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Speaker 1: Previously on Weedy and House.

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Speaker 2: Cities and counties are criminalizing people, basically treating people as

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Speaker 2: criminals just for being un housed. But the fact is

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Speaker 2: people still do have rights, you know, civil rights, statutory rights,

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Speaker 2: and it's important to remember that it's important for cities

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Speaker 2: to remember this is only one narrow Supreme Court ruling

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Speaker 2: and there are a lot of other rights that play here.

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Speaker 3: I think that it's sad that it takes the sort

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Speaker 3: of crisis for many people to realize that. But I

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Speaker 3: think you're absolutely right that there are folks who were

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Speaker 3: sitting in their comfortable homes a month ago and now

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Speaker 3: are not and are thinking I'm now an unhealth person,

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Speaker 3: and that is relatedly forcing them to realize that everyone

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Speaker 3: deserves dignity, and everyone deserves respect, and everyone deserves legal protections.

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Speaker 4: Welcome back to Weedy in House. I'm your host, Theo Henderson.

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Speaker 4: This episode is a continuation of the Educate, Liberate, Motivate series.

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Speaker 4: We're going to tackle the issue in today's episode from

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Speaker 4: two different directions.

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Speaker 1: But first, fun House News.

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Speaker 4: Our top story houseless children won shelter extension after the

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Speaker 4: city of San Francisco threatens to evictim two families one

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Speaker 4: a thirty day extension until April ten, twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 4: Where will they go after this is unknown. The children

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Speaker 4: of one family are in kindergarten at third grade. The

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Speaker 4: second family is the mother and her second grader. They

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Speaker 4: will be forced to leave the shelter at five pm.

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Speaker 4: The families will be forced to sleep on the streets

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Speaker 4: because there is no housing solution available. The houseless Department

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Speaker 4: defended this action, saying that policy is used to increase

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Speaker 4: the flow of families through the shelter system. Meanwhile, staff

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Speaker 4: from Flint Elementary, where the children attend school, state they

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Speaker 4: are usually sixty to eighty unhoused students enrolled in school.

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Speaker 4: Our second story takes us to Chicago, Illinois. Houseless people

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Speaker 4: are having challenges in obtaining homes with their housing voucher deadlines.

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Speaker 4: Either landlords requested high rent payments or wouldn't accept the vouchers.

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Speaker 4: Voucher holders typically paid thirty percent of their income toward rent,

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Speaker 4: with housing authorities paying the rest. In Illinois, the majority

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Speaker 4: of vouchure holders are African American advocates say some of

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Speaker 4: the barriers voulture recipients face is housing discrimination. Vouduer recipients

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Speaker 4: have one hundred and twenty days to lease a unit.

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Speaker 4: Our third and final story has been in the media

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Speaker 4: recently because of the celebrity status of ex member of

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Speaker 4: InVogue Don Roma. She has taken to social media to

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Speaker 4: announce her magical adventure of living in her car. This

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Speaker 4: story has been picked up a very media outlet and

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Speaker 4: commentators pushing a narrative that is lopsided.

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Speaker 1: Robinson herself has.

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Speaker 4: Made it clear that sleeping in her car is her choice,

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Speaker 4: that she is not un housed, and that the experience

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Speaker 4: has been freeing and enjoyable. I can't speak for don

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Speaker 4: Robinson's experience living in the car, only my own. I

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Speaker 4: can speak on my diabetic kademon that was forming while

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Speaker 4: sleeping in the car. I can speak on the inflammation

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Speaker 4: of automobile arthritis that besets people living in their cars.

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Speaker 4: I can speak on the constant fear of being discovered

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Speaker 4: by house people and neighbors who see you enter the car,

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Speaker 4: and in an inevitable questioning of law enforcement. I am

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Speaker 4: not alone in facing these type of realities. There are

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Speaker 4: many families living in automobiles and RVs due to the

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Speaker 4: eviction and or floating reds while Miss Robinson smiles for

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Speaker 4: the camera extalling these zen like enlightenment in ventures, the

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Speaker 4: city of La cracks down on people sleeping in cars,

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Speaker 4: particularly near schools. Supporters of Miss Robinson have uphold her

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Speaker 4: life in her life choice and demand we butt out

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Speaker 4: of her choice and her announcement of her living situation

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Speaker 4: on social media. Dealing with houselessness myself over eight years,

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Speaker 4: I would be remissing saying houselessness is not a monolith

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Speaker 4: and people should have personal choice in how they tell

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Speaker 4: the story. So here's my experience and story as a

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Speaker 4: person that experienced houselessness that was overlooked by missus Robinson's

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Speaker 4: be a tyfic expression of choice, and that's on House News.

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Speaker 4: When we come back, we'll be speaking with returning guest

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Speaker 4: Curtis Howard. Welcome back to Weedian Howes.

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Speaker 1: I'm THEO and.

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Speaker 4: The theme of this episode is a continuation of the Educate,

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Speaker 4: Liberate and Motivate series. I would be remiss if I

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Speaker 4: did not include this episode with two interviews in order

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Speaker 4: to educate the community on how harmful and academics work

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Speaker 4: can be to a vulnerable community and how important it

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Speaker 4: is to elevate lived experience and push back against these

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Speaker 4: views no matter where they originate. The African American community

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Speaker 4: has vast knowledge and experience and how research has been

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Speaker 4: used negatively against them to justify erasure, harm and trauma.

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Speaker 4: To educate my new listeners about the realities of the

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Speaker 4: incarceration of African and American men, I interviewed returning guest

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Speaker 4: Curtis Howard on his lived experience to be a counterpoint

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Speaker 4: in dismantling the inaccuracies posed by many academics. Lived experienced

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Speaker 4: trump theoretical inaccuracy every time.

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Speaker 1: Later in this.

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Speaker 4: Episode, I will use the same methodology of educate, liberate,

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Speaker 4: and motivate to speak with an academic guest about the

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Speaker 4: misinformation omitted historical facts and his way of dismissing lived

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Speaker 4: experience and these important realities in vulnerable communities, communities that

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Speaker 4: he and many academics are writing about with authority with

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Speaker 4: a confidence that their message is from the tablet of Moses.

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Speaker 4: But like in the Bible, those tablets were broken. But first,

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Speaker 4: let me welcome returning guest Curtis Howard. I wanted to

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Speaker 4: just take a moment and start off to introduce the

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Speaker 4: returning guest of ours.

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Speaker 1: Mister Curtis Howard.

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Speaker 4: We connected when we were in Washington talking about various

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Speaker 4: details and different experiences that he had and I had

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Speaker 4: commiserating of our experiences of being none house and the

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Speaker 4: challenges that the face. But there has been more instant,

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Speaker 4: more recent things that I want to have him come

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Speaker 4: back on the show, in particular to talk about the

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Speaker 4: conversation of incarcerated. You're going to hear from an academic

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Speaker 4: that has a perspective that is not always framed in

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Speaker 4: the correct vein or not necessarily tells the complete story,

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Speaker 4: and sometimes the lens is kind of biased, or from

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Speaker 4: a white supremacist lens or a white poorly educated lens

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Speaker 4: that needs to be expanded it and augmented on.

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Speaker 1: So without for ado, I'm going to let him introduce himself.

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Speaker 4: We'll start off with some softball questions and then we'll

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Speaker 4: get down into the meat of the matter. Welcome, Mr

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Speaker 4: Curtis Howard, and thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, it's great being here. Always good to see you.

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Speaker 5: I do recall we have touched face quite a few

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Speaker 5: times and it's always a pleasure and the conversation is

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Speaker 5: always uplifting and always you know, It's always a good

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Speaker 5: perspective and.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes funny and good chuckle too, check too.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, always enjoyable. I am Curtis Howard. I'm formerly the

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Speaker 5: president of the San Diego chapter of All of Us

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Speaker 5: are None ten years. I just retired after New Year

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Speaker 5: at the start of the new year after ten years

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Speaker 5: with All of Us are None a national organization that

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Speaker 5: advocates for formally incarcerated people, currently incarcerated people in their families.

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Speaker 5: All the work we do is around incarceration, so we

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Speaker 5: do a lot of policy work, march, a lot on

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Speaker 5: the state capitol, change laws, you know. Most recently we

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Speaker 5: did Prop six to enslave labor within the prison so visiting.

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Speaker 5: We did Yes I'm seventeen, to restore the right to

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Speaker 5: vote for fifty thousand people in California who were on

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Speaker 5: probation in parole. So everything we do is centered around incarceration.

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Speaker 5: Seventy percent of the membership of All of us are

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Speaker 5: None are formerly incarcerated people. So we really are about

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Speaker 5: the lived experience, lens on perspectives and decision making.

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Speaker 4: If you don't mind me asking a sensitive question is

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Speaker 4: how did you get involved in the work and what

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Speaker 4: did you see that motivated you to stay for ten

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Speaker 4: years because, as you know, in this microwave society now,

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Speaker 4: to be able to say you've been somewhere ten years,

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Speaker 4: even going to the same Harick Parper, that's definitely something

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Speaker 4: to say.

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Speaker 1: So you know you.

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Speaker 5: Right about that. You know, Actually the motivation stem from

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Speaker 5: me holding myself accountable to more than just me, because

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Speaker 5: I was homeless when I joined All of Us Are

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Speaker 5: None in twenty and fourteen. I was actually home and

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Speaker 5: so I wasn't one of the people who slept on

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Speaker 5: the sidewalk and pitched a tent. But I was really

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Speaker 5: proactive in when it comes to changing and surviving. So

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Speaker 5: I was on survival mode and a lot of times,

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Speaker 5: coming from where I come from, survival mode means doing

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Speaker 5: whatever you gotta do to make something happen.

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Speaker 4: In street terms, taking penitentiary chances absolutely.

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Speaker 5: And because of that, I knew, because I knew that

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Speaker 5: when I'm on survival mode, it's not good mode to

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Speaker 5: be on. So I immediately injected myself into community because

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Speaker 5: doing community held myself accountable to more than just me.

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Speaker 5: If it was just me needing to change my situation,

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Speaker 5: I would go out there and do whatever. But when

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Speaker 5: I have the community behind me and I have their

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Speaker 5: expectations of me upholding a certain character, then I'm stuck

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Speaker 5: in that frame right there. So I just wanted to

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Speaker 5: hold myself and make and level up on something bigger

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Speaker 5: that would take me out of the risk factor of

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Speaker 5: survival mode.

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Speaker 1: Let me take it back, you know, throwback.

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Speaker 4: What was the challenge when you first got out recently

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Speaker 4: when you was incarcerated, and then what was the hurdles

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Speaker 4: that you felt was tough to overcome? Give us a

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Speaker 4: little insight on that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, the first challenge was just coming home because you

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Speaker 5: always think, you know, you're so glad to be free.

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Speaker 5: So I was gone for ten years, so I was

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Speaker 5: really you know, everything was I'm free, I'm free, I'm out,

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Speaker 5: I'm out. But I hadn't considered the other things in

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Speaker 5: the battles and everything of being free. I just wanted

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Speaker 5: to be free, and you don't really think and consider that.

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Speaker 5: But then when I came home to San Diego, I

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Speaker 5: got off the bus at the Greyhound bus station in

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Speaker 5: downtown San Diego, and I didn't know which way to go.

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Speaker 5: I was like, when I walked out, I was like,

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Speaker 5: should I go left or right? You know, I was like, well,

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Speaker 5: the water is to the right, so it's not too

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Speaker 5: much further to go that way. So I just went up.

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Speaker 5: So my struggle started immediately because there was nothing waiting

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Speaker 5: for people coming home. And that's why I work on

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Speaker 5: Justice Impacted committees and housing now because of the fact

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Speaker 5: that we're trying to make things to where people can

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Speaker 5: come home and have at least something waiting, at least

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Speaker 5: a temporary shelter or a temporary place to go.

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Speaker 4: Yes, you mentioned houselessness experience one of the things too

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Speaker 4: that I noticed, even if you did have family I do.

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Speaker 4: It is also a learning curve and if you've lived

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Speaker 4: in a certain way for maybe, like you said, ten years,

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Speaker 4: your expectations are going to be challenged when you're free

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Speaker 4: and where you're.

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Speaker 1: Dealing with free people.

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Speaker 4: They don't not do bet rolls check or you know,

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Speaker 4: get up at three o'clock in the morning, or you know,

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Speaker 4: do you a spread or create pruno or pruno or

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Speaker 4: whatever it is, So you know, it's a little bit

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Speaker 4: different than that. So, you know, and to react to

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Speaker 4: things in the setting of a prison environment where people

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Speaker 4: are freer to engage themselves however they want to without

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Speaker 4: worrying about, you know, getting a write up or something

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Speaker 4: that's going to be adding more time to them.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, And you know what took me out of even

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Speaker 5: considering going with family because everybody that's the first thing

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Speaker 5: they say, do you have family? Well, most people do

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Speaker 5: have family, But what they don't understand is that when

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Speaker 5: you come home, you are considered what they call a

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Speaker 5: fourth waiver, and a fourth waiver means you have no

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Speaker 5: rights to search and seizure. Any resident that you move

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Speaker 5: into falls up under fourth waiver because they are housing

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Speaker 5: someone who is on probation or role. This subjects then

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Speaker 5: entire household to random searches, random home invasions by the

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Speaker 5: authorities who come and knock on the door. I've done

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Speaker 5: it before. I'm telling you this because I've experienced it before,

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Speaker 5: and that's why i didn't go home. That's why I

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Speaker 5: didn't go to a brother to assist, or to anyone

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Speaker 5: who I truly care about, because I'm not going to

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Speaker 5: subject their house to these type of searches. And I've

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Speaker 5: been places where I live where people let me live,

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Speaker 5: and you have to have an address, you have to

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Speaker 5: reveal that address to them, and when you do, all

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Speaker 5: of a sudden, you're at home, five six o'clock in

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Speaker 5: the evening. They knock on the door. It's six or

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Speaker 5: seven guys with yellowjackets on, telling everybody in the house,

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Speaker 5: come to the front of a house, sit down in

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Speaker 5: a living room. We're running warrant checks on everyone in

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Speaker 5: the house. Kept everyone out of the rooms. We need

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Speaker 5: everyone name, we need to run checks on everybody. I mean,

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Speaker 5: who's gonna go and subject to family members to that.

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Speaker 4: And thank you for bringing that up, because that's a

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Speaker 4: point I didn't know that they were doing. And then too,

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Speaker 4: it creates that distance and that tension with the family

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Speaker 4: because you know, we all have creative families that do

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Speaker 4: things that we don't know what they're doing. And it's

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Speaker 4: their house. You know, we're not rummaging through that stuff.

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Speaker 4: And you know, they may smoke a little weed or

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Speaker 4: whatever they got going on, and that jumps up, and

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Speaker 4: then you're in violation because you've got some narcotic or

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Speaker 4: something or whatever.

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Speaker 1: And now you're in a whole new spell of trouble.

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Speaker 4: And now they are because they don't know, they're thinking,

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Speaker 4: they're operating from a sense of out of the kindness

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Speaker 4: of their heart. But this is what they get for

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Speaker 4: their troubles, and that causes more challenges and tentions too.

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Speaker 5: You know, yes, everyone has to be aware of the

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Speaker 5: fourth waiver status. Be very cautious to let someone live

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Speaker 5: with you who's on probation or parole due to the

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Speaker 5: fourth waiver, And anybody who is on probation arm parole

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Speaker 5: for the most part there they have enough concern and

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Speaker 5: respect for their family not to move in with them.

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Speaker 5: I would rather be homeless than to subject my family

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Speaker 5: members to that. So that was the number one problem

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Speaker 5: with being housed when it came to family, because that's

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Speaker 5: what everyone says, how commute on didn't go to family? Well,

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Speaker 5: that's why I didn't go to family, Okay, so we

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Speaker 5: could get rid of that question.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And many incarcerated people do the same thing because,

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Speaker 4: like I said, you tried to keep your family ties

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Speaker 4: stay connected, but they can't, and they're trying to look

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Speaker 4: out for the families as well because most families are

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Speaker 4: not aware of it.

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Speaker 5: I wasn't aware of it as well. So yes, yes,

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Speaker 5: that's a normal. That's something on the norm right there.

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Speaker 5: They call it compliance checks, and because you have to

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Speaker 5: surrender an address to them, that it opens up that

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Speaker 5: house to compliance checks and basically the household basically becomes

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Speaker 5: a fourth waiver household without rights. Then they yell and

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Speaker 5: yell at the probation officers and the police what do

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Speaker 5: you mean? And they're yelling back at them, I need

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Speaker 5: you out here, sit down, And if you can't tell

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Speaker 5: me to sit down in my house, we'll leave that.

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Speaker 5: Know you nobody can leave, you know.

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Speaker 1: That's yeah, that's just.

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Speaker 5: I to subject anybody in their family to compliance check.

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Speaker 5: So I've seen people actually be forced to move out

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Speaker 5: over having compliance checks. And if you're like me, you're

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Speaker 5: not going to subject anybody to it from the beginning.

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Speaker 5: So I had that problem, which was number one. Otherwise

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Speaker 5: I would have moved in with with a family member.

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Speaker 5: And secondly, you know, the biggest problem too, was being

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Speaker 5: able to navigate and maneuver through through a system where

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Speaker 5: I have to get on my own to get a

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Speaker 5: job to work. I mean, that's the first thing people say,

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Speaker 5: is get a job, you know, but get a job

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Speaker 5: from where If you're homeless, it's pretty hard to go

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Speaker 5: to work from the streets. And if you haven't slept

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Speaker 5: or havn't ate, you know, it's pretty hard to show

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Speaker 5: up to work tired. They can sympathize, the empathize with

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Speaker 5: your situation, but only that goes to a certain extent.

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Speaker 4: Very much, so it's very transactional. But also to add

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Speaker 4: to the point too, is like the way the services

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Speaker 4: that are offered for unhoused people if they like, for example,

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Speaker 4: have medical issues that they need to attend to, and

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Speaker 4: then you're trying to get them to work. Give it

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Speaker 4: a good example so people can understand. Shelters have hours

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Speaker 4: of operation, right, jobs have hours of operation, and if

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Speaker 4: a supervisor and most often or not unless you have

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Speaker 4: unless you're Donald Trump could be elected for a president

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Speaker 4: what makes recently made over twenty five billion dollars. You

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Speaker 4: you are not going to be a billionaire or rich

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Speaker 4: a millionaire. You are going to be working very most

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Speaker 4: often than not, a low paying, a poorly paid job.

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Speaker 4: So this poorly paid job is you're going to be

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Speaker 4: at the mercy of the manager and the necessity if

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Speaker 4: your need. If you let's say, if you work at

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Speaker 4: routes right and they have a certain hours, and you

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Speaker 4: are unhoused, and you have to go to one of

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Speaker 4: the shelters where they do feedings where they do lunch.

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Speaker 4: And I don't know if you've been to any shelters,

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Speaker 4: and when you've been the food line, you just can't

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Speaker 4: go and grab and dash. And then if you do,

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Speaker 4: it is it's like it says first comfort serve or

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Speaker 4: the food is a poor quality, and it's just might

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Speaker 4: you know, you waited like for hours and you can't

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Speaker 4: you don't have anything, and then you're you know, ass out,

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Speaker 4: and then you got to go back to job hungry.

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Speaker 4: Then that presents another dilemma because there's food there. Then

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Speaker 4: you might you know, take another penitentiary chance and take

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Speaker 4: a food and then get fired and get charged. And

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Speaker 4: so it's a cascade events that I don't think people

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Speaker 4: are really considered some of the solutions that they had.

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Speaker 1: It's just more of than just get a job, Like

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Speaker 1: what's they're saying.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's more than just get a job because in

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Speaker 5: order to get the job, you have to secure other

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Speaker 5: things first. You know that take money to secure to

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Speaker 5: begin with, you know, like housing, like clothing, like shoes.

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Speaker 5: I remember one of my first jobs, they said, if

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Speaker 5: you come and do labor, there was a temporary labor

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Speaker 5: service that hired you immediately the same day, and you

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Speaker 5: could work at a temporary labor place. But you needed boots,

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Speaker 5: you know, to go to work at the construction site.

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Speaker 5: So I couldn't even go to work without the boots.

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Speaker 5: I have to go find boots. I remember spending two

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Speaker 5: days looking for boots, you know, because that job pays

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Speaker 5: the same day. You know, you would go to work

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Speaker 5: for these services and they would pay you the same day.

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Speaker 5: So I knew if I got paid the same day,

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Speaker 5: I could secure a room or you know, get a

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Speaker 5: room somewhere, or secure some type of housing. But now

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Speaker 5: I still even needed boots to do that. So it's

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Speaker 5: always something that proceeds, you know, the problem with the

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Speaker 5: need that proceeds the problem.

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Speaker 4: But here's also the conundrum too, is if you do

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Speaker 4: get a room in a hotel. Hotel is the quickest

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Speaker 4: money draining kind of enterprise. You can't save money to

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Speaker 4: build up to get a place because you're always depositing

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Speaker 4: money and you're caught on this endless cycle of doing

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Speaker 4: they labor. So, you know, so that's another consideration. When

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Speaker 4: people just say just get a job, or you'll just

359
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 4: do anything like you said, you know, that's very shortsighted.

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Speaker 4: And it's just not framed in reality. We'll finish this

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Speaker 4: conversation after the break and we're back. A lot of

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Speaker 4: times people saying these things is to justify their uneasiness

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Speaker 4: of how close the situation that they could be. And

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Speaker 4: like what we've recently seen with the fires here and

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Speaker 4: after all of this, everyone is on edge. But you know,

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Speaker 4: consider having these kind of parameters, all these kind of

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Speaker 4: limitations posted onto you, and then you know you're doing

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Speaker 4: the survival or you're being accused of looting your own stuff.

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Speaker 4: But we're going to get into that conversation because it

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Speaker 4: really this information campaign and it's certainly infuriating.

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Speaker 1: It's infuriating for me for two reasons.

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Speaker 4: They say this kind of thing where unhoused people and

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Speaker 4: I won't say normal circumstances because you're in house and

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Speaker 4: at normal So the thing with it is is that

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Speaker 4: you go and get your things swept, and these are

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Speaker 4: your belongings, and they give you a certain time to

377
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Speaker 4: get your belongings and move whatever you want to take,

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Speaker 4: and they need to hit a tape over it, and

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Speaker 4: if you go over that tape then you could be

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Speaker 4: arrested and be charged because you're stealing your own stuff,

381
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Speaker 4: and it's been going on for some time. But most importantly,

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Speaker 4: here's the thing with the Alta Dina fires. They are

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Speaker 4: saying with friends and families that are coming to help

384
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Speaker 4: eloading their things from these disaster homes, they're looting. They

385
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Speaker 4: frame this picture of this African American gentleman helping a

386
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Speaker 4: disabled mother to get her things, and they labeled him

387
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Speaker 4: a looter. And that message is not an accident. It's

388
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Speaker 4: deliberately sent out there. And the areas that these places are,

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Speaker 4: it's so smoke and we got the breed ash.

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Speaker 1: Nobody's running, you know, full peil mail.

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Speaker 4: Into burning or steal smoldering embers to go and steal

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Speaker 4: someone's TV or you know, food and and things unless

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Speaker 4: it's survival because people are starving, people are trying to

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Speaker 4: get things and it's burning down anyway. So you're getting

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Speaker 4: the National Guard into a predominantly black area. You got

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Speaker 4: the police out there, mad dogging people that have lost

397
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Speaker 4: everything and they're trying to extavish their things. It's just

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Speaker 4: nasty work.

399
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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it sounds like and then I've seen this before.

400
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Speaker 5: It just adds more fuel to the fire. And especially

401
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 5: when you bring in these these National Guard and the police,

402
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 5: which typically didn't have the best relationship with that community

403
00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,640
Speaker 5: to begin with, right, and then you know what, with

404
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 5: the way that they think and the way that they're

405
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 5: trained to look at a certain people, it's always gonna

406
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,920
Speaker 5: be a bigger mess. I remember that there were issues

407
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 5: here were when a guy who was killed by the police,

408
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 5: and uh, then they had the audacity to show up

409
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Speaker 5: to the funeral, you know, I mean.

410
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Speaker 1: A lot of nerves.

411
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, who wants to see you go? And they're saying, well,

412
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Speaker 5: we're showing up at the front roal because people are

413
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Speaker 5: gonna be angry and upset.

414
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Speaker 1: Of pluse, they're gonna be angry you just killed the person.

415
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Speaker 5: You know, and they may start, you know, something may happen,

416
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Speaker 5: you know, because of all the emotions and everything. So

417
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Speaker 5: now you got police at the actual funeral lined.

418
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Speaker 1: Up policing people's emotions.

419
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Speaker 4: And it's similar and reminiscent to the days of slavery

420
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 4: where they had because people don't know when it's thanks

421
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 4: to that Turner and other people that rose up against

422
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 4: the institution of slavery that we owe it. In those

423
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 4: black churches, there was always a white person that was

424
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 4: sitting in the front or front row listening to the

425
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 4: message that was being received or being spread to the

426
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 4: black congregation and which basically policing their emotions events slavery

427
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 4: or the injustices of the day or the.

428
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Speaker 1: Burden of it.

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Speaker 4: It's like that's still a continuation from that part there,

430
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 4: but also was a continuation from the remnants of slavery.

431
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 4: Is this incarcerated firefighters. People are not really talking too

432
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,479
Speaker 4: much about it, but it needs to be said. We

433
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 4: had many that's rescued people's homes and helped retrieve pets

434
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 4: and people and helped rescue them were incarcerated firefighters. We

435
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 4: didn't have We were still short staffed because we had

436
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 4: two simultaneous fires going on. But the fact of the

437
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 4: matter is they were considered the detritus of society or

438
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 4: the security risk, or people were uncomfortable with these people.

439
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 4: But these are the same people that were rescuing in

440
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 4: your property. And the conversation is that you know you

441
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 4: were speaking about against on Prop six, So can you

442
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 4: talk a little bit about that and how that links

443
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 4: into the journey up incarcerated people?

444
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 5: Yeah, actually Prop six. The reason why because Prop six

445
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 5: was to involuntary labor as a result of being convicted

446
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 5: of a crime. The reason why this was very impacting

447
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 5: for me as an African American, as a black person

448
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 5: because the blueprints of this was embedded in slavery Shane Games.

449
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 5: So this says that all of the slaves are free,

450
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 5: there's no more slavery here in the US. But there

451
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 5: was an exception that said except if someone is convicted

452
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 5: of a crime. In this instance, if a person that's

453
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 5: convicted of a crime, they can be re enslaved. They

454
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 5: can be sent back to the plantation. They can be

455
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 5: re enslaved and forced to work their way out. So

456
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 5: what happens when you are re enslaved, you work again

457
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 5: for a couple of years or so, and then they say, Okay,

458
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 5: now you've regained your freedom by working your way out

459
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 5: of it. This is involuntary servitude slavery. To have an

460
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 5: exception to slavery means you're for it. You can't have

461
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 5: an exception to anything and say that you're not for it.

462
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 5: Either you're for slavery or you're against slavery. Forget an

463
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 5: exception to it. Because these same exceptions are what led

464
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 5: to over policing the black community framing people to get

465
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 5: them back into slavery, planting things on them. So what

466
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 5: happened when they did set the slaver free and say well,

467
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 5: they can only be enslaved if they commit a crime.

468
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 5: What happen then was the police start over policing the

469
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 5: black community in order to get them re enslaved again.

470
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 5: Follow them around, wait for them to do something. Did

471
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 5: same thing goes on the day, Get behind a car,

472
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 5: drive behind them, wait for them to make a wrong turn,

473
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 5: pull them over for a license tag, and smell marijuana

474
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 5: and give you a reason to search the car. Now

475
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 5: you find something that you can convict them for and

476
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,959
Speaker 5: you use that to justify your stop. But your stop

477
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 5: was actually to reach a certain goal that you did reach,

478
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 5: but you did it in an unfair and unjust way.

479
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 5: So we wanted to abolish involuntary servitude by not forcing

480
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 5: people to work their way back because the time is

481
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 5: what you're there to serve. So if you serve the time,

482
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 5: then that's what gets you back into society, not working.

483
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:50,959
Speaker 5: And so a lot of people wanted to work to

484
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 5: pass the time, but they should have the choice to

485
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:56,479
Speaker 5: whether they want to work or not.

486
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 4: And fair income because there's another thing that it's not talking.

487
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 4: They're poorly paid because of the fact that they're in

488
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 4: desperational boredom or trying to reduce their time. You know,

489
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 4: people are going to make the choices that they have

490
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 4: available to them, and unfortunately they're not being paid well

491
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 4: about which amplified another part of slavery because even though

492
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 4: you may not do involutary servitude, but you're also being

493
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 4: held in a different type of servitude by poor economic situations,

494
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 4: which is what we've seen across the country. A lot

495
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 4: of poor people are not able to afford the rent

496
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 4: that's going up. And with another thing I want to

497
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 4: point out to you what's going on with alter dinner.

498
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 4: We have these slumlords now jacking up the rent. They

499
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 4: know people who are displaced. They're trying to scam these

500
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 4: people out of their homes. They're also trying to make

501
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 4: the rent so unattenable, so if they do get the

502
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 4: insurance check, you're going to be spending most of it

503
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 4: trying to try to stay in their place and not

504
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 4: rebuild the home that you had or are the circumstances

505
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 4: that you had, So now you're in another conundrum. One

506
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 4: of the things I wanted to detect a more of

507
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 4: a bigger mac the fine glass to draw some attention to.

508
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 4: Is the conversation that I had and I want us

509
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 4: to talk on is I had to talk with the

510
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 4: academic and one from the top. His point was from

511
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,479
Speaker 4: the sixties and seventies, the highest criminal element, the highest

512
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 4: crimes that were reported were from Black American people. And

513
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 4: I took exceptions to that because one the people that

514
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 4: were reporting it were obviously, you know, either selectively targeting

515
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 4: or completely omitting the other crimes that the whites were

516
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 4: doing to the marginalized communities. Because we have on the

517
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 4: books the Casual Killing Act, and if people don't know

518
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 4: what the Casual Killing Act is, particularly during slavery, that

519
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 4: any person like for example, the slave could be killed

520
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 4: or beaten to death or meet them horrific in and

521
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 4: they wouldn't be charged with it.

522
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: Because they're not people. There were property.

523
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 4: But the Casual Killing Act, which which was on the

524
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 4: books even during the Jim Cole era, is the same thing.

525
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 4: It's like Jim Crow was. In fact, terrorism was out

526
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 4: of hall time high with African Americans, particularly in the South,

527
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 4: which has caused the Great migration because of the terrorism.

528
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 4: They could kick in your door and reached out and

529
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 4: get your child, your husband, wife, whatever, snatched them in

530
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 4: the dark of night, and there was nothing even done

531
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 4: about it. So I think those kind of conversations without

532
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 4: those variables put in, and it's not an accident that

533
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 4: were not put in. Also, the type of crimes that

534
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 4: they were forcing. Once slavery ended, for black women to

535
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 4: who didn't want to work for white people anymore would

536
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 4: be forced back into working with them and then creating

537
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 4: another hostile situation, a cycle that they couldn't get out of.

538
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 4: But we should talk a little bit about that.

539
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 5: Absolutely. It's interesting because during the sixties and seventies, especially

540
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 5: in the community where I'm from, there was a lot

541
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 5: of unity. There was a lot less crime than anything

542
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 5: going on at the time because we were talking about

543
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 5: we were addressing civil rights, police brutality, unity organizations, and

544
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 5: community activism was at an all time high. People didn't

545
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 5: have time for crime. People were trying to survive. But

546
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 5: there were a lot of things launched against the community

547
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 5: that had to do with crime in order to criminalize

548
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 5: the community. When the carrying of firearms started after the

549
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 5: Black Panthers came out and started carrying firearms. The same

550
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 5: year that the Black Panthers started carrying firearms, it became

551
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 5: illegal for people who have been convicted of a crime

552
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 5: to have a firearm. And what happened during that time

553
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 5: they start arresting and convicting people for crimes a lot

554
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 5: more in the community in order to strip them of

555
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 5: those rights to carry firearms. You have cointael pro that

556
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 5: happened during the times in the sixties and seventies. Set

557
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 5: aside from the gun laws that started when the Black

558
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 5: Panthers started carrying fire on. So a lot of the

559
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 5: crime bills and efforts launched at the community to criminalize

560
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 5: the community came during the time that we were actually

561
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 5: unified in building in our communities and doing less crime

562
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 5: than ever before.

563
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 4: But also the two the topic of what crimes were,

564
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 4: and I bring this up because of the survival nature

565
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 4: and how poorly compensated many people of color, particularly black

566
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 4: community members were, and this community stepped in to fill

567
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 4: the gap, and so you didn't have to do survival

568
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 4: type of crimes. You could be able to survive. They

569
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 4: were church groups or they were mutual aid groups like

570
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 4: Black Panthers Breakfast program and things like that to be

571
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 4: able to head off the stigma of criminality and the

572
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 4: shame that all of that went with, to help the

573
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 4: community get stronger and to be able to help have

574
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 4: a say or destiny in their own liberation. But that's

575
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 4: where when you started to see when people were trying

576
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 4: to chip away, which again what you mentioned at these

577
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 4: kind of programs, because people were not going outside of

578
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 4: the community to do crimes because they didn't have to,

579
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 4: because they had the community helping them pick up, to

580
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 4: help do the heavy lifting to support them from not

581
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,879
Speaker 4: And so they're in this conversation where you have these

582
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 4: academics that didn't understand. I had to educate the person

583
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 4: about what the reality is with the criminality, about how

584
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 4: young black men could not stand on the corner, on

585
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 4: any corner if they see three black men, they were

586
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 4: immediately jumped out before stopping, frisk jumped out the car,

587
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 4: you know, frisked them looking for the heading, drugs or

588
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 4: you know, suspicions, robbery suspect or any kind of thing,

589
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 4: or you just basically just drummed up a charge and

590
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 4: you just got got And those things were happening in

591
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 4: urban cities as well, like Detroit, as well, and it

592
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 4: was an unspoken rule. I remember my parents would tell

593
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 4: us they'll be hanging out on this corners because it

594
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 4: wasn't necessarily because there's the various activity going on, because

595
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 4: a lot of young youth were doing singing groups, they

596
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 4: were doing rap groups and things like that. But it

597
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 4: was the fact that there's things that could jump off

598
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,399
Speaker 4: with the police to create and manufacture evidence or manufacturer

599
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 4: situation with you.

600
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 5: Absolutely. Like I say, a lot of these things you

601
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 5: see in different ways that represent the same thing. Because

602
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 5: in prison they have a rule called grouping, which means

603
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:39,839
Speaker 5: that you can't do anything with more than three people together. Yeah,

604
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 5: and I've seen that in one instance where a group

605
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 5: of black men were taking the solitary confinement for exercising

606
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 5: together in a group of five, and they charged them

607
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 5: with grouping. And so we see the same thing even

608
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 5: if it's not a charge or crime. In public, if

609
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 5: you see three black men or more together, you're gonna

610
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,919
Speaker 5: raise eyebrows and intendas are gonna go up, and you're

611
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 5: gonna look at it as more of a threat than

612
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 5: anything else.

613
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 4: What new obstacles do you see with the incarcerated community,

614
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 4: and how can our society be more understanding and help

615
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 4: rage or stop some of the stop obstacles that's going on.

616
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 5: Well, that's a great question, but it has totally to do.

617
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 5: And this is from lived experience in what I have lived,

618
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 5: because I have been in that vicious cycle of this

619
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 5: in and out cycle of going and coming through that

620
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 5: revolving door. I was one of the ones who came

621
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 5: and went, came and went, came and went, because it's

622
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 5: a vicious cycle because it's never intended for me to

623
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 5: get a grip on things to get together. It's only

624
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 5: meant to lead me back. And so now what we're

625
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 5: looking and that are things and opportunities and programs and

626
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,280
Speaker 5: things that were not offered to me that are coming

627
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 5: out now to be able to pull people off of

628
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 5: that rotation that they have that belt that assembly line,

629
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,280
Speaker 5: you know, to keep them off of that assembly line

630
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 5: from keeping those machines rolling, you know, which is the

631
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 5: prison industrial complex keeping us in. Right now, there's housing

632
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 5: and now right now we're starting to look at justice

633
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 5: impacted housing opportunities. Just like they have veterans, seniors, disabled,

634
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:45,320
Speaker 5: I'm trying to add formally incarcerated or just as impacted

635
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 5: to that group to make it a special sub population

636
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 5: that should be looked at and considered where it concerns

637
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 5: housing and different other opportunities as well.

638
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 4: Wow, that's encouraging to hear. Is there anything that you

639
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 4: would like to cover before we locked off?

640
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 5: Nothing grabs right at me immediately, But whenever there's an

641
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 5: opportunity to say anything, I feel like I have to

642
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:12,760
Speaker 5: come up with something.

643
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:17,320
Speaker 1: Is it true that you wrote a book?

644
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 5: Okay, absolutely, yes, I did. You know. I did write

645
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 5: a few books during the time that I was incarcerated,

646
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 5: and all of them until my experiences in my struggles

647
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 5: Whose Left was my last book. It was an autobiography

648
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 5: that discusses my struggles with gangs, with the prison system,

649
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:47,359
Speaker 5: with drugs, with the crack epidemic in the community. I mean,

650
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 5: I was there to witness all of these transitions in

651
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 5: my community with gangs. I witnessed the transition from gangs

652
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 5: that fought to gangs that shot guns. You know. I

653
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,720
Speaker 5: was part of a transition where there were no guns

654
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 5: at first, and then there were guns all of a sudden.

655
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 5: I was there from drugs to see a drug come

656
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 5: into my community and wipe it out, you know. So

657
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 5: there's lots of different details in my book called Who's Left.

658
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 5: And the reason why I was called Who's Left is

659
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 5: because the story starts with a lot of people, but

660
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 5: it ends with just a few left, you know, after

661
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 5: all of the struggles involving those subject matters.

662
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 4: Oh that sounds like a very interesting book. I'm gonna

663
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:42,320
Speaker 4: have to get check it out myself.

664
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 5: Yeah at the time, right now, I don't. I just

665
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 5: had it re edited. I did a forward, a different

666
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 5: introduction with a good friend of mine, a professor, doctor

667
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 5: Dennis Chiles, and so I'm re releasing it with a

668
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 5: new cut, new forward, so it'll be back out this

669
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 5: year's called Who's Left.

670
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 4: Oh wow, I would definitely been glad you guys. I

671
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 4: asked that question to give you a plug. So yeah,

672
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 4: So definitely check this book out when it comes out.

673
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: Please.

674
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 4: I also will invite you on it to talk about

675
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 4: your book as well. And I wanted to thank all

676
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 4: of our audience and people that are listening. Thank you

677
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 4: for taking the time to show up. Absolutely, we'll be

678
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 4: right back with our second guests after a quick break.

679
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 4: Welcome back. This is Theo Henderson with Weedy and Howes.

680
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 4: For those of us who are joining in, I mentioned

681
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 4: earlier about the importance of educating, liberating, and motivating. Our

682
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 4: second guest has an interview that is chalk full of

683
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 4: misinformation about a vulnerable community. I felt it was important

684
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 4: for our students to hear the message this guests brought

685
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 4: to me and the impact an academic that both speaks

686
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,919
Speaker 4: with authority has been given a larger platform to misrepresent

687
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 4: people can have. As you listen to this interview, imagine

688
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 4: being in a vulnerable community that is being misrepresented in

689
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 4: this way or simply not mentioned. Not only are you

690
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 4: tasked with the daily challenge of overcoming people's prejudices, now

691
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:31,320
Speaker 4: many of those prejudices are be validated by a prominent academic.

692
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:37,839
Speaker 4: If you feel a growing anger, frustration and discuss as

693
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 4: you listen, I want you to understand that this is

694
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 4: how the African American community feels when they have to

695
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,760
Speaker 4: engage with this. In order for my listeners to be allied,

696
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 4: they need to understand that these ideas are often spewed

697
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 4: in spaces where African Americans are not welcome. It then

698
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 4: falls to you to do something about it. It is

699
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,839
Speaker 4: essential that this topic has a space because currently we're

700
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 4: dealing with the rollback of DEI policies and the silencing

701
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:11,280
Speaker 4: of vulnerable communities. Thus, people speaking on our behalf instead

702
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 4: is important to understand. My interviewee today is Kevin Smith,

703
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,919
Speaker 4: whose publicists reached out to me see if Kevin could

704
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 4: come onto my platform and discuss this new book. There

705
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 4: will be a few times in my interview where problematic

706
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 4: statements are said. I'm using this opportunity to educate the

707
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 4: audience on these misstatements without further ado, here is our talk.

708
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,800
Speaker 1: I am excited. I'm excited for two reasons.

709
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 4: One is, our guest today is going to be talking

710
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 4: about a very serious issue, but a topic that is

711
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 4: so germane to the issues that are going on right now.

712
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 4: We were welcoming mister Kevin Smith. Mister Kevin Smith has

713
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 4: written a book, and I'm going to let him introduce it,

714
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 4: and then I'm going to take the conversation from the

715
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 4: innocuous into the very heavy. So without fervor, dude, mister Smith.

716
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 6: Well, the book is called The Jailer's Reckoning and addresses

717
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 6: two primary questions. One, why did we lock so many

718
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,720
Speaker 6: people up? This is sort of like an unprecedented social

719
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 6: experiment that's been going on for the last forty years

720
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,439
Speaker 6: in the United States. And two what is it done

721
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 6: to us? What has it done to us socially, economically,

722
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 6: and politically?

723
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 4: Can I add one third question to it? Two, particularly

724
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 4: in Los Angeles, we've been having brush fires and wildfires,

725
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 4: and many people don't know the people that are rescuing

726
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,839
Speaker 4: you are incarcerated people. Here in Los Angeles. They are

727
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 4: even using incarcerated people to put out the fires, the

728
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 4: one that people consider dangerous or minace to society. But

729
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,839
Speaker 4: they're the ones that are saving lives. And what does

730
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 4: that make in the larger scheme of it? And it's

731
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 4: why I feel your book is so timely in this moment,

732
00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 4: but please continue.

733
00:43:58,560 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 5: Yeah.

734
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 6: Actually, and I'm glad he brought that up because one

735
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:03,800
Speaker 6: of the things that I talk about in the book

736
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 6: are inmates who fight fires in California, especially southern California

737
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,439
Speaker 6: where those fires are going on right now. And those

738
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 6: inmates fight fires for don't quote me on the exact amount,

739
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 6: but I think the last time I checked, it was

740
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,479
Speaker 6: something like two dollars and forty two cents a day

741
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 6: that they were fighting fires for. And that's not an

742
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 6: easy job. I mean, you know, one of the inmates

743
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 6: that I talk about and the book actually died doing this.

744
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 6: It's a it's a pretty dangerous job. And the irony

745
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 6: in all of this is that some of those inmates

746
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 6: kind of pick up a taste for the work. I mean,

747
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:44,359
Speaker 6: it's a hard, brutally physical job, but I think there's

748
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 6: a level of satisfaction that comes from fighting fires and

749
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 6: saving people's lives and saving people's property. And you know,

750
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 6: inmates are trained to do this, some of them pick up,

751
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 6: you know, a taste and a real satisfaction for the

752
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 6: job and wanted to pursue it as a care and

753
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 6: then they get out of prison, and then they have

754
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 6: a hard time finding a job is a firefighter, even

755
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 6: in places to need fires fighting, because they're convicted felons,

756
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 6: and that creates all sorts of barriers to get haired

757
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 6: even in areas where job skills are critically needed.

758
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 4: Which also is an oxymoron because we're about to elect

759
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 4: a thirty four convicted felon to be president of the

760
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,359
Speaker 4: United States, But yet we can have someone that has

761
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 4: a record to be able to fight and survive and

762
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 4: save people's lives in this community, Like what is going on?

763
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 4: We're still dealing with forest fires and brush fires as

764
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,760
Speaker 4: well in several areas at the same time, which caused

765
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 4: a major conflagration of problems as well as really a

766
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 4: lot of short staff and understaff kind of people as well.

767
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 6: So yeah, absolutely, and you know, I think it's more

768
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 6: than ironic the incoming president of the United States is

769
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 6: a convicted felon, although that this kind of underline one

770
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 6: of the points that I make in the book is

771
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 6: that we've been looking at people at such a high

772
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 6: rate for so long that having a prison record or

773
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 6: being a convicted felon is just not that unusual anymore.

774
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:18,279
Speaker 6: We've essentially socially normalized it to the point where, you know,

775
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 6: being a convicted felon isn't a barrier to becoming president

776
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 6: of the United States.

777
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 4: But yeah, is a barrier to poor people, people of

778
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 4: color that are usually fighting these fires in these areas,

779
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 4: where in a normalized society or normalized setting, they would

780
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,919
Speaker 4: be called upon to not be able to enter those

781
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 4: areas or be part in some kind of way has

782
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 4: looked on as a criminal. But these criminals are saving

783
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 4: the lives of many people's properties, businesses, and basically lives,

784
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 4: and it's rescuing as well. There's been I've seen a

785
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 4: video of a and acarcerated person rescuing people, and so

786
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 4: it's it's very what I don't know the really a

787
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:03,919
Speaker 4: word is, but maybe it's hypocritical. It's really I don't

788
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 4: know the correct metaphor to put for this in this moment.

789
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 6: Well, I'm not sure that I know the correct metaphor either,

790
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 6: but the point is well taken, which is essentially that

791
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 6: there's felons in those felons, right that if you are

792
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 6: a convicted felon, but you happen to be wealthy and prominent,

793
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 6: that probably has much less of an impact on your

794
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 6: life than if you are from sort of like the

795
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 6: lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum, and especially if you're

796
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 6: from a racial or ethnic minority, the effect on your

797
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 6: life of having a felony conviction and serving a prison

798
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:40,359
Speaker 6: term in those circumstances can be pretty devastating.

799
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 4: Indeed, So what was the inspiration, if this is such

800
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,879
Speaker 4: a word for you to write this book? What got

801
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 4: caught your eye on this this topic?

802
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 6: Well, this has been sort of like an itch I

803
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 6: couldn't scratch for a long time in terms of a

804
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 6: research project before I became an academic. I was a

805
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 6: journalist and I kind of like cut my teeth covering

806
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 6: the crack epidemic in nineteen eighty six and in a city,

807
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 6: Kansas City, and I also spend quite a bit of

808
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 6: time sort of like an East Saint Louis and also

809
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,359
Speaker 6: up sort of like in some of the less salubrious

810
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 6: parts of Milwaukee as a journalist, and you know, one

811
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 6: of the things that always sort of like caught my

812
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:27,839
Speaker 6: eye there was a fairly devastating impact on those communities

813
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 6: in terms of you know, what might be called something

814
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,359
Speaker 6: of a revolving door between the criminal justice system and

815
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 6: members of the community, especially young males. I mean, this

816
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 6: is where the burden falls primarily on And that just

817
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:47,240
Speaker 6: got me interested in what this was doing to those communities.

818
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:50,959
Speaker 6: And that's a subject that I picked up as an academic,

819
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 6: and it's a subject that you know, I published a

820
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 6: couple of academic studies on it, and it's something that

821
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 6: I always wanted to come back to. And so for

822
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,799
Speaker 6: the past, oh my gosh, quite a few years, I've

823
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 6: been sort of like doing research on this project and

824
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 6: an effort to sort of like really try to come

825
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 6: up with some comprehensive answers to those questions of why

826
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:15,279
Speaker 6: we've done what we've done and what it's done to us.

827
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 4: Well, what answers do you have you come up with

828
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 4: about this phenomenon, because this is not an accident. In

829
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 4: my own research that I've done about it, this is

830
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 4: not an accident. I do believe we all know about

831
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 4: the deliberate infestation of drugs and hart press communities like

832
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:37,359
Speaker 4: the black and Latino communities, and the disproportionate level of

833
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:41,439
Speaker 4: arrest when they're talking about cocaine, and then we're talking

834
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 4: about crack and the three strikes law and all of

835
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 4: that that that entails. So what answers do you have

836
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 4: on this subject?

837
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think it is a phenomenon that resists sort

838
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 6: of like an easy answer in the sense of, like,

839
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 6: you know, this one variable is responsible for what we've done.

840
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 6: I I think it was a combination of things. You know,

841
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 6: crime was raising pretty heavily in the sixties and the seventies,

842
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 6: and there was, you know, a pretty strong reaction to

843
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:13,919
Speaker 6: that in the nineteen eighties, and some of that got

844
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 6: tied up in the War on Drugs. But I think

845
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 6: a lot of it had to do with politics.

846
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 4: I was going to say something too, because I noticed

847
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 4: when that conversation usually is gone and coming from the

848
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:28,760
Speaker 4: lens of a black American. Crime is was always going on,

849
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,759
Speaker 4: but it was unchecked when it was the white race

850
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 4: against terrorizing people of color and blacks, and it wasn't

851
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 4: notated as well. But then the survival crimes that was

852
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 4: going on with people of color like white, black and

853
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 4: other communities, then it started to be looked on with

854
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 4: the microscope, and I think sometimes it just missed. That

855
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 4: extinguishing point is usually missed. That's that's just my perception.

856
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 6: And I mean I think I sort of like agree

857
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 6: slash disagree with you, you know, on the point that

858
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 6: I would disagree is that objectively, crime rates, especially violent

859
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 6: crime rates, were climbing pretty rapidly throughout late nineteen sixties

860
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,879
Speaker 6: and nineteen seventies. I mean, just objectively, there was more

861
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 6: violent crime going on. In terms of the sort of

862
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 6: like hardening of public opinion and the political reaction to this,

863
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,719
Speaker 6: I think you have to squint really hard not to

864
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:27,320
Speaker 6: see a racial element to what went on in terms

865
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:31,840
Speaker 6: of the reaction to it and what drove the United

866
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:36,839
Speaker 6: States to become the largest jailer in the world. I mean,

867
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 6: anyway you cut it. If you look at the numbers,

868
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 6: mass and caceration is a phenomenon that is born primarily

869
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:48,400
Speaker 6: by a single demographic group, and that's African American males,

870
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:53,879
Speaker 6: especially young African American males. In terms of the total population,

871
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 6: we're talking about maybe six or seven percent just African

872
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 6: American males, and it's roughly thirty of the people sitting

873
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:06,239
Speaker 6: behind bars. And I think you have to, you know,

874
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,799
Speaker 6: take a pretty big leap of faith to sort of

875
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:13,399
Speaker 6: like say that there's no racial dimension to this.

876
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 1: Man.

877
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:17,439
Speaker 4: I stop right here too, because I do think there's

878
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 4: something that we also overlook and omit was the lynchings

879
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 4: that was going on, and that was not always accurately reported,

880
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 4: and many times it was underreported, which is a crime,

881
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 4: but actually was susceptible type of kind of crime that

882
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 4: went on, particularly in the South as well as in

883
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:36,439
Speaker 4: some areas in the North. Like I say, I think

884
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:40,839
Speaker 4: the hypervigilance on e stress or depressed group was one

885
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 4: of the other focuses. As you and I both agree on,

886
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 4: is the fact that they wanted to hyper focus on

887
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 4: a particular group. And then if you look in other

888
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 4: conversational points, the major issues with killing what serial killers

889
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 4: are mostly white males. But that's what was but my

890
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 4: contention when I was observing some things.

891
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 1: But I digress.

892
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 6: Please continue, Yeah, And I mean these are difficult conversations,

893
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 6: right because I mean, you know, I've had these conversations

894
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:14,279
Speaker 6: with a number of people on both you know, the

895
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 6: left side of the ideological spectrum and the right side

896
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 6: of the ideological spectrum, and you know, you get pushed

897
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 6: back from both sides because you know, people view the

898
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 6: world they want to see the way they want to

899
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 6: see it, and sometimes the data just doesn't bring that

900
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:29,839
Speaker 6: out so.

901
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 4: Or it's not available to examine as well, because like

902
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:36,439
Speaker 4: I said, we have to contend with the fact that

903
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 4: we are living in a well, like I said, in

904
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 4: a white supremacist society. And as long as the hunter

905
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,240
Speaker 4: is the victor, he's going to always tell the story

906
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 4: as the winner. And it's no matter how much evidence

907
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 4: could be up to the contrary. Like I said, you know,

908
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:54,439
Speaker 4: there was a lot of underreported crimes that were going

909
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:57,720
Speaker 4: on against people of color, and because they couldn't report

910
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 4: those same crimes and could not be brought to jail

911
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 4: as easily because of a lot of the oppression and

912
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 4: Jim Crow and those things. And I think we would

913
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:09,239
Speaker 4: be remiss into not acknowledging that is a part of

914
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 4: two why that there was reactionary crime as well. But

915
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 4: that's again we look at the world how we have

916
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 4: our own lenses, and some of the things bear out.

917
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 6: But that you're correct, Yeah, I mean like it I

918
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 6: was to take sort of like a more I guess,

919
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 6: right leaning perspective on this, I guess how I'd push

920
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 6: back on that is if you look at differential crime

921
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:36,399
Speaker 6: rates between different demographic groups, and African American males tend

922
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 6: to commit crimes at a higher rate than other demographic groups.

923
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:42,879
Speaker 6: But you know, one of the things that I talk

924
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 6: about in the book is one of the explanations for

925
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 6: that that the people don't really sort of like give

926
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:51,879
Speaker 6: enough credence to is age. You know, if you look

927
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 6: at age differences between say, whites and blacks, there's a

928
00:54:55,680 --> 00:55:01,280
Speaker 6: fairly big difference, and crime is overwhelmingly irrespected of race.

929
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 6: It is overwhelmingly a product of young men, especially violent crime.

930
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 6: There's a sociologist at the Universe of Chicago whose name

931
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:14,279
Speaker 6: I'm embarrassed to say escapes me now, but has this

932
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:19,359
Speaker 6: great quote that the universal recipe for crime is young

933
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 6: men standing on a street corner with nothing to do,

934
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 6: and there's no racial dimension there. I mean, that is

935
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 6: just young men tend to commit crime, and if they

936
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,399
Speaker 6: don't have purpose in their life, they're more likely they're

937
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:34,760
Speaker 6: more likely to commit crime.

938
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:35,799
Speaker 5: In other words, you.

939
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:37,840
Speaker 6: Look at some of those differences in crime rates and

940
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 6: I really don't think they've got anything to do with race.

941
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 6: They have to do with things like age, and I

942
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 6: don't think people really think some of these things through.

943
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 6: You know, as we were talking about a little bit earlier.

944
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:51,320
Speaker 6: I think sometimes people see the world they want to

945
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 6: see it, and if some contradictory data creeps into their worldview,

946
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 6: they look for a reason to dismiss it. And you

947
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:01,799
Speaker 6: know where I come down on the book is that

948
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 6: this is not just a sensitive issue. It's kind of

949
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 6: like a complicated issue too, And I think the explanation

950
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 6: for the causes and certainly for any solutions is a

951
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 6: little bit more complicated and nuanced than a lot of

952
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 6: people want to accept.

953
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 4: Well, it's interesting because I'm from Chicago, and I do know,

954
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:25,279
Speaker 4: for example, from my experience living in the press side

955
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 4: of South Side Chicago, where there was constant segregation, constant

956
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 4: repression of jobs. But there is also something that is

957
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:37,360
Speaker 4: never again many researchers overlooked that it was against the

958
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 4: law for black people to be two or three people

959
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 4: standing on the corner and if they see them on

960
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:46,320
Speaker 4: the corner, cops jumped out arrested them. And this is

961
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:49,319
Speaker 4: before the heyday of stop and frisk, and it is

962
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,360
Speaker 4: a known thing that I dare say if it was

963
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:56,239
Speaker 4: the same conversation with a group of white males standing there,

964
00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 4: maybe waiting for the bus and things, it was not

965
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:02,799
Speaker 4: heavily enforced. So that also colors the perception that there

966
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 4: is a leaning toward blacks where young people are potentially

967
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 4: trying to lay waste or do some crime against it.

968
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:14,560
Speaker 4: And I think that's where I'm at loggerheads with the

969
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 4: kind of notion, because I think there is maybe again

970
00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 4: the viewpoint, and it's very difficult to see that because

971
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 4: we look at the world how we shape it.

972
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 1: We can only look at it and realize it in so.

973
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 4: Many respects by sometimes our experiences, but also we also

974
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 4: in the academia have take a critical eye and understanding

975
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 4: our own biases and be able to look at some

976
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 4: of the things that we don't look at over we overlook,

977
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 4: or we don't even contemplate, and honestly because most people

978
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 4: don't know that.

979
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, and your point is well taken, and I mean

980
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 6: just to sort of like put us on some ground

981
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 6: where I think we can agree a little more. And

982
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 6: this is something that I also talk about in the book.

983
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 6: Look at the states that have the highest incarceration rates,

984
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 6: they tend to be so northern states, old confederacy states,

985
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 6: and it's really hard to look at that data and

986
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:11,479
Speaker 6: not come away with the sense that there's I guess

987
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 6: the polite way to put it is that there's a

988
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 6: certain path dependence there.

989
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 5: You know.

990
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 6: One of the things that I talk about is to Talqueville,

991
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:24,920
Speaker 6: the guy who's famous for writing about democracy in America.

992
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:32,000
Speaker 6: He visited prisons on behalf of the French government in

993
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 6: the nineteenth century, and he was touring around prisons and

994
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 6: he was really interested in sort of like what Quata

995
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:41,520
Speaker 6: reformers were doing in Pennsylvania. But once he got to

996
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:45,160
Speaker 6: southern states, he kind of threw up his hands because

997
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 6: he said, you know, this is you know, essentially what

998
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 6: he was arguing is that the criminal justice system was

999
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 6: being used, in no small part to help enforce a

1000
00:58:56,360 --> 00:59:01,800
Speaker 6: pretty brutal regime of racial apartheid. And you know, I mean,

1001
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 6: I think you can certainly debate to what extent that

1002
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 6: is still the case in contemporary times, but I think

1003
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 6: it's really hard to argue that that has no effect

1004
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:15,840
Speaker 6: on what's going on today. I Mean, there's a pretty

1005
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:19,680
Speaker 6: deep history history there. But one of the points that

1006
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 6: I'm really trying to push home in the book is

1007
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:25,800
Speaker 6: that there's a lot of what you see and a

1008
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 6: lot of the issues that we've been discussing so far,

1009
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:34,040
Speaker 6: it varies from state to state. And you know, some

1010
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:38,479
Speaker 6: states have very high incarceration rates, they have very high

1011
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 6: disparities between different racial and ethnic groups, and some states

1012
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:49,440
Speaker 6: have lower incarceration rates and lower disparities, and you know,

1013
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:53,440
Speaker 6: and that raises a really interesting question of about you know,

1014
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 6: why is that. And to speak directly to one of

1015
00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:58,840
Speaker 6: the points that you were making is, at least in

1016
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 6: the data that I looked at, one of the things

1017
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:05,240
Speaker 6: that is associated with low incarceration rates is less racial diversity.

1018
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:10,120
Speaker 6: You know, states the effectively states that the wider lllcquel

1019
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:11,720
Speaker 6: tend to incarcerate less.

1020
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 1: That's an excellent point.

1021
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 4: And I was just thinking too when Charles Dickens threw

1022
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 4: up his hands when he was visited the South, which

1023
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 4: I learned recently about when he was the Tale of

1024
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 4: Two Cities. He was basically trying to make an opinion

1025
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 4: piece about what he saw going on as he traveled

1026
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:30,840
Speaker 4: through the South, and his publisher who pooled that idea,

1027
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:33,040
Speaker 4: and so he had to come up with, you know,

1028
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:36,520
Speaker 4: the Christmas Carol those other kind of stories, which also

1029
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 4: to drive for over. The point too, is that there

1030
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 4: was people trying to elucidate on these kind of disparities

1031
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 4: even back then, but it's like it was not always

1032
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:50,240
Speaker 4: going to be socially acceptable. It's easier to keep a

1033
01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:55,240
Speaker 4: prescriptive kind of narrative and then jump into justifying, you know,

1034
01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:58,480
Speaker 4: or using more penitives, like for example, the issues with

1035
01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:01,720
Speaker 4: the unhouse community. Now they have utilized the unhoused people

1036
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:05,800
Speaker 4: are mentally ill on substances and criminals, and from that

1037
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:09,160
Speaker 4: launch pad they spring forward to create things like forty

1038
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 4: one to eighteen most recently Grants past ruling, which makes

1039
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:16,360
Speaker 4: it easier to criminalize. If you can dehumanize a human being,

1040
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 4: then you can criminalize. I've always said that, and I

1041
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:23,240
Speaker 4: believe these kinds of disparities are the ingredients that has

1042
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 4: make this bitter stew that's going on in this right now,

1043
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:34,480
Speaker 4: in this time, I hope our listeners use the principles

1044
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:40,880
Speaker 4: of educate, liberate, and motivate to discern and dismantle what Kevin.

1045
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 1: Tried to elucidate.

1046
01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:45,600
Speaker 4: I will say again it is important to not only

1047
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:48,840
Speaker 4: know what our opposition is saying about the communities. We

1048
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:52,200
Speaker 4: must understand the harm inflicted to be sure, but it

1049
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 4: is also our responsibility to take up the mantle of

1050
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:59,440
Speaker 4: educating as many as possible of the accuracy to dismantle

1051
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 4: the errors and misinformation espoused. Thank you for joining another

1052
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 4: episode of Wiedian Howse. It is my hope we meet

1053
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:11,400
Speaker 4: again in the light of understanding. If you have a

1054
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:13,320
Speaker 4: story to share on the air, please reach out to

1055
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:16,080
Speaker 4: me at Widian House dot Gmail dot com of Whidian

1056
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:22,400
Speaker 4: House on Instagram. But that thanks again for listening. Whedian

1057
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:26,680
Speaker 4: Howes is a production of iHeartRadio. It is written, posted,

1058
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:32,080
Speaker 4: and created by me Theo Henderson, our producers Jbie Loftus,

1059
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:38,080
Speaker 4: Kailey Fager, Katie Fischal, and Lyra Smith, Our editor is

1060
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:41,959
Speaker 4: Adam Wand and our loco art is also by Katieficial.

1061
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:43,320
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.