:23:52.480 --> 0:23:55.119 we can only aspire to for now. You know, suli 0:23:55.160 --> 0:23:57.960 punk is something that you can literally put in your 0:23:57.960 --> 0:24:02.880 backyard or your bad canny, or your home, or your 0:24:02.920 --> 0:24:05.360 school or your community. You know, you could put these 0:24:05.359 --> 0:24:07.560 things in place like from now, you know, and you 0:24:07.560 --> 0:24:11.120 can incorporate it into your politics as you know, as 0:24:11.160 --> 0:24:13.120 they are, and they could also help to push your 0:24:13.160 --> 0:24:16.520 politics forward, you know, because through solo punk, we could 0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:20.840 open up discussions about, Okay, so how do we ensure 0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:26.119 that people live comfortably within the parameters of you know, 0:24:26.800 --> 0:24:30.000 the Earth's carrying capacity? You know, you open up a 0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:36.840 discussions about indigenous soevereignty, you discussions about, um, the relationship 0:24:36.960 --> 0:24:40.960 between the Google North and the global South, and responsibility 0:24:41.359 --> 0:24:45.399