1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:24,356 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background the show 2 00:00:24,396 --> 00:00:27,516 Speaker 1: where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:27,996 --> 00:00:33,036 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. One of the most remarkable controversies around 4 00:00:33,076 --> 00:00:36,436 Speaker 1: the exercise of power that took place during the entirety 5 00:00:36,676 --> 00:00:39,716 Speaker 1: of the COVID nineteen pandemic was the struggle in the 6 00:00:39,796 --> 00:00:43,876 Speaker 1: United States between teachers and some jurisdictions who were afraid 7 00:00:43,956 --> 00:00:46,396 Speaker 1: to go back to school because they were concerned about 8 00:00:46,396 --> 00:00:51,036 Speaker 1: catching COVID and some parents who really wanted their kids 9 00:00:51,156 --> 00:00:54,916 Speaker 1: to be back in school. At the center of these 10 00:00:54,956 --> 00:00:59,676 Speaker 1: debates were teachers unions themselves, one of the most significant 11 00:00:59,836 --> 00:01:03,756 Speaker 1: remaining forms of labor unionism in America today and also 12 00:01:03,876 --> 00:01:08,396 Speaker 1: in certain respects among the most controversial. To discuss the 13 00:01:08,476 --> 00:01:13,516 Speaker 1: question of public sector unions power, COVID nineteen and where 14 00:01:13,596 --> 00:01:17,316 Speaker 1: we're going on this complex of difficult issues. We're joined 15 00:01:17,356 --> 00:01:21,356 Speaker 1: by Randy Weingart. Randy is the head of the American 16 00:01:21,396 --> 00:01:25,916 Speaker 1: Federation of Teachers, the second largest teachers union in the country. 17 00:01:26,196 --> 00:01:29,356 Speaker 1: That makes her one of the most powerful, visible and 18 00:01:29,596 --> 00:01:33,196 Speaker 1: vocal union leaders in the United States today, and she's 19 00:01:33,196 --> 00:01:36,116 Speaker 1: also a person who, as a lawyer, has a powerful 20 00:01:36,196 --> 00:01:39,476 Speaker 1: understanding of the constitutional and legal issues around unionism, as 21 00:01:39,476 --> 00:01:43,516 Speaker 1: well as the history of unionism and its rise at fall. Randy, 22 00:01:43,596 --> 00:01:49,276 Speaker 1: thank you so much for being I want to talk 23 00:01:49,276 --> 00:01:52,236 Speaker 1: to you about the grand topics that you've been so 24 00:01:52,356 --> 00:01:56,156 Speaker 1: engaged in over the last fifteen months, but I also 25 00:01:56,236 --> 00:01:58,036 Speaker 1: want to go to the bigger picture. I don't just 26 00:01:58,116 --> 00:02:02,036 Speaker 1: want to talk more about COVID and closures, but I 27 00:02:02,076 --> 00:02:06,076 Speaker 1: want to talk about what has happened to unions, both 28 00:02:06,116 --> 00:02:09,476 Speaker 1: private sector and public sector unions over recent decade and 29 00:02:09,556 --> 00:02:14,276 Speaker 1: what that's meant for the power of workers taken as 30 00:02:14,316 --> 00:02:16,916 Speaker 1: a whole. So I guess the place I want to 31 00:02:16,916 --> 00:02:19,916 Speaker 1: start is with a kind of middle level question. Having 32 00:02:20,036 --> 00:02:23,236 Speaker 1: lived through and been a central actor in the very 33 00:02:23,276 --> 00:02:28,156 Speaker 1: intense debates around school closing and school openings, do you 34 00:02:28,316 --> 00:02:32,876 Speaker 1: think that the power of at least public sector unions 35 00:02:33,076 --> 00:02:38,916 Speaker 1: like the AFT has increased or decreased through the process 36 00:02:39,036 --> 00:02:41,676 Speaker 1: of the last year and a half. That is a 37 00:02:41,716 --> 00:02:47,476 Speaker 1: really good question. I think that understanding of who teachers 38 00:02:47,516 --> 00:02:51,796 Speaker 1: are and what they need to do the work to 39 00:02:51,836 --> 00:02:56,956 Speaker 1: help students has increased, and I think the needing to 40 00:02:57,076 --> 00:03:03,316 Speaker 1: have organization and a union, as a Philip Randolph said 41 00:03:03,396 --> 00:03:07,236 Speaker 1: so many years ago as a way to create power 42 00:03:07,956 --> 00:03:14,036 Speaker 1: that has increased, certainly amongst workers if you watch what 43 00:03:14,116 --> 00:03:17,956 Speaker 1: the right wing does. Certainly our power has increased. But 44 00:03:18,196 --> 00:03:21,956 Speaker 1: oftentimes what the right wing does is to pretend we 45 00:03:22,036 --> 00:03:25,116 Speaker 1: have far more power than we really do, to try 46 00:03:25,116 --> 00:03:29,156 Speaker 1: to slay that as opposed to actually listen to what 47 00:03:29,156 --> 00:03:33,116 Speaker 1: we're saying. So I'm balanced. I think the answer is yes, 48 00:03:33,876 --> 00:03:39,036 Speaker 1: But it's certainly not enough power to actually ensure that 49 00:03:39,636 --> 00:03:46,116 Speaker 1: working people and working communities, particularly parents, kids, and those 50 00:03:46,156 --> 00:03:48,596 Speaker 1: who make a difference in their lives like teachers and 51 00:03:48,676 --> 00:03:53,196 Speaker 1: emergency medical workers and meat packers and things like that, 52 00:03:53,876 --> 00:03:58,316 Speaker 1: had the safety conditions that they needed for us to 53 00:03:58,476 --> 00:04:03,156 Speaker 1: actually navigate through COVID better than we did. Is it 54 00:04:03,156 --> 00:04:06,596 Speaker 1: fair to say, Randy, that in just about every case, 55 00:04:06,836 --> 00:04:10,396 Speaker 1: at least the ones that I know of, teachers unions 56 00:04:10,436 --> 00:04:15,156 Speaker 1: in the end one the fights about back to school, 57 00:04:15,196 --> 00:04:17,236 Speaker 1: or I don't know of an instance. Maybe I'm wrong 58 00:04:17,796 --> 00:04:22,076 Speaker 1: where a union was essentially coerced back to work when 59 00:04:22,076 --> 00:04:24,316 Speaker 1: it wasn't ready to do so, or do I have 60 00:04:24,396 --> 00:04:29,236 Speaker 1: that wrong? I think where there were unions that had 61 00:04:29,716 --> 00:04:35,476 Speaker 1: decent relationships with parents and with superintendents, and in states 62 00:04:35,556 --> 00:04:39,596 Speaker 1: that understood that safety was a real concern, like safety 63 00:04:39,716 --> 00:04:43,156 Speaker 1: was the way back in. I think that we did 64 00:04:43,316 --> 00:04:47,756 Speaker 1: win because we were able to show that safety was 65 00:04:47,796 --> 00:04:52,476 Speaker 1: the way back into schooling, not the obstacle to school 66 00:04:53,036 --> 00:04:56,036 Speaker 1: But there were lots of different places across the country 67 00:04:56,476 --> 00:05:01,156 Speaker 1: where there are no unions and where governors pretended that 68 00:05:01,276 --> 00:05:05,836 Speaker 1: COVID didn't exist, but where there were unions, where people 69 00:05:05,916 --> 00:05:10,196 Speaker 1: saw that safety really was the way in. I do 70 00:05:10,356 --> 00:05:14,316 Speaker 1: think we were able to reopen schools safely for in 71 00:05:14,356 --> 00:05:17,996 Speaker 1: person learning. The issue about in person learning was never 72 00:05:18,396 --> 00:05:23,556 Speaker 1: the debate and the dispute. Any educator pre COVID would 73 00:05:23,596 --> 00:05:26,556 Speaker 1: have told you how important in person learning was. I 74 00:05:26,596 --> 00:05:31,756 Speaker 1: do think that COVID has made the case for why 75 00:05:31,996 --> 00:05:35,836 Speaker 1: unions are important, because who else is going to protect 76 00:05:36,076 --> 00:05:39,916 Speaker 1: the safety and well being of the workers and of 77 00:05:39,996 --> 00:05:45,196 Speaker 1: the people who use public services and who use private 78 00:05:45,196 --> 00:05:49,556 Speaker 1: manufacturing services like beat processing plants. Randy, what do you 79 00:05:49,596 --> 00:05:53,396 Speaker 1: think of as the costs of those victories? So I 80 00:05:53,436 --> 00:05:56,356 Speaker 1: hear you saying, and this sounds sensible to me that 81 00:05:56,476 --> 00:05:58,716 Speaker 1: both for people who are in unions and for people 82 00:05:58,756 --> 00:06:01,596 Speaker 1: who need them but aren't in them, one of the 83 00:06:01,596 --> 00:06:04,236 Speaker 1: big lessons off COVID was without a union to protect 84 00:06:04,276 --> 00:06:06,516 Speaker 1: you you can be put in a situation where you 85 00:06:06,556 --> 00:06:09,276 Speaker 1: have to return to the workplace under conditions which you 86 00:06:09,316 --> 00:06:12,396 Speaker 1: don't experience as safe, and that seems like a powerful argument. 87 00:06:13,036 --> 00:06:16,916 Speaker 1: On the other hand, there was pretty clearly some public backlash, 88 00:06:16,956 --> 00:06:21,916 Speaker 1: at least among upper middle class parents about the thought 89 00:06:22,236 --> 00:06:25,476 Speaker 1: that the school unions, the teachers unions, were too powerful 90 00:06:25,596 --> 00:06:28,716 Speaker 1: in the sense that there was a genuine dispute about 91 00:06:28,756 --> 00:06:31,556 Speaker 1: whether kids should go back to school and when, and 92 00:06:31,796 --> 00:06:33,876 Speaker 1: as you were saying, the unions did for the most 93 00:06:33,916 --> 00:06:38,356 Speaker 1: part win those fights. Now, obviously one of the things 94 00:06:38,396 --> 00:06:40,836 Speaker 1: about exercising powers you can't make everybody happy all of 95 00:06:40,876 --> 00:06:42,436 Speaker 1: the time, and you have to act on behalf of 96 00:06:42,436 --> 00:06:46,316 Speaker 1: your constituents. But I'm wondering how you think about the 97 00:06:46,436 --> 00:06:51,556 Speaker 1: overall costs to teachers unions of the victories that you want, 98 00:06:51,596 --> 00:06:53,956 Speaker 1: again conceding that they were victories and also that it 99 00:06:53,996 --> 00:06:56,916 Speaker 1: was probably good that you won. Nevertheless, there's still some 100 00:06:56,956 --> 00:07:01,956 Speaker 1: real world downsides. So look, I think that the fact 101 00:07:02,076 --> 00:07:06,196 Speaker 1: that you saw the tensions between parents and teachers were 102 00:07:06,196 --> 00:07:08,636 Speaker 1: really terrible. This is part of the reason why you 103 00:07:08,756 --> 00:07:11,876 Speaker 1: hear be hesitating when somebody says is it a win? 104 00:07:12,076 --> 00:07:15,516 Speaker 1: Is it a loss? Teachers want what kids need, and 105 00:07:15,756 --> 00:07:19,396 Speaker 1: most of the time, for us to be successful in 106 00:07:19,516 --> 00:07:23,076 Speaker 1: educating kids, parents need to be our partners. So when 107 00:07:23,116 --> 00:07:26,876 Speaker 1: you see dissonance in that and that there was a 108 00:07:26,996 --> 00:07:33,596 Speaker 1: real disagreement, particularly you saw in upper middle class households, 109 00:07:33,676 --> 00:07:37,556 Speaker 1: that is a real problem and we need to reconnect together. 110 00:07:38,436 --> 00:07:42,636 Speaker 1: But I think what also happened is that you see 111 00:07:43,116 --> 00:07:49,276 Speaker 1: the inequality of how COVID affected people, because in black 112 00:07:49,316 --> 00:07:54,276 Speaker 1: and brown communities, where COVID affected people much more lethally, 113 00:07:54,956 --> 00:07:57,916 Speaker 1: you see much more of a shared understanding. And frankly, 114 00:07:58,396 --> 00:08:02,276 Speaker 1: in poll results that we've seen, we've done parent polling 115 00:08:02,396 --> 00:08:07,276 Speaker 1: with several other groups, there's overwhelming support in that polling 116 00:08:07,636 --> 00:08:13,156 Speaker 1: for educators, education unions, and for public schools. So I 117 00:08:13,196 --> 00:08:18,436 Speaker 1: think you saw a real divide based upon how COVID 118 00:08:18,876 --> 00:08:25,396 Speaker 1: actually impacted people's personal health and their community's personal health. 119 00:08:25,756 --> 00:08:29,476 Speaker 1: In places where it didn't have the kind of impact, 120 00:08:29,636 --> 00:08:32,156 Speaker 1: you saw a real friction. In places where it had 121 00:08:32,236 --> 00:08:35,876 Speaker 1: real impact, you saw much less friction because there was 122 00:08:35,916 --> 00:08:40,156 Speaker 1: a shared lived experience. And I think that the least 123 00:08:40,196 --> 00:08:42,756 Speaker 1: thing I'd say is one of the things that we 124 00:08:42,796 --> 00:08:45,916 Speaker 1: saw that was done better in other countries than in 125 00:08:45,956 --> 00:08:51,116 Speaker 1: America was that in other countries the public health concerns 126 00:08:51,476 --> 00:08:54,956 Speaker 1: and the honesty about them and the transparency about it 127 00:08:55,036 --> 00:08:58,556 Speaker 1: and how to deal with the public health concerns created 128 00:08:58,596 --> 00:09:01,796 Speaker 1: a shared community, which it didn't in the United States. 129 00:09:02,276 --> 00:09:05,316 Speaker 1: Do you think that the sense that many teachers have 130 00:09:05,556 --> 00:09:08,716 Speaker 1: of not being fully appreciated in all that they do, 131 00:09:08,796 --> 00:09:11,276 Speaker 1: that is to say, not having the ordinary person understand 132 00:09:11,316 --> 00:09:14,916 Speaker 1: the full range of things the teachers do was exacerbated 133 00:09:15,076 --> 00:09:18,036 Speaker 1: by the struggles that in some places, as you were describing, 134 00:09:18,116 --> 00:09:20,596 Speaker 1: did happen over COVID. I mean, I certainly had the 135 00:09:20,596 --> 00:09:22,476 Speaker 1: sense from my friends who are public school teachers that 136 00:09:22,476 --> 00:09:26,076 Speaker 1: they felt much more misunderstood even than they usually do, 137 00:09:26,196 --> 00:09:29,516 Speaker 1: in this last period of time. Yes, I would actually 138 00:09:29,556 --> 00:09:34,276 Speaker 1: divide it up into three different periods of time March 139 00:09:34,356 --> 00:09:40,156 Speaker 1: twenty twenty through June July twenty twenty, the fall of 140 00:09:40,276 --> 00:09:46,316 Speaker 1: twenty twenty through basically November December, and then the winter 141 00:09:46,556 --> 00:09:50,276 Speaker 1: spring of twenty twenty one. And I think what happened 142 00:09:50,356 --> 00:09:54,676 Speaker 1: was between March and June of twenty twenty there was 143 00:09:54,716 --> 00:09:58,476 Speaker 1: a shared sense of teachers and parents that we're in 144 00:09:58,556 --> 00:10:03,076 Speaker 1: it together. We're all trying to figure out these remote platforms. 145 00:10:03,196 --> 00:10:05,956 Speaker 1: We're trying to do the best we can, and there 146 00:10:06,076 --> 00:10:10,116 Speaker 1: was huge appreciation for teachers because parents at that point 147 00:10:10,276 --> 00:10:14,196 Speaker 1: had a front row seat because they're listening on the 148 00:10:14,196 --> 00:10:17,516 Speaker 1: computer to what a teacher is doing, trying to pull 149 00:10:17,596 --> 00:10:20,876 Speaker 1: things out of kids, trying to make kids feel okay, 150 00:10:20,876 --> 00:10:23,396 Speaker 1: trying to do that. So I think that you saw 151 00:10:23,956 --> 00:10:29,516 Speaker 1: actually more appreciation than teachers normally get. Between March and June, 152 00:10:30,236 --> 00:10:34,356 Speaker 1: when the data started coming in over the summer to 153 00:10:34,436 --> 00:10:40,036 Speaker 1: the fall, combined with Trump and Divorce's refusal to actually 154 00:10:40,676 --> 00:10:44,316 Speaker 1: implement with fidelity the CDC guidelines or give us any 155 00:10:44,396 --> 00:10:48,676 Speaker 1: resources to actually do that, you saw data that basically 156 00:10:48,716 --> 00:10:52,316 Speaker 1: said kids don't get as affected, and Trump and Divorce 157 00:10:52,396 --> 00:10:55,756 Speaker 1: were saying, okay, because kids don't get as affected, all 158 00:10:55,756 --> 00:10:57,916 Speaker 1: of you have to be back in school, with no 159 00:10:58,076 --> 00:11:02,996 Speaker 1: understanding that the teachers were affected and their lives could 160 00:11:03,036 --> 00:11:07,236 Speaker 1: be at risk, and unlike nurses and doctors, were getting 161 00:11:07,276 --> 00:11:10,356 Speaker 1: none of the safeguards that they needed. So that's when 162 00:11:10,396 --> 00:11:14,156 Speaker 1: you saw a lot of real stress and adjita because 163 00:11:14,316 --> 00:11:17,796 Speaker 1: teachers always wanted to be back in school. We saw 164 00:11:17,796 --> 00:11:22,316 Speaker 1: that impolling results throughout the year that if we could 165 00:11:22,356 --> 00:11:25,436 Speaker 1: get the safeguards seventy to eighty percent of MIND members 166 00:11:25,476 --> 00:11:27,396 Speaker 1: said I want to be in school, because we know 167 00:11:27,476 --> 00:11:32,196 Speaker 1: how important that was. The real place which huge stress 168 00:11:32,636 --> 00:11:38,236 Speaker 1: was January through probably March or April, before the vaccines 169 00:11:38,636 --> 00:11:42,476 Speaker 1: were seen as such a game changer, because essentially what 170 00:11:42,516 --> 00:11:46,716 Speaker 1: you saw was that parents were saying to teachers, I 171 00:11:46,796 --> 00:11:49,916 Speaker 1: don't really care whether you feel like you're going to 172 00:11:49,996 --> 00:11:52,916 Speaker 1: get sick or not. My kids need to be in school, 173 00:11:53,356 --> 00:11:56,476 Speaker 1: and teachers who are saying, I want to be in school, 174 00:11:56,836 --> 00:11:58,916 Speaker 1: I just don't want to get sick. So I need 175 00:11:58,916 --> 00:12:02,436 Speaker 1: the safety safeguards and so we need the layered mitigation, 176 00:12:02,556 --> 00:12:06,636 Speaker 1: the testing, and then ultimately the vaccines. And so by 177 00:12:07,076 --> 00:12:11,476 Speaker 1: April and May things had really flipped around. But January, 178 00:12:11,956 --> 00:12:17,236 Speaker 1: February March were very tough. I love that analysis. Do 179 00:12:17,316 --> 00:12:21,156 Speaker 1: you think part of what was so bad January February 180 00:12:21,196 --> 00:12:24,116 Speaker 1: March of twenty twenty one is that there was also 181 00:12:24,196 --> 00:12:27,476 Speaker 1: an emerging view, which I think is still not definitively 182 00:12:27,516 --> 00:12:31,116 Speaker 1: the consensus, but an emerging view among epidemiologists that at 183 00:12:31,156 --> 00:12:34,676 Speaker 1: least for elementary school kids, they were very unlikely to 184 00:12:34,836 --> 00:12:38,156 Speaker 1: be even asymptomatic carriers who were going to pass on 185 00:12:38,276 --> 00:12:41,356 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen when I speak to epidemiologists now about what 186 00:12:41,396 --> 00:12:43,676 Speaker 1: could have been done differently. One of the things they 187 00:12:43,676 --> 00:12:45,316 Speaker 1: say is, we didn't know it at the time, but 188 00:12:45,356 --> 00:12:47,676 Speaker 1: if this ever happens again, we might have been able 189 00:12:47,716 --> 00:12:50,836 Speaker 1: to keep open schools at the elementary school level. And 190 00:12:51,036 --> 00:12:52,916 Speaker 1: so was that part of what was happening at that 191 00:12:52,956 --> 00:12:55,756 Speaker 1: period of time that that view was starting to filter through. 192 00:12:56,756 --> 00:12:59,956 Speaker 1: I think that view had started to filter through last 193 00:13:00,036 --> 00:13:03,156 Speaker 1: summer through September and October, which is part of the 194 00:13:03,156 --> 00:13:08,276 Speaker 1: reason why we as a union kept saying let's reopen 195 00:13:08,396 --> 00:13:14,036 Speaker 1: elementary schools fulsomely and hang back on middle and high school. 196 00:13:14,076 --> 00:13:17,676 Speaker 1: But I think the dissonance was that the government, the 197 00:13:17,796 --> 00:13:21,436 Speaker 1: people who were supposed to be out there basically saying 198 00:13:21,796 --> 00:13:24,316 Speaker 1: this is what we know about the science, this is 199 00:13:24,356 --> 00:13:29,516 Speaker 1: what's happening, they weren't trusted for a whole mess of reasons. 200 00:13:30,276 --> 00:13:33,316 Speaker 1: What you're seeing because of the disinformation in the United 201 00:13:33,316 --> 00:13:38,116 Speaker 1: States is that you had lots of cross information, and 202 00:13:38,196 --> 00:13:41,716 Speaker 1: I think that made things much much worse. But we 203 00:13:41,796 --> 00:13:44,996 Speaker 1: saw it as well in the battery of experts we 204 00:13:44,996 --> 00:13:48,236 Speaker 1: were talking to, and part of what we were trying 205 00:13:48,276 --> 00:13:53,316 Speaker 1: to do was create trust and transparency that if we 206 00:13:53,396 --> 00:13:57,836 Speaker 1: had these safeguards in elementary schools, meaning the mass, the 207 00:13:58,276 --> 00:14:05,276 Speaker 1: physical distancing, decent enough ventilation that we believed, our union believed, 208 00:14:05,436 --> 00:14:09,196 Speaker 1: I believed that we could actually keep people safe in 209 00:14:09,236 --> 00:14:14,836 Speaker 1: elementary schools because of what the epidemiologists were telling us. 210 00:14:16,076 --> 00:14:19,196 Speaker 1: Randy drawing back a little bit from the particularities of 211 00:14:19,236 --> 00:14:22,196 Speaker 1: the last year and change, and that must be hard 212 00:14:22,236 --> 00:14:25,236 Speaker 1: to do, having been probably twenty four seven, three sixty 213 00:14:25,236 --> 00:14:27,836 Speaker 1: five living through them, I want to ask you about 214 00:14:27,996 --> 00:14:31,836 Speaker 1: the broader trend seen in sort of broader historical terms. 215 00:14:32,036 --> 00:14:35,876 Speaker 1: The last fifty years have seen an enormous decline in 216 00:14:35,916 --> 00:14:39,076 Speaker 1: the power of private sector unions, that is, the unions 217 00:14:39,116 --> 00:14:41,676 Speaker 1: that do their negotiating every day on the opposite side 218 00:14:41,676 --> 00:14:45,276 Speaker 1: of the table from classic capital right from management of 219 00:14:45,636 --> 00:14:52,596 Speaker 1: private entities. But while they have declined, public sector unions 220 00:14:52,636 --> 00:14:58,076 Speaker 1: that negotiate typically across the table from governments, have not 221 00:14:58,196 --> 00:15:00,556 Speaker 1: declined to the same degree, and in some ways have 222 00:15:00,676 --> 00:15:04,276 Speaker 1: actually done reasonably well for themselves, measured, for example, the 223 00:15:04,596 --> 00:15:06,036 Speaker 1: maybe not by the fight you had to go through 224 00:15:06,036 --> 00:15:09,436 Speaker 1: over the last year and change, but by your outcomes. Well, 225 00:15:09,876 --> 00:15:13,116 Speaker 1: let me just put it this way. Union decline didn't 226 00:15:13,156 --> 00:15:18,196 Speaker 1: just happen simply because of globalization or because of the 227 00:15:18,356 --> 00:15:23,316 Speaker 1: Third and fourth Industrial Revolution, there is a fifty year 228 00:15:23,596 --> 00:15:30,156 Speaker 1: assault on unionization. The managerial interests and capitalists interests in 229 00:15:30,196 --> 00:15:36,436 Speaker 1: the country made a decision that shared prosperity was not 230 00:15:36,636 --> 00:15:41,116 Speaker 1: one of their goals. Now fast forward to now, people see, 231 00:15:41,436 --> 00:15:46,796 Speaker 1: including many capitalists, that when you have this level of inequity, 232 00:15:47,196 --> 00:15:51,356 Speaker 1: there's a real problem in the country. And you have, frankly, 233 00:15:51,916 --> 00:15:56,356 Speaker 1: the president who is more supportive of unions as an 234 00:15:56,396 --> 00:16:01,756 Speaker 1: economic theory for lifting wages and lifting voices and prosperity 235 00:16:01,756 --> 00:16:06,876 Speaker 1: of workers than probably any other president beforehand, inclusive of FDR. 236 00:16:07,156 --> 00:16:10,916 Speaker 1: Now what happened in the public sector is that take teachers, 237 00:16:11,116 --> 00:16:16,076 Speaker 1: who are now more unionized than any other group of employees. 238 00:16:16,596 --> 00:16:21,836 Speaker 1: They understood that individually they had no power or very 239 00:16:21,916 --> 00:16:26,636 Speaker 1: little power, and so they understood that getting together and 240 00:16:26,756 --> 00:16:30,836 Speaker 1: trying to create some power was important in order to 241 00:16:30,916 --> 00:16:34,876 Speaker 1: have better incomes, better conditions, and being able to do 242 00:16:34,916 --> 00:16:38,196 Speaker 1: their jobs better. And so you see that as well 243 00:16:38,476 --> 00:16:43,156 Speaker 1: with other public sector unions. But the point is, we 244 00:16:43,236 --> 00:16:45,916 Speaker 1: do not have the kind of power that the right 245 00:16:45,996 --> 00:16:49,316 Speaker 1: wing attributes to us. They attribute it to us so 246 00:16:49,356 --> 00:16:52,356 Speaker 1: that they can try to slay us. What we've seen 247 00:16:53,316 --> 00:16:56,636 Speaker 1: in the last ten years is that unions have gotten 248 00:16:56,676 --> 00:17:01,076 Speaker 1: more popular. You see this in the Gallop polling every 249 00:17:01,276 --> 00:17:05,596 Speaker 1: Labor Day, and that's because people want to have some 250 00:17:05,716 --> 00:17:10,716 Speaker 1: degree of agency over their lives. If we use the 251 00:17:10,796 --> 00:17:15,516 Speaker 1: collective wisdom of educators and use collective bargaining to try 252 00:17:15,516 --> 00:17:20,196 Speaker 1: to actually make education better than that a win win situation. 253 00:17:20,356 --> 00:17:23,276 Speaker 1: But is also true of people who work in private 254 00:17:23,316 --> 00:17:25,876 Speaker 1: sector unions. But one of the big differences is that 255 00:17:25,956 --> 00:17:28,796 Speaker 1: the public sector is negotiating with people who are elected, 256 00:17:29,396 --> 00:17:32,996 Speaker 1: and so the public sector unions can participate in trying 257 00:17:33,036 --> 00:17:37,476 Speaker 1: to vote for support and encourage the election of public 258 00:17:37,476 --> 00:17:42,156 Speaker 1: servants who will be responsive to the unions interests and needs, 259 00:17:42,276 --> 00:17:44,636 Speaker 1: whereas if you work in a private sector union, you don't, 260 00:17:44,676 --> 00:17:47,876 Speaker 1: for the most part, yet to participate in electing management. 261 00:17:48,916 --> 00:17:53,236 Speaker 1: Surely that's a significant part of how public sector unions 262 00:17:53,596 --> 00:17:58,276 Speaker 1: justifiably exercise power, is it not? So? As a member 263 00:17:58,316 --> 00:18:03,516 Speaker 1: of a union, Noah, who actually pushed for reforms in 264 00:18:03,596 --> 00:18:08,236 Speaker 1: New York City that our members could no longer run 265 00:18:08,316 --> 00:18:12,516 Speaker 1: for school board, I think that's a false equivalency and 266 00:18:12,636 --> 00:18:18,596 Speaker 1: a false reading of power. I think that the issue 267 00:18:18,676 --> 00:18:22,036 Speaker 1: has been that in the private sector, we are down 268 00:18:22,076 --> 00:18:25,436 Speaker 1: to less than seven percent of people in unions, and 269 00:18:25,516 --> 00:18:28,916 Speaker 1: therefore we don't have the density that we used to 270 00:18:28,956 --> 00:18:33,076 Speaker 1: have in terms of community. I think the issue is 271 00:18:33,636 --> 00:18:37,716 Speaker 1: that what unions end up doing, both in the public 272 00:18:37,756 --> 00:18:42,396 Speaker 1: and the private sector, is that we try to get 273 00:18:42,636 --> 00:18:48,196 Speaker 1: people who are pro working people elected in positions of power. 274 00:18:48,676 --> 00:18:52,516 Speaker 1: So I think that that's just a canard that is 275 00:18:52,716 --> 00:18:57,516 Speaker 1: used to try to undermine having unions throughout the nation. 276 00:18:58,276 --> 00:19:05,356 Speaker 1: From the standpoint of classic Marxian analysis, unions were an 277 00:19:05,356 --> 00:19:10,396 Speaker 1: attempt to solve the social problem of the struggle between 278 00:19:11,036 --> 00:19:15,196 Speaker 1: labor and capital. To at least more moderate people influenced 279 00:19:15,196 --> 00:19:18,876 Speaker 1: by Marx let's say, socialists or social democrats, labor unionism 280 00:19:18,916 --> 00:19:21,996 Speaker 1: seemed like it was supposed to be, in its glory period, 281 00:19:22,076 --> 00:19:25,356 Speaker 1: say up through the early nineteen sixties, a kind of 282 00:19:25,676 --> 00:19:29,316 Speaker 1: semi permanent solution to this struggle. Now, as you said, 283 00:19:29,396 --> 00:19:32,876 Speaker 1: fewer than seven percent of private sector workers are unionized, 284 00:19:33,476 --> 00:19:36,796 Speaker 1: and that means that capital has won just a tremendous 285 00:19:36,916 --> 00:19:40,396 Speaker 1: victory over labor. So isn't that a tragedy from the 286 00:19:40,436 --> 00:19:42,396 Speaker 1: standpoint of labor, I mean, doesn't it tell the story 287 00:19:42,436 --> 00:19:46,236 Speaker 1: of labor unionism as mostly having a succeeded for some 288 00:19:46,316 --> 00:19:49,036 Speaker 1: period of time, but then historically no longer continue to 289 00:19:49,076 --> 00:19:52,676 Speaker 1: succeed with the public sector unions almost as a kind 290 00:19:52,716 --> 00:19:57,516 Speaker 1: of accidental survival because they're not fighting against capital directly. 291 00:19:58,516 --> 00:20:01,196 Speaker 1: So I'm going to answer it in the same way 292 00:20:01,236 --> 00:20:03,956 Speaker 1: as I answered it before, because I think that the 293 00:20:04,076 --> 00:20:09,036 Speaker 1: labor movement in the United States is different than Marxian 294 00:20:09,156 --> 00:20:13,436 Speaker 1: in theology. The labor movement in the United States was 295 00:20:13,556 --> 00:20:18,556 Speaker 1: about trying to create a voice and trying to empower 296 00:20:19,276 --> 00:20:24,036 Speaker 1: working folks to actually have a bigger piece of the 297 00:20:24,076 --> 00:20:30,196 Speaker 1: economic pie. And in modern labor parlance, those of us 298 00:20:30,236 --> 00:20:34,316 Speaker 1: who have been in the public sector, when we have 299 00:20:34,916 --> 00:20:39,916 Speaker 1: higher density, we have better outcomes in terms education. You 300 00:20:40,036 --> 00:20:44,356 Speaker 1: see it in terms of Massachusetts versus Mississippi. And so 301 00:20:44,516 --> 00:20:46,796 Speaker 1: what I would say is in the private sector, when 302 00:20:46,836 --> 00:20:49,756 Speaker 1: you have higher density, you see it in terms of 303 00:20:50,076 --> 00:20:54,156 Speaker 1: higher wages and things like that. So if the public 304 00:20:54,236 --> 00:20:58,476 Speaker 1: good writ large is how working people can have a 305 00:20:58,556 --> 00:21:02,356 Speaker 1: better piece of the economic pie, how they can have 306 00:21:02,796 --> 00:21:07,276 Speaker 1: their piece of the American dream, then unions are aligned 307 00:21:07,356 --> 00:21:11,276 Speaker 1: with that and are trying to make that happen. But 308 00:21:11,316 --> 00:21:14,156 Speaker 1: if you don't have enough density, you're not going to 309 00:21:14,276 --> 00:21:28,116 Speaker 1: make that happen economically. We'll be right back, Randy. I 310 00:21:28,116 --> 00:21:30,036 Speaker 1: want to ask you about something that's been very much 311 00:21:30,076 --> 00:21:32,836 Speaker 1: on my mind. In light of the debates over critical 312 00:21:32,916 --> 00:21:35,556 Speaker 1: race theory in the sixteen nineteen project, a number of 313 00:21:35,556 --> 00:21:39,716 Speaker 1: states have adopted or proposed legislation that would prohibit the 314 00:21:39,756 --> 00:21:42,516 Speaker 1: teaching of certain points of view, or at least what 315 00:21:42,636 --> 00:21:45,956 Speaker 1: they those statutes try to present as a certain point 316 00:21:45,996 --> 00:21:49,276 Speaker 1: of view. Now, at one time, it was an interest 317 00:21:49,316 --> 00:21:52,276 Speaker 1: of unions in teachers unions and of many individual teachers 318 00:21:52,876 --> 00:21:57,076 Speaker 1: to fight against legislation that would restrict what a teacher 319 00:21:57,116 --> 00:22:00,956 Speaker 1: could or couldn't teach. In the famous Scopes monkey trial 320 00:22:01,316 --> 00:22:04,196 Speaker 1: which involved the ASAU, not a union, but nevertheless, you know, 321 00:22:04,236 --> 00:22:08,516 Speaker 1: the original party there was the teacher who taught evolution, 322 00:22:08,636 --> 00:22:11,876 Speaker 1: allowed himself to be convicted of teaching evolution in order 323 00:22:11,876 --> 00:22:14,916 Speaker 1: to produce a test case, claiming initially a free speech 324 00:22:14,956 --> 00:22:17,716 Speaker 1: right to teach whatever he wanted to teach. Now that's 325 00:22:17,716 --> 00:22:20,156 Speaker 1: not exactly the way the law has evolved. But I'm 326 00:22:20,156 --> 00:22:23,996 Speaker 1: wondering from the standpoint of your union, when you see 327 00:22:24,076 --> 00:22:27,076 Speaker 1: laws that are past that restrict what teachers can teach, 328 00:22:27,116 --> 00:22:29,476 Speaker 1: that say, a certain point of view cannot be taught. 329 00:22:30,356 --> 00:22:33,116 Speaker 1: Do you take a stance against that, or do you 330 00:22:33,156 --> 00:22:36,556 Speaker 1: see that as sort of part and parcel of legislation 331 00:22:36,596 --> 00:22:39,996 Speaker 1: and lots of states that dictates curriculum and that therefore 332 00:22:40,076 --> 00:22:43,156 Speaker 1: appropriately tells teachers what they can and can't teach. No, 333 00:22:43,316 --> 00:22:45,636 Speaker 1: we take a stance against that. We take a stance 334 00:22:45,676 --> 00:22:48,636 Speaker 1: against that for a few reasons. One, there's a big 335 00:22:48,716 --> 00:22:53,236 Speaker 1: difference between K twelve and higher education in terms of 336 00:22:53,276 --> 00:22:57,156 Speaker 1: the freedom to teach and the latitude over academic freedom. 337 00:22:57,596 --> 00:23:01,196 Speaker 1: So we know in the main that in pre K 338 00:23:01,436 --> 00:23:06,796 Speaker 1: through secondary through high school, state laws require a certain 339 00:23:06,916 --> 00:23:11,596 Speaker 1: curriculum and we should have latitude within that curriculum to 340 00:23:11,636 --> 00:23:16,516 Speaker 1: meet the needs of kids. However, this has become just 341 00:23:16,636 --> 00:23:22,716 Speaker 1: like I would say the biology versus the evolution debate 342 00:23:22,916 --> 00:23:27,476 Speaker 1: that was exemplified by the Scopes trial. We're now into 343 00:23:27,516 --> 00:23:32,676 Speaker 1: a moral issue. And the moral issue is how do 344 00:23:32,796 --> 00:23:37,476 Speaker 1: we teach honest history and teach the truth? And what 345 00:23:37,676 --> 00:23:43,076 Speaker 1: these laws are actually doing is that they are limiting 346 00:23:43,396 --> 00:23:48,756 Speaker 1: what our kids will get and mostly helping our kids 347 00:23:48,836 --> 00:23:53,436 Speaker 1: become critical thinkers. And so I think that Mark Milly, 348 00:23:53,516 --> 00:23:55,876 Speaker 1: the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said it 349 00:23:56,636 --> 00:24:02,276 Speaker 1: incredibly well when he was getting roasted about why the 350 00:24:02,356 --> 00:24:10,676 Speaker 1: military would engage in conversations about diversity, an inclusion, and 351 00:24:10,956 --> 00:24:16,036 Speaker 1: dealing with racism. He wanted to understand White Ridge, and 352 00:24:16,156 --> 00:24:20,156 Speaker 1: he wanted to understand why there would be this kind 353 00:24:20,196 --> 00:24:25,556 Speaker 1: of insurrection on January sixth that could have decimated our democracy. 354 00:24:26,156 --> 00:24:29,396 Speaker 1: And that is the same thing that a high school 355 00:24:29,436 --> 00:24:33,236 Speaker 1: teacher would want to do for our kids. We would 356 00:24:33,356 --> 00:24:38,756 Speaker 1: want the weeks after January sixth to try to understand it, 357 00:24:38,956 --> 00:24:44,316 Speaker 1: to impart that understanding to our students, not to tell 358 00:24:44,396 --> 00:24:47,196 Speaker 1: them what to think, but to give them the skills 359 00:24:47,276 --> 00:24:50,636 Speaker 1: and knowledge, which means that you have to look at 360 00:24:50,676 --> 00:24:55,556 Speaker 1: an issue from all sides, including what has happened in 361 00:24:55,676 --> 00:25:01,476 Speaker 1: terms of our history that necessarily can make people uncomfortable. 362 00:25:01,876 --> 00:25:05,836 Speaker 1: So what has happened here is that in this zeal 363 00:25:06,436 --> 00:25:11,596 Speaker 1: to have a cultural war, what these laws are going 364 00:25:11,636 --> 00:25:14,916 Speaker 1: to do are going to actually stop us, or attempt 365 00:25:14,996 --> 00:25:18,676 Speaker 1: to stop us from helping to teach kids how to 366 00:25:18,796 --> 00:25:24,196 Speaker 1: think and to understand history. This is more reminiscent of 367 00:25:24,236 --> 00:25:26,836 Speaker 1: what they would do in China than what we should 368 00:25:26,836 --> 00:25:29,556 Speaker 1: be doing in the United States. Can I just ask 369 00:25:29,716 --> 00:25:33,556 Speaker 1: before we close, Randy, how reciprocal. Do you think of 370 00:25:33,596 --> 00:25:37,156 Speaker 1: this issue as being so if there are teachers who 371 00:25:37,316 --> 00:25:40,356 Speaker 1: teach a perspective on say, the history of race in 372 00:25:40,396 --> 00:25:43,316 Speaker 1: the United States, that you and I would substantively disagree 373 00:25:43,356 --> 00:25:46,396 Speaker 1: with and think is wrong, but which is a perspective 374 00:25:46,396 --> 00:25:51,036 Speaker 1: of opinion, of interpretation of facts rather than facts, and 375 00:25:51,076 --> 00:25:54,236 Speaker 1: they're in school districts that have a curriculum that requires 376 00:25:54,596 --> 00:25:57,756 Speaker 1: a different approach, an approach that say you and I favor, 377 00:25:58,636 --> 00:26:01,636 Speaker 1: would you similarly or would the unions similarly support the 378 00:26:01,756 --> 00:26:06,556 Speaker 1: rights of those teachers to express their opinions in the classroom. 379 00:26:06,716 --> 00:26:09,876 Speaker 1: There's a difference, Noah, between going to be trying to 380 00:26:09,876 --> 00:26:14,316 Speaker 1: be very clear about this. Telling kids what to think 381 00:26:15,636 --> 00:26:21,636 Speaker 1: is not our job. Engaging kids in understanding critical thinking 382 00:26:21,796 --> 00:26:26,276 Speaker 1: and being able to discern fact from fiction is our job. 383 00:26:26,916 --> 00:26:30,796 Speaker 1: And so there are lots of different viewpoints in terms 384 00:26:30,876 --> 00:26:39,276 Speaker 1: of this work. But basic integrity, basic honesty about facts 385 00:26:39,276 --> 00:26:42,196 Speaker 1: that have happened in the past, there's a line there. So, 386 00:26:42,276 --> 00:26:47,876 Speaker 1: for example, if someone is a holocaust denier, I think 387 00:26:47,916 --> 00:26:51,236 Speaker 1: that is inappropriate. Well, that's a matter I think we 388 00:26:51,236 --> 00:26:53,596 Speaker 1: can agree that's a matter of fact. Right. So the 389 00:26:53,676 --> 00:26:59,516 Speaker 1: issue here is we're talking about for example, take sixteen nineteen. 390 00:27:00,076 --> 00:27:04,716 Speaker 1: Is that a fact that in sixteen nineteen was the 391 00:27:04,796 --> 00:27:12,476 Speaker 1: first year that ships carried waved Africans to this country, 392 00:27:12,596 --> 00:27:15,676 Speaker 1: and using that as a jumping off point, I think 393 00:27:15,716 --> 00:27:21,316 Speaker 1: that's perfectly appropriate. The issue about whether or not one 394 00:27:21,436 --> 00:27:26,156 Speaker 1: then teaches is their systemic racism in each and everything 395 00:27:26,196 --> 00:27:29,276 Speaker 1: that we do. I think that's something that happens in 396 00:27:29,356 --> 00:27:33,836 Speaker 1: law schools and something that happens in higher education. But 397 00:27:34,036 --> 00:27:38,236 Speaker 1: in K twelve we start with the fact of what 398 00:27:38,436 --> 00:27:42,836 Speaker 1: enslavement was and what that means and what the effects 399 00:27:42,876 --> 00:27:47,076 Speaker 1: have been. So answer is I think we have to 400 00:27:47,156 --> 00:27:51,356 Speaker 1: have a wide birth in terms of whatever people's personal 401 00:27:51,396 --> 00:27:57,076 Speaker 1: ideology and opinions are, but ultimately we teach fact and 402 00:27:57,116 --> 00:28:02,996 Speaker 1: the consequences of those facts, not our personal ideology. Randy, 403 00:28:03,036 --> 00:28:06,796 Speaker 1: thank you very much for your fascinating commentary there, and 404 00:28:07,036 --> 00:28:09,916 Speaker 1: more importantly for your hard work over the last year 405 00:28:10,076 --> 00:28:12,556 Speaker 1: and for talking to me about these issues. So frankly, 406 00:28:13,156 --> 00:28:23,996 Speaker 1: thanks Noah. Listening to Randy Weingarten, I was actually pretty 407 00:28:24,116 --> 00:28:28,676 Speaker 1: surprised by the extent to which she depicted the teachers 408 00:28:28,796 --> 00:28:34,236 Speaker 1: Union's efforts during COVID as effectively a win. I understood 409 00:28:34,236 --> 00:28:36,796 Speaker 1: her argument that if you're somebody who feels that you 410 00:28:36,836 --> 00:28:40,356 Speaker 1: have no protection from your employer. COVID probably brought home 411 00:28:40,396 --> 00:28:43,756 Speaker 1: to you, very, very clearly the value of a union. 412 00:28:44,196 --> 00:28:47,956 Speaker 1: And I also understand from that perspective that probably members 413 00:28:47,956 --> 00:28:50,516 Speaker 1: of teachers unions who were worried about being pushed back 414 00:28:50,556 --> 00:28:52,956 Speaker 1: to work and were not pushed back to work are 415 00:28:53,156 --> 00:28:58,236 Speaker 1: reasonable in construing the union's successes as victories. On the 416 00:28:58,276 --> 00:29:02,756 Speaker 1: other hand, it also seems possible that losing a struggle 417 00:29:03,116 --> 00:29:05,996 Speaker 1: with upper middle class parents who can be, even if 418 00:29:06,036 --> 00:29:10,876 Speaker 1: they shouldn't be, disproportionately influential in local politics may actually 419 00:29:10,916 --> 00:29:14,156 Speaker 1: be costly to teachers unions when the time comes for 420 00:29:14,196 --> 00:29:19,196 Speaker 1: the next big fight about working conditions and salaries. Randy 421 00:29:19,276 --> 00:29:22,356 Speaker 1: was very forthright in acknowledging that it's important to control 422 00:29:22,636 --> 00:29:26,276 Speaker 1: not only outcomes, but also narrative and the challenges to 423 00:29:26,356 --> 00:29:30,236 Speaker 1: understand what the right narrative is to take away from COVID. 424 00:29:30,836 --> 00:29:33,036 Speaker 1: In that sense, it may be that her argument that 425 00:29:33,116 --> 00:29:36,116 Speaker 1: COVID should best be understood as providing an opportunity to 426 00:29:36,156 --> 00:29:39,636 Speaker 1: remind us of how important unions are is part of 427 00:29:39,676 --> 00:29:43,316 Speaker 1: her very savvy effort to control the narrative in a 428 00:29:43,356 --> 00:29:48,116 Speaker 1: way that will be advantageous to the unions. Similarly, I 429 00:29:48,196 --> 00:29:51,796 Speaker 1: was struck by Randy's argument that the true job of 430 00:29:51,836 --> 00:29:54,996 Speaker 1: the exercise of power today is to exercise power for 431 00:29:55,036 --> 00:29:58,596 Speaker 1: the common good. The optimist in me and the idealist 432 00:29:58,676 --> 00:30:01,676 Speaker 1: agrees with her entirely. In this day and age, you 433 00:30:01,716 --> 00:30:04,036 Speaker 1: can't just win a fight and expect that to mean 434 00:30:04,116 --> 00:30:05,956 Speaker 1: you're going to win in the long run. You need 435 00:30:06,036 --> 00:30:08,116 Speaker 1: to win the fight and show the world that the 436 00:30:08,156 --> 00:30:12,356 Speaker 1: fight that you've won actually effectuated circumstances that are better 437 00:30:12,396 --> 00:30:16,836 Speaker 1: off for everybody. My final thought is just an observation 438 00:30:16,916 --> 00:30:20,076 Speaker 1: on how extraordinary it is that in this day and age, 439 00:30:20,316 --> 00:30:24,036 Speaker 1: when fewer than seven percent of private sector workers are unionized, 440 00:30:24,436 --> 00:30:29,956 Speaker 1: public sector unions such as teachers unions, remain such an important, significant, 441 00:30:30,156 --> 00:30:33,876 Speaker 1: and vibrant part of the American political scene. Whether you 442 00:30:33,916 --> 00:30:38,596 Speaker 1: observe that split screen phenomenon from the left and see 443 00:30:38,636 --> 00:30:41,276 Speaker 1: it as not enough, or from the right and see 444 00:30:41,276 --> 00:30:45,396 Speaker 1: it as too much, it remains a fascinating aspect of 445 00:30:45,436 --> 00:30:48,556 Speaker 1: how labor unism has evolved in America and how it 446 00:30:48,596 --> 00:30:53,476 Speaker 1: operates against the backdrop of power today. Randy has written 447 00:30:53,476 --> 00:30:56,676 Speaker 1: an interesting article saying that by this fall, all schools 448 00:30:56,756 --> 00:31:00,636 Speaker 1: should be open with everybody vaccinated and being tested. That's 449 00:31:00,636 --> 00:31:03,556 Speaker 1: the right kind of optimistic. Note to remind me again 450 00:31:03,796 --> 00:31:07,356 Speaker 1: that I'm trying to reformulate my covid era sign off. 451 00:31:07,996 --> 00:31:10,076 Speaker 1: So for today, let me say to you. Then, until 452 00:31:10,116 --> 00:31:13,956 Speaker 1: the next time we speak, breathe deep, think deep, and 453 00:31:14,636 --> 00:31:18,236 Speaker 1: try to have a little fun. Deep Background is brought 454 00:31:18,236 --> 00:31:21,476 Speaker 1: to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Mola Board, 455 00:31:21,716 --> 00:31:25,036 Speaker 1: our engineer is Ben Tolliday, and our showrunner is Sophie 456 00:31:25,076 --> 00:31:29,916 Speaker 1: Crane mckibbon. Editorial support from noahm Osband. Theme music by 457 00:31:29,996 --> 00:31:33,556 Speaker 1: Luis Gara at Pushkin. Thanks to Mia Lobell, Julia Barton, 458 00:31:33,836 --> 00:31:38,436 Speaker 1: Lydia Jeancott, Heather Faine, Carlie Migliori, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, 459 00:31:38,596 --> 00:31:41,876 Speaker 1: and Jacob Weissberg. You can find me on Twitter at 460 00:31:41,916 --> 00:31:45,196 Speaker 1: Noah R. Feldman. I also write a column for Bloomberg Opinion, 461 00:31:45,316 --> 00:31:48,236 Speaker 1: which you can find at Bloomberg dot com slash Feldman. 462 00:31:48,716 --> 00:31:52,356 Speaker 1: To discover Bloomberg's originals later podcasts, go to Bloomberg dot 463 00:31:52,396 --> 00:31:55,716 Speaker 1: com slash Podcasts, And if you like what you heard today, 464 00:31:56,076 --> 00:31:59,436 Speaker 1: please write a review or tell a friend. This is 465 00:31:59,476 --> 00:32:00,436 Speaker 1: Deep Background.