1
00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:05,880
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

2
00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:13,440
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this

3
00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:18,840
Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Doctor Peter Afia,

4
00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:23,480
Speaker 1: celebrity longevity doctor, frequent Joe Rogan, podcast guests, and podcaster

5
00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,480
Speaker 1: in his own right, is in hot water at CBS

6
00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:30,680
Speaker 1: after appearing in the Epstein Files. Here's what happened just

7
00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,720
Speaker 1: three days after CBS announced him as a contributor under

8
00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,720
Speaker 1: Barie Weiss's new leadership as part of their grand plan

9
00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,239
Speaker 1: to replace seasoned journalists with a popular network of podcasters

10
00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,559
Speaker 1: and personalities as contributors. The Department of Justice released a

11
00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,960
Speaker 1: trove of documents from the Epstein Files, and right there

12
00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,560
Speaker 1: and black and white was a friendly and salacious correspondence

13
00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,440
Speaker 1: between Audia and convicted sexual predator Jeffrey Epstein. In one

14
00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:59,920
Speaker 1: particularly crude response, Audio wrote, quote pussy is indeed low

15
00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:04,840
Speaker 1: ocarb still awaiting result on gluten content though yuck. So

16
00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,400
Speaker 1: now CBS is taking down some of his content, even

17
00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,360
Speaker 1: though CBS leader Bari Weiss doesn't want to fire him

18
00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:16,360
Speaker 1: because of quote cancel culture. Audio was not the only

19
00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,760
Speaker 1: health and wellness guru that CBS brought on board, doctor

20
00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,080
Speaker 1: Andrew Huberman is still there as a CBS contributor. And

21
00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,120
Speaker 1: if you want to understand how we got to a

22
00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:29,280
Speaker 1: place where mainstream institutions are platforming guys like this and

23
00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:31,600
Speaker 1: why they keep getting caught off guard when it blows

24
00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,840
Speaker 1: up in their faces, you need to understand the Andrew

25
00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:39,280
Speaker 1: Huberman playbook two years ago, when a bombshell story about

26
00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:42,959
Speaker 1: Huberman's personal life broke, producer micanized it a deep dive

27
00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:48,160
Speaker 1: into Huberman's flashy public profile and how wellness culture, specifically

28
00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:52,040
Speaker 1: wellness culture aimed toward men, is used to consolidate power.

29
00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,600
Speaker 1: And I want to revisit that conversation today because Audio's

30
00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,960
Speaker 1: firing is not a fluke, It's the inevitable result of

31
00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:05,120
Speaker 1: a pipeline we've been follow So let's dig in. Welcome

32
00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:07,160
Speaker 1: to our podcast, There are No Girls on the Internet,

33
00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,720
Speaker 1: where we explore the intersection of technology, social media, the Internet,

34
00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,760
Speaker 1: and identity. So this is me doing my best impression

35
00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,800
Speaker 1: of one of my favorite podcasters, Michael Hobbs. Mike, what

36
00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,040
Speaker 1: do you know about Andrew Huberman?

37
00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:26,160
Speaker 2: Well, I'll do my best, Peter, And as far as

38
00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,200
Speaker 2: I know, I don't know a whole lot about him,

39
00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:34,040
Speaker 2: But he's a podcaster, a scientist of some sort, and

40
00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:39,480
Speaker 2: he seems to have a pretty big following in the

41
00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,480
Speaker 2: health lifestyle space.

42
00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,640
Speaker 1: That's pretty spot on. So Angie Huberman is a neuroscientist.

43
00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,880
Speaker 1: He has a very popular podcast. It's one of the

44
00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,360
Speaker 1: most popular podcasts in the world. He currently is a

45
00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:58,280
Speaker 1: professor of neurobiology and Ophthalmology at Stanford University's School of Medicine.

46
00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,640
Speaker 2: Ever heard of it, little old college called Stanford University.

47
00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,680
Speaker 1: So since twenty twenty one, he has hosted a extremely

48
00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:11,160
Speaker 1: popular health and science focused podcast called Huberman Lab that

49
00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:15,520
Speaker 1: is basically all about biohacking, your life, your health, and

50
00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:20,320
Speaker 1: your relationships buttressed by science. He has the third most

51
00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,000
Speaker 1: popular podcast in the United States on Spotify, and at

52
00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,560
Speaker 1: least at one time his podcast was the most followed

53
00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,000
Speaker 1: on Apple. He has five point one million YouTube subscribers

54
00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,680
Speaker 1: and as Instagram account has like five point five million people.

55
00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,000
Speaker 1: A lot of people swear by his life advice. All

56
00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,000
Speaker 1: different kinds of people listen to his podcast. I don't

57
00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:39,840
Speaker 1: want to make it seem like it's just men, but

58
00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,480
Speaker 1: it has really especially taken off with men. I have

59
00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,080
Speaker 1: heard Huberman called goop for.

60
00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,800
Speaker 3: Men goup as in like slimy gunk.

61
00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,920
Speaker 1: Goop, as in the lifestyle brand brought to us by

62
00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,320
Speaker 1: Gwyneth Paltrow. But instead of telling women to like drink

63
00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:00,360
Speaker 1: fifty five dollars smoothies or whatever, or like in some

64
00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,720
Speaker 1: crystals or insert some crystals into their resina, it's for men.

65
00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:07,240
Speaker 1: So the reason why we're talking about Andrew Huberman is

66
00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,040
Speaker 1: because he is in the zeitgeist right now after this.

67
00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:13,760
Speaker 4: Very long, very well written, very well.

68
00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,039
Speaker 1: Researched New York Mag article just dropped doing this deep

69
00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:21,280
Speaker 1: dive into his personal life and his relationships with women. Now,

70
00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:23,680
Speaker 1: I'm not even going to pretend to not be biased here.

71
00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:28,520
Speaker 1: I live for a long read in New York Mag

72
00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,920
Speaker 1: or The Cut specifically, Like we are fans of New

73
00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:33,920
Speaker 1: York Mag in this house.

74
00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,720
Speaker 4: If there's ever a long read in New York Mag.

75
00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:39,320
Speaker 1: You know that's going to be the kind of piece

76
00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:40,839
Speaker 1: that everyone is talking about for a week.

77
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,320
Speaker 4: And the Humanman article it's no exception.

78
00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:49,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a well written article. It reads like literature,

79
00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:51,600
Speaker 2: Like there were so many sentences that I read.

80
00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:55,440
Speaker 3: It's like that's an amazing sentence. Such a nice read.

81
00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:57,520
Speaker 1: And so for folks who are listening who have not

82
00:04:57,600 --> 00:04:59,159
Speaker 1: read it. I do want to give the caveat that

83
00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,600
Speaker 1: it's very long. I listened to the article and that

84
00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,960
Speaker 1: took about an hour, Like like New York Meg has

85
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,560
Speaker 1: the option to have someone read it, that took about

86
00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:10,599
Speaker 1: an hour. Reading it took a while, so like it

87
00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,360
Speaker 1: is a long read, but I thought it was worth it.

88
00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,640
Speaker 1: And the piece has kind of invited scrutiny, not just

89
00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,240
Speaker 1: into answer Schuberman's personal life, but it's professional work as

90
00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:25,080
Speaker 1: a scientist and a podcaster too. Mike, you are a scientist,

91
00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:29,080
Speaker 1: that's right, and you are a man also, right, So

92
00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,920
Speaker 1: I thought that you actually might be a good person

93
00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,400
Speaker 1: to talk to you about this. Like I said, should

94
00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:38,760
Speaker 1: they upfront that you have not deeply studied Huberman's science

95
00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,160
Speaker 1: or his body of work, but you generally like have

96
00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,120
Speaker 1: a sense of what is and is not okay or

97
00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,880
Speaker 1: ethical in the eyes of science.

98
00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:52,159
Speaker 2: Correct, Yeah, or at least I It's something that I

99
00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,160
Speaker 2: spend a lot of time thinking about and reading about.

100
00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,600
Speaker 3: And you know, who.

101
00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,000
Speaker 2: Ultimately gets to say what is right ethical is kind

102
00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,920
Speaker 2: of an existential question. But yeah, those are things that

103
00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:07,520
Speaker 2: I think about and feel like I have a good

104
00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:09,880
Speaker 2: basis to evaluate things.

105
00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,120
Speaker 1: So initially I actually wasn't even going to get into

106
00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,520
Speaker 1: this on the show, because you know, at first, I

107
00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:17,240
Speaker 1: was sort of seeing a lot of people's reactions to

108
00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:18,880
Speaker 1: the piece, and I thought people were saying, like, Oh,

109
00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,480
Speaker 1: this is just frivolous, this is about his dating life, whatever, whatever,

110
00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:23,880
Speaker 1: And I was like, Oh, we I'm interested in this,

111
00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:25,480
Speaker 1: but we shouldn't talk about it on the podcast.

112
00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:27,560
Speaker 4: But it kind of was a little bit of a

113
00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:28,599
Speaker 4: bug in my brain.

114
00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,839
Speaker 1: And after reading the article, I noticed that I was

115
00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:33,960
Speaker 1: thinking about it quite a lot, and I was sort

116
00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,040
Speaker 1: of trying to put it in context with this current

117
00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:40,200
Speaker 1: political and social and media moment that we're in, where

118
00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,560
Speaker 1: we have the rise of people like RFK, Like I

119
00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,040
Speaker 1: do think we're in this sort of I don't know,

120
00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,720
Speaker 1: pseudo science moment with men.

121
00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:51,680
Speaker 4: You know, a lot of times when.

122
00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,320
Speaker 1: We're talking about medical misinformation, we're talking about women, but

123
00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,320
Speaker 1: I think we talk a lot less about how we

124
00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:56,720
Speaker 1: see it.

125
00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:57,920
Speaker 4: Moving with men.

126
00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,560
Speaker 1: And I thought this article just really kind of got

127
00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,480
Speaker 1: me thinking about that, and it also spoke to something

128
00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,400
Speaker 1: I've been noticing as this trend in podcasting for a while,

129
00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:13,320
Speaker 1: like white guy tech or science podcaster who sort of

130
00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:17,440
Speaker 1: talks to other white guy science or tech podcasters and

131
00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,760
Speaker 1: thus enjoy this kind of like self sustaining vibe as

132
00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:25,400
Speaker 1: we are trustworthy white men of science and technology and knowledge, and.

133
00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,280
Speaker 4: You should listen to us. We're we're very learned men.

134
00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:32,920
Speaker 1: And I really do see Huberman as fitting within that,

135
00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:35,400
Speaker 1: even though I do think that he kind of enjoyed

136
00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:41,040
Speaker 1: maybe a more elevated position within that circle. I know

137
00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,040
Speaker 1: that he's the kind of podcaster who is friendly with

138
00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,560
Speaker 1: folks like Joe Rogan. He goes on Rogan Show all

139
00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:47,920
Speaker 1: the time. Tim Farris, who if you don't know who

140
00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:52,160
Speaker 1: that is, he's another very popular kind of lifestyle entrepreneur,

141
00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:57,280
Speaker 1: guru podcaster, and Lex Breedman, who is the number one

142
00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,920
Speaker 1: tech podcaster in the world who in researching for this episode,

143
00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:08,480
Speaker 1: I realized sometime between last night and maybe four months ago,

144
00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,560
Speaker 1: when I did a podcast episode about him, he blocked

145
00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:12,280
Speaker 1: me on Twitter.

146
00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:14,800
Speaker 3: Oh man, how does that make you feel?

147
00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:19,680
Speaker 1: Bridget honestly confused, because I went and checked, I have

148
00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,000
Speaker 1: never tweeted him. I barely tweet and I did a

149
00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:24,800
Speaker 1: search and I was like, yeah, I've never mentioned him

150
00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,360
Speaker 1: on Twitter. I have mentioned him on the podcast quite

151
00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,600
Speaker 1: a few times, and so I have a difficult time

152
00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,640
Speaker 1: imagining that Lex Readman is listening to this podcast. But

153
00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,200
Speaker 1: you know, maybe he heard what I had to say

154
00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,199
Speaker 1: about his show and.

155
00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:40,840
Speaker 4: Didn't like it and was like, let me just block

156
00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:42,880
Speaker 4: her just emptively.

157
00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

158
00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:48,360
Speaker 2: So maybe he just like did not want to hear it.

159
00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:50,640
Speaker 1: Lex, If you're listening, I'm sorry I made fun of

160
00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:51,280
Speaker 1: your podcast.

161
00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:52,640
Speaker 4: Anyway.

162
00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,720
Speaker 1: I think we're kind of seeing Huberman's status as like

163
00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,400
Speaker 1: a learned public man and the way that we think

164
00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:03,360
Speaker 1: about that status that is typically occupied by a certain

165
00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:04,319
Speaker 1: type of white man.

166
00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:06,920
Speaker 4: I think we're sort of seeing that unravel a little

167
00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:07,680
Speaker 4: bit now with this piece.

168
00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:09,880
Speaker 1: We're seeing people got to peek behind the curtain of that.

169
00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:10,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

170
00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,520
Speaker 2: That New York magpiece certainly made it seem so right.

171
00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,960
Speaker 2: They and they made the point specifically, sort of like

172
00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,719
Speaker 2: the point that you just made that it's it's not

173
00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,520
Speaker 2: just like, look at the messy details of this person's life,

174
00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:30,640
Speaker 2: but really connects with his public persona and I guess

175
00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,200
Speaker 2: brand that he is serving up to people.

176
00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:35,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I guess I would posit that that is

177
00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,080
Speaker 1: why any of this matters, Why anybody should care. People

178
00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:40,800
Speaker 1: might be thinking, well, why should I care how this

179
00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,720
Speaker 1: podcaster treats the women in this personal life. I am

180
00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,679
Speaker 1: not particularly interested in angrew Huberman's personal or romantic life.

181
00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:49,800
Speaker 1: I will in this episode get into some of what

182
00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,679
Speaker 1: the article says about his relationships with women, so folks

183
00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,400
Speaker 1: have that context to understand like why we're talking about

184
00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,560
Speaker 1: this at all. But the reason that I'm interested in

185
00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,160
Speaker 1: talking about him is because there is a ton of

186
00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:04,480
Speaker 1: overlap in Huberman's podcasting and sort of public sciencing work

187
00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,040
Speaker 1: for lack of a better phrase, and technology and like

188
00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,960
Speaker 1: popular attitudes that tech leaders hold. A lot of people

189
00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,720
Speaker 1: in tech are listening to his show, Huberman Lab and

190
00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,360
Speaker 1: using that to guide their own thinking. This absolutely makes sense,

191
00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:19,559
Speaker 1: and a culture where you have this mix of productivity

192
00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,840
Speaker 1: hacks that bleed over into like lifestyle or health hacks

193
00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,520
Speaker 1: like ketto and instrument fasting and pills and potions and

194
00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,840
Speaker 1: powders and quick fixes that promise quick success. Now, this

195
00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,760
Speaker 1: is just my opinion as a casual observer of all

196
00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,720
Speaker 1: of this. I do think there is like a thread

197
00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:41,160
Speaker 1: of fat phobia or like ableism in this, this idea

198
00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,640
Speaker 1: that being physically fit is akin to also being professionally

199
00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,640
Speaker 1: successful and thus being the happiest and best version of yourself,

200
00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,200
Speaker 1: the version of yourself that has the healthiest and most

201
00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,120
Speaker 1: full relationships. It sounds like this is a mindset that

202
00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:58,200
Speaker 1: says all of that starts with being physically fit, physiologically

203
00:10:58,240 --> 00:10:59,160
Speaker 1: fit healthy.

204
00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're right, and I think that is

205
00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:08,480
Speaker 2: an idea that's been repackaged and resold many times over

206
00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:12,760
Speaker 2: the past several hundred years, even before then, probably right,

207
00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:21,040
Speaker 2: like the idea that physical health is tightly linked with

208
00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:29,240
Speaker 2: spiritual health and virtue. That's an idea that grifters have

209
00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:33,360
Speaker 2: been lucratively promoting for a long time.

210
00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:38,400
Speaker 1: So Huberman himself is like really jacked, and I can't

211
00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:40,719
Speaker 1: help but think that that plays into all of this.

212
00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,520
Speaker 1: As a writer, Maria alex Beach put it on Twitter,

213
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,920
Speaker 1: He's the prototype of the American beef female, which we

214
00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,240
Speaker 1: don't associate with scientists. The dissonance between how he looks

215
00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,320
Speaker 1: and what he knows is compelling. He gathers our communal

216
00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:58,040
Speaker 1: preoccupation with health, body, self care, anti aging, longevity, with

217
00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,880
Speaker 1: our respect for those with wisdom and notedge enchanted were

218
00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,200
Speaker 1: easy to hustle. Essentially, he's the worst of us.

219
00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:10,439
Speaker 2: That description from Maria Alex Beach. It makes me think

220
00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:15,280
Speaker 2: of Beast from the Marvel movies, like a big jacked

221
00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,359
Speaker 2: beast of a man who's also a nerdy scienceist.

222
00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:19,559
Speaker 4: It's a type.

223
00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,160
Speaker 1: So Huberman is like the main guy of what's known

224
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:27,240
Speaker 1: as biohacking, or trying to shift or improve your physiology

225
00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,080
Speaker 1: and nervous system to function better. Now, on its face,

226
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:34,199
Speaker 1: this is not a bad thing, like inherently, and in fact,

227
00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,280
Speaker 1: I would actually argue that women are kind of the

228
00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,320
Speaker 1: og biohackers. Like I remember back when a lot of

229
00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,520
Speaker 1: the tech bros were skipping meals and instead drinking that

230
00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:44,880
Speaker 1: drink soilent, which a lot of women were like, Oh,

231
00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,160
Speaker 1: you mean slim fest. It was basically a degendered slim

232
00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,720
Speaker 1: fest that your mom maybe drank in the eighties, you know.

233
00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:55,280
Speaker 1: So I think biohacking is something that I associate with

234
00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,920
Speaker 1: women that has kind of been rebranded as for masculine men.

235
00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, that I think rebranded is a good way to

236
00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:07,040
Speaker 2: put it, because it's a term that I think is

237
00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:13,240
Speaker 2: primarily used to market things. And yeah, the idea that

238
00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,760
Speaker 2: it's you know, I hadn't thought about this, but originally

239
00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:19,000
Speaker 2: was more associated with women.

240
00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:21,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You know.

241
00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:24,640
Speaker 2: Even back in the early twentieth century, women were talking

242
00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:28,080
Speaker 2: about the timing of menstrual cycles to avoid unintended pregnancies

243
00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,600
Speaker 2: and speculating about a pill that might someday allow women

244
00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:36,599
Speaker 2: to avoid them altogether, right, like biohacking exactly.

245
00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,800
Speaker 1: But the biohacking space has kind of been taken up

246
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,840
Speaker 1: by a real masculine energy, which again I think makes

247
00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,839
Speaker 1: sense in this social media climate where people are always

248
00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:47,680
Speaker 1: talking about.

249
00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:49,800
Speaker 4: You know, high value men and low value men.

250
00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,560
Speaker 1: There is a ton of overlap between the biohacking space

251
00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,319
Speaker 1: and just a real toxic brand of masculinity.

252
00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,719
Speaker 4: But in general, I think that men have.

253
00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:01,640
Speaker 1: Kind of been an untapped market when it comes to

254
00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:05,679
Speaker 1: stuff like lifestyle and diet advice. As women, I can

255
00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:07,720
Speaker 1: tell you we are we have been inundated by that

256
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,480
Speaker 1: kind of junk since we were children, so we have

257
00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:11,320
Speaker 1: a good sense of it.

258
00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:12,800
Speaker 4: There's a lot of it out there that is directed

259
00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:13,360
Speaker 4: towards us.

260
00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,480
Speaker 1: I think that men, it's just a different market and

261
00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:18,800
Speaker 1: maybe a little bit of an untapped market when it

262
00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,760
Speaker 1: comes to lifestyle and diet advice, specifically for men.

263
00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:23,960
Speaker 4: So when someone like Huberman comes along.

264
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:28,200
Speaker 1: And has this different vibe of lifestyle and diet advice

265
00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,840
Speaker 1: for men, one that sort of gives the perception as

266
00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,360
Speaker 1: being rooted in science, not just toxic masculinity. Of course

267
00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,520
Speaker 1: it takes off. Huberman emerges in twenty twenty one as

268
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:43,360
Speaker 1: this kind of kinder, gentler, less BROI version of biohacking. However,

269
00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,880
Speaker 1: as Jonathan Jerry, science communicator with the Office of Science

270
00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,280
Speaker 1: and Society at McGill University puts it, Huberman presents the

271
00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,840
Speaker 1: same kind of stuff, just in a less broy less

272
00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:58,280
Speaker 1: masculine package. Jerry writes, even though this podcast is firmly

273
00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,680
Speaker 1: rooted in the masculine space of body optimization that has

274
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,800
Speaker 1: grabbed hold of large swaths of the tech sector, hure

275
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,240
Speaker 1: men is a lot less BROWI than his fellow influencers.

276
00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,080
Speaker 1: There's a real gentleness and care to his delivery. The

277
00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,440
Speaker 1: packaging is less aggressive, but the content does not stray

278
00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,440
Speaker 1: far from Silicon Valley's love affair with the tweaking of

279
00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,560
Speaker 1: healthy human biology. And to add to that, I'll just

280
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,880
Speaker 1: say it, in my opinion, I think a lot of

281
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,120
Speaker 1: men in this space might just have issues with women.

282
00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,800
Speaker 1: I think a lot of them maybe don't respect women

283
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,400
Speaker 1: that much. I think they maybe don't see women as equals.

284
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:35,840
Speaker 1: I think they maybe don't really value what women have

285
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,200
Speaker 1: to say, how women think, and so I think in

286
00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:43,240
Speaker 1: that context, both professionally and maybe personally, it maybe does

287
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,360
Speaker 1: kind of matter how somebody like Andrew Huberman treats women.

288
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,920
Speaker 1: Like to me, as you said, this is so much

289
00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,160
Speaker 1: more than a look how messy this guy's personal life is,

290
00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,880
Speaker 1: let's all got at it story. It's a story that

291
00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,320
Speaker 1: maybe answers some of the very long held criticisms of

292
00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,400
Speaker 1: Andrew hu Erman's podcast, like that he barely features any

293
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,400
Speaker 1: women experts, for one, and it poses questions about what

294
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,760
Speaker 1: happens when people who have expertise in one area of

295
00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,160
Speaker 1: study kind of dine out on that and make it

296
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:12,920
Speaker 1: seem like they know what they're talking about when it

297
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,560
Speaker 1: comes to everything. And on top of that, the dangers

298
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,600
Speaker 1: of building your life around the advice of somebody who

299
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,400
Speaker 1: the article suggests we may not even really know. So

300
00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,240
Speaker 1: if you don't listen to Huberman's podcast, you might not

301
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,720
Speaker 1: know this. But lots and lots and lots of people

302
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,760
Speaker 1: deeply subscribe to Huberman's life advice there's a term for

303
00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,960
Speaker 1: it on TikTok. A Huberman husband a man who follows

304
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,760
Speaker 1: Huberman's life advice, and that advice like has them getting

305
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,840
Speaker 1: up before sunrise, has them waiting ninety minutes before having

306
00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:44,920
Speaker 1: their first coffee of the day, you know, has them

307
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,560
Speaker 1: getting like a specific kind of low angle sunlight and

308
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:50,920
Speaker 1: doing a high intensity workout and an ice bath in

309
00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:51,640
Speaker 1: the morning and all.

310
00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:52,040
Speaker 4: Of this stuff.

311
00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,280
Speaker 1: So, if all of these people are building their identities

312
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,760
Speaker 1: around this guy's guidance, which they absolutely are, I do

313
00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,880
Speaker 1: think looking into how he thinks about women is worthwhile.

314
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:06,840
Speaker 1: But I don't think that's a frivolous clickbait dive into

315
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:08,879
Speaker 1: someone's personal life that is really unfair.

316
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,399
Speaker 3: Necessarily, Yeah, I think that's a fair point. I think.

317
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:20,439
Speaker 2: Anybody who positions themselves to a wide public audience as

318
00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,600
Speaker 2: a person who has the answer right, like, who has

319
00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:28,160
Speaker 2: wisdom that should be followed that other people should shape

320
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:33,040
Speaker 2: their lives around, I think it's absolutely appropriate to scrutinize

321
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,040
Speaker 2: their words, their message, and the extent to which their

322
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,520
Speaker 2: personal values live up to what they are publicly espousing.

323
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,199
Speaker 1: So there have been a lot of popular tech voices

324
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,359
Speaker 1: who disagree with you Lex Friedman, for one, says that

325
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,200
Speaker 1: probing into Andrew Hubermant's personal life is an invasion of

326
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,679
Speaker 1: privacy and essentially a hit job, which you know, I

327
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:55,680
Speaker 1: don't know. I can sort of see what they're saying

328
00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:57,880
Speaker 1: in some regards, but I would point to the fact

329
00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:02,960
Speaker 1: that Hubermant's podcast is in part about having healthy relationships

330
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:04,280
Speaker 1: and emotional intelligence.

331
00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:06,040
Speaker 4: So like, if you build an.

332
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,000
Speaker 1: Entire big platform aroount how people should listen to you

333
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,000
Speaker 1: about how to have healthy relationships and a healthy emotionality,

334
00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:15,680
Speaker 1: maybe looking into how you have built relationships and how

335
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,760
Speaker 1: you show up emotionally is fair game. Like on this

336
00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:23,920
Speaker 1: podcast that I host, I intentionally almost never talk about

337
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,439
Speaker 1: my personal relationships on the podcast, So guess what, Like,

338
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,800
Speaker 1: nobody's digging into my personal relationship history because I'm not

339
00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,200
Speaker 1: saying listen to me, and when it comes.

340
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,760
Speaker 4: To personal relationships, it never comes up. So like, I

341
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:37,320
Speaker 4: do kind of feel like, if you build an.

342
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,720
Speaker 1: Entire platform that it's about listening to you and modeling

343
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,840
Speaker 1: after what you say, it does seem kind of fair

344
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:44,840
Speaker 1: to me to look into it.

345
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:47,840
Speaker 4: And if you don't want people looking into it, you

346
00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:52,960
Speaker 4: don't have to build that kind of platform.

347
00:18:53,119 --> 00:19:05,240
Speaker 5: Let's take a quick break enter.

348
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:10,040
Speaker 1: Back, and I will guess I would say that beyond

349
00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,840
Speaker 1: his dating life, this piece is really looking at the

350
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,239
Speaker 1: values of this person who has risen to be one

351
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:19,359
Speaker 1: of the country's biggest pop scientists, who specifically has become

352
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,879
Speaker 1: a guru to others. So like, if this person is

353
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,399
Speaker 1: a guru to millions of people, it matters. If this

354
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,200
Speaker 1: person is also a liar, it matters if this person

355
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:30,760
Speaker 1: is also a grifter. Here's how the New York magpiece

356
00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,879
Speaker 1: puts it. Huberman sells a dream of control down to

357
00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,119
Speaker 1: the cellular level. But something has gone wrong in the

358
00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,159
Speaker 1: midst of immense fame. A chasm has opened between the

359
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,720
Speaker 1: podcast or preaching dopominergic restraint and a man with new

360
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,639
Speaker 1: found wealth with access to a world unseen by most professors.

361
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,280
Speaker 1: The problem with the man who is always working on

362
00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,040
Speaker 1: himself is that he may also be working on you.

363
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:54,399
Speaker 3: Dun, dun, dun.

364
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,800
Speaker 1: So let's get into exactly what is in this article.

365
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,400
Speaker 1: The majority of this piece and the the messiest bits, frankly,

366
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,840
Speaker 1: are about his chaotic romantic life. Basically, Huberman is accused

367
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:07,840
Speaker 1: of dating at least six women at the same time,

368
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,320
Speaker 1: all while giving the women the impression that they are monogamous.

369
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,520
Speaker 1: He maintains this via a very elaborate system of deception

370
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:16,960
Speaker 1: and lives. The women are all kind of like him,

371
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,119
Speaker 1: They're all very health conscious. They're all described as the

372
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,399
Speaker 1: kind of people who are really particular about what they

373
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,159
Speaker 1: put in their body. So because they were all told

374
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,320
Speaker 1: that they were exclusive with Huberman, they all had unprotected

375
00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,120
Speaker 1: sex with him, not being told that he was also

376
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,120
Speaker 1: having unprotected sex with a lot of other women at

377
00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:36,399
Speaker 1: the same time. You know, these women were living this

378
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:40,119
Speaker 1: kind of intentional lifestyle that he preaches on the show,

379
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,280
Speaker 1: and here is Andrew, in my opinion, kind of sabotaging

380
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,320
Speaker 1: that by depriving them of the ability to make health

381
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,720
Speaker 1: choices for their own bodies through deception. Like, I don't

382
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,680
Speaker 1: think that is a frivolous thing for anybody to be doing,

383
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,359
Speaker 1: let alone a scientist whose whole thing is you should

384
00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 1: be really mindful about what you put in your mind

385
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,440
Speaker 1: unless that thing you're putting in your body is me.

386
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, earlier on you asked about ethics, and you know,

387
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,760
Speaker 2: it's a complicated thing for anyone to know what is

388
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:15,440
Speaker 2: ethical or not. But it's also like not that complicated

389
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,959
Speaker 2: in some ways. And if you want a big, bright

390
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,160
Speaker 2: red warning flag that an ethical boundary is being crossed,

391
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 2: just keep an eye out for deception. Right, Like, if

392
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 2: there's deception happening, you should really question whether what's going

393
00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:38,280
Speaker 2: on is ethical. Yeah, So that's like that feels like

394
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:42,600
Speaker 2: a pretty strong line here that that has been crossed.

395
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 1: Well, according to these women in this article, there was

396
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 1: a lot of deception going on. Let's get into it. Basically,

397
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:53,680
Speaker 1: he was not treating these women with respect, to say

398
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 1: the least. So here's a couple of bits from the

399
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,240
Speaker 1: article that really drive that point home. It is suggested

400
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:00,920
Speaker 1: that he may have given at least one of these

401
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:05,880
Speaker 1: women an std HPV. Specifically, in twenty twenty one, one

402
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,720
Speaker 1: woman tested positive for a high risk form of HPV,

403
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,920
Speaker 1: one of the variants linked to cervical cancer. I had

404
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 1: never tested positive, she says, and had been tested regularly

405
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 1: for ten years. A spokesperson for Huberman says he has

406
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,240
Speaker 1: never tested positive for HPV. According to the CDC, there

407
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 1: is currently no approved test for HPV in men. When

408
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 1: the woman brought this up, she says that Andrew told

409
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 1: her that you could contract HPV from many things. I'm

410
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 1: sure he did say that, Yeah, maybe you gotta have

411
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:34,920
Speaker 1: a toilet seat.

412
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 4: Maybe I don't know.

413
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know what you do.

414
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,360
Speaker 1: So there's one woman who has kids from a previous relationship,

415
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 1: and she says that Huberman fixated on this and that

416
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,359
Speaker 1: it's something they thought about a lot. At one point,

417
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 1: she says that he told her that being in a

418
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 1: relationship with her was like bobbing for apples in feces.

419
00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:00,440
Speaker 1: Apparently things only got worse when they moved in together.

420
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,400
Speaker 1: Sarah was, in fact changing. She felt herself getting smaller,

421
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,919
Speaker 1: constantly appeasing. She apologized again and again and again. I

422
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 1: have been selfish, childish and confused, she said. As a result,

423
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 1: I need your protection. A spokesperson for Huberman denies Sarah's

424
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 1: accounts of their fights, denies that his rage intensified with cohabitation,

425
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,200
Speaker 1: denies that he fixated on Sarah's decision to have children

426
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 1: with another man, and denies that he said that being

427
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 1: with her was like bobbing for apples in feces. Which

428
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,360
Speaker 1: side note, If somebody that I am in a romantic

429
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,840
Speaker 1: relationship with ever tells me that being with me is

430
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 1: like bobbing for apples, and feces. I have every bit

431
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 1: of information I need about how this person feels about me.

432
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: There is no other piece of clarifying information or context

433
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 1: that is needed for me to understand how they feel

434
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:42,239
Speaker 1: and what's going on.

435
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 2: It's also such a strange phrase, like I have to

436
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 2: imagine that it was said in anger, Like he was

437
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 2: probably pretty mad when he said that. It's that sort

438
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 2: of thing you say when you're feeling great.

439
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,960
Speaker 1: You think he said it as like pillow talk, a

440
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 1: sweet whisper.

441
00:23:57,920 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 2: I don't. I think he probably said it what he

442
00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 2: was mad. But to be so mad to say something

443
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,640
Speaker 2: like that and then use the term feces. There are

444
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 2: so many other words in the English language that align

445
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 2: more with like emotions of anger and rage than feces.

446
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 2: So it's like this weird artificial layer of like restraint

447
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 2: or scientific jargon to like put a clean face on

448
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 2: just really saying a terrible thing to a woman.

449
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:31,400
Speaker 4: Well.

450
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 1: When asked about that comment, a spokesperson for Huberman said, quote,

451
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 1: doctor Huberman is very much in control of his emotions.

452
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: Which if there's ever a situation in my life where

453
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,439
Speaker 1: a spokesperson has to be telling the public that bridget

454
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 1: Todd is very in control of her emotions.

455
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 4: I don't want to know what's going on. Woof.

456
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's hope it doesn't come to that.

457
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 1: So apparently Hubert was actively undergoing IVF with this woman

458
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: while also maintaining other relationships behind her back, a point

459
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: that he doesn't even really disagree with. He disputes that

460
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 1: they were trying to start a family together, but his

461
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: spokesperson clarified that they did not want to try for

462
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 1: a baby together, that he quote decided to create embryos

463
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 1: by IVF. I don't know how that is different than

464
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 1: intending to sort of family with her. I guess like

465
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 1: that specific point is important to him in some way.

466
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: I don't know how that it's like that claim is

467
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: not really in dispute, but like it's important to him

468
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 1: to be like, oh, we didn't want a baby, we

469
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: were just doing IVF.

470
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 2: There seems to be some like weird feelings around children

471
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 2: going on with that whole story around that woman, Like

472
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 2: the idea that a major source of friction in their

473
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 2: relationship was that he disapproved of her decision to have

474
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 2: kids with a different man before they ever met. That

475
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:55,959
Speaker 2: just feels kind of weird.

476
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, so if you've ever been played maid by a player,

477
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 1: This next one is going to sound real familiar to you.

478
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 1: Huberman relied on pretty sexist and misogynistic tropes about women

479
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: being crazy to keep the women from finding out about

480
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: each other. So the piece reads, whenever Sarah had suspicions

481
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,919
Speaker 1: about Andrew's interaction with another woman, he had a particular

482
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: way of talking about the woman in question.

483
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 4: She says.

484
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,640
Speaker 1: He said the women were stalkers, alcoholics, and compulsive liars.

485
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: He told her that one woman tore out her hair

486
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 1: with chunks of flesh attached to it, a story like

487
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 1: that's gotta be true. He told her a story about

488
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 1: a woman who fabricated a story about a dead baby

489
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 1: to quote entrap him. A spokesperson for Huberman denies the

490
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 1: account of the denigraation of women and the dead baby

491
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: story and says that the hair story was taken out

492
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 1: of context. So curious to know the actual What is

493
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 1: that story in context?

494
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 2: You know how women are always ripping their hair out

495
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 2: with chunks of their own flesh?

496
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 3: You know how women are.

497
00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 1: Bitches me crazyes be tearing up on some hair with

498
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 1: flesh attach literally just like raving lunatics.

499
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 3: All the time.

500
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: Most of the time, Sarah believed him. The women were

501
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 1: probably crazy. He was a celebrity, he had to be careful.

502
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 4: So this is something that I have learned from like

503
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 4: to not just trying to be like a relationship guru.

504
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: But any man who tells you that, like, oh, there's

505
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,120
Speaker 1: just a bunch of crazy women in my orbit, every

506
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: all the women around me are crazy, that man is

507
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: a liar.

508
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 4: Like that man is not telling the truth. That man

509
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 4: is a liar. That is like one of my like

510
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 4: deeply held red flags and life. Because even if that

511
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 4: were true, what's going on with you?

512
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 1: That you just are the kind of person who like

513
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: all these crazy women diplock to you? Like that doesn't

514
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: even if that was true, which it almost which I

515
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 1: think it almost never is, even that is not great.

516
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 2: It only holds up if one has a worldview that

517
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 2: all women are crazy.

518
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 3: Right.

519
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 2: It's not that I have created this social dynamic where

520
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,120
Speaker 2: I'm surrounded by crazy women. Just all women are crazy

521
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 2: and they can't help but be attracted to me, you

522
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 2: know how I am. So that's where we're at. I'm

523
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 2: just surrounded by all these crazy women. That's That's the

524
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 2: way that makes sense.

525
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 4: Yes, I am.

526
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: I am the healthy, normal, normal one and all these

527
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: women you know how women are. This reminds me so

528
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 1: much of a story from my personal life involving friends,

529
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,120
Speaker 1: where there was a friend breakup and.

530
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 4: Between a man and a woman, and the woman her.

531
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 1: Account was like, very specific, she had so many details.

532
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: He did X Y Z to me, he did this offense,

533
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 1: this offense on that day, this offense, and then his

534
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 1: account was like she was crazy.

535
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 4: Like that was like that was the hold, like like

536
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 4: she had a.

537
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,959
Speaker 1: Dossier of his specific wrongdoings and he was just like,

538
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: she crazy.

539
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 4: So this is another pretty common thing. I think.

540
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: Huberman apparently had a type. He went after these dynamic, assertive,

541
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: confident women, and then he wanted these women to be

542
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: kind of submissive to him him. The piece reads multiple

543
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: women recall him saying he preferred the kind of relationship

544
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: in which the woman was monogamous but the man was not.

545
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: He told me, says Mary, that what he wanted was

546
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: a woman who was submissive, who he could slap on

547
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: the ass in public, and who would be crawling on

548
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: the floor for him when he got home.

549
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 4: A spokesperson for Huberman denies this. Also.

550
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: I feel for this poor spokesperson who was like doctor

551
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: Huberman never said he wanted a woman who would be

552
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: crawling on the floor for him when he got home.

553
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 2: I am curious about the spokesperson because they're quoted so

554
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 2: many times in this article, and I mean, I don't

555
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 2: have the sense. I guess I don't really know how

556
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 2: big his operation is, but like I kind of get

557
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 2: the sense that a lot of these guys don't have

558
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 2: like huge PR teams, So like, who is this spokesperson?

559
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 2: What were they doing before they woke up to find

560
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 2: themselves in this maelstrom of.

561
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 3: Allegations to deny well.

562
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 4: Not responding in real time.

563
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 1: I can tell you that because the person who wrote

564
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 1: this article for New York mag says that they gave

565
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: Humorman's team two days to read the full thing and

566
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: respond to any of the allegations, and they basically like,

567
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: this is what they got. So, you know, curious to

568
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: me too. So one other thing to note about the

569
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: way that he treats the women is that he juggled

570
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: them in this way that is kind of weirdly almost impressive.

571
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: Here's one passage. There was a day in Texas when

572
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: after Sarah left his hotel Andrew slept with Mary and

573
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: texted Eve. They found days in which he would text

574
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: nearly identical pictures of himself to two of them. At

575
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: the same time, they realized that the day before he

576
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 1: had moved in with Sarah and Berkeley, he had slept

577
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: with Mary, and he also had been with her in

578
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: December twenty twenty three, the weekend before Sarah caught him

579
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: on the couch with a sixth woman.

580
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 4: They realized.

581
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: On March twenty first, twenty twenty one, a day of

582
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: admittedly impressive logistical jiu jitsu, while Sarah was in Berkeley,

583
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: Andrew had flown Mary from Texas to La to stay

584
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: with them into Panga. While Mary was there, visiting from

585
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: thousands of miles away, he left her with his dog, Costello.

586
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 4: He drove to a coffee shop where he met They

587
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 4: had a serious.

588
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: Talk about their relationship. They thought they were in a

589
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: good place. He wanted to make it work.

590
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 4: Phone died.

591
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 1: He texted Mary, who was waiting back at the place

592
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: into Panga, and later to Eve, thank you for being

593
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: so next level gorgeous and sexy.

594
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 4: My god, this sounds stressful.

595
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 2: It does, and it truly is impressive. To balance all

596
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 2: of this and make it all work. I think the

597
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 2: most shocking thing in this is that he like he

598
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 2: flew this woman from Texas to La to be with him,

599
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 2: left her to watch his dogs, or he could go

600
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 2: meet up with another woman, did not have sex with

601
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 2: that woman, just had a very long, serious talk about

602
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 2: their relationship.

603
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: Have you ever seen that episode of Seinfeld where George

604
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: wants to get He's dating two women and he's trying

605
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 1: to like get them both to break it off because

606
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 1: it's too much work and neither of them will do it,

607
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: and so he's just trying to like balance these two relationships,

608
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: and he finds himself being like, oh, I thought, like

609
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: I'm seeing god Spell with one and going ice skating

610
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: with the other, And Jerry's like, which is wish? And

611
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: He's like, doesn't matter. That's what I feel like is

612
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: going on here. It would be so much easier to

613
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: just be honest with all of them, be like, listen,

614
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: I'm dating all of you.

615
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 4: Either you're down with it or you're not.

616
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: Like maintaining the deception in the ruse sounds like it

617
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: is so stressful that I cannot imagine it is more

618
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: satisfying than this being like openly, ethically non monogamous with

619
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 1: all of them.

620
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true.

621
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 2: He's a famous, smart, good looking, wealthy guy. If he

622
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 2: just wanted to have a bunch of open relationships with

623
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 2: hot women, he could probably accomplish that, right.

624
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 4: I think so.

625
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 1: But that's what I'm saying, Like, I don't I think

626
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: that he could have that if you wanted that easily.

627
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 4: I don't think he wants that. I don't think. I

628
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 4: don't think it's about that. I think that it's about.

629
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: Control and feeling like I am a I am like

630
00:32:53,560 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: an optimized, smart guy who was able to stay one

631
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: step ahead of all of these women, which I know

632
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: he fucking wasn't, But like, I think that's part of it.

633
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: I think the control and the deception is part of it,

634
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: because he could easily have that if you wanted that.

635
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 1: I also think, like, and this just just like what

636
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: I've seen from being in relationships. I do think there's

637
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: a kind of person who likes the idea of having

638
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: open relationships with people where everybody is on the up

639
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: and up and knows what's going on, while simultaneously liking

640
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 1: the idea of like settling down, starting a family, doing

641
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: IVF like he wouldn't be the first person who maybe

642
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: has conflicted desires at the same time. Like that, that's

643
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 1: not like difficult for me to imagine.

644
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 2: That makes a lot of sense. And you know, in

645
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 2: his mind he's smart enough to have it all right,

646
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 2: Like yeah, the idea that we all have conflicting desires

647
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 2: one a lot of things, but have to make trade

648
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 2: offs because you can't have it all. It is seductive

649
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 2: to think that maybe you could have it all. All

650
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 2: you need to do is be sufficiently good at lying.

651
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, And like again, I think this is all part

652
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: of his the ethos that he preaches that you can

653
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: hack yourself. There's some sort of like way to gamify life.

654
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 1: In this way, you can gamify life that you can

655
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 1: have a series of fulfilling sexual and romantic relationships with

656
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: a bunch of women and also settle down and have

657
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 1: that woman be monogamous to you and like have your kid.

658
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: I think that he's I think that I don't think

659
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: that the way that he is treating these women is

660
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: completely removed from the ethos that he preaches on the show.

661
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 4: I think they are connected and that is why.

662
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 1: And it's interesting to dive into how these women do

663
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 1: say that he showed up. So these women all found

664
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: out about each other through Instagram, which, again I don't

665
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: want to sound like I'm giving romantic advice, but some

666
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: advice I do have is that if you are someone

667
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 1: who is like live and foul, I guess I'll say

668
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: you can't have Instagram.

669
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 4: If you are someone who is like, like.

670
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 1: Doing something in a relationship that you know you're not

671
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:11,720
Speaker 1: supposed to be doing, you can't have an iPad.

672
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 4: You can't have it. You can't have Instagram.

673
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,879
Speaker 1: You need to be really careful about how you show

674
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 1: up digitally because that's how they get you.

675
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 3: Wait, you can't have an iPad if you are.

676
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:20,839
Speaker 4: A serial cheeter.

677
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: iPads like you know, you're texting on your phone, some

678
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: setting is trip that you forgot about and there's now

679
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,919
Speaker 1: it's on the iPad that's back at your apartment. I'm

680
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: just saying, like, if you are someone who is showing

681
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 1: up in relationships in a certain kind of way and

682
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 1: people don't and the other person is not aware of that,

683
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 1: and that is a deception that you are trying to

684
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 1: like juggle and maintain. Technology is something you have to

685
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 1: be extra special careful about, and it sounds like he

686
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: was not extra special careful about it.

687
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,879
Speaker 2: Listeners, thank you for joining us on how to Cover

688
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 2: your tracks with Bridget Todd.

689
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 4: I mean this is just like it's twenty twenty four.

690
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 4: If you're gonna be if you're gonna be doing it.

691
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: Like also, Huberman, I feel like no one is better

692
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 1: at navigating Instagram than women, right, Like I have told

693
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: my friends like, oh, I want to find so and so.

694
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: They've got them pulled up in a minute. They're like,

695
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 1: cur he is, here's everybody he's ever known, here's everything

696
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 1: about him. He went to Cabo last week.

697
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 4: Like, here's his aunt.

698
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 1: Like I think that Huberman thought he was smarter than

699
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: all of these women. And nobody is smarter than a

700
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: group of like confident, poised, self assured women who are

701
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 1: good at Instagram. Nobody is smarter, Like, I don't care

702
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: how many degrees you have, I don't care if you're

703
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 1: at Stanford. You are not smarter than a group of

704
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: women who have Instagram.

705
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 2: Not gonna argue. I feel like a little intimidated.

706
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 1: Frankly, yeah, I'll find out something about you, Mike, you

707
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: better watch out. So basically, one of these women noticed

708
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,800
Speaker 1: that another woman was like constantly watching her Instagram story

709
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 1: but never commenting, and just like lurking, she realized that

710
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 1: this woman also was followed by doctor Huberman, and so

711
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 1: eventually she just DM her and said, is.

712
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 4: There anything that you'd rather ask me directly?

713
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: Which I think that is such a baller move, and

714
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 1: I just think it goes to show like he tried

715
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 1: to put all this like sexist, misogynistic junk in these

716
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 1: women's heads to keep them thinking that like all of

717
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 1: the other women were just like jealous stalkers, and it

718
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 1: didn't work. These women all join a group chat together.

719
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 1: They start comparing timelines. That's when they realized always playing

720
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 1: all of us. But peace actually ends on kind of

721
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: a sweet note. These women all become friends. They have

722
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: a very active group chat, which again it just goes

723
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 1: to show like, if you're gonna pull this shit, don't

724
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 1: pull it with a bunch of smart, confident women. They'll

725
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: just get to the bottom of it together and join

726
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: forces and then like you will be a forever running

727
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 1: joke in their group chat forever. The women in the

728
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 1: they have this active group chat to this day. They

729
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: send pictures of each other's pets to each other, and

730
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 1: they used the reply that they say that Andrew would

731
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: you who whenever they would send him racy picts, which

732
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 1: is mmmmm.

733
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the article does end in a really surprising way.

734
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 2: It's like this group of women became friends and they're

735
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 2: all doing fine, which I think makes this story a

736
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 2: little bit different than some others where it's like powerful

737
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 2: influential man, you know, has problems with women.

738
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 3: Right when those stories break, often.

739
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:34,720
Speaker 2: There's some kind of like allegations of abuse of some kind,

740
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 2: or there's like a lawsuit of some kind. It doesn't

741
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 2: sound like these women are seeking any kind of like

742
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,320
Speaker 2: restitution or really anything.

743
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 5: There.

744
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 3: It just seems like they were more than happy to

745
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 3: talk to this reporter.

746
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:49,839
Speaker 1: And that's something that I want to talk about because

747
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 1: if I were to say the thing that the so

748
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: wanted this article, I think these women are trying to

749
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: say this person that millions of people have held up

750
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 1: as a guru, his the values that he preaches the

751
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 1: show are not the values that he lives by in

752
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 1: his actual life. Like I would say that it's a

753
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 1: bit subtle, but I think that's the So what of

754
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:10,320
Speaker 1: the inclusion of all of these details about his romantic life,

755
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 1: is that humanman is somebody.

756
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 4: Who preaches a really specific like.

757
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 1: Life routine and mindset built around personal discipline and being

758
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 1: really mindful of all the different kinds of things that

759
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: you led into your life that spike dopamine, from coffee

760
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 1: to booze.

761
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 5: Like.

762
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 4: The piece points out that he seems.

763
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: To show disdain for anybody who drinks even a small amount,

764
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 1: but in his personal life he's maybe not practicing a

765
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 1: lot of the kind of personal discipline around things that

766
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 1: spike his dopamine, in this case relationships. Like one of

767
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,439
Speaker 1: the women says that he told her that he thought

768
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 1: he was a love addict. So you have this guru

769
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: preaching and ethos around being mindful about what you led

770
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: into your physical orbit while also like binging on women

771
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 1: and relationships and not being forthcoming about it. That kind

772
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,360
Speaker 1: of makes his whole body of advice. I guess it

773
00:39:58,400 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: kind of calls it into question.

774
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean we can even zoom out another

775
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:07,320
Speaker 2: level from Huberman in particular to just like gurus in general.

776
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 2: It's a pretty well worn trope, almost a cliche that

777
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 2: you know, some guru who has the answer, who is

778
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 2: preaching restraint and control, is sleeping with a bunch of

779
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 2: women who follow his advice tail.

780
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 4: As old as time.

781
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 1: So this is how he's alleged to have treated women

782
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: that he is romantically and sexually involved with in the piece.

783
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 1: But and this is something I don't feel like has

784
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 1: gotten enough attention. This kind of casual lack of respect

785
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: for women seems to bleed over into his professional life

786
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,919
Speaker 1: as well. There is this anecdote where he reached out

787
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 1: to a woman scientist about collaborating together. They send it

788
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 1: time to meet. Huberman doesn't show. This is a real

789
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 1: theme in the piece. Huberman like making plans with men

790
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 1: and women and then just flaking and people saying like

791
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:58,359
Speaker 1: he's totally unreliable. So the scientist emails him after he

792
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: cancels on their time to meet.

793
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 4: And says, well, I guess you're not serious.

794
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: About collaborating together, which again I respect that. Like if

795
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: somebody last minute canceling on somebody who is like pretty

796
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: busy and pretty like has a pretty full schedule, I

797
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: could understand why she was like, yeah, I guess you

798
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:20,760
Speaker 1: don't really feel seriously about working together. Andrew Kuberman clearly

799
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 1: felt some type of a way about this. Rather than

800
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: just let it go, he and another male scientist, Stanford

801
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 1: trained psychiatrist Paul Conti, did an episode of Huberman's podcast

802
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: about aggressive drive in which Huberman makes this woman whose

803
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:39,439
Speaker 1: time he wasted the poster child for toxic aggression in

804
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 1: the workplace. He tells the story of her emailing him

805
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: and saying I guess you aren't serious about working together

806
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: and says so to me. Huberman said on the podcast,

807
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 1: that seems like an example of somebody who has a

808
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 1: well strong aggressive drive and when disappointed lashes back or

809
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 1: is passive. There's some way in which this person doesn't

810
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 1: feel good enough, no matter what this person has achieved.

811
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 1: So then there is a sense of the need and

812
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 1: right to over control. Sure, said Huberman. So now we're

813
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,280
Speaker 1: going to work together, right, So I'm exerting significant control

814
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 1: over you, right, And then maybe he's not aware of it.

815
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 1: In this case, Andrew said it was a she. So

816
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: this woman, explained Kanti, based entirely on Andrew's description of

817
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 1: two emails, had allowed her unhealthy quote excess aggression to

818
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 1: be eclipsing the generative drive. She required that Andrew bowed

819
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 1: down before her in service of the ego because she

820
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 1: did not feel good about herself. This conversation extends for

821
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:38,799
Speaker 1: an extraordinary nine minutes, both men egging each other on

822
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: diagnoses after diagnoses salient, Perhaps for reasons other than those

823
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 1: that you identify, we learned that this woman lacks gratitude,

824
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:51,800
Speaker 1: generative drive, and happiness. She suffers from envy, low pleasure drive,

825
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 1: and general unhappiness. It would appear at a distance to

826
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 1: be an elaborate fantasy of an insane woman built upon

827
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 1: a single behavior. At at some point in time, a

828
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: woman decided she did not want to work with a

829
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 1: man who didn't show up, Like, where does this dude

830
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: get off?

831
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 2: It's worth pointing out following that story that his expertise

832
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:18,720
Speaker 2: is in vision, right, Like he's a neuroscience about vision,

833
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 2: So talking about drives like the pleasure drive, aggressive drive,

834
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 2: these are not areas of his expertise, and you know

835
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 2: they're actually closer to my expertise. And a lot of

836
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 2: that stuff is is often like just so stories, right,

837
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 2: Like it's kind of sounds like a common sense idea.

838
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 2: You make up a story that fits this concept that

839
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:47,760
Speaker 2: you've introduced, So yeah, it all makes sense.

840
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the just so story is that can you

841
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 1: believe a woman talk to me like that, Andrew Huberman, like,

842
00:43:55,920 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: I think this guy got that email from this woman scientists,

843
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,359
Speaker 1: and I think it stung more because it came from

844
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 1: a woman, and he's somebody who doesn't respect women, so

845
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 1: we had to like use his massive platform to speculate

846
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,399
Speaker 1: on her like low pleasure drive and stuff, and how

847
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 1: she like needed him to sacrifice his.

848
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 4: Ego and crawl to her and blah blah blah.

849
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 1: Down Like it really is so misogynistic and sexist, and

850
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:23,880
Speaker 1: I think it really feeds back into the way that

851
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 1: these women were saying that he treated them as well.

852
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 2: I'm also not confident that this colleague exists or that

853
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,400
Speaker 2: any of that actually happened. I mean, we have no

854
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 2: evidence that it did other than him saying so it

855
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 2: feels very much like a story that somebody might make up.

856
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 1: To make it to like prop themselves up to talk

857
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: about how everybody else is less than all those and

858
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 1: all those less thands happen to be women.

859
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 3: It fits.

860
00:44:54,800 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 5: More. After a quick break, let's get right back into it.

861
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 1: Another big piece of this that I want to make

862
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,359
Speaker 1: sure is not overshadowed because his piece is largely but

863
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,800
Speaker 1: not entirely, about his romantic issues is how his character

864
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 1: reflects on the work that he puts out on the podcast,

865
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: which is maybe not great. The New York mag Piece

866
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,800
Speaker 1: gets into this, writing Huberman's specialty lies in a narrow

867
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 1: field vision system wiring. How comfortable one feels with the

868
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 1: science propagated on Huberman Lab depends entirely on how much

869
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 1: leeway one is willing to give a man who expounds

870
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 1: for multiple hours a week on subjects while outside of

871
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: his area of expertise. His detractors note that Huberman extrapolates

872
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 1: wildly from limited animal studies, posit certainty where there is ambiguity,

873
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 1: and stumbles when he veers too far from his narrow

874
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 1: realm of study. But even they will tend to admit

875
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 1: that the podcast is an expansive, free or, as he puts,

876
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:01,280
Speaker 1: at zero cost compending of human knowledge.

877
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:03,240
Speaker 4: There are quack guests, but these.

878
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,760
Speaker 1: Are greatly outnumbered by profound, complex, patient and often moving

879
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 1: descriptions of biological process.

880
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 4: So this entire thing.

881
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 1: Has really shined a light on his financial relationship with

882
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:18,839
Speaker 1: supplement companies, namely Athletic Greens which is now called ag One,

883
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,320
Speaker 1: which is a big sponsor of his podcast. He is

884
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: also their scientific advisor. I don't know what that means, Mike,

885
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 1: do you have any idea, Yeah.

886
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 2: That's a reasonable thing for people to be a scientific

887
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 2: advisor to this or that. I'm not going to dig

888
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 2: him for that. That's reasonable, I mean fair. There is

889
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 2: a bit of a potential conflict of interest, like when

890
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 2: he promotes the product on the show, do his listeners

891
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:47,319
Speaker 2: know that if they decide to buy it gets into

892
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 2: some more ethical gray area there. But just being a

893
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 2: scientific advisor that's a reasonable thing.

894
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: Okay, well we'll get into that. So I should say

895
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 1: big caveat. I'm a podcaster. If you listen to this podcast,

896
00:46:58,080 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 1: we obviously you know.

897
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 3: We do, you do eds how we do.

898
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 1: Ass Nobody would accuse us of not doing ass So

899
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:11,760
Speaker 1: I'm not really in a position where I can fault

900
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 1: people for taking money to keep the good folks who

901
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 1: help make their show paid and keep the show going. However,

902
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 1: if you are a scientist and your entire show is

903
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 1: about your expertise as a scientist, I do think there

904
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 1: was a different thing where maybe there should be a

905
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 1: little bit more scrutiny over exactly what you were saying,

906
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 1: like how you were using your position as a scientist

907
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:37,240
Speaker 1: to talk things, especially something that is maybe a bunk product.

908
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 1: AG one is kind of maybe a not so good product,

909
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 1: and that it makes a lot of big claims that

910
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 1: have dubious backing. Here's what the New York mag article

911
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 1: says about Huberman's relationship with ag One. On every episode

912
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 1: of his Zero Cost podcast, Huberman gives a lengthy endorsement

913
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,879
Speaker 1: of a powder formerly known as Athletic Greens, now known

914
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 1: as AG one. It's one thing to hear Athletic Greens

915
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 1: promote by Joe Rogan. It is perhaps another to hear

916
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 1: someone who sells himself as a Stanford University scientist just

917
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:09,320
Speaker 1: back from the lab proclaim that this seventy nine dollars

918
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: a month powder quote covers all your foundational nutritional needs.

919
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:17,359
Speaker 1: In an industry not known for its integrity, AG one is,

920
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 1: according to writer and professional debunker Derek Burrs, one of

921
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: the most egregious players in the space. So I will say,

922
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 1: as a podcaster, one of my pet peeves is podcasters

923
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: who are like, we make this podcast for free.

924
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 4: No, if you have ads you really don't like.

925
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 1: If you are a podcaster who supports your work via ads,

926
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 1: listeners are not listening to that show for free. They

927
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 1: are kind of paying for it via their attention with

928
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 1: the ads, And so I really hate that claim that, like,

929
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 1: it's a free podcast.

930
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 4: I'm making this content free for free. If you have ads,

931
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 4: you're really not. That's really just not true.

932
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's a good system, right The listeners don't

933
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 2: have to pay money. The ads support the show, you know,

934
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 2: they pay us a small amount to make the show.

935
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 1: I feel like listeners probably, I feel like there are

936
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:10,720
Speaker 1: listeners out there who maybe don't think it's a great system.

937
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 4: People are always like, I hate your ads.

938
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 2: Fair but you know they you know, the ads them.

939
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 2: I don't know. I also don't love listening to ads,

940
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 2: but it's kind of the system we got. There's some

941
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 2: others out there love to you know, talk more about it.

942
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 2: But I guess the point I'm trying to make is

943
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 2: that ads aren't inherently harmful. But where it does get

944
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 2: dubious is when it's these health supplements that are sold

945
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 2: as having like health properties that just really are not

946
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 2: backed up by evidence, And it really betrays a lack

947
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 2: of concern for listeners, I think, and as a scientist,

948
00:49:55,760 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 2: for a scientist to shill for nutrition supplements that do

949
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 2: not have a strong evidence backing, in fact, have adous

950
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:09,839
Speaker 2: dubious evidence behind them. And my understanding is that what's

951
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 2: actually in AG one is a proprietary blend, so people

952
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,359
Speaker 2: don't even know. But for a scientist to back that,

953
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,840
Speaker 2: it casts a doubt over everything else they say, or

954
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 2: at least it should, right, Like, apparently that is the

955
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 2: standard of evidence that they need to support a claim, right,

956
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 2: and so that same standard does that same low standard

957
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 2: of evidence apply to all of the scientific claims that

958
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:43,399
Speaker 2: he's making on his show. One would assume it probably does. So, Yeah,

959
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 2: it just really I personally think that for a scientist

960
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 2: to promote dubious nutritional supplements just undercuts everything else they

961
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 2: might have to say about any other topic.

962
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 1: Well, one of my favorite science podcasters, Wendy Zuckerman of

963
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: the Science Versus podcast, which I love the piece, quotes

964
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:05,840
Speaker 1: a time when she called Huberman out on this. She

965
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 1: pointed out that her podcast would never endorse a product

966
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 1: with such a dubious science behind it, and Hubertan said,

967
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:14,919
Speaker 1: that's the good news about podcasts. People can choose which

968
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 1: podcast they want to listen to.

969
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that makes it clear right there makes it

970
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 2: crystal clear how he sees this. His scientific integrity was

971
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 2: being publicly called into question, which is like the worst

972
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,319
Speaker 2: thing that could happen to a scientist. And he responds

973
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 2: by pointing to the popularity of his podcast. Right, he

974
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:32,319
Speaker 2: doesn't even address it. He's just like, well, you know,

975
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 2: people like my show, so I guess that makes it right.

976
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:37,840
Speaker 4: I mean to me, it's like being like, you know

977
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 4: what it is, Wendy. I'm trying to get.

978
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 1: Paid, so I should say I don't know a ton

979
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 1: personally about AG one. I'll well, I read a couple

980
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 1: of really good articles that make a lot of good

981
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 1: points about about AG one. We'll put in the show notes.

982
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 1: One of them is by Jonathan Jerry, that science communicator

983
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 1: from McGill University be quoted earlier. He did are really

984
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:00,120
Speaker 1: great deep die of will put in the show notes

985
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:04,200
Speaker 1: about how dubious AG one is and the entire supplements

986
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: industry is. You know, it's pretty much unregulated, and you

987
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 1: might be thinking, well, supplements might not work, or they

988
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 1: might not do what they say they're going to do,

989
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:15,839
Speaker 1: but it couldn't hurt, right, while using your credentials as

990
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 1: a scientist to point people who are looking for quick

991
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 1: ways to optimize their health down the road to supplements

992
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 1: is not without risk, as dietary supplements are not regulated

993
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 1: as strictly as pharmaceutical drugs and can routinely contain ingredients

994
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,319
Speaker 1: not listed on the bottle or not contain the main

995
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 1: ingredient listed at all, which has been replaced by a

996
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 1: cheaper look alike. Supplements derived by herbs can cause all

997
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:41,400
Speaker 1: sorts of harm, including toxicity to the liver. A recent

998
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:46,320
Speaker 1: paper highlights rising cases of liver injury caused by these products.

999
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 2: And even outside of like liver injury or the supplements

1000
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 2: being toxic in some way, which hopefully is pretty rare,

1001
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 2: I think much more commonly people get harmed by thinking

1002
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 2: this they are protecting themselves in some way when in

1003
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 2: fact they're not. Right, Like, I think it's an idea

1004
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 2: that by having a healthy immune system people will be

1005
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:16,919
Speaker 2: protected against COVID, which is true, but then I think

1006
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:18,839
Speaker 2: that can in a lot of cases show up where

1007
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:23,360
Speaker 2: people will take supplements that they think are super charging

1008
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 2: their immune system in some way and then decline to

1009
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 2: get the COVID vaccine, which is actually demonstrated conclusively by

1010
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 2: evidence to reduce the chance of harm. So there's I

1011
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 2: think there's a lot of opportunity cost that comes from

1012
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:46,760
Speaker 2: this widespread promotion of supplements that don't work.

1013
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:50,240
Speaker 1: Yes, And like, if you have eighty dollars a month

1014
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 1: to spend toward a health intervention, if you're putting that

1015
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 1: toward the thing that doesn't work over the thing that

1016
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:58,919
Speaker 1: maybe does work and has been demonstrated by science to work,

1017
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 1: that is a problem. If he is a scientist, is

1018
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 1: encouraging you to do that. I do think that's a problem.

1019
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:07,440
Speaker 1: And I think especially in the podcast space, like as

1020
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 1: a podcaster, you do have a different relationship to your audience,

1021
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 1: you know. I think that, like it is an intimacy medium.

1022
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 1: It is a medium where people are hearing you in

1023
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 1: an intimate way in your earbuds. So listeners they might

1024
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:22,799
Speaker 1: really have a trust relationship with you. Like I think

1025
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:26,360
Speaker 1: a lot of people really trust Huberman Jerry, that science

1026
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 1: communicator from McGill makes it really clear that a scientist

1027
00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:32,840
Speaker 1: using the medium of podcasting to build trust in people,

1028
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:36,400
Speaker 1: the vast majority of whom are not scientists themselves, only

1029
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,759
Speaker 1: to lead them to a path of supplements that personally

1030
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:43,360
Speaker 1: enriched Andrew Huberman just really isn't cool. Like, it's not

1031
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 1: like we're talking about Joe Rogan who also hawks AG One.

1032
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:51,400
Speaker 1: We're talking about a Stanford scientist. As Jerry writes, inside

1033
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 1: the walls of academia, there are guardrails on a podcast. However,

1034
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:57,879
Speaker 1: anything goes and the credibility of academia goes a long

1035
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:01,200
Speaker 1: way to lend authority to supplement endorsements.

1036
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely true. It's unfortunate.

1037
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the piece by Jerry really is like

1038
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:13,359
Speaker 1: he basically is like, I'm disappointed to see somebody who

1039
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 1: is such a gifted science communicator and like does have

1040
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:20,360
Speaker 1: a very good body of work in his specific lane

1041
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 1: kind of selling that short for a check from the

1042
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 1: supplement industry that is so shady and so not transparent

1043
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 1: and using science to do that. So like, it's not

1044
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 1: like these people are calling him a fraud. They're saying

1045
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:32,920
Speaker 1: the opposite.

1046
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:33,959
Speaker 4: Because you are.

1047
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 1: Somebody who knows what they're doing and is very gifted,

1048
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:39,280
Speaker 1: it is that much more disappointing to see you lowering

1049
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 1: yourself to this.

1050
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely.

1051
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 2: I have not reviewed his work in any sort of detail,

1052
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:48,360
Speaker 2: but I look through where he's publishing. He's publishing in

1053
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 2: like top tier journals like Nature and Neuroscience like this.

1054
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 2: That's you don't get published there if you're doing bad work.

1055
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:03,280
Speaker 2: So clearly he's a talent scientist. Clearly he's very charismatic

1056
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 2: and persuasive and able to speak to lots of people,

1057
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:09,759
Speaker 2: and so it is disappointed to see somebody with those

1058
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:15,400
Speaker 2: talents just use it for personal enrichment at the expense

1059
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:17,479
Speaker 2: of the people who are trusting them.

1060
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 1: So there have been a lot of accusations that his

1061
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 1: podcast is full of pseudoscience, like he uses all the

1062
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:26,279
Speaker 1: right kind of sciences sounding jargon for claims that are

1063
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,320
Speaker 1: maybe dubiously backed up by science. I am not a scientist,

1064
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:30,879
Speaker 1: so I don't really feel able to say. And Mike,

1065
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:33,359
Speaker 1: as you were saying, like you have not actually like

1066
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 1: studied his body of work, right.

1067
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.

1068
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 2: I just kind of reviewed where he was publishing, but

1069
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:43,360
Speaker 2: I didn't click into anything because that's not an area

1070
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:45,760
Speaker 2: that I really have the expertise to even evaluate.

1071
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:48,200
Speaker 1: So let's hear from somebody who does have the expertise

1072
00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 1: to evaluate, and that is doctor Andrea Love, an immunologist

1073
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:55,279
Speaker 1: and a microbiologist who has been like she has been

1074
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:59,320
Speaker 1: debunking Huberman's bad science for a long time on her substack.

1075
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:01,480
Speaker 1: She is not Annie come lately who is jumping on

1076
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: the bandwagon.

1077
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 4: She has been here for a while.

1078
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 1: I get this, like folks should follow her substack and

1079
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 1: follow her on Twitter. I get the sense that she

1080
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 1: is somebody who has been like being like Huberman sucks.

1081
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 1: Huberman sucks for a long time, and now everybody is

1082
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:15,839
Speaker 1: like finally on.

1083
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 4: Her side, and she's like, no, it is my time

1084
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 4: to shine.

1085
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:22,919
Speaker 1: There is no better feeling, Doctor Andrea Love, I hope

1086
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:26,400
Speaker 1: you are like asking in this because when somebody when,

1087
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:29,760
Speaker 1: when when the general public finally crosses over and sees

1088
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 1: what you see? That's how I always spelt about Ellen.

1089
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 1: By the way, I was an Ellen truther for a

1090
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 1: very long time. When the when the public finally got there,

1091
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 1: I was like, yes, let the hate flow through your veins.

1092
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 3: Man, I remember that.

1093
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:43,080
Speaker 2: That was like, I can't remember your time when I

1094
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 2: saw you so happy?

1095
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:46,640
Speaker 4: Thank you.

1096
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 3: So.

1097
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 1: In a piece the Doctor Love wrote for Slate called

1098
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:55,520
Speaker 1: so should You Trust Andrew Huberman, she really breaks it down.

1099
00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 1: She writes, in reality, his podcast is focused on pseudoscience.

1100
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 1: He often makes claims that appears scientific, but lack evidence, plausibility,

1101
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:07,920
Speaker 1: and validity. Pseudoscience presents unsubstantiated conclusions, but it can be

1102
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:11,680
Speaker 1: incredibly hard to distinguish from conclusive evidence. It contains grains

1103
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 1: of truth, but those grains of truth are exaggerated beyond

1104
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 1: the point of usefulness, even so far as to lead

1105
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 1: away from the truth. Huberman fills his podcast with confident

1106
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 1: displays of pseudoscience, top with the appeal to authority he

1107
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 1: garners by regularly repeating his academic credentials to gain your trust.

1108
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 2: Wow, that sounds so similar to the way we talk

1109
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 2: about conspiracy theories.

1110
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 1: I always think of the same thing. So she basically

1111
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 1: accuses Huberman of not carefully or fully citing studies and

1112
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 1: data to make prescriptive recommendations for lifestyle changes. He scherry

1113
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 1: picks weak or irrelevant studies while discarding larger and more

1114
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:50,960
Speaker 1: robust studies that demonstrate something different. If you're not conducting

1115
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:54,880
Speaker 1: research or regularly dissecting scientific studies, this might not be obvious,

1116
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 1: but to scientists it is. And that's something else that

1117
00:58:58,000 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 1: I think is interesting here is that I bet that

1118
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 1: list listening to his show or hearing somebody parrot what

1119
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 1: he says if you are a scientist or a doctor,

1120
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:08,560
Speaker 1: it's probably frustrating as hell. You and I were talking

1121
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 1: about this off Mike, Mike weird thing to say about

1122
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 1: what exactly you think is going on here? Right, So,

1123
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:17,800
Speaker 1: after doing all my research for this episode, I have

1124
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 1: totally changed my mind. I go back to this episode

1125
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 1: that we did early in Tangote's history with a Foma Uzoma,

1126
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: who was formerly a pinterest She developed the platform's first

1127
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 1: ever medical misinformation policy, and in our conversation, she told

1128
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:34,760
Speaker 1: me that it's really not that deep, Like a lot

1129
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 1: of the people who push medical misinformation are just scammers, right,

1130
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 1: They're just using fear or whatever or like junk science

1131
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 1: to get people to give them money for whatever scam

1132
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 1: supplement or scam course they're selling or whatever.

1133
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:51,440
Speaker 4: And I think I'm kind of coming around.

1134
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:53,720
Speaker 1: The fact that maybe Huberman is like a little bit

1135
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 1: of a scammer, like like maybe it's not like, maybe

1136
00:59:57,000 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 1: it's not that deep. He is just like a snake

1137
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:02,520
Speaker 1: oil sale lsman who gets rich from selling snake oil.

1138
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:06,040
Speaker 1: So he is using his scientific credentials to boost that

1139
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:06,680
Speaker 1: snake oil.

1140
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree.

1141
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 2: I think that's a big piece of it here, right,

1142
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 2: Like it's not in dispute that he is aggressively promoting

1143
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 2: supplements that do not have evidence base to demonstrate their effectiveness,

1144
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:24,080
Speaker 2: and he's getting rich off that, right. That's like literally,

1145
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:28,080
Speaker 2: you know, I guess it's not literally, but it is

1146
01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 2: a direct analogy to selling snake oil. Yeah, good old

1147
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 2: fashioned scammer. I do think that he's a little bit

1148
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:39,160
Speaker 2: more interesting or different than a lot of your garden

1149
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 2: variety scammers, just because he's so much more educated and

1150
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:48,840
Speaker 2: is like a bona fide scientist making scientific contributions and

1151
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 2: seems to be a very introspective person. So like, I'm

1152
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 2: just so fascinated the story he tells himself to justify

1153
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 2: selling that oil.

1154
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:06,080
Speaker 1: Well, Andrew Huberman's whole thing is like a storytelling exercise

1155
01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:09,280
Speaker 1: about himself, like a myth making exercise about himself. Like

1156
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:11,440
Speaker 1: the sort of story that he tells about himself is

1157
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:15,520
Speaker 1: that he was a troubled kid. His parents handled his

1158
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:19,560
Speaker 1: divorce in a way that left him neglected and like unparented.

1159
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:22,920
Speaker 1: His parents kind of dispute that, but whatever, and that

1160
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 1: he was sent to sort of a facility for troubled

1161
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 1: youth and that talk therapy is what saved him, and

1162
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:33,920
Speaker 1: he wanted to dedicate his life to like helping others

1163
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:36,920
Speaker 1: because of that, and he got into Stanford despite the

1164
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:39,080
Speaker 1: fact that he was this like troubled youth who was

1165
01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:42,480
Speaker 1: like essentially unparented. So he says, what does seem certain

1166
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:45,160
Speaker 1: is that an adolescence, Andrew became a regular consumer of

1167
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:48,360
Speaker 1: talk therapy. In therapy, one learns to tell stories about

1168
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:51,760
Speaker 1: one's experience. A story one could tell is I overcame

1169
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:55,160
Speaker 1: immense odds to be where I am. Another is the

1170
01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:58,919
Speaker 1: son of a Stanford professor, born at Stanford Hospital, grows up.

1171
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:00,480
Speaker 4: To be a Stanford professor.

1172
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:04,120
Speaker 1: Like I do think that he maybe is somebody who,

1173
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 1: like we all do in certain in certain effects, but

1174
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 1: like gets down on the story that he tells himself

1175
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:13,160
Speaker 1: and that story sort of becomes the truth. And so

1176
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 1: maybe the story that he tells himself, like the story

1177
01:02:15,520 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 1: that I tell myself when I have to do adreads

1178
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 1: is like, if I didn't do these ad reads, the

1179
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 1: people who make my podcast would not.

1180
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:24,400
Speaker 4: Be able to be paid.

1181
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:26,120
Speaker 1: I would not be able to be paid, the show

1182
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:27,600
Speaker 1: would not be able to go on, right, And so

1183
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:30,600
Speaker 1: that's the story I tell myself when I'm doing adreads

1184
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 1: for our sponsors.

1185
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 4: All of whom I love and respect very much.

1186
01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:36,920
Speaker 1: But I think, like that's the story that I have

1187
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:40,000
Speaker 1: to tell myself to feel okay about doing these adreads,

1188
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 1: even though nobody likes ads. I think it's different when

1189
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:46,200
Speaker 1: you are a scientist telling yourself a story that makes

1190
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:49,920
Speaker 1: it okay to use your credentials as a scientist to

1191
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:51,560
Speaker 1: maybe lead people into things.

1192
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:52,040
Speaker 4: That are risky.

1193
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:59,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially when you are publicly preaching introspection and discipline

1194
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 2: and accountability. Those all seem like virtues that maybe he

1195
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:04,439
Speaker 2: should take a deeper look at.

1196
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:07,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is I'm kind of going off script here,

1197
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 1: but like you were saying, how the popular guru who

1198
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 1: doesn't take their own advice and is not living the

1199
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:15,840
Speaker 1: values that they preach in public. That is such a

1200
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:20,040
Speaker 1: well worn thing, that's almost a cliche. At this point,

1201
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 1: I wonder what it is that about Huberman that makes

1202
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:30,200
Speaker 1: it so hard to see this well worn trope playing

1203
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 1: out in before our eyes, because I think that's in

1204
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 1: part kind of what's going on here with Huberman. But

1205
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:37,440
Speaker 1: it's so interesting to me how people are like, but

1206
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:40,560
Speaker 1: he's a scientist, but he's introspective, but he's very thoughtful,

1207
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:43,120
Speaker 1: he's different. Maybe it's just the power of marketing, the

1208
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:46,240
Speaker 1: power how people really want to believe that what he's

1209
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:49,520
Speaker 1: doing is so much different than the doctor oz Is

1210
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:51,840
Speaker 1: of the world because of the way he packages it

1211
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:54,000
Speaker 1: so effectively as being different.

1212
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:55,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

1213
01:03:55,960 --> 01:04:00,440
Speaker 2: I haven't listened to his podcast, but you know, in

1214
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:04,720
Speaker 2: the research for doing this, you know, I read a

1215
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:09,040
Speaker 2: couple of articles that we're talking about it, and all

1216
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:13,040
Speaker 2: of them mentioned when he's interviewing guests or speaking in public.

1217
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:16,919
Speaker 2: You know, it's characterized by humility and kindness and compassion,

1218
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:20,440
Speaker 2: And I could imagine that all of those would be

1219
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:27,080
Speaker 2: things that would disarm a audience and make them feel

1220
01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:31,000
Speaker 2: like the person could be trusted right and feel more

1221
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:34,080
Speaker 2: connected to them, Like humility is super powerful.

1222
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:37,880
Speaker 1: But even that reminds me of the way these women

1223
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:42,600
Speaker 1: say that he used that same kind of language to

1224
01:04:42,680 --> 01:04:43,480
Speaker 1: control them.

1225
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:44,080
Speaker 3: You know.

1226
01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:47,080
Speaker 1: That's sort of like like at one point, when one

1227
01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:49,440
Speaker 1: of the women realizes that he cheated on her, he

1228
01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:52,640
Speaker 1: texts her like something along the lines of I hear you,

1229
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:55,400
Speaker 1: and I'm willing to hear you for as long as

1230
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:59,320
Speaker 1: you need, which, again, it's almost like therapys beak to

1231
01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:02,240
Speaker 1: away with bad behavior, And I wonder if that's part

1232
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:05,560
Speaker 1: of it, like using a certain kind of disarming language

1233
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:10,800
Speaker 1: and disarming presentation and disarming, you know, vibe to really

1234
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:14,920
Speaker 1: effectively trick people into trusting you, and to trick them

1235
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:19,000
Speaker 1: into not seeing what is so obviously in front of

1236
01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:21,760
Speaker 1: their own eyes or or happening in their own ears,

1237
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:23,240
Speaker 1: like I don't need It's like not some of this

1238
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:25,360
Speaker 1: stuff is not in dispute. It's not in dispute that

1239
01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:27,880
Speaker 1: he takes money from supplement companies. It is not in

1240
01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:32,520
Speaker 1: dispute that supplement companies are notoriously not transparent and rely

1241
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:35,760
Speaker 1: on junk science, if any science at all. Those things

1242
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:38,440
Speaker 1: are not in dispute. So the fact that people are like, no,

1243
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:40,600
Speaker 1: he would never it's like he would not dispute that

1244
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:41,400
Speaker 1: is what's happening.

1245
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:42,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good question.

1246
01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:47,440
Speaker 2: What is it about him that makes people like him

1247
01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:49,880
Speaker 2: and want to follow his advice? But clearly he's done

1248
01:05:50,280 --> 01:05:52,640
Speaker 2: very well at it, and I think it is an

1249
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 2: important question for us all to consider. I think part

1250
01:05:56,720 --> 01:05:59,000
Speaker 2: of it's got to be that he's hot, probably helps,

1251
01:05:59,160 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 2: Like he's like.

1252
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 1: Jam glasses, like I don't know, like I think he's

1253
01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:07,080
Speaker 1: someone that maybe a lot of the male listeners in

1254
01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:09,760
Speaker 1: his audience want to see themselves in, Like who would

1255
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:12,560
Speaker 1: not want to be like, Oh yeah, I'm this like jacked,

1256
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:16,200
Speaker 1: ripped guy who has glasses, but it's also a scientist

1257
01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:18,880
Speaker 1: and like can maybe juggle women in an unethical way.

1258
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:22,440
Speaker 1: Like I think that men are identifying with him in

1259
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:24,760
Speaker 1: a certain way and that is maybe making it hard

1260
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:28,920
Speaker 1: for them to see what is happening so plainly, right

1261
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 1: out and open.

1262
01:06:30,200 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a good point.

1263
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:33,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of ways in which the life

1264
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:35,640
Speaker 2: he's leading feels aspirational.

1265
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:37,720
Speaker 4: Mm hmmm, I completely agree.

1266
01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:41,600
Speaker 1: So Doctor Andrea Love her piece just makes him sound

1267
01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:44,400
Speaker 1: like a good old fashioned scammer. Again, I will link

1268
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:46,040
Speaker 1: to it in the show notes who She's definitely read it.

1269
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:48,680
Speaker 1: So she points out that he is somebody who uses

1270
01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:53,600
Speaker 1: dubious science to put people off of accepted medical interventions

1271
01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:57,320
Speaker 1: like fluoride or vaccines, even when there is broad medical

1272
01:06:57,360 --> 01:07:01,120
Speaker 1: consensus about it, in service of suggesting alternative that he

1273
01:07:01,160 --> 01:07:03,920
Speaker 1: has a financial stake in. So doctor Love says that

1274
01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:07,400
Speaker 1: Huberman uses false balance, the fallacy that equal and opposite

1275
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:11,560
Speaker 1: sides always exists. Take his thoughts on fluoride. While fluoride

1276
01:07:11,560 --> 01:07:14,600
Speaker 1: has been used for decades to prevent dental disease, Huberman

1277
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:16,919
Speaker 1: gives the impression that there is an ongoing debate among

1278
01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:19,760
Speaker 1: experts about its use and reasons for his listeners to

1279
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:22,800
Speaker 1: be careful about how much fluoride containing tap water they consume.

1280
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:27,400
Speaker 1: During his Oral Health podcast episode, Huberman undermines consensus data

1281
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:30,640
Speaker 1: on fluoride, endorses fluoride free toothpastes as well as a

1282
01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:34,080
Speaker 1: Yerba mate tea company that uses fluoride free water and

1283
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:36,200
Speaker 1: which he is a business partner of, and cites a

1284
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:39,920
Speaker 1: dentist who spreads fear about fluoride as his expert reference.

1285
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:43,920
Speaker 1: Huberman positions this for his listeners as information to make

1286
01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:46,000
Speaker 1: the best decision, as though we all need to be

1287
01:07:46,040 --> 01:07:47,960
Speaker 1: carefully thinking about our fluoride levels.

1288
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:50,760
Speaker 2: Yeah again cherry picking here. It sounds like he cherry

1289
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:54,320
Speaker 2: picked particular expert who has an axe the grind about

1290
01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:59,800
Speaker 2: fluoride while ignoring the vast majority of dentists who are

1291
01:07:59,840 --> 01:08:04,360
Speaker 2: in consensus that fluoride is positive thing to promote oral health.

1292
01:08:04,600 --> 01:08:06,400
Speaker 1: And when we were talking about as cold and flu

1293
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:08,760
Speaker 1: episode where he was talking about how he doesn't always

1294
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:11,960
Speaker 1: get the flu shot because it is not effective unless

1295
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:14,880
Speaker 1: the shot protects from that exact strain of flu going

1296
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:17,719
Speaker 1: around that year, which is not totally accurate. You were like, well,

1297
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:19,800
Speaker 1: why would he do that? You know, what does he

1298
01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:22,720
Speaker 1: have to gain in discrediting vaccines? And again, if you

1299
01:08:22,760 --> 01:08:26,000
Speaker 1: believe doctor Andrea Love, it comes down to those supplements

1300
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:28,360
Speaker 1: that he sells. Having a paid sponsor is not a

1301
01:08:28,400 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 1: disqualifier in and of itself, she writes, But when your

1302
01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:33,840
Speaker 1: financial conflicts of interest seem to dictate your content, it

1303
01:08:33,920 --> 01:08:38,000
Speaker 1: should be after dismissing legitimate data. In the flu episode,

1304
01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:41,479
Speaker 1: his lengthy quote science backed discussion to prevent colds and

1305
01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:45,840
Speaker 1: flu boiled down to an extended commercial for taking supplements.

1306
01:08:46,240 --> 01:08:48,439
Speaker 1: So all of me has to me wondering, which I

1307
01:08:48,439 --> 01:08:50,240
Speaker 1: think is the point of the New York mag piece.

1308
01:08:50,680 --> 01:08:53,600
Speaker 1: Why do we look to anybody for their life advice? Like,

1309
01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:56,040
Speaker 1: why do we make people into gurus in the first place.

1310
01:08:56,360 --> 01:08:59,639
Speaker 1: It does not surprise me that Huberman really got famous

1311
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:03,120
Speaker 1: famous in the twenty twenty one era of COVID. You know,

1312
01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:06,479
Speaker 1: we were all sort of alone and disconnected and looking

1313
01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:09,439
Speaker 1: for some solution or some antidote to that where you

1314
01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:11,880
Speaker 1: weren't sleeping well, you weren't eating well maybe like the

1315
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:15,040
Speaker 1: vibes were terrible. So in a lot of way, I

1316
01:09:15,080 --> 01:09:18,040
Speaker 1: think the public we were just like easy marks during

1317
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:18,639
Speaker 1: that time.

1318
01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:22,880
Speaker 2: Yep, just a bunch of dupes with money, yeah, looking

1319
01:09:22,920 --> 01:09:26,719
Speaker 2: for a quick fix. Yep, rouge looking for a solution.

1320
01:09:27,320 --> 01:09:27,760
Speaker 4: And you.

1321
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:29,439
Speaker 1: You and I kind of talked about this off mic,

1322
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:33,679
Speaker 1: but it's one of the reasons why like life advice content.

1323
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:37,519
Speaker 1: Like I'm not somebody who really unless I'm really having

1324
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:41,479
Speaker 1: a dark time of desperation, Like, I'm not someone who

1325
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:46,960
Speaker 1: listens to lifestyle or life advice podcasts. I don't like

1326
01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:50,400
Speaker 1: career advice podcasts. I just don't like this idea that

1327
01:09:50,479 --> 01:09:53,840
Speaker 1: one person has a one size fits all solution. This

1328
01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:55,519
Speaker 1: is my opinion. I don't think life works that way.

1329
01:09:55,560 --> 01:09:58,560
Speaker 1: I think people are really complex. People have very complex

1330
01:09:58,840 --> 01:10:01,920
Speaker 1: motivations and design and needs and hang ups. I don't

1331
01:10:01,920 --> 01:10:04,760
Speaker 1: see how a stranger could speak to that in any

1332
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:06,720
Speaker 1: way that is effective. I'm not saying I don't not

1333
01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:09,439
Speaker 1: saying that anybody should like but you're a bad person

1334
01:10:09,439 --> 01:10:11,639
Speaker 1: if you listen to that. I just feel like anybody

1335
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:14,360
Speaker 1: who is like wearing a blazer and crossing their arms

1336
01:10:14,360 --> 01:10:15,000
Speaker 1: and being.

1337
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:17,519
Speaker 4: Like I have the answer. Something in me automatically is

1338
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:18,479
Speaker 4: like suspect of that.

1339
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:22,240
Speaker 2: I one hundred percent agree. Yeah, anybody who says that

1340
01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:26,320
Speaker 2: they have the answer huge red flag. And I'm somebody

1341
01:10:26,320 --> 01:10:30,519
Speaker 2: who loves learning from people. There are so many smart

1342
01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:33,959
Speaker 2: people in the world who have insight, who have wisdom,

1343
01:10:34,439 --> 01:10:40,240
Speaker 2: who talk about interesting philosophical and ethical questions that help

1344
01:10:40,280 --> 01:10:43,160
Speaker 2: me understand the world and help me decide how to

1345
01:10:43,400 --> 01:10:45,719
Speaker 2: live my life. But I feel like there's a very

1346
01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:51,400
Speaker 2: fine line where that crosses over into solutions, and therefore

1347
01:10:51,439 --> 01:10:54,479
Speaker 2: you should do xyz, you should buy this supplement, you

1348
01:10:54,520 --> 01:11:02,040
Speaker 2: should adopt my patented life routine. Once they start hawking

1349
01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:06,400
Speaker 2: a specific solution, that red flag gets a little bit higher.

1350
01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:09,519
Speaker 2: And then when that solution is something that you can buy,

1351
01:11:10,040 --> 01:11:13,640
Speaker 2: it's time for me to walk away.

1352
01:11:14,360 --> 01:11:15,040
Speaker 4: You've lost me.

1353
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:16,360
Speaker 3: You've lost me.

1354
01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:31,840
Speaker 5: Let's take a quick break at our back.

1355
01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:36,559
Speaker 1: I think we're kind of in a golden age of

1356
01:11:37,080 --> 01:11:40,439
Speaker 1: the snake oil salesman who can use digital mediums like

1357
01:11:40,479 --> 01:11:45,400
Speaker 1: podcasts or social media to demonstrate that they have it

1358
01:11:45,439 --> 01:11:47,439
Speaker 1: all figured out, that they had the kind of life

1359
01:11:47,439 --> 01:11:49,360
Speaker 1: that is aspirational that you would want to live. It's

1360
01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:53,439
Speaker 1: basically how MLMs might operate of like, my life looks

1361
01:11:53,479 --> 01:11:54,880
Speaker 1: dope as hell on Instagram?

1362
01:11:55,320 --> 01:11:57,840
Speaker 4: Don't you want to live like I do? If you

1363
01:11:58,120 --> 01:12:00,960
Speaker 4: buy this thing, you can't? And so I think that

1364
01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:02,720
Speaker 4: we're kind of in a golden.

1365
01:12:02,360 --> 01:12:09,559
Speaker 1: Era of coaches and lifestyle gurus and wellness people and

1366
01:12:10,439 --> 01:12:12,960
Speaker 1: people selling courses just like and I'm not saying all

1367
01:12:13,000 --> 01:12:15,519
Speaker 1: of those are are are bunk, because I certainly don't know,

1368
01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:18,439
Speaker 1: but like, I think that we're in an era where

1369
01:12:18,479 --> 01:12:22,200
Speaker 1: people are looking for a solution to the way that

1370
01:12:22,280 --> 01:12:25,599
Speaker 1: things feel right now, and there's always going to be

1371
01:12:25,640 --> 01:12:28,439
Speaker 1: somebody willing to take their money offering that solution, and

1372
01:12:28,479 --> 01:12:32,519
Speaker 1: we got to be extra careful about who and why

1373
01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:35,960
Speaker 1: we elevate to that platform.

1374
01:12:36,600 --> 01:12:38,719
Speaker 2: I think you're absolutely right, And I think that really

1375
01:12:38,840 --> 01:12:44,040
Speaker 2: intersects with the fact that he is a scientist and

1376
01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:47,120
Speaker 2: that you know, speaking from science is part of his

1377
01:12:47,320 --> 01:12:51,200
Speaker 2: brand on the podcast. You know, he's somebody who looks

1378
01:12:51,200 --> 01:12:54,439
Speaker 2: really good on videos, looks good on Instagram, is good

1379
01:12:54,520 --> 01:12:57,559
Speaker 2: at managing social media, can build this following leads this

1380
01:12:57,680 --> 01:13:02,719
Speaker 2: like aspirational, cool looking life, which makes people want to

1381
01:13:02,880 --> 01:13:07,080
Speaker 2: emulate him. And if he's giving advice, it's reasonable to

1382
01:13:07,120 --> 01:13:08,760
Speaker 2: think that, oh, if I take that advice, my life

1383
01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:11,160
Speaker 2: could look like his. So the things that he's saying

1384
01:13:11,320 --> 01:13:14,599
Speaker 2: must be true, because his life looks pretty good. He's healthy,

1385
01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:16,840
Speaker 2: he's wealthy, he's sleeping with a bunch of women. But

1386
01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:20,439
Speaker 2: that's so different from how evidence gets evaluated in science.

1387
01:13:20,479 --> 01:13:24,280
Speaker 2: You look at evidence, you look at multiple studies. Do

1388
01:13:24,320 --> 01:13:28,200
Speaker 2: they agree, do they disagree, Look across the balance of

1389
01:13:28,280 --> 01:13:31,160
Speaker 2: all of the evidence to reach conclusions based on the

1390
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:33,920
Speaker 2: evidence that's there, in a transparent evaluation of the methods

1391
01:13:33,920 --> 01:13:37,080
Speaker 2: that we're used to create those conclusions. It's much more

1392
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:40,280
Speaker 2: boring than an Instagram real or a YouTube video. But

1393
01:13:40,320 --> 01:13:44,280
Speaker 2: that's how scientific conclusions get reached. And I think that's

1394
01:13:44,760 --> 01:13:48,559
Speaker 2: maybe why it's so easy and feel so dangerous for

1395
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:54,800
Speaker 2: people who have scientific authority due to their institutional positions

1396
01:13:55,120 --> 01:13:59,679
Speaker 2: and just take that over to Instagram and popular culture

1397
01:13:59,760 --> 01:14:04,719
Speaker 2: to start dispensing advice that is not within their area

1398
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:05,560
Speaker 2: of expertise.

1399
01:14:06,080 --> 01:14:10,000
Speaker 1: Yes, and I think that, like, that's the real scandal

1400
01:14:10,080 --> 01:14:12,600
Speaker 1: that I think the piece is trying to highlight. The

1401
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:15,439
Speaker 1: scandal is not to me, like how he treated women

1402
01:14:15,479 --> 01:14:18,320
Speaker 1: badly in his personal life. It is that he enjoys

1403
01:14:18,439 --> 01:14:21,800
Speaker 1: this pedestal of like men of science and knowledge and

1404
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:24,960
Speaker 1: enjoys all of the respect that comes with that, while

1405
01:14:25,040 --> 01:14:28,439
Speaker 1: also behaving in ways that are like really small and

1406
01:14:28,479 --> 01:14:31,840
Speaker 1: like maybe unethical and maybe like anti science, Like he

1407
01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:34,240
Speaker 1: wasn't trying to unlock the science of all of.

1408
01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:35,360
Speaker 4: Us living our best lives.

1409
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:38,000
Speaker 1: Like maybe he was a little bit, but it sounds

1410
01:14:38,040 --> 01:14:41,360
Speaker 1: like it was also an enterprise to personally enrich himself,

1411
01:14:41,840 --> 01:14:44,120
Speaker 1: get and control women and have fame.

1412
01:14:44,360 --> 01:14:46,240
Speaker 4: Like I said, small, that's not.

1413
01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:51,320
Speaker 1: A super respectable you know man of science behavior that

1414
01:14:51,479 --> 01:14:56,839
Speaker 1: is like small man driven by desire and vice behavior.

1415
01:14:57,560 --> 01:15:00,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if you were to you know, take

1416
01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:03,960
Speaker 2: a stoic approach to it, one should be leading a

1417
01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:06,320
Speaker 2: virtuous life, and none of those things sound very virtuous.

1418
01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:12,040
Speaker 1: Ultimately, nobody likes to pursue vice and hedonism.

1419
01:15:11,560 --> 01:15:13,920
Speaker 4: And you know, desire more than your girl.

1420
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:17,360
Speaker 1: Right here, So I'm not judging, but to create an

1421
01:15:17,520 --> 01:15:22,240
Speaker 1: entire platform around the importance of discipline and avoiding this

1422
01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:26,160
Speaker 1: and avoiding that while you are privately courting your version

1423
01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:28,040
Speaker 1: of those things yourself. Like, I don't think he's somebody

1424
01:15:28,080 --> 01:15:31,320
Speaker 1: who is like preaching not drinking and then drinking alcohol,

1425
01:15:31,400 --> 01:15:34,120
Speaker 1: but he is somebody who preaches like avoid dopamine and

1426
01:15:34,160 --> 01:15:37,360
Speaker 1: then like clearly has these like dopamine driven relationships with

1427
01:15:37,400 --> 01:15:39,920
Speaker 1: women that are very chaotic based on lies, Like I

1428
01:15:39,920 --> 01:15:43,320
Speaker 1: think that's the scandal. The writer Justin Murphy put it

1429
01:15:43,360 --> 01:15:46,160
Speaker 1: really beautifully on Twitter. He writes, the Huberman story is

1430
01:15:46,160 --> 01:15:49,720
Speaker 1: not altogether trivial. The smartest men and every generation of

1431
01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:53,000
Speaker 1: Western history have generally converged on the idea that knowledge

1432
01:15:53,040 --> 01:15:57,320
Speaker 1: and cultivation involve a certain conquest of the appetites. Obviously,

1433
01:15:57,400 --> 01:16:00,280
Speaker 1: men who are successful economically and socially are need to

1434
01:16:00,280 --> 01:16:03,160
Speaker 1: indulge their appetites, and often do. The story is not

1435
01:16:03,200 --> 01:16:06,559
Speaker 1: surprising or informative if you already had Huberman pegged as

1436
01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:09,840
Speaker 1: playing primarily an economic and social game, the story is

1437
01:16:09,880 --> 01:16:12,479
Speaker 1: surprising and damning if you saw him as playing a

1438
01:16:12,520 --> 01:16:15,840
Speaker 1: game of knowledge and cultivation. It is not therefore a

1439
01:16:15,880 --> 01:16:19,000
Speaker 1: totally vacuous story, as many seem to be saying. In

1440
01:16:19,040 --> 01:16:22,080
Speaker 1: the eyes of any classically educated observer, it is a

1441
01:16:22,120 --> 01:16:26,720
Speaker 1: precipitous fall in the stock price of rationalist, materialist, utilitarian

1442
01:16:26,760 --> 01:16:30,200
Speaker 1: frameworks for living. For many people, Huberman was not just

1443
01:16:30,200 --> 01:16:33,320
Speaker 1: a purveyor of useful information, but an image of wisdom

1444
01:16:33,520 --> 01:16:37,240
Speaker 1: an image of a cultivated man no longer obviously, except

1445
01:16:37,240 --> 01:16:39,519
Speaker 1: for the most naive, you could know everything there is

1446
01:16:39,560 --> 01:16:41,799
Speaker 1: to know about the body and have all the followers

1447
01:16:41,840 --> 01:16:44,120
Speaker 1: in the world and not exceed the wisdom of the

1448
01:16:44,200 --> 01:16:46,760
Speaker 1: average twenty five year old man. The scandal of the

1449
01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:50,080
Speaker 1: story is not Huberman's immorality, which is common and generic.

1450
01:16:50,240 --> 01:16:53,160
Speaker 1: The scandal is ethical. Someone who is famous for having

1451
01:16:53,240 --> 01:16:56,519
Speaker 1: tremendous knowledge of how to live does not himself live

1452
01:16:56,680 --> 01:16:57,800
Speaker 1: in a beautiful.

1453
01:16:57,360 --> 01:16:59,800
Speaker 2: Way common and generic.

1454
01:17:00,479 --> 01:17:01,240
Speaker 3: That's got a sting.

1455
01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:03,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I guess that's the disconnect that, like

1456
01:17:04,200 --> 01:17:07,160
Speaker 1: people want to see Huberman as this learned man of

1457
01:17:07,200 --> 01:17:10,719
Speaker 1: science and knowledge and cultivation which is so high minded

1458
01:17:10,800 --> 01:17:11,640
Speaker 1: and like elevated.

1459
01:17:11,840 --> 01:17:13,519
Speaker 4: In reality, he's trying.

1460
01:17:13,320 --> 01:17:15,200
Speaker 1: To get a check and get his dick wet like that,

1461
01:17:15,400 --> 01:17:18,160
Speaker 1: Like that is like generic and small minded. I can

1462
01:17:18,200 --> 01:17:19,800
Speaker 1: tell you a thousand other men I know who are

1463
01:17:19,840 --> 01:17:21,760
Speaker 1: the same way, trying to get the same shit. It's

1464
01:17:21,760 --> 01:17:24,080
Speaker 1: not like I'm not trying to demonize him for it,

1465
01:17:24,120 --> 01:17:25,960
Speaker 1: but let's call it what it is. And like I

1466
01:17:25,960 --> 01:17:28,960
Speaker 1: think from the article that is like plainly.

1467
01:17:28,479 --> 01:17:29,000
Speaker 4: What it is.

1468
01:17:29,439 --> 01:17:32,960
Speaker 1: And I guess ultimately the question is, like does this matter.

1469
01:17:33,240 --> 01:17:35,479
Speaker 1: Here's where the naric magpiece leaves it. There is an

1470
01:17:35,560 --> 01:17:37,479
Speaker 1: argument to be made that it does not matter how

1471
01:17:37,479 --> 01:17:40,559
Speaker 1: a helpful podcast or conducts himself outside of the studio.

1472
01:17:40,840 --> 01:17:43,840
Speaker 1: A man unable to constrain his urges may still preach

1473
01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:48,640
Speaker 1: dopominergic control to others. Morning Sun still remains salutary. The

1474
01:17:48,640 --> 01:17:51,800
Speaker 1: physiological side employed by this writer many times in the

1475
01:17:51,800 --> 01:17:55,320
Speaker 1: writing of this essay, continues to affect calm. That's one

1476
01:17:55,320 --> 01:17:59,439
Speaker 1: of his trademark tactics is a specific side that's supposed

1477
01:17:59,439 --> 01:18:02,040
Speaker 1: to calm you down. The large and growing distance between

1478
01:18:02,040 --> 01:18:05,040
Speaker 1: Andrew Huberman and the man he continues to be may

1479
01:18:05,080 --> 01:18:07,680
Speaker 1: not even matter to those who buy questionable products he

1480
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:11,160
Speaker 1: has recommended and from which he will materially benefit, or

1481
01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:13,639
Speaker 1: listeners who imagined a man in a white coat at

1482
01:18:13,680 --> 01:18:17,080
Speaker 1: work in Palo Alto. The people who definitively find this

1483
01:18:17,160 --> 01:18:20,360
Speaker 1: space between fantasy and reality to be a problem are

1484
01:18:20,439 --> 01:18:24,120
Speaker 1: women who fell for a podcaster who professed deep, sustained

1485
01:18:24,160 --> 01:18:28,280
Speaker 1: concern for their personal growth, and who, in his skyrocketing influence,

1486
01:18:28,640 --> 01:18:31,880
Speaker 1: continue to project an image of earnest self discovery. It

1487
01:18:31,960 --> 01:18:34,439
Speaker 1: is here in the false belief of two minds and

1488
01:18:34,479 --> 01:18:39,000
Speaker 1: synchronicity and exploration that deception leads to harm, they fear

1489
01:18:39,080 --> 01:18:42,360
Speaker 1: it will lead to more. So, Yeah, what a piece,

1490
01:18:43,240 --> 01:18:45,920
Speaker 1: beautifully written. And I think that's kind of the So

1491
01:18:46,080 --> 01:18:48,320
Speaker 1: what these women are just raising the alarm that this

1492
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:52,640
Speaker 1: guy who is trafficking off as his scientific credentials is

1493
01:18:53,000 --> 01:18:56,680
Speaker 1: maybe actually not who he says he is, and the

1494
01:18:56,720 --> 01:18:59,120
Speaker 1: public should know if he's going to be a guru,

1495
01:18:59,200 --> 01:19:00,800
Speaker 1: there should be some trans fancy around that.

1496
01:19:01,479 --> 01:19:01,719
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1497
01:19:01,960 --> 01:19:06,120
Speaker 2: You know, anybody who stands up and says I have

1498
01:19:06,160 --> 01:19:09,439
Speaker 2: the answer, it is reasonable to inspect how they live

1499
01:19:09,479 --> 01:19:11,640
Speaker 2: their life.

1500
01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:26,559
Speaker 5: More. After a quick break, let's get right back into it.

1501
01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:32,320
Speaker 1: So a lot of Huberman supporters are really digging in

1502
01:19:32,400 --> 01:19:33,200
Speaker 1: and defending him.

1503
01:19:33,600 --> 01:19:35,040
Speaker 4: Maybe those are just the loudest ones.

1504
01:19:35,080 --> 01:19:38,080
Speaker 1: Maybe people who are like casual listeners of his podcast

1505
01:19:38,200 --> 01:19:39,920
Speaker 1: are like, I don't know, like that.

1506
01:19:40,000 --> 01:19:41,200
Speaker 4: Article seems fair. Who cares?

1507
01:19:43,400 --> 01:19:46,599
Speaker 1: It is so interesting really, because you know, I wonder

1508
01:19:46,640 --> 01:19:48,400
Speaker 1: if a lot of the people who listen to Huberman

1509
01:19:48,680 --> 01:19:52,160
Speaker 1: really identified with him, or maybe his lifestyle was like

1510
01:19:52,200 --> 01:19:55,320
Speaker 1: really aspirational to them, and so when he is being

1511
01:19:55,360 --> 01:19:58,960
Speaker 1: called out in this way, maybe they feel personally threatened

1512
01:19:59,000 --> 01:20:00,920
Speaker 1: and that is why they are coming to his defense

1513
01:20:01,080 --> 01:20:05,599
Speaker 1: so specifically, like Lex Friedman was like, he is a

1514
01:20:06,160 --> 01:20:08,479
Speaker 1: personal friend of mine and this is a hit job. Again,

1515
01:20:08,520 --> 01:20:10,799
Speaker 1: I was not able to read Lex Friedman's entire.

1516
01:20:10,600 --> 01:20:12,000
Speaker 4: Statement because he has me blocked.

1517
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:13,880
Speaker 1: But this idea that because you are a listener of

1518
01:20:13,920 --> 01:20:16,719
Speaker 1: his podcast or even like, let's like you know him personally,

1519
01:20:17,080 --> 01:20:19,920
Speaker 1: that you would know the intimacies of his romantic life

1520
01:20:19,960 --> 01:20:22,200
Speaker 1: and how he shows up sexually and romantically, Like I

1521
01:20:22,240 --> 01:20:24,200
Speaker 1: have plenty of close friends and I don't know the

1522
01:20:24,200 --> 01:20:26,879
Speaker 1: ins and outs of how they get down sexually and romantically,

1523
01:20:26,920 --> 01:20:29,400
Speaker 1: and I I would never pretend that I did, right,

1524
01:20:29,520 --> 01:20:33,320
Speaker 1: Like I find it really interesting how many people are

1525
01:20:33,320 --> 01:20:37,519
Speaker 1: so loudly coming to his defense, Like I follow and

1526
01:20:37,760 --> 01:20:41,160
Speaker 1: enjoy plenty of podcasters that I don't personally know. There

1527
01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:43,599
Speaker 1: is not one of them that I can think of

1528
01:20:43,640 --> 01:20:46,479
Speaker 1: that I would read like a long, critical, deep dive

1529
01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:49,160
Speaker 1: into their work and their history and their values that

1530
01:20:49,200 --> 01:20:51,320
Speaker 1: I wouldn't come away thinking like, oh, maybe they had

1531
01:20:51,320 --> 01:20:54,920
Speaker 1: a few points to see people summarily dismissing this as

1532
01:20:54,960 --> 01:20:57,559
Speaker 1: a hit job to defend Huberman like he as someone

1533
01:20:57,600 --> 01:20:57,880
Speaker 1: they know.

1534
01:20:58,120 --> 01:21:00,679
Speaker 4: And it's interesting how this has become this kind.

1535
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:04,280
Speaker 1: Of culture wars thing where it's like, Oh, they're just

1536
01:21:04,479 --> 01:21:07,599
Speaker 1: attacking him for no reason and I'm not even gonna

1537
01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:10,240
Speaker 1: lie like it's all bunk, right, and so like they're

1538
01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:13,840
Speaker 1: not even engaging with the pieces of the article that

1539
01:21:13,880 --> 01:21:16,439
Speaker 1: are not about his romantic life. Right, Like the way

1540
01:21:16,479 --> 01:21:18,680
Speaker 1: that he talked about that colleague of his that was

1541
01:21:18,720 --> 01:21:21,760
Speaker 1: a woman, that's not about his romantic life. His relationship

1542
01:21:21,760 --> 01:21:24,920
Speaker 1: with ag one and supplements, that's not about his romantic life.

1543
01:21:25,000 --> 01:21:27,760
Speaker 1: Like the questions about his own myth making and his

1544
01:21:27,840 --> 01:21:30,880
Speaker 1: background that's not about his romantic life. Are those not

1545
01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:34,280
Speaker 1: questions that need answers and deserve scrutiny for somebody who

1546
01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:36,799
Speaker 1: is bolstering themselves as a public guru.

1547
01:21:37,280 --> 01:21:40,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not surprising that it has sort of been

1548
01:21:41,200 --> 01:21:44,360
Speaker 2: framed and is being talked about as yet another culture

1549
01:21:44,400 --> 01:21:47,640
Speaker 2: war of us versus them. I think another lens that

1550
01:21:47,680 --> 01:21:50,200
Speaker 2: we could look at it is earlier we made an

1551
01:21:50,200 --> 01:21:55,760
Speaker 2: analogy to conspiracy theories, where his scientific rationale behind this

1552
01:21:55,920 --> 01:21:59,120
Speaker 2: or that solution is often like cherry picked. It'll be

1553
01:21:59,120 --> 01:22:01,000
Speaker 2: like a germ of true truth in there, but then

1554
01:22:01,040 --> 01:22:04,160
Speaker 2: build this elaborate, just so story around it that it

1555
01:22:04,160 --> 01:22:06,360
Speaker 2: sounds like in a lot of cases leads to the

1556
01:22:06,360 --> 01:22:09,240
Speaker 2: conclusion that you should buy some product that he's selling.

1557
01:22:09,400 --> 01:22:14,080
Speaker 2: And similarly here his followers. I suspect a lot of

1558
01:22:14,120 --> 01:22:17,439
Speaker 2: them are true believers. When confronted with a critical piece

1559
01:22:17,520 --> 01:22:20,320
Speaker 2: like this New York Mag article just reject it, right

1560
01:22:20,400 --> 01:22:23,880
Speaker 2: the same way that when you present somebody who believes

1561
01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:26,960
Speaker 2: in the conspiracy theory with evidence that refuse that conspiracy,

1562
01:22:27,000 --> 01:22:29,760
Speaker 2: they will, in most cases just double down, and the

1563
01:22:29,880 --> 01:22:32,599
Speaker 2: conflicting evidence is somehow reinterpreted in a way that makes

1564
01:22:32,640 --> 01:22:35,439
Speaker 2: them believe in the conspiracy even more strongly. It feels

1565
01:22:35,439 --> 01:22:37,840
Speaker 2: like there's something similar going on here as well.

1566
01:22:38,200 --> 01:22:41,720
Speaker 1: Well, I can tell you who A lot of his

1567
01:22:42,120 --> 01:22:46,720
Speaker 1: defenders are saying it is behind this hit piece, Big Pharma.

1568
01:22:46,880 --> 01:22:48,240
Speaker 4: Big Pharma doesn't.

1569
01:22:48,080 --> 01:22:51,920
Speaker 1: Like that Andrew Kuberman is preaching the powers of meditation

1570
01:22:52,160 --> 01:22:55,439
Speaker 1: and sunlight and ice baths and supplements. They want us

1571
01:22:55,479 --> 01:23:00,519
Speaker 1: all hooked on the big Pharma machine. That's why New

1572
01:23:00,600 --> 01:23:03,720
Speaker 1: York Mag is like writing this, like well researched, well

1573
01:23:03,760 --> 01:23:05,200
Speaker 1: written take out of his life.

1574
01:23:05,840 --> 01:23:10,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're just a front for big Pharma. I'm no

1575
01:23:10,520 --> 01:23:13,599
Speaker 2: big fan of the pharmaceutical industry. They do lots of

1576
01:23:13,760 --> 01:23:17,559
Speaker 2: like pretty shady, harmful stuff, no question, but in this case, yes,

1577
01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:21,439
Speaker 2: dismissing this piece as a hit piece by Big Pharma,

1578
01:23:21,760 --> 01:23:24,920
Speaker 2: I feel like George Soros is just like one step

1579
01:23:25,200 --> 01:23:30,639
Speaker 2: away in that causal chain of dismissive logic.

1580
01:23:30,840 --> 01:23:31,679
Speaker 4: Oh totally.

1581
01:23:31,720 --> 01:23:34,840
Speaker 1: And side note like I feel like whenever like this

1582
01:23:34,880 --> 01:23:37,320
Speaker 1: is a hit piece, an attack job by Big Pharma,

1583
01:23:37,360 --> 01:23:39,479
Speaker 1: whenever that is the go to line of defense, It

1584
01:23:39,520 --> 01:23:42,720
Speaker 1: really tells me a lot about the audience that the

1585
01:23:42,760 --> 01:23:46,519
Speaker 1: person has cultivated, because that was the same thing that

1586
01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:49,439
Speaker 1: they used to defend Joe Rogan when people like me

1587
01:23:49,560 --> 01:23:52,519
Speaker 1: were pointing out his use of misinformation in the podcast space.

1588
01:23:52,560 --> 01:23:53,439
Speaker 4: They were like, oh, like.

1589
01:23:53,760 --> 01:23:57,559
Speaker 1: He isn't down with the COVID vaccine, He's interested in

1590
01:23:57,640 --> 01:24:01,080
Speaker 1: alternatives to curb COVID, so Big Pharma had to take

1591
01:24:01,160 --> 01:24:03,880
Speaker 1: him down. I feel like that tells me so much

1592
01:24:04,000 --> 01:24:06,040
Speaker 1: about the audience that you have cultivated and what they

1593
01:24:06,040 --> 01:24:08,360
Speaker 1: are about and what they value what they don't value.

1594
01:24:08,720 --> 01:24:10,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's not just listen to me, I have

1595
01:24:10,840 --> 01:24:14,400
Speaker 2: the answer. It's also don't listen to anybody else. They're

1596
01:24:14,400 --> 01:24:15,360
Speaker 2: trying to deceive you.

1597
01:24:15,800 --> 01:24:18,760
Speaker 1: And anybody who says anything critical about what this person

1598
01:24:18,800 --> 01:24:22,080
Speaker 1: is saying, they're not just wrong they are like in

1599
01:24:22,160 --> 01:24:25,560
Speaker 1: the pocket of Big Pharma. Again, it's that total conspiratorial

1600
01:24:25,600 --> 01:24:27,439
Speaker 1: thinking that it's like they don't just have a difference

1601
01:24:27,479 --> 01:24:31,559
Speaker 1: of opinion, it's like on the farious plot. So in

1602
01:24:31,640 --> 01:24:35,120
Speaker 1: the fallout of all of this, people are really trying

1603
01:24:35,160 --> 01:24:37,360
Speaker 1: to come for the person who wrote the article, who

1604
01:24:37,400 --> 01:24:41,040
Speaker 1: is New York mag writer Carrie Howley, who I love

1605
01:24:41,120 --> 01:24:43,400
Speaker 1: Carrie's writing, Like, if you ever see a deep dive

1606
01:24:43,439 --> 01:24:46,400
Speaker 1: written by Carry, go ahead and click it immediately. One

1607
01:24:46,439 --> 01:24:48,920
Speaker 1: of those writers that if anybody ever calls me and

1608
01:24:49,040 --> 01:24:51,280
Speaker 1: is like, I'm fact checking a piece by Carry Howley

1609
01:24:51,280 --> 01:24:53,280
Speaker 1: and like to ask you a few questions, I will

1610
01:24:53,320 --> 01:24:53,759
Speaker 1: be very.

1611
01:24:53,640 --> 01:24:59,200
Speaker 2: Concerned, yes, but can confirm it is so well written.

1612
01:24:59,320 --> 01:25:02,080
Speaker 2: It was like a joy to read, even like setting

1613
01:25:02,120 --> 01:25:06,280
Speaker 2: the content aside, just the the pros, the writing. It

1614
01:25:06,560 --> 01:25:08,479
Speaker 2: was refreshing, It was really nice.

1615
01:25:08,760 --> 01:25:11,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally agreed. So I hate to see Kerrie being

1616
01:25:11,439 --> 01:25:12,320
Speaker 4: attacked in this way.

1617
01:25:12,760 --> 01:25:17,160
Speaker 1: Huberman retained the crisis pr firm called Scale Strategy. Fun fact,

1618
01:25:17,280 --> 01:25:19,240
Speaker 1: Scale Strategy is brought to us by one of the

1619
01:25:19,240 --> 01:25:22,600
Speaker 1: guys who handled the disastrous.

1620
01:25:22,400 --> 01:25:24,840
Speaker 4: We Work IPO and was fired soon after.

1621
01:25:25,040 --> 01:25:29,000
Speaker 1: So one of the folks who might be on Huberman's

1622
01:25:29,200 --> 01:25:32,679
Speaker 1: crisis PR campaign to navigate the fallout of this article.

1623
01:25:33,000 --> 01:25:35,240
Speaker 1: Something else I have seen is that a lot of

1624
01:25:35,280 --> 01:25:40,080
Speaker 1: his loudest defenders are saying, well, if Huberman has been

1625
01:25:40,200 --> 01:25:43,799
Speaker 1: juggling hot women this effectively, it means that the methods

1626
01:25:43,840 --> 01:25:46,280
Speaker 1: that he preaches on the podcast must be effective.

1627
01:25:46,400 --> 01:25:49,080
Speaker 4: Like he's really like a masculine guy.

1628
01:25:49,120 --> 01:25:52,840
Speaker 1: That they're applauding what he has been accused of doing,

1629
01:25:53,360 --> 01:25:56,880
Speaker 1: and that makes him more likable in their eyes. And

1630
01:25:56,920 --> 01:25:59,280
Speaker 1: that is what I mean, Like, that's the thing that

1631
01:25:59,320 --> 01:26:01,840
Speaker 1: I think that we're not coming right out and saying directly.

1632
01:26:02,200 --> 01:26:06,240
Speaker 1: I think that casual misogyny and sexism and gaslighting women

1633
01:26:06,560 --> 01:26:10,559
Speaker 1: and demanding submission of women, I think all of this

1634
01:26:10,600 --> 01:26:14,320
Speaker 1: stuff isn't something that the audience that he has cultivated

1635
01:26:14,479 --> 01:26:17,040
Speaker 1: is it all bothered by. In fact, quite the opposite.

1636
01:26:17,120 --> 01:26:19,280
Speaker 1: I think to them, this is a feature, not a bug.

1637
01:26:19,320 --> 01:26:21,360
Speaker 1: I think that they like this. I think that like

1638
01:26:21,760 --> 01:26:24,960
Speaker 1: the way he is accused of treating these women is

1639
01:26:25,040 --> 01:26:28,720
Speaker 1: not removed from the content that he makes on the podcast.

1640
01:26:28,800 --> 01:26:33,200
Speaker 1: I think it's all one big intricate quilt, and I

1641
01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:34,680
Speaker 1: think it's all related.

1642
01:26:35,479 --> 01:26:39,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the fact that they aren't more bothered by

1643
01:26:39,640 --> 01:26:42,680
Speaker 2: the deception that is at the very root of it

1644
01:26:42,760 --> 01:26:46,960
Speaker 2: is worrisome and unfortunate. You know, people can have different

1645
01:26:46,960 --> 01:26:51,640
Speaker 2: ideas about what dating and relationships and life should look like.

1646
01:26:52,280 --> 01:26:54,479
Speaker 2: But I feel like most people that I know in

1647
01:26:54,520 --> 01:26:57,959
Speaker 2: my personal life, even people who like have different political

1648
01:26:58,000 --> 01:27:01,320
Speaker 2: and social views than me, most people agree that deception

1649
01:27:01,479 --> 01:27:04,720
Speaker 2: is bad and you shouldn't use it. And it feels

1650
01:27:05,240 --> 01:27:08,840
Speaker 2: like there's something going on where public figures get a

1651
01:27:08,960 --> 01:27:13,280
Speaker 2: pass on that that people would not allow peers or

1652
01:27:13,320 --> 01:27:15,480
Speaker 2: acquaintances in their everyday life.

1653
01:27:15,920 --> 01:27:16,639
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh.

1654
01:27:16,640 --> 01:27:19,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I would argue that we are kind of

1655
01:27:19,760 --> 01:27:24,040
Speaker 1: in a golden era of scammers, where people are willing

1656
01:27:24,240 --> 01:27:27,400
Speaker 1: to close their eyes to the way that the people

1657
01:27:27,479 --> 01:27:31,320
Speaker 1: that they follow, the people that they have upheld as aspirational,

1658
01:27:31,560 --> 01:27:33,600
Speaker 1: They are very willing to close their eyes to the

1659
01:27:33,640 --> 01:27:36,000
Speaker 1: way that those people are moving right in front of

1660
01:27:36,000 --> 01:27:38,280
Speaker 1: their faces in a way that is deceptive. Like this

1661
01:27:38,360 --> 01:27:42,479
Speaker 1: is a weird analogy, but there's this young black Mormon

1662
01:27:42,640 --> 01:27:47,160
Speaker 1: treadwife influencer who is really famous for making videos of

1663
01:27:47,200 --> 01:27:51,000
Speaker 1: her like baking in ball gowns to show off how

1664
01:27:51,080 --> 01:27:53,840
Speaker 1: much money she has, like shopping and blah blah, blah.

1665
01:27:53,880 --> 01:27:56,479
Speaker 1: And I got into an argument on threads with somebody,

1666
01:27:56,600 --> 01:27:58,920
Speaker 1: another black woman, about this, and she was like, people

1667
01:27:58,960 --> 01:28:00,840
Speaker 1: are hating on her because they hate to see a

1668
01:28:00,880 --> 01:28:04,000
Speaker 1: black woman live a life of luxury, and like that's

1669
01:28:04,040 --> 01:28:06,000
Speaker 1: what she's doing, and she's like being a good mom

1670
01:28:06,040 --> 01:28:07,519
Speaker 1: and people just hate to see that when it's a

1671
01:28:07,520 --> 01:28:08,920
Speaker 1: black woman. And I was like, well, I'm a black

1672
01:28:08,920 --> 01:28:10,160
Speaker 1: woman and I don't hate to see that.

1673
01:28:10,360 --> 01:28:11,200
Speaker 4: But this woman is.

1674
01:28:11,320 --> 01:28:14,800
Speaker 1: A contact creator. The whole thing is like artifice to

1675
01:28:14,840 --> 01:28:17,639
Speaker 1: make her money. This is just how she lives her life.

1676
01:28:17,800 --> 01:28:21,120
Speaker 1: It's by nature performative. So like I wasn't like getting

1677
01:28:21,160 --> 01:28:22,840
Speaker 1: down on this woman, but I was just saying, like,

1678
01:28:22,920 --> 01:28:24,920
Speaker 1: let's be honest. If this woman is a contact creator,

1679
01:28:25,240 --> 01:28:27,800
Speaker 1: she is setting up a tripod and lighting and wearing

1680
01:28:27,840 --> 01:28:30,799
Speaker 1: a specific outfit to do something performative to make money.

1681
01:28:31,080 --> 01:28:31,880
Speaker 4: That's just what it is.

1682
01:28:32,200 --> 01:28:34,200
Speaker 1: And you would have thought that I called this woman

1683
01:28:34,640 --> 01:28:37,120
Speaker 1: a bad name. She was like, how dare you say that?

1684
01:28:37,160 --> 01:28:40,200
Speaker 1: And I was like, it's obviously performative. I don't even

1685
01:28:40,200 --> 01:28:42,559
Speaker 1: think that the woman in the videos would be like, oh,

1686
01:28:42,640 --> 01:28:45,960
Speaker 1: this is a realistic depiction of my life as someone

1687
01:28:45,960 --> 01:28:48,599
Speaker 1: who makes food for my kids, Like I just couldn't

1688
01:28:48,640 --> 01:28:51,640
Speaker 1: believe that an adult would be so willing.

1689
01:28:51,640 --> 01:28:55,519
Speaker 4: To play into the scam that is so obviously unfolding

1690
01:28:55,520 --> 01:28:56,040
Speaker 4: in front of her.

1691
01:28:56,120 --> 01:28:58,519
Speaker 1: Not to say this woman is scamming, but I was

1692
01:28:58,560 --> 01:29:03,320
Speaker 1: surprised to see an adult unwilling or unable to call

1693
01:29:03,400 --> 01:29:05,519
Speaker 1: this what it was, a money making enterprise.

1694
01:29:06,080 --> 01:29:08,000
Speaker 4: Do you know what I'm saying? I do?

1695
01:29:08,200 --> 01:29:08,880
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1696
01:29:08,920 --> 01:29:10,519
Speaker 1: Like, why was it so important to her that this

1697
01:29:10,560 --> 01:29:15,559
Speaker 1: woman be deemed authentic and not performative? What is lost

1698
01:29:15,680 --> 01:29:18,600
Speaker 1: if you acknowledge the obvious truth that this is a

1699
01:29:18,640 --> 01:29:19,799
Speaker 1: performance to make money.

1700
01:29:20,000 --> 01:29:29,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good question, and maybe one for another episode.

1701
01:29:30,320 --> 01:29:34,200
Speaker 2: So Bridget, I know that you like this story really

1702
01:29:34,400 --> 01:29:35,440
Speaker 2: got you.

1703
01:29:35,439 --> 01:29:36,879
Speaker 3: You read a bunch of stuff.

1704
01:29:37,240 --> 01:29:41,760
Speaker 2: You kept writing and writing and writing and writing, and

1705
01:29:41,800 --> 01:29:44,360
Speaker 2: thank you for doing all that. Let's land this plane

1706
01:29:44,479 --> 01:29:45,880
Speaker 2: and bring it home. What is it about this story

1707
01:29:45,880 --> 01:29:47,080
Speaker 2: that really speaks to you?

1708
01:29:47,560 --> 01:29:50,360
Speaker 1: I think the story speaks to me for a lot

1709
01:29:50,400 --> 01:29:56,480
Speaker 1: of reasons. I think the response it demonstrates how siloed

1710
01:29:56,640 --> 01:30:02,040
Speaker 1: and how charged everything is that you can't even you know,

1711
01:30:02,439 --> 01:30:05,280
Speaker 1: deal with this story on its merits or like pick

1712
01:30:05,280 --> 01:30:07,479
Speaker 1: out the pieces that you might think, like, well, well

1713
01:30:07,479 --> 01:30:09,760
Speaker 1: that's to be something that the only way that people

1714
01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:11,720
Speaker 1: who are detractors of it can engage with it is

1715
01:30:11,720 --> 01:30:15,960
Speaker 1: as a hitchub Two. This is so maybe so petty,

1716
01:30:15,960 --> 01:30:18,400
Speaker 1: but like it bums me out that this is what

1717
01:30:18,439 --> 01:30:21,360
Speaker 1: the podcast space looks like sometimes, that it's like it's

1718
01:30:21,439 --> 01:30:24,920
Speaker 1: such a space where, through marketing and a certain kind

1719
01:30:24,920 --> 01:30:30,080
Speaker 1: of language and appeal, people can really build huge, powerful

1720
01:30:30,160 --> 01:30:34,479
Speaker 1: platforms that maybe when you look a little closer or

1721
01:30:34,640 --> 01:30:37,439
Speaker 1: are not so great, and maybe you look even closer,

1722
01:30:37,600 --> 01:30:40,320
Speaker 1: maybe they're a little bit dangerous. And so I think

1723
01:30:40,320 --> 01:30:42,800
Speaker 1: that's my main takeaway is that I think that we

1724
01:30:42,920 --> 01:30:47,240
Speaker 1: all deserve good content, like if you care about what

1725
01:30:47,280 --> 01:30:49,519
Speaker 1: you put in your body. Part of that, I think

1726
01:30:49,600 --> 01:30:53,120
Speaker 1: is that we deserve like good information, and we deserve

1727
01:30:53,680 --> 01:30:55,839
Speaker 1: good information from people who are not liars.

1728
01:30:56,360 --> 01:30:58,240
Speaker 4: And it sounds like from reading this.

1729
01:30:58,280 --> 01:31:02,720
Speaker 1: Piece that Hubanmen might be somebody who is so invested

1730
01:31:02,880 --> 01:31:06,840
Speaker 1: in personal myth making and brand building and enrichment that

1731
01:31:07,040 --> 01:31:11,200
Speaker 1: he might be someone who is at risk for their

1732
01:31:11,280 --> 01:31:15,120
Speaker 1: platform causing some harm. And I think we got to

1733
01:31:15,120 --> 01:31:15,680
Speaker 1: look out for that.

1734
01:31:16,520 --> 01:31:18,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally agree.

1735
01:31:18,920 --> 01:31:21,799
Speaker 1: Well, Mike, you were in the document, my research document.

1736
01:31:21,920 --> 01:31:23,639
Speaker 1: When you saw it, it was five pages long.

1737
01:31:23,640 --> 01:31:25,120
Speaker 4: And then when you clicked in this morning, you were like, oh,

1738
01:31:25,120 --> 01:31:27,799
Speaker 4: it's eleven pages. Now I could have kept going.

1739
01:31:28,360 --> 01:31:30,720
Speaker 1: Thank you for diving into all of this with me

1740
01:31:31,160 --> 01:31:33,559
Speaker 1: and listeners. I want to hear your thoughts. Are you

1741
01:31:33,640 --> 01:31:38,200
Speaker 1: a Huberman husband or someone a follower of Daddy Huberman

1742
01:31:38,280 --> 01:31:40,400
Speaker 1: that's what they call him on TikTok I want to know.

1743
01:31:40,439 --> 01:31:42,439
Speaker 4: You can hit us up at Hello atangoi dot com.

1744
01:31:42,600 --> 01:31:45,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm also so curious if you listen to our

1745
01:31:45,960 --> 01:31:49,160
Speaker 2: show and you also listen to Huberman's show, we would

1746
01:31:49,240 --> 01:31:51,400
Speaker 2: love to hear your taink. I know that there's a

1747
01:31:51,439 --> 01:31:53,439
Speaker 2: lot of good people who get a lot of value

1748
01:31:53,439 --> 01:31:56,439
Speaker 2: out of his content, and so would just love to

1749
01:31:56,479 --> 01:31:59,400
Speaker 2: hear your take about this. Please let us know agreed,

1750
01:31:59,600 --> 01:32:01,920
Speaker 2: hit us up. Thanks for having me, Bridget, Thanks Mike.

1751
01:32:06,880 --> 01:32:08,880
Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or

1752
01:32:09,000 --> 01:32:10,840
Speaker 1: just want to say hi? You can reach us at

1753
01:32:10,840 --> 01:32:13,559
Speaker 1: hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts

1754
01:32:13,560 --> 01:32:16,000
Speaker 1: for today's episode at tenggody dot com. There Are No

1755
01:32:16,080 --> 01:32:18,200
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget tod

1756
01:32:18,560 --> 01:32:21,960
Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed. Creative Jonathan Strickland

1757
01:32:22,000 --> 01:32:24,720
Speaker 1: is our executive producer. Tarry Harrison is our producer and

1758
01:32:24,800 --> 01:32:28,559
Speaker 1: sound engineer. Michael Almado is our contributing producer. I'm your host,

1759
01:32:28,560 --> 01:32:31,360
Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate

1760
01:32:31,400 --> 01:32:32,000
Speaker 1: and review.

1761
01:32:31,800 --> 01:32:33,120
Speaker 5: Us on Apple Podcasts.

1762
01:32:33,600 --> 01:32:36,439
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,

1763
01:32:36,479 --> 01:32:49,640
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts