WEBVTT - Whine About it: Good Grief 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:05.400 Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio podcast. 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:08.840 This week's Thursday Therapy, We've got Chris Carr. She's a 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:12.360 multiple New York Times best selling author, wellness activist, and 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:15.640 cancer thriver. She's been called a force of nature by 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:18.400 Oh the Oprah Magazine and was named a new role 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:20.919 Model by The New York Times. Chris is also a 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:24.479 member of Oprah's Super Soul one hundred. She's got a 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:27.600 new book that's called I'm Not a Morning Person, Braving Loss, 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:29.880 Grief and the big messy emotions that happen when life 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:33.000 falls apart. Thank you so much for coming on to 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:33.519 wind Down. 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:35.839 Thanks for having me. It's good to be here. 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:41.080 I have Kristen with me because she's kind of been 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:45.800 She's had a rough year with some loss, and so 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:47.519 when I was reading the breakdown, and I was like, 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:50.800 I'm not a morning person and mourning as in like mourning, 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:53.840 braving loss, grief and the big messy emotions that happen 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:57.320 when life falls apart, and I just was like, you know, 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:00.279 you've you've had twenty years of living and thriving with 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:05.520 incurable stage is for cancer, right, that's correct, and and 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:08.880 that you still like, have stage four cancer. 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:10.240 I do. 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:11.399 Wow. 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:17.440 I mean you're so calm, I know. I was just like, well, 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:21.920 I have a book, yeah. 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:24.000 So does the morning. Okay, so just tell me this 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:28.520 is the morning and the grief go into every part 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:30.600 of your life? Like, is the morning and the grief 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:36.800 in your health? Do you grieve optimal health or the 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:40.800 idea of what your body could do or couldn't do? 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:46.360 I think, you know, just to take a step back. 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:49.520 So I've been living with stage four cancer for twenty 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:54.080 years now, and when I was newly diagnosed, I was terrified, 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:56.920 like anybody would be who goes through what I write 0:01:56.920 --> 0:01:59.600 about in the book, a rupture. It's that moment where 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:03.000 life change. Someone dies, you have a miscarriage, you lose 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:07.640 your job, you know, you go through a divorce. And 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:10.280 I think in those moments, we think that if I 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:13.320 feel any of my feelings, I won't survive them. They'll 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:17.000 somehow take me down. And what I have learned is 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:19.840 the way out is through. It's like that cliche saying, 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:20.720 but it's true. 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:22.000 And so. 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:25.880 This is my seventh book, and it's called I'm Not 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:29.080 a Morning Person. It's about braving brief, grief and loss 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:31.440 and the big, messy emotions that happen when life falls apart, 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:33.600 those ruptures that will happen to each and every one 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.400 of us, big and small, And so the point is 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:40.280 to learn how to navigate these storms, to become a 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:44.280 little bit more emotionally literate, so that we understand what 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:48.400 I call our emotional anatomy, and by doing so, we 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:52.680 start to realize that these feelings that we have are information, 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:58.080 just like grief is information. But for me, it was 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:00.440 the one emotion I didn't want to touch, and so 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:02.520 I realized that that was where I want I needed 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:06.760 to spend a lot of time. My therapist says something 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:08.880 that's so great that I talked about in the book, 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:11.400 which is when the grief train pulls into the station, 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:14.800 it brings all the cars. It's like the old stuff, 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:17.680 stuff you think you're over, and then the emotions that 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:19.960 come with it, like why am I raging? Why am 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:22.720 I filled with shame? Like this is so screwed up? 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:25.400 Why is all this happening? And I think it's just 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:30.880 an opportunity to bring those parts of ourselves back home 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:34.360 and be curious about them, to see what's going on 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:37.920 under the surface. Grief is a master healer. That's what 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:40.200 I've learned. So the thing that I didn't want to 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:43.440 experience in touch. When I finally allowed it in, it 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:47.600 was like a big relief, and then there was a domino, 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:51.600 a domino effective change that started to happen just from 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:53.240 that allowing. 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:58.080 This is probably one of the most validating two minutes 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:02.720 I've ever had, because as I feel so different on 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:05.520 the other side, and not that there is another side, 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:08.520 but just in the journey of grief and loss, and 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:11.920 it's really hard to participate in like what the world 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:14.200 was before. I feel like the world just kind of 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:16.799 kept trudging on and I was stuck in like drying 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:20.520 cement for a while, and in a way I was 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:23.080 envious of the world moving on, But in so many 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:28.000 ways I also knew that I was like deeply inside 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:31.039 of each minute that I was living and sorting things 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:33.479 out and kind of like what will be left will 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:36.600 be left, not because I didn't I'm ignoring it just 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:39.240 because I don't need it anymore, but then trying to 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:42.880 get yourself into a world, trying to like emerge back 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:45.400 into this world that it's almost I described it the 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:49.200 other day as like I've been like cocooned up for 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:51.720 so long, and then I take I open my front 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:53.120 door and I put a big toe out, and I 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:55.359 just feel like everything is noisy and busy and fast, 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:58.800 and I'm going, that's just not how I operate anymore. 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:02.320 And I kind of and apologetically don't operate that way anymore. 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:05.680 But it's very strange to try to describe that to 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:09.680 people that haven't experienced that. How like living slow is 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:12.920 just like that's my default. Now, That's just where I'm at, 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:16.120 and I'm okay with it. But it's so opposite of 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:19.600 what people are used to seeing of me and how 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:23.440 much availability they're used to having of me. So do 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:28.800 you feel like you experience the like sweet slowness as 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:33.480 well coming out of I guess we're never really out 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:35.400 of it, but just in the healing of grief. 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:38.600 Yeah. I think that's a beautiful way to describe it. 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.160 And I love that you said not out of it, 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:43.800 because I think one of the things that we get 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.920 wrong because we come from and we are domesticated in 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:50.920 a grief phobic, messy emotions of our society, right, so 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:53.120 when we come when we live in that place, then 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:56.480 we're taught to push it down and it's physics. 0:05:56.800 --> 0:05:59.920 Or get over it from the abuser. Yeah, get over 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:03.239 move on. It's been forever totally to. 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:05.320 Say that when you push something down, it's going to 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:08.000 come out another way. And to your point about getting 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:11.080 over it, right, there isn't an over, there's through. So 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:14.320 we oftentimes there's a chapter that I write about called 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:19.240 awkward times awkward people, and it's the that we hear 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:22.440 or that we say and it and guess what, we're 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:25.320 all going to step in it? So why not like 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:29.320 understand the train a little bit more? But I think 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:35.280 to your point, I actually have found through this practice 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:40.200 or through this experience that I say no to a 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:41.840 lot more than I used to say no. 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:44.400 To, so much more interested. 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:47.280 Yeah, I'm not interested in doing things that don't bring 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:52.600 me joy because I know that how precious this time is. 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:56.200 And I think that there's this a suite to use 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:59.039 your word liberation in that it doesn't mean I'm not 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:00.560 going to do things that I don't want to do 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:01.679 because I run a business. 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:05.200 But more often than not, I'm like, yeah, it's not 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:05.760 worth it. 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:09.280 No, And it's so unapologetic the no. 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:14.440 Yeah, it's like standing for your life, I think, and 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:17.000 and I think when you touch death, you come close 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:19.680 to it, and certainly you've had the opportunity to shepherd 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:23.160 a loved one through that chapter. It teaches you more 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:25.640 about what matters and how you want to spend your time. 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:42.320 When you got your cancer diagnosis, did they tell you like, okay, 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:44.560 this is because I mean, when I hear stage four, 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:47.400 that's very Isn't it only to stage five? 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:50.280 No, it's only just stage four, So I'm at the 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:51.280 final stage. 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:55.120 So do they they gave you that twenty years ago, 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:58.600 that diagnosis, So do they say like, oh, you only 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:03.120 have this many years and then have you far passed that? 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:06.440 Or yes, I have. 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:10.280 So I have a very rare, incurable disease and it 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:13.640 can be slow growing and it can be aggressive. And 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:17.600 so in the beginning, what was paramount for me was 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:21.040 to find the right doctor because the first doctor suggested 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:23.880 a triple organ transplant, right, and if I had done that, 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:26.880 I wouldn't be here right. So I for the last 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:28.960 twenty years have been more of you know, when I 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:31.320 found my what I call my second in command, it's 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:33.520 when I decided to become the CEO of my health 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:38.480 higher fire, build the team I'm in charge, and but 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:40.800 not just I'm in charge. Likely you'll do what I say, 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:43.240 because obviously these people know a lot more than me. 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:44.679 But I'm in charge. 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:47.840 Of making the core decisions and seeing if you're a fit. 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:51.480 And so it took a while to find that fit. 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:56.360 And when I did, he said sometimes this can be 0:08:56.640 --> 0:08:58.360 was I just said, slow, it can be aggressive. We're 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:00.439 gonna watch him. Wait, let cancer make the first smoove, 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:03.599 and you're gonna go off and watch and live. And 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:05.760 I was like, I don't know how to do that, dude, 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:10.000 but okay, but that was the inciting incident that put 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:12.520 me on this path. Wow. 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:14.720 And then are you are you married? You have kids? 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:17.360 I don't have kids, but I am married. 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:19.480 Yes, So how is that for your husband? Like, how 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:22.960 is how is he walking through with this knowing that 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:25.440 he doesn't know when he could lose you. 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:31.040 I actually think that I'll probably outlive him, and he agrees. 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:34.640 So it's not something that we talk about our stress about. 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:39.520 We met before we met while I was making my 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:41.480 film and writing my book. He was the editor on 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:44.040 my project and I was the director of the project. 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:46.240 So we've been doing this together a hell of a 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:48.320 long time and He's like, if there's one person that's 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:50.920 going to remain, it's her. She's like cockroaches and twinkies. 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:52.000 You can't get rid of her. 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:55.600 So I love your calm confidence when you say it. 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:57.920 You're like, I'm going to outlive him. So that's just it. 0:09:58.000 --> 0:09:58.800 Yeah, Yeah, it's. 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:00.760 More so about like, am I gonna of an impenthouse 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:02.000 at the ritz with cats? 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:04.760 Like? Is what are my final years going to look like? 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:07.480 Like's that's where I spoke to qut my energy. 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:11.240 For the person that does have a fear of death, 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:14.920 what would be your advice to them to overcome that? 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:18.360 I don't think it's overcomeable. If we're to be honest 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:23.520 with ourselves, because death is probably the thing that every 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:28.680 single one of us, we're in some ways frightened about 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:32.079 it or in very valid ways terrified of it, because 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:34.880 no matter what we believe to be true, we truly 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:37.600 don't know what happens after we die or you will 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:42.240 learn that then. And so I think more often than not, 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:47.360 I would say, first and foremost, if you find yourself catastrophizing, 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:49.840 to be able to come back to the moment and say, like, 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:52.680 this is a story that I'm telling you about this. 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:55.240 I'm not dying currently in this. 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:58.160 Moment, like you know, even if I am not if 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:01.240 I am dying, I am still here right now, right 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:05.160 And so that's one thing. But I think to understand 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:08.880 it a little bit more because because we're frightened of it, 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:14.840 oftentimes we are skillless and we have no tools when 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:17.679 it matters. So not just your own death, but the 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:21.320 death of a loved one, and then you know, not 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:23.920 knowing what it's actually going to happen, is your body 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:27.600 shuts down, or what hospice is, or you know what 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:31.120 your options are or what like thinking about your end 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:33.199 of life care, which can feel like no way, I'm 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:35.960 not going to go there. That's so morbid. But you know, 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:38.960 we spend a whole lot of energy preparing to bring 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:42.440 a child into the world, and there's a lot of 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:45.560 celebration and joy and fear and all of the stuff 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:50.800 that happens, right, But we put death under the carpet 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:54.040 or we shove it in a corner and we archive 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:59.520 our elders, And there's something very wrong with that, and 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:02.040 each and one of us will face it at some point, 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:04.360 So why not educate ourselves more about it so we 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:05.360 can have a good death. 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:08.280 I want to have a good death. 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:12.200 What do you want? We want a party? Do we 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:13.120 want speeches? 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:17.080 Do we want sound baths? I mean maybe all of that. 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:18.640 I love for you to just have a little retreat 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:21.520 for yourself and my honors. Use me as an excuse 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:23.760 to get a break. A girl. 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:24.680 We'll go at the same time. 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:27.160 We go, hold hands. Yeah, neither one of us are 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:30.320 living without each other. I do know that it's codependency 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:31.679 in its most beautiful form. 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:32.319 Chris Carr. 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:34.280 As you know, as I like that, you'll be like 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:37.319 Domblin Louise, like you know, hands together and off the 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:37.960 cliff you go. 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:40.520 Listen. We could bury each other quite literally with all 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:42.400 the ship we know about each other already, so we 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:44.920 might as well just go at the same time. 0:12:45.120 --> 0:13:00.240 True debt, True debt. What was the hardest chap for 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:01.280 you to write in your new book. 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:04.720 I'd say the most beautiful chapter I wrote was actually 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:09.000 about my dad's passing, and I was writing that book 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:11.520 and crying and you know, feeling all the feelings and 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:16.360 because there was a lot of truth there and beauty there. 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:19.120 But I'd say the hardest chapter for me to write 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:21.920 was a book about a chapter about rage. So this 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:25.480 chapter is called Becoming Unbecoming, and in the book, I 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:29.959 break out each chapter according to different emotions or experiences 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:32.000 that you might go through when she hits the fan. 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:35.839 And what I wasn't prepared for was the amount of 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:39.040 anger and rage that came up in me, not just 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:42.840 for his diagnosis and the idea of losing him, but 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:47.160 also trauma and unprocessed emotions from my own diagnosis twenty 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:51.280 years ago. And my father is my chosen father, so 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:54.520 I'm adopted. But also so what was coming up too 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:59.640 is trauma and anger towards my biological father, right, and 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:04.600 holy crap, the whirlwind. And so here I am writing 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:08.079 about this while I'm also not too far out from 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:14.400 experiencing this very big emotion. And what I found so 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:16.480 healing in the process of just writing the book, and 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:20.280 I hope people experience reading it, is when we begin 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:24.160 to become more emotionally literate and understand the anatomy of 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:27.280 our emotions. Then we get curious and say, Okay, this 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:29.800 is what it is, this is how it behaves, this 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:33.600 is normal, and usually there's something else attached to it 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:37.120 or underneath it. So rather than going into a shame 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:43.640 spiral because I had either irruptions or implosions. I could go, oh, well, 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.040 let me put on my little wellness detective hat and 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:48.880 see what's really going on here, which would help me 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:52.800 become more compassionate towards myself, maybe forgive myself for certain 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:56.880 things that I did that I wish I hadn't, and 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:03.080 ultimately build a healthier relationship with me. 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:06.440 They're so brilliant and such a little light. 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:10.880 Well, you can relate on the dad in the dad 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:13.560 sad too of it, you know, losing your father and 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:19.960 having anger from your own childhood and the passing. It's 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:22.200 like it's a it's it's a lot. It's a lot 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.680 to hold all different feelings. It's like the angry, the sad, 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:27.360 the betrayed, the. 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:32.360 It's also interesting too, I think the there's the morning 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:34.320 that you do in your own self, and then there's 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:37.320 a morning that you that I at least experienced, and 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:40.400 like the idea of what people may or may not 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:42.200 become or how they may or may not show up 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:46.920 in my life after my dad passed, so I had 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:52.800 anticipated maybe a different relationship with my mom, and I 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:55.880 also in not that any of us can predict, right 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:59.920 that's like grief is the sneaky grief is just me, 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:03.040 and so it comes out in different ways, and there's 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:04.920 an emotional intelligence level too. 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:05.400 Like I. 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:10.080 Went first into like my own therapy triage, I just 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:12.400 needed a minute. There was times where I took myself 0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:14.800 out of my own world because I did have the rage. 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:16.640 I was snappy with my kids, I was snappy with 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:18.160 my husband and I just looked at him and I said, 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:19.800 this has nothing to do with you. And I know that. 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:22.280 And so I was able to take a thirty six 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:25.000 hour mini trip with my very best friend from home, 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:28.240 who I knew was going to love me through even 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:31.400 if I was just a little head for thirty six hours, 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:36.120 you know. And I came back and those things don't fix, 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:41.680 but they're deposits in the healing. But there was there 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.520 is an interesting thing that I'm observing in the way 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:48.040 that my mom is processing grief and her mourning that 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:52.520 is also then an offshoot of my mourning, Like huh, well, 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:55.720 I kind of thought maybe she would be around more 0:16:55.760 --> 0:17:00.480 and more participatory in like my world. Or because my 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:03.840 dad was an addict, so he drank and drug addiction 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:09.480 my entire life and was very good at victimizing himself, 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:13.600 and so he and we then, you know, the cycle 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:15.440 of all of that is that we have to pretend 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:17.199 that he was a certain way. And my mom is 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:21.560 still very much pretending. And so when I interrupt the 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:25.359 pr campaign for him by stating something on social media, 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:28.119 being vulnerable whatever, and I'm never mean about him, he 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:30.760 can't defend himself. What good does that do? But I 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:33.119 am open to say, like Father's Day sucks, and it 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:35.040 sucked for a lot of us before our dads died, 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:38.720 you know, and I'd say it much more beautifully than that. 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:47.560 But the mourning, the loss of ideas, I think is 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:51.639 also another layer that goes with grief, and it's mourning 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:54.000 maybe the people that are still alive a little bit 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:57.200 in a way. Did you experience any of that around. 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:00.640 Oh, without question, because I think what happens is when 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:05.960 you go through loss, family structures and relationships change, and 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:10.680 sometimes what wasn't working really comes out right, and so 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:17.919 there's big tectonic shifts in the structure. And from my 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:21.640 own experience, it's just I can't change you. The only 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:24.200 time you can change someone is when they're in diapers. 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:27.080 It's a good thing to remember, I. 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:30.040 Really want to hug you that one hits. 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:36.920 So I can't fix somebody else. I can't change how 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:40.879 they're feeling. And I think when we talk about like 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:43.840 what I mentioned earlier about the chapter awkward times, awkward people, 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:48.960 we step in it so much with each other around 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:54.919 this messy stuff. Sometimes we center ourselves. Sometimes we interrupt, 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.119 we make it all about us. Sometimes we quickly change 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:01.439 the topic. All of these things that we do, I 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:06.120 believe in the goodness of people. We do them unintentionally, right, 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:09.120 but we do them because we don't know what to do. 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:13.960 And so it's one of those practices where it's like 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:18.119 keep your side of the street clean and say, you know, 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:21.200 here's the work that I'm doing on my own healing. 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:25.119 And first and foremost, like there's a story that I 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:27.199 write about in the book that I've been talking a 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:31.000 lot about in podcasts, which is because it was emotion 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:33.879 I didn't want to experience, and because I kept pushing 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:36.639 it down. There was one moment where it was like 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:39.199 at the tipping point and I was in CBS and 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:40.760 my mom had asked me to pick up more and 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:44.119 sure we didn't know how much longer my father had 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:47.199 and unconsciously, the thought came to mind, like should I 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:50.440 get a six pack or should I get a case? Well, 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:53.800 how long does he have to live? And all of 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:56.560 the flood of emotion that I had been keeping at 0:19:56.560 --> 0:19:58.960 base just came to the surface, and I was like 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:03.399 and run out of CBS and I made it to 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:07.480 my car, and then the deluge just came out. But 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:11.560 after that experience, there was like a calm in the storm. 0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:14.080 It was almost like a dose of medicine. It's like 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:16.919 I was high, and I thought to myself, this feels 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:19.960 so much better. And if this feels better, why am 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:24.160 I avoiding it? And what else am I avoiding? Right? 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:24.720 And so. 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:29.360 Doing that work of like, hey, this is my side 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:31.760 of the street. This is the grief that I'm experiencing. 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:36.679 And yes, there it has tentacles. But everybody's journey, I think, 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:40.359 through it, not over it, but through it is unique 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:41.440 to their own hearts. 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:45.240 The side of the street things interesting because I remember 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:50.080 doing that with the past, and sometimes other people can 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:51.680 spill all their stuff on the other side of the 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:54.080 street too, So now you're only cleaning, You're cleaning up 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:57.600 lots of stuff on the side of the street. 0:20:57.840 --> 0:20:59.920 But I keep getting invited over on the other side 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:03.040 the street. I think that's where I'm like, oh no, no, 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:05.879 I'm good over here. Yeah, yeah, thank you. It is 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:09.600 interesting though that you say people will You said something 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:12.560 that really super reminded me. I'm always careful to say 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:16.800 too much on here because, like, my mom is a 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:19.639 healthy person out in the world, so it's not a 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:22.800 bad thing, but I do there's so much attention back 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:25.840 to her. Like even my daughter has recognized a couple 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:28.080 of things where she's like, wow, it's just really about her, 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:31.280 and it's like she's just in this like freedom phase. 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:33.320 I call it spring break if I'm honest, which is 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:36.240 probably a little ugly, but I mean, she's on spring break. 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:37.320 You know. 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:39.560 She also took care of him for a long time. 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:41.960 They were married for forty years, and she'd been with 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:45.119 him since he was she was twenty three, So a 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:48.440 lot of times I witnessed twenty three year old like behavior. 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:52.560 If I'm just observing, I'm not judging, just truly just observing. 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:58.479 I'm like, huh, that's interesting, but that, like it is 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:01.879 their own process and so sometimes really hard to watch. 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:05.399 So did you did you feel like this if this 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:08.119