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Speaker 1: Psychology Podcast, where we give you insights into the mind, brain, behavior,
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Speaker 2: Today.
Speaker 1: It's a real honor to have Carol Dweck on the podcast.
Speaker 1: Doctor Dwek is a leading researcher in the field of
Speaker 1: motivation and is the Lewis and Virginia Eden Professor of
Speaker 1: Psychology at Stanford. Her research examines the role of mindsets
Speaker 1: and personal achievement and organizational effectiveness. Doctor Dewek has also
Speaker 1: held professorships at Columbia and Harvard Universities. Has lectured to education,
Speaker 1: business and sports groups around the world, has addressed the
Speaker 1: United Nations has been elected to the American Academy of
Speaker 1: Arts and Sciences and the National Academy of Sciences, and
Speaker 1: has won twelve Lifetime Achievement Awards for her research. Her
Speaker 1: best selling book, Mindset, has been widely influential and has
Speaker 1: been translated into over twenty five languages. Doctor Dewek, so
Speaker 1: great to chat with you today, Scott.
Speaker 3: It's great to chat with you.
Speaker 2: Oh boy, there's so much to talk about.
Speaker 1: I was thinking about starting with your earliest sort of
Speaker 1: dissertation research because I remember two thousand and three. I
Speaker 1: remember I was studying intelligence. I was reading a book
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed reading of yours. It was one of these.
Speaker 1: It was an academic book. It was short, it was short,
Speaker 1: and it went through It didn't use the language mindsets.
Speaker 1: This is like back in the day, it was incremental
Speaker 1: versus entity, right.
Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit about this earliest research.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I'd love to tell you about it. When
Speaker 3: I was in graduate school, I was kind of gripped
Speaker 3: by a question, why did some kids shy away from
Speaker 3: challenges and crumble at the first sign of failure while
Speaker 3: other kids no smarter or more able at the task.
Speaker 3: Seemed to relish, taking on challenges, and thrive in the
Speaker 3: face of obstacles. And pretty soon I found the question
Speaker 3: was a little bit wrong. It wasn't just that some
Speaker 3: kids thrived, want to challenge or coped with obstacles. I
Speaker 3: found out that some of the kids loved setbacks. They
Speaker 3: said things like, I love a challenge. I was hoping
Speaker 3: this would be informative, and I thought, I'm giving them
Speaker 3: failure problems, and they're thinking this makes it worth their while.
Speaker 3: I couldn't relate to them at all. I thought they
Speaker 3: were from another planet. But I thought, I'm going to
Speaker 3: figure out their secret. I'm going to bottle it and
Speaker 3: I'm going to take a few healthy swigs of it
Speaker 3: myself because I thought I have a lot to learn
Speaker 3: from these ten year old kids. That's how I got
Speaker 3: started on this research.
Speaker 1: Wow, so it sounds like the original observation was more
Speaker 1: a behavioral finding than a cognitive mindset finding. The way
Speaker 1: you described it, that's so interesting.
Speaker 3: I wanted to figure out the cognitive underpinnings of it,
Speaker 3: and my reason was it was personally relevant my sixth
Speaker 3: grade teacher. I kind of figured this out later that
Speaker 3: it was me as we say, research, not just research.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, that's what we all do, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3: And I recommend it because you never get enough of it.
Speaker 3: My sixth grade teacher had seated us around the room
Speaker 3: in IQ order. We were already the top IQ class
Speaker 3: in the sixth grade of five classes, and yet she
Speaker 3: thought every IQ point was monumentally important in not only
Speaker 3: telling you how smart you were, but whether you had
Speaker 3: good character, could be trusted, and essentially what you were
Speaker 3: worth in her eyes. Spending a whole year in that classroom,
Speaker 3: I was really influenced. Now you might oh, I felt
Speaker 3: downtrodden and unappreciated. No, I was in the first row,
Speaker 3: first seat. You would think, oh, I won that IQ prize.
Speaker 3: But as I looked back, I realized I never wanted
Speaker 3: challenges again, and I arranged my life to be purely successful,
Speaker 3: not to topple from my height. So I wanted to
Speaker 3: figure out what goes on in people's minds that can
Speaker 3: allow them to risk taking on challenges, and that can
Speaker 3: give them the fortitude to keep going when things seemed rough.
Speaker 1: It's such a great question. An important question was the
Speaker 1: opposite I was. I was in special education as a kid.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I ever told you that for
Speaker 1: an auditory an auditory processing disability. So people thought I
Speaker 1: was really slow, slow earner because I was having trouble
Speaker 1: hearing things in real time and sort of the impact
Speaker 1: of expectations can certainly have an effect on mindsets, I'm sure,
Speaker 1: and the way we think about things. I'm wondering when
Speaker 1: did the shift from entity and incremental become fixed versus growth?
Speaker 3: That was when I wrote the book Mindset. I realized
Speaker 3: nobody can remember entity and incremental.
Speaker 2: I always had to rearing that myself, which is.
Speaker 3: That if they couldn't remember entity and they couldn't remember
Speaker 3: an incremental. So when I came to write the book Mindset,
Speaker 3: I said, well, I have to find some more user
Speaker 3: friendly terms. But kind of a prior question is how
Speaker 3: if we just call it mindsets? Now? How did we
Speaker 3: get to the point of thinking that mindsets could play
Speaker 3: a role?
Speaker 2: Absolutely?
Speaker 1: And I asked this because correct if I'm wrong, But
Speaker 1: wasn't entity and incremental They were called beliefs in your language,
Speaker 1: your original language, there were beliefs, not mindsets.
Speaker 2: Is that right?
Speaker 3: Yeah? But I kind of mean the same thing.
Speaker 2: Okay, I'd love to hear more about that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, In my earliest work, I looked at attributions kids
Speaker 3: made for their successes and failures. Did they think the
Speaker 3: failure measured their ability or did they think the failure
Speaker 3: meant try a new strategy, seek advice, just keep going.
Speaker 3: But eventually we said, why does failure have such a
Speaker 3: negative meaning for some kids and kind of an informative
Speaker 3: meaning for other kids? And in the early nineteen eighties,
Speaker 3: working with Mary van door Albander is a daughter, I
Speaker 3: was going to ask you, we suddenly realize, you know,
Speaker 3: when you think you're being measured and that judgment is
Speaker 3: really important, doesn't that kind of imply that you have
Speaker 3: this fixed thing that's being judged, And if you think
Speaker 3: it's just a failure it is just a clue for
Speaker 3: changing your strategy or trying harder, or getting input and
Speaker 3: then learning more. Doesn't that kind of imply that you
Speaker 3: think your ability can be developed? And suddenly we looked
Speaker 3: at each other. It just bowled us over. What if
Speaker 3: people have fundamentally different ideas about intelligence and they're charting
Speaker 3: them around with them and it's affecting how they view challenges,
Speaker 3: how they view setbacks. Well, you know, there was no
Speaker 3: stopping us at that.
Speaker 1: Point, Hi, everyone, just wanted to take a quick break
Speaker 1: and talk about my new book that's coming out April seventh.
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Speaker 1: What I've been what I've done in this book is
Speaker 1: I've taken Maslow's classic hierarchy of Needs and I've revised
Speaker 1: it for the twenty first century, trying to bring back
Speaker 1: humanistic psychology. I think that the field of humanistic psychology
Speaker 1: in the fifties and sixties really got a lot right
Speaker 1: about humanity and the creative possibilities of humans as well
Speaker 1: as the humanitarian and spiritual possibilities. Really hoping this book
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Speaker 1: actually pre order it right now on Amazon as well
Speaker 1: as other there's independent bookstores I think you can pre
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Speaker 1: that should be in bookstores a lot of people in
Speaker 1: wondering throughout the years how they can support me and
Speaker 1: the Psychology podcast, And here's the time. You know, you're
Speaker 1: always welcome to contribute money to the podcast, help support it.
Speaker 1: If you're a longtime listener or even short time listener,
Speaker 1: you want to not only support the podcast but dive
Speaker 1: deeper into a lot of the concepts and ideas we
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Speaker 1: check the book out and let me know what you think.
Speaker 1: There was a influence of research around that as well,
Speaker 1: because I remember my colleague josh Ronson was also doing
Speaker 1: some research that I think contributed to that. This overall
Speaker 1: idea of the malleability of our beliefs fact.
Speaker 3: Joshua Aaron's and his colleagues Catherine Good, Mickey Insulict, Carrie Free.
Speaker 3: They they did some of the first mindset interventions. Yes,
Speaker 3: before we published any interventions, we had published mindset experiments
Speaker 3: where we measured or changed people's mindsets within an experimental
Speaker 3: situation to look at the impact. But Joshua Aronson, Catherine
Speaker 3: Good and their colleagues did the first actual interventions where
Speaker 3: they changed students mindsets and compared to a control group.
Speaker 3: They taught a growth mindset, the idea that abilities can
Speaker 3: be developed, and looked at what happened to grades or
Speaker 3: achievement test scores over time. Those were the first, I
Speaker 3: would say, landmark studies that took some of the ideas
Speaker 3: we had developed and really put them to the test.
Speaker 3: Really for the first time, fulfilled my dream of bottling it,
Speaker 3: what were these kids' secrets and delivering it. So that
Speaker 3: was very exciting research, and we followed it with some
Speaker 3: these were in person interventions. We followed it a few
Speaker 3: years later with a study Blackwell, Tresnievsky, and Wack two
Speaker 3: thousand and seven, and we were very excited that we
Speaker 3: that others and we could do these in person interventions
Speaker 3: that could have an impact on grades or achievement test scores.
Speaker 3: This was very, very exciting, but it was limited. It
Speaker 3: was limited because it costs a fortune. For the Blackwell studies,
Speaker 3: we had a big grant from the William T. Grant Foundation.
Speaker 3: We had something like a dozen research assistants that went
Speaker 3: out to the school several times a week, and you
Speaker 3: can't scale that up, so that posed a big problem.
Speaker 2: I could see that.
Speaker 3: I could see that, you could validate the ideas, but
Speaker 3: you couldn't really scale it up. Then two kind of
Speaker 3: big things happened. One was that Dave Penescu stand for
Speaker 3: PhD created a platform for delivering educational interventions online to schools.
Speaker 3: Of course, then we had to create interventions that were
Speaker 3: amenable to that. We had to kind of distill the
Speaker 3: mindset interventions.
Speaker 1: Can you describe one of the interventions, like, what if
Speaker 1: I was one of the kids, what would I see?
Speaker 3: Well, i'll tell you what we do now. We built
Speaker 3: upon We built upon these interventions, and the early ones
Speaker 3: had a lot of this, but i'll tell you what
Speaker 3: we do now. The mindset interventions are aimed at adolescents
Speaker 3: because they're self administered ninth graders.
Speaker 2: You've done a lot with ninth graders, right, yes, yeah, okay.
Speaker 3: Ninth graders and older. So first, the downfall of a
Speaker 3: lot of adolescent interventions is that people say to them, hey,
Speaker 3: we're grown ups, and we know how you should think, Well,
Speaker 3: you've already lost them, right, That's not what teenagers are.
Speaker 2: Going to start there. I wouldn't start there.
Speaker 3: So we start with, hey, we're developing these programs. We
Speaker 3: study learning. We're experts in that, but you are the experts,
Speaker 3: say in the in high school or the transition to
Speaker 3: high school, whichever is appropriate, and we need to learn
Speaker 3: from you what it's like and how we can change
Speaker 3: our program in the future to take advantage of your knowledge.
Speaker 3: We respect them in so many other ways. First, we
Speaker 3: explain the growth mindset in terms of the neuroscience of learning,
Speaker 3: with graphs and so on, in a way that really
Speaker 3: treats them like the intelligent people they are. We have
Speaker 3: quotes from older students who have been through a version
Speaker 3: of the program before. We have quotes from esteemed figures
Speaker 3: in the world. We just found them on social media
Speaker 3: or the internet. And we all so have exercises originally
Speaker 3: created by Joshua Aronson to internalize a growth mindset. We said, Hey,
Speaker 3: suppose there's a ninth grade student next year and this
Speaker 3: student is struggling. Could you write a letter to this
Speaker 3: student and giving them encouragement in terms of the growth
Speaker 3: mindset principles you've learned, and we kind of list those
Speaker 3: principles and then they write a personal letter to the student.
Speaker 3: These letters are really kind of heartwarming. We also tell
Speaker 3: them why they'd want to have a growth mindset. Now,
Speaker 3: to us nerds, why they didn't want to have a
Speaker 3: growth mindset and grow a stronger brain? To us earns,
Speaker 3: that's obvious. Give me more of those IQ points. I
Speaker 3: want a stronger brain. That's kind of the coint of
Speaker 3: our realm the brain, a strong brain, a smart brain.
Speaker 3: But that may not be true for everyone. And so
Speaker 3: now we say we ask them to think about how
Speaker 3: a stronger brain can help them with their goals in life. So,
Speaker 3: what are your goals in life? What would you like
Speaker 3: to contribute? And how can a stronger brain help you?
Speaker 3: These are so this is the kind of intervention that
Speaker 3: we've developed. And in our big, biggest study to date,
Speaker 3: we worked about two years to hone it. Two years
Speaker 3: of honing the program and piloting, rehooning and repiloting.
Speaker 1: Is that the National Study of Learning Mindsets? Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: the big mama.
Speaker 3: Yes, we had a pre registered, large scale study before that,
Speaker 3: But this was the big mama of prestirred that the
Speaker 3: hypotheses were pre registered, the analyzes who were pre registered.
Speaker 3: But let me back up and say, sure, this was
Speaker 3: a wacky idea, which was what was the national study?
Speaker 2: Okay, not growth mindset there.
Speaker 3: That's pretty wacky. But in around twenty fifteen, David Yaeger,
Speaker 3: professor at the University of Texas, now had this wacky idea.
Speaker 3: He can meaned a White House conference to kind of
Speaker 3: air the idea. I would say the idea was foolhardy,
Speaker 3: but he's kind of visionary. So we all went along
Speaker 3: with it and we all worked super hard on it.
Speaker 3: But it is kind of wacky that you can think
Speaker 3: about delivering a growth mindset intervention to a large national
Speaker 3: sample of ninth graders, making that travision.
Speaker 2: Was it nationally representative?
Speaker 3: Yes? Wow, okay, was nationally representative one of the first
Speaker 3: psychological interventions or maybe the to be done with a
Speaker 3: nationally representative sample. David engaged a series of several research firms,
Speaker 3: one to constitute the sample and conduct the intervention, supervise
Speaker 3: the interventions, one to harvest the data, so it was
Speaker 3: really hands off. He also engaged a group of Baysian
Speaker 3: statisticians to analyze the data blind to make sure that
Speaker 3: our analyzes were entirely seaworthy. Yeah, so across the nation
Speaker 3: went out our two sessions total of fifty minutes Growth
Speaker 3: Mindset Intervention versus a control intervention that looked very much
Speaker 3: the same but just taught about the brain and its
Speaker 3: functions but didn't teach a growth mindset.
Speaker 2: I see, And.
Speaker 3: I think one of the most wonderful parts of this
Speaker 3: study was this we over sampled sites where we thought
Speaker 3: it wouldn't work. I think it's unusual formal searchers to
Speaker 3: seek their own non replication.
Speaker 2: Well, you're curious what contexts it might not work?
Speaker 3: Right, Yes, so where doesn't it replicate? No, psychological anything
Speaker 3: works everywhere? And what could we learn from that in
Speaker 3: order to improve our results and the results for kids
Speaker 3: in the future. We always want to know where are
Speaker 3: we wrong and what can we learn from And we
Speaker 3: have a whole history of being somewhat wrong and learning
Speaker 3: from it. And I can enumerate that if you'd be interested.
Speaker 3: But first I probably should finish the national Yeah.
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear that though, and we'll have time
Speaker 1: to talk about that. But yeah, tell me about the
Speaker 1: results that you found to just finish up the thread
Speaker 1: on this big study.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely. The first thing we found was that there
Speaker 3: was a meaningful increase in grade point average for the
Speaker 3: lower achieving kids who were in the growth Mindset Intervention group.
Speaker 3: They were the pre registered group of targeted kids for
Speaker 3: the increase in grades.
Speaker 2: You know what the effects size was.
Speaker 3: The effects size was something that sounds small, all zero
Speaker 3: point one one.
Speaker 1: That's like you're talking about like seven seventh for the
Speaker 1: fourteen and thirty? Was it something like that the end?
Speaker 3: Yeah, depending on which analysis something like that. Okay, and
Speaker 3: with grades could be matched up.
Speaker 1: And wait, so that the effect size you just said,
Speaker 1: was that for the the well achieving group in particular
Speaker 1: or okay? Yeah, so it was even smaller for the
Speaker 1: average of everyone.
Speaker 3: Yes, there was no effect as we had predicted for
Speaker 3: the higher achieve Now we went into the literature because
Speaker 3: that's about what we were getting in our pilot. And
Speaker 3: you could say, whoa, that's negligible. Look at Cohen's effect
Speaker 3: sizes or Hatties effect sizes. For education. You would need
Speaker 3: like a microscope.
Speaker 2: I was going to say that. Yeah, I was gonna say.
Speaker 3: We went into oh, well that you have.
Speaker 2: A microscope on your desk right there. It's what I
Speaker 2: call that out.
Speaker 1: That's pretty like you do that against I could take
Speaker 1: a screen capture of that. I love that, Okay, God,
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 3: So we went We went into the literature on educational
Speaker 3: interventions and we found something pretty startling. The most successful
Speaker 3: interventions with adolescens, even large scale, expensive ones, seem to
Speaker 3: top out at about point two. It's and when we're
Speaker 3: talking about long term outcomes like grades not on a
Speaker 3: test a few days later for what you just taught,
Speaker 3: but grades over time point two. When you look at adolescens,
Speaker 3: what's the effect of a year of schooling on achievement
Speaker 3: test scores? Point two? What's the effect of an excellent
Speaker 3: teacher versus an average teacher for adolescents point two? And
Speaker 3: a big study that was done funded through i EES
Speaker 3: on the most promising educational interventions, they too topped out
Speaker 3: at point two. When they were subjected to a rigorous test,
Speaker 3: they topped out at about point two two point two three.
Speaker 3: So the fact that we got half of that with
Speaker 3: a five to zero minute intervention that costs like twenty
Speaker 3: five cents fifty cents really just the minimal, minimal. We
Speaker 3: are excited. And then when we looked into the Munge literature,
Speaker 3: their most aside from opt in opt out, which has
Speaker 3: huge effects, most of the famous effects are between point
Speaker 3: one and point two.
Speaker 2: My gosh, there's just there's nothing that really like is dramatic.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and many medical effects that we can cite are
Speaker 3: kind of like that. So that was really eye opening.
Speaker 2: It's eye opening in a number of ways.
Speaker 1: One way, I'm more shocked that how come no one's
Speaker 1: been able to develop an educational intervention that is striking,
Speaker 1: you know, above point five point six.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, a lot of things work better with younger kids.
Speaker 3: It's hard to reach adolescens. One on one tutoring with
Speaker 3: great tutors can get you more. But these kind of
Speaker 3: whole sale, large scale interventions, it's just so multiply determined.
Speaker 3: There are so many reasons kids aren't achieving. There are
Speaker 3: so many reasons they may reject or not profit from
Speaker 3: an intervention.
Speaker 1: So yeah, and I would even say that, you're I've
Speaker 1: actually seen larger effects than even that. With the twenty
Speaker 1: eighteen meta analysis, they they found it effect size I
Speaker 1: think of point three four for low sees from students
Speaker 1: from low sees homes benefited from the mindset programs. I've
Speaker 1: seen effect size of point three four, So that's even
Speaker 1: yeah bigger.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's even bigger.
Speaker 1: But that's not very weak effects for you know, just
Speaker 1: like you found for other, you know, higher achieving or
Speaker 1: highest higher s students.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, And so those that larger effect size include
Speaker 3: some of the face to face ones that did get larger.
Speaker 3: The blackwell, they aaron since those did get larger effect sizes.
Speaker 3: But when you scale up and condense the program and
Speaker 3: you're not tailoring it or you're not really interacting with
Speaker 3: particular kids, and also the large scale are intent to treat,
Speaker 3: You've got kids in there who can't read, who can't
Speaker 3: pay attention on their own, so that deflates the effect sizes.
Speaker 3: But it was just so eye opening to see how
Speaker 3: hard it is to do anything. So we were pretty
Speaker 3: happy with what we could do. And also the fact
Speaker 3: if you multiply it by all the kids who are
Speaker 3: ninth graders, that could you know, reorient some of them.
Speaker 3: The second finding was.
Speaker 2: I'm like on the edge of my seat here.
Speaker 3: On gosh, we were on the edges of our seats.
Speaker 3: So the second finding was because you might say, oh, gross,
Speaker 3: mindset interventions are not for higher achieving kids, They're just
Speaker 3: for lower achieving kids, but that wouldn't be true. Across
Speaker 3: the achievement levels. We saw an increase in advanced math
Speaker 3: course taking that electing of an advanced math course a
Speaker 3: year later in tenth grade, and this was even slightly
Speaker 3: greater among the higher achieving kids, probably because there were
Speaker 3: more advanced math courses in their schools or because they
Speaker 3: had more of the found but yes, more advanced math
Speaker 3: taking a year later. We were very excited about this.
Speaker 3: And again, although this was a few percentage points, that's
Speaker 3: what they get. And actually Danny Kahneman, reviewing the Nudge studies, says, hey,
Speaker 3: in the real world, a few percentage points, you know, again,
Speaker 3: multiplied by a lot of people at a low cost,
Speaker 3: that's pretty good.
Speaker 1: I think that is a fair point. Absolutely, you know, Matthew,
Speaker 1: effects are important. You know, the rich get rich or
Speaker 1: poor get poor kind of idea. These these things can snowball,
Speaker 1: especially if you start really really young.
Speaker 3: Yes, they can stable. And another way you can think
Speaker 3: of them over time is you do a little better
Speaker 3: a little choices along the way. It's not just one
Speaker 3: time or so, you do a little better overall. You
Speaker 3: take an advanced math course, you graduate from high school,
Speaker 3: you choose to seek higher edgy, so just little if
Speaker 3: you can shift enough of those little choices, you're having
Speaker 3: an impact.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd love to hear more about the conditions which
Speaker 1: it didn't work, because I think that would be really
Speaker 1: useful to educators to hear. One thing you told me
Speaker 1: or that is in the paper as well, is that
Speaker 1: it didn't work when peer norms weren't favorable.
Speaker 2: Is that right? Can you elaborate what that means for
Speaker 2: teachers who are listening.
Speaker 3: So at the end of the second session of the
Speaker 3: mindset intervention and the control group, we asked kids whether
Speaker 3: they wanted to work if there was enough time, whether
Speaker 3: they wanted to choose some problems that were easy and
Speaker 3: they'd be sure to get right, and we showed them
Speaker 3: that on a math worksheet that was keyed into their
Speaker 3: math curriculum, or challenging problems that they might that were
Speaker 3: hard but they could learn something useful. So for each school,
Speaker 3: just zeroing in on the control group, we could see
Speaker 3: was this a school full of challenge loving peers or
Speaker 3: challenge denying peers. What we found was that when a
Speaker 3: child in the growth mindset condition dwelled within a challenge
Speaker 3: rejecting school, we saw that the kids in the growth
Speaker 3: mindset condition were themselves choosing more challenging problems than their peers.
Speaker 3: But the question was could they take their growth mindset
Speaker 3: out into the real world now and have it take
Speaker 3: root and flourish and turn into higher grades. And the
Speaker 3: answer was, when you have peers, if you take your
Speaker 3: kind of new or enhance growth mindset learning and you
Speaker 3: look interested in school work and you work harder, and
Speaker 3: you ask the teacher for input or you start answering
Speaker 3: questions in class and your peers don't like that, you're
Speaker 3: not going to do it.
Speaker 1: So that's a really int really interesting finding. And then
Speaker 1: another thing you said you're writing up right now is
Speaker 1: potentially the role of teacher mindset, like whether if a
Speaker 1: teacher has a fixed mindset, does that have an effect
Speaker 1: on the teaching.
Speaker 3: Yes. So we in the study we studied math teachers
Speaker 3: in particular. That's a subject that kids find really hard,
Speaker 3: and yet we know that the future world is really
Speaker 3: wanting kids to be savvy and math tech, et cetera.
Speaker 3: So we found that if you're math teacher, and now
Speaker 3: we're focusing on math grades, if your math teacher had
Speaker 3: more of a growth mindset reported having more of a
Speaker 3: growth mindset, you showed enhanced as you know, as a group,
Speaker 3: on average, you showed enhanced grades in math at the
Speaker 3: end of the year. But if you're math teacher reported
Speaker 3: having a fixed mindset, the growth mindset intervention did not work.
Speaker 3: It did not take root. Again at the end of
Speaker 3: the second session, these kids want to challenge it, but
Speaker 3: again you kind of take it out into the world,
Speaker 3: your new or enhance growth mindset, and you say, does
Speaker 3: it work here? So maybe you try a little harder.
Speaker 3: Does the teacher notice and respond? Maybe your grade goes
Speaker 3: up a little, Does the teacher notice and respond? Maybe
Speaker 3: you look for opportunities to revise your work and get credit.
Speaker 3: Are there those opportunities? So we look at it now
Speaker 3: as the teachers creating either opportunities in the classroom or
Speaker 3: reactions in the classroom that support the nascent or newly
Speaker 3: increased growth mindset, or that kind of nip it in
Speaker 3: the bud.
Speaker 2: Are the good? Are they good coaches?
Speaker 3: Or not?
Speaker 2: In a sense?
Speaker 3: Oh, so, here's this child coming off of growth mindset intervention,
Speaker 3: maybe willing to work harder, willing to get more instruction,
Speaker 3: wanting to be recognized and appreciated by the teacher. And
Speaker 3: it is or isn't there.
Speaker 1: H all just a quick break to let you all
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Speaker 1: I have a question. I was thinking as you were talking,
Speaker 1: there is such a focus in this research on academic
Speaker 1: achievement as the dependent variable. Have you looked at like
Speaker 1: the relationship between growth mindset interventions? And you know there
Speaker 1: are other things in life, right, so like meaning in
Speaker 1: life or well being or personal growth or whole or
Speaker 1: you know, so so many other things that you know,
Speaker 1: social relationships, other things that are important in school as well.
Speaker 1: Has anyone ever looked at other outcomes? Yes, yay, okay,
Speaker 1: I dine here what they've found.
Speaker 3: But interesting, why do we focus on grades, testkers, et cetera. Well,
Speaker 3: first of all, they are important, and they become more
Speaker 3: and more important in the modern world too. But we
Speaker 3: and let me just stay in that domain for a minute.
Speaker 3: We things that a growth mindset gets you to the
Speaker 3: grades because of a greater desire for learning and a
Speaker 3: greater interest in errors and neuroscience work by Moser, Schroeder
Speaker 3: and College shows different brain responses to error. So we're
Speaker 3: really in the business of creating more engaged learners. What
Speaker 3: is the world gonna listen if it doesn't lead to
Speaker 3: higher grades? We weren't so sure.
Speaker 2: Well, that's so sad.
Speaker 3: I know it's sad.
Speaker 2: What if it leads to higher self actualization? No one
Speaker 2: cares about that.
Speaker 3: Not yet. You've got to measure that self actualization in
Speaker 3: some way, right, higher income?
Speaker 2: No, that's not how I would.
Speaker 3: But what do personal.
Speaker 1: Fulfillment doesn't personal fulfillment matter anymore these days?
Speaker 2: Did it ever matter me?
Speaker 3: To me? Personal fulfillment and contribution that's the be all
Speaker 3: and end all, and or personal fulfillment through contribution that
Speaker 3: is the be all and the personal growth that's everything
Speaker 3: to me. But we also want to show the world
Speaker 3: that it does both.
Speaker 1: So you have there are studies then that go beyond
Speaker 1: academic achievement. I'd love to see those studies.
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, so right, So David Jaeger
Speaker 3: has a whole line of research on changing mindsets about personality.
Speaker 3: He started it when he was a PhD student at Stanford.
Speaker 2: He's been very prolific in his career.
Speaker 3: I know, he's fantastic and yeah, he he's visionary and
Speaker 3: the amount energy he has is extraordinary. So anyway, he
Speaker 3: teaches key, did the groundwork and then did interventions teaching
Speaker 3: kids that personality is not fixed, personal skills, social skills
Speaker 3: need not be fixed. That everybody is capable, everybody has
Speaker 3: the potential for change. By the way, we don't say
Speaker 3: change is likely or inevitable or infinite or infinite.
Speaker 1: Not everyone can be you know, intellectually gifted, right.
Speaker 3: Open question. Yeah, but we don't know who can or
Speaker 3: who can't. Let's just but everyone has the potential for growth.
Speaker 3: The reason I say we don't know is we don't
Speaker 3: know what anyone's asymptoe is. We don't know what anyone's
Speaker 3: high point on their trajectory is. I don't want to
Speaker 3: be in the business of deciding in advance who can
Speaker 3: be brilliant and who can't, because I take as my
Speaker 3: expert Albert Einstein. He says I really was a slow learner.
Speaker 3: He says, everyone thought they understood light and mess and
Speaker 3: speed and energy, and I just kept saying I don't
Speaker 3: get it. Well, he ended up reconceptualizing the whole thing.
Speaker 1: I've read that his early I read that some of
Speaker 1: that was over overplayed. His early difficulties were when you
Speaker 1: actually look into it. He actually was a good student.
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm not talking about whether he was a good student.
Speaker 3: He was. He says, I was slow to understand. Others
Speaker 3: understood it faster than I did. But it turns out
Speaker 3: they didn't understand it as deeply as he did.
Speaker 1: Did He Like, you know, he was sitting in the
Speaker 1: classroom and he was able to just imagine what it
Speaker 1: would be like being on a beam of light. Through space.
Speaker 1: I mean that seems like that came easier to him
Speaker 1: than others that that visualization.
Speaker 3: But the point I'm trying to make is that there
Speaker 3: were there have been many students who didn't seem promising
Speaker 3: to their teachers who went on to do great things
Speaker 3: really colleagues. Ever, and the late Anne Brown was labeled
Speaker 3: retarded when she was teenager in England because she hadn't
Speaker 3: yet learned to read. In my book, I talk about
Speaker 3: a scientist who I think a Nobel Prize winner but
Speaker 3: some a great scientist. He later in life found his
Speaker 3: school records and found out he had a pretty low
Speaker 3: or IQ, or a lower IQ than he thought. He
Speaker 3: says he might not have tried to be a scientist.
Speaker 3: So I just I don't like deciding in advance.
Speaker 1: I think that is a really good point. I've heard
Speaker 1: some thoughts from the giftedness gift education community. Some of
Speaker 1: them have drawn on your work as suggesting that you're
Speaker 1: denying the existence of intellectual giftness at any point in time,
Speaker 1: and I was wanting to want to hear some of
Speaker 1: your thoughts on that.
Speaker 3: Oh no, I do not deny, and it's it should
Speaker 3: be clear from some of my writing and even in
Speaker 3: the book Mindset, I don't deny that some kids are
Speaker 3: precocious and should be supported. Every child should be challenged.
Speaker 3: Every child should be taught to love challenge and not
Speaker 3: allowed to be bored in school if they want to
Speaker 3: take a college course and they're nine years old. I
Speaker 3: am so totally in favor of that. I favorite of
Speaker 3: parents pushing the kids constantly. But when that Ellen Winner
Speaker 3: calls it the rage to learn?
Speaker 2: Is there to master? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Age to master? Yeah, go with it. A lot of
Speaker 3: educators have wrongly interpreted so again in Mindset, I talk
Speaker 3: about these incredibly precocious kids, people have said, oh, cut
Speaker 3: out gifted and talent in my name have said cut
Speaker 3: out gifted and talented programs have said, you know, homogenized kids,
Speaker 3: and in ways that don't challenge the kids who are
Speaker 3: more advanced. I don't agree with that.
Speaker 1: You're not saying that for the record, you're not saying that, Okay, cool.
Speaker 1: I think that'll really make a lot of people in
Speaker 1: the gift education can be really happy to hear that.
Speaker 3: I don't say there aren't things to change and learn.
Speaker 3: I thinks kids who are are way advanced must be
Speaker 3: kept engaged in learning, not just being gifted and talented.
Speaker 3: Must love challenges again, rather than thinking, oh, if I
Speaker 3: make mistakes, maybe they won't think I'm a genius. Don't
Speaker 3: make them into who I was in Missus Wilson's class,
Speaker 3: learn from what almost happened to me.
Speaker 1: That's interesting, you know, when you think of the rook
Speaker 1: you've done on the importance of praising effort, you could
Speaker 1: see how a child who is very, very precocious, who
Speaker 1: things do come very easy for them, and they can
Speaker 1: just quickly memorize things and ace tests without studying. If
Speaker 1: you apply that theory of teaching them praising them for
Speaker 1: their effort, that will feel quite inauthentic to those students,
Speaker 1: don't you think so?
Speaker 3: We we say more than praising the effort. It happened
Speaker 3: in that series of studies. We chose one form of
Speaker 3: process praise, but growth mindset has sometimes been oversimplified to
Speaker 3: say it's about effort and praising effort, and as you say,
Speaker 3: it would be inauthentic to praise their effort.
Speaker 1: And also, I am wondering is it really bad to
Speaker 1: praise intelligence?
Speaker 2: Is that bad? In a minute, Okay, we'll get to that.
Speaker 3: Back to this precocious child. If they're challenged, they should
Speaker 3: sometimes be struggling and working hard. You can encourage them
Speaker 3: to try different strategies. If they're stock, you can show
Speaker 3: their progress over time, and you can show how the
Speaker 3: effort yielded some results over time. If they're only doing
Speaker 3: stuff that is quick and easy, then you don't get
Speaker 3: a chance to keep them loving and respecting and appreciating
Speaker 3: the process. So kids at every level of current ability
Speaker 3: should be shown that challenges are interesting, easy is boring
Speaker 3: that when they're stuck trying new strategies, enlist aid, ramp
Speaker 3: up the effort and see the progress. All kids should
Speaker 3: be doing that.
Speaker 2: Good.
Speaker 1: I'm really glad that we talked about that. I saw
Speaker 1: an interesting study by Iaan Bates from twenty seventeen that
Speaker 1: I don't think was published. I emailed Timothy Bates about
Speaker 1: this and he doesn't respond yet to my email, so
Speaker 1: I want to sell on the record. It was just
Speaker 1: a preprint I found. But they found an interesting thing.
Speaker 1: They found that children's mindsets showed no relationship to IQ,
Speaker 1: so it's uncorrelated to IQ. School grades are changing grades
Speaker 1: across the school year, with the only significant result being
Speaker 1: in the reverse direction better performance and children holding a
Speaker 1: fixed mindset. I wonder from a causal perspective, if you
Speaker 1: do genuinely have an extraordinarily high IQ, and some kids
Speaker 1: do at certain points in time. And I'm right there
Speaker 1: with you, by the way, Carol, we should write off kids,
Speaker 1: you know, with the lower IQs or kids with lower achievements.
Speaker 2: I'm right there with you.
Speaker 1: But there are kids who do have extraordinly high IQs.
Speaker 1: You could see from a cultural perspective that they could
Speaker 1: actually rightfully develop a fixed mindset if things are coming
Speaker 1: that easily to them, that actually matches their reality more
Speaker 1: than lower IQ students. And I wanted to see what
Speaker 1: you thought about that.
Speaker 3: I'm I'm really interested in that.
Speaker 2: Cool a fixed if you have.
Speaker 3: If you have a fixed mindset and you say to
Speaker 3: your so it's fixed, and I've got it, and you
Speaker 3: never doubt it.
Speaker 1: Oh, that'll be tricky when they actually do face challenges someday, right, babe.
Speaker 3: But in the moment until that happens, they could be fine.
Speaker 2: They could be fine.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they could be fine.
Speaker 2: Dix.
Speaker 1: Mindset's not always a necessarily a detrimental thing.
Speaker 3: Until you start thinking, oh, I don't want to do this,
Speaker 3: and maybe I'll look dumb. Oh I made a mistake.
Speaker 3: Maybe I'll look them. But if you're super secure in
Speaker 3: your fixed mindset, you can look good and not until
Speaker 3: later when other people start catching up with you. Or
Speaker 3: the other thing is the Lea and Bates studies were
Speaker 3: done in China, and you just found out something really important.
Speaker 3: There's this PISA test that is a worldwide achievement test
Speaker 3: that's given to hundreds of thousands of fifteen year olds
Speaker 3: in seventy across seventy nine countries. Guess how many countries
Speaker 3: in how many countries a growth mindset was at some
Speaker 3: level positively related to PISA Achievement test scores?
Speaker 2: How many countries?
Speaker 3: How many countries that are seventy six out of the
Speaker 3: seventy nine?
Speaker 1: Oh and China was one of that didn't. Yes, well,
Speaker 1: that's well, that is very interesting.
Speaker 3: I'm so intrigued by that. And this is going to
Speaker 3: address a couple of things.
Speaker 2: You add, Oh, that is interesting. Okay.
Speaker 3: Now I'm in touch with a really fantastic young researcher
Speaker 3: in China and he said a few things that were illuminating.
Speaker 3: One of them goes back to something you said before.
Speaker 3: He gave a growth mindset intervention to you know, typically
Speaker 3: high achieving Chinese kids. It got them more intrinsically motivated,
Speaker 3: engaged with learning, It lowered their anxiety. But because it
Speaker 3: didn't raise their achievement, because they were they already apparently
Speaker 3: worked more than fifty hours a week on school work
Speaker 3: out of school, nobody cared. So he's upset about that,
Speaker 3: as you are. And I am that no one cares
Speaker 3: about the well being just the grades.
Speaker 2: But why was I'm glad I'm not the only one, not.
Speaker 3: The only one. But also why wasn't the Chinese score
Speaker 3: positively related to achievement? The growth is it?
Speaker 2: What is it about the Is it something about the culture?
Speaker 3: And yeah, even negatively related to achievement direct correct?
Speaker 1: Because they found in their study that those were the
Speaker 1: fixed mindset actually had higher performance.
Speaker 3: Yes, and that that's what we're seeing in China in
Speaker 3: the PISA results, and I'm working with the PISA people
Speaker 3: to figure that out. It could be that when you're
Speaker 3: in such a high pressure called you know, they're heading
Speaker 3: toward the big high stakes test for getting into college,
Speaker 3: it's really high pressure. If you have a gross mindset,
Speaker 3: maybe you have a more sane attitude about some of
Speaker 3: the things. Maybe you think errors you can learn from
Speaker 3: WHOA instead of errors are not permissible. So it's possible
Speaker 3: that under certain circumstances, having learning goals and thinking errors
Speaker 3: are informative and valuing progress rather than immediate achievement. Maybe
Speaker 3: you're a saner, happier kid, but maybe you're not at
Speaker 3: the top of the achievement distribution anymore.
Speaker 1: Well, that's really would be really interesting for further research. Yeah,
Speaker 1: cross cultural patterns of fixed first growth, mindset, intervention effectiveness.
Speaker 3: And what did it mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be really truly interesting. So I want
Speaker 1: to talk about you know this this this quote unquote
Speaker 1: replication crisis that have been happening in other fields. There's
Speaker 1: this paper I know you love and I'm being sarcastic
Speaker 1: by Alexander Burgone at all in two thout that just
Speaker 1: came out recently, and they really you know, they take
Speaker 1: you to task on saying that you've overclaimed and overhyped
Speaker 1: with some of your prior quotes. Would you still say
Speaker 1: things like the view you adopt yourself profoundly affects you
Speaker 1: lead your life. And they also take your task for
Speaker 1: saying mindset creates different psychological worlds for students and forms
Speaker 1: the core of their meeting systems. So would you would
Speaker 1: you say that those things are in light of the
Speaker 1: most recent effects sizes too dramatic?
Speaker 2: What would you say? Because they really take it into this,
Speaker 2: as you know.
Speaker 3: I know, and I appreciate that they're interested in mindsets
Speaker 3: and they challenge us and we get better. I think,
Speaker 3: given what I said before, how hard it is to
Speaker 3: change grades, achievement tests, scores, anything in the real world,
Speaker 3: I think our effects are striking. The fact that it's
Speaker 3: a fifty minute program that changes achievement for lower achievers
Speaker 3: and changes the course taking a year later. The fact
Speaker 3: that it can be distributed widely at incredibly low costs.
Speaker 3: I think that's striking. I stand by striking.
Speaker 1: Well, well, maybe we can distinguish between striking. It sounds
Speaker 1: like you're saying striking given the noisiness of the real
Speaker 1: world and all the other things that could have depressed
Speaker 1: the effect. I mean, how do we know objectively what
Speaker 1: is striking isn't without looking relative to other kinds of
Speaker 1: interventions and the goals and the outcomes.
Speaker 2: And I mean I've seen some higher effects.
Speaker 1: Well, I've seen some self efficacy interventions, don't they They're
Speaker 1: they're quite higher in terms of effect size.
Speaker 3: Well, you have to have the benchmarks. I don't know
Speaker 3: the self efficacy literature or self efficacy interventions. It's possible
Speaker 3: that they're higher. We view gross mindset as one path
Speaker 3: to efficacy and then the maintaining of efficacy over time
Speaker 3: in the face of challenge.
Speaker 1: I'm looking at okay, so, and thank you for being
Speaker 1: so open. This is a credit to you to be
Speaker 1: so have such open, honest, intellectual honesty to discuss these
Speaker 1: things with me.
Speaker 2: So, first of all, I want to say thank you.
Speaker 2: I'm looking at this. Hey.
Speaker 1: Hattie, Biggs and Perty nineteen ninety six found metaanatic average
Speaker 1: effect sides for the typical educational intervention on active performance
Speaker 1: be point five to seven. It looks like the average
Speaker 1: intervention is actually point five to seven. All met aanatotic
Speaker 1: analytic effects of mindset interventions and actual performance, like in
Speaker 1: the SISCMA analysis are less than point three to five,
Speaker 1: and most were nol as in that. That's what the
Speaker 1: cisc at all in twenty eighteen paper, and you found
Speaker 1: that as well. So would I mean you could see also,
Speaker 1: could you could see ALSOE could say striking is over
Speaker 1: absolutely yeah.
Speaker 3: But it turns out that many of the studies in
Speaker 3: the Hattie interventions were the cheating of particular information in
Speaker 3: class and then the testing of that information in class,
Speaker 3: which is very different. We don't teach anything of content,
Speaker 3: We change a mindset and then we look at grades
Speaker 3: in the real world over time, very different from teaching
Speaker 3: particular content and testing it. And I know John Hattie,
Speaker 3: he's looking into this now and he's a big fan
Speaker 3: of our work. I think he now agrees that you
Speaker 3: have different benchmarks for different kinds of interventions. But you know, Scott,
Speaker 3: the one thing I want to emphasize, we're not perfect,
Speaker 3: and no intervention works everywhere. I think what I want
Speaker 3: to emphasize too, is we're not done. We consider our
Speaker 3: intervention work to be in its infancy. I want to
Speaker 3: look back one day when we learn how to create
Speaker 3: growth mindset sustaining environments, and I want to look back
Speaker 3: and say, Wow, we have much bigger effect sizes now,
Speaker 3: which we think we will have when we learn how
Speaker 3: to teach teachers to create growth mindset producing and sustaining environments.
Speaker 3: We don't know how to do that yet. We call
Speaker 3: this our next big mount Everest. It's hard to change teachers,
Speaker 3: it's hard to change contexts. But we feel strongly that
Speaker 3: we will not understand the power of mindset to change
Speaker 3: children's trajectories until we can help create those contexts.
Speaker 2: Thank you for elaborating that.
Speaker 1: You know, some educators might get this idea that they
Speaker 1: should be focusing on growth mindset interventions at the cost
Speaker 1: of actually teaching skills and abilities and knowledge. You're not
Speaker 1: talking about the Secret here, right, you know the book
Speaker 1: The Secret where whatever you believe is going to be true.
Speaker 2: I mean I can't.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you have really, really like no talent,
Speaker 1: Like when I was a kid, I could have all
Speaker 1: the growth mindset in the world about being in the NBA,
Speaker 1: and trust me, I wanted to be a great basketball player.
Speaker 1: But I don't think all the growth minds in the
Speaker 1: world would have really gotten me there.
Speaker 2: So can you kind of put this in context? I
Speaker 2: guess as what I'm trying to.
Speaker 3: Say, absolutely, mindset is not a miracle maker. Mindset is
Speaker 3: a growth mindset, is something that supports your being a learner,
Speaker 3: And what we want to do is help teachers understand
Speaker 3: how to integrate it into their teaching and teaching practices
Speaker 3: effectively to support students self advocacy about learning as well
Speaker 3: as they're learning. I think we underestimated how easy it
Speaker 3: would be to identify the practices that really worked and
Speaker 3: to teach the practices that really work. In fact, in
Speaker 3: the beginning, I thought it was going to be just
Speaker 3: intuitive for teachers. I got after I published the book Mindset.
Speaker 3: I got all these emails where teachers said, I did
Speaker 3: these four things and here's what happened in my class,
Speaker 3: And I thought, wow, that's amazing. And I still believe
Speaker 3: they did that, But now I think they already had
Speaker 3: kind of a growth mindset and understanding of how to
Speaker 3: apply it, and the book kind of crystallized it and
Speaker 3: allowed them to kind of run with it. But after that,
Speaker 3: aided by my Australian colleague Susan Mackie, who said, you know,
Speaker 3: I'm seeing a lot of false growth mindset in classrooms,
Speaker 3: she really opened my eyes to the fact that it's
Speaker 3: really hard to deeply teach what a growth mindset is
Speaker 3: and how to apply it. And again, that's our next
Speaker 3: big mount Everest. We don't know how to do that yet.
Speaker 2: That's exciting to me.
Speaker 1: To hear about your your most excited what you're most
Speaker 1: excited for in terms of future directions.
Speaker 2: So that's that's the big mount. And do you want
Speaker 2: to leave today?
Speaker 1: I'm so I'm so respectful of your time and and
Speaker 1: and and excited that you spent so much time with me.
Speaker 1: But what sleep, Here's anything else you want to say
Speaker 1: directly talking to to all the educators that are listening
Speaker 1: to this who really are excited about growth mind so
Speaker 1: they want to apply in their classroom, but they want
Speaker 1: to they.
Speaker 2: Want to do it the right way. You know, anything
Speaker 2: you can say to them?
Speaker 3: Yes, perts dot net p e r t s dot
Speaker 3: net founded by David Dave pound Escu I mentioned earlier
Speaker 3: give some tips, but stay tuned because over the next
Speaker 3: few years we hope to collaborate intensely with teachers who
Speaker 3: create classrooms full of students with growth mindsets. We hope
Speaker 3: to collaborate with many other researchers to climb that Mount Everest.
Speaker 3: And at the end of that, when we're at the summit,
Speaker 3: we would like to give you all the gift of
Speaker 3: a growth mindset curriculum that teachers can truly effectively implement.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 1: The stakes are high here and we have children's lives,
Speaker 1: you know, at Stakecare. So I wish this research very well,
Speaker 1: and I wish you very well, and I want to
Speaker 1: thank you. I want to end by saying I put
Speaker 1: a call on my Twitter.
Speaker 2: Are you on Twitter?
Speaker 1: You probably didn't even see this. I said, I'm so excited.
Speaker 1: I'm telling you with Cayle due anything you want me
Speaker 1: to ask you to ask And I got so many
Speaker 1: questions to ask you today, but one thing, and I
Speaker 1: wanted to leave you with. Someone just wrote, oh MG,
Speaker 1: just tell her thank you. So I just want to
Speaker 1: end on that note. So thanks for all the work
Speaker 1: and energy you've put into this research over the years,
Speaker 1: and your willingness and openness to seeing how the research
Speaker 1: evolves in the future.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Scott. This it was just great talking.
Speaker 2: To you, so exciting. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of The Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 1: If you'd like to react in some way to something
Speaker 1: you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion
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