Speaker 1: Native Lameing Pot is a production of iHeart Radio and
Speaker 1: partnership with Reason Choice Media.
Speaker 2: Welcome Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, welcome.
Speaker 1: Welcome home. Y'all. This is episode eighty one, count them
Speaker 1: eighty one of Native Lame Pie, where we give you
Speaker 1: our breakdown of all things politics and culture. Yo yo
Speaker 1: yo yo, yeah, hey hey, hey, hey, hey hey hey.
Speaker 1: Somebody in the building, somebody on the field is y'all.
Speaker 1: They're making fun of me because I always interrupt. I
Speaker 1: get excited when they say, wal come home. I'll be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: Let us just get through the aral and right. I
Speaker 3: get to see it on our face.
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 3: Sorry.
Speaker 1: We are your hosts. They've introduced themselves already, Angela Rye,
Speaker 1: Tiffany Kraus, and a man. You yell them what's going on?
Speaker 5: Ladies?
Speaker 3: Hi guys, where.
Speaker 1: Y'all at what you're doing?
Speaker 3: I'm in New York?
Speaker 5: There.
Speaker 3: My handle isn't her wall of flowers?
Speaker 1: And yep, she is on the wall looking good girl. No,
Speaker 1: I mean you're off the wall. You're off the wallflower. Yes,
Speaker 1: you cut that, you cut that, Pick that up, Pick
Speaker 1: that up. Before we get into things, y'all, because we
Speaker 1: crazy it's a good day. We want to remind you
Speaker 1: that if you like this show. In fact, if you
Speaker 1: love this show or like it, we asked that you please,
Speaker 1: please please please go leave a comment, great review and
Speaker 1: tell your best friends and your friends friends. I'm sure
Speaker 1: I did that wrong, Angela, you got a correction for me.
Speaker 6: I listen. I don't know what you do it, but
Speaker 6: let's keep great.
Speaker 3: I know we're basically just telling people spread the love.
Speaker 7: If you like to subscribe, like, tell a friend, tell
Speaker 7: your mom and them, tell your cousin and them.
Speaker 1: There it is, there, it is there it is. And
Speaker 1: tell me what's on your mind today.
Speaker 3: Okay, I got something on my mind.
Speaker 1: Please.
Speaker 7: I really appreciate that our viewers are very vested in
Speaker 7: this show and have strong opinions, and so we got
Speaker 7: some great viewer feedback. I saw one of the questions
Speaker 7: as I was traveling in So I'm eager to continue
Speaker 7: the conversation about what we're doing right now, what solutions
Speaker 7: are should we be out, you know, in advocacy and
Speaker 7: solidarity with other communities of color. People had a lot
Speaker 7: of strong opinions about it, and so yeah, I'm eager
Speaker 7: to get to some of the thoughts that folks had.
Speaker 1: And because you're so eager, friend, we actually going to
Speaker 1: start with the question I.
Speaker 3: Think, well, Angela might have had something.
Speaker 1: We're not there now, I said, We're going to start,
Speaker 1: okay with the question I think got you excited this morning? Yeah, Angela,
Speaker 1: what do you have today?
Speaker 6: Well?
Speaker 8: Uh, you know, there's a lot to be said about democracy,
Speaker 8: So I want to talk about that. We've been doing
Speaker 8: this tour, stay to the people Power tour. Jane Nelson
Speaker 8: said on a panel recently that I moderated in uh Selma.
Speaker 8: She talked about democracy being people power and so as
Speaker 8: we watch people power crumble, what is our reasonable service?
Speaker 6: And what the hell happened? Why is it crumbling?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, did we ever have it? A good question? All
Speaker 1: of that to be litigated in today's show, Not quite litigated,
Speaker 1: but definitely debated. In today's litigated and debated, no hesitated.
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the fall of democracy, if
Speaker 1: we ever had that thing? And if you agree that
Speaker 1: democracy has fallen at least what we were promised of democracy,
Speaker 1: what do you think the contributing factors are what helped
Speaker 1: to get us to this point? And then we can
Speaker 1: get beyond this point, hopefully after we start to name
Speaker 1: what the factors are that have gotten us so deeply
Speaker 1: in this thing. So let's get it started, all let's
Speaker 1: get it started, all right? If I could have this wrong,
Speaker 1: but I think this might be the question that we
Speaker 1: were referring to just a few moments ago.
Speaker 4: Oh so what I'm neighboring is two thirty am and mimbistendency,
Speaker 4: fin the grade to go to work, and a still plant.
Speaker 4: And I'm telling y'all, y'all missing a lot of perspective
Speaker 4: for when Tiffany do not run to no rural South.
Speaker 4: I don't know what you're on, but it's nothing down here.
Speaker 4: I don't know what type of utopia you're thinking of building,
Speaker 4: but most people down here are working seventy to eighty
Speaker 4: hours a week to barely straight by and feed themselves.
Speaker 5: So there is no utopia.
Speaker 4: Y'all gotta bothal up and start advising black people to
Speaker 4: care about themselves and their finances. The only thing that
Speaker 4: will get us through this recession that's probably gonna turn
Speaker 4: into a depression and the devaluation of this American dollar
Speaker 4: is work.
Speaker 5: Gotta go to work, and it's not in the streets.
Speaker 5: It's not protesting.
Speaker 4: That's any type of job that you can hold, any
Speaker 4: type of hours that you can get, any type of
Speaker 4: finances you can bring in for yourself, your family.
Speaker 5: That's what you focus on.
Speaker 4: All this other stuff immigrants, immigration, foreign politics.
Speaker 5: It don't matter for black people. I don't know what, y'all.
Speaker 5: I'll steal stuff on that, but I was going to work.
Speaker 4: I just hope y'all get out of the community and
Speaker 4: see that black people.
Speaker 5: There's a reason your conference look the way they do.
Speaker 5: Right now.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I had it right after the relation forget all
Speaker 4: this youth folks and our money in our capital.
Speaker 5: Let's it peace, m all right.
Speaker 3: So I have to yes, I actually love the question.
Speaker 3: He said.
Speaker 6: I'm welcome home for real.
Speaker 1: He said in the morning, y'all.
Speaker 7: Yeah, we're gonna say, like, honestly, shout out to him,
Speaker 7: because you know, working that third shift at at two
Speaker 7: thirty in the morning is a lot. But I one,
Speaker 7: I just want to thank everybody for weighing in with
Speaker 7: their thoughts and comments across YouTube, Instagram, and I can
Speaker 7: definitely a special shout out to the people who actually
Speaker 7: watched the show and not just the clips and you
Speaker 7: know had a full comprehensive understanding of what we were saying,
Speaker 7: and still disagreed, still passionately disagreed with my perspective. And
Speaker 7: I think it is a very small person who cannot
Speaker 7: engage in intellectual debate, who will become so offended by
Speaker 7: another take that you can't take it. So I actually
Speaker 7: enjoyed reading the comments. I responded to a few, As
Speaker 7: you all saw, I asked questions of people, especially people
Speaker 7: were like, I'm done, you know, and I was curious, like, well,
Speaker 7: what is being done look like to you? So I
Speaker 7: just wanted to clarify and and a few mistakes that
Speaker 7: I made. One a lot of people were saying, please
Speaker 7: cite your sources from where are you getting these numbers,
Speaker 7: which is very fair and normally I always try to
Speaker 7: do that, and my apologies for not doing that, But
Speaker 7: just so you all know, I am never doing a
Speaker 7: thirty second Google search while we're on the air and
Speaker 7: presenting that to you as facts. These are things that
Speaker 7: I have read about research, crosstabs, talk to people, talk
Speaker 7: to experts. Really dug into it out of respect for
Speaker 7: having this platform and out of respect for the people
Speaker 7: who tune in every week. And so I went to
Speaker 7: the community pages AAPI vote, the Arab League of Voters,
Speaker 7: I may have that wrong, the Latino vote Undo, us
Speaker 7: AP vote cast, talk to social scientists, and just something
Speaker 7: I want to caution people on those numbers is exit
Speaker 7: polling is notoriously unreliable. And so that's why you have
Speaker 7: to have multiple sources when you're looking at who voted
Speaker 7: and how they voted, because that often changes. And so
Speaker 7: when this data was coming out among a lot of
Speaker 7: the curious folks, we were all looking at it and
Speaker 7: side chatting and talking about it. So thank you guys
Speaker 7: for asking for being curious enough to know.
Speaker 3: Well, where did you get these numbers?
Speaker 7: The utopia that he's referencing, I want to let him
Speaker 7: know I'm not talking about my imagination. I'm talking about
Speaker 7: what I've seen, what I've experienced, what I've gone to
Speaker 7: bear witness to, and out of respect for those communities
Speaker 7: because of our bloody, violent history with whiteness in this country.
Speaker 7: I don't want to name them or say exactly where
Speaker 7: there are where they are, but there are numerous communities
Speaker 7: across the Bible Belt of the South that are building
Speaker 7: community that exists. They work, you know, and they're black
Speaker 7: towns with black mayors, black city council, black gowned grocery stores.
Speaker 3: So these things do exist.
Speaker 7: I do take his point about, you know, people are
Speaker 7: working seventy eighty hours a week, and so that's some
Speaker 7: of the things that I've been talking about, Well, how
Speaker 7: do we construct something like that? And I don't have
Speaker 7: all the answers, but I do have some. I do
Speaker 7: have some ideas that I'm exploring. And I would just
Speaker 7: say this about being in south because he was like,
Speaker 7: y'all talk about you know, he said foreign politics. I
Speaker 7: think he meant foreign policy and the immigration issue. And
Speaker 7: I just want to clarify that it is not my
Speaker 7: ministry ever to work with people who.
Speaker 3: Are anti black.
Speaker 7: There may be somebody out there to do that, and
Speaker 7: is work for you if you got it to give.
Speaker 7: So I was not saying for all the people who
Speaker 7: voted for Trump and thesee communities, let's gather them and
Speaker 7: try to convince them. That's not what I do. I
Speaker 7: don't enjoy convincing, but I'm saying for the people who
Speaker 7: did not.
Speaker 3: I thought, first, it's just important that we.
Speaker 7: Know actual facts, well researched, documented facts matter even in
Speaker 7: some of the comments, I saw a lot of misinformation
Speaker 7: that I would try to correct. And so it was
Speaker 7: important because the media narrative and some people were dropping
Speaker 7: links like no, this is wrong because look at this article.
Speaker 7: And I actually would so thank you guys for actually,
Speaker 7: you know, doing research and saying but look at this article.
Speaker 7: When you do that, I would advise articles often take
Speaker 7: on a narrative. So for example, if I'm looking at polling,
Speaker 7: I'm not going to just look at the article that
Speaker 7: qualifies the polling. I'm going to look at what they hyperlinked.
Speaker 7: Where did they get this information from. So if they
Speaker 7: say something like, well, I'm just making this up, this
Speaker 7: is not a real number. If they say something like
Speaker 7: nine out of ten people in aero community voted for
Speaker 7: that's not a real number. I'm making that up. But
Speaker 7: I'm gonna look at this with some intellectual curiosity. What
Speaker 7: are you basing this on? If this is an exit poll,
Speaker 7: who are you considering in the Arab community? Who are
Speaker 7: these people? Was it specific to a region or when
Speaker 7: you say this, did your polling Because not all poles
Speaker 7: are created equal. When you say this, are you including
Speaker 7: people under eighteen? Undocumented migrants who can't vote, and sometimes
Speaker 7: you will find that the data does include that. I'm
Speaker 7: not a social scientist, so I often have to lean
Speaker 7: on people who are. I talk for hours to the
Speaker 7: Phernana Mandhi, Terrence from Hit Strategies, who Angela knows, Cornell Belcher,
Speaker 7: Slinda Lake, you know people who can understand these things better.
Speaker 7: So just combing through that data is really important. White
Speaker 7: run newsrooms will say something and then when you look
Speaker 7: into it, often there's a nuance that they miss. My
Speaker 7: only ask of people is that we care. I'm not
Speaker 7: even saying go out and do anything right now, because
Speaker 7: I don't know what that is. Andrew, I would love
Speaker 7: for you to address what he said about protesting is
Speaker 7: to be honest, I don't I don't know that I'm
Speaker 7: in a protest state of mind. I don't know that
Speaker 7: I'm in a state of mind of I don't think
Speaker 7: that my position has changed since the election. I think
Speaker 7: I still feel the same way. I think I'm still
Speaker 7: feeling like is this a democracy that we even want
Speaker 7: to uphold?
Speaker 3: I'm choking. Sorry, I'm getting choked up. I don't even
Speaker 3: know if.
Speaker 6: We can come back to you, So you commute it and.
Speaker 7: Sorry, guys, Well, she don't like coughing if you're near her.
Speaker 7: She's a germophobe, and I feel the same way. But
Speaker 7: I I just wanted I'll I'll wrap this up because
Speaker 7: I do probably need a cough but I would just
Speaker 7: say the only thing I'm suggesting is to ally with
Speaker 7: the people who are our allies, who are people. Yes,
Speaker 7: I've gone into these communities and talked about anti black work.
Speaker 7: I'm not a policy person though, thank you to my
Speaker 7: co host who tell me I I am. But I've
Speaker 7: never worked on policy. But I have gone into communities
Speaker 7: and done anti black work in the era of community,
Speaker 7: in the API community, in the Latino community. I've helped
Speaker 7: with research, I've set on panels. I'm not a researcher,
Speaker 7: but I've been interviewed. I offer some black perspective to
Speaker 7: these communities and organizing work that I've done across all
Speaker 7: communities of color, including the indigenous communities. Phil I just
Speaker 7: want you all to understand when I bring something to you,
Speaker 7: it is thought out. You don't have to agree, and
Speaker 7: I definitely appreciate people's perspectives, but at fourteen percent of
Speaker 7: the population, I just don't know that this is a
Speaker 7: war that we can go at alone. I think we
Speaker 7: do have to have soldiers. And if you know, forty
Speaker 7: eight percent of Latino men voted for Trump. Of course
Speaker 7: that number is too high. Of course there's anti black sentiment,
Speaker 7: but that could also mean that there's fifty two percent
Speaker 7: of people that we may be able to reach and
Speaker 7: lock arms with. Even if you disagree with that, I
Speaker 7: think when it comes to having a man yanked out
Speaker 7: of his home and sent to an offshore torture camp,
Speaker 7: I think we have to dig in our humanity a
Speaker 7: little bit just to care, because if we don't think
Speaker 7: we're in the same path of destruction, we're misguided. So anyway,
Speaker 7: I want to hear what you guys have to say,
Speaker 7: because I think what his point also was, like all
Speaker 7: that protests and and f all this kind of gets
Speaker 7: to what Angela was saying that she wants to talk about.
Speaker 7: And I don't know that I disagree with that, Like
Speaker 7: I don't know that I feel differently from f all this.
Speaker 7: I can say f all this and still have the
Speaker 7: heart to care about fellow human beings.
Speaker 2: Hear.
Speaker 8: You know, one I want to shout out is do
Speaker 8: rag I really do? I just think that it's dope
Speaker 8: that he felt that at home to come on just well,
Speaker 8: I love it. You know. The other thing that I
Speaker 8: really that's present for me is, and I feel like
Speaker 8: I say this all the time, the number of black
Speaker 8: folks who have changed how we see the world, who
Speaker 8: impacted our access to civil rights, who impacted how incredible
Speaker 8: we see ourselves. So many of them were either children
Speaker 8: of immigrants or immigrants themselves. Marcus Garvey comes to mind,
Speaker 8: a child of an immigrant, Malcolm X comes to mind.
Speaker 8: And I think the other thing that is bothering me,
Speaker 8: as you know we do this tour is one of
Speaker 8: our partners is the Black Alliance for Just Immigration, and
Speaker 8: they released the paper recently, right after Trump's one hundred
Speaker 8: first one hundred days, and they are talking about the
Speaker 8: number of black migrants who are being impacted by what's
Speaker 8: going on.
Speaker 6: And I think that's another thing.
Speaker 8: For whatever reason, in our minds, and I'm saying, our collective,
Speaker 8: our minds, we see immigration as a brown problem and
Speaker 8: that just couldn't be further from the truth. So with
Speaker 8: the for example, the cut to temporary protected status, which
Speaker 8: was set to expire on August third, twenty twenty five,
Speaker 8: is set to expire on August third, twenty five hundred
Speaker 8: thousand Haitian people will be impacted by that. There are
Speaker 8: five hundred and fifty two nine hundred and fifty seven
Speaker 8: black immigrants who are eligible for TPS from six other
Speaker 8: countries who will be impacted by that. There is a
Speaker 8: whole research paper about that. I'll make sure that Nick
Speaker 8: on our production team gets a link to that so
Speaker 8: you can see that. I implore you, even if you
Speaker 8: just read the executive summary, to look at how many
Speaker 8: black people are impacted by this. So the very bottom
Speaker 8: line the TIF just reference around us being twelve, some
Speaker 8: people argue thirteen fourteen percent of the population that includes
Speaker 8: black migrants fam so your numbers get real low after that.
Speaker 6: I live in Seattle.
Speaker 8: Our Black Port Commissioner, who I hope we have on
Speaker 8: this show soon, is a Somali woman who is so
Speaker 8: down for the cause and fighting for folks who are
Speaker 8: both migrants and folks who are from here for multiple generations.
Speaker 8: So I just think that we really have to thread
Speaker 8: this needle a little better. And I'm not saying that
Speaker 8: my sentiment has changed much from the election either, But
Speaker 8: what I'm not about to do is let the error
Speaker 8: of somebody else's ways hang all of us out to dry.
Speaker 8: So I am going to fight to protect whatever protections
Speaker 8: we have left.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, y'all, I sort of thought that when
Speaker 1: we had this conversation, we weren't asking people to abandon
Speaker 1: their care for us, for our community, for black folks.
Speaker 1: I kind of had the conversation. I assume we were
Speaker 1: having the conversation and the light of if this is
Speaker 1: happening to those adjacent right next to us, could be
Speaker 1: you know, cousins down the road right probably are in
Speaker 1: some in some shape or form. If we were to
Speaker 1: really trace back right that if this happening there, can
Speaker 1: you imagine what it's going to look like when it
Speaker 1: hits us. That almost as a cautionary note that these
Speaker 1: folks aren't playing and they're not discriminating. They won't all
Speaker 1: to like and brown folks wrangled up and shipped out
Speaker 1: and off to some place. I would, obviously, I'd love
Speaker 1: to appeal to the humanity of all of us to
Speaker 1: care about one another. In fact, I was my my
Speaker 1: my twins graduated from fifth grade last week, now going
Speaker 1: into middle school. Got to help us all.
Speaker 3: Congratulations.
Speaker 1: One of the thank you one of the one of
Speaker 1: the songs that they sang at their graduation was we
Speaker 1: Are the World. And I remember looking at the Netflix
Speaker 1: documentary of Like the Greatest Night, which was the recording
Speaker 1: of that, and of course that song was about ending
Speaker 1: the tremendous hunger deficit that had hit various parts of Africa,
Speaker 1: but in South Africa, and then those those entertainers traveled
Speaker 1: the world to bring attention funding food. These were black
Speaker 1: folks in America doing what they could for folks on
Speaker 1: the continent, largely black folks on the continent, but people
Speaker 1: on the continent who wouldn't necessarily relate to us as
Speaker 1: African Americans, right, but rather as descendants of various parts
Speaker 1: of the continent that we have to be bigger, we
Speaker 1: have to. In fact, it'd be a pretty damn depressed
Speaker 1: place to live if all we ever did was concentrate
Speaker 1: on the me me, me, me, me of it all,
Speaker 1: largely because we are likely then going to miss the
Speaker 1: next attack, the next you know, onslaught that's coming our way,
Speaker 1: because we're so bareled in. So you know, I don't
Speaker 1: think this is lecture season. I just think I just want,
Speaker 1: you know, to join you all and clarifying I wasn't
Speaker 1: necessarily really appealing to the greater humanity, but rather cautionary note.
Speaker 1: All over the place, we're seeing it happen everywhere and
Speaker 1: when it hits your block. And I still maintain people
Speaker 1: plug in when you're not just on their street, but
Speaker 1: you got to be up to drive, and damn they're
Speaker 1: coming in the house before we recognize the severity of
Speaker 1: the threat. Otherwise it's kind of just it's kind of
Speaker 1: white noise in the space.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The other the only other thing I would say, y'all,
Speaker 1: and i'd love to get y'all's feedback. Here is this
Speaker 1: idea of you know, you described Tiffany a utopia, and
Speaker 1: I feel you, and I felt you while you were
Speaker 1: describing that, even without the real lived examples of where
Speaker 1: it's happening. But it brings me back to our conversation
Speaker 1: in your house, on your couch and on your floor
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, where we were talking about imagination,
Speaker 1: Like if we had a whiteboard and we were in
Speaker 1: control of the pen and we could we could we
Speaker 1: could write this thing however we wanted it. What we
Speaker 1: would look like, how our families would look, what marriage
Speaker 1: is for us would look like, Uh, what a success
Speaker 1: redefine this time by us look like. But it really
Speaker 1: does reemphasize it's a luxury, y'all to dream. It's a
Speaker 1: luxury to pull back and say, man, if we could
Speaker 1: do it all over again. And by the way, this
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you can't be you can't be poor and
Speaker 1: not have imagination. You can be any strike. But it
Speaker 1: just does require us lifting above our circumstances to say, man,
Speaker 1: if I had my dreathers, this is what it would
Speaker 1: look like out of anybody's box. There are no boxes,
Speaker 1: there are no walls, there's no ceiling, there's no floor.
Speaker 1: It's just whatever I think and I wish for our people.
Speaker 1: And I mean it's from the bottom of my heart
Speaker 1: that we could really collectively, individually dream cast and then
Speaker 1: start to take the steps that might help us actual
Speaker 1: lives what those dreams might be.
Speaker 7: That's a good exercise, I think for the audience. Just
Speaker 7: as we get into this conversation about democracy, if you
Speaker 7: were its agent, if you were and I almost don't
Speaker 7: want to use the word democracy. I want to use
Speaker 7: the word constructing of society because we're so entrenched in
Speaker 7: what colonialism placed in our heads about what democracy even is.
Speaker 7: So throw out that word and just you have a
Speaker 7: blank slate. What does the construction of a society that's
Speaker 7: equitable look like? You know, at least that's tapping into
Speaker 7: the imagination. You know, I have to tell you Andrew
Speaker 7: that conversation we had. As you know, I'm Andrew is
Speaker 7: kind enough to let me read to him some of
Speaker 7: the things that I've been writing, and so he knows
Speaker 7: that I've written about that. And as you were saying that,
Speaker 7: there are so many conversations I'm having lately that I
Speaker 7: carry with me and I want to offer this to
Speaker 7: the audience. I'll get more to it in my CTA.
Speaker 7: But I've been having breakfast and coffee or just sitting
Speaker 7: with the thinkers, the intellectual what I would call intellectuals,
Speaker 7: the elders, the seers, some and one person who has
Speaker 7: been so kind to oblige me with his time. I
Speaker 7: have to beg him for weeks and then all the
Speaker 7: blue he'll say, okay, I can meet for you know,
Speaker 7: breakfast now. But every time it was like five hours.
Speaker 7: And that's doctor Greg Carr, who is just a visionary.
Speaker 7: And I get to just worship and sit from his
Speaker 7: fountain as he talks me through things. Sometimes it's not
Speaker 7: a name you would know, you know. Sometimes it's just
Speaker 7: miss Pauline, who's eighty six years old living in one
Speaker 7: of these communities, black communities, who lets me sit on
Speaker 7: her porch with her for hours.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 7: Sometimes it's the uber driver and it's not just talking
Speaker 7: to me about what's happening in America. But you know,
Speaker 7: I read a book on the Armenian genocide, you know,
Speaker 7: something we never even knew about, and it just feels
Speaker 7: for me like a time of listening. Like sometimes and
Speaker 7: you have to believe this, but sometimes I just want
Speaker 7: to say, shut the fuck up, like stop talking and listen,
Speaker 7: close your mouth and stop trying to debate and learn,
Speaker 7: be quiet in your stillness. And even in some of
Speaker 7: the comments that were a bit more combative, it is like, yeah,
Speaker 7: you want to debate with me all day and I'm
Speaker 7: not even thinking about you, Like I'm like, thin, debate
Speaker 7: with yourself. And I don't even say that in an
Speaker 7: ugly way. I mean debate with yourself in terms of
Speaker 7: challenging your own notions, have some curiosity for yourself about
Speaker 7: what does this all mean? And I think when we
Speaker 7: think about like conversations like this, and when I get
Speaker 7: to just sit and listen to people and I can
Speaker 7: ask my questions because I'm not asking questions in debate.
Speaker 7: I'm asking questions from a place of thirst for knowledge.
Speaker 7: You know from your wise decades spent in these years
Speaker 7: that nothing but days on this earth can afford you,
Speaker 7: Like what have you witnessed?
Speaker 3: What have you learned?
Speaker 7: And in the silk linings of your hands, can you
Speaker 7: pass some of that on to me? And I will
Speaker 7: tell you I really feel resigned to I don't know
Speaker 7: that we survived this as a species, and listening and
Speaker 7: talking to the elders and trying to think about that
Speaker 7: so in it does feel to me very much like
Speaker 7: the beginning of the end of times. It may not
Speaker 7: be in our lifetime, but it does feel like that.
Speaker 7: I don't know how we go this far and go back.
Speaker 7: So as we think about democracy and moving to that conversation,
Speaker 7: I would just invite us to think about not just
Speaker 7: what happened here, but what's happened here one hundred times
Speaker 7: before this moment happened. Because these moments have happened, it's time.
Speaker 7: It is a flat circle on repeat repeatedly, again and again.
Speaker 7: One hundred years ago, this happened, five hundred years ago,
Speaker 7: this happened a thousand years ago, has happened. And that's
Speaker 7: what reading affords you, That's what listening and learning with
Speaker 7: curiosity affords you, a.
Speaker 3: Knowledge base of what has happened.
Speaker 7: We are not new here, you know, we're not so
Speaker 7: arrogant to think we're the first people to face this.
Speaker 3: So I don't know.
Speaker 7: I'm struggling with a lot of this, particlarly, what about
Speaker 7: the protest piece. I'm not protesting. I do kind of
Speaker 7: still feel like all this, But how can we protect
Speaker 7: those of us who have a desire to live comfortably
Speaker 7: and safely while we're remaining here.
Speaker 3: I know that sounds morbid. No, No, I mean you're taking.
Speaker 1: Me back to my Kojak upbringing, when my every Sunday
Speaker 1: is we living in our last days. I swear to God,
Speaker 1: I was gonna die before we made it home for church.
Speaker 1: I mean, I was terrified, But in all seriousness, my
Speaker 1: agree up was my grandmother who would say, and I
Speaker 1: said this to y'all after we had cut last week,
Speaker 1: there ain't nothing new under the sun, right. I would
Speaker 1: come home thinking I had the greatest new revelation, and
Speaker 1: you know, just in her sober sold Southern country specialized way,
Speaker 1: like there ain't nothing new under the sun. We've seen
Speaker 1: this before, and I actually think that that's part of
Speaker 1: the superpower of our people. A lot of times those
Speaker 1: voices are the sobering ones when we think the train
Speaker 1: is over the cliff, and it sometimes takes those folks
Speaker 1: who have been here a little while seen able something
Speaker 1: to just remind us, like we've survived this, We're going
Speaker 1: to survive it. You know. Again, we will have to
Speaker 1: dig into your fatalist view of you know, the things.
Speaker 1: But Angela, what you got on this before we transition
Speaker 1: to your topic.
Speaker 3: I feel like we transition in.
Speaker 1: Well then there it is.
Speaker 6: No I'm saying.
Speaker 7: Everything we've been saying, I think is talking about like
Speaker 7: what has gone wrong, which is so.
Speaker 1: We I think we have all individually challenged this notion
Speaker 1: of whether or not we actually live in a democracy,
Speaker 1: if it ever truly was, And of course, the founders
Speaker 1: of this country, when establishing its its foundational documents, you know,
Speaker 1: very clearly described this as a republicmocratic republic, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, in the way that they shaped and formed
Speaker 1: this thing that we would basically send a certain class
Speaker 1: a person to act in our best interest and on
Speaker 1: our behalf. Basically this notion of a trustee over us
Speaker 1: rather than a delegate, and these were people who would
Speaker 1: then take in information and decide based off their worldview
Speaker 1: what should be what. I don't know that that is
Speaker 1: the truest reflection of what we might understand a democracy
Speaker 1: to be, but it's certainly what the founders pass on
Speaker 1: to us. So before we get too deep into the
Speaker 1: question of whether or not this thing has been lost
Speaker 1: and what led to it being lost, I'd love to
Speaker 1: hear y'alls thoughts on whether or not you how would you,
Speaker 1: in your own description describe democracy, if that's the thing
Speaker 1: that you want us to strive toward. What would be
Speaker 1: your definition of what democracy is? Doesn't have to do websters,
Speaker 1: but just what's you? You know, what's out of the heart?
Speaker 6: I can tell you what it's not.
Speaker 8: But before I get into my definition, and maybe we
Speaker 8: take a quick break, and then when we get on
Speaker 8: the other side of the break, we can hear from
Speaker 8: Scott Pelley from sixty Minutes Get It.
Speaker 6: Last Role This clip from Scott Pelly, but.
Speaker 9: In this moment, this moment, this morning, our sacred rule
Speaker 9: of law is underattack. Journalism is underattack, universities are underattack.
Speaker 9: Freedom of speech is underattack. And insidious fear is reaching
Speaker 9: through our schools, our businesses, our homes, and into our
Speaker 9: private thoughts the fear to speak.
Speaker 1: In America.
Speaker 9: Power can rewrite history with grotesque, false narratives. They can
Speaker 9: make criminals heroes and heroes criminals. Power can change the
Speaker 9: definition of the words we use to describe reality. Diversity
Speaker 9: is now described as illegal, Equity is to be shunned.
Speaker 9: Inclusion is a dirty word. This is an old playbook,
Speaker 9: my friends.
Speaker 1: There's nothing new in this as.
Speaker 6: Yep, last than evil days for four hundred years. So
Speaker 6: I think there are a couple things. The first thing
Speaker 6: that comes to mind is.
Speaker 8: A chicken's coming home to roost moment where I'm feeling like,
Speaker 8: welcome to the America that many of our people have
Speaker 8: always seen. They've never seen the other America that these
Speaker 8: folks regularly described, They've never seen it. There are people
Speaker 8: in our communities that have never seen the promise, the dream,
Speaker 8: or the hope of America. We're hearing that in more
Speaker 8: stops than that, and the other thing that I'm feeling
Speaker 8: is we're really about to all die. It is it
Speaker 8: is like the convergence. Yeah, it's the convergence of both,
Speaker 8: like it is. I feel frustrated that it took all
Speaker 8: of this for people to understand how on the brink
Speaker 8: we've been for many year years. Some people would argue
Speaker 8: that the brink was Citizens United. Some people would argue
Speaker 8: that the brink was Mitch McConnell not confirming Barack Obama's
Speaker 8: pick for the Supreme Court.
Speaker 6: Some people would argue that it came, you.
Speaker 8: Know, the moment that the Supreme Court said, you know,
Speaker 8: in the Shelby versus Holder case, that we're going to
Speaker 8: actually gut the Voting Rights Act. Some would argue that
Speaker 8: it became the moment that the Voting Rights Act became
Speaker 8: a partisan measure. Some would argue it came as soon
Speaker 8: as this black man say yes we can. Some would
Speaker 8: argue that it became an issue in sixteen nineteen. And
Speaker 8: I think regardless of when you make the argument, the
Speaker 8: fact remains that there are people who have cautioned us,
Speaker 8: like John the Baptist in the Bible, for many years
Speaker 8: that this has been problematic, and we have not taken
Speaker 8: heed to any of the caution We didn't take heed
Speaker 8: when the person by the side of the road said
Speaker 8: I'm hungry and there's no refuge for me. We didn't
Speaker 8: take it as a cautionary measure. When kids couldn't work
Speaker 8: in the summer. We didn't take it as a cautionary
Speaker 8: measure when people couldn't afford healthcare.
Speaker 6: And at some point, the way that you treat the poorest,
Speaker 6: the most vulnerable among you becomes the truth for all
Speaker 6: of us. And that is where we are right now.
Speaker 8: So now we're all crying out help, relief is needed, sos, sos,
Speaker 8: But now it's too late. Arguably it's too late, Like
Speaker 8: there has to be quite the shift in order for
Speaker 8: it to be different. I don't know that a midterm
Speaker 8: election could save us, particularly where everybody's votes won't count,
Speaker 8: because everybody's votes haven't counted for over a decade forever,
Speaker 8: right yeah, well, I'm saying in modern history, for over
Speaker 8: a decade, right like we have we I don't know.
Speaker 7: I saw that guy, Well, I can I just give
Speaker 7: the audience a little bit of contact from the Scott
Speaker 7: Pelly speech, because the reason why that speech was such
Speaker 7: a big deal, so many people talked about it. It went
Speaker 7: viral is because it was a spiece that he gave
Speaker 7: at Wake Forest. And as you all know, Scott Pelly
Speaker 7: is one of the longest correspondents with sixty minutes. This
Speaker 7: is why it matters, and we'll see if he returns
Speaker 7: because everything he said in that speech was truth. However,
Speaker 7: sixty minutes is of course on CBS, which is under Paramount.
Speaker 7: Paramount is trying to Shehrry Redstone, who is the majority
Speaker 7: shareholder of Paramount. Some of the Redstone's daughter is trying
Speaker 7: to sell Paramount to sky Dance. Now, when you're trying
Speaker 7: to sell something that big, you've got a right which
Speaker 7: involves the FTC and the DLJ. Now, because the Trump
Speaker 7: administration is they made a big deal and essentially lied
Speaker 7: because they've they've been attacking media. I won't get into
Speaker 7: the all the minutia, but they've been attacking media, and
Speaker 7: so sixty minutes have come under fire because they said
Speaker 7: that they're claimed falsely and incorrectly that they were partial
Speaker 7: to Kamala Harris during the election. And so as a result,
Speaker 7: the executives at Paramount say to sixty minutes, they start
Speaker 7: trying to filter some of their stories, and they say
Speaker 7: to them, we want to see everything you're doing for
Speaker 7: the rest of the season that has anything to do
Speaker 7: with Trump. Sixty minutes has always been the gold standard
Speaker 7: in journalism. So for them to say something like that,
Speaker 7: your news division always operates independent of any business dealings.
Speaker 7: For them to say that to the gold standard to
Speaker 7: sixty minutes, it was so jarring that the executive producer quit,
Speaker 7: Don Hewett quit, and so then you had Scott Pelley
Speaker 7: come out and close the show and kind of say
Speaker 7: at the end, it is a sad day for this broadcast,
Speaker 7: like I cannot believe that they're asking us to do this.
Speaker 7: And he gave this, you know, very glowing farewell to
Speaker 7: the executive producer who left. So for him to come
Speaker 7: out at wake Forest University and say declared, this is
Speaker 7: a problem in our society, I just wonder how that's
Speaker 7: going to play within the halls of paramount, particularly at CBS.
Speaker 3: So just kudos to him.
Speaker 7: And I think this is a prime example of what
Speaker 7: you have to do to hold the line, because not
Speaker 7: too many people have been holding the line in any
Speaker 7: part of this democracy, at least of all the media.
Speaker 7: And I would argue Congress, I would all all the
Speaker 7: branches of government, all of our our core principles around
Speaker 7: what holds the society. No one has been holding the line.
Speaker 7: So I love Scott Pelly for that. I'm happy he
Speaker 7: said something I've you know, had some criticisms of CBS
Speaker 7: over the years, but they have done solid reporting, solid journalism.
Speaker 7: So I'm happy that he said that, and it punctuated
Speaker 7: all the points that I, Angela made.
Speaker 1: I love it. If what what what does democracy look
Speaker 1: like to each of you? If we can recognize that
Speaker 1: it doesn't, that what we have right now doesn't resemble
Speaker 1: what we think democras's supposed to be. Angela, you mentioned
Speaker 1: in your comments that you on this tour are interfacing
Speaker 1: with folks who have never been on the beneficiary side
Speaker 1: of the American dream. They've only known the horror to
Speaker 1: the story, only lived the horrors of the story, and
Speaker 1: in fact that many instances have had the institutions weaponized
Speaker 1: and turned against them for as long as memory serves.
Speaker 1: So we know what it isn't, But what is it?
Speaker 8: I think it's the antithesis of everything we see crumbling
Speaker 8: right like I think that in order for us to
Speaker 8: construct something different. I think Tiff has been saying on
Speaker 8: the show almost weekly that she doesn't think that this
Speaker 8: is salvageable. And I think in order for us to determine,
Speaker 8: you know what, where the where the trouble lies? Where
Speaker 8: are all of the issues, we have to talk about
Speaker 8: what is broken, So from the legislature, to the judiciary,
Speaker 8: to the media, the responsible of the media. You talked
Speaker 8: earlier on this call about campaign finance issues, the access
Speaker 8: to the voting booth. You know, we're in a society
Speaker 8: where as he just talked about in the excerpt of
Speaker 8: the speech we played, where diversity and difference is called illegal, right, Like,
Speaker 8: I don't know what else you can't which you can
Speaker 8: say about that? And then the construct of a two
Speaker 8: party system where you have to figure out a way
Speaker 8: to force yourself into a space that may or may
Speaker 8: not really represent your interests. There are a bunch of issues,
Speaker 8: and I think that it would do our podcast good,
Speaker 8: on our community good to even engage around this about
Speaker 8: what are all the broken pieces. There are focus groups
Speaker 8: that were done over the last several weeks and then
Speaker 8: this Catalyst report that came out. But in these focus groups,
Speaker 8: they go and they talk to black folks who've traditionally
Speaker 8: been Democratic voters about all the issues they see with
Speaker 8: the party. Well, the issues that they see with the
Speaker 8: party are also the things being reflected back in society
Speaker 8: right The party, the Democratic Party, is seeing itself as
Speaker 8: the thing that should be the protector of a system
Speaker 8: that in so many ways isn't affront to us, has
Speaker 8: been disrespectful to us, has not seen us, has not
Speaker 8: valued us, and has treated many of us as a transaction.
Speaker 8: I'm not suggesting that we go to the other party.
Speaker 8: I'm suggesting that we find ourselves homeless, you know. And
Speaker 8: I think that that is another real issue. So we
Speaker 8: are wrestling with a crisis that we saw play out
Speaker 8: in an election in this past fall. We are seeing
Speaker 8: one that played out in election in twenty sixteen, on
Speaker 8: the other side of a pandemic in twenty twenty where
Speaker 8: people can.
Speaker 6: Question damn cience, you know.
Speaker 8: I mean that I think is their erosion of democracy too,
Speaker 8: Like climate change is a thing, and they are arguing
Speaker 8: that it's not a thing, and then going to double
Speaker 8: down in the things that cause the greatest harm, against
Speaker 8: clean drinking water, against access to anyway.
Speaker 1: I'll camp out here because I think you yet there
Speaker 1: are a lot. I would just say two things. One
Speaker 1: when when we got to the point and I would
Speaker 1: I would make the argument that Fox News is the
Speaker 1: is probably the largest, if not singletary, contributed to this,
Speaker 1: except that they are regulated through the FCC and then
Speaker 1: within the the broadcast and the news and journalism community,
Speaker 1: it's supposed to be another check on it, which I
Speaker 1: would argue has completely failed. But when Fox News got
Speaker 1: in the position where they could disconnect facts from basically
Speaker 1: that there would be o true arbiter of what is
Speaker 1: real and what isn't. So they eroded the lines, They
Speaker 1: confused the facts and came up with alternative facts, and
Speaker 1: then made alternative facts a thing, right, when really an
Speaker 1: alternative fact is a lie and an alternative fact is false.
Speaker 1: But they were able to blur the lines between what
Speaker 1: is somebody's opinion and then what is a fact. Everybody's
Speaker 1: entitled to their own opinions, but you're not entitled to
Speaker 1: your own fact. The facts are what they are, and
Speaker 1: you can derive from them whatever opinion you may wish.
Speaker 1: But there are some agreed upon foundational things that if
Speaker 1: we're both looking at this goddamn paper and we see
Speaker 1: twelve and twelve is the only number on there. You
Speaker 1: can't say thirty two. And unfortunately they got away with that.
Speaker 1: And there's that genie has not been put back in
Speaker 1: a bottle at all. In fact, it's running rampant all
Speaker 1: throughout the society. And our failure at the regulatory place
Speaker 1: to enforce some some dictums, some some regulatory consequence for
Speaker 1: that erosion is the fault of a democracy, is the
Speaker 1: fault of the institution's failing largely due to cowardice, I
Speaker 1: would submit. The other thing I would say is democracy
Speaker 1: to me doesn't and shouldn't equal a two party system.
Speaker 1: In fact, I think I think I would like to
Speaker 1: imagine a place where parties different than what they do today,
Speaker 1: where they have statutory significance and presence. There are that
Speaker 1: there are lines and laws that describe how Democrats and
Speaker 1: Republicans are to then extract power or assume their power.
Speaker 1: Our democracy, and it gives no regard to other minor parties,
Speaker 1: none of any significance. So what if everybody at the
Speaker 1: age of eighteen or sixteen were able to vote without registering.
Speaker 1: What if, by right of the fact that you were
Speaker 1: a US citizen that you can go in any ballot
Speaker 1: box wherever it is that you call yourself home and
Speaker 1: vote on any election. And why is it that if
Speaker 1: you are a Democrat or a Republican, you're the only
Speaker 1: ones who participate in a primary and everybody else has
Speaker 1: to wait to the very end before people even know
Speaker 1: that there's a race to be considered. An election has happened,
Speaker 1: and they haven't even been able to consume the information
Speaker 1: because they're not a part of the Democratic or the
Speaker 1: Republican party. In fact, in many states, no party affiliate
Speaker 1: and independent is the majority registration. So if we were
Speaker 1: to abolish the fact that you didn't have to be
Speaker 1: a Democrat or a Republican and that the systems and
Speaker 1: laws were not constructed to to value you above everybody else,
Speaker 1: what if in a democratic society we had branches of
Speaker 1: government that were actually accountable to the people that put
Speaker 1: them there, meaning the voters, rather than the moneyed interests
Speaker 1: that runs roughshod over everything, regulatory, governance, you name it,
Speaker 1: they got it. I think in a democracy, your history
Speaker 1: as a former felon should be of no consequence once
Speaker 1: you've repaid your debt to society. Meaning you served your time,
Speaker 1: and if you don't have a felony and you're incarcerated,
Speaker 1: you should be gift wrapped your ballot box because you
Speaker 1: still have the right to vote. Yet many of people
Speaker 1: who are sitting in jail yet waiting a trial are
Speaker 1: never ever reminded of the fact that they still have
Speaker 1: their constitutional and legal rights to vote. So, from top
Speaker 1: to bottom, the system is designed for the powerful to
Speaker 1: keep power, and that's Democrat or Republican, for those in
Speaker 1: power to keep power, and everybody else to hell with you.
Speaker 1: They could care less. And then we wonder why people
Speaker 1: complain about never having their streets paved. No libraries, no
Speaker 1: fresh food markets, no no recreation that includes trees and
Speaker 1: paved parking, bike lanes and so on and so forth.
Speaker 1: They've already told us that we don't matter. And then
Speaker 1: we try to do this exercise of get out to vote,
Speaker 1: get out the vote, get out to vote, and folks
Speaker 1: are like, vote for fucking what.
Speaker 6: I just want to say, bike lanes are for terrorist activity,
Speaker 6: They stress me.
Speaker 1: You sound like my mama bound roundabouts anyway. But that's
Speaker 1: the point, right The needs, the basic needs and stuff
Speaker 1: that's so essential is a is a dream to people,
Speaker 1: because that's how bad the system fails us. I'm done
Speaker 1: on it.
Speaker 7: I feel like I am in a different state of
Speaker 7: mind than you and Angela, maybe because what you guys
Speaker 7: are talking about all makes sense. You know, I don't
Speaker 7: disagree with anything you said. That is how you can
Speaker 7: fix this broken system that exists.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 7: I think my perspective is still which is still developing,
Speaker 7: you know, So y'all give me some grace to the
Speaker 7: audience as I'm.
Speaker 3: Figuring out what.
Speaker 7: What makes sense? Right, I just want to make it
Speaker 7: clearer to the audience. Like I'm like, y'all, I'm trying
Speaker 7: to figure this shit out myself. I don't know that
Speaker 7: this is a system like even what you all are
Speaker 7: talking about. If we tap into our imagination, it talks
Speaker 7: about the system itself, and even an idea of voting,
Speaker 7: the idea of even having prisons.
Speaker 3: You know, these are.
Speaker 7: Things that I don't know that I connect with anymore.
Speaker 7: As soon as I realize that this is all just
Speaker 7: a set of uns folk in guidelines that are not
Speaker 7: truly enforceable, then it just became well, then what are
Speaker 7: we even doing here? Enough people just decided, well, this
Speaker 7: constitution like what a monument's clause. We don't care about that.
Speaker 7: You know, who cares about this fourteenth Amendment? Who cares?
Speaker 7: If they can tap into their imagine on that level,
Speaker 7: then we can go a lot further. So I don't
Speaker 7: even know, like when we talk about the party, I
Speaker 7: gotta be honest, I don't really care about the Democratic
Speaker 7: Party right now. That's not you know, I don't feel
Speaker 7: a line now that is not to say that we
Speaker 7: should not vote and we should not hold them accountable.
Speaker 7: You know, like we gave them power. And I mean
Speaker 7: that specifically we gave them power. We are the voting base,
Speaker 7: but I mean if we look at the macro and
Speaker 7: not the micro. I just even this idea of capitalism,
Speaker 7: you know that that was born out of the plantation
Speaker 7: and slavery.
Speaker 3: Even this idea of how far.
Speaker 7: We've come, well, you know, in reading it will show
Speaker 7: you if we start with slavery, then everything we done
Speaker 7: look like progress. But if you go before that, we
Speaker 7: still in debt, we are still having those problems. So
Speaker 7: I just when we ask the question, what does democracy
Speaker 7: look like to us? So I say, I kind of
Speaker 7: got to strike the term democracy. I talked about this
Speaker 7: before the book The Poison with Bible, where they you know,
Speaker 7: historical fiction where they talk about the reign of La
Speaker 7: Mumba and the you know, local savages as the white
Speaker 7: people looked at them, talked about how the American democracy
Speaker 7: makes no sense. You telling me this eighteen year old
Speaker 7: boy got as much power as me, and I'm a chief,
Speaker 7: and his opinion counts the same as mine. You telling
Speaker 7: me because forty nine percent of your people can be
Speaker 7: unhappy just because fifty one percent of your people like it,
Speaker 7: that makes sense to y'all in America?
Speaker 3: Then this is my point.
Speaker 7: When you look at the founders, when you look this
Speaker 7: is why I say reading right now is the time
Speaker 7: for reading, listening and learning. I wonder when Abraham Lincoln said,
Speaker 7: you know what, when he called the black folks and said,
Speaker 7: I don't want to live with y'all because y'all ain't
Speaker 7: never gonna let us for your slavery, and we don't
Speaker 7: want to be reminded of that shit. Y'all gonna always be
Speaker 7: mad at us, We're gonna be mad at y'all. I
Speaker 7: think y'all should just get the fuck out. I'm wondering now,
Speaker 7: like you know what, he might have had a point,
Speaker 7: because if we are still fighting these same battles, and
Speaker 7: it's true, we have never confronted that history, so if
Speaker 7: we're still fighting that, I just don't know that trying
Speaker 7: to save, repair, or build a system within this construct
Speaker 7: of whiteness and white power and a ruling class that
Speaker 7: has been overwhelmingly white makes sense for us. So I
Speaker 7: just again, I don't know that we can serve. Even
Speaker 7: if I thought it was salvageable, I don't know that
Speaker 7: it's possible to save it. When looking at a multi racial,
Speaker 7: multi ethnic society where everyone arrives to participate on equal footing,
Speaker 7: I think they will worship their true God, and that
Speaker 7: is power, and they will destroy everything in its path
Speaker 7: before they allow that to happen.
Speaker 1: I actually think in the I don't think there's a
Speaker 1: race to power right now. We can associate a race
Speaker 1: to power right because it's been the same ones in
Speaker 1: charge for a long time. But I think we're all
Speaker 1: black people in charge. We would still have a problem
Speaker 1: with the corrosive effects of power. We gave the example
Speaker 1: of es Well. I think power inevitably leads to abuse.
Speaker 1: I don't know that there is a model of a
Speaker 1: ruling class of a powerful class that doesn't act to
Speaker 1: protect itself, y'all. I know we are hitting this topic
Speaker 1: at a lot of different levels, but stick with us
Speaker 1: on the other side of this break.
Speaker 8: I think a ruling class is exactly the point. Like,
Speaker 8: if you are constructing a society based on there being
Speaker 8: a ruling class, the folks at the bottom will always
Speaker 8: strive to get to the top, and the folks at
Speaker 8: the top will always strive to protect their status. But
Speaker 8: if you construct a different type of society, which is
Speaker 8: where I was going to go to, I don't think
Speaker 8: that any of my remarks are about fixing the system.
Speaker 8: I think I was trying to bring us into a
Speaker 8: conversation that deepens us into where the problems are, but
Speaker 8: not to rebuild it as is. I think it's about
Speaker 8: trying to ensure that we don't rebuild the same broken system.
Speaker 8: And I also I don't support having a ruling class,
Speaker 8: like I think that there has to be something that
Speaker 8: feels a little more democratic, something that feels a little
Speaker 8: more power or for all people. I'm sure when the
Speaker 8: Fox News types and all of their supporters and they're
Speaker 8: they're the people that boost their content. The Republican talking
Speaker 8: heads get hold of this. We're gonna sound like socialist
Speaker 8: socialist Marxists, I'm sure. But I do think that the
Speaker 8: reality of it is is when you have some a few,
Speaker 8: the top one percent, which by the way, economically we're
Speaker 8: in the one percent in this country, when you try
Speaker 8: to protect the one percent or the point one percent,
Speaker 8: you're always going to have a challenge, You're always going
Speaker 8: to have a problem. I don't think that that's the
Speaker 8: right structure for us to develop or for us to
Speaker 8: be a part of. There are societies, especially on the
Speaker 8: Content and in other places that exist that are not.
Speaker 6: This combative and this troubled and this oppressive.
Speaker 1: Most of them are autocratic. It's it's you know, looking
Speaker 1: to a singular person and or a person in their
Speaker 1: fans the derivatives thereof as the leaders. There is a
Speaker 1: reason why that style of governance has lasted so long
Speaker 1: and so many places across these continents.
Speaker 3: But can you say what you said again, Andrew about power.
Speaker 3: You were saying it lives to protect.
Speaker 1: Itself, for sure. You name a powerful person, powerful person
Speaker 1: or powerful institution that is prepared to walk away from
Speaker 1: that power, decentralize it down for others. That's cannibalism. Nobody
Speaker 1: is or suicide. I mean to put it differently, Okay,
Speaker 1: think of a doctor and when the doctor explains to you, well,
Speaker 1: the reason why your wrists swole up the way that
Speaker 1: it did is because your body perceived an invasion and
Speaker 1: it believed that that invasion was intended to destroy you,
Speaker 1: to kill you. So the body sends all of this
Speaker 1: resources to that space of penetration to make sure that
Speaker 1: we don't die. The body, I don't care how you
Speaker 1: put it. If you try to drown yourself, your body
Speaker 1: reflexively is going to want to survive. It is going
Speaker 1: to want to live. I compare that the same way
Speaker 1: as I would to a ruling class. Regardless of what
Speaker 1: your better higher angels are, your body means to remain
Speaker 1: in control your status of People mean to have it
Speaker 1: their way. They can look as gratuitous as they want to.
Speaker 1: They can talk as graciously and gratuitously as they want to,
Speaker 1: including the billionaires who want to give away half their
Speaker 1: wealth or more than half their wealth. Give away half
Speaker 1: your wealth, your children's children's children's children's children plus plus
Speaker 1: plus will still be filthy wealthy. So they're not they're
Speaker 1: not nihilistic about it, right, They're not saying I don't
Speaker 1: want nothing to go to my children's children and childrens children, No, no, no,
Speaker 1: no no. They weren't their children's children's children to enjoy
Speaker 1: the same privilege that they do walk in this earth today.
Speaker 1: So then they just don't mean they just don't mean
Speaker 1: to be inglorious about it. That's a version of capitalism,
Speaker 1: but it's also capitalism as a as a route to power.
Speaker 7: Right right, So that's I think that's what Angel was describing.
Speaker 7: Like in the ruling class, you'll have the top trying
Speaker 7: to protect itself. You'll have the bottom trying, you know,
Speaker 7: being astrational. Right, that is the system of capitalism. So
Speaker 7: every to me, everything you all are saying is like,
Speaker 7: you know it challenges with this take away.
Speaker 3: The money system.
Speaker 1: Take away the money. Take away the money then and
Speaker 1: then just deal with the people in charge who gets
Speaker 1: to make the decisions. Everybody still wants to be the decider.
Speaker 1: Everybody can't be the decider, and the deciders of today
Speaker 1: want to stay the deciders. And if they're not the ones,
Speaker 1: they want their parrogeny to be the deciders because they
Speaker 1: I never want their kids disadvantage.
Speaker 7: But I so this I think gets to the other
Speaker 7: point we were making, Like the power, as we know,
Speaker 7: concedes nothing. And if you're saying power, you know feeds itself,
Speaker 7: which is true, Like it is a cannibalistic entity that
Speaker 7: people desire, people chase it. I think we saw some
Speaker 7: of that and some of the voting trends that we
Speaker 7: have seen over the past few decades.
Speaker 1: We see in some of the attitudes around immigrants from immigrants.
Speaker 7: You jumped and took my point, but you're sorry, no, no, no,
Speaker 7: I'm happy you did. You were in my mind because
Speaker 7: that's where I was going. Even we on some level
Speaker 7: have some power, we don't have, you know what the
Speaker 7: ruling class as we have some power, and our attitude
Speaker 7: has been hands off, you know, forget them, not ours collectively,
Speaker 7: but a few people in community have been in isolation
Speaker 7: like no, this is that's what's gonna happen there. And
Speaker 7: I just wonder in that society where you have that
Speaker 7: kind of attitude, how do we win? And I and
Speaker 7: I guess that's why I'm trying. My thoughts are just
Speaker 7: I don't want to say elevated as in higher, but
Speaker 7: elevated as in I'm looking down at what's happening, trying
Speaker 7: to understand it all, and trying to under look backwards
Speaker 7: what happened a million years ago, what happened a thousand
Speaker 7: years ago, what's happening right now, and what's coming? And
Speaker 7: with that, I have to say, all empires fall. There
Speaker 7: has not been one in history that hasn't. So this definitely,
Speaker 7: very much feels like this is the fall of this empire,
Speaker 7: and then what does that mean for humanity writ large?
Speaker 7: When you look at the populist movements across the globe,
Speaker 7: when you look at the genocides that we've only heard
Speaker 7: about a few, but there have been many, many, many,
Speaker 7: and there are still many happening. I'm reading this book,
Speaker 7: sky Full of Elephants. It happens to be fiction. I'm
Speaker 7: reading two books, but this is my fiction that I'm reading,
Speaker 7: and Sky Full of Elephants is a work of fiction,
Speaker 7: but it definitely taps into the mind. And the premise is,
Speaker 7: one day, every white person walks into the ocean. They
Speaker 7: just are in the trans and they walk into the
Speaker 7: ocean and they're gone. And then you have a society
Speaker 7: that's left, and what does that society look like? You
Speaker 7: have Biracials kids whose moms are white who are devastated
Speaker 7: they grew up in a white world. You know, they're sad.
Speaker 7: You have you know, black people trying to figure out
Speaker 7: how to maneuver. And there's a rumor like, don't go
Speaker 7: to the South, to stay out the South. It's awful,
Speaker 7: but that's where all the black people are. And you
Speaker 7: get down there and it is peace. It is an oasis,
Speaker 7: you know. But they've been telling everybody don't go down
Speaker 7: there because it is something to protect and know.
Speaker 3: It's a work of fiction.
Speaker 7: It pulls on It has a lot of history in
Speaker 7: it and pulls on a lot of things that happen,
Speaker 7: like their original Madi Garad I think was in Mobile,
Speaker 7: which I never knew. So it gives a lot of history.
Speaker 7: But it has been tappening into my imagination about, yeah,
Speaker 7: what does that look like? You know, because we're not
Speaker 7: going to have that society, but by twenty forty four
Speaker 7: we will be a society where there is no racial majority.
Speaker 7: So in that sense, what might that look like? And
Speaker 7: is that leading us further into this civil war that
Speaker 7: exists right now? And in that case, they outarm us,
Speaker 7: they outnumber us, We got a lot of people on
Speaker 7: our size say nope, we know that, and we still
Speaker 7: not trying to ally.
Speaker 3: We'll go it alone.
Speaker 7: Got the twelve percent and has got me questioning even
Speaker 7: our population. Angela, you said, you know, twelve percent, thirteen
Speaker 7: some maybe fourteen percent. There are some people who surmise
Speaker 7: that the census is a hypothesis. It's a guest because
Speaker 7: you know, they do overhead, they do skilling, they do
Speaker 7: right and so you know, which got me thinking when
Speaker 7: you look at places like Jackson, Mississippi, where we'll be this.
Speaker 3: Week, I hope to see y'all there. Yeah, in Mississippi?
Speaker 7: Are are we thirty nine percent of the population or
Speaker 7: might we be half?
Speaker 3: Or might we be sixty percent?
Speaker 7: Like there might be some interest in saying that we
Speaker 7: are a minority in that space.
Speaker 3: And if that's the case, I got a question everything.
Speaker 8: We also don't all voluntarily participate in the census. Folks
Speaker 8: have said for years like that we need to encourage
Speaker 8: greater census participation. There are a lot of folks that,
Speaker 8: because of the system that you're talking about challenging right now,
Speaker 8: don't trust the.
Speaker 6: Government, don't want them to know where they live, don't want.
Speaker 8: To, like, even if they have a whole mortgage, then's searchable. Yes,
Speaker 8: but this far right here, I don't want to do
Speaker 8: So there's that too. The other thing is now, since
Speaker 8: the census data, the way that the federal government is
Speaker 8: collecting research information.
Speaker 6: On race is changing.
Speaker 8: Yes, that is so people are about to be collapsed
Speaker 8: in one category or the other.
Speaker 6: Yes.
Speaker 7: With the indigenous community specifically, like the twenty twenty cents,
Speaker 7: you might think, oh, the Indigenous population just explodeed, but
Speaker 7: that's not true. It was people claiming an Indigenous heritage
Speaker 7: that were not necessarily acknowledged by tribal communities. And so
Speaker 7: now if you look at that, how does that inform resources?
Speaker 7: And then will that be a battle you know, over
Speaker 7: who tribal communities determined?
Speaker 1: Always been a tool, yeah, powerful, I mean it's always
Speaker 1: been a tool, right, And they they've always projected, they've
Speaker 1: never had actual lie like person to person count.
Speaker 6: I can't remember today count people who are incarcerated.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes they do. For aggregation of congressional districts where
Speaker 1: a bunch of Republicans are representing you know, fifty thousand
Speaker 1: people outside of jail and the other two hundred thousand
Speaker 1: are incarcerated in their districts. Yes, they count them, they
Speaker 1: just don't appropriate for them fully, but they do count
Speaker 1: them in those districts to create congression diship. But and
Speaker 1: I mean, Tiff, you made a point that I just
Speaker 1: want to because you and I have privately talked about this.
Speaker 1: A lot of folks celebrate the browning of America, and
Speaker 1: I'm not one who doesn't celebrate it. I just don't
Speaker 1: believe that it it it leads to a specific political outcome.
Speaker 1: I don't think that it means that all black and
Speaker 1: brown people then get together, harmonized and are like, we're
Speaker 1: the majority now. I don't think that's what happens.
Speaker 3: Global majority now, and it's not happening.
Speaker 1: So get back to my original hypotheses around power, is
Speaker 1: that these alliances are going to come together around how
Speaker 1: you piece together enough people to make the ruling class.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and then it will act just as the pavious
Speaker 7: ruling class.
Speaker 1: It will act to protect itself, and it will not
Speaker 1: only act to protect itself, it will act to ensure
Speaker 1: that you're never going to threaten it. So then the
Speaker 1: tools of the weapons of government, governance and everything that
Speaker 1: is that that that descends from it will be weaponized
Speaker 1: for their purposes to keep them in charge. And yes,
Speaker 1: all empires fall, very few of those empires that have
Speaker 1: fallen have predicted their fall.
Speaker 3: Right it.
Speaker 1: And my guess is, and I hate to think this way,
Speaker 1: but I believe it to be true that when this
Speaker 1: empower fall, the empires that will rise will be helmed
Speaker 1: by autocratic leaders. I think it is the simplest form
Speaker 1: of government. It is the most understood form of government,
Speaker 1: is the longest lasting form of government. Remember, democracy and
Speaker 1: the way we do it here in the US is
Speaker 1: an experiment, right, a minority amongst the community of the
Speaker 1: American It's an experiment. And there are people high and
Speaker 1: low in every hemisphere, on every continent that are championing
Speaker 1: the failure of this experiment because it threatens the longest
Speaker 1: standing tradition of governance, which is of autocratic leaders monarchies
Speaker 1: or autocrats who take power and they helmet for themselves.
Speaker 1: When we think radically about what democracy looks like, or
Speaker 1: really what power looks like, because I want to get
Speaker 1: outside of the construct there, I think differently than I think.
Speaker 1: How most people think of power is to be hoarded,
Speaker 1: to be kept. You know to be held sacred amongst
Speaker 1: a few selected people. I believe power is the gift
Speaker 1: that keeps giving. That the more you empower, frankly, the
Speaker 1: more power that is inured to you. You are then
Speaker 1: magnanimous by extending power to your neighbor, and then your
Speaker 1: neighbor to their neighbor and their neighbor, and so on
Speaker 1: and so forth. But most people don't think about power
Speaker 1: that way. That the more you spread it, the more
Speaker 1: you actually get it, the more respect, the more deference
Speaker 1: comes your way. If that's what you're in pursuit of
Speaker 1: the hoarders of it? Which is the which is? I
Speaker 1: think a very Eurocentric model of of of of defining
Speaker 1: power says that it must be tightly held between a
Speaker 1: small selective group of people or institutions, not to be
Speaker 1: shared democratically. And I think that that is what's going
Speaker 1: to help lead to our collapse, not just as a nation,
Speaker 1: I think as a people period. I don't mean to
Speaker 1: be going to ending days and ended times, but I
Speaker 1: think that that's our collapse. We're we're I'm off, I'm
Speaker 1: probably going down a rabbit hole here.
Speaker 8: It's just right in prison numbers. I started looking it
Speaker 8: up This is fascinating. If you if you if you're
Speaker 8: waiting a trial, you don't count, You're supposed to be
Speaker 8: counted in your residence, Like I didn't even really anyway, fascinating, unbelievable.
Speaker 7: I think the whole notion of power feeding off itself
Speaker 7: is like such a philosophical point that I have to
Speaker 7: sit with, like, I don't even I hadn't thought about that,
Speaker 7: you know, uh, until you said that, which again feeds
Speaker 7: into this question, what does a construction of society? Because
Speaker 7: note I'm not using the term democracy, what does a construction.
Speaker 3: Of society look like?
Speaker 1: Yeah? And that.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 7: And I can picture the audience saying, well, y'all are
Speaker 7: saying all this, but what are we supposed to do?
Speaker 3: People are looking to be led and people.
Speaker 1: Should right everybody.
Speaker 7: And people were asking that in the comments, like okay, Tiffany,
Speaker 7: what would you have us to do? And I was
Speaker 7: trying to be really clear, All I'm asking is that
Speaker 7: you care. I'm just saying that you care that the
Speaker 7: government is disappearing people and sending them the offshore torture
Speaker 7: camps because we are in that same path of destruction.
Speaker 7: I don't know what to do, Andree you were the
Speaker 7: one to you know, suggest protests. I don't know if
Speaker 7: that's the answer, you know, I think I think it takes.
Speaker 1: A lot of forms. I hope didn't immediately think that
Speaker 1: to just me and go stand on the street corner
Speaker 1: with a sign that we're protesting right now on target.
Speaker 1: I'm just keeping my money, yeah, or spending it directly
Speaker 1: with black and brown vendors or whatever. But but I
Speaker 1: actually don't think that the three of us are in
Speaker 1: any way delusion enough to think that we can produce
Speaker 1: the answer right here. I think that if we're truly
Speaker 1: talking about spreading decision making and power amongst people, a
Speaker 1: diverse range of people, then let's be in the practice
Speaker 1: of it. In fact, as we move to CTA's I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: I'll start first. I'm sorry, lady, right, but I want
Speaker 1: to invite our listeners to offer up what their radical views,
Speaker 1: and only radical by virtue of the fact that either
Speaker 1: hasn't been thought of, or maybe it was thought of
Speaker 1: the once practice and then abandoned, or you know what,
Speaker 1: you just sitting on another cloud like Tiffany and I'll
Speaker 1: be doing sometimes when they take walks, you know, philosophizing. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: making it worse here, but I want it. That's my invitation.
Speaker 1: I want to be clear about it. I want to
Speaker 1: invite our listeners to offer up. If you think the
Speaker 1: system we have right now is broken, tell me, you know,
Speaker 1: tell us how would you redesign this thing? Maybe you
Speaker 1: scraped the whole thing, and maybe you just offer up
Speaker 1: your notion of what what does a beloved community for
Speaker 1: you look like? Maybe it is top down with a
Speaker 1: singular leader. Maybe it is democracy size, where we come
Speaker 1: to consensus as a group. I don't know, but I'd
Speaker 1: love to hear your thoughts on it.
Speaker 3: I love that. I'm looking forward to reading those comments.
Speaker 7: And if we get videos and still want to remind people,
Speaker 7: please send in your videos if you want to give
Speaker 7: us sixty seconds worth of thought. And as you're doing that,
Speaker 7: don't forget to click like and subscribe and tell a
Speaker 7: friend if you like this conversation. And again, this is
Speaker 7: a conversation between us, but it's a conversation between.
Speaker 3: All of us, not just the three of us.
Speaker 7: And as you see, we definitely look read engage with
Speaker 7: you all because we say welcome home intentionally. All right,
Speaker 7: we got to pay some bills, but don't go anywhere.
Speaker 7: We'll be right back on the other side of the break.
Speaker 7: My cta I'll be quick is in my time, I'm
Speaker 7: in a space of study and observation. I'm reading, writing, listening.
Speaker 3: That's all.
Speaker 7: Anything that's taken me away from that is an inconvenience,
Speaker 7: Like from seven to seven. That is what I'm doing
Speaker 7: in a space of learning. And I've always been in
Speaker 7: that way, but this is even more radical. I'm not
Speaker 7: watching a lot of TV these days, you know, like
Speaker 7: I am in these books, in all my computer writing
Speaker 7: and listening to people, and it has really elevated my
Speaker 7: way of thinking, elevated the way I interact harness my
Speaker 7: energy in a way. And one thing I thought about
Speaker 7: is as we are all getting older, we're losing a
Speaker 7: lot of our history. And so my CTA for people
Speaker 7: is for those of you who are still blessed to
Speaker 7: have your grandmother, your great grandmother, the elders in your life.
Speaker 3: Capture that oral history.
Speaker 7: Fit with them, listen to them, talk to them, get
Speaker 7: them on video, because as they're erasing our history, I
Speaker 7: think it's important for us to capture ours and know
Speaker 7: it and be shamans to the next generation. Tell them
Speaker 7: what happened during Jim, Tell them what happened in enslavement.
Speaker 7: Tell them in the Pan Africanism way, what we brought
Speaker 7: with us on the boat, what life existed like us
Speaker 7: before then. And I hope that people take advantage of
Speaker 7: that time to listen and learn, because even if you're
Speaker 7: in the if you if you don't have those people
Speaker 7: when you're in Uber like instead of being on your
Speaker 7: phone like talk to I spend so many time asking
Speaker 7: Uber drivers, Oh, you're from India, what do the people
Speaker 7: there feel about Modi? Like, tell me what? Because I
Speaker 7: can read in the paper all day, but you live there.
Speaker 7: Tell me what are your thoughts about Modi? What is
Speaker 7: your family's thoughts about Modi? People who live in Pakistan,
Speaker 7: I'm like, oh, what is your thoughts about India? You know,
Speaker 7: you guys are kind of in a war right now,
Speaker 7: and I get so much information from people, So I
Speaker 7: just would encourage other folks be in a space of quiet,
Speaker 7: listening and learning. I don't enjoy jumping out there giving
Speaker 7: my thoughts and opinions on everything. Every five seconds, CNN
Speaker 7: will ask me to come on and do stuff, and.
Speaker 3: I just want to be quiet and listen.
Speaker 7: Sometimes I don't need to jump and give a SoundBite
Speaker 7: on everything.
Speaker 3: So that's my CTA.
Speaker 7: And if you do capture some of that oral history
Speaker 7: and you got sixty seconds of some good stuff from
Speaker 7: your grandma, we'll play that too.
Speaker 3: We want to hear it.
Speaker 1: That's your sound bus is so good. It's just so Angela.
Speaker 8: Speaking of soundbites, I am really tired of us talking
Speaker 8: to each other, So I want y'all to send in
Speaker 8: your guest recommendations. We want to hear from other voices
Speaker 8: to me. In our recent history, some of our favorite
Speaker 8: shows have been with guests on air because it gives
Speaker 8: us an opportunity to engage in different ways, with different voices,
Speaker 8: different perspectives. We also are going to continue I think
Speaker 8: this series at least as a segment around democracy being
Speaker 8: broken in the different pieces that are fragmented. So we
Speaker 8: definitely want to hear from y'all on that as well,
Speaker 8: whether you're seeing it on the local level, the state
Speaker 8: level in your communities, or on the federal level or
Speaker 8: even internationally. We want to hear that from y'all too.
Speaker 8: And last tip already shouted out, but we will be
Speaker 8: in Jackson this weekend, and we hope to see y'all
Speaker 8: live at Tugalu College at one pm and of course
Speaker 8: supports State of the People Friday there as well as
Speaker 8: on Saturday, and we want to have guests on in
Speaker 8: Jackson as well. I'm sad won't be there, but hopefully
Speaker 8: we'll be able to see some of our other friends
Speaker 8: and have them on with us.
Speaker 6: So we'll see y'all there. We look forward to catching
Speaker 6: up with our.
Speaker 1: He's next visit.
Speaker 6: I don't know why you want to go to the
Speaker 6: rural south. Diff what utopia? Ukre said, I got one already,
Speaker 6: she said, that's name.
Speaker 7: Well, I appreciate his thoughts and Mayor of Jackson, and
Speaker 7: I didn't know that he wasn't going to be there,
Speaker 7: so I'm sorry to miss him because he's doing some
Speaker 7: great work there.
Speaker 1: And there's your favorite food spots.
Speaker 7: Yes we like to eat, Yes, definitely for sure looking
Speaker 7: forward to and.
Speaker 1: Jackson did o dido diddo. And we want to thank
Speaker 1: you again for just bearing with us. I think today
Speaker 1: was we haven't done this in a long time, but
Speaker 1: the just the thinking out loud, the recognizing that we
Speaker 1: don't have the monopoly on right answers, actually rarely do we,
Speaker 1: but but in good company with good intention, I think
Speaker 1: we can explore all kinds of things, certainly in a
Speaker 1: space of trust, and we want to invite you in there,
Speaker 1: so don't forget to send your ideas. We'll be doing
Speaker 1: a live show, as it has already been mentioned. State
Speaker 1: of the People tour in Jackson said hey, this Saturday,
Speaker 1: May thirty. First, y'all be there. If you're in Jackson,
Speaker 1: visit State of Thepeople dot com to get a ticket.
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry State.
Speaker 8: The State of THEPPL dot com and you don't get tickets,
Speaker 8: you just register.
Speaker 6: I don't want people to think I was.
Speaker 1: Just reading my note. My bad, but listen to her.
Speaker 1: She is in charge. It's no no, no fee. You
Speaker 1: just come as reparations. That's it. We'll be live streaming
Speaker 1: on YouTube, by the way, on Saturday, so if you
Speaker 1: can't be there with us in person, check us out
Speaker 1: on YouTube and you'll be able to join in the conversation.
Speaker 1: Will also be of course uploading the feed in case
Speaker 1: you can't catch us live, so you'll get to see
Speaker 1: it too. Angela Tiffany, I'm looking forward to being a
Speaker 1: good company and good trouble with you all this weekend.
Speaker 1: As always, we want to remind everyone to leave a review,
Speaker 1: subscribe to Native lanmdpod, and also tell a friend. We're
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