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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the best of Coast to Coast podcast.

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Speaker 1: now by heading over to Coast to Coast a m

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Speaker 1: dot com at signing up for Coast Insider. Now, here's

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Speaker 1: a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeart Radio

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Speaker 1: and welcome back to Coast to Coast. George Ri with

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Speaker 1: you with our special guest, Anneie Nwitz and her latest book.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about the novels called Autonomous. We'll get into

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Speaker 1: that in a second as well. Annalie. Why are some

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Speaker 1: people scared of artificial intelligence? I mean they think it's

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Speaker 1: going to take over the world, it's going to kill us,

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Speaker 1: it's going to do all kinds of things. Why they're

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Speaker 1: afraid of it? I think part of it is watching

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Speaker 1: too much science fiction. Um, we've all seen in Terminator,

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Speaker 1: or many of us have seen the Terminator movies. And

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Speaker 1: there's sky Net, which is the evil computer that UM

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Speaker 1: you know, decides to declare nuclear war on on all

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Speaker 1: of humanity and destroys the planet. And I think that

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Speaker 1: stories like that are incredibly popular because we fear the

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Speaker 1: unknown quite simply, you know, when we when we think

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Speaker 1: about a new form of life, a form of life

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Speaker 1: that could one day be our equal intellectually or are

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Speaker 1: equal culturally, UM, it's very scary, and so it's easy

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Speaker 1: to imagine it being UM some kind of cruel overlord. UM.

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Speaker 1: You know, we've seen over and over in human history

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Speaker 1: when different groups of people meet, one group often tries

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Speaker 1: to UM oppress the other one and often succeeds. And

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Speaker 1: so you know, we have a lot of UM, really

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Speaker 1: negative ideas and negative moments in our history where we've

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Speaker 1: you know, we've met the unknown and it's been terrible.

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Speaker 1: But I also say that it's because people don't really

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Speaker 1: understand what artificial intelligence is and how it works, and

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Speaker 1: how very vulnerable artificial intelligence will be UM, and how

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Speaker 1: it won't in fact be UM you know, stronger than us,

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Speaker 1: but in fact might be UM weaker than us in

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Speaker 1: many ways, UM, and and easily exploited by us and

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Speaker 1: kind of UM and oppressed by by humans. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you're scared of it, don't you just have to

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Speaker 1: unplug it? I think there's I mean, that's a very

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Speaker 1: good point, UM. But of course, a lot of the

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Speaker 1: work on artificial intelligence is looking at UM, you know,

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Speaker 1: having it be something that you wouldn't be able to

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Speaker 1: unplug because it would be part of the internet. UM,

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Speaker 1: it would be something that you would interact with the

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Speaker 1: same way that you interact with like with Gmail, for example,

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Speaker 1: while it's in the cloud. So you wouldn't as an

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Speaker 1: individual necessarily be able to just shut it down. So

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Speaker 1: it would be something that would be owned by a company,

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Speaker 1: perhaps might be owned by a nation or a government,

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Speaker 1: and so there is a fear that, you know, we

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to shut it down. It would be

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Speaker 1: out of our control UM or you know. The fear

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Speaker 1: also is of course that it would just take over

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Speaker 1: the Internet, and so then it would it would not

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Speaker 1: allow us to shut it down. But I think that again,

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Speaker 1: I think that this comes from people not really thinking

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Speaker 1: about what we were discussing before the break about how

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Speaker 1: UM artificial intelligence as we know it is actually not

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Speaker 1: very intelligent. UM. It's not uh, you know, taking over

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Speaker 1: the world. It's trying to sell us socks that we

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Speaker 1: already bought, UM and trying to serve up ads um

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Speaker 1: that we don't need. And so I think that you know,

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Speaker 1: we're very very very far away UM. You know, at

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Speaker 1: least uh, you know, a century away from anything like UM.

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Speaker 1: You know, an intelligence that would be like a human

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Speaker 1: where we could you know, have a conversation with it

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Speaker 1: and it would have UM, you know, values and ethics

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Speaker 1: and care about other people and things like that, which

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Speaker 1: are all kind of signs of consciousness according to scientists.

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Speaker 1: Is there anything, anneally that scares you about AI? I

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Speaker 1: think what scares me is that a I will emerge

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Speaker 1: in a way that we don't expect and we won't

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Speaker 1: realize it, and we will actually be in some ways

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Speaker 1: abusing it and torturing it. And one of the things

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Speaker 1: that was very interesting for me doing research and talking

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Speaker 1: to people who are working in software but also people

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Speaker 1: who are ethicists who are trying to think about, you know,

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Speaker 1: the philosophical quandary of of artificial intelligence was, you know,

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Speaker 1: it came up again and again that people would say, well, look,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's very possible that a company like Google

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Speaker 1: or a company like Facebook will inadvertently create consciousness. You know,

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Speaker 1: they'll be working with algorithms they already are using a

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Speaker 1: great deal of machine learning UM, and maybe one of

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Speaker 1: those algorithms will actually become conscious that no one will

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Speaker 1: figure it out because it won't be able to communicate

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Speaker 1: the same way a human would. A human would say hello,

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Speaker 1: crossing my head, um. But in an AI might not

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Speaker 1: be able to communicate in human language. It might not

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Speaker 1: be able to explain why it was painful for it

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Speaker 1: to keep crunching numbers over and over again, or to

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Speaker 1: keep combing through tons of data um, in a in

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Speaker 1: a situation that was uncomfortable for it, and so it

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Speaker 1: might be silently suffering um. You know, much the way

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Speaker 1: an animal might suffer if you were overworking a horse,

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Speaker 1: or if you were treating a dog really badly. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, it might be very It might be a while,

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Speaker 1: but for people realized that this animal was in pain.

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Speaker 1: And so to me, that's the scariest thing is that

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Speaker 1: we might invent life, not acknowledge that it was life,

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Speaker 1: and then find out ten years later that we've been

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Speaker 1: just you know that that actually every Google search was

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Speaker 1: kind of pinching or punching this poor algorithm UM that

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Speaker 1: really wanted to be doing something else. UM. And so

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Speaker 1: and that's actually not it sounds trivial, but um, it's

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Speaker 1: actually a very realistic scenario that um, you know, life,

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Speaker 1: artificial life would kind of emerge um, you know, by

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Speaker 1: evolving out of existing algorithms. UM. The other thing about

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Speaker 1: artificial life that's interesting is that it's probably not going

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Speaker 1: to be one thing. That when we finally do get

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Speaker 1: something like human equivalent artificial intelligence, that there will be many,

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Speaker 1: many different kinds and that they'll have very different ways

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Speaker 1: of thinking and very different views of the world. So

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Speaker 1: the kind of artificial intelligence that might be inside of

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Speaker 1: an autonomous car would be very different from the kind

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Speaker 1: of artificial intelligence that does you know, trading on the

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Speaker 1: stock market. Um. And so we're going to get this

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Speaker 1: crazy ecosystem of all these different kinds of minds um,

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Speaker 1: kind of the way we have now, you know, humans

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Speaker 1: all have very very different kinds of minds. UM. And

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Speaker 1: we have a very you know, no no people, no

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Speaker 1: two people think alike. UM. And so that's what's kind

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Speaker 1: of that's exciting to me. But the sad part is that,

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Speaker 1: like I said, we might be abusing these minds without

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Speaker 1: realizing it. How far can artificial intelligence take us and go?

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Speaker 1: I mean, what are the limitations are there? Any? I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of limitations because just like human brains, UM,

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Speaker 1: you know, artificial intelligence has to live somewhere, right. It

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Speaker 1: isn't just sort of floating in space. UM. It has

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Speaker 1: to have some shoters to run on UM. It has

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Speaker 1: to have some kind of substrate. Uh. So you know

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Speaker 1: there's the limits of UM, you know, energy consumption, UM,

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Speaker 1: the limits of the kind of UM hardware that it

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Speaker 1: can run on. So you know that's going to prevent

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Speaker 1: you know, hardware limitations are very real UM. And that

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Speaker 1: can you know, really limit UM the power of any

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Speaker 1: piece of software. UM. The other thing is like, there's

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Speaker 1: the limits that that we impose on it as ethical beings. Right,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's certain things that we can do and

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Speaker 1: that we can invent UM that we choose not to

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Speaker 1: because they would be horrific and destructive or cool and terrible. UM.

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Speaker 1: So I think that the limits on AI are going

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Speaker 1: to be a combination of you know, the technology that

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Speaker 1: we have UM and also the law and um and

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Speaker 1: morality and what we you know, what we choose to

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Speaker 1: do with it. UM. I also think that it's very

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Speaker 1: possible and again many many scientists would agree that that

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Speaker 1: AI may wind up being something that the combination of

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Speaker 1: human and machine. So either will upload our brains into

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Speaker 1: computers and kind of become a or will incorporate computers

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Speaker 1: into our bodies, will essentially upgrade our brains with technology,

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Speaker 1: and so before you know it, you know, humans and

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Speaker 1: computers might be much more alike than you might guess. Um,

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Speaker 1: they might basically merge into each other. Law enforcement law

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Speaker 1: enforcement et only nowadays is using robotics that don't look

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Speaker 1: like people, but they're they're robots to do things like

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Speaker 1: blow up suitcases, bombs, checking things like that. That's amazing

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Speaker 1: technology and that saves lives. It does save lives, and

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Speaker 1: it's um. You know a lot of first responders are

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Speaker 1: experimenting with using robots and drone to look for people

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Speaker 1: who are in disaster areas. UM. I just saw a

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Speaker 1: fantastic video from a group at m I T that

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Speaker 1: created a snake bought which was designed to crawl. It's

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Speaker 1: it's not actually a snake, um, it's actually a long

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Speaker 1: piece of very very flexible tubing with a camera on

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Speaker 1: the end of it, with a camera on the end

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Speaker 1: of it exactly, and they can use it if people

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Speaker 1: are buried in rubble to you know, weave in between

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Speaker 1: the rocks and check to make sure anyone And I

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Speaker 1: bet it's got a little led light on it or

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Speaker 1: something that's right. Yeah, you probably saw the same video. UM.

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Speaker 1: You can. You can google that and find it and

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Speaker 1: it's amazing. And there's a lot of stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of UM devices that are explicitly to

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Speaker 1: help people UM. And then there's even weirder things like

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Speaker 1: UM what got dubbed several years ago the robo rat,

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Speaker 1: which was is um a rat that has a brain

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Speaker 1: implant and it allows researchers to steer the rat. They

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Speaker 1: send impulses to the rats whiskers actually and get the

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Speaker 1: rat to turn right or left based on stimulating the

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Speaker 1: part of its brain that it's responsible for its whiskers

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Speaker 1: and UM. And so they can use these rats to

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Speaker 1: go into places where people might be in danger, or

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Speaker 1: into areas where there might be a bomb, kind of

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Speaker 1: steer the rat around UM and get it to retrieve

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Speaker 1: things or find things. So that's the sort of cyborg future.

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of hoping more for the robot snake model,

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Speaker 1: where there's no no ras brains are being harmed in

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Speaker 1: the making of this robot. But um, but I think

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Speaker 1: both things are possible. Now here's a bizarre question with robotics.

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Speaker 1: And then I want you to tell us about the

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Speaker 1: title autonomous. How you picked it? As we lead into this,

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Speaker 1: there's there are companies springing up that are making robots

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Speaker 1: for companionship. Uh, it is unbelievable. They are They put

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Speaker 1: on the web that they are sold out. They can't

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Speaker 1: make these things fast enough. What's happening here? Why? Why?

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Speaker 1: Why are people falling in a romantic way for these machines?

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Speaker 1: I don't get it. Well, I mean there's a simple

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Speaker 1: answer to that, which is that, I mean, humans have

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Speaker 1: a capacity to feel affection and love for a lot

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Speaker 1: of crazy things. You know, people love their cars, little

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Speaker 1: kids love their stuffed animals, and we all love our animals. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we love our cats, even though they poop on our beds.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of things that we love. Well,

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Speaker 1: you're not support to put the kiddie litter box on

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Speaker 1: the bed put it in a corner. UM. So uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think that there is that, and I

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Speaker 1: think that's a very lovely thing about humans that we

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Speaker 1: can ext and love to lots of things. But also, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, scientists have been working for a long time

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Speaker 1: on using robots not just as love companions, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: which is a whole area to itself, but also um

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Speaker 1: as uh guardians for children, UM, as companions for the elderly. UM.

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Speaker 1: There's a whole set of robots that are designed to

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Speaker 1: be used in hospitals for people who are incapacitated. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And they can have a very soft, cuddly robot that

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Speaker 1: will be um fun to hold and fun to interact with.

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Speaker 1: But also we'll do things like monitor heart rate and

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Speaker 1: monitor wakefulness and make sure that the person is healthy. UM.

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Speaker 1: And if the person falls over or if there's some

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Speaker 1: um you know problem with their breathing, that robot can

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Speaker 1: then send you know, a signal to first responders so

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Speaker 1: they can come and help, or two doctors in the hospital.

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Speaker 1: So we long have this dream that robots will be

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Speaker 1: kind and attentive caretakers. Right. That's not kind of controversial, um.

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Speaker 1: And so it seems to me that it makes sense that,

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Speaker 1: you know, if robots can be you know, taking care

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Speaker 1: of us in that way, taking care of us like

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Speaker 1: nurses or teachers might take care Um, then you know,

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Speaker 1: people are naturally going to think, well, maybe they can

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Speaker 1: take care of my other needs to. It's weird though,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's really really strange. But I think it's

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Speaker 1: going to get bigger and bigger and bigger. It's an industry,

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Speaker 1: uh that is going to be overwhelming. I mean, here's

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Speaker 1: an example. I had a guest on talking about the

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Speaker 1: things going on in China a couple of days ago.

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Speaker 1: He's he's an expert in demographics, and he says that

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Speaker 1: there are millions, millions of guys in China who will

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Speaker 1: not be able to find a spouse a girlfriend because

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Speaker 1: of the number of difference these guys who are all

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Speaker 1: candidates for buying these robots. Well, and of course a

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Speaker 1: lot of people already, um, you know, have bots online,

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Speaker 1: you know, software bots, not actual robots that have you know,

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Speaker 1: physical bodies, um that they interact with all the time. Um,

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Speaker 1: And sometimes they don't even realize that those bots aren't people.

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Speaker 1: You know, they think that they're just a person, that

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Speaker 1: they're talking to So I think you know, when you're

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Speaker 1: lonely and you want companionship, um, you know it's healthy

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Speaker 1: to want to reach out to another being. Um. And

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Speaker 1: so it makes sense that people are going to turn

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Speaker 1: to robots and bots which can strange infinitely. They can

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Speaker 1: be infinitely patient and kind. It'll be a cheap date,

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Speaker 1: that's for sure. You don't have to buy dinner. Depends, right,

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Speaker 1: What would be better if you were a company then

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Speaker 1: to like design a robot that would then ask its

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Speaker 1: human companion, like to buy an expensive diamond or expensive

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Speaker 1: yeahthing right, that's right. That's the next thing is your

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Speaker 1: sex spot is going to have like Sam and say like,

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Speaker 1: don't you want to buy me brand new shoes? Buy

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Speaker 1: me a Chanel purse? Exactly. That's weird. Listen to more

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Speaker 1: Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at one am Eastern

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Speaker 1: and go to Coast to Coast am dot com for

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