WEBVTT - From the Vault: The Eltanin Antenna 0:00:06.360 --> 0:00:09.040 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. It's Saturday, 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:11.360 so once more we have a VAULD episode for you. 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:14.800 It is the L ten and Antenna from eight ten, 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:17.960 twenty twenty three. That's the original publication date. This is 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:20.520 the first of three episodes where we got into looking 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:25.560 at the basic some of the out there ideas that 0:00:25.640 --> 0:00:30.680 emerge in response to lo fi imagery and you know, 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:33.680 legitimate mysteries about what's going on in some of the 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:37.560 harder to reach places in our world or even beyond 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:39.879 our world. So without further ado, let's jump right in. 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:47.400 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:55.400 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:56.040 is Robert. 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:59.639 Lamb, and I am Joe McCormick. And oh boy, I'm 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:04.360 excited because it's anomalist historical photograph Day on Stuff to 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:08.080 Blow your Mind. Today we are going to be talking 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:13.840 about a moderately famous underwater image that has been classified 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:18.240 by some as an anomaly. Now, I think it's debatable 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:21.959 whether the word anomaly could or should still be applied 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:26.399 to it, because I guess normally anomaly is defined as 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:30.600 something that is different from what is normal or expected 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:33.000 or at least appears to be different from what is 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:35.399 normal or expected. I don't know if you can still 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:37.760 apply that to a photo that you pretty much have 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:42.319 conclusively identified and sorted into the mundane category now but 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:45.920 still looks weird. Maybe we can adjudicate that later in 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:50.480 the episode. But anyway, one thing that is interesting about 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:54.600 anomalist photographs in our culture is that the anomaly kind 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:58.920 of has a secondary definition beyond just something that is 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:01.560 or appears to be different from what is normal or expected, 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:05.240 and that secondary definition is proof of aliens confirmed. 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:09.799 Yes, yeah, this is a this is a topic we've 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:12.560 we've touched on a little bit before. I mean, things 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:16.920 have come up, like, you know, supposed ancient etchings or 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:21.360 carvings of dinosaurs. I remember we did at least in 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:23.560 that one episode on that in the past. And then 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:27.680 you can also apply this to things like photographs of bigfoot, 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:31.239 photographs of strange lights in the sky, and so forth. 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:35.359 And granted, especially in those two categories, you often get 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:38.280 into situations where there is often a strong case to 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:42.400 be made for intentional fakery on top of all the 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:44.360 other things that can be going on with a photograph, 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:50.320 you know, actual photographic anomalies, atmospheric anomalies, and so forth. 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:56.160 Today's episode deals with an image that is not a 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:59.960 work of fakery. It is an actual image that was 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:06.320 gathered through scientific exploration. But without proper expertise, you can 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:10.639 easily see well, basically anything you want out of it. 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:17.360 You know, the thing about an anomaly like this quote 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:22.240 unquote is that, yeah, whatever your preconceived notions happen to be, 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:27.200 you can easily attach them to this thing, especially if 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:29.400 you don't have that expertise and you don't have that 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:32.800 sort of I don't know, general open mindedness about what 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:34.119 it might be. Right. 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:36.320 This is one of many cases where if you don't 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:40.840 have the requisite contextual knowledge, something that is initially just 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:44.280 a weird looking photograph can take on all kinds of significance, 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:47.680 and in fact that there has been a historical mythology 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:50.240 built around this one weird photo we're going to talk 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:53.200 about today. But I think before we get into the 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:58.280 photo we're talking about in today's episode, since this is 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:01.320 going to touch on the the idea of proof of 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:06.160 aliens confirmed and UFO lore and all that, I feel 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:08.960 like it's fair to sort of just announce where we're 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:11.119 coming from. We've talked about this somewhat on the show before, 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:13.960 and we've actually gotten some recent listener mail where people 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:17.040 were asking us to address the recent news about so 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:21.599 called UFO disclosures, So to do that at the top, Rob, 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:23.039 I don't want to speak for you, but I think 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:25.440 we're probably on roughly the same page here. You can 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:30.000 correct me if I'm wrong. Despite the recent flurry of excitement, 0:04:30.080 --> 0:04:32.680 and if you haven't kept up with it, the short 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:36.400 version is there was recently whistleblower testimony in front of 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:40.440 a House Oversight subcommittee in the US Congress from a 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:44.400 man who claims that people have told him that the 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:48.080 US government knows aliens exist and we are in possession 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:51.840 of crash spacecraft and alien bodies, etc. There is no 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:55.640 hard evidence publicly available, he's saying people told him this. 0:04:56.839 --> 0:05:01.480 So despite the excited media coverage about this, my personal 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:06.000 position remains basically unchanged. And I would characterize that as 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:10.120 regarding the topic of alien contact or alien visitation of 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:17.280 Earth with curiosity and open mindedness, but strong skepticism. 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:19.880 Yeah yeah, and I do want to drive home it's 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:22.159 perfectly all right to be excited by all of this. 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:25.719 I mean, the idea that somebody's testifying about this in 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:29.359 front of the House Oversight Subcommittee is pretty exciting, and 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:32.080 he's saying some pretty exciting things and you can't help 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:36.400 but ask, well, if true, what does that mean? And 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:40.200 raises a lot of questions. But but yeah, I think 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:45.080 there are some legitimate questions to be raised before you 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:48.640 really take all that to the bank. And plus, as 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:50.960 we've talked about on the show before, the idea of 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:53.840 alien life, it's a complex question. You know, the deeper 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:56.320 you go, there's obviously a big difference between saying yes, 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:59.120 I think there is something else alive in the universe 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:01.840 and say saying yes, I think there are other life forms. 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:05.480 They're technologically advanced, they have spaceships, and they have visited us, 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:09.000 and oh, some of our secret at advanced technology today 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:12.440 is based on things that we were able to pilfer 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:15.320 from their crashes. So like, is their life? Is there 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:19.320 intelligent life? To paraphrase Arthur C. Clark, Any answer to 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:21.480 any such question I think is equally mind blowing. 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:24.599 Right, that's right, And I think it's very good to 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:28.360 disentangle those two questions. One the question of whether aliens 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:31.840 exist at all somewhere out there on that question, I 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:35.679 think we just don't have enough information to decide, so there, 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:38.840 I don't even really lean one way or another on 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:42.240 that as of today. I think it's just totally open question, 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:44.200 not enough information to judge. 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:47.279 Yeah, I mean there you could basically say, well, there is, 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:49.680 there isn't. And to get more directly to the Arthur C. 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:55.120 Clark quote about this, like either answer is just absolutely 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:57.880 stunning to say that we are completely alone in the universe, 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:01.560 that we are the anomaly, are planet of life or 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:03.720 to say, oh, yeah, there is somewhere out there, there 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:05.800 is a planet of life, and it may be just 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:09.600 so far from us, so far from us. That also 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:14.240 questions of when become complex to think about. But yeah, 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:16.440 it could be out there and we will simply never 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:18.880 know about it, and it will never know about us, 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:20.640 you know. I mean, it's all this is just mind 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:21.920 blowing to contemplate. 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.560 But while I think alien existence overall is a totally 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:29.520 open question, visitation is a question where I guess my 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:32.800 standards are a little bit different, and I do start 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:36.320 to have a lean on that question. I will say 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:38.600 I'm not one of those people who thinks it's like 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:42.520 gross or shameful to even investigate the idea of alien 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:48.560 contact on Earth, like I sometimes see skeptical scientists like 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:52.480 getting angry about like Avi Lo coming out in the 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:55.400 news and saying, Oh, I'm combing the seafloor looking for 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:58.680 metal spheres to run tests on them, and I think 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:02.480 maybe they're aliens. I understand their frustration with him sort 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:05.720 of maybe jumping the gun on the conclusion and over 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:08.720 hyping results to say I think there are aliens. But 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:11.360 I mean, I think it's fine to investigate if that 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:14.120 interests you, as long as you are objective about what 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:18.040 you find and you don't misrepresent or overhype in conclusive 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:21.200 results to the media, which I think is a legitimate 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:23.120 thing to get kind of annoyed about. And that is 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:25.080 the main thing that I think a lot of skeptics 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:27.240 find annoying about that sort of project. 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:30.120 It is kind of interesting that if a scientist is 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:34.080 talking about putting like shrimp on a treadmill or something 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:37.520 to that effect or of that sort of nature, there's 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:41.200 always the follow up question, Oh, have you said you 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:44.280 have you solved the problem of cancer? Yet? Have you 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:47.160 have you? I guess you've you've you've tackled all of 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:50.640 these other big scientific problems. But generally I don't hear 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:57.200 that criticism leveled at UFO scientists and so forth. They're 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:59.880 not like, well, wait, why are you not curing can 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.240 So why are you looking for UFOs? I don't know. 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:05.000 You can interpret that how you wish. 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:06.800 Well, that is interesting. I mean, I guess I would 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:11.720 say scientifically, and looking for evidence of alien visitation of 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:14.120 Earth is like a kind of a high risk, high 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:17.400 reward strategy. It's sort of a gambit. It's like you, 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:21.120 I mean, here, I'm speaking with you know my personal opinion, 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:25.000 I'd say you are very very likely wasting your time, 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:27.880 but on the off chance you're not, you will make 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:30.040 the most important discovery in human history. 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:33.120 True. Yeah, So it's a it's a big gamble. It's like, 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:35.560 you know, it's the Latto, right, you know that the 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:39.040 odds are just astronomical, but the prize is enormous, So 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:41.000 you go ahead and you buy your ticket and you 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:41.680 scratch it off. 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:44.760 But anyway, but coming back to the question of like 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:48.120 evidence for alien visitation, I would be you know, I'm 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:50.840 not like somebody who doesn't want to find out about this. 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:53.720 I would be extremely interested and excited if there were 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:56.280 any good reason to believe aliens ever came to Earth. 0:09:56.840 --> 0:10:00.600 But I have been interested in this topic and never 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:04.679 seen evidence that was even close to convincing. And furthermore, 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:08.239 what I have seen is like a pattern of behavior, 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:13.479 a pattern of behavior from alien contact advocates of presenting 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:17.960 bad evidence as good or promising that there is good 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:21.520 evidence somewhere else, maybe being hidden from you, maybe soon 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:24.360 to be revealed, and you'd be really convinced if you 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:27.560 saw that, but for some reason you can't. And so 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:32.440 that pattern of behavior, I would say, has conditioned me, 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:36.120 like it puts my guard up about any explosive claims 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:39.280 on this subject, even if they're being listened to by Congress. 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:43.160 So you know, at this point, I'm I'm still I 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:46.120 would say, I am still waiting for good evidence, and 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:49.640 I reserve judgment until good evidence actually shows up. That 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:52.040 you know, like that people can look at. 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:55.760 I like how you're always up for the possibility. For me, 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:58.000 if I'm being honest, there's some weeks where I'm like, 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:01.760 this is not a good week, y'all. If we are 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:05.199 going to discover that the alien visitations have been occurring 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:08.440 and there's like definite proof that I just would prefer 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:11.320 that it happened like maybe next month, because I've got 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:12.360 a lot going on right now. 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:15.199 Well, that's a good point, i'd say. Also, yeah, there 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.120 are some weeks I'm more ready to meet the Grays 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:18.839 than other ones. 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:20.880 Now, one thing I want to stress is, you know 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:23.600 we're talking about here is the sort of questing for 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.880 objective evidence, and how often there is a lack of 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:30.400 objective evidence here. And I do want to stress something 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:35.960 that we've touched on before regarding subjective experiences. Subjective paranormal 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:39.320 experiences are certainly real to those who experience them, and 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:41.840 they can clearly be life changing in a number of ways. 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:43.920 So you know, you or people you know may have 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:46.600 had these experiences. You may have seen something you couldn't 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:50.679 completely explain. And as humans, we've always had such experiences, 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:53.920 and we can apply skepticism and scientific logic to why 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:58.240 these experiences occurred. You know, in short, supernatural or the 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:02.200 other worldly explanations are rarely necessary, but we so have 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:05.800 to acknowledge the impact of the experience, right. 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:08.200 And this is a thing that I think makes the 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:10.800 UFO subjects kind of difficult because a lot of people 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:15.040 who are very devoted to belief in UFOs have in 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:17.640 some sense had like an experience of their own or 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:20.880 they think, you know, they're like personally connected to this subject, 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:23.400 and so it's very important to stress that, like, while 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:26.440 you've got to keep your skeptical standards of evidence up 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:29.200 when you're actually saying have aliens really been here? You know, 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:31.360 you want to have a high standard of evidence, but 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:33.480 at the same time be sensitive to people and say, 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:36.560 like us, looking for that standard of evidence is not 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:40.560 a personal critique of you as a person having had 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:43.560 an experience. You know, it is very common for people 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:46.319 to have strange experiences that they don't know how to explain. 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:50.560 And it's even if maybe aliens are not the best 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:54.840 actual explanation according to the evidence we have, it's not 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:58.200 unreasonable that some people would I don't know, seek an 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.000 explanation of that sort when they've had a very powerful, 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:02.440 unexplainable experience. 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:05.720 Right, something you can't explain happens. You look for answers. 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:07.720 You also look for patterns in the world around you. 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:10.120 But as you look for answers, you also encounter pre 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:12.560 existing scripts to try and make sense of what that was. 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:15.160 And if it's lights in the sky, well there are 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:18.680 a few ready made scripts that are probably the easiest 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:21.439 to absorb, that have like social support. Some of them 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:27.160 are religious, some of them do relate to things like space, aliens, 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:28.880 and so forth, and so it makes sense that you 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:31.120 would latch onto those to make sense of what happened 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:34.440 to you. And yeah, then you go out into the world, 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:36.600 you look for patterns, you look for supporting information. 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:39.480 Now here's where we're going to start moving back toward 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:43.280 our anomalist photo of the day, or supposedly anomalous photo 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:46.000 of the day. There is a counter to everything we've 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:50.200 been saying so far, which is sometimes people will say, well, okay, 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:53.120 maybe you're not impressed with everything you've seen so far, 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:57.320 but what about this photo of a triangular arrangement of lights, 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:02.720 or this video of a white object moving across the sky, 0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:05.920 or this object on the seafloor that looks like a 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:09.640 piece of alien radar equipment, etc. There are a lot 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:12.679 of pieces of media out there, a lot of photo 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:16.199 and video and sometimes sound recording and stuff where people 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:19.560 can say this looks weird or this sounds weird. I 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.360 can't think of anything that I know of on Earth 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:25.800 that would produce an image like this, so shouldn't all 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:29.680 of that stuff count as evidence of aliens? And this 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:32.840 brings me to a concept that I've been thinking about 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:37.600 recently that is really just based on an offhand phrase 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:41.640 I heard when I honestly don't remember exactly which interview 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:43.240 this came from, but I was listening to a series 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:47.960 of interviews with a science writer and skeptical UFO researcher 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:53.040 named Mick West. West He's written articles for skeptical publications 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:56.640 about all kinds of subjects, written about kim trails and 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:59.240 things like that, but also about UFOs of late, and 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:05.240 has done analysis of popular UFO or UAP videos to 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:07.480 try to figure out if you can actually identify what 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:09.760 is it we're looking at in this video, where's some 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:12.680 kind of weird object appears to move across the sky, 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:15.880 and in many cases he is able to identify. In 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:19.160 some cases he's not. And so I apologize if I'm 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:22.920 not using West's exact preferred terminology here, but this is 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:25.640 just what I heard him say offhand in one moment, 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:28.960 and it was the idea of something called the low 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:33.480 information zone. I think maybe another way to think about 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:36.040 the same idea would be to call it the zone 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:41.160 of low resolution, with low resolution referring in the specific 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:45.280 sense to photographs and other attempts at imaging that produce 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:49.480 a blurry or fuzzy or indistinct product, but also to 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:52.360 think about low resolution in a broader sense, where it 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:56.880 would refer to records or pieces of media or accounts, 0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:01.920 any type of evidence that contain lower desirable ratios of 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:06.920 identifying detail and are generally lacking in context and clarity. 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:10.520 I think this concept is really useful when talking about 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:15.480 UFOs or UAPs, where it seems to me West's sort 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:20.520 of generalization is that all of the pieces of evidence 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:24.160 for aliens or other non human intelligence making contact on 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:28.520 Earth that remain somewhat interesting or still seem kind of 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:33.480 unsolved or viable, tend to exist in this zone of 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:37.800 low information or low resolution, where there's a lot of vagueness, 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:42.320 lack of verifiable detail, or lack of context. Essentially, there's 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:47.080 not enough information in them that a reasonable observer can 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:50.800 be confident that they understand what they're looking at. Meanwhile, 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:54.440 when there is evidence in the sort of high information zone, 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:57.520 say when there's like really good video that's in focus 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:01.720 and has proper foreground background for scale, and has a 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:04.879 lot of information in it. It seems like it's specifically 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:08.480 those cases that are more likely to turn out to 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:13.879 have provable, clear, identifiable, mundane explanations. These turn out to 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:19.120 be plastic bags or balloons or airplanes or stars or 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:22.920 well known digital artifacts produced by cameras and other types 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:23.600 of sensors. 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:27.800 Yeah, this is also where intentional fakery tends to come 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:28.400 out as well. 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:31.879 Oh yeah, And I thought this was interesting because I 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:34.439 do not at all want to represent myself as a 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:37.439 UFO expert. I'm not in any way, but it just 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:40.320 sort of squares with my experience as a generalist like 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:46.400 researching extremely variegated, supposedly anomalous phenomena throughout history. We've covered 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:48.520 a lot of subjects like this on the show at 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:51.560 some point, especially with things that have been claimed as 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:54.800 proof of aliens or proof of the supernatural or whatever. 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:58.600 It seems it's very often in the cases where information 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:03.720 quality is high that you're most likely to nail down 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:07.439 an alternative explanation to figure out, ah, here's what's going on. 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:11.399 It does have an explanation, the explanation is mundane or 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:14.399 within the range of known causes and so forth, and 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:17.399 it's in cases where the information quality is very low, 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:22.720 where details are vague or uncheckable, where crucial context is missing, 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:25.320 and so forth, that you end up having to shrug 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:27.520 your shoulders and say, I don't know what we're looking at. 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:29.199 I don't know what this is, don't know what the 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:33.320 explanation is. And in that case, if a UFO enthusiast 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:36.600 is so inclined, they could say, ah, you don't know 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:39.119 what it is. Therefore proof of aliens confirmed. 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:41.840 Yeah, this reminds me too of you know, you can 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:48.200 also look at various signals that have been it seemed 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:51.840 to be observed, you know, coming from elsewhere in the cosmos, 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:55.120 sounds that have been recorded coming from the deep ocean, 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:58.200 things where you know, there's some there are some definitely 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:04.280 some strong hypops He's regarding these various anomalies. But at 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:05.879 the end of the day, can you one hundred percent 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:09.679 say what it is? Well, not necessarily, and therefore the 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:14.240 window is left cracked at least a little bit, maybe 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:18.840 cracked a lot further open, depending on your willingness to 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:23.160 interpret it a certain way. But it remains open somewhat 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:26.479 to some of these more far fetched explanations and then 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:28.360 you can go the extra mile and say, oh, well, 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:30.440 prove to me that the bloop is not the sound 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:32.440 of mighty Cuthule rising in the deep. 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:46.240 Yeah, elder gods. Disprove or accept. So I guess the 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:50.360 question from a reasoning standpoint is if you accept, and 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:53.440 I think most people will probably recognize this at some level, 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:55.359 you be kind of familiar with this, even beyond like 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:57.919 UFOs and stuff. This is just kind of true in life. 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:02.480 If you accept this pattern is generally true that evidence 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:05.160 one could hold up as viable in terms of proving 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:09.080 something weird. A weird explanation tends to exist in the 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:13.160 low information zone, whereas evidence in the high information zone 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:17.560 is very likely to end up pointing to a mundane explanation. 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:22.240 Should this pattern itself influence how you think about evidence 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:25.920 of alien life, I would say personally, I don't think 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:28.639 it should bias at all your starting assumptions about whether 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:32.480 aliens exist, because, as we said again early on, that's 0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:35.600 that's just like not really within our search space for 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:39.560 evidence at least so far, so open question there. But 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:44.560 I think it probably should increase your resistance to putting 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:49.359 apparently anomalous but low information observations into the could be 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:54.000 alien's basket because you know this pattern exists. There's lots 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:57.960 of stuff like this. There are many analogies. But usually 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:00.760 the higher you are able to to turn up the 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:03.919 resolution on what you're looking at, the more information you 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:07.160 can add, the more context you can get, the more 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:10.639 you know, the sharper you can make the contours of 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:13.920 the image itself, the less likely it is that aliens 0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:16.040 are going to seem like a good explanation, and the 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:18.720 more likely you are to be like, oh, that's a 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:22.919 plastic bag, or like oh, that's a recognizable animal. And 0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:25.840 I think maybe that'll bring us to the case today, 0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:30.200 a case of an underwater photograph that has been dubbed 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:34.840 the el tannin antenna, or maybe if we don't think 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:36.879 it's an antenna in the end, should we call it 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:38.480 like the eltannan object. 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:42.040 Ah, yeah, that's fair. I have wondered, if everyone keeps 0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:44.199 calling it the el tann and antenna, why not just 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:46.720 call it the altena. It seems like that like the 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:50.760 natural direction to go in. But yeah, the this is 0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:53.080 going to be a good one to discuss because it 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:57.880 is a thing that an image that that was completely 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:04.400 embraced by ufaist and sort of paranormal interpretations, and continues 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:07.800 to be held up in many circles as being this 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:11.520 kind of icon of the paranormal in proof of something, 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:15.040 you know what that's something is depending on your exact 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:18.280 case that you're making for like the secret nature of reality, 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:22.440 and yet at the same time we know exactly what 0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:27.120 it is. I mean, experts who know their way around 0:22:27.400 --> 0:22:30.520 deep sea organisms and the sorts of things you'd expect 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:34.879 to find in the deep ocean do not seem to 0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:36.400 have had any They don't seem like they've had any 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:39.639 doubts about this for a number of decades. In fact, 0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:43.760 it's not that long after the image was taken that 0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:46.920 we have a pretty solid and convincing answer that everyone 0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:52.080 seems to be satisfied with outside of the paranormal investigation world. 0:22:52.920 --> 0:22:55.560 Yes, I would say to be as fair as possible 0:22:55.680 --> 0:22:59.919 to the people who want a paranormal or alien explanation. 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:03.760 And you can't know for sure what it is because 0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:05.879 like you can't go back and check it, Like this 0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:08.600 was a sort of transient phenomenon somewhere in the bottom 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:10.600 of the ocean, so we can't go back to the 0:23:10.760 --> 0:23:13.919 exact spot and say, oh, is it still there? And 0:23:14.000 --> 0:23:16.800 check it? But I'd say ninety nine point nine percent 0:23:16.800 --> 0:23:19.600 sure we know what it was. There's something else that 0:23:19.800 --> 0:23:23.200