Speaker 1: My guest today is model and author Paulina Poriskova. Paulina
Speaker 1: has had a fascinating monumental career. At one point, the
Speaker 1: world saw her as a model who married a rock star,
Speaker 1: but she is so much more than that. In this conversation,
Speaker 1: we talked about the pressure to keep looking young as
Speaker 1: we age, what it means to be a modeling, current culture,
Speaker 1: and Paulina's experience processing feelings of grief and betrayal after
Speaker 1: her husband Cars frontman Eric Okay Sick died. I found
Speaker 1: this conversation incredible, so real, so inspiring, so honest. I
Speaker 1: can't wait for you to hear it. Well, I just
Speaker 1: I was walking around my kitchen last night and I
Speaker 1: was thinking, I'm entering Paulina tomorrow. And it's funny because
Speaker 1: I didn't have any level of you know, success, societal
Speaker 1: success until my late thirties, and there is such a
Speaker 1: long time of you being so so mega famous and
Speaker 1: iconic in my life that sometimes I say, I can't
Speaker 1: believe I'm interviewing Paulina tomorrow, Like Paulina and who am I?
Speaker 1: And it's just weird that now we're sort of peers
Speaker 1: in this media entertainment industry, and sometimes I just shake
Speaker 1: my head at the craziness of all of it. How
Speaker 1: people are like cars in traffic, weaving in and out
Speaker 1: and and and and here we are together today. Yeah right,
Speaker 1: It's crazy what life throws at you. Right, And you
Speaker 1: can never see around the bend, like you don't know
Speaker 1: what's next. Well, right, and models, you know, I grew
Speaker 1: up in the era of like the supermodel, like at
Speaker 1: the peak era of the supermodel and Glamazon's and you know,
Speaker 1: you weren't a person. Obviously, you were not a person.
Speaker 1: You were just this alien beauty figure that like came
Speaker 1: down to speak to your mortals and marry you know,
Speaker 1: uh rock star, but not you know, at the superficial
Speaker 1: attractive level that you were at. So that was like
Speaker 1: your first mortal, normal human moment in my non having Instagram,
Speaker 1: Twitter or anything. So now you're a person, like I've
Speaker 1: seen that you're actually a human being. I've seen you
Speaker 1: coast real stuff, get emotional, really share um and like
Speaker 1: you're a flawed human being. So that's crazy for some
Speaker 1: of us to realize. Now, well, uh, I'm kind of
Speaker 1: thank you, I guess, uh, you know what it's the
Speaker 1: that's the it's the celebrity illusion, you know. In in
Speaker 1: in in in my book, I have an essay about
Speaker 1: celebrity and about like my take on celebrity is like, like,
Speaker 1: when you become a celebrity, it's kind of like you're
Speaker 1: enclosed in this soap bubble with the reflective surface. And
Speaker 1: so when people look at you, the first thing they
Speaker 1: see themselves, you know, the reflection of themselves, So their
Speaker 1: own assumptions about who you are. And so as a
Speaker 1: people always think, well, celebrities, you know, when you're a celebrity,
Speaker 1: everybody knows you. But in fact it's exactly the opposite.
Speaker 1: When your celebrity, nobody knows you, right, but possibly know
Speaker 1: you because they can't get past their own assumptions about
Speaker 1: who you are. So, yeah, I was a paper doll
Speaker 1: for my entire life. Does that mean that I actually
Speaker 1: was a paper doll? But no, right, you know it's
Speaker 1: too I think it actually took a tragedy to humanize me.
Speaker 1: I think, I think oddly enough, I think that's um
Speaker 1: you know, I think that's where people kind of got
Speaker 1: them them all, like, oh, maybe her life is not
Speaker 1: quite as enchanted and as amazing as it seems, and
Speaker 1: the fact, well share. I think it was Rosie O'Donnell
Speaker 1: who said something about when you when you achieve fame
Speaker 1: and celebrity status, you don't change, but everybody around you does,
Speaker 1: so you know, it becomes right. I mean, well you've
Speaker 1: I mean see, you have a great point of view
Speaker 1: here because you, as you say yourself, you didn't kind
Speaker 1: of become a celebrity until you were actually a woman,
Speaker 1: so that you could you perceived it in a different
Speaker 1: way than I, who you know, was a famous child.
Speaker 1: You know. So it's like I've grown up in that world,
Speaker 1: and yes I didn't. You know, when you grow up
Speaker 1: with it, you just think that that's the world. You
Speaker 1: don't really necessarily, you know you cant's interesting. Well that's
Speaker 1: really interesting because I will tell you that my personality
Speaker 1: has changed as a result of it. Now I'm at
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not j low, I'm not like people
Speaker 1: aren't standing outside my window with cameras um. And I'm
Speaker 1: very very introverted, which people are shocked by. Really never
Speaker 1: go out ever unless I have to. But I used
Speaker 1: to be someone who would talk to people in restaurants,
Speaker 1: I think, or just you know, talk to random random people,
Speaker 1: not all the time, and I didn't want to stay
Speaker 1: in the conversation for super long. But I would go
Speaker 1: to Starbucks in my pajamas with pimple medicine on my face.
Speaker 1: I've never really been overlea vain um. But you find
Speaker 1: that your body language changes a little if you're going
Speaker 1: to be out and people are going to like, oh god,
Speaker 1: I forgot we're out and we're at like a mall,
Speaker 1: and that means that people are going to see me
Speaker 1: and know that they know me and that we're going
Speaker 1: into that now. So you do change a little bit
Speaker 1: because you're just like a little bit on guard and
Speaker 1: your posture is a little bit crouched because you're just like,
Speaker 1: wait a second, you know. So that is so you
Speaker 1: have developed that personality from the beginning, and who knows
Speaker 1: how that would have been different or unpeeled it now. Interestingly,
Speaker 1: I think it worked a little differently for me because, um,
Speaker 1: I never knew anything else. I mean, you know, I
Speaker 1: was kind of famous as a political refugee initially when
Speaker 1: I was a child, and oh you had that was
Speaker 1: a you were that was a public thing for you personally,
Speaker 1: like you were known for when I arrived in Sweden
Speaker 1: at the age of nine. After this protracted the thing
Speaker 1: of my parents trying to get me out of the
Speaker 1: out of Czechoslovakia. I arrived into Sweden at nine and
Speaker 1: I was like, do you remember that kid Alien Gonzalez,
Speaker 1: the Cuban refuge Yes, I was that in Sweden. So um,
Speaker 1: I was like the face of you know, this crisis.
Speaker 1: But yeah, cold war and you know, poor political refugee
Speaker 1: and that doesn't make you like super popular in school.
Speaker 1: Uh so I kind of that, you know, dragged along
Speaker 1: with me through my teen years. Not not a great
Speaker 1: time to be known as a political refugee. Oh wow,
Speaker 1: I because I was going to ask you about the
Speaker 1: bullying and that was a big part of it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was well, that was kind of you know, at
Speaker 1: least as far as I knew that was what the
Speaker 1: bullying was based on, because I was always called you
Speaker 1: dirty communists and go back to your country, and you know,
Speaker 1: really intense bullying, like I had my head shoved into
Speaker 1: a toilet and the water flash because I was told
Speaker 1: I was dirty and that never leaves you that now,
Speaker 1: that's that that childhood trauma. Wow. But what so did
Speaker 1: you what did what were you thinking, were you particularly
Speaker 1: glued to the television with the situation in Ukraine? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was, Yeah, actually it was. It was. I was
Speaker 1: when I had actually traveled to Israel at that point
Speaker 1: to attend my godson's wedding, and I was in the
Speaker 1: middle of writing my book. Now I was on a
Speaker 1: super time crunch because I had to finish my book
Speaker 1: in three months. That's a very short amount of time.
Speaker 1: So I wrote literally every single day, Saturday, Sunday, um,
Speaker 1: all holidays. But I had to go to my godson's wedding.
Speaker 1: It's like one of those life once in the lifetime things.
Speaker 1: So I went to Israel. I was completely jet lagged.
Speaker 1: I was sitting in my hotel room writing and when
Speaker 1: I woke up in the morning, I that was the
Speaker 1: headlines that I saw, and I just felt like I crumbled,
Speaker 1: you know, and um, and then this essay just kind
Speaker 1: of flew out of me about occupation, about the what
Speaker 1: it feels like to be occupied by, you know, on
Speaker 1: on the country level and also on an emotional level,
Speaker 1: you know, occupation of the soul. And what's really truly
Speaker 1: dangerous about occupation is not, you know, not that you
Speaker 1: can't get the gene jacket that you want, or that
Speaker 1: you can't listen to the kind of music that you want.
Speaker 1: But it's that your soul is occupied. You know, you
Speaker 1: get um, you get you get you're scared of everything.
Speaker 1: Like you you're you put into this little shape that
Speaker 1: you have to um kind of fit within. And that's
Speaker 1: kind of like fame too to a certain to a
Speaker 1: certain extent, you know, it's like being put in the box,
Speaker 1: and and part of you almost goes, well, I'm safe
Speaker 1: as long as I stay in the box, you know,
Speaker 1: outside of it interesting, it's well. I also think about
Speaker 1: the fact that you were nine, because I just recently
Speaker 1: went to an event for the National Holocaust Museum and
Speaker 1: survivors spoke, and to be at an age that you
Speaker 1: definitely really remember process and feel like, that's a very
Speaker 1: interesting age. I feel like the first time my daughter
Speaker 1: was a person that we made decisions together about where
Speaker 1: we were going or what we were doing, was you know,
Speaker 1: probably eight seven eight. So you now have opinions and
Speaker 1: you know you're you're confused. You're in between being two people,
Speaker 1: a total child with no opinion and you know, verily
Speaker 1: very overly decisive tweens. So I just think that the
Speaker 1: age of that is very uh, it is compelling, and
Speaker 1: I was very I am very involved in UM Ukraine relief.
Speaker 1: So it's crazy and thank you. I I follow you
Speaker 1: on I G two and I see all this stuff
Speaker 1: that you too, and I just think it's so I
Speaker 1: appreciate that. Um. So it's funny we're talking about fame
Speaker 1: and we're talking about beauty, and I for some reason,
Speaker 1: when I was reading about you, I was thinking about
Speaker 1: Victorious Secret and Sports Illustrated and the changes in body
Speaker 1: type and in um ethnicity and all of these different things.
Speaker 1: And it's I'll be totally honest, because, um, sometimes it
Speaker 1: feels like beauty and being a model in that whole
Speaker 1: world of imagery is in an identity crisis. Because when
Speaker 1: I was growing up, you heard that a model had
Speaker 1: to be five ft seven and that was the that
Speaker 1: was the Kate Moss exception. You know, you had to
Speaker 1: be five ft seven, you had to weigh a certain
Speaker 1: amount um because you had to be sort of like
Speaker 1: a hangar for clothes. You know, you were just like
Speaker 1: a canvas for clothes, and even the look. You know,
Speaker 1: you aren't going in there with big extensions and glam
Speaker 1: you had to be natural and be like a blank canvas.
Speaker 1: That's the way that I saw it or read about
Speaker 1: it in the magazines. And now and you know, I've
Speaker 1: talked to different men that think Sports Illustrated was just
Speaker 1: it was. It was stunning, alien like women in bathing suits.
Speaker 1: And now they feel that it's not like that because
Speaker 1: publications have to make sure to check all of these boxes.
Speaker 1: Um and I think about models were never supposed to
Speaker 1: be like everybody else. They weren't supposed to look like
Speaker 1: everybody else. They were supposed to be these glamazon's. It
Speaker 1: doesn't you know, Lebron James does not play sports like
Speaker 1: everybody else. That's why he's Lebron James. Like, that's why
Speaker 1: you're you, That's why Cindy Krawfort. It doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: anyone should love you more or hate you more for it.
Speaker 1: It's just what it is. Like you just had to
Speaker 1: just were born stunning, So that's why you were a model,
Speaker 1: and Michael Jordan was born with a gift or Picasso was,
Speaker 1: So everything doesn't need to be that. Everybody's gets the
Speaker 1: same exact opportunities and everything. I'm gonna disagree with you
Speaker 1: in a in a in a halfways, I always want
Speaker 1: to hear I'm curious because this is what the thoughts
Speaker 1: that I have and I'm not allowed to say inside,
Speaker 1: but I'm saying that. Well that that's because it's you
Speaker 1: and thank you, just you know, saying what's on your mind. Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: first of all, models, yes, I know like of what
Speaker 1: you speak and that was kind of like you know
Speaker 1: my generation that you know, Christie Brinkley, Sheryl takes before,
Speaker 1: like you know, the supermodels after me. So yes, we
Speaker 1: were supposed to. Um. First of all, the reason you
Speaker 1: have to be tall and a very specific size is
Speaker 1: because designers make a sample of clothing, one sample, and
Speaker 1: all the girls that will photograph it in magazines have
Speaker 1: to fit that. Right. That's what I understand why we
Speaker 1: all had to be the same size, right. That size
Speaker 1: size was not an option because you had to fit
Speaker 1: that one outfit. Right. Um. Obviously, younger skin, um, I
Speaker 1: was told, reflects light much better than older skin, and
Speaker 1: hence all the you know, sixteen seventeen year old um
Speaker 1: and uh so like and by the way, but that's
Speaker 1: why a basketball player they should be tall. Like, we're
Speaker 1: not mad at them for that sport because they should
Speaker 1: be tall. It's okay. We're not like, oh, why don't
Speaker 1: you have short people playing NBA. It's just what it is,
Speaker 1: So go ahead, let's see that. But that's how, that's how.
Speaker 1: That's what the fashion business was in the seventies and
Speaker 1: the eighties. Now, mind you, before that, in the forties
Speaker 1: and fifties, I believe a lot of the fashion models
Speaker 1: were actually socialized, so they were older, they were slightly
Speaker 1: older women. There were women in there, you know, late
Speaker 1: twenties and thirties occasionally even forties, um, and it and
Speaker 1: it was like elegant women modeling like the kind of
Speaker 1: things that they would wear. So it was like that
Speaker 1: W magazine look of all those wealthy New York's Okay,
Speaker 1: got it. So it was So it's changed, you know,
Speaker 1: it's being changed throughout the years of like the way
Speaker 1: of showing you fashion or the way of selling you fashion.
Speaker 1: And of course you have more fashion than ever to sell,
Speaker 1: and we have like beauty products of the but to sell.
Speaker 1: So it's more and more and more information. But I
Speaker 1: think I also think that, um, while we were clothes
Speaker 1: clothes hangers, and that's all fine and well. To show
Speaker 1: you you know, the magnificent creations of like you know, Eve,
Speaker 1: Saint Laurent whatever, um it also um it's We also
Speaker 1: didn't represent very many women. We only you know, we
Speaker 1: were clothes hangers. And and I think while we were
Speaker 1: supposed to really only show you the fashion and make
Speaker 1: the fashion look attractive, you know, little girls open the
Speaker 1: fashion magazines and then sort of get the idea that
Speaker 1: this is what they're supposed to look like. That. I
Speaker 1: do go with you on that. I understand that's where
Speaker 1: the interesting line is though. But not every little boy
Speaker 1: looks at a professional athlete thinking that's how good they're
Speaker 1: supposed to be. It's okay that you grew up prettier
Speaker 1: than I am and taller than I am. I am
Speaker 1: a good marketer. Whatever it is, like, everybody's not exactly
Speaker 1: the same. And what with pertaining to to color of
Speaker 1: your skin, a dent like all ethnicities should be included.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, are people Are some people allowed to
Speaker 1: be more attractive than others? Now? Is that no? Has
Speaker 1: that been canceled? We'll see that's or what is attractive.
Speaker 1: I think that that's what we're battling with now, is
Speaker 1: what is attractive because quite frankly, Bethany, if you took
Speaker 1: this same face and there's five ft eleven body and
Speaker 1: stuck me back a century, I would have been um
Speaker 1: washing dishes somewhere, because I sure as hell wouldn't have
Speaker 1: cut it as a beauty a required view. You really,
Speaker 1: is that really true? Like, isn't some beauty just doesn't
Speaker 1: some beauty just stand the test of time. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I'm looking at you and I'm I don't know, maybe
Speaker 1: square face and the high cheekbones that will see Okay,
Speaker 1: so it's trending thing. It's a trend type thing. Well,
Speaker 1: we do we beauty. Our perception of what is beautiful
Speaker 1: does change with time. Okay. Committedly throughout the good makes sense.
Speaker 1: We have had different views of what beauty was, and
Speaker 1: it's usually sort of based around I guess, you know,
Speaker 1: the economy and um, you know, sort of like what's
Speaker 1: going on within the society. So it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: really well, juicy women were seen as a sexual ideals
Speaker 1: for for hundreds of years because that voted money and
Speaker 1: wealth and indulgence and health and and good health yes,
Speaker 1: fability yes, And then it wasn't until the nineteen twenties,
Speaker 1: when um, being really thin suddenly was a thing. You know,
Speaker 1: what you're saying to me makes perfect sense, you said.
Speaker 1: I keep going back to you saying that it was
Speaker 1: designed because you're just you're moving product, You're moving the clothes,
Speaker 1: you're moving the beauty. So being a blank canvas, being
Speaker 1: a hanger, being whatever you say. So now, I so
Speaker 1: I think it boils down to marketing, and now um,
Speaker 1: it's being It's all boils down to marketing. So now
Speaker 1: whatever is going to sell? So if so, what if
Speaker 1: people have you buy? It's whatever you personally, Bethany feel
Speaker 1: like whatever, I Paulina feel like buying. That is what
Speaker 1: you That is what's going to be pushed as the UM,
Speaker 1: I guess objects of beauty. Yeah, and it's starting at
Speaker 1: the top of the media and the magazines and the designers,
Speaker 1: so they can shift. So I'm disagreeing with myself because
Speaker 1: they can shift. It's still just marketing something different. So
Speaker 1: it doesn't just because a size fourteen is now more
Speaker 1: sexy than a size zero, it's still marketing that. It's
Speaker 1: just marketing whatever it's it's always going to be an
Speaker 1: EBB and flow. Yeah, So I just yeah, while we're
Speaker 1: talking about that, you know, and body inclusivity as as
Speaker 1: we're saying has you know flourished and color inclusivity fantastic.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm all for all inclusivity because I do think that. Um.
Speaker 1: I think as a woman, we are told so early
Speaker 1: on that the way we look is of outmost important.
Speaker 1: Even if your parents tell you, you know, you're great,
Speaker 1: you're fantastic, you're beautiful the way you are. Don't listen
Speaker 1: to what anybody else tells you. You live in a
Speaker 1: society and you get these this input thrown at you
Speaker 1: all the time that says the way you look matters.
Speaker 1: There is something and why is it but there? Why
Speaker 1: is it okay? For it's not okay for someone to
Speaker 1: talk about someone's weight if it's heavy, but it is
Speaker 1: okay to talk about someone's weight if they're thin. Like
Speaker 1: there are double standards. And then some people will say
Speaker 1: that it's great to celebrate all sizes, all shapes, but
Speaker 1: not to be promoting unhealthy eating habits, and the pendulum
Speaker 1: has sometimes swung because everyone's mad at anyone for being thin.
Speaker 1: And I have a brand called skinny Girl. Also believe me,
Speaker 1: I know it sure, And we've always like we made
Speaker 1: the connection. Um, like in the old in the olden days,
Speaker 1: being plump was healthy and then skinny was healthy. And frankly,
Speaker 1: you really can't tell by looking at a person whether
Speaker 1: they're healthy or not. That's it's it's not the body
Speaker 1: side of determined health. That's true too. So so is
Speaker 1: it has it been incredible pressure being on lists? Being
Speaker 1: the top ten most beautiful, the top ten, you know,
Speaker 1: or just being a supermodel? Is it pressure? Because then
Speaker 1: you're out at the supermarket if if you think you
Speaker 1: don't look good, someone's looking at you and they're seeing
Speaker 1: the Emperor has no clothes or what is that pressure like?
Speaker 1: Or do you not care? Um? I was also never
Speaker 1: very vain and all and you know, and I come
Speaker 1: from a background where I um. I was told I
Speaker 1: was ugly for until I was fifteen years old. I
Speaker 1: lived in Sweden, I was I wasn't even in high school.
Speaker 1: I was in middle school, and I was constantly told
Speaker 1: that I was ugly. Um, And I'm in one week,
Speaker 1: I go to Paris, I wake up and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, I'm told I'm beautiful. I look at myself
Speaker 1: in a mirror and I go, well, I'm looking at
Speaker 1: exactly the same feature. So a week ago I was
Speaker 1: ugly and the same exact face is now beautiful. So
Speaker 1: you're saying what we just said, it's marketing. Well, beauty
Speaker 1: is in the eye of the beholder, right about. It's
Speaker 1: about other people's perception of me. And I already sort
Speaker 1: of knew that. So, um, I you know, I was
Speaker 1: the girl that arrived at bookings with my really thick
Speaker 1: glasses and and and a classic book, and that was
Speaker 1: that was a kind of a model I was. I
Speaker 1: wasn't really into the high fashion world of it at all.
Speaker 1: It was like it was a job, and I was
Speaker 1: very grateful that I could do it and make the
Speaker 1: money that I made. But honestly, don't give a crap
Speaker 1: about fashion. Well, by the way, it's funny because I'm
Speaker 1: not I'm not vain either. I saw a lot of you,
Speaker 1: of myself and your story. Um, I'm not particularly vain.
Speaker 1: I don't really care. I like dress nicely, not like
Speaker 1: having a nice outfit to go to something, but I
Speaker 1: don't care about to quote unquote fashion. Um and um,
Speaker 1: were you a good business Are you a good business person?
Speaker 1: Have you been good at the business of the business.
Speaker 1: I suck at business, unlike you got any I'm suck
Speaker 1: at numbers and business. And it's just I just I
Speaker 1: like I'm you know, I'm all about you know, writing
Speaker 1: and figuring out people's um emotional backgrounds and like this
Speaker 1: is like that's that's all. This sort of interconnectedness between
Speaker 1: emotions between people that interests me and money does not.
Speaker 1: And never right. But you definitely have made some mistakes
Speaker 1: in that case with this, I have. I made some
Speaker 1: very I made some very obvious mistakes, um, and and
Speaker 1: I paid for it, you know, conlustle or just the
Speaker 1: cost of doing business. Uh. Well, So, UM, I met
Speaker 1: my husban and when I was nineteen, and we were
Speaker 1: married for thirty years. We were together for thirty five
Speaker 1: three two years we were separated but still lived together.
Speaker 1: And then when he died, he left behind a will
Speaker 1: that said that I was not eligible to any of
Speaker 1: the money of our estates because I had abandoned him,
Speaker 1: which was a patent lie. But I, UM, I found
Speaker 1: myself after thirty some years of living with this man
Speaker 1: that I trusted with my life, um suddenly waking up
Speaker 1: and he was dead and I couldn't ask him what
Speaker 1: was going on, and also like no cash like I was,
Speaker 1: like I did, I did because we were still married.
Speaker 1: I did get these two houses that we owned, but
Speaker 1: um heavily mortgaged and I had no money to pay
Speaker 1: for anything and then came profit. So you know, wow,
Speaker 1: But like I don't even know how someone you know,
Speaker 1: many kids get married with that prenups that are married
Speaker 1: for thirty years. And that's a horror story you're telling
Speaker 1: like that. It's very common for someone to be dumb
Speaker 1: and not signed a prenup, you know, you know, in
Speaker 1: the thirties whatever, but in nineteen years old, no one's
Speaker 1: gonna blame you for not knowing what a prenup even was.
Speaker 1: And and like you but along the way, you never
Speaker 1: like asked are we good? Am I good? What's the will?
Speaker 1: Like you know not? And it never occurred to me
Speaker 1: because this is the men that I spent my whole life.
Speaker 1: Loved him, and I thought that he loved me the
Speaker 1: same I thought we were. We were getting a divorced
Speaker 1: because our marriage was not working. But you had a
Speaker 1: pretty good run. It sounds like I had a really
Speaker 1: freaking good run. And we share I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like I spent my whole wife with this guy,
Speaker 1: so I trusted him wholeheartedly. God, it's really like this.
Speaker 1: You just were like trying to mourn and hate at
Speaker 1: the same time. It was it was, it was not.
Speaker 1: It was not a good time. Um, but it was
Speaker 1: obviously the darkest time of my life. But isn't that
Speaker 1: funny though? It's funny that you say that because I
Speaker 1: had a I was married two years. It was a
Speaker 1: ten year to get divorced on a two year marriage.
Speaker 1: Ten year and I mean probably over five million dollars
Speaker 1: in legal like. It was gnarly. It was not a
Speaker 1: garden variety. I mean it was insane, Yeah, brutal battle,
Speaker 1: I mean, court appeals, it was endless, and it was
Speaker 1: I had a very very challenging child, and I've seen
Speaker 1: everything from abuse to hospitalization to attempts at suicide in
Speaker 1: front of me. I've seen it all. Nothing compared to
Speaker 1: this situation I'm telling you about as an adult, so
Speaker 1: I can identify with you, probably the walls closing in
Speaker 1: the frustration of having no control over the situation and
Speaker 1: not being able to get the answers you want and
Speaker 1: you'll never get them, and then having to say to
Speaker 1: yourself every day is like just moving closer to healing.
Speaker 1: Probably I think of it like I used to give it,
Speaker 1: Like golf, Okay, I'm the first hole. Now I'll get
Speaker 1: to the second, and then I get pulled back to
Speaker 1: the first hole, and I don't know where. What hole
Speaker 1: are you at now? In everything and grieving and pain
Speaker 1: and anguish and confusion and frustration all of that. What
Speaker 1: hole in the golf game are you? Huh? Well, see
Speaker 1: my metaphor for this is I like your golf course.
Speaker 1: I I wish I had thought of it. My metaphor
Speaker 1: was being pushed into the ocean at at night in
Speaker 1: the dark with a store and just trying to stay afloat,
Speaker 1: Like you have no idea what directions you go in,
Speaker 1: there is no light, You don't know what happened. You
Speaker 1: don't you're not trying to win, You're trying to survive.
Speaker 1: You are literally just in survival mode for a really
Speaker 1: long time. Um. What's long? How long? Um? I would say, well,
Speaker 1: it's been three years now, and I think I've gotten
Speaker 1: you know, I'm like healing in certain aspects of I am. Um,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm sort of okay with the betrayal art now
Speaker 1: of the will thing. Because the money thing got sorted out,
Speaker 1: his a state settled. I got what was due to
Speaker 1: me under New York law, which is the third not
Speaker 1: a half money. I did write all my money into
Speaker 1: our joint bank accounts, and I got h wow, all
Speaker 1: your modeling money was in the pot. Oh yeah, it
Speaker 1: all went into the same pocket. But you know what,
Speaker 1: I got some so um, and I'm I'm and I'm okay,
Speaker 1: and I'm working again, so and you know, and so
Speaker 1: you got over the betrayal, but I got out to
Speaker 1: the betrayal. The grief is kind of like a It's
Speaker 1: kind of like an thing that surges up, you know,
Speaker 1: like you think you're okay and then it just kind
Speaker 1: of grabs you and pulls you under for a while.
Speaker 1: Grieving the death, not grieving the betrayal, grieving the actual loss. Yeah. Interesting.
Speaker 1: I mean again, I spend my whole life with this man.
Speaker 1: I know would be hard to imagine. Like the the
Speaker 1: anger probably was a pretty good grief help because you're
Speaker 1: not you know, you would have been thinking about how
Speaker 1: different your grief would have been if you didn't have
Speaker 1: the anger. I'm just curious about that because I you know,
Speaker 1: there are people whose husbands leave them with all these
Speaker 1: bills and kill themselves, and then they're like grieving because
Speaker 1: the person was in so much pain, but they've left
Speaker 1: them with this garbage dump. So it's got to be
Speaker 1: this mixed up crazy thing that many people could listen
Speaker 1: probably relate too. Sadly. I actually think that I, Um,
Speaker 1: I was. I was a little reasonful that I didn't
Speaker 1: just get to mourn him because I just after a while,
Speaker 1: I was so angry, And when I wasn't angry, I
Speaker 1: was so sad um And when I wasn't sad, I
Speaker 1: was angry. It's like there was no there was no
Speaker 1: there was not no magment where yeah, where like one
Speaker 1: thing wasn't hurting, you couldn't get out wow and where
Speaker 1: and so Now, so if it was a marathon or
Speaker 1: if it was a golf game, how much out are
Speaker 1: you now? I don't know, Bethany, I have no idea.
Speaker 1: Um three years into it and I can say that, Look,
Speaker 1: I I I feel like I have a purpose in
Speaker 1: my life now. I sort of know what I'm doing. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, I've written a book. Um, I am promoting
Speaker 1: the book. I am. I have my sweet little apartment. Um,
Speaker 1: it's a rental, but you know it's my own apartment.
Speaker 1: Where is it? It's Um, it's in Manhattan. Oh great, Okay.
Speaker 1: You see this beautifully well papered wall. I keep looking
Speaker 1: at it. I'm obsessed with it. It's really cool. It's
Speaker 1: stick and peel wallpapers because it's a rental, so I
Speaker 1: couldn't really well paper. I love it. Um. But on
Speaker 1: the other side of the wall is the very first
Speaker 1: apartment I rented when I came to United States when
Speaker 1: I was seventeen years old. My god, what how is
Speaker 1: that parmy circle? That's meaningful, that's beautiful. So, yeah, you're
Speaker 1: living well. You're an empty nest, right, your kids are growing,
Speaker 1: My kids, my kids are, My kids are out. It's
Speaker 1: just me and uh I am what a full circle? Wow? Okay,
Speaker 1: So I mean this is going I would love to
Speaker 1: this to be three hours, right, I have so much
Speaker 1: time to ask you. Wait, So your kids are grown,
Speaker 1: and how is your relationship with them as it pertains
Speaker 1: to this thing you've just discussed. I'm sure you have
Speaker 1: to compartmentalize a lot. You're not going to drag them
Speaker 1: into everything. But they're adults, So how is the whole
Speaker 1: dynamic with your kids. As it pertains to this. My
Speaker 1: children are freaking amazing. They're there. I'm so I am
Speaker 1: so proud of these two men that we've raised. And
Speaker 1: that's me and my husband both. He was instrumental in
Speaker 1: in them becoming who they are, and they are they're
Speaker 1: gentle and they're kind and their understanding and you know,
Speaker 1: I when I was writing my book, all of this
Speaker 1: stuff is in my book. I didn't spare myself any
Speaker 1: I'm keeping other people's secrets, but I'm purging mine. Um.
Speaker 1: And so I I ran the book by them before,
Speaker 1: you know, before publishing, make sure that they were okay
Speaker 1: with everything I said. And there were a couple of
Speaker 1: things that they said, Mom, please take this out. This
Speaker 1: is not I don't want I don't want this in there.
Speaker 1: So of course I did, um. But then I had
Speaker 1: their full blessings on Yep, this is this is how
Speaker 1: you see it, this is what happened. You just ahead, mom,
Speaker 1: go mom, and super supportive. And for them to be
Speaker 1: super supportive of their mother, who does tell the truth
Speaker 1: about what happened, this is pretty impord in there. Because
Speaker 1: they adore their father. I mean, he was like the
Speaker 1: greatest dad in the world to them. Wow. Okay, well
Speaker 1: that's good that you compartmentalize that and allow them to
Speaker 1: have that without tarnishing that completely. Um So I remember,
Speaker 1: obviously I've always known who you are, but really you
Speaker 1: kind of piquing my interest during the pandemic when you
Speaker 1: were really sharing and I mean, did you like really share.
Speaker 1: I don't remember what the post was, but you were
Speaker 1: really having a hard day and you're posting yourself the
Speaker 1: way that you you look, um and it was raw,
Speaker 1: to say the least. And it seems like that's this
Speaker 1: next chapter, which is connected to this book entirely. Um.
Speaker 1: I can't wait for you to tell me when you've
Speaker 1: come out of it, because there will be a moment
Speaker 1: where you're out, like I'm out. And it took a
Speaker 1: long time. It took down a decade. Well it was
Speaker 1: a decade till the thing was closed. So emotionally, emotionally,
Speaker 1: how long did it take? No, I mean I couldn't
Speaker 1: even start the emotional process of healing until I felt
Speaker 1: that there was a button on it and everything the
Speaker 1: money was closed, the custody was closed, the full custody
Speaker 1: was closed, like all of that was closed, So I
Speaker 1: would say realistically, um, maybe a couple of years, like,
Speaker 1: but so probably I don't think you're that far from
Speaker 1: feeling like maybe after this book does well, like there'll
Speaker 1: be a moment where you'll just feel like wow, like
Speaker 1: this button has been snapped and now I'm really like
Speaker 1: feeling lighter. It's just they'll be an aha moment. And
Speaker 1: it definitely hasn't happened yet because you know it and
Speaker 1: just the pandemic saved my life because it brought everything
Speaker 1: to the surface that had happened for all these years.
Speaker 1: And it's when I got full custody, and it's when
Speaker 1: you know, everything was just gone and settled. There were
Speaker 1: no more things to discuss. So whenever that is for you,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure there's a couple of little things that
Speaker 1: haven't been finished that will be like wow, and it will.
Speaker 1: I think I think it's all clear for me now.
Speaker 1: I think it's been clear for me for probably about
Speaker 1: a year now. So whatever, you know. I mean, look,
Speaker 1: I what I fell in love with my husband when
Speaker 1: I was nineteen and I found myself single. Um, when
Speaker 1: my husband and I separated, which was before his death,
Speaker 1: I felt very much in love with somebody, and he
Speaker 1: left me the day I was selling my house, um
Speaker 1: during the pandemic. So that was a little added Um,
Speaker 1: that's the Erin's stork and of it all. No God,
Speaker 1: No got himself in the mess by being my public boyfriend.
Speaker 1: No aeron my vacation from heartbreak, bless u. Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: he was my He was my little vacation and I
Speaker 1: adore him for it. No, it was a different man,
Speaker 1: but unnamed man got it. I don't care at all.
Speaker 1: I just was. I didn't know because that he has
Speaker 1: been public with you, so I didn't know. No, No,
Speaker 1: this guy, this guy was not not, not for any
Speaker 1: particular reasons, which just it was, you know, everybody everybody
Speaker 1: around me knew, and my husband knew, and the kids knew,
Speaker 1: and it's like, you know, it was, but it was.
Speaker 1: It was not. I was not sharing that with the
Speaker 1: world because it didn't belong out out there. It wasn't
Speaker 1: anybody's business at that point. But I was kind of
Speaker 1: dealing with the grief and the betrayal and then heartbreak
Speaker 1: as well and then COVID. So when you saw me
Speaker 1: sharing when I came on your radar was when I
Speaker 1: was literally drowning Um, I was you know, i'd say suicidal,
Speaker 1: but um, you know it sounds so like no. And
Speaker 1: COVID crystallized everything because you're alone with your own thoughts
Speaker 1: in your head and you know you can't release. And
Speaker 1: I had never been the who that's true. I didn't think, Wow, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know a lot of people are like experiencing health
Speaker 1: problems now as a result of, you know, over consuming
Speaker 1: during COVID. I mean it was for some people, you know,
Speaker 1: it was either it was either every it either helped
Speaker 1: them entirely or destroyed them. So I could see, so
Speaker 1: you basically were what could be perceived in other worlds
Speaker 1: or other times as over sharing, but you literally needed
Speaker 1: to connect two people exactly because I was going to die. Wow,
Speaker 1: I mean there was there's like, there's no no other
Speaker 1: way to put it. I was drowning and I was
Speaker 1: sending out little messages in the bottle saying please somebody,
Speaker 1: are you? Is anybody out there? And did people help you?
Speaker 1: And yes? And that's the that's the to me, the miracle,
Speaker 1: and and that that that there were others so well,
Speaker 1: there were other souls that connected to me. And how
Speaker 1: much that that it did keep me afloat because I
Speaker 1: kept other ones afloat. There was like, you know, these
Speaker 1: people started coming to me because of me sharing my vulnerability,
Speaker 1: and then they started hearing their vulnerabilities with me. And
Speaker 1: and when you just know that there's somebody out there
Speaker 1: that hears you, even just that little bit makes you
Speaker 1: make it to the next day, that's really special and
Speaker 1: a gift and kind of full circle with your book
Speaker 1: coming out too, so you know you're on this sharing, connecting,
Speaker 1: rebuilding journey being by yourself and your apartment. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: I did see myself in you and that it feels
Speaker 1: like you were alone. You weren't alone in your adult life,
Speaker 1: but it feels like in your child life you are
Speaker 1: alone a lot. You kind of did you raise yourself? Uh? Well, yes,
Speaker 1: I raised myself, but I also raised my little brother. Okay,
Speaker 1: so I was not so much alone. I was lonely,
Speaker 1: but I wasn't alone. I had this three year old
Speaker 1: that I had to take care of for, you know,
Speaker 1: my whole childhood, which does make a difference. That's like
Speaker 1: such a connection Like being a single mom, you just
Speaker 1: feel like connection to your child and that was your
Speaker 1: So I get that that's not being alone. No, And
Speaker 1: then I met my husband at nineteen and he already
Speaker 1: had four kids. So you know, I my whole I
Speaker 1: feel like my whole life was spent um being needed
Speaker 1: by somebody else. And now I'm learning how to not
Speaker 1: being needed by anybody. And you know what's not it's
Speaker 1: I don't love it. Oh well, you know I now
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about the child support issue with your father,
Speaker 1: coming full circle with this issue with Rick, which I
Speaker 1: had the same exact child support issue as a kid.
Speaker 1: The stories told to me were just that my father,
Speaker 1: we hadn't seen him since he was five, and he
Speaker 1: never paid child support. He was this big famous horse trainer,
Speaker 1: and um, my relationship is very challenging also with my mother.
Speaker 1: So I'm relating to you there. But then to come
Speaker 1: later and have someone want to take your money that
Speaker 1: when you were broke and never earned any For me,
Speaker 1: that was full circle also, just like that's can't that's
Speaker 1: not an accident, Like those things are just interesting. You
Speaker 1: had that in your story, it's literally in your bio
Speaker 1: about your father, and then you come into the situation
Speaker 1: with someone you're supposed to trust years later, it's like
Speaker 1: leaving another mark. Yeah, yeah, And and it's but it's
Speaker 1: a little bit like life, like whatever fates, whatever higher powers,
Speaker 1: if there are any, it's um, it's like you're here
Speaker 1: to learn this lesson, and you and and you need
Speaker 1: to keep having obstacles thrown in a way to learn it,
Speaker 1: because you're not gonna learn just by coasting through life. Right,
Speaker 1: So here's another obstacle for you. Let's see how you'll
Speaker 1: deal with this one. Well, Ellen always said you you'll
Speaker 1: keep making the same as Ellen generous, You keep making
Speaker 1: the same mistake until you learn the lesson. She said
Speaker 1: to me, she said a couple of things that I
Speaker 1: jump off the page in my whole life. It's interesting, um,
Speaker 1: but she said that to me. And also it kind
Speaker 1: of feels like it created this new journey for you.
Speaker 1: I mean, without what happened with Rick and your dad,
Speaker 1: but certainly what happened with Rick, you wouldn't be sharing
Speaker 1: in this way and writing this book in this way.
Speaker 1: And so that's what I was going to say about
Speaker 1: the Gulf, was that I was thinking, I know, there's
Speaker 1: a reason for all this this pain, this mental pain,
Speaker 1: and this grays, these hair falling out, this stress. There's
Speaker 1: something about this. It will not feel like this forever,
Speaker 1: I will be able to pay this forward and help
Speaker 1: other people in their situations and their divorces. And I
Speaker 1: feel like that's what's happening for you. It just seems
Speaker 1: very poetic. Yeah, I think you're right. I think and
Speaker 1: I also think like for most of my life I
Speaker 1: had I've always had this like real desire to connect
Speaker 1: with people. Again, it's kind of comes back to I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't. I'm not a rate alone person. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm fine, and obviously I can manage, but I really
Speaker 1: enjoy talking to people, connecting asking them about their lives.
Speaker 1: Sharing that to me is like my joy in life,
Speaker 1: right and so and and I was always I was
Speaker 1: sort of prevented from being able to do that because
Speaker 1: my husband was exceedingly private and he kind of hated people. Actually, um,
Speaker 1: he was not social at all. And um, so we
Speaker 1: were very small, tightly in the family. Uh. And and
Speaker 1: then and then my celebrity sort of prevented me. And
Speaker 1: that's the kind of celebrity I had for being a momrse.
Speaker 1: You know, No, I mean, to be a model married
Speaker 1: to a rock star is not exactly relatable to the
Speaker 1: average person. To be to be, to be so that
Speaker 1: it didn't make you vulnerable or relatable or connected. So
Speaker 1: to be jilted at and alone as an empty nester
Speaker 1: and at your at your your bottom when everyone thinks
Speaker 1: you have a perfect life. That's related all you know,
Speaker 1: So here we are. That's really interesting and it makes
Speaker 1: a lot of sense, and it's so it was. Maybe
Speaker 1: it was a gift. Maybe the pandemic was a gift
Speaker 1: for you too, was one of those gifts that burns
Speaker 1: down your house. Yes, so you're not immediately grateful exactly.
Speaker 1: I get it. I get it, Believe me, I get it.
Speaker 1: I still can't see my situation as a gift either.
Speaker 1: I get what you're saying. But it definitely was a
Speaker 1: new chapter starter. Do you do you like where you
Speaker 1: are now? Better than at your happiest before all the
Speaker 1: things fell apart? Well, my childhood was the race track
Speaker 1: and gambling and seeing alcohol and drugs and going to
Speaker 1: nightclubs at thirteen years old and seeing crazy abuse and
Speaker 1: all kinds of nuts nuts things moving thirteen times. It
Speaker 1: was it was. But so as an adult I was
Speaker 1: a bit of an action junkie and I'm just like,
Speaker 1: let's do that, okay, there's a crisis in Ukraine. Okay,
Speaker 1: I could solve it. I can raise fifty million dollar,
Speaker 1: Like I get in all the way and can handle anything.
Speaker 1: So while I'm good for it, there's nothing I can't
Speaker 1: get done, it's not great for me. So at this
Speaker 1: stage in my life with my relationship, which is super solid, um,
Speaker 1: it's not as chaotic. So sometimes I have to realize
Speaker 1: that most people that are in solid, happy relationships with
Speaker 1: their kids and with their partners are hopefully at sort
Speaker 1: of a status quo, meaning it's not you know, Paul
Speaker 1: and I aren't you know, blowing lines of cocaine and
Speaker 1: going out to nightclubs on weekend like we we are
Speaker 1: literally embedded nine thirty. I'm drinking a mocktail like so,
Speaker 1: so sometimes my childhood action is going, wait, what what
Speaker 1: do we There's no problem? What are we doing? Like
Speaker 1: you know, and gets activated and gets activated by work.
Speaker 1: But I'm at the most happy and peaceful and feelings
Speaker 1: healthy and just like good every day and like this
Speaker 1: is great and in a positive attitude I've ever been in.
Speaker 1: But it's not like the crack when you first meet
Speaker 1: someone that's wrong for you and you're like, oh my God.
Speaker 1: You know, it's solid and peaceful and loving and the
Speaker 1: excitement um yeah, I guess yeah. I think all of
Speaker 1: us that were raised in like in those ways and
Speaker 1: then went on to have some um you know, public
Speaker 1: um success. You get used to those hits of adrenaline,
Speaker 1: yes and yeah, and so when you're without them, you
Speaker 1: go it's normal. It's totally peaceful, loving, healthy, normal, fun,
Speaker 1: laughing family. It's all that. It's just not me being
Speaker 1: in a nightclub at thirteen years old and my mother
Speaker 1: telling me how to get a fake ID to get
Speaker 1: into you know, the palladium with say to Howard the
Speaker 1: guy at the door, act like you belong, you know, like,
Speaker 1: it's not that. So you have to control that beast
Speaker 1: in our lives at addiction in our lives to the
Speaker 1: act and the getting thing. Yeah, and we get that
Speaker 1: to work a little. Yeah, Well I got it. I
Speaker 1: didn't actually I didn't miss it because I mean again,
Speaker 1: I was married for such a long time and I
Speaker 1: was like I was a mom, and I was you know,
Speaker 1: I have grandkids, step grandkids, I have my kids. I
Speaker 1: have a like this big family and houses that I
Speaker 1: was taking care of and taking care of my husband
Speaker 1: and taking care of everybody and feeling I guess I
Speaker 1: was validated by people needing me, you know, to take
Speaker 1: care of them nice. So yeah, but it's it sucks one.
Speaker 1: It sucks now, Well you'll they'll be the next chapter.
Speaker 1: That's the part that I'm figuring out now where I
Speaker 1: feel like I've done such a tremendous amount of growing
Speaker 1: in the last three years, like you know, like had
Speaker 1: your bones broken and regrown like that kind of growing. Um,
Speaker 1: and I think it's kind of made me taller. You know.
Speaker 1: Do you want to be connected to someone again that
Speaker 1: you do you want to be in a relationship? Yeah? Absolutely.
Speaker 1: I kind of feel like being able to have a
Speaker 1: life in which you can share. I love sharing. I
Speaker 1: mean sharing is obviously I love sharing over sharing for
Speaker 1: another book that's funny. Yeah, yeah, you love sharing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so um, you know, uh, having all these wonderful
Speaker 1: experiences which I have been having this year has been
Speaker 1: kind of a miraculous year of so much travel and
Speaker 1: so back to work and I'm getting my purpose and um,
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm I'm connecting to people in a
Speaker 1: whole different way than I was able to do earlier.
Speaker 1: So I'm really like my, uh my, my career life
Speaker 1: is just freaking awesome. Right now. I'm the happiest I've
Speaker 1: been with what I am able to do and where
Speaker 1: I'm doing it and who I am speaking to and
Speaker 1: all of that. But then I come out and for
Speaker 1: the first time in my life, I have nobody to
Speaker 1: share it with. I don't. But that's a better box
Speaker 1: to check before checking the relationship and then the career.
Speaker 1: So I would say, at least you have the right
Speaker 1: first box check because you're going to come into whatever
Speaker 1: relationship with this is what's going on, this is what
Speaker 1: I am, this is this foundation, and then that will
Speaker 1: be additive. Sure, but also trying to I mean dating
Speaker 1: in New York when you're fifty seven, I mean, have
Speaker 1: you what's your approach? Oh, I've done every approach there
Speaker 1: is in the book. I've gone on blind dates, I've
Speaker 1: gone on apps, I've gone on you know, I've met
Speaker 1: people with my my friends. You know what. What? So
Speaker 1: with online dating, you need to be at Barney's. You
Speaker 1: need to be at a select type of department store.
Speaker 1: You cannot be at Macy's, like at at at Walmart.
Speaker 1: For this, you do not want to be on Amazon
Speaker 1: because it's overwhelming and you get full and then you
Speaker 1: get just diracted. But also you have to be a
Speaker 1: very discerning customer. You need to decide ahead of time,
Speaker 1: write down what exactly you want, and do not settle
Speaker 1: at all that I've I've, I've got my list, I
Speaker 1: know what my priorities are. Okay, and I've and you
Speaker 1: know they have changed radically in you know, I think, um,
Speaker 1: it's so funny because I always thought, you know, funny, smart, sexy,
Speaker 1: was like, you know, really important, and then I realized
Speaker 1: that I left off probably the most important thing, which
Speaker 1: was physically and emotionally available. Yes, and I'm sorry. You
Speaker 1: need someone successful because otherwise it's an awkward pause in
Speaker 1: every vacation, at every dinner in the room. You just
Speaker 1: do you need someone that's let you say, I've I've
Speaker 1: because you know, I've had so much advice on like
Speaker 1: what sort of dating I should be doing, and people
Speaker 1: keep saying date real guys. Date date real guys that
Speaker 1: are just going to adore you and treasure you, and
Speaker 1: you know they don't have to be like the blob lab.
Speaker 1: So I I've gone out on dates with real guys. Um,
Speaker 1: and um, they either talk about themselves endlessly to try
Speaker 1: to you know, bolster there or or they can't talk
Speaker 1: to me at all. So yeah, no, it's not it's
Speaker 1: kind of doesn't work super well. No, it doesn't mean
Speaker 1: you're a bad person because you're not supposed to be
Speaker 1: dating someone that works at a drug store. It means
Speaker 1: that you've accomplished a lot, and you need to be
Speaker 1: able to have an educated conversation with someone who is
Speaker 1: passionate and who has accomplished something and wants to accomplish more,
Speaker 1: because that's what you want to do. You're not going
Speaker 1: to respect someone who's sitting around on their ass. And
Speaker 1: I've been through it, and believe me, it's the one
Speaker 1: biggest challenge to me in any relationship is someone not
Speaker 1: feeling like they have to prove something because I have
Speaker 1: so much naturally going on every day that walks into
Speaker 1: this door. So someone else is going to be like,
Speaker 1: oh I did this, and this happened, and because no
Speaker 1: one feels and then also find actually people are going
Speaker 1: to say, well, I mean I'm not Aristotle Onassis, but
Speaker 1: so I know you're used to this, but and you
Speaker 1: just don't need that kind of thing, because that gets
Speaker 1: worse so you need to be at Barney's, not Amazon Barney.
Speaker 1: You need to be at Barneys even though Barney's closed.
Speaker 1: But it's okay, okay, you need to be at the
Speaker 1: proverbial Barney's. Um so, and then I'm gonna leave alone soon.
Speaker 1: It's like a stalking relationship. Now, what about um plastic surgery?
Speaker 1: Have you had it? Do you? What do you think
Speaker 1: about it? Do you want it? For a plastic surgery? Um? There?
Speaker 1: I mean, I I am always kind of I'm always
Speaker 1: feeling like I'm sort of torn in half about like
Speaker 1: what what what? What do I want? Who do I
Speaker 1: believe in? What do I find attractive on other people?
Speaker 1: I know I don't have any fillers or any botox, right,
Speaker 1: and that's a personal choice. Never have, never have, no Wow,
Speaker 1: but I did I have. I've done lasers. I'm all
Speaker 1: for like non invasive promises that I'm going to restore
Speaker 1: my college and to prepubscent. Not that it works really
Speaker 1: that well, but I've you know, I I love doing
Speaker 1: that because that makes me feel like I'm not doing anything. Really.
Speaker 1: You know, you look stunning and you look like you
Speaker 1: look natural, and you look like a woman. And I
Speaker 1: used to always think about the way Susan Surrandon used
Speaker 1: to look when I was young, and she looked like
Speaker 1: she was aging beautifully. And I just did the plastic
Speaker 1: surgery tour just so you know, So I now I'm
Speaker 1: a semi expert on it because I've done it twice.
Speaker 1: What do you mean tour? So I too. I will
Speaker 1: get botox probably once or twice a year if I remember, like,
Speaker 1: I'm also not vain, so I look. If I just
Speaker 1: go like this and I'm like, oh, well, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of lines there, then maybe I'll do it. But
Speaker 1: I'm not religious about it. And I don't ever really
Speaker 1: look in my face, um, except do I look rested,
Speaker 1: Like I like that look of that freshness in the morning.
Speaker 1: And I always have some sort of of a black
Speaker 1: circle and even more so when I am, which is weird. Um.
Speaker 1: But I one time had philler only because I had
Speaker 1: the botox in my TMJ jaw that made it collapse
Speaker 1: over a course of time, and so someone said filler
Speaker 1: and I didn't like it, and I didn't do it again. Um.
Speaker 1: I'm not up on everything. I don't read articles on this,
Speaker 1: so I don't I've never had any of those other,
Speaker 1: like the strings or any of the other stuff done.
Speaker 1: I've had peels. Okay, So I someone one of my
Speaker 1: friends who's a very well known celebrity said to me,
Speaker 1: and she's vain, she and you're not, and I'm not.
Speaker 1: So you gotta split the difference. She said, you're late,
Speaker 1: not meeting. Go do something. Just as a part of
Speaker 1: a conversation. Oh yeah, everyone's lying. Everyone's done it, and
Speaker 1: you're late. And I'm fifty two and she and you're
Speaker 1: fifty seven. So she said, you're late. Um, and everyone's
Speaker 1: done something and they're all lying about it. I said, oh,
Speaker 1: and two of my friends have done individual things that
Speaker 1: actually bothered them. Now I don't have a specific thing
Speaker 1: like aging. I guess would be a thing that could
Speaker 1: boy the US or the black circles, But like, I
Speaker 1: don't have a specific thing like the neck or whatever.
Speaker 1: Just that line over and your smile now it's gotten longer.
Speaker 1: That's annoying. In pictures, and I look back now and
Speaker 1: I had that ten years ago. By the way, so
Speaker 1: this isn't like I just never saw it. I look
Speaker 1: in pictures. I just saw something yesterday on my Wikipedia
Speaker 1: I was an old picture. I'm like wait, I keep
Speaker 1: thinking that's an a old thing. I've had that for years.
Speaker 1: So they had gone, and I went on to meet
Speaker 1: the people who said the thing, the guys, the different doctors,
Speaker 1: and what they do say. They all say is if
Speaker 1: you are going to do something, like if you do
Speaker 1: think you're going to do something, and if you're not,
Speaker 1: then great, because I know people who haven't like you,
Speaker 1: and you look amazing. You could run the whole thing.
Speaker 1: I could probably tell you could let it ride. But
Speaker 1: if you have decided that you're going to do something,
Speaker 1: they say, between forty eight and fifty two fifty three
Speaker 1: the way that your face chronologically, the age of your
Speaker 1: face chronologically looks, And they said forty eight for me,
Speaker 1: but that between forty eight and fifty three is an
Speaker 1: optimal time to do it because if you're into your
Speaker 1: you know, sixties, there's more to do, and then because
Speaker 1: there's more that's come down, so then there's more likelihood
Speaker 1: of a more dramatic look and change. And also that
Speaker 1: if you do it in your fifties, it lasts longer
Speaker 1: like the last fifteen years, but if you do it
Speaker 1: in your sixties, it lasts half that time, so it
Speaker 1: becomes more of a logical thing, not like me looking
Speaker 1: in my face today? But am I eventually teeth too?
Speaker 1: Same with the teeth? Are we getting on this road?
Speaker 1: If all the doctors are saying you're getting on this
Speaker 1: road because of erosion or t MJ, when are we
Speaker 1: getting on? Like? That's the thing. So if a person
Speaker 1: not in you, Paulina, but I'm sure you have an opinion,
Speaker 1: If a person does think that they probably will get
Speaker 1: on that road, then when are they entering into this journey?
Speaker 1: And with how much? That's what I liked about the
Speaker 1: tour was that it became not about I don't like
Speaker 1: the way I look. It became about a logical decision.
Speaker 1: So I liked that about it. Okay, I can I
Speaker 1: can see that. Um, I have a I sort of
Speaker 1: have a slightly different view on it. Those good let's
Speaker 1: see well again. So here's my question to you, um
Speaker 1: are you are you happy with the way you look
Speaker 1: right now? Like? Do you think you are a good
Speaker 1: yew a good version of you? I am? I I am,
Speaker 1: but I don't want to be sixty two and then
Speaker 1: I should have entered earlier. That's the thing. Yes, So
Speaker 1: that's a conversation. What you're saying, yes, I do right now,
Speaker 1: like the way that I mean with the you know,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm aging, I'm a person. It's well norm The
Speaker 1: thing like, my question is like, why do we need
Speaker 1: to fix our faces as if they were broken with age?
Speaker 1: Are they really broken because you're aging? I mean, look
Speaker 1: at me, I've got lots of wrinkles. I'm getting slightly gelly,
Speaker 1: which I don't love the gels, the gels in the churn. Okay,
Speaker 1: that's what One of my friends had a real problem
Speaker 1: with the gels and it kept getting worse. And then
Speaker 1: she and the next thing so and she looks like
Speaker 1: she did nothing. I like, I like, I like this.
Speaker 1: I like the tendons. I think they're cool. I think
Speaker 1: they look strong. So those I'm like, I'm embracing this.
Speaker 1: I think they and I like them in other women too.
Speaker 1: But I don't like the skin that hangs off, that
Speaker 1: makes you look like you're melting. Okay that I'm not
Speaker 1: like super into. But I like my wrinkles. I like
Speaker 1: I like the life I've lived that's imprinted on my
Speaker 1: face and I don't want to take that away. I
Speaker 1: love that, and so I gets so the jelly things
Speaker 1: will not. But if they were really bothering you, Like
Speaker 1: my friend, they didn't bother until and she's you know,
Speaker 1: gotten older, until they really bothered her. And then she
Speaker 1: only did that one thing because it bothered her, and
Speaker 1: you cannot tell she had anything done like this is
Speaker 1: not clown like and that is like, that is what
Speaker 1: If I have something done, it will be because one
Speaker 1: thing bothers me a lot, and I will want to
Speaker 1: just smooth it out so it's not so it doesn't
Speaker 1: bother me anymore. But want to inhabit the same age
Speaker 1: and the same face, and you know we are going
Speaker 1: to get older, there's no around it. Do I want
Speaker 1: to look like? Um? I do not want to look
Speaker 1: like I'm thirty nine because it's impossible and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: look weird and I don't want to be you know
Speaker 1: when I this is like my my tagline on on
Speaker 1: on Instagram that I do a lot of hashtag between
Speaker 1: and Betty White. It's exactly because of this, because we
Speaker 1: are used and this is this representation. Remember what we
Speaker 1: were talking about, It's about representation. How much representation are
Speaker 1: there of women who are fifty seven who look like
Speaker 1: I do that have a fully you know that have
Speaker 1: a wrinkled phase that's fully movable and that you know
Speaker 1: hasn't had any alterations to it. There's not very many
Speaker 1: of us, so well, I'm not very well represented. We agree, Okay,
Speaker 1: so we do agree because I am not vain and
Speaker 1: any reason. It's like sort of like I don't like
Speaker 1: when there's a little tiny on my shirt or a stain,
Speaker 1: but I don't mind if it's an old shirt. That's so.
Speaker 1: So I'm saying I if that line, it just annoys me.
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to do with being ninety nine or
Speaker 1: twenty nine. It's just a thing um or if it
Speaker 1: hip and a tooth, I could feel it. It drives
Speaker 1: me nuts to chip in a tooth like in the back.
Speaker 1: But it's not age related. It's not at all. So
Speaker 1: we agree more than you think. Because I don't want
Speaker 1: to look younger. I don't filter my pictures. I yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't somebody that doesn't filter. I don't want to
Speaker 1: look younger. I want to look like I do. But
Speaker 1: if there's something like a gel or the hollow, because
Speaker 1: I'm thin and because I my my jaw went, that's
Speaker 1: the conversation I'm having. I and the doctor said, there
Speaker 1: are people that come in here. They want the Beverly
Speaker 1: Hills look, they want the Palm beach look. They want
Speaker 1: to this look, they want the that look. And good
Speaker 1: surgery is no look. And my friends that have had
Speaker 1: it done, you cannot tell. They're almost one of them
Speaker 1: is almost annoyed because it's like she went in and
Speaker 1: you can't even tell, because she's lives in one of
Speaker 1: those places where you know, they look a little doll like.
Speaker 1: And if you want the doll like look, go for yours.
Speaker 1: Do whatever you want. I love being my age. I'm
Speaker 1: raising my hand in fifty two. I'm I love it.
Speaker 1: So yes, I we agree more than you know all
Speaker 1: we we you in fact agree, but I'm sort of
Speaker 1: just I am. I'm like my The thing that's like
Speaker 1: such a big part of this is that I feel
Speaker 1: as women who I mean, first of all, we're shamed
Speaker 1: for everything from the moment we grow up, right, we're
Speaker 1: like shamed for the way we look and the way
Speaker 1: we act. And we're too nice. We're not nice enough
Speaker 1: to make too much money, too little money. You're not
Speaker 1: a good mother, you're too much of a hovering I mean,
Speaker 1: everything that's like just Jame James, James James Jame on you, right,
Speaker 1: and and looks are and looks are one of the
Speaker 1: things that because it can put us ahead and then
Speaker 1: it feels like it can hold you back. And so
Speaker 1: it looks are so important to us women, And I mean,
Speaker 1: sure do we wish that it wasn't so, but it's
Speaker 1: been like this for thousands of years And is it
Speaker 1: going to go way next year? No, It's but that
Speaker 1: for different people, I looks have done nothing. Looks do
Speaker 1: nothing for me in my career like they for you.
Speaker 1: They have been a currency. For me. It could almost
Speaker 1: be if I filter myself and look hot and sexy
Speaker 1: and have big giant Medusa hair and a curvy little
Speaker 1: way like I will be trolled because it's such a sellout,
Speaker 1: Like looks are not part of what I have put
Speaker 1: forth in my career. But you are all about being
Speaker 1: an authentic person like that. This is what draws me
Speaker 1: to you is that I feel like you're telling me
Speaker 1: the truth every step of the way. So if you
Speaker 1: if you filtered your face and you're lying over in
Speaker 1: this one specific area, I agree are from the authenticity right,
Speaker 1: But um, I feel like there's not enough representation of
Speaker 1: older women. There's a hole between j Lo, who is
Speaker 1: like your age and looks like she's thirty nine and
Speaker 1: totally like freaking amazing, and then Betty White, who was
Speaker 1: snapped cract Lee and they saying, oh broad, you know,
Speaker 1: and it's like, then you get visible visible again because
Speaker 1: you're so adorable, you're so cute. Look, she's ninety and
Speaker 1: she's still like full of pet But in between those
Speaker 1: two there's like there's no representation. That's that's true. But
Speaker 1: by the way, that's what's interesting because just like the
Speaker 1: runway and different people being on it, people are deciding
Speaker 1: to change and and and and there. I agree with you.
Speaker 1: But if somebody wants to do something, as long as
Speaker 1: they're honest, that that's where you get me. Like if
Speaker 1: I decided to get a new face, if I decided
Speaker 1: to get green eye, but I have green eyes, but
Speaker 1: purple eyes, blue eyes, blonde hair. I'm just gonna be
Speaker 1: honest about it. But please don't tell me it's yoga
Speaker 1: and water. No, I won't, and I don't. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: I will say that this is a stupid analogy, and
Speaker 1: then I'll leave you alone to your life. And whoever
Speaker 1: before um. When I first started on Housewives, I was
Speaker 1: wearing a cable knit sweater, no makeup, doing my own
Speaker 1: makeup in these interviews, and just being totally the real.
Speaker 1: If you went out to an event, you went to
Speaker 1: the TRISCHMCA boy counter bloom, he doesn't got your makeup
Speaker 1: done on, Like we didn't have glam squads and you didn't.
Speaker 1: You weren't putting a gown on before. You just meet
Speaker 1: four people in a camera guy for cocktails like it wasn't.
Speaker 1: But that's what it's come to now, and in this
Speaker 1: industry it's hard. I couldn't just go back in the
Speaker 1: end we still and and be in my sweatpants, like
Speaker 1: you look weird. Denise Richards walked into a scene with
Speaker 1: these people on Housewives and looked crazy because they were
Speaker 1: all wearing a head to toe Gucci and the jazz
Speaker 1: old f's on their vagina, Like so she had to
Speaker 1: up her game a little because otherwise it would be weird.
Speaker 1: So we have to find that balance between upping our
Speaker 1: game a little and not not representing a fifty something
Speaker 1: your old woman. I think that's the problem. You've got
Speaker 1: nine out of ten people doing something and then you're
Speaker 1: sitting here alone, the only person who's not filtered, and
Speaker 1: you're like trying to explain. It's like wearing the pregnancy
Speaker 1: t shirt, like I'm actually pregnant. I'm uploaded. You want
Speaker 1: to be like, Hi, I'm not filtered, because I know
Speaker 1: you're looking left and right and everyone looks hot and
Speaker 1: I look like a wreck. But I just want to
Speaker 1: know I'm not filtered, and you want the extra cookie
Speaker 1: for it. I have to do this all the time,
Speaker 1: like now, when I get booked for like the odd
Speaker 1: model modeling shoot and they they and I it's in
Speaker 1: a different country and they want me to show up
Speaker 1: at eight o'clock in the morning. I'm like, guys, um,
Speaker 1: I have a fifty seven year old face with a
Speaker 1: fifty seven year old reaction to travel, and I'm looking
Speaker 1: up at eight o'clock in the morning and I look
Speaker 1: like crap until like three o'clock in the afternoon, you know,
Speaker 1: the first day, so like be aware that that's what
Speaker 1: you're gonna get, right, And it's like people don't people
Speaker 1: don't listen or they don't pay attention. And then you
Speaker 1: show up and they're all like, well, okay, but we're
Speaker 1: gonna do about those arm bags. What are we gonna
Speaker 1: do about this? Yeah, rights are really coffy, like yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I told you that's like the maintenance is
Speaker 1: different when you my age in order to yeah, you can,
Speaker 1: I mean, but again, I really want to normalize this.
Speaker 1: I want to normal The truth is, I'm not kidding you,
Speaker 1: and I'm the most honest person. You know. I would
Speaker 1: tell you you look, I really would you look. And
Speaker 1: you've looked like a reckon some of those Instagram pictures
Speaker 1: that you posted just like me. You look at me.
Speaker 1: You happen to look amazing. I think because you know
Speaker 1: you were starting you were at like a Michelin star,
Speaker 1: like you started at such a high level that what's
Speaker 1: deteriorated and you has gotten you down to being just
Speaker 1: like normally beautiful, not like alien crazy beautiful. That's what
Speaker 1: I think. I'm looking at you, and I'm telling you
Speaker 1: right now you're stunning and in a fresh and natural beautiful.
Speaker 1: You look amazing. I think it's because you were starting
Speaker 1: at air Mes, so now you're maybe the affordable air Mes.
Speaker 1: You were like the rare him Alayan birkin encrusted in diamonds,
Speaker 1: and now maybe you're just like you know, a rare crocodile,
Speaker 1: you know, with with with palladium hardware. Like maybe you're
Speaker 1: not the I think that's what the problem is. Like
Speaker 1: you started at such a high level that you just
Speaker 1: got knocked down on hap at such a high level,
Speaker 1: with zero self awareness, with a rebellious attitude and smooth skin,
Speaker 1: And I wasn't picking off the person that I'm not,
Speaker 1: not even a quarter of the person that I am now,
Speaker 1: the level of patience and intelligence and insight and humor
Speaker 1: and everything else that I've got going on inside. Um,
Speaker 1: I had none of that. And that's when I was
Speaker 1: in my prime. And I'm like, no, no, I'm in
Speaker 1: my prime now, Yes what prime? In this woman looks
Speaker 1: like it looks older. I love it. I think it's amazing,
Speaker 1: I really do. And you had such hardship as a child,
Speaker 1: and then modeling came easy to you, and then you
Speaker 1: had another bump and had hard hard ship after your marriage.
Speaker 1: You're on a roller coaster. That's beautiful. And I really
Speaker 1: like where you are now too, And I'm so happy
Speaker 1: to know you now, Like you know you're gonna tell
Speaker 1: you I'm gonna get that wallpaper and put it somewhere
Speaker 1: just to remember you and and yeah, you're my favorite
Speaker 1: aramaz bag. Well m kind of wrinkled, yes, just like
Speaker 1: you know, I'm saying that's yeah. Anyway, you're wonderful inside
Speaker 1: and out is the most important. And I'm so happy
Speaker 1: to have met you again, to your beth Any and ditto,
Speaker 1: and I like, I love everything we do again. It's
Speaker 1: like the honesty, the authenticity and the putting out the
Speaker 1: good out into the world. You know, thank you. That's
Speaker 1: if we all could do a little bit more of that,
Speaker 1: we would well would be a better place. I'm ranting
Speaker 1: and raving and between all these podcasts and I don't
Speaker 1: get to talk to interesting people and hear their stories.
Speaker 1: And wow, Pauline and I had a great conversation. And
Speaker 1: I love when you know it's not just like a
Speaker 1: yes everything you say is perfect and yes everything I
Speaker 1: say is perfect. It's just an interesting conversation back and forth. Um,
Speaker 1: two women in their fifties who have been through a
Speaker 1: lot of craziness. And I loved it. She's so interesting
Speaker 1: and really beautiful inside and out. What a wonderful conversation.
Speaker 1: I'm really better for that