WEBVTT - The Power of Teachers’ Unions 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:24.356 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background the show 0:00:24.396 --> 0:00:27.516 where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:27.996 --> 0:00:33.036 I'm Noah Feldman. One of the most remarkable controversies around 0:00:33.076 --> 0:00:36.436 the exercise of power that took place during the entirety 0:00:36.676 --> 0:00:39.716 of the COVID nineteen pandemic was the struggle in the 0:00:39.796 --> 0:00:43.876 United States between teachers and some jurisdictions who were afraid 0:00:43.956 --> 0:00:46.396 to go back to school because they were concerned about 0:00:46.396 --> 0:00:51.036 catching COVID and some parents who really wanted their kids 0:00:51.156 --> 0:00:54.916 to be back in school. At the center of these 0:00:54.956 --> 0:00:59.676 debates were teachers unions themselves, one of the most significant 0:00:59.836 --> 0:01:03.756 remaining forms of labor unionism in America today and also 0:01:03.876 --> 0:01:08.396 in certain respects among the most controversial. To discuss the 0:01:08.476 --> 0:01:13.516 question of public sector unions power, COVID nineteen and where 0:01:13.596 --> 0:01:17.316 we're going on this complex of difficult issues. We're joined 0:01:17.356 --> 0:01:21.356 by Randy Weingart. Randy is the head of the American 0:01:21.396 --> 0:01:25.916 Federation of Teachers, the second largest teachers union in the country. 0:01:26.196 --> 0:01:29.356 That makes her one of the most powerful, visible and 0:01:29.596 --> 0:01:33.196 vocal union leaders in the United States today, and she's 0:01:33.196 --> 0:01:36.116 also a person who, as a lawyer, has a powerful 0:01:36.196 --> 0:01:39.476 understanding of the constitutional and legal issues around unionism, as 0:01:39.476 --> 0:01:43.516 well as the history of unionism and its rise at fall. Randy, 0:01:43.596 --> 0:01:49.276 thank you so much for being I want to talk 0:01:49.276 --> 0:01:52.236 to you about the grand topics that you've been so 0:01:52.356 --> 0:01:56.156 engaged in over the last fifteen months, but I also 0:01:56.236 --> 0:01:58.036 want to go to the bigger picture. I don't just 0:01:58.116 --> 0:02:02.036 want to talk more about COVID and closures, but I 0:02:02.076 --> 0:02:06.076 want to talk about what has happened to unions, both 0:02:06.116 --> 0:02:09.476 private sector and public sector unions over recent decade and 0:02:09.556 --> 0:02:14.276 what that's meant for the power of workers taken as 0:02:14.316 --> 0:02:16.916 a whole. So I guess the place I want to 0:02:16.916 --> 0:02:19.916 start is with a kind of middle level question. Having 0:02:20.036 --> 0:02:23.236 lived through and been a central actor in the very 0:02:23.276 --> 0:02:28.156 intense debates around school closing and school openings, do you 0:02:28.316 --> 0:02:32.876 think that the power of at least public sector unions 0:02:33.076 --> 0:02:38.916 like the AFT has increased or decreased through the process 0:02:39.036 --> 0:02:41.676 of the last year and a half. That is a 0:02:41.716 --> 0:02:47.476 really good question. I think that understanding of who teachers 0:02:47.516 --> 0:02:51.796 are and what they need to do the work to 0:02:51.836 --> 0:02:56.956 help students has increased, and I think the needing to 0:02:57.076 --> 0:03:03.316 have organization and a union, as a Philip Randolph said 0:03:03.396 --> 0:03:07.236 so many years ago as a way to create power 0:03:07.956 --> 0:03:14.036 that has increased, certainly amongst workers if you watch what 0:03:14.116 --> 0:03:17.956 the right wing does. Certainly our power has increased. But 0:03:18.196 --> 0:03:21.956 oftentimes what the right wing does is to pretend we 0:03:22.036 --> 0:03:25.116 have far more power than we really do, to try 0:03:25.116 --> 0:03:29.156 to slay that as opposed to actually listen to what 0:03:29.156 --> 0:03:33.116 we're saying. So I'm balanced. I think the answer is yes, 0:03:33.876 --> 0:03:39.036 But it's certainly not enough power to actually ensure that 0:03:39.636 --> 0:03:46.116 working people and working communities, particularly parents, kids, and those 0:03:46.156 --> 0:03:48.596 who make a difference in their lives like teachers and 0:03:48.676 --> 0:03:53.196 emergency medical workers and meat packers and things like that, 0:03:53.876 --> 0:03:58.316 had the safety conditions that they needed for us to 0:03:58.476 --> 0:04:03.156 actually navigate through COVID better than we did. Is it 0:04:03.156 --> 0:04:06.596 fair to say, Randy, that in just about every case, 0:04:06.836 --> 0:04:10.396 at least the ones that I know of, teachers unions 0:04:10.436 --> 0:04:15.156 in the end one the fights about back to school, 0:04:15.196 --> 0:04:17.236 or I don't know of an instance. Maybe I'm wrong 0:04:17.796 --> 0:04:22.076 where a union was essentially coerced back to work when 0:04:22.076 --> 0:04:24.316 it wasn't ready to do so, or do I have 0:04:24.396 --> 0:04:29.236 that wrong? I think where there were unions that had 0:04:29.716 --> 0:04:35.476 decent relationships with parents and with superintendents, and in states 0:04:35.556 --> 0:04:39.596 that understood that safety was a real concern, like safety 0:04:39.716 --> 0:04:43.156 was the way back in. I think that we did 0:04:43.316 --> 0:04:47.756 win because we were able to show that safety was 0:04:47.796 --> 0:04:52.476 the way back into schooling, not the obstacle to school 0:04:53.036 --> 0:04:56.036 But there were lots of different places across the country 0:04:56.476 --> 0:05:01.156 where there are no unions and where governors pretended that 0:05:01.276 --> 0:05:05.836 COVID didn't exist, but where there were unions, where people 0:05:05.916 --> 0:05:10.196 saw that safety really was the way in. I do 0:05:10.356 --> 0:05:14.316 think we were able to reopen schools safely for in 0:05:14.356 --> 0:05:17.996 person learning. The issue about in person learning was never 0:05:18.396 --> 0:05:23.556 the debate and the dispute. Any educator pre COVID would 0:05:23.596 --> 0:05:26.556 have told you how important in person learning was. I 0:05:26.596 --> 0:05:31.756 do think that COVID has made the case for why 0:05:31.996 --> 0:05:35.836 unions are important, because who else is going to protect 0:05:36.076 --> 0:05:39.916 the safety and well being of the workers and of 0:05:39.996 --> 0:05:45.196 the people who use public services and who use private 0:05:45.196 --> 0:05:49.556 manufacturing services like beat processing plants. Randy, what do you 0:05:49.596 --> 0:05:53.396 think of as the costs of those victories? So I 0:05:53.436 --> 0:05:56.356 hear you saying, and this sounds sensible to me that 0:05:56.476 --> 0:05:58.716 both for people who are in unions and for people 0:05:58.756 --> 0:06:01.596 who need them but aren't in them, one of the 0:06:01.596 --> 0:06:04.236 big lessons off COVID was without a union to protect 0:06:04.276 --> 0:06:06.516 you you can be put in a situation where you 0:06:06.556 --> 0:06:09.276 have to return to the workplace under conditions which you 0:06:09.316 --> 0:06:12.396 don't experience as safe, and that seems like a powerful argument. 0:06:13.036 --> 0:06:16.916 On the other hand, there was pretty clearly some public backlash, 0:06:16.956 --> 0:06:21.916 at least among upper middle class parents about the thought 0:06:22.236 --> 0:06:25.476 that the school unions, the teachers unions, were too powerful 0:06:25.596 --> 0:06:28.716 in the sense that there was a genuine dispute about 0:06:28.756 --> 0:06:31.556 whether kids should go back to school and when, and 0:06:31.796 --> 0:06:33.876 as you were saying, the unions did for the most 0:06:33.916 --> 0:06:38.356 part win those fights. Now, obviously one of the things 0:06:38.396 --> 0:06:40.836 about exercising powers you can't make everybody happy all of 0:06:40.876 --> 0:06:42.436 the time, and you have to act on behalf of 0:06:42.436 --> 0:06:46.316 your constituents. But I'm wondering how you think about the 0:06:46.436 --> 0:06:51.556 overall costs to teachers unions of the victories that you want, 0:06:51.596 --> 0:06:53.956 again conceding that they were victories and also that it 0:06:53.996 --> 0:06:56.916 was probably good that you won. Nevertheless, there's still some 0:06:56.956 --> 0:07:01.956 real world downsides. So look, I think that the fact 0:07:02.076 --> 0:07:06.196 that you saw the tensions between parents and teachers were 0:07:06.196 --> 0:07:08.636 really terrible. This is part of the reason why you 0:07:08.756 --> 0:07:11.876 hear be hesitating when somebody says is it a win? 0:07:12.076 --> 0:07:15.516 Is it a loss? Teachers want what kids need, and 0:07:15.756 --> 0:07:19.396 most of the time, for us to be successful in 0:07:19.516 --> 0:07:23.076 educating kids, parents need to be our partners. So when 0:07:23.116 --> 0:07:26.876 you see dissonance in that and that there was a 0:07:26.996 --> 0:07:33.596 real disagreement, particularly you saw in upper middle class households, 0:07:33.676 --> 0:07:37.556 that is a real problem and we need to reconnect together. 0:07:38.436 --> 0:07:42.636 But I think what also happened is that you see 0:07:43.116 --> 0:07:49.276 the inequality of how COVID affected people, because in black 0:07:49.316 --> 0:07:54.276 and brown communities, where COVID affected people much more lethally, 0:07:54.956 --> 0:07:57.916 you see much more of a shared understanding. And frankly, 0:07:58.396 --> 0:08:02.276 in poll results that we've seen, we've done parent polling 0:08:02.396 --> 0:08:07.276 with several other groups, there's overwhelming support in that polling 0:08:07.636 --> 0:08:13.156 for educators, education unions, and for public schools. So I 0:08:13.196 --> 0:08:18.436 think you saw a real divide based upon how COVID 0:08:18.876 --> 0:08:25.396 actually impacted people's personal health and their community's personal health. 0:08:25.756 --> 0:08:29.476 In places where it didn't have the kind of impact, 0:08:29.636 --> 0:08:32.156 you saw a real friction. In places where it had 0:08:32.236 --> 0:08:35.876 real impact, you saw much less friction because there was 0:08:35.916 --> 0:08:40.156 a shared lived experience. And I think that the least 0:08:40.196 --> 0:08:42.756 thing I'd say is one of the things that we 0:08:42.796 --> 0:08:45.916 saw that was done better in other countries than in 0:08:45.956 --> 0:08:51.116 America was that in other countries the public health concerns 0:08:51.476 --> 0:08:54.956 and the honesty about them and the transparency about it 0:08:55.036 --> 0:08:58.556 and how to deal with the public health concerns created 0:08:58.596 --> 0:09:01.796 a shared community, which it didn't in the United States. 0:09:02.276 --> 0:09:05.316 Do you think that the sense that many teachers have 0:09:05.556 --> 0:09:08.716 of not being fully appreciated in all that they do, 0:09:08.796 --> 0:09:11.276 that is to say, not having the ordinary person understand 0:09:11.316 --> 0:09:14.916 the full range of things the teachers do was exacerbated 0:09:15.076 --> 0:09:18.036 by the struggles that in some places, as you were describing, 0:09:18.116 --> 0:09:20.596 did happen over COVID. I mean, I certainly had the 0:09:20.596 --> 0:09:22.476 sense from my friends who are public school teachers that 0:09:22.476 --> 0:09:26.076 they felt much more misunderstood even than they usually do, 0:09:26.196 --> 0:09:29.516 in this last period of time. Yes, I would actually 0:09:29.556 --> 0:09:34.276 divide it up into three different periods of time March 0:09:34.356 --> 0:09:40.156 twenty twenty through June July twenty twenty, the fall of 0:09:40.276 --> 0:09:46.316 twenty twenty through basically November December, and then the winter 0:09:46.556 --> 0:09:50.276 spring of twenty twenty one. And I think what happened 0:09:50.356 --> 0:09:54.676 was between March and June of twenty twenty there was 0:09:54.716 --> 0:09:58.476 a shared sense of teachers and parents that we're in 0:09:58.556 --> 0:10:03.076 it together. We're all trying to figure out these remote platforms. 0:10:03.196 --> 0:10:05.956 We're trying to do the best we can, and there 0:10:06.076 --> 0:10:10.116 was huge appreciation for teachers because parents at that point 0:10:10.276 --> 0:10:14.196 had a front row seat because they're listening on the 0:10:14.196 --> 0:10:17.516 computer to what a teacher is doing, trying to pull 0:10:17.596 --> 0:10:20.876 things out of kids, trying to make kids feel okay, 0:10:20.876 --> 0:10:23.396 trying to do that. So I think that you saw 0:10:23.956 --> 0:10:29.516 actually more appreciation than teachers normally get. Between March and June, 0:10:30.236 --> 0:10:34.356 when the data started coming in over the summer to 0:10:34.436 --> 0:10:40.036 the fall, combined with Trump and Divorce's refusal to actually 0:10:40.676 --> 0:10:44.316 implement with fidelity the CDC guidelines or give us any 0:10:44.396 --> 0:10:48.676 resources to actually do that, you saw data that basically 0:10:48.716 --> 0:10:52.316 said kids don't get as affected, and Trump and Divorce 0:10:52.396 --> 0:10:55.756 were saying, okay, because kids don't get as affected, all 0:10:55.756 --> 0:10:57.916 of you have to be back in school, with no 0:10:58.076 --> 0:11:02.996 understanding that the teachers were affected and their lives could 0:11:03.036 --> 0:11:07.236 be at risk, and unlike nurses and doctors, were getting 0:11:07.276 --> 0:11:10.356 none of the safeguards that they needed. So that's when 0:11:10.396 --> 0:11:14.156 you saw a lot of real stress and adjita because 0:11:14.316 --> 0:11:17.796 teachers always wanted to be back in school. We saw 0:11:17.796 --> 0:11:22.316 that impolling results throughout the year that if we could 0:11:22.356 --> 0:11:25.436 get the safeguards seventy to eighty percent of MIND members 0:11:25.476 --> 0:11:27.396 said I want to be in school, because we know 0:11:27.476 --> 0:11:32.196 how important that was. The real place which huge stress 0:11:32.636 --> 0:11:38.236 was January through probably March or April, before the vaccines 0:11:38.636 --> 0:11:42.476 were seen as such a game changer, because essentially what 0:11:42.516 --> 0:11:46.716 you saw was that parents were saying to teachers, I 0:11:46.796 --> 0:11:49.916 don't really care whether you feel like you're going to 0:11:49.996 --> 0:11:52.916 get sick or not. My kids need to be in school, 0:11:53.356 --> 0:11:56.476 and teachers who are saying, I want to be in school, 0:11:56.836 --> 0:11:58.916 I just don't want to get sick. So I need 0:11:58.916 --> 0:12:02.436 the safety safeguards and so we need the layered mitigation, 0:12:02.556 --> 0:12:06.636 the testing, and then ultimately the vaccines. And so by 0:12:07.076 --> 0:12:11.476 April and May things had really flipped around. But January, 0:12:11.956 --> 0:12:17.236 February March were very tough. I love that analysis. Do 0:12:17.316 --> 0:12:21.156 you think part of what was so bad January February 0:12:21.196 --> 0:12:24.116 March of twenty twenty one is that there was also 0:12:24.196 --> 0:12:27.476 an emerging view, which I think is still not definitively 0:12:27.516 --> 0:12:31.116 the consensus, but an emerging view among epidemiologists that at 0:12:31.156 --> 0:12:34.676 least for elementary school kids, they were very unlikely to 0:12:34.836 --> 0:12:38.156 be even asymptomatic carriers who were going to pass on 0:12:38.276 --> 0:12:41.356 COVID nineteen when I speak to epidemiologists now about what 0:12:41.396 --> 0:12:43.676 could have been done differently. One of the things they 0:12:43.676 --> 0:12:45.316 say is, we didn't know it at the time, but 0:12:45.356 --> 0:12:47.676 if this ever happens again, we might have been able 0:12:47.716 --> 0:12:50.836 to keep open schools at the elementary school level. And 0:12:51.036 --> 0:12:52.916 so was that part of what was happening at that 0:12:52.956 --> 0:12:55.756 period of time that that view was starting to filter through. 0:12:56.756 --> 0:12:59.956 I think that view had started to filter through last 0:13:00.036 --> 0:13:03.156 summer through September and October, which is part of the 0:13:03.156 --> 0:13:08.276 reason why we as a union kept saying let's reopen 0:13:08.396 --> 0:13:14.036 elementary schools fulsomely and hang back on middle and high school. 0:13:14.076 --> 0:13:17.676 But I think the dissonance was that the government, the 0:13:17.796 --> 0:13:21.436 people who were supposed to be out there basically saying 0:13:21.796 --> 0:13:24.316 this is what we know about the science, this is 0:13:24.356 --> 0:13:29.516 what's happening, they weren't trusted for a whole mess of reasons. 0:13:30.276 --> 0:13:33.316 What you're seeing because of the disinformation in the United 0:13:33.316 --> 0:13:38.116 States is that you had lots of cross information, and 0:13:38.196 --> 0:13:41.716 I think that made things much much worse. But we 0:13:41.796 --> 0:13:44.996 saw it as well in the battery of experts we 0:13:44.996 --> 0:13:48.236 were talking to, and part of what we were trying 0:13:48.276 --> 0:13:53.316 to do was create trust and transparency that if we 0:13:53.396 --> 0:13:57.836 had these safeguards in elementary schools, meaning the mass, the 0:13:58.276 --> 0:14:05.276 physical distancing, decent enough ventilation that we believed, our union believed, 0:14:05.436 --> 0:14:09.196 I believed that we could actually keep people safe in 0:14:09.236 --> 0:14:14.836 elementary schools because of what the epidemiologists were telling us. 0:14:16.076 --> 0:14:19.196 Randy drawing back a little bit from the particularities of 0:14:19.236 --> 0:14:22.196 the last year and change, and that must be hard 0:14:22.236 --> 0:14:25.236 to do, having been probably twenty four seven, three sixty 0:14:25.236 --> 0:14:27.836 five living through them, I want to ask you about 0:14:27.996 --> 0:14:31.836 the broader trend seen in sort of broader historical terms. 0:14:32.036 --> 0:14:35.876 The last fifty years have seen an enormous decline in 0:14:35.916 --> 0:14:39.076 the power of private sector unions, that is, the unions 0:14:39.116 --> 0:14:41.676 that do their negotiating every day on the opposite side 0:14:41.676 --> 0:14:45.276 of the table from classic capital right from management of 0:14:45.636 --> 0:14:52.596 private entities. But while they have declined, public sector unions 0:14:52.636 --> 0:14:58.076 that negotiate typically across the table from governments, have not 0:14:58.196 --> 0:15:00.556 declined to the same degree, and in some ways have 0:15:00.676 --> 0:15:04.276 actually done reasonably well for themselves, measured, for example, the 0:15:04.596 --> 0:15:06.036 maybe not by the fight you had to go through 0:15:06.036 --> 0:15:09.436 over the last year and change, but by your outcomes. Well, 0:15:09.876 --> 0:15:13.116 let me just put it this way. Union decline didn't 0:15:13.156 --> 0:15:18.196 just happen simply because of globalization or because of the 0:15:18.356 --> 0:15:23.316 Third and fourth Industrial Revolution, there is a fifty year 0:15:23.596 --> 0:15:30.156 assault on unionization. The managerial interests and capitalists interests in 0:15:30.196 --> 0:15:36.436 the country made a decision that shared prosperity was not 0:15:36.636 --> 0:15:41.116 one of their goals. Now fast forward to now, people see, 0:15:41.436 --> 0:15:46.796 including many capitalists, that when you have this level of inequity, 0:15:47.196 --> 0:15:51.356 there's a real problem in the country. And you have, frankly, 0:15:51.916 --> 0:15:56.356 the president who is more supportive of unions as an 0:15:56.396 --> 0:16:01.756 economic theory for lifting wages and lifting voices and prosperity 0:16:01.756 --> 0:16:06.876 of workers than probably any other president beforehand, inclusive of FDR. 0:16:07.156 --> 0:16:10.916 Now what happened in the public sector is that take teachers, 0:16:11.116 --> 0:16:16.076 who are now more unionized than any other group of employees. 0:16:16.596 --> 0:16:21.836 They understood that individually they had no power or very 0:16:21.916 --> 0:16:26.636 little power, and so they understood that getting together and 0:16:26.756 --> 0:16:30.836 trying to create some power was important in order to 0:16:30.916 --> 0:16:34.876 have better incomes, better conditions, and being able to do 0:16:34.916 --> 0:16:38.196 their jobs better. And so you see that as well 0:16:38.476 --> 0:16:43.156 with other public sector unions. But the point is, we 0:16:43.236 --> 0:16:45.916 do not have the kind of power that the right 0:16:45.996 --> 0:16:49.316 wing attributes to us. They attribute it to us so 0:16:49.356 --> 0:16:52.356 that they can try to slay us. What we've seen 0:16:53.316 --> 0:16:56.636 in the last ten years is that unions have gotten 0:16:56.676 --> 0:17:01.076 more popular. You see this in the Gallop polling every 0:17:01.276 --> 0:17:05.596 Labor Day, and that's because people want to have some 0:17:05.716 --> 0:17:10.716 degree of agency over their lives. If we use the 0:17:10.796 --> 0:17:15.516 collective wisdom of educators and use collective bargaining to try 0:17:15.516 --> 0:17:20.196 to actually make education better than that a win win situation. 0:17:20.356 --> 0:17:23.276 But is also true of people who work in private 0:17:23.316 --> 0:17:25.876 sector unions. But one of the big differences is that 0:17:25.956 --> 0:17:28.796 the public sector is negotiating with people who are elected, 0:17:29.396 --> 0:17:32.996 and so the public sector unions can participate in trying 0:17:33.036 --> 0:17:37.476 to vote for support and encourage the election of public 0:17:37.476 --> 0:17:42.156 servants who will be responsive to the unions interests and needs, 0:17:42.276 --> 0:17:44.636 whereas if you work in a private sector union, you don't, 0:17:44.676 --> 0:17:47.876 for the most part, yet to participate in electing management. 0:17:48.916 --> 0:17:53.236 Surely that's a significant part of how public sector unions 0:17:53.596 --> 0:17:58.276 justifiably exercise power, is it not? So? As a member 0:17:58.316 --> 0:18:03.516 of a union, Noah, who actually pushed for reforms in 0:18:03.596 --> 0:18:08.236 New York City that our members could no longer run 0:18:08.316 --> 0:18:12.516 for school board, I think that's a false equivalency and 0:18:12.636 --> 0:18:18.596 a false reading of power. I think that the issue 0:18:18.676 --> 0:18:22.036 has been that in the private sector, we are down 0:18:22.076 --> 0:18:25.436 to less than seven percent of people in unions, and 0:18:25.516 --> 0:18:28.916 therefore we don't have the density that we used to 0:18:28.956 --> 0:18:33.076 have in terms of community. I think the issue is 0:18:33.636 --> 0:18:37.716 that what unions end up doing, both in the public 0:18:37.756 --> 0:18:42.396 and the private sector, is that we try to get 0:18:42.636 --> 0:18:48.196 people who are pro working people elected in positions of power. 0:18:48.676 --> 0:18:52.516 So I think that that's just a canard that is 0:18:52.716 --> 0:18:57.516 used to try to undermine having unions throughout the nation. 0:18:58.276 --> 0:19:05.356 From the standpoint of classic Marxian analysis, unions were an 0:19:05.356 --> 0:19:10.396 attempt to solve the social problem of the struggle between 0:19:11.036 --> 0:19:15.196 labor and capital. To at least more moderate people influenced 0:19:15.196 --> 0:19:18.876 by Marx let's say, socialists or social democrats, labor unionism 0:19:18.916 --> 0:19:21.996 seemed like it was supposed to be, in its glory period, 0:19:22.076 --> 0:19:25.356 say up through the early nineteen sixties, a kind of 0:19:25.676 --> 0:19:29.316 semi permanent solution to this struggle. Now, as you said, 0:19:29.396 --> 0:19:32.876 fewer than seven percent of private sector workers are unionized, 0:19:33.476 --> 0:19:36.796 and that means that capital has won just a tremendous 0:19:36.916 --> 0:19:40.396 victory over labor. So isn't that a tragedy from the 0:19:40.436 --> 0:19:42.396 standpoint of labor, I mean, doesn't it tell the story 0:19:42.436 --> 0:19:46.236 of labor unionism as mostly having a succeeded for some 0:19:46.316 --> 0:19:49.036 period of time, but then historically no longer continue to 0:19:49.076 --> 0:19:52.676 succeed with the public sector unions almost as a kind 0:19:52.716 --> 0:19:57.516 of accidental survival because they're not fighting against capital directly. 0:19:58.516 --> 0:20:01.196 So I'm going to answer it in the same way 0:20:01.236 --> 0:20:03.956 as I answered it before, because I think that the 0:20:04.076 --> 0:20:09.036 labor movement in the United States is different than Marxian 0:20:09.156 --> 0:20:13.436 in theology. The labor movement in the United States was 0:20:13.556 --> 0:20:18.556 about trying to create a voice and trying to empower 0:20:19.276 --> 0:20:24.036 working folks to actually have a bigger piece of the 0:20:24.076 --> 0:20:30.196 economic pie. And in modern labor parlance, those of us 0:20:30.236 --> 0:20:34.316 who have been in the public sector, when we have 0:20:34.916 --> 0:20:39.916 higher density, we have better outcomes in terms education. You 0:20:40.036 --> 0:20:44.356 see it in terms of Massachusetts versus Mississippi. And so 0:20:44.516 --> 0:20:46.796 what I would say is in the private sector, when 0:20:46.836 --> 0:20:49.756 you have higher density, you see it in terms of 0:20:50.076 --> 0:20:54.156 higher wages and things like that. So if the public 0:20:54.236 --> 0:20:58.476 good writ large is how working people can have a 0:20:58.556 --> 0:21:02.356 better piece of the economic pie, how they can have 0:21:02.796 --> 0:21:07.276 their piece of the American dream, then unions are aligned 0:21:07.356 --> 0:21:11.276 with that and are trying to make that happen. But 0:21:11.316 --> 0:21:14.156 if you don't have enough density, you're not going to 0:21:14.276 --> 0:21:28.116 make that happen economically. We'll be right back, Randy. I 0:21:28.116 --> 0:21:30.036 want to ask you about something that's been very much 0:21:30.076 --> 0:21:32.836 on my mind. In light of the debates over critical 0:21:32.916 --> 0:21:35.556 race theory in the sixteen nineteen project, a number of 0:21:35.556 --> 0:21:39.716 states have adopted or proposed legislation that would prohibit the 0:21:39.756 --> 0:21:42.516 teaching of certain points of view, or at least what 0:21:42.636 --> 0:21:45.956 they those statutes try to present as a certain point 0:21:45.996 --> 0:21:49.276 of view. Now, at one time, it was an interest 0:21:49.316 --> 0:21:52.276 of unions in teachers unions and of many individual teachers 0:21:52.876 --> 0:21:57.076 to fight against legislation that would restrict what a teacher 0:21:57.116 --> 0:22:00.956 could or couldn't teach. In the famous Scopes monkey trial 0:22:01.316 --> 0:22:04.196 which involved the ASAU, not a union, but nevertheless, you know, 0:22:04.236 --> 0:22:08.516 the original party there was the teacher who taught evolution, 0:22:08.636 --> 0:22:11.876 allowed himself to be convicted of teaching evolution in order 0:22:11.876 --> 0:22:14.916 to produce a test case, claiming initially a free speech 0:22:14.956 --> 0:22:17.716 right to teach whatever he wanted to teach. Now that's 0:22:17.716 --> 0:22:20.156 not exactly the way the law has evolved. But I'm 0:22:20.156 --> 0:22:23.996 wondering from the standpoint of your union, when you see 0:22:24.076 --> 0:22:27.076 laws that are past that restrict what teachers can teach, 0:22:27.116 --> 0:22:29.476 that say, a certain point of view cannot be taught. 0:22:30.356 --> 0:22:33.116 Do you take a stance against that, or do you 0:22:33.156 --> 0:22:36.556 see that as sort of part and parcel of legislation 0:22:36.596 --> 0:22:39.996 and lots of states that dictates curriculum and that therefore 0:22:40.076 --> 0:22:43.156 appropriately tells teachers what they can and can't teach. No, 0:22:43.316 --> 0:22:45.636 we take a stance against that. We take a stance 0:22:45.676 --> 0:22:48.636 against that for a few reasons. One, there's a big 0:22:48.716 --> 0:22:53.236 difference between K twelve and higher education in terms of 0:22:53.276 --> 0:22:57.156 the freedom to teach and the latitude over academic freedom. 0:22:57.596 --> 0:23:01.196 So we know in the main that in pre K 0:23:01.436 --> 0:23:06.796 through secondary through high school, state laws require a certain 0:23:06.916 --> 0:23:11.596 curriculum and we should have latitude within that curriculum to 0:23:11.636 --> 0:23:16.516 meet the needs of kids. However, this has become just 0:23:16.636 --> 0:23:22.716 like I would say the biology versus the evolution debate 0:23:22.916 --> 0:23:27.476 that was exemplified by the Scopes trial. We're now into 0:23:27.516 --> 0:23:32.676 a moral issue. And the moral issue is how do 0:23:32.796 --> 0:23:37.476 we teach honest history and teach the truth? And what 0:23:37.676 --> 0:23:43.076 these laws are actually doing is that they are limiting 0:23:43.396 --> 0:23:48.756 what our kids will get and mostly helping our kids 0:23:48.836 --> 0:23:53.436 become critical thinkers. And so I think that Mark Milly, 0:23:53.516 --> 0:23:55.876 the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said it 0:23:56.636 --> 0:24:02.276 incredibly well when he was getting roasted about why the 0:24:02.356 --> 0:24:10.676 military would engage in conversations about diversity, an inclusion, and 0:24:10.956 --> 0:24:16.036 dealing with racism. He wanted to understand White Ridge, and 0:24:16.156 --> 0:24:20.156 he wanted to understand why there would be this kind 0:24:20.196 --> 0:24:25.556 of insurrection on January sixth that could have decimated our democracy. 0:24:26.156 --> 0:24:29.396 And that is the same thing that a high school 0:24:29.436 --> 0:24:33.236 teacher would want to do for our kids. We would 0:24:33.356 --> 0:24:38.756 want the weeks after January sixth to try to understand it, 0:24:38.956 --> 0:24:44.316 to impart that understanding to our students, not to tell 0:24:44.396 --> 0:24:47.196 them what to think, but to give them the skills 0:24:47.276 --> 0:24:50.636 and knowledge, which means that you have to look at 0:24:50.676 --> 0:24:55.556 an issue from all sides, including what has happened in 0:24:55.676 --> 0:25:01.476 terms of our history that necessarily can make people uncomfortable. 0:25:01.876 --> 0:25:05.836 So what has happened here is that in this zeal 0:25:06.436 --> 0:25:11.596 to have a cultural war, what these laws are going 0:25:11.636 --> 0:25:14.916 to do are going to actually stop us, or attempt 0:25:14.996 --> 0:25:18.676 to stop us from helping to teach kids how to 0:25:18.796 --> 0:25:24.196 think and to understand history. This is more reminiscent of 0:25:24.236 --> 0:25:26.836 what they would do in China than what we should 0:25:26.836 --> 0:25:29.556 be doing in the United States. Can I just ask 0:25:29.716 --> 0:25:33.556 before we close, Randy, how reciprocal. Do you think of 0:25:33.596 --> 0:25:37.156 this issue as being so if there are teachers who 0:25:37.316 --> 0:25:40.356 teach a perspective on say, the history of race in 0:25:40.396 --> 0:25:43.316 the United States, that you and I would substantively disagree 0:25:43.356 --> 0:25:46.396 with and think is wrong, but which is a perspective 0:25:46.396 --> 0:25:51.036 of opinion, of interpretation of facts rather than facts, and 0:25:51.076 --> 0:25:54.236 they're in school districts that have a curriculum that requires 0:25:54.596 --> 0:25:57.756 a different approach, an approach that say you and I favor, 0:25:58.636 --> 0:26:01.636 would you similarly or would the unions similarly support the 0:26:01.756 --> 0:26:06.556 rights of those teachers to express their opinions in the classroom. 0:26:06.716 --> 0:26:09.876 There's a difference, Noah, between going to be trying to 0:26:09.876 --> 0:26:14.316 be very clear about this. Telling kids what to think 0:26:15.636 --> 0:26:21.636 is not our job. Engaging kids in understanding critical thinking 0:26:21.796 --> 0:26:26.276 and being able to discern fact from fiction is our job. 0:26:26.916 --> 0:26:30.796 And so there are lots of different viewpoints in terms 0:26:30.876 --> 0:26:39.276 of this work. But basic integrity, basic honesty about facts 0:26:39.276 --> 0:26:42.196 that have happened in the past, there's a line there. So, 0:26:42.276 --> 0:26:47.876 for example, if someone is a holocaust denier, I think 0:26:47.916 --> 0:26:51.236 that is inappropriate. Well, that's a matter I think we 0:26:51.236 --> 0:26:53.596 can agree that's a matter of fact. Right. So the 0:26:53.676 --> 0:26:59.516 issue here is we're talking about for example, take sixteen nineteen. 0:27:00.076 --> 0:27:04.716 Is that a fact that in sixteen nineteen was the 0:27:04.796 --> 0:27:12.476 first year that ships carried waved Africans to this country, 0:27:12.596 --> 0:27:15.676 and using that as a jumping off point, I think 0:27:15.716 --> 0:27:21.316 that's perfectly appropriate. The issue about whether or not one 0:27:21.436 --> 0:27:26.156 then teaches is their systemic racism in each and everything 0:27:26.196 --> 0:27:29.276 that we do. I think that's something that happens in 0:27:29.356 --> 0:27:33.836 law schools and something that happens in higher education. But 0:27:34.036 --> 0:27:38.236 in K twelve we start with the fact of what 0:27:38.436 --> 0:27:42.836 enslavement was and what that means and what the effects 0:27:42.876 --> 0:27:47.076 have been. So answer is I think we have to 0:27:47.156 --> 0:27:51.356 have a wide birth in terms of whatever people's personal 0:27:51.396 --> 0:27:57.076