WEBVTT - An Eye-Opening Exploration of Billionaire Bill Gates 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:08.960 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. This is Bloomberg Business 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:20.439 Week with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:23.640 What are the words you think of when you hear 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:31.160 the name Bill Gates, tech, visionary, innovator, philanthropist. I don't know. 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:35.000 Maybe some people would think vaccine, microchip implants. 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:37.720 Yeah, truly, supporter of nuclear energy. 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:41.279 Yeah, that's one too few. It's a phrase. Yeah. How 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:46.040 about billionaire nerd savior and king also works. That's the 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:49.040 title of a new book by Ada Das, South Asia, 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:51.239 correspondent for The New York Times. It focuses on the 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:55.560 life of what many would consider a pretty complicated and 0:00:55.680 --> 0:00:57.840 extremely accomplished individual. 0:00:58.080 --> 0:01:01.280 Got it nailed? Joins us now from New York. 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:03.520 The full title of our book, by the way, is 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:07.160 as you just said, Billionaire Nerd Savior, King, Bill Gates 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:08.679 and his Quest to Shape Our World. 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:10.679 It is out today. Prita. 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:12.600 It is so nice to have you here on Blueberg 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:15.160 Business Week. I always think about a book like this, 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:19.120 someone very well known. We talk about Bill Gates a 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:20.319 lot here at Bloomberg. 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:22.320 Why did you write this book? 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:24.840 What was it about Gates beyond being one of the 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:29.119 world's richest and most recognizable. Was there one specific event or. 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:30.240 Just why did you do it? 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:31.559 Yeah? 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:34.160 Thanks Carrol. Two stories. 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:37.280 One is that when in twenty fourteen, when I was 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:41.039 at the Wall Street Journal, I came across Bill Gates's 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:44.160 fortune and the investment firm that manages it. Now very 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:47.080 few people knew about it. It's called Cascade, and the 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:50.600 way his money was invested, from the Four Seasons hotel 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:53.880 to farmland to all kinds of assets made it really 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:56.960 interesting because it was like an investment firm but belonging 0:01:57.000 --> 0:01:59.960 to one man. And so in twenty twenty one, move 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:02.800 to The Times, and then I got pulled into the 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:05.960 reporting when the divorce of Bill and Melinda happened, because 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:08.840 I had this context for their fortune, and so that 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:12.400 then got me thinking about who is this man? You know, 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:15.120 we'd always thought, as you said, you know, we'd always 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:18.919 thought of him in all these different ways, but you know, 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:22.200 who is he behind all of these kind of images. 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:25.000 So in twenty twenty one that was my ahamament. I 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:28.320 thought it's worth investigating the persona and the man. 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.480 Well, there's a lot to unpack here because it's four 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:34.560 decades in public life and He's done a lot, not 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:38.040 just when it comes to building Microsoft, but also of 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:42.960 course philanthropy. I loved the excerpt of the book in 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:45.080 the New York Times just a few days ago about 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:49.200 his evolving relationship with Warren Buffett. Can you talk a 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:54.120 little bit about that and how you reported not just 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:58.639 that part of the book, but also who you spoke 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:02.840 to to paint this portrait of this complicated person. 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:06.160 I mean, I can't divulge my sources. 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:05.840 But. 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:11.520 You can. You can if you want. You know, Warren, 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:13.280 did Warren talk to you? 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:18.720 Warren spoke on the record. You know he is in fact, 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:21.160 you know, I used to cover Again, a lot of 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:23.520 this goes back to the Journal when I was a reporter. 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:26.320 You know, I used to write about Warren Buffett and 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:30.480 Berkshire Hathaway. So the relationship of the two men was 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:33.080 also equally interesting. The first time I saw them at 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:35.920 the Berkshire Hathway meeting, just kind of walking around, you know, 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:39.280 talking to shareholders, and it just struck me as kind 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:43.280 of a you know, a very casual but very intimate friendship. 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:45.480 And then I began looking at it and seeing that 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:47.960 you know, they've talked about each has talked about the 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:51.280 other and sort of the magic of their friendship over 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:54.880 the decades, and you know, Bill Gates definitely has kind 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:56.800 of advertised that piece of it. 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:59.640 It's almost like part of his brand. Every year, nearly 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:01.000 every on. 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:04.800 Gates notes his blog, he posts something like a goofy 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:08.960 video or post dedicated to Buffett, and so that was 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:12.480 really interesting to me. But in recent years, I think 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:17.119 once Buffett decided that he wasn't he had always said 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:20.800 that he wasn't going to give his money to anyone. 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:22.800 He hadn't decided who he was going to give his 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:26.159 money to after his death, but there was always like 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:28.520 an assumption that the Gates Foundation stood to get all 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:31.680 of the money. And when he eventually decided who was 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:35.280 going to get that money after he died, it was 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:37.400 not going to be the Gates Foundation, And so I 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:39.520 think there was a little bit of tension there that 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:44.159 I tried to capture in that piece that The Times ran, 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:47.320 and it was you know, I think they have very 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:50.960 different lifestyles. Buffett, as I'm sure you guys know, is 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:57.160 a kind of more folksy, simple sort of person, very Midwestern, 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:00.280 and then Gates has more of the traditional trap things 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:03.480 of a billionaire, So it was interesting to see their 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:07.440 divergent paths but also examine the basis of their friendship. 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:11.279 You know, you said earlier about you know, you wanted 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:14.120 to kind of dig into the persona and the man. 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:15.600 Are they that different? 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:20.160 Yeah, that's that's a really interesting question. 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:23.320 I think that plays into a lot of what we 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:26.080 in the media, how we and what we write and 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:28.960 what we choose to write feeds into the image of 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:32.279 a person who's in the in you know, the public eye, 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:36.680 in the sense that you interact with someone, you see 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:39.200 him or her in a closed setting, you get more 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:42.080 of a sense of who they are based on interactions, 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:45.480 based on your sources. You start creating this image of 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:48.680 a person in the media. So it's true the persona 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:52.560 is based on many fundamental elements of who the person is, 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:55.280 but then it also takes on its own life. And 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:57.080 then if you're a billionaire or you have like a 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:00.479 lot of resources that you can dedicate to that, then 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:06.560 I think you're basically sustaining, nurturing, minimizing, you know, enhancing 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:09.120 certain aspects of that image to really. 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:11.360 Suit your needs and ends. And this isn't. 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:15.120 Necessarily nefarious, but it's just what image making can do. 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:18.440 And so I think there are elements of a person's 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:22.720 internal personality or like in close settings, and then how 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:25.640 that gets, how that feeds into a persona and how 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:30.520 then people kind of keep manufacturing and finessing it, which 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:31.800 to me was really interesting. 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:35.200 Budgates, did you like him as you did this process? 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:39.839 Well, he didn't grant me an interview, so that you know, 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:41.120 I couldn't tell. 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:42.320 You any more than that. 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:44.800 But but you talk to a lot of people about him, 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:49.799 and we can get for a picture of someone maybe 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:52.280 clearer than the narrative that's out there publicly. 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:54.240 Absolutely. 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:57.600 I think what was most interesting to me is that 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:00.680 the essential person has not changed. Right. 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:02.800 He's mellowed obviously over the decades. 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:08.560 We all do, but his essential personality the way he's 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:12.600 obviously supremely smart, but he can sometimes be abrasive, he 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:17.480 can be impatient with employees. He enjoys, you know, working 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:20.680 in a combative culture. And that was the case of Microsoft, 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:23.400 and that is also the case of the Gates Foundation, 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:27.560 except that what happens is that Microsoft rewarded that sort 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:31.560 of competitive, you know culture, whereas the Gates Foundation. I 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:35.560 think people come from very different backgrounds, So it sat 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:41.160 uncomfortably inside the Gates Foundation. But it struck me as 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:45.480 really interesting that he was essentially the same person, but 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:51.400 he had also changed his image over the decades, you know, 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:55.080 to find that continuity, the consistency in so many ways, 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:58.200 but to then place it against how we looked at 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:01.720 him as a nerd, sort of ruthless monopolist. 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:04.760 This is, you know, philanthropist. 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:06.160 Rockefeller, like Robert Baron kind of thing. 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:09.320 Because you write about its absolutely. 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:14.600 What was the anti trust? Was the anti trust issue 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.520 at Microsoft? Was that a pivotal turning point for him 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:20.440 or when do you think this metamorphosis or transformation began? 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:22.560 Yeah, it did. 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:24.760 I think he had always said that he was going 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:28.080 to give the bulk of his fortune to philanthropy. I 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:31.720 think the time hadn't been decided. And you have to 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:35.160 remember that in the nineteen nineties there was only Microsoft. 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:37.680 Now we think about Google and Amazon and Facebook and 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:41.040 a lot of companies that are facing similar antitrust scrutiny. 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:43.840 But in the nineteen nineties, the late the second half 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:46.800 of the nineties, Microsoft was it. It was the company. 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:50.960 It captured everyone's imagination. But also, and as a result 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:54.240 of that. I think Gates' performance, even though we didn't 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:57.320 have social media then and we didn't have viral moments, 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:02.920 Gates's performance riveted and people realized that this was a 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:07.960 man who just who would become a distraction for Microsoft. 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:10.520 So I think it made sense for him to then 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:13.680 step step down from the CEO role in two thousand 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:15.679 and Also, he was tired. 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:17.640 I think he just he said a. 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:19.920 Source of mind told me that he was tired, didn't 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:22.360 nowhere else to go, and he just also felt that 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:26.800 Microsoft was a shiny example of American innovation and why 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:29.840 was the government going against him? And so I think 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:32.280 there was there was a lot of confusion and a 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:35.319 lot of pain. And then he turned to philanthropy because 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:37.480 it was there. It was something he had always intended 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:40.800 to do, and he found that he really liked it. 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:42.959 And then it was go big or go home, because 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:46.880 that's that's what Gates, that's who Gates is. He started Microsoft, 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:50.960 changed the personal computing world, and now he's changed philanthropy 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:52.920 with this Mammoth Foundation. 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:59.120 Hey, you mentioned anti trust. There's a headline crossing the 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:02.680 Bloomberg terminal right now. Kind of perfect timing on your part, 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:05.960 I should say US anti trust enforcers are reviewing Google 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:08.600 remedy options and a rare bid to break up Alphabet's 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:10.679 Google is one of the options being considered by the 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:13.640 Justice Department after a landmark court ruling found that the 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:16.320 company monopolized the online search market. According to people with 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:17.720 knowledge of the deliberations, do. 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:18.439 You want to point out? 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:21.319 Shares of Alphabet or down about one point three percent 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:24.400 in the aftermarket. The move would be Washington's first push 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:28.400 to dismantle a company for illegal monopolization since own sex 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:30.840 unsuccessful efforts to break up Microsoft. 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:33.120 We were just talking about that. That was, of course, 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:34.600 two decades ago. Less of your. 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:38.600 Options include forcing Google to share more data with competitors 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:41.480 and measures to prevent it from gaining an unfair advantage 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:43.959 in AI products. This is according to the people who 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:47.480 asked not to be identified discussing private conversations. Again, Shares 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:51.120 of Alphabet down about one point five percent in the aftermarket. 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:52.760 I want to get back to We're talking with Anna 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:55.800 Prita Das. She is a South Asia correspondent for The 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:58.600 New York Times. Her new book, as we said, is 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:01.760 about Bill Gates in Your Nerd Savior, King Bill Gates 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:03.400 and his quest to shape our world. 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:04.320 Just get about a. 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:05.680 Minute and a half and then we'll come back and 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:09.559 talk some more. Did you find a lot of surprises 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:13.319 in this process in terms of new things you learned 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:14.240 about Bill Gates? 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:21.120 Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things, Carol 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:26.440 is we didn't really understand and I think that I 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:31.400 think the entire world aid doesn't quite understand why he 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:34.520 met with Jeffrey Epstein so many times. And the question 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:39.080 for me that's been the most interesting to explore is 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:41.960 that if your gates are if you're a billionaire, you 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.800 have armies of people whose job it is to sustain 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:47.480 and polish and nurture your image. 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:47.800 Right. 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:51.199 Building Bill's brand is something I examined in the book, 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:55.840 and yet you have despite having all these people, even 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:59.880 a basic Google search right would reveal that Epstein by 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:03.640 was a convicted sex offender and someone who perhaps wasn't 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:07.240 the best kind of person from an optics standpoint for 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:13.000 a billionaire with what Gates was trying to do to interact. 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:15.000 So that was surprising to me. It was a failure 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:18.640 lapse of judgment that I wouldn't expect. But it also 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:20.480 ties back to the personality that. 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.600 Gates is We'll continue on this because I do agree 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:27.360 that this is an interesting aspect of certainly his story 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:29.520 that is still being told, but that you cover so much. 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:31.960 We were to come back with Prita Dos her new book, 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:34.720 Billionaire Nerd Savior King. You are listening and watching Bloomberg 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:36.679 Business Week right here on Bloomberg Radio. 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:39.880 I want to get right back to Onoprida Dos. She's 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:42.920 South Asia correspondent for The New York Times, her new book, 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:46.440 Billionaire Nerd Savior King. Bill Gates in his Quest to 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:51.760 Shape Our World. You were talking about Jeffrey Epstein just 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:54.800 moments ago and the relationship that Bill Gates had with 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:59.040 Jeffrey Epstein. And I got to tell you the parts 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:00.600 in your book that focus on and I've gotten ad 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:03.640 a lot of media attention over the last couple of weeks. 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:07.120 Just explain what you learned about his relationship with Jeffrey 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:12.439 Epstein and why they found themselves having a relationship. 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:15.520 Yeah, So what happened. 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:21.080 My best reconstruction, based on my reporting and documents, is 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:23.800 that in twenty ten, you had the Giving Pledge, which 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:26.560 was this effort essentially a get out of the vote 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:30.000 campaign by Gates Warren, Buffett and Milan of French Gates 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:34.480 to get other billionaires to commit to pledge to commit 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:40.559 half or more of their fortunes to charity. And at 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:44.280 that time a lot of billionaires were very interested in 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:47.480 finding a way to put their money to use. Having 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:50.080 the money is almost easier than figuring out how to 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:53.360 give it away wisely, and so the Gates Foundation was 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:57.160 very much set up to use billions of dollars and 0:13:57.240 --> 0:14:01.000 Gates was in the middle of this massive push toward 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:05.280 polio eradication. He'd been the foundation, been working with other entities, 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:08.800 and it was one of those times when Gates wanted 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:11.560 to raise a lot of money. So Epstein kind of 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.680 being in these circles of influence and power, he's someone 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:19.440 who kind of collects, you know, collected bits and pieces 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:23.600 of information, used leverage wherever he could, and realized that 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:27.400 there might be an opportunity for him to pitch something 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:31.920 called donor advised fund, and he wrote in JP Morgan 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:35.880 and Jim Morgan had like other another relationship with the 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:39.440 Gates Foundation. So he looked at all of this, he 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:42.880 began pitching this idea for a donor advised fund. He 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:46.440 reached out to people who he knew at the Gates Foundation, 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:50.200 who you know, had an overlap with Gates of course, 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:55.360 and began seeking an introduction. Now Gates took that introduction. 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:56.840 There was there. 0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:00.400 He came and visited Epstein at his house the time, 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:04.200 and then there was another meeting where there was a 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:09.200 presentation Epstein had slides and everything. So that until then 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:13.560 perhaps all well and good, But after that, the fact 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:17.680 that he kept meeting with Epstein several times ostensibly to 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:20.600 discuss philanthropy, and Gates has always said that he hasn't 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:22.480 That was the only reason then that he was sorry 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:23.680 for the lapse in judgment. 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:25.720 But it still. 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:31.000 Is a question for for Gates, essentially because he is 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:33.600 perhaps the only person who would know why he kept 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:37.680 going back and meeting with Epstein. There are people who 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:40.920 say that Gates was enamored. 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:42.400 Of Epstein's lifestyle. 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.480 He did write to some employees and the Gates Foundation 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:47.840 after saying that you know, he does have an adventurous, 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:50.960 different lifestyle, but it's not for me. I'm not putting 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:54.480 words into Gates's mouth, but that was essentially the point 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:58.160 of what he was saying, and so clearly there was 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:04.680 maybe amusement maybe surprise, maybe anticipation. 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:06.160 It's hard to say. 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:09.160 But again, coming back to the point I was making earlier, 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:12.680 it is a surprising lapse in judgment for the people 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:17.920 who work for him, but for Gates himself it's actually 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:21.040 not that surprising, given that he does have a certain 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:24.000 naivete when it comes to personal relationships. 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:25.960 Now, you said you didn't get to talk to Bill 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:27.000 Gates right for the book. 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:32.080 No, I didn't. He turned down my request for an interview. 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:35.400 Did he Were you able to ask him any questions 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:37.840 like write and get responses or no, nothing at all. 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:38.960 No. 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:41.840 So what happened was that it was interesting because I 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:45.120 sent them detailed fact checking lists, both at Gates Ventures, 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:48.200 which is a private firm, and the Gates Foundation back 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:52.360 in January or February, months months before. They stalled in 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:56.880 stonewalled and didn't acknowledge my emails, and at the end 0:16:56.920 --> 0:16:58.480 when I said you have to give me a comment, 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:01.880 they said it was hearsay. And then just weeks before 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:07.119 we went to publication, they got back on some of 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:10.600 the Epstein related points and they refuted and said that 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:14.720 they could present documented evidence, and I asked for that, 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:18.639 and they didn't provide anything. And the book went to print, 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:22.560 and then the Daily Mail, of all the Daily Mail 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:26.000 and the New York Post put out these tidbits from 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.080 my book, and they were overblown and not entirely accurate, 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.000 but the Gates found. But then Gates is private firm 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:35.080 then put out a statement saying that it was all 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:39.960 wild allegations and that they presented me with documented evidence 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:42.240 that I chose to ignore, which is not true. 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:50.800 Speaking of wild things that potentially could come up. I 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:53.760 was joking at the top when I said the microchip 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:56.199 vaccine stuff, but only half joking in the sense that 0:17:56.240 --> 0:18:00.240 these are real conspiracy theories about Bill Gates. Can you 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.080 talk a little bit about where those come from and 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:05.720 the idea of this quote unquote Davos elite that wants 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:06.639 to control the world. 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:12.800 I think the fact that Gates was so prominent suddenly 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:17.520 in everywhere, he was suddenly everywhere. He was talking about vaccines, 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:21.359 he was sharing the stage with doctor Anthony Fauci, he 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:24.639 was advocating, he was kind of out there everywhere. He 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:27.720 couldn't miss him, which led a lot of people to wonder, 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:31.359 and I speak to I have one person in the 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:34.840 book who said, who made the point that you know, 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:38.360 I had always thought of Gates as the Microsoft co founder, 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:41.240 and suddenly, why is this guy talking about vaccines? And 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:44.760 so I think if you are grown to conspiracy theories, 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:47.679 I think that was kind of the first signed for 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:50.840 a lot of people that maybe Gates has some kind 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:54.159 of vested interest, and you know, conspiracy theories obviously. 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:55.200 Take on a life of their own. 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:58.440 And I think there was a study, and don't quote 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:00.760 me on this, but I think there's a study looking 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:06.520 at the feasibility of having some information, you know, implanted 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:09.600 into a person's under a person's skin, and it was 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:13.240 an mit feasibility study and nothing came of it, but 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:17.000 that led to this kind of big idea that somehow 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:20.439 Gates was trying to you know, implant chips and people 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:22.680 and kind of all manner of things. 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:24.920 Now I think for. 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:28.440 The vaccines, And you know, Gates was He's a rational guy. 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:31.440 He's driven by evidence and science and tech, and I 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:36.159 think he just didn't understand why there were people questioning 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.240 what seemed to him very obvious steps. He couldn't understand 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.879 being a personal target of the conspiracy theories. 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:47.760 We just have about forty five seconds left here. Your 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:53.240 title billionaire nerd Savior King, which is the most appropriate 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:56.160 as you finish your book in terms of which word 0:19:56.200 --> 0:20:00.320 really you would most closely identify with him, As I said, 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:01.400 only got about forty. 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:03.560 Seconds today, it would be King. 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:06.160 He really kind of is on top of so many 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:09.679 you know, I would say Savior King. Perhaps the billionaire 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:13.360 is a fact, the nerd is a version of him 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:16.359 back in the day, but today he's kind of on 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:19.639 top of the world, sharing the stage with heads of state, 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:23.520 and he is a savior of people in the global 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:24.760 South with the Gates Foundation. 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:26.480 So I would say Savior King. 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:28.840 Very cool stuff. 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:32.160 Really enjoyed this and good luck with the book, and 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:34.440 I'm really glad that we could get time with you 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:38.119 and youre. Pritadas is South Asia correspondent for The New 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:42.120 York Times and her new book is Billionaire Nerds Savior King, 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:44.520 Bill Gates and His Quest to Shape Our World. 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:47.280 That book is out today. Looking forward to that and 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:49.639 that's no doubt about that. Probably going to hit our 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:51.000 weekend podcasting broadcast. 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:52.800 Yeah, I think that's safe to say.