1 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio podcast. 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 2: This week's Thursday Therapy, We've got Chris Carr. She's a 3 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 2: multiple New York Times best selling author, wellness activist, and 4 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 2: cancer thriver. She's been called a force of nature by 5 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 2: Oh the Oprah Magazine and was named a new role 6 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 2: Model by The New York Times. Chris is also a 7 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,479 Speaker 2: member of Oprah's Super Soul one hundred. She's got a 8 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 2: new book that's called I'm Not a Morning Person, Braving Loss, 9 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 2: Grief and the big messy emotions that happen when life 10 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 2: falls apart. Thank you so much for coming on to 11 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 2: wind Down. 12 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. It's good to be here. 13 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 2: I have Kristen with me because she's kind of been 14 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 2: She's had a rough year with some loss, and so 15 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 2: when I was reading the breakdown, and I was like, 16 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 2: I'm not a morning person and mourning as in like mourning, 17 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 2: braving loss, grief and the big messy emotions that happen 18 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 2: when life falls apart, and I just was like, you know, 19 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,279 Speaker 2: you've you've had twenty years of living and thriving with 20 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 2: incurable stage is for cancer, right, that's correct, and and 21 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 2: that you still like, have stage four cancer. 22 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 3: I do. 23 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 4: Wow. 24 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 2: I mean you're so calm, I know. I was just like, well, 25 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 2: I have a book, yeah. 26 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 4: So does the morning. Okay, so just tell me this 27 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 4: is the morning and the grief go into every part 28 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 4: of your life? Like, is the morning and the grief 29 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 4: in your health? Do you grieve optimal health or the 30 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 4: idea of what your body could do or couldn't do? 31 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: I think, you know, just to take a step back. 32 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: So I've been living with stage four cancer for twenty 33 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: years now, and when I was newly diagnosed, I was terrified, 34 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: like anybody would be who goes through what I write 35 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: about in the book, a rupture. It's that moment where 36 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: life change. Someone dies, you have a miscarriage, you lose 37 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: your job, you know, you go through a divorce. And 38 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: I think in those moments, we think that if I 39 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: feel any of my feelings, I won't survive them. They'll 40 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: somehow take me down. And what I have learned is 41 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: the way out is through. It's like that cliche saying, 42 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: but it's true. 43 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 3: And so. 44 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: This is my seventh book, and it's called I'm Not 45 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: a Morning Person. It's about braving brief, grief and loss 46 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: and the big, messy emotions that happen when life falls apart, 47 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: those ruptures that will happen to each and every one 48 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: of us, big and small, And so the point is 49 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: to learn how to navigate these storms, to become a 50 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: little bit more emotionally literate, so that we understand what 51 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: I call our emotional anatomy, and by doing so, we 52 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: start to realize that these feelings that we have are information, 53 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: just like grief is information. But for me, it was 54 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: the one emotion I didn't want to touch, and so 55 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: I realized that that was where I want I needed 56 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: to spend a lot of time. My therapist says something 57 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: that's so great that I talked about in the book, 58 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: which is when the grief train pulls into the station, 59 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: it brings all the cars. It's like the old stuff, 60 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: stuff you think you're over, and then the emotions that 61 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: come with it, like why am I raging? Why am 62 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: I filled with shame? Like this is so screwed up? 63 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: Why is all this happening? And I think it's just 64 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: an opportunity to bring those parts of ourselves back home 65 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: and be curious about them, to see what's going on 66 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: under the surface. Grief is a master healer. That's what 67 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: I've learned. So the thing that I didn't want to 68 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: experience in touch. When I finally allowed it in, it 69 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: was like a big relief, and then there was a domino, 70 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: a domino effective change that started to happen just from 71 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: that allowing. 72 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 4: This is probably one of the most validating two minutes 73 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 4: I've ever had, because as I feel so different on 74 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 4: the other side, and not that there is another side, 75 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 4: but just in the journey of grief and loss, and 76 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 4: it's really hard to participate in like what the world 77 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 4: was before. I feel like the world just kind of 78 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,799 Speaker 4: kept trudging on and I was stuck in like drying 79 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 4: cement for a while, and in a way I was 80 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 4: envious of the world moving on, But in so many 81 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 4: ways I also knew that I was like deeply inside 82 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 4: of each minute that I was living and sorting things 83 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 4: out and kind of like what will be left will 84 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 4: be left, not because I didn't I'm ignoring it just 85 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 4: because I don't need it anymore, but then trying to 86 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 4: get yourself into a world, trying to like emerge back 87 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 4: into this world that it's almost I described it the 88 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 4: other day as like I've been like cocooned up for 89 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 4: so long, and then I take I open my front 90 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 4: door and I put a big toe out, and I 91 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 4: just feel like everything is noisy and busy and fast, 92 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 4: and I'm going, that's just not how I operate anymore. 93 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 4: And I kind of and apologetically don't operate that way anymore. 94 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 4: But it's very strange to try to describe that to 95 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 4: people that haven't experienced that. How like living slow is 96 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 4: just like that's my default. Now, That's just where I'm at, 97 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 4: and I'm okay with it. But it's so opposite of 98 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 4: what people are used to seeing of me and how 99 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 4: much availability they're used to having of me. So do 100 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 4: you feel like you experience the like sweet slowness as 101 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 4: well coming out of I guess we're never really out 102 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 4: of it, but just in the healing of grief. 103 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's a beautiful way to describe it. 104 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 1: And I love that you said not out of it, 105 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: because I think one of the things that we get 106 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 1: wrong because we come from and we are domesticated in 107 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: a grief phobic, messy emotions of our society, right, so 108 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: when we come when we live in that place, then 109 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 1: we're taught to push it down and it's physics. 110 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 2: Or get over it from the abuser. Yeah, get over 111 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,239 Speaker 2: move on. It's been forever totally to. 112 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: Say that when you push something down, it's going to 113 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: come out another way. And to your point about getting 114 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: over it, right, there isn't an over, there's through. So 115 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: we oftentimes there's a chapter that I write about called 116 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: awkward times awkward people, and it's the that we hear 117 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: or that we say and it and guess what, we're 118 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: all going to step in it? So why not like 119 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: understand the train a little bit more? But I think 120 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 1: to your point, I actually have found through this practice 121 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: or through this experience that I say no to a 122 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 1: lot more than I used to say no. 123 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 3: To, so much more interested. 124 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not interested in doing things that don't bring 125 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: me joy because I know that how precious this time is. 126 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: And I think that there's this a suite to use 127 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,039 Speaker 1: your word liberation in that it doesn't mean I'm not 128 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: going to do things that I don't want to do 129 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:01,679 Speaker 1: because I run a business. 130 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 3: But more often than not, I'm like, yeah, it's not 131 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 3: worth it. 132 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 4: No, And it's so unapologetic the no. 133 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like standing for your life, I think, and 134 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: and I think when you touch death, you come close 135 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: to it, and certainly you've had the opportunity to shepherd 136 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: a loved one through that chapter. It teaches you more 137 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: about what matters and how you want to spend your time. 138 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 2: When you got your cancer diagnosis, did they tell you like, okay, 139 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 2: this is because I mean, when I hear stage four, 140 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 2: that's very Isn't it only to stage five? 141 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: No, it's only just stage four, So I'm at the 142 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: final stage. 143 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 2: So do they they gave you that twenty years ago, 144 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 2: that diagnosis, So do they say like, oh, you only 145 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 2: have this many years and then have you far passed that? 146 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 3: Or yes, I have. 147 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: So I have a very rare, incurable disease and it 148 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: can be slow growing and it can be aggressive. And 149 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: so in the beginning, what was paramount for me was 150 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: to find the right doctor because the first doctor suggested 151 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: a triple organ transplant, right, and if I had done that, 152 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be here right. So I for the last 153 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: twenty years have been more of you know, when I 154 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: found my what I call my second in command, it's 155 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: when I decided to become the CEO of my health 156 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: higher fire, build the team I'm in charge, and but 157 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: not just I'm in charge. Likely you'll do what I say, 158 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: because obviously these people know a lot more than me. 159 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 3: But I'm in charge. 160 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: Of making the core decisions and seeing if you're a fit. 161 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: And so it took a while to find that fit. 162 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: And when I did, he said sometimes this can be 163 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: was I just said, slow, it can be aggressive. We're 164 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 1: gonna watch him. Wait, let cancer make the first smoove, 165 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,599 Speaker 1: and you're gonna go off and watch and live. And 166 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know how to do that, dude, 167 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: but okay, but that was the inciting incident that put 168 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: me on this path. Wow. 169 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 2: And then are you are you married? You have kids? 170 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: I don't have kids, but I am married. 171 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 2: Yes, So how is that for your husband? Like, how 172 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 2: is how is he walking through with this knowing that 173 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 2: he doesn't know when he could lose you. 174 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: I actually think that I'll probably outlive him, and he agrees. 175 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: So it's not something that we talk about our stress about. 176 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: We met before we met while I was making my 177 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: film and writing my book. He was the editor on 178 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: my project and I was the director of the project. 179 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: So we've been doing this together a hell of a 180 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: long time and He's like, if there's one person that's 181 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: going to remain, it's her. She's like cockroaches and twinkies. 182 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: You can't get rid of her. 183 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 4: So I love your calm confidence when you say it. 184 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 4: You're like, I'm going to outlive him. So that's just it. 185 00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, it's. 186 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: More so about like, am I gonna of an impenthouse 187 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: at the ritz with cats? 188 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 3: Like? Is what are my final years going to look like? 189 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 3: Like's that's where I spoke to qut my energy. 190 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 2: For the person that does have a fear of death, 191 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 2: what would be your advice to them to overcome that? 192 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: I don't think it's overcomeable. If we're to be honest 193 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: with ourselves, because death is probably the thing that every 194 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: single one of us, we're in some ways frightened about 195 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,079 Speaker 1: it or in very valid ways terrified of it, because 196 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: no matter what we believe to be true, we truly 197 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: don't know what happens after we die or you will 198 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: learn that then. And so I think more often than not, 199 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: I would say, first and foremost, if you find yourself catastrophizing, 200 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: to be able to come back to the moment and say, like, 201 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: this is a story that I'm telling you about this. 202 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 3: I'm not dying currently in this. 203 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: Moment, like you know, even if I am not if 204 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: I am dying, I am still here right now, right 205 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: And so that's one thing. But I think to understand 206 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: it a little bit more because because we're frightened of it, 207 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: oftentimes we are skillless and we have no tools when 208 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 1: it matters. So not just your own death, but the 209 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: death of a loved one, and then you know, not 210 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: knowing what it's actually going to happen, is your body 211 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: shuts down, or what hospice is, or you know what 212 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: your options are or what like thinking about your end 213 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 1: of life care, which can feel like no way, I'm 214 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: not going to go there. That's so morbid. But you know, 215 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: we spend a whole lot of energy preparing to bring 216 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: a child into the world, and there's a lot of 217 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: celebration and joy and fear and all of the stuff 218 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: that happens, right, But we put death under the carpet 219 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: or we shove it in a corner and we archive 220 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: our elders, And there's something very wrong with that, and 221 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: each and one of us will face it at some point, 222 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: So why not educate ourselves more about it so we 223 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: can have a good death. 224 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 4: I want to have a good death. 225 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 2: What do you want? We want a party? Do we 226 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: want speeches? 227 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 4: Do we want sound baths? I mean maybe all of that. 228 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 4: I love for you to just have a little retreat 229 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 4: for yourself and my honors. Use me as an excuse 230 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 4: to get a break. A girl. 231 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 2: We'll go at the same time. 232 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 4: We go, hold hands. Yeah, neither one of us are 233 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 4: living without each other. I do know that it's codependency 234 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:31,679 Speaker 4: in its most beautiful form. 235 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:32,319 Speaker 3: Chris Carr. 236 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: As you know, as I like that, you'll be like 237 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,319 Speaker 1: Domblin Louise, like you know, hands together and off the 238 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: cliff you go. 239 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 4: Listen. We could bury each other quite literally with all 240 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 4: the ship we know about each other already, so we 241 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 4: might as well just go at the same time. 242 00:12:45,120 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 2: True debt, True debt. What was the hardest chap for 243 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 2: you to write in your new book. 244 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: I'd say the most beautiful chapter I wrote was actually 245 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: about my dad's passing, and I was writing that book 246 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: and crying and you know, feeling all the feelings and 247 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: because there was a lot of truth there and beauty there. 248 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: But I'd say the hardest chapter for me to write 249 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: was a book about a chapter about rage. So this 250 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 1: chapter is called Becoming Unbecoming, and in the book, I 251 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,959 Speaker 1: break out each chapter according to different emotions or experiences 252 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: that you might go through when she hits the fan. 253 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,839 Speaker 1: And what I wasn't prepared for was the amount of 254 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: anger and rage that came up in me, not just 255 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: for his diagnosis and the idea of losing him, but 256 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: also trauma and unprocessed emotions from my own diagnosis twenty 257 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: years ago. And my father is my chosen father, so 258 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: I'm adopted. But also so what was coming up too 259 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: is trauma and anger towards my biological father, right, and 260 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: holy crap, the whirlwind. And so here I am writing 261 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 1: about this while I'm also not too far out from 262 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: experiencing this very big emotion. And what I found so 263 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: healing in the process of just writing the book, and 264 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: I hope people experience reading it, is when we begin 265 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: to become more emotionally literate and understand the anatomy of 266 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: our emotions. Then we get curious and say, Okay, this 267 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: is what it is, this is how it behaves, this 268 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: is normal, and usually there's something else attached to it 269 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: or underneath it. So rather than going into a shame 270 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: spiral because I had either irruptions or implosions. I could go, oh, well, 271 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: let me put on my little wellness detective hat and 272 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: see what's really going on here, which would help me 273 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: become more compassionate towards myself, maybe forgive myself for certain 274 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: things that I did that I wish I hadn't, and 275 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: ultimately build a healthier relationship with me. 276 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 4: They're so brilliant and such a little light. 277 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 2: Well, you can relate on the dad in the dad 278 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 2: sad too of it, you know, losing your father and 279 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 2: having anger from your own childhood and the passing. It's 280 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 2: like it's a it's it's a lot. It's a lot 281 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 2: to hold all different feelings. It's like the angry, the sad, 282 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 2: the betrayed, the. 283 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 4: It's also interesting too, I think the there's the morning 284 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 4: that you do in your own self, and then there's 285 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 4: a morning that you that I at least experienced, and 286 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 4: like the idea of what people may or may not 287 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 4: become or how they may or may not show up 288 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 4: in my life after my dad passed, so I had 289 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 4: anticipated maybe a different relationship with my mom, and I 290 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 4: also in not that any of us can predict, right 291 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 4: that's like grief is the sneaky grief is just me, 292 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 4: and so it comes out in different ways, and there's 293 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 4: an emotional intelligence level too. 294 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 3: Like I. 295 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 4: Went first into like my own therapy triage, I just 296 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 4: needed a minute. There was times where I took myself 297 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 4: out of my own world because I did have the rage. 298 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 4: I was snappy with my kids, I was snappy with 299 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 4: my husband and I just looked at him and I said, 300 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 4: this has nothing to do with you. And I know that. 301 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 4: And so I was able to take a thirty six 302 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 4: hour mini trip with my very best friend from home, 303 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 4: who I knew was going to love me through even 304 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 4: if I was just a little head for thirty six hours, 305 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 4: you know. And I came back and those things don't fix, 306 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 4: but they're deposits in the healing. But there was there 307 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 4: is an interesting thing that I'm observing in the way 308 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 4: that my mom is processing grief and her mourning that 309 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 4: is also then an offshoot of my mourning, Like huh, well, 310 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 4: I kind of thought maybe she would be around more 311 00:16:55,760 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 4: and more participatory in like my world. Or because my 312 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 4: dad was an addict, so he drank and drug addiction 313 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 4: my entire life and was very good at victimizing himself, 314 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 4: and so he and we then, you know, the cycle 315 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 4: of all of that is that we have to pretend 316 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 4: that he was a certain way. And my mom is 317 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 4: still very much pretending. And so when I interrupt the 318 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 4: pr campaign for him by stating something on social media, 319 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 4: being vulnerable whatever, and I'm never mean about him, he 320 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 4: can't defend himself. What good does that do? But I 321 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 4: am open to say, like Father's Day sucks, and it 322 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 4: sucked for a lot of us before our dads died, 323 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 4: you know, and I'd say it much more beautifully than that. 324 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 4: But the mourning, the loss of ideas, I think is 325 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 4: also another layer that goes with grief, and it's mourning 326 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 4: maybe the people that are still alive a little bit 327 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 4: in a way. Did you experience any of that around. 328 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 1: Oh, without question, because I think what happens is when 329 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: you go through loss, family structures and relationships change, and 330 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: sometimes what wasn't working really comes out right, and so 331 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 1: there's big tectonic shifts in the structure. And from my 332 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,640 Speaker 1: own experience, it's just I can't change you. The only 333 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: time you can change someone is when they're in diapers. 334 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: It's a good thing to remember, I. 335 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 4: Really want to hug you that one hits. 336 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 1: So I can't fix somebody else. I can't change how 337 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 1: they're feeling. And I think when we talk about like 338 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: what I mentioned earlier about the chapter awkward times, awkward people, 339 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: we step in it so much with each other around 340 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 1: this messy stuff. Sometimes we center ourselves. Sometimes we interrupt, 341 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 1: we make it all about us. Sometimes we quickly change 342 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: the topic. All of these things that we do, I 343 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 1: believe in the goodness of people. We do them unintentionally, right, 344 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,120 Speaker 1: but we do them because we don't know what to do. 345 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: And so it's one of those practices where it's like 346 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 1: keep your side of the street clean and say, you know, 347 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 1: here's the work that I'm doing on my own healing. 348 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 1: And first and foremost, like there's a story that I 349 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 1: write about in the book that I've been talking a 350 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: lot about in podcasts, which is because it was emotion 351 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 1: I didn't want to experience, and because I kept pushing 352 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 1: it down. There was one moment where it was like 353 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,199 Speaker 1: at the tipping point and I was in CBS and 354 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: my mom had asked me to pick up more and 355 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 1: sure we didn't know how much longer my father had 356 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 1: and unconsciously, the thought came to mind, like should I 357 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 1: get a six pack or should I get a case? Well, 358 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: how long does he have to live? And all of 359 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: the flood of emotion that I had been keeping at 360 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: base just came to the surface, and I was like 361 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: and run out of CBS and I made it to 362 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: my car, and then the deluge just came out. But 363 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: after that experience, there was like a calm in the storm. 364 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: It was almost like a dose of medicine. It's like 365 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,919 Speaker 1: I was high, and I thought to myself, this feels 366 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: so much better. And if this feels better, why am 367 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 1: I avoiding it? And what else am I avoiding? Right? 368 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 3: And so. 369 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,360 Speaker 1: Doing that work of like, hey, this is my side 370 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: of the street. This is the grief that I'm experiencing. 371 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 1: And yes, there it has tentacles. But everybody's journey, I think, 372 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: through it, not over it, but through it is unique 373 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: to their own hearts. 374 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 2: The side of the street things interesting because I remember 375 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 2: doing that with the past, and sometimes other people can 376 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 2: spill all their stuff on the other side of the 377 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 2: street too, So now you're only cleaning, You're cleaning up 378 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 2: lots of stuff on the side of the street. 379 00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 4: But I keep getting invited over on the other side 380 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 4: the street. I think that's where I'm like, oh no, no, 381 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 4: I'm good over here. Yeah, yeah, thank you. It is 382 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 4: interesting though that you say people will You said something 383 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 4: that really super reminded me. I'm always careful to say 384 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 4: too much on here because, like, my mom is a 385 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 4: healthy person out in the world, so it's not a 386 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 4: bad thing, but I do there's so much attention back 387 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 4: to her. Like even my daughter has recognized a couple 388 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 4: of things where she's like, wow, it's just really about her, 389 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 4: and it's like she's just in this like freedom phase. 390 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 4: I call it spring break if I'm honest, which is 391 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 4: probably a little ugly, but I mean, she's on spring break. 392 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: You know. 393 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 4: She also took care of him for a long time. 394 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 4: They were married for forty years, and she'd been with 395 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 4: him since he was she was twenty three, So a 396 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 4: lot of times I witnessed twenty three year old like behavior. 397 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 4: If I'm just observing, I'm not judging, just truly just observing. 398 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:58,479 Speaker 4: I'm like, huh, that's interesting, but that, like it is 399 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 4: their own process and so sometimes really hard to watch. 400 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 4: So did you did you feel like this if this 401 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 4: is too personal that's fine, you can just give me 402 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 4: the pass or tell me no, because I know you're 403 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:14,159 Speaker 4: good at it. But how did your mom's relationship and 404 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 4: your relationship then change after the passing of your dad. 405 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 4: Did you feel like the big shifts or did it 406 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 4: feel like you leaned into each other more? Was there 407 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 4: a time of space? Does it go with the ebbs 408 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,199 Speaker 4: and flows? Does it like how does that work for 409 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:27,640 Speaker 4: you too? 410 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,199 Speaker 1: We're a lot closer now, but we're both committed to 411 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: the work and it's messy. So there are times when 412 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: I'm like, you're stepping on me, You're making this all 413 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 1: about you. I don't feel heard. Yeah, that's the truth 414 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 1: of my experience. And does she hear you, Yes, one 415 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: hundred percent. Because we have decided that we're going to 416 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 1: do the hard stuff because our relationship is our core intention, right, 417 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: And so that means when you're like, well, my intention 418 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: is to have a healthy relationship with you, that means 419 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: I'm going to have a lot of times with you too, 420 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about him. 421 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 3: That's the piece. 422 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so it's not it's not like it hasn't 423 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: been bumpy. 424 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 2: It was. 425 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: It's been very bumpy at times. But it's like, Okay, 426 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: what's my what's my goal here? It's to have a 427 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 1: deeper relationship with this person. And I think what you're 428 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: talking about is centering yourself, and so I see that 429 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: a lot in grief, because it oftentimes can come from anxiety. 430 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: I don't know what to say, so I'll just say 431 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 1: a lot of things and make it about me and 432 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 1: a lo Oftentimes, you know, just because I've written this 433 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: book and I've done a deep exploration of this topic 434 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: for the last four and a half five years personally 435 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: but also as an author, people will. 436 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,640 Speaker 3: Say, well, well, if you. 437 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: You know all these things not to say, and we 438 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 1: could talk about some of those, but what do you 439 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: say to somebody who's going through grieving process? And I'm like, 440 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: there's actually nothing you can say. You can't say, so 441 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: take the pressure off. You can't make it better, but 442 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,120 Speaker 1: what you can do, and it's you're not your job 443 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: to fix it, By the way, it's not your job 444 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: to fix it. If you want to be in relationship 445 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: with this person, then my advice is just to listen. 446 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: Just just show up and be present and be like, 447 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say, but I love you. 448 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 1: I brought tissues or brought lasagna. 449 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's I mean everything, because it's like, 450 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 2: even like going through you know, divorce or whatever, people 451 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 2: will be like, oh, well, at least it's like no, 452 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 2: there's no don't give me an at least, don't give 453 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 2: me a butt, don't give me a well you get 454 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 2: your kids. Oh my gosh, well, how nice of a break. 455 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 2: I'm like that none of that helps to hear any 456 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 2: of that. That's I don't want to break from my kids, 457 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 2: Like I like, sure, yeah I do, but like I 458 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 2: don't want them out of my house, you know, like 459 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 2: every other weekend. Or it's like I think people their 460 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 2: own uncomfortability lends them to saying like, well, now you 461 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 2: can do whatever you want because you've got a death 462 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 2: sentence and you can now go do what. It's like, no, 463 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 2: like none of these nothing you're saying is actually. 464 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 4: It's like we default to this like bright side mentality, 465 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 4: and sometimes it's okay to just say, like I I 466 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:23,199 Speaker 4: work in an infant stillborn task force in Nashville, so 467 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 4: we'll go and so I'm in the thin places a lot. 468 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 4: And that's been interesting to navigate to after the loss 469 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 4: of my dad, and all these others at the same time. 470 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,400 Speaker 4: But I think, like the most validating thing to say 471 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 4: to anybody, whether it's divorce, miscarriage, death, any of this 472 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:45,719 Speaker 4: is just like I'm sorry, and it's not fair because 473 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 4: that's the reality. I mean, it's like we toxically bright 474 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 4: side everything, Like you don't want to be without your 475 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 4: kids for a week. You actually didn't even want to 476 00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 4: get divorce. No, I mean, it's just crazy. It's like 477 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 4: we all it is that, Like, I think, what the 478 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 4: most beautiful thing? And I cannot wait to read your 479 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 4: book truly, Like, and it's gonna sound creepy, but I'm 480 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 4: taking you in the bathtub with me. I guess that's 481 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 4: when it's the most silent for me. But I think 482 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 4: the most beautiful thing is just this this idea that 483 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 4: we just need to like sit with it because we're 484 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 4: so we're such a go society. We're so fast paced 485 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 4: that we even just fast paced ourselves through emotion. It's like, oh, 486 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 4: no time for that. Got to keep on moving because 487 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,439 Speaker 4: I mean, but eventually it does, like it builds up, 488 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 4: it goes somewhere, whether it's in your body, whether it's 489 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 4: out on a spouse, you know, I mean, there's we 490 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 4: need the freedom. 491 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, and let's agree with you more. 492 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 4: I know that's why you're going in the bath with me. 493 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 2: Chris car Well, everyone go get Chris Carr's book. I'm 494 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 2: not a morning person braving loss, grief and the big 495 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 2: messy emotions that happen when life falls apart. Thank you 496 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 2: for sharing your story. Thank you for being honest and 497 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 2: vulnerable and helping so many people. And you have an, 498 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 2: you know, an incredible story, and obviously you're helping people that, 499 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,159 Speaker 2: like you said, they go through all types of loss. 500 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 2: So thank you for doing what you do in writing 501 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 2: that book. 502 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. 503 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 4: Thanks girl, What a good, wonderful spirit.