Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio podcast.
Speaker 2: This week's Thursday Therapy, We've got Chris Carr. She's a
Speaker 2: multiple New York Times best selling author, wellness activist, and
Speaker 2: cancer thriver. She's been called a force of nature by
Speaker 2: Oh the Oprah Magazine and was named a new role
Speaker 2: Model by The New York Times. Chris is also a
Speaker 2: member of Oprah's Super Soul one hundred. She's got a
Speaker 2: new book that's called I'm Not a Morning Person, Braving Loss,
Speaker 2: Grief and the big messy emotions that happen when life
Speaker 2: falls apart. Thank you so much for coming on to
Speaker 2: wind Down.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. It's good to be here.
Speaker 2: I have Kristen with me because she's kind of been
Speaker 2: She's had a rough year with some loss, and so
Speaker 2: when I was reading the breakdown, and I was like,
Speaker 2: I'm not a morning person and mourning as in like mourning,
Speaker 2: braving loss, grief and the big messy emotions that happen
Speaker 2: when life falls apart, and I just was like, you know,
Speaker 2: you've you've had twenty years of living and thriving with
Speaker 2: incurable stage is for cancer, right, that's correct, and and
Speaker 2: that you still like, have stage four cancer.
Speaker 3: I do.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 2: I mean you're so calm, I know. I was just like, well,
Speaker 2: I have a book, yeah.
Speaker 4: So does the morning. Okay, so just tell me this
Speaker 4: is the morning and the grief go into every part
Speaker 4: of your life? Like, is the morning and the grief
Speaker 4: in your health? Do you grieve optimal health or the
Speaker 4: idea of what your body could do or couldn't do?
Speaker 1: I think, you know, just to take a step back.
Speaker 1: So I've been living with stage four cancer for twenty
Speaker 1: years now, and when I was newly diagnosed, I was terrified,
Speaker 1: like anybody would be who goes through what I write
Speaker 1: about in the book, a rupture. It's that moment where
Speaker 1: life change. Someone dies, you have a miscarriage, you lose
Speaker 1: your job, you know, you go through a divorce. And
Speaker 1: I think in those moments, we think that if I
Speaker 1: feel any of my feelings, I won't survive them. They'll
Speaker 1: somehow take me down. And what I have learned is
Speaker 1: the way out is through. It's like that cliche saying,
Speaker 1: but it's true.
Speaker 3: And so.
Speaker 1: This is my seventh book, and it's called I'm Not
Speaker 1: a Morning Person. It's about braving brief, grief and loss
Speaker 1: and the big, messy emotions that happen when life falls apart,
Speaker 1: those ruptures that will happen to each and every one
Speaker 1: of us, big and small, And so the point is
Speaker 1: to learn how to navigate these storms, to become a
Speaker 1: little bit more emotionally literate, so that we understand what
Speaker 1: I call our emotional anatomy, and by doing so, we
Speaker 1: start to realize that these feelings that we have are information,
Speaker 1: just like grief is information. But for me, it was
Speaker 1: the one emotion I didn't want to touch, and so
Speaker 1: I realized that that was where I want I needed
Speaker 1: to spend a lot of time. My therapist says something
Speaker 1: that's so great that I talked about in the book,
Speaker 1: which is when the grief train pulls into the station,
Speaker 1: it brings all the cars. It's like the old stuff,
Speaker 1: stuff you think you're over, and then the emotions that
Speaker 1: come with it, like why am I raging? Why am
Speaker 1: I filled with shame? Like this is so screwed up?
Speaker 1: Why is all this happening? And I think it's just
Speaker 1: an opportunity to bring those parts of ourselves back home
Speaker 1: and be curious about them, to see what's going on
Speaker 1: under the surface. Grief is a master healer. That's what
Speaker 1: I've learned. So the thing that I didn't want to
Speaker 1: experience in touch. When I finally allowed it in, it
Speaker 1: was like a big relief, and then there was a domino,
Speaker 1: a domino effective change that started to happen just from
Speaker 1: that allowing.
Speaker 4: This is probably one of the most validating two minutes
Speaker 4: I've ever had, because as I feel so different on
Speaker 4: the other side, and not that there is another side,
Speaker 4: but just in the journey of grief and loss, and
Speaker 4: it's really hard to participate in like what the world
Speaker 4: was before. I feel like the world just kind of
Speaker 4: kept trudging on and I was stuck in like drying
Speaker 4: cement for a while, and in a way I was
Speaker 4: envious of the world moving on, But in so many
Speaker 4: ways I also knew that I was like deeply inside
Speaker 4: of each minute that I was living and sorting things
Speaker 4: out and kind of like what will be left will
Speaker 4: be left, not because I didn't I'm ignoring it just
Speaker 4: because I don't need it anymore, but then trying to
Speaker 4: get yourself into a world, trying to like emerge back
Speaker 4: into this world that it's almost I described it the
Speaker 4: other day as like I've been like cocooned up for
Speaker 4: so long, and then I take I open my front
Speaker 4: door and I put a big toe out, and I
Speaker 4: just feel like everything is noisy and busy and fast,
Speaker 4: and I'm going, that's just not how I operate anymore.
Speaker 4: And I kind of and apologetically don't operate that way anymore.
Speaker 4: But it's very strange to try to describe that to
Speaker 4: people that haven't experienced that. How like living slow is
Speaker 4: just like that's my default. Now, That's just where I'm at,
Speaker 4: and I'm okay with it. But it's so opposite of
Speaker 4: what people are used to seeing of me and how
Speaker 4: much availability they're used to having of me. So do
Speaker 4: you feel like you experience the like sweet slowness as
Speaker 4: well coming out of I guess we're never really out
Speaker 4: of it, but just in the healing of grief.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's a beautiful way to describe it.
Speaker 1: And I love that you said not out of it,
Speaker 1: because I think one of the things that we get
Speaker 1: wrong because we come from and we are domesticated in
Speaker 1: a grief phobic, messy emotions of our society, right, so
Speaker 1: when we come when we live in that place, then
Speaker 1: we're taught to push it down and it's physics.
Speaker 2: Or get over it from the abuser. Yeah, get over
Speaker 2: move on. It's been forever totally to.
Speaker 1: Say that when you push something down, it's going to
Speaker 1: come out another way. And to your point about getting
Speaker 1: over it, right, there isn't an over, there's through. So
Speaker 1: we oftentimes there's a chapter that I write about called
Speaker 1: awkward times awkward people, and it's the that we hear
Speaker 1: or that we say and it and guess what, we're
Speaker 1: all going to step in it? So why not like
Speaker 1: understand the train a little bit more? But I think
Speaker 1: to your point, I actually have found through this practice
Speaker 1: or through this experience that I say no to a
Speaker 1: lot more than I used to say no.
Speaker 3: To, so much more interested.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not interested in doing things that don't bring
Speaker 1: me joy because I know that how precious this time is.
Speaker 1: And I think that there's this a suite to use
Speaker 1: your word liberation in that it doesn't mean I'm not
Speaker 1: going to do things that I don't want to do
Speaker 1: because I run a business.
Speaker 3: But more often than not, I'm like, yeah, it's not
Speaker 3: worth it.
Speaker 4: No, And it's so unapologetic the no.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like standing for your life, I think, and
Speaker 1: and I think when you touch death, you come close
Speaker 1: to it, and certainly you've had the opportunity to shepherd
Speaker 1: a loved one through that chapter. It teaches you more
Speaker 1: about what matters and how you want to spend your time.
Speaker 2: When you got your cancer diagnosis, did they tell you like, okay,
Speaker 2: this is because I mean, when I hear stage four,
Speaker 2: that's very Isn't it only to stage five?
Speaker 1: No, it's only just stage four, So I'm at the
Speaker 1: final stage.
Speaker 2: So do they they gave you that twenty years ago,
Speaker 2: that diagnosis, So do they say like, oh, you only
Speaker 2: have this many years and then have you far passed that?
Speaker 3: Or yes, I have.
Speaker 1: So I have a very rare, incurable disease and it
Speaker 1: can be slow growing and it can be aggressive. And
Speaker 1: so in the beginning, what was paramount for me was
Speaker 1: to find the right doctor because the first doctor suggested
Speaker 1: a triple organ transplant, right, and if I had done that,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be here right. So I for the last
Speaker 1: twenty years have been more of you know, when I
Speaker 1: found my what I call my second in command, it's
Speaker 1: when I decided to become the CEO of my health
Speaker 1: higher fire, build the team I'm in charge, and but
Speaker 1: not just I'm in charge. Likely you'll do what I say,
Speaker 1: because obviously these people know a lot more than me.
Speaker 3: But I'm in charge.
Speaker 1: Of making the core decisions and seeing if you're a fit.
Speaker 1: And so it took a while to find that fit.
Speaker 1: And when I did, he said sometimes this can be
Speaker 1: was I just said, slow, it can be aggressive. We're
Speaker 1: gonna watch him. Wait, let cancer make the first smoove,
Speaker 1: and you're gonna go off and watch and live. And
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know how to do that, dude,
Speaker 1: but okay, but that was the inciting incident that put
Speaker 1: me on this path. Wow.
Speaker 2: And then are you are you married? You have kids?
Speaker 1: I don't have kids, but I am married.
Speaker 2: Yes, So how is that for your husband? Like, how
Speaker 2: is how is he walking through with this knowing that
Speaker 2: he doesn't know when he could lose you.
Speaker 1: I actually think that I'll probably outlive him, and he agrees.
Speaker 1: So it's not something that we talk about our stress about.
Speaker 1: We met before we met while I was making my
Speaker 1: film and writing my book. He was the editor on
Speaker 1: my project and I was the director of the project.
Speaker 1: So we've been doing this together a hell of a
Speaker 1: long time and He's like, if there's one person that's
Speaker 1: going to remain, it's her. She's like cockroaches and twinkies.
Speaker 1: You can't get rid of her.
Speaker 4: So I love your calm confidence when you say it.
Speaker 4: You're like, I'm going to outlive him. So that's just it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, it's.
Speaker 1: More so about like, am I gonna of an impenthouse
Speaker 1: at the ritz with cats?
Speaker 3: Like? Is what are my final years going to look like?
Speaker 3: Like's that's where I spoke to qut my energy.
Speaker 2: For the person that does have a fear of death,
Speaker 2: what would be your advice to them to overcome that?
Speaker 1: I don't think it's overcomeable. If we're to be honest
Speaker 1: with ourselves, because death is probably the thing that every
Speaker 1: single one of us, we're in some ways frightened about
Speaker 1: it or in very valid ways terrified of it, because
Speaker 1: no matter what we believe to be true, we truly
Speaker 1: don't know what happens after we die or you will
Speaker 1: learn that then. And so I think more often than not,
Speaker 1: I would say, first and foremost, if you find yourself catastrophizing,
Speaker 1: to be able to come back to the moment and say, like,
Speaker 1: this is a story that I'm telling you about this.
Speaker 3: I'm not dying currently in this.
Speaker 1: Moment, like you know, even if I am not if
Speaker 1: I am dying, I am still here right now, right
Speaker 1: And so that's one thing. But I think to understand
Speaker 1: it a little bit more because because we're frightened of it,
Speaker 1: oftentimes we are skillless and we have no tools when
Speaker 1: it matters. So not just your own death, but the
Speaker 1: death of a loved one, and then you know, not
Speaker 1: knowing what it's actually going to happen, is your body
Speaker 1: shuts down, or what hospice is, or you know what
Speaker 1: your options are or what like thinking about your end
Speaker 1: of life care, which can feel like no way, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to go there. That's so morbid. But you know,
Speaker 1: we spend a whole lot of energy preparing to bring
Speaker 1: a child into the world, and there's a lot of
Speaker 1: celebration and joy and fear and all of the stuff
Speaker 1: that happens, right, But we put death under the carpet
Speaker 1: or we shove it in a corner and we archive
Speaker 1: our elders, And there's something very wrong with that, and
Speaker 1: each and one of us will face it at some point,
Speaker 1: So why not educate ourselves more about it so we
Speaker 1: can have a good death.
Speaker 4: I want to have a good death.
Speaker 2: What do you want? We want a party? Do we
Speaker 2: want speeches?
Speaker 4: Do we want sound baths? I mean maybe all of that.
Speaker 4: I love for you to just have a little retreat
Speaker 4: for yourself and my honors. Use me as an excuse
Speaker 4: to get a break. A girl.
Speaker 2: We'll go at the same time.
Speaker 4: We go, hold hands. Yeah, neither one of us are
Speaker 4: living without each other. I do know that it's codependency
Speaker 4: in its most beautiful form.
Speaker 3: Chris Carr.
Speaker 1: As you know, as I like that, you'll be like
Speaker 1: Domblin Louise, like you know, hands together and off the
Speaker 1: cliff you go.
Speaker 4: Listen. We could bury each other quite literally with all
Speaker 4: the ship we know about each other already, so we
Speaker 4: might as well just go at the same time.
Speaker 2: True debt, True debt. What was the hardest chap for
Speaker 2: you to write in your new book.
Speaker 1: I'd say the most beautiful chapter I wrote was actually
Speaker 1: about my dad's passing, and I was writing that book
Speaker 1: and crying and you know, feeling all the feelings and
Speaker 1: because there was a lot of truth there and beauty there.
Speaker 1: But I'd say the hardest chapter for me to write
Speaker 1: was a book about a chapter about rage. So this
Speaker 1: chapter is called Becoming Unbecoming, and in the book, I
Speaker 1: break out each chapter according to different emotions or experiences
Speaker 1: that you might go through when she hits the fan.
Speaker 1: And what I wasn't prepared for was the amount of
Speaker 1: anger and rage that came up in me, not just
Speaker 1: for his diagnosis and the idea of losing him, but
Speaker 1: also trauma and unprocessed emotions from my own diagnosis twenty
Speaker 1: years ago. And my father is my chosen father, so
Speaker 1: I'm adopted. But also so what was coming up too
Speaker 1: is trauma and anger towards my biological father, right, and
Speaker 1: holy crap, the whirlwind. And so here I am writing
Speaker 1: about this while I'm also not too far out from
Speaker 1: experiencing this very big emotion. And what I found so
Speaker 1: healing in the process of just writing the book, and
Speaker 1: I hope people experience reading it, is when we begin
Speaker 1: to become more emotionally literate and understand the anatomy of
Speaker 1: our emotions. Then we get curious and say, Okay, this
Speaker 1: is what it is, this is how it behaves, this
Speaker 1: is normal, and usually there's something else attached to it
Speaker 1: or underneath it. So rather than going into a shame
Speaker 1: spiral because I had either irruptions or implosions. I could go, oh, well,
Speaker 1: let me put on my little wellness detective hat and
Speaker 1: see what's really going on here, which would help me
Speaker 1: become more compassionate towards myself, maybe forgive myself for certain
Speaker 1: things that I did that I wish I hadn't, and
Speaker 1: ultimately build a healthier relationship with me.
Speaker 4: They're so brilliant and such a little light.
Speaker 2: Well, you can relate on the dad in the dad
Speaker 2: sad too of it, you know, losing your father and
Speaker 2: having anger from your own childhood and the passing. It's
Speaker 2: like it's a it's it's a lot. It's a lot
Speaker 2: to hold all different feelings. It's like the angry, the sad,
Speaker 2: the betrayed, the.
Speaker 4: It's also interesting too, I think the there's the morning
Speaker 4: that you do in your own self, and then there's
Speaker 4: a morning that you that I at least experienced, and
Speaker 4: like the idea of what people may or may not
Speaker 4: become or how they may or may not show up
Speaker 4: in my life after my dad passed, so I had
Speaker 4: anticipated maybe a different relationship with my mom, and I
Speaker 4: also in not that any of us can predict, right
Speaker 4: that's like grief is the sneaky grief is just me,
Speaker 4: and so it comes out in different ways, and there's
Speaker 4: an emotional intelligence level too.
Speaker 3: Like I.
Speaker 4: Went first into like my own therapy triage, I just
Speaker 4: needed a minute. There was times where I took myself
Speaker 4: out of my own world because I did have the rage.
Speaker 4: I was snappy with my kids, I was snappy with
Speaker 4: my husband and I just looked at him and I said,
Speaker 4: this has nothing to do with you. And I know that.
Speaker 4: And so I was able to take a thirty six
Speaker 4: hour mini trip with my very best friend from home,
Speaker 4: who I knew was going to love me through even
Speaker 4: if I was just a little head for thirty six hours,
Speaker 4: you know. And I came back and those things don't fix,
Speaker 4: but they're deposits in the healing. But there was there
Speaker 4: is an interesting thing that I'm observing in the way
Speaker 4: that my mom is processing grief and her mourning that
Speaker 4: is also then an offshoot of my mourning, Like huh, well,
Speaker 4: I kind of thought maybe she would be around more
Speaker 4: and more participatory in like my world. Or because my
Speaker 4: dad was an addict, so he drank and drug addiction
Speaker 4: my entire life and was very good at victimizing himself,
Speaker 4: and so he and we then, you know, the cycle
Speaker 4: of all of that is that we have to pretend
Speaker 4: that he was a certain way. And my mom is
Speaker 4: still very much pretending. And so when I interrupt the
Speaker 4: pr campaign for him by stating something on social media,
Speaker 4: being vulnerable whatever, and I'm never mean about him, he
Speaker 4: can't defend himself. What good does that do? But I
Speaker 4: am open to say, like Father's Day sucks, and it
Speaker 4: sucked for a lot of us before our dads died,
Speaker 4: you know, and I'd say it much more beautifully than that.
Speaker 4: But the mourning, the loss of ideas, I think is
Speaker 4: also another layer that goes with grief, and it's mourning
Speaker 4: maybe the people that are still alive a little bit
Speaker 4: in a way. Did you experience any of that around.
Speaker 1: Oh, without question, because I think what happens is when
Speaker 1: you go through loss, family structures and relationships change, and
Speaker 1: sometimes what wasn't working really comes out right, and so
Speaker 1: there's big tectonic shifts in the structure. And from my
Speaker 1: own experience, it's just I can't change you. The only
Speaker 1: time you can change someone is when they're in diapers.
Speaker 1: It's a good thing to remember, I.
Speaker 4: Really want to hug you that one hits.
Speaker 1: So I can't fix somebody else. I can't change how
Speaker 1: they're feeling. And I think when we talk about like
Speaker 1: what I mentioned earlier about the chapter awkward times, awkward people,
Speaker 1: we step in it so much with each other around
Speaker 1: this messy stuff. Sometimes we center ourselves. Sometimes we interrupt,
Speaker 1: we make it all about us. Sometimes we quickly change
Speaker 1: the topic. All of these things that we do, I
Speaker 1: believe in the goodness of people. We do them unintentionally, right,
Speaker 1: but we do them because we don't know what to do.
Speaker 1: And so it's one of those practices where it's like
Speaker 1: keep your side of the street clean and say, you know,
Speaker 1: here's the work that I'm doing on my own healing.
Speaker 1: And first and foremost, like there's a story that I
Speaker 1: write about in the book that I've been talking a
Speaker 1: lot about in podcasts, which is because it was emotion
Speaker 1: I didn't want to experience, and because I kept pushing
Speaker 1: it down. There was one moment where it was like
Speaker 1: at the tipping point and I was in CBS and
Speaker 1: my mom had asked me to pick up more and
Speaker 1: sure we didn't know how much longer my father had
Speaker 1: and unconsciously, the thought came to mind, like should I
Speaker 1: get a six pack or should I get a case? Well,
Speaker 1: how long does he have to live? And all of
Speaker 1: the flood of emotion that I had been keeping at
Speaker 1: base just came to the surface, and I was like
Speaker 1: and run out of CBS and I made it to
Speaker 1: my car, and then the deluge just came out. But
Speaker 1: after that experience, there was like a calm in the storm.
Speaker 1: It was almost like a dose of medicine. It's like
Speaker 1: I was high, and I thought to myself, this feels
Speaker 1: so much better. And if this feels better, why am
Speaker 1: I avoiding it? And what else am I avoiding? Right?
Speaker 3: And so.
Speaker 1: Doing that work of like, hey, this is my side
Speaker 1: of the street. This is the grief that I'm experiencing.
Speaker 1: And yes, there it has tentacles. But everybody's journey, I think,
Speaker 1: through it, not over it, but through it is unique
Speaker 1: to their own hearts.
Speaker 2: The side of the street things interesting because I remember
Speaker 2: doing that with the past, and sometimes other people can
Speaker 2: spill all their stuff on the other side of the
Speaker 2: street too, So now you're only cleaning, You're cleaning up
Speaker 2: lots of stuff on the side of the street.
Speaker 4: But I keep getting invited over on the other side
Speaker 4: the street. I think that's where I'm like, oh no, no,
Speaker 4: I'm good over here. Yeah, yeah, thank you. It is
Speaker 4: interesting though that you say people will You said something
Speaker 4: that really super reminded me. I'm always careful to say
Speaker 4: too much on here because, like, my mom is a
Speaker 4: healthy person out in the world, so it's not a
Speaker 4: bad thing, but I do there's so much attention back
Speaker 4: to her. Like even my daughter has recognized a couple
Speaker 4: of things where she's like, wow, it's just really about her,
Speaker 4: and it's like she's just in this like freedom phase.
Speaker 4: I call it spring break if I'm honest, which is
Speaker 4: probably a little ugly, but I mean, she's on spring break.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 4: She also took care of him for a long time.
Speaker 4: They were married for forty years, and she'd been with
Speaker 4: him since he was she was twenty three, So a
Speaker 4: lot of times I witnessed twenty three year old like behavior.
Speaker 4: If I'm just observing, I'm not judging, just truly just observing.
Speaker 4: I'm like, huh, that's interesting, but that, like it is
Speaker 4: their own process and so sometimes really hard to watch.
Speaker 4: So did you did you feel like this if this
Speaker 4: is too personal that's fine, you can just give me
Speaker 4: the pass or tell me no, because I know you're
Speaker 4: good at it. But how did your mom's relationship and
Speaker 4: your relationship then change after the passing of your dad.
Speaker 4: Did you feel like the big shifts or did it
Speaker 4: feel like you leaned into each other more? Was there
Speaker 4: a time of space? Does it go with the ebbs
Speaker 4: and flows? Does it like how does that work for
Speaker 4: you too?
Speaker 1: We're a lot closer now, but we're both committed to
Speaker 1: the work and it's messy. So there are times when
Speaker 1: I'm like, you're stepping on me, You're making this all
Speaker 1: about you. I don't feel heard. Yeah, that's the truth
Speaker 1: of my experience. And does she hear you, Yes, one
Speaker 1: hundred percent. Because we have decided that we're going to
Speaker 1: do the hard stuff because our relationship is our core intention, right,
Speaker 1: And so that means when you're like, well, my intention
Speaker 1: is to have a healthy relationship with you, that means
Speaker 1: I'm going to have a lot of times with you too,
Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about him.
Speaker 3: That's the piece.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so it's not it's not like it hasn't
Speaker 1: been bumpy.
Speaker 2: It was.
Speaker 1: It's been very bumpy at times. But it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: what's my what's my goal here? It's to have a
Speaker 1: deeper relationship with this person. And I think what you're
Speaker 1: talking about is centering yourself, and so I see that
Speaker 1: a lot in grief, because it oftentimes can come from anxiety.
Speaker 1: I don't know what to say, so I'll just say
Speaker 1: a lot of things and make it about me and
Speaker 1: a lo Oftentimes, you know, just because I've written this
Speaker 1: book and I've done a deep exploration of this topic
Speaker 1: for the last four and a half five years personally
Speaker 1: but also as an author, people will.
Speaker 3: Say, well, well, if you.
Speaker 1: You know all these things not to say, and we
Speaker 1: could talk about some of those, but what do you
Speaker 1: say to somebody who's going through grieving process? And I'm like,
Speaker 1: there's actually nothing you can say. You can't say, so
Speaker 1: take the pressure off. You can't make it better, but
Speaker 1: what you can do, and it's you're not your job
Speaker 1: to fix it, By the way, it's not your job
Speaker 1: to fix it. If you want to be in relationship
Speaker 1: with this person, then my advice is just to listen.
Speaker 1: Just just show up and be present and be like,
Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say, but I love you.
Speaker 1: I brought tissues or brought lasagna.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's I mean everything, because it's like,
Speaker 2: even like going through you know, divorce or whatever, people
Speaker 2: will be like, oh, well, at least it's like no,
Speaker 2: there's no don't give me an at least, don't give
Speaker 2: me a butt, don't give me a well you get
Speaker 2: your kids. Oh my gosh, well, how nice of a break.
Speaker 2: I'm like that none of that helps to hear any
Speaker 2: of that. That's I don't want to break from my kids,
Speaker 2: Like I like, sure, yeah I do, but like I
Speaker 2: don't want them out of my house, you know, like
Speaker 2: every other weekend. Or it's like I think people their
Speaker 2: own uncomfortability lends them to saying like, well, now you
Speaker 2: can do whatever you want because you've got a death
Speaker 2: sentence and you can now go do what. It's like, no,
Speaker 2: like none of these nothing you're saying is actually.
Speaker 4: It's like we default to this like bright side mentality,
Speaker 4: and sometimes it's okay to just say, like I I
Speaker 4: work in an infant stillborn task force in Nashville, so
Speaker 4: we'll go and so I'm in the thin places a lot.
Speaker 4: And that's been interesting to navigate to after the loss
Speaker 4: of my dad, and all these others at the same time.
Speaker 4: But I think, like the most validating thing to say
Speaker 4: to anybody, whether it's divorce, miscarriage, death, any of this
Speaker 4: is just like I'm sorry, and it's not fair because
Speaker 4: that's the reality. I mean, it's like we toxically bright
Speaker 4: side everything, Like you don't want to be without your
Speaker 4: kids for a week. You actually didn't even want to
Speaker 4: get divorce. No, I mean, it's just crazy. It's like
Speaker 4: we all it is that, Like, I think, what the
Speaker 4: most beautiful thing? And I cannot wait to read your
Speaker 4: book truly, Like, and it's gonna sound creepy, but I'm
Speaker 4: taking you in the bathtub with me. I guess that's
Speaker 4: when it's the most silent for me. But I think
Speaker 4: the most beautiful thing is just this this idea that
Speaker 4: we just need to like sit with it because we're
Speaker 4: so we're such a go society. We're so fast paced
Speaker 4: that we even just fast paced ourselves through emotion. It's like, oh,
Speaker 4: no time for that. Got to keep on moving because
Speaker 4: I mean, but eventually it does, like it builds up,
Speaker 4: it goes somewhere, whether it's in your body, whether it's
Speaker 4: out on a spouse, you know, I mean, there's we
Speaker 4: need the freedom.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and let's agree with you more.
Speaker 4: I know that's why you're going in the bath with me.
Speaker 2: Chris car Well, everyone go get Chris Carr's book. I'm
Speaker 2: not a morning person braving loss, grief and the big
Speaker 2: messy emotions that happen when life falls apart. Thank you
Speaker 2: for sharing your story. Thank you for being honest and
Speaker 2: vulnerable and helping so many people. And you have an,
Speaker 2: you know, an incredible story, and obviously you're helping people that,
Speaker 2: like you said, they go through all types of loss.
Speaker 2: So thank you for doing what you do in writing
Speaker 2: that book.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 4: Thanks girl, What a good, wonderful spirit.