1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. I was a 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: in Europe, Russia, and in Asia. 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 2: And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East 5 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive 6 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 2: our adversaries. 7 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy 8 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: theories large and small. 9 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 2: Could they be true? Or are we being manipulated? 10 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: This is mission implausible. 11 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 2: So I'd like to welcome Robert Kerno. She's an award 12 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 2: winning journalist, broadcaster, author, and is a charity ambassador for dyslexia, 13 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 2: something that touches on a lot of families, including Robin's 14 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,480 Speaker 2: and my own. Robin is now an American, but she's 15 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 2: also a global citizen who can say that she's from Australia, 16 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 2: South Africa, Britain and the US. So you were a 17 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 2: CNN journalist and anchor for over twenty years and had 18 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 2: a ring sight seated at almost every defining event over 19 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 2: the last twenty years, and you now have a great 20 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 2: podcast I want to plug Searching for America, where you 21 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 2: explain or try to explain America to the rest of 22 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 2: the world. So if you ever find America, please let 23 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 2: us know. I will. 24 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 3: I think it is one of those odyssees that where 25 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 3: the journey is more important than the destination. 26 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 2: So it seems like everything with three letters these days 27 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 2: is viewed with distrust, right, you know, the focus of 28 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 2: popular conspiracy theories, the FBI, the CIA, and the MSM. 29 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 2: Mainstream media something that you were a representative of and 30 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 2: still are. And so it's one of me. If you 31 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 2: wonder if you could start to take us down the 32 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 2: rabbit hole of why there is now so much distrust 33 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 2: of mainstream media. And that's a plural, not a singular, right, 34 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 2: that's a wide spectrum. 35 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 3: I don't think there's an easy answer, and I think 36 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 3: if we had the answer, perhaps the media wouldn't be 37 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 3: in the pickle it is in right now. But certainly, 38 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 3: when I was ends Africa correspondent, which I was for 39 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 3: a long time, and I was traveling, more often than 40 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 3: not people would say to me, oh, so you're from 41 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 3: the CIA, and I'd go, no, it's CNN. I'm from CNN, 42 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 3: and then they go yeah. But sometimes it would be 43 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 3: interchangeable for some people, And I don't know you guys 44 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 3: obviously didn't announce yourself when you walked into places. But 45 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 3: I'm sure the sort of sense that the media and 46 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 3: spies or intelligence was sharing the same space wasn't a 47 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 3: big leap for people, And I think particularly in those days. 48 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 3: Now this is ten years ago, and this is outside America. 49 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 3: I think in those days it wasn't a big leap 50 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 3: because for a lot of particularly African nations, with public 51 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 3: broad broadcasters and the way societies were set up, that 52 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 3: actually there was an intersection between journalism and spying, and 53 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 3: that journalists sometimes had to report back to the government, 54 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 3: or sometimes journalism was used as a front for a 55 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 3: ficial a kind of spying operations. You know, that wasn't 56 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 3: a far leap. So I think I've always had to 57 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 3: deny that I was there for the wrong reasons, and 58 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 3: the way I dealt with it was just to be 59 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 3: pretty open about the way I was asking questions and everything, 60 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 3: and use humor, which I'm sure you guys would use 61 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 3: a lot as well. The way it is now that 62 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 3: the entire institution of sort of media is seen as 63 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 3: some sort of suspicious puppet of some dark, nefarious, sort 64 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 3: of secret organization, and that we are being being played 65 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 3: and all playing the public. It's terrifying and it is worrying, 66 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 3: and I don't know how it got so bad so quickly. Yes, 67 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 3: social media. Yes, leaders using the sort of the opportunity 68 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 3: to do this in order to get themselves credit. There's that, 69 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 3: And I think there've also been a few owned goals 70 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 3: by mainstream media that perhaps as the debate got more 71 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 3: and more fractured and fragmented, we did all pull into 72 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 3: different corners. And so what you see now, even from 73 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 3: ten years ago when I moved to America, you do 74 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 3: see more of a defined CNN is taking a position, 75 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 3: or Fox taking a position, or MSNBC taking another position. 76 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 3: And I think that sort of perhaps in trying to 77 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 3: protect ourselves, we might have just played into some stereotypes 78 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 3: and that hasn't been helpful and it'd been given some 79 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 3: of the critics an easy win. 80 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: If you looked at a heat map, I think in 81 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 1: the United States of the media where it was on 82 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: the political spectrum of where people thought it was. The 83 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: term that's thrown at you mainstream media is mostly thrown 84 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: from the right because they believe the media is as 85 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 1: a leftist bias. But now when I see these sort 86 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 1: of heat maps of what people are watching, listening to, 87 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: and where they're getting their information. It is largely frankly 88 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: right wing stuff. I think the places that we consider 89 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: more left wing media seem much smaller and being able 90 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: to reach far fewer people, Like how did that happen? 91 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: Like if you had even asked me a few years ago, 92 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: I'd said, well, you know, on the spectrum media overall 93 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: maybe is a little bit more liberal than conservative. But 94 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: now that's actually not true. I don't think a right No, I. 95 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 3: Think you're right. And I used the words fractured and 96 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 3: fragmented for a very good reason. Somebody also talked about 97 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 3: broadcasting and the way I you know, I'm an old traditionalist. 98 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 3: I mean I started off in the analog world, and 99 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 3: I still believe in that sort of traditional, almost moral 100 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:34,359 Speaker 3: imperative of the journalist. Whereas the broadcasting, which tended to 101 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 3: see a program or on CNN International what I used 102 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 3: to do, would tend to be quite of a wide 103 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 3: you'd be kind of throwing a few stories at the 104 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 3: dartboard in one thirty minute bulletin. Whereas I think what 105 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 3: you're talking about now is this fragmentation to this narrow 106 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 3: casting where you're seeing these tiny little it's not even 107 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 3: just echo chambers, it's echo chambers with an echo chambers 108 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 3: with an echo chambers. It's this network of honeycomb of 109 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 3: the these tiny, little fragmented pieces of media. And that's 110 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 3: where I think the ecosystem for the right, which is 111 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 3: the podcast which you talked about so much during the 112 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 3: run up to this sort of recent US election, particularly 113 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 3: the kind of bro podcasts which just seem to have 114 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 3: so much more clout. Why are those so much more 115 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 3: powerful now and why are they getting so much audience? 116 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 3: And I think that's also the question, you know, is 117 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 3: it a conspiracy? No, I think it's because people are 118 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 3: looking for something else. They don't trust the bias as 119 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 3: they see it, the liberal bias of the mainstream media. 120 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 3: But I don't think there's an easy answer to this, 121 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 3: and this is why I'm puffing and puffing when I'm 122 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 3: saying this, and I think it's probably also probably why 123 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 3: you're asking these questions. And I don't think the bosses 124 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 3: in New York have the answer, because if they did, 125 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 3: they also wouldn't be trying. They would have fixed the 126 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 3: viewership problem at CNN. They would have fixed the viewership 127 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 3: problem at MSNBC, at New York Times. I mean, look 128 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 3: at Washington Post. Nobody reads it really, I know I do. 129 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 3: They're losing audience and they're not gaining new audience. And 130 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 3: if there was an answer to this question, then we 131 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 3: would have the solution. And I think we're in this 132 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 3: incredible space of transition technologically clearly, you know where you 133 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 3: can call it the Third Industrial Revolution. You can talk 134 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 3: about reformations or whatever. But the sort of media, the 135 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 3: ugliness and the messiness of where we are in the 136 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 3: media right now, it's like a stew It's a mess. 137 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 3: We're not quite sure where it's going to all land up. 138 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 3: So I'm sorry, I'm not even answering your question because 139 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 3: I don't have an answer. And there's a reason I'm 140 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 3: not working in the media anymore, because it did become 141 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 3: quite toxic. 142 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 2: There are conspiracies in the mainstream media, and I'll name 143 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 2: you too, okay. One is Fox News got hit for 144 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 2: seven hundred and eighty million dollars for reporting things that 145 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 2: they knew not to be true, and we're basically feeding 146 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,239 Speaker 2: their audience something that they knew not to be true. 147 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 2: And there's an other case coming with smart manic. And 148 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 2: the second one is miss you've mentioned sinister forces behind 149 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 2: one American news network is owned up to fifty percent, 150 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 2: it's not clear by the Altani family, the Royal family 151 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 2: and Cutter. So you've got a foreign influence. It's not 152 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 2: a democracy that has must have some influence on these. 153 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 2: And yet this is not the New York Times or 154 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 2: the Washington Post, which are fact based and yes they've 155 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 2: made mistakes, but they cop to those mistakes and they 156 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 2: say we got this wrong, and they'll retract things. And 157 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 2: so I my sense is that there are conspiracies within 158 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 2: the media, but it's not the places where that generally 159 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 2: are getting blamed for it. I don't think there's some 160 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 2: cunning plan behind the Washington Post, right or maybe Jeff 161 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 2: Bezos now, but yeah, no. 162 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 3: But I think when I talk about self inflicted, because 163 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 3: I mean trying to figure out, how do you get 164 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 3: to this point where nobody trusts you, even if you've 165 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 3: been doing the same thing the same way, same fact 166 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,719 Speaker 3: checking at CNN, even doubly so you know, in the 167 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 3: last ten years, same and even more passionate dedication to 168 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 3: actually saying to giving fact based news visually representing stuff 169 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 3: that's happening. This is what's happening. 170 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 2: You see it, we all watch it. 171 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,439 Speaker 3: We saw it happen. So then how does it get 172 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 3: to the point that we are still not trusted, or 173 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 3: that my colleagues are not trusted. My husband still works there. 174 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 3: He runs all of CNN's operations in war zones, so 175 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 3: he was running CNN's operations in Israel and then Ukraine beforehand, 176 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:40,559 Speaker 3: and sometimes people would come to me and say, well, 177 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 3: just tell us, really what's happening, And I'm like, turn 178 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 3: on the television. It's not like we my husband and 179 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 3: I know something that's not making it onto air. There's 180 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 3: not another story that we're hiding. And you can have 181 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 3: a few glasses of wine and we'll tell you the 182 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 3: real story when you come to our house. But what's 183 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 3: going on air is something different. And the word always 184 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 3: comes around, particularly if you grew up in a place 185 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 3: like South Africa, that's the word that you used to 186 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 3: describe sinister groups of whoever. And that surprises me still 187 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 3: as if to say, you know, really what's going on, 188 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,599 Speaker 3: and it's got worse and worse, and the self inflicted 189 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 3: stuff is it because we took ourselves too seriously, that 190 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 3: we lost the sense of storytelling perhaps and joy and fun. 191 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 3: Sometimes news would be kind of a little bit more 192 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 3: less produced. 193 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: Might it be more simple that the most powerful man 194 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 1: in the world has been consistently, over and over saying 195 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: that you're the enemy of the people, and the person 196 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: who's the richest man in the world, who owns one 197 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 1: of the biggest Twitter and acts, the biggest places for media, 198 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: is saying the same thing. I mean, if you're pumping 199 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: out to people over and over that the media can't 200 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: be trusted, people are going to start to believe it. 201 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 3: And that's absolutely that's an excellent point. That's the basis 202 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:52,559 Speaker 3: from which we're starting. 203 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 2: That makes excellent points rarely, but when he does, and 204 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 2: I mean I saw that. 205 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: Even a squirrel finds a blind that's an excellent point. 206 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 3: Sorry, And that's and that's the basis. Yet, but then 207 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 3: why is this also being replicated in some parts of 208 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 3: the world where Trump is not president or is not 209 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 3: constantly on air. This sort of distrust of officialdom is 210 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 3: something I think that is, you know, whether it's the 211 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 3: whether it's intelligence or agencies, or whether it's government, or 212 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 3: whether it's bureaucracies, or whether it's media. There's something about 213 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,439 Speaker 3: the distrust that we've seen, probably fueled maybe solely by 214 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 3: Donald Trump, but then while people still not believing in 215 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 3: sort of basic truths, and I don't have the answer 216 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 3: for that. 217 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 2: It's the end of the interview. You're gone, you're done. 218 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 3: You can't make up anything. You've spent a life telling stories, 219 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 3: and you're not going to give us some BS explanation. 220 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: Well, we have the we have the answer, but we'd 221 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: rather not put it out. 222 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 3: When we've stopped recording. You can tell me why, the 223 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 3: real truth. You can tell me what you really think. 224 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 2: So let's take a break. We'll be back in a moment. 225 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: Well, let me ask. So your podcast is excellent, and 226 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 1: you're trying to explain America to the world, and you 227 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: obviously have a long career and international news, and you 228 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: have a background a lot of different places. As you 229 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: do that, and you get feedback from people, what are 230 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: the biggest questions or concerns or misunderstandings about what's happening 231 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: in America? What is it you're trying to address. 232 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 3: Coming I live in the South. I'm sitting here in 233 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:40,959 Speaker 3: Atlanta talking to you. So we're in the Deep South. 234 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 3: And we're in a conservative neighborhood or liberal neighborhood, and 235 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 3: one of my children plays sport. So we've driven a 236 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 3: lot around Georgia into sort of those rural areas of 237 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 3: Georgia that are Marjorie Taylor Green Territory and even further in. 238 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 3: And I've sat on the sports fields next to very 239 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 3: vociferous Maga Trump supporters, people who are very Christian and 240 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 3: fulfill that stereotype of red neck ignorant and as Hillary 241 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 3: Clinton would have said, deplorable. You know who are the 242 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,839 Speaker 3: people that voted for Trump? Well, it's these rednecks out 243 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 3: here in Georgia. And you can kind of if you're 244 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 3: not careful. And I think this was one of the mistakes, 245 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 3: when I say South self inflected. One of the mistakes 246 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 3: a lot of the media made, particularly with the run 247 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 3: up to the first Trump election, was not listening to 248 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 3: the anxieties coming from that chunk of America, the middle 249 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 3: America or the lower middle class America, the white men, 250 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 3: the non college educated people. It was sort of dismissed 251 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 3: as sort of red neck deplorables who were being taken out, 252 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,199 Speaker 3: who were being fooled by this rich gold tapped a 253 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,479 Speaker 3: multi billionaire who was really just a really just bankruptost 254 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,319 Speaker 3: the time. But when I sat next to them on 255 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 3: the sports field and you're in the middle of nowhere, 256 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 3: and they're good people, their sons, their dads, their wives, 257 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 3: their sons and daughters. They're the first people in a 258 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 3: pouring rainstorm that would pull over and help you change 259 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 3: a car tire. And so that's the disconnect that I'm 260 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 3: trying to find, because I think if I do what 261 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 3: I was doing when I was at CNN, which was 262 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 3: trying to have this sort of high brow analysis with 263 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 3: Washington folks or whatever. And yes, I have a master's 264 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 3: degree from Cambridge and international relations. I can talk foreign 265 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 3: policy for hours, But does that really help me to 266 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 3: understand the instincts and the patterns and the anxieties and 267 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 3: the hopes that American voters are really feeling. And that's 268 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 3: what I'm trying to do, And I think being an 269 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 3: outsider helps. So I kind of try to listen to 270 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 3: them with compassion, and I've found that fascinating, where you 271 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 3: walk into a place and you're like, I'm not going 272 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 3: to try and judge them. I might not vote for them. 273 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 3: I maybe don't believe in the same things, but I'm 274 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 3: not going to other them, and particularly coming politically is 275 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 3: a white South African. I understand that very clear political, 276 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 3: very easy way of othering somebody and maybe you fearful 277 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,479 Speaker 3: of somebody else. And I think a lot of American 278 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 3: leaders Trump in particular, but then towards the end also 279 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 3: a lot of very left progressive Americans have made the 280 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 3: same mistake and have othered, do you know what I mean? 281 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 3: So I think that the sort of So that's the 282 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 3: very long version of what I'm trying to do, so 283 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 3: to try and look past why don't they believe in vaccines? 284 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 3: I sat next to the field and I'm like, what's 285 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 3: with the anti vaxin shit going on here? 286 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 4: Now? 287 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 3: But I that's when I realized, oh, RFK has got 288 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 3: a real chance, do you know what I mean? It's interesting, 289 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 3: I'm curious, and so I think a lot of people 290 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 3: and as you know, a lot of conspiracy theories are 291 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 3: bred from a fear of the unknown, and if you 292 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 3: play into that, whether on the left or the right, 293 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 3: you can create fear and anxiety which then gets amplified 294 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 3: unfortunately by news because it's good for ratings, and it 295 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 3: creates this as I remember, John, I think you called 296 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 3: it this angertainment industry, and that's unfortunately where maybe again 297 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 3: one of these self inflicted aspects of mainstream media, which 298 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 3: is really I hate the term, but is that the 299 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 3: more we catered towards ratings, the more we amplified our 300 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 3: own part in the division. And people have just got 301 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 3: sick and tired of it, or they just like, I 302 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 3: don't want to be scared and angry, or you're making 303 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 3: me too scared. You're making me too angry today and 304 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 3: there's a weird little calibration that goes on in people's brains, 305 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 3: and yeah, that's where I am. 306 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 2: So Robin is a South African, Australian, brit Americans. 307 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 3: Exactly with Southern Children. 308 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 2: Southern Children is America. Are Americans uniquely vulnerable to a 309 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 2: conspiratorial mindset. And let me set this by saying, we've 310 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 2: all lived in other parts of the world, and I've 311 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 2: lived in Southern Africa. It's still one of my favorite 312 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 2: places in the whole world. But aside from the Middle East, 313 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 2: Southern Africa was completely full of wild conspiracy theories. And 314 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 2: I remember foolishly thinking in the US, we don't at 315 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,360 Speaker 2: least have that we don't believe in, like secret military 316 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 2: bases or witchcraft, or you know, because we have modern 317 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 2: medicine we believe in. So you've lived around the world 318 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 2: as well, and are we any different than anybody else 319 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 2: now or were we? 320 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 3: You know what an interests me. I actually stole one 321 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 3: of your guests, Drew McCoy, because I'm fascinated by the 322 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 3: American religiosity, and I think a lot of the conspiratorial 323 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 3: stuff is amplified by the way Americans view the spiritual 324 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 3: or the supernatural, and there's I don't know if it 325 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 3: goes back to the Pilgrims. I don't know if it's 326 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 3: in your DNA. I don't know what it is about Americans. 327 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 3: But the Jesus stuff, the personification of Jesus as somebody 328 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 3: who is walking with you, goes fishing with you, drinks 329 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 3: a beer with you. Jesus is right there. That kind 330 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 3: of personification of Jesus is very American. And it's not 331 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 3: just evangelical, and it's not just Trumpian either. There's something 332 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 3: baked in and obviously I'm in the South here, so 333 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 3: I see it within my daily life, and so it's 334 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 3: not just a Catholicism. I'm a very lapsed Catholic, but 335 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 3: that sort of high Church stuff that I grew up with, 336 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 3: where you talk about God as some sort of supernatural 337 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 3: being and Heaven is something that is esoteric here in America. 338 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 3: People believe you will go to Hell, and that plays 339 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 3: into the politics in a way that I've not seen 340 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 3: in any other nation. I think that if you talk 341 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 3: about conspiracy theories, a lot of conspiracy theories here talk 342 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 3: about the devil or the demon or Satan or you know, 343 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 3: even with you know, even when Trump was shot, there 344 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 3: was this meme going around and with the sort of 345 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 3: a Jesus who looked like a white bearded Jesus sort 346 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 3: of saving him as if he was his own personal, 347 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 3: you know, secret service agent, sort of deflecting the bullet. 348 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 3: And I found that interesting because I think if you 349 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 3: believe that Hell and Heaven exists literally, and that Adam 350 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 3: and Eve is a literal story, then I think it's 351 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 3: a quicker leap to saying there's child trafficking and a 352 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 3: pizza parlor in Washington, or all these CIA agents want babies, 353 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 3: And so I think the American conspiracy stuff is somehow 354 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 3: wrapped up in a very particular version of America's Americans 355 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 3: idea of Hell and Earth and Jesus and the devil. 356 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 1: That's take a break. 357 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 4: A friend of mine when I was in Africa, and 358 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 4: I don't want to be sued by the wrong African country, 359 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 4: but I think it was Equatorial Guinea. In World War Two, 360 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 4: an aircraft crashed in Equatorial Guinea and it had all 361 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 4: these British soldiers on this, like thirty British dead. And 362 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 4: Britain doesn't have an embassy in Equatorial Guinea, in Malabo 363 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 4: and whatever the capital is, and so the American said, well, 364 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 4: we will tend the war graves. So every couple of 365 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 4: months the American embassy would send out and the ambassador 366 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 4: and the deputy ambassador, the DCM would go out and 367 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 4: they would tend to the war graves. And the number 368 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 4: two in the embassy was kicked out of the country 369 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 4: and accused of political witchcraft. It was like he got PNG, 370 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,640 Speaker 4: And I thought that could never happen in the United States. 371 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 4: And now I hear Marjorie Taylor Green talking about demonic 372 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 4: forces are behind the Democrats and Jesus is protecting one 373 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 4: particular thing, and I think, note, we're not actually too 374 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 4: much equatorial Guinea. 375 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: We got to start using Jesus as a weapon, like 376 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: we ought to just pretend that we're like that. No, no, no, no, 377 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: you're wrong. I thought to Jesus and he said. 378 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 2: I think Jesus was Cia Sours. Yeah, I have a 379 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,239 Speaker 2: specific question for you, so something I'm fascinated about it, 380 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 2: and I'm not sure you can talk about it. But 381 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 2: Anderson Cooper on CNN loved the guy. 382 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 3: He was at the farm, yes, no, no, no. 383 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 2: I wasn't going there. But he actually interviewed and talked 384 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 2: to someone who believed in the Q ANDN theory who 385 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 2: told him that he was going to go like they 386 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 2: were going to send him to prison. And I'm not 387 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 2: quite sure what there was this q Andon conspiracy theory. 388 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 2: And do you have anything more on this? What when 389 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 2: you confront a wacky conspiracy theory like head on like that? 390 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 2: How did that go? 391 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: I have not. 392 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 3: I'm assuming he did the interview very well and probably 393 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 3: didn't believe a word that he said. But what is 394 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 3: interesting about Q and on and I was going to 395 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 3: and it refers to the South African stuff, is that 396 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 3: I think many people believe that Q is South African 397 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 3: right got a guy, and they got a guy who's 398 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 3: apparently a guy and who's whatever. But that doesn't surprise 399 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 3: me because South Africans, as you know, whether white or black, 400 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,959 Speaker 3: have this extraordinary ability to believe all sorts of things 401 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 3: that still kind of amazes me and infuriates me on 402 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 3: many levels. So yes, being in America, I sometimes hear 403 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 3: some of the stuff and I'm like, you can't make 404 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,199 Speaker 3: this stuff up. But then I think back to some 405 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 3: of the stories I had to cover when I was 406 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 3: in Africa, and You're like, yeah, no, there's been it's 407 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,719 Speaker 3: been crazier. That's why I can never quite put my 408 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 3: finger on what it is that makes somebody, often highly 409 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 3: intelligent people, sometimes in your own family, believe stuff that 410 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:51,719 Speaker 3: you think, yeah, no nah. But also the presidents, and 411 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 3: I think the use of conspiracy theories in Africa by 412 00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 3: African leaders can be quite Trumpian or I think that 413 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 3: sense of referencing forces out to get you, nefarious secret 414 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 3: people who are trying to bring you down and stop 415 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 3: you is a very African leader kind of way of 416 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 3: dealing with power and keeping it and making sure that 417 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 3: you are you keep people around you in check as well. 418 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 3: Adam about you. Jerry used to all this over and 419 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 3: over again, probably and mcgarbi was pretty good at it. 420 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 3: Jacob Zumer constantly was bringing up threats. Even the current 421 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 3: set of leaders in South Africa are constantly saying they're 422 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 3: about to be poisoned or they were nearly poisoned. And 423 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 3: I think that sort of sense of a leader constantly 424 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 3: under attack is a very easy way out and it's 425 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 3: very effective. 426 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 2: Zuma said he took a shower so he couldn't get AIDS, right, Yes. 427 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 3: And that's another one that I When stuff is happening 428 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 3: in a country that you can't control, particularly as a leader, 429 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 3: you then have to also blame some nefarious force. And 430 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 3: with when I was there, Tarbon Berkey the president, there 431 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 3: was the ade epidemic in those sort of early two 432 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 3: thousands of people were dying a day, and Tarboon Berkey 433 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 3: as a sort of intellectual. He thought of himself as 434 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 3: an intellectual. He had a university education, so in many 435 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 3: ways it wasn't coming from a place of sort of ignorance. 436 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 3: And he did his own research and he came up 437 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 3: with the concept that HIV did not cause AIDS, and 438 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 3: then his cabinet around him started also being kind of 439 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 3: fueling into that, and it became a yes man cabinet, 440 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 3: Yes women, there were quite a few of them too, 441 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 3: and so it became this sort of AIDS denialism. But 442 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,199 Speaker 3: right from the top that was sort of had a 443 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 3: veneer of intellectualism around it, and you know, it was like, 444 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 3: we have to question, we have to question everything. We 445 00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 3: also don't want the imperilous American Western pharmaceutic companies to 446 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 3: take advantage of US Africans. Therefore, this is also an 447 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,919 Speaker 3: exercise in US standing up for our rights. So it 448 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 3: was shrouded this whole conversation about what caused HIV AIDS, 449 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 3: and hundreds of thousands died because of the denihalism around 450 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 3: HIV and the slow roll out of antiretroviral drugs, but 451 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 3: that played down. So the sort of the questioning of 452 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 3: basic facts in order to support the leader's inability to 453 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 3: control this massive death rate then played into all sorts 454 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 3: of other conspiracy theories, which one of them was if 455 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 3: you have sex with a virgin, you'll be cured of AIDS. 456 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 3: And so South Africa has this incredibly high child rape 457 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 3: rate and at first nobody could understand what was going 458 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 3: on until it became evident that there was this rumor 459 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 3: that HIV you could be cleaned you could be cleansed 460 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 3: by somebody who was fresh. I suppose thirty forty percent 461 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,439 Speaker 3: of people believe that. But you know, how do you 462 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 3: fight that and how do you then try and convince 463 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 3: people that this isn't the truth when from the top 464 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 3: it's been said, you've got a question that that you've 465 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 3: got to look at alternative therapies was the line from 466 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,959 Speaker 3: from the top for many people who were ignorant about 467 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 3: basic medical facts that then became justified. But what was 468 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 3: so interesting about the sort of sleep with a virgin 469 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 3: is that that trope actually started in sixteenth century England 470 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 3: and it's a you know, it's an old Victorian trope 471 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 3: about when people got syphilis, and it probably goes back 472 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 3: also to sort these ideas of these Christian martyrs who 473 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 3: would be would would be cleansing to a society because 474 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,159 Speaker 3: they would they would remove a society's access to the 475 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 3: demons or devil or Satan or whatever. So the whole 476 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,439 Speaker 3: concept of that, you know, rape of virginary to be 477 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 3: cleared of it goes back to some sort of Western idea. 478 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 3: So I think a lot of these conspiracy theories, these 479 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 3: tropes of power or of explanation that are behind the 480 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,479 Speaker 3: conspiration theories often quite similar in overlapping. You know, if 481 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 3: it's not the aliens who are controlling us, maybe it's 482 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 3: the Jews. You know, that's an old one, And so 483 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 3: I think there's often an overlap and often culturally surprisingly 484 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 3: close in ways that you wouldn't think. 485 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,959 Speaker 5: We'll be back next week with more of our conversation 486 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 5: with Robin Kerno. Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, 487 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 5: Jerry O'Shea, John Ceipher, and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer 488 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 5: is Rachel Harner. Mission Implausible it's a production of honorable 489 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 5: mention and abominable pictures for iHeart Podcasts.