1 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: Audiences love a good mystery, both on and off screen, 2 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: whether it's a classic Alfred Hitchcock film like Vertigo, or 3 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 1: fans using social media to piece together the rumors of 4 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: drama between the cast. But there are lesser known Hollywood mysteries, 5 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: like what Happens to All the Lost Scripts? Those episodes 6 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: of TV shows or feature film scripts that were written 7 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: but never made lost to time. There were two episodes 8 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: of Seinfeld that were written and then scrapped for being 9 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: too controversial, which feels very Larry David On the big screen. 10 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: The film Justice League Mortal was canceled after suffering production 11 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,639 Speaker 1: issues and the two thousand and eight Writers Strike. Some 12 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: lost scripts pop up years later online, but most never do. 13 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: There's one lost Hollywood script that stands out. It was 14 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: an episode of The Wonder Years, a half hour comedy 15 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: on ABC broadcast in the eighties and nineties. It captured 16 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: the suburban lie life of a teenage boy set in 17 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: the cultural ships of the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies. 18 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: The Lost Wonder Year's episode was written by none other 19 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: than David Chase, as in the creator of The Sopranos. 20 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: You know that little show about Italian American mafia life 21 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: in the New Jersey suburbs that changed the course of 22 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: television history. Yeah. Him. The Wonder Year's producer Ken Tapolski 23 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: once confided to The Wall Street Journal that David Chase's 24 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 1: script was quote phenomenal, one of the best end quote, 25 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: but some element in the plot was too intense for 26 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: the show. It took the show in a darker direction. 27 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: No big surprise there, it was David Chase. But what 28 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: exactly was that darker direction? Why was David Chase's episode 29 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 1: so edgy that it never aired on TV? Did a 30 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: schoolteacher get whacked for a gambling dead It's been over 31 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: thirty years since he first wrote the script. We set 32 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: out on a quest to find this long lost David 33 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: Chase Wonder Year script, and what better place to start 34 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: looking with the man himself. Welcome to our very special 35 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: episodes Detective Case Operation Chasing the Wonder Years, The Conversation 36 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: with David Chase. Welcome back. 37 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 2: He is Aaron Burnette, She's Danis Schwartz. Hey, Hey, I'm 38 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 2: Jason English, and I want to address right at the 39 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 2: top that we had an opportunity to spend some time 40 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 2: with David Chase. One of the most celebrated people in 41 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 2: the history of television. We could have asked him about 42 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 2: any episode he's ever written, and we decided forget the 43 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 2: Sopranos finale. We want to talk about The Wonder Years. 44 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:52,519 Speaker 1: Yes, love that call. 45 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 3: I mean, David Chase is like truly the inspiration like 46 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 3: I do screenwriting, I work in TV. He is just 47 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 3: like such a genius, such inspiration. This episode was so 48 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 3: so exciting for. 49 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: Me, totally for a guy to be able to do 50 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: comedy and darkness and then like sentimentality so well, and 51 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: you never feel that it's too violent or the comedy 52 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: is errant, or it's like sentimentality that is unearned. You're right. 53 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: He is the triangle of screenwriting. 54 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 3: He's so funny and so smart, and now we're like, 55 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 3: there's a lost episode. I want to know everything. 56 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 1: Let's take you back to the early nineteen nineties, right 57 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: around the time that David Chase was asked to write 58 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: The Wonder Year's episode. At that moment, he was an 59 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: established television writer working toward his dream of making movies. 60 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 4: Here's the thing. I took these development deals with studio 61 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 4: so that I would earn an income while I was 62 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 4: trying to break into movies. 63 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: At the time, David was knee deep in projects. 64 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 4: What was kind of going on around in ninety one 65 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 4: ninety two was I'll fly away in order to exposure 66 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 4: to rock for Files. That's what was going on, and. 67 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: For the course of David's career, he had proven himself 68 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: to be a writer who could write for a wide 69 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: range of shows. He won the Outstanding Drama Series Emmy 70 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy eight for The Rockford Files, a show 71 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: about an ex convict turn private eye named Jim Rockford, 72 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: which he later adapted into television movies. At first a 73 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: writer and later the showrunner for the last two seasons 74 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 1: of the critically acclaimed hit Northern Exposure, David Chase experimented 75 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 1: with the mix of smart, combative dialogue and a dream 76 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:26,600 Speaker 1: inflected reality that would later become a hallmark of The Sopranos. 77 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: David's early Emmy success in later success with Northern Exposure 78 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: made him a highly desirable writer, and he bounced around 79 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: Hollywood working on both drama and comedy series. A common 80 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,919 Speaker 1: theme in David's work is that he doesn't shy away 81 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 1: from writing about the complexities of society, whether he's writing 82 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: present day storylines or diving into the harsh realities of 83 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: the past. In the nineteen ninety three drama All Fly Away, 84 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: David wrote about race relations in the nineteen fifties and 85 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, but through the lens of a black housekeeper 86 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: and single mother named Lily Harper and the family of 87 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: the white district attorney she worked for. Joining the final 88 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: season of The Wonder Years would mean returning once more 89 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: to these same historical complexities. 90 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 4: A gentleman named Bob Brush, who was I believe the 91 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 4: executive producer. He had a Corvette. I remember that, and 92 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 4: I was jealous. It was Bob Brush reached out to me. 93 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: Bob Brush was the Wonder Years executive producer who took 94 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: over as showrunner from the series creators Neil Marlins and 95 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:27,119 Speaker 1: Carol Black. 96 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 4: I had never really seen the show, and I didn't 97 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 4: watch it afterward. 98 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 1: Even though David hadn't seen the series, he had lived 99 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,239 Speaker 1: through the time period it takes place in. The Wonder 100 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: Years is set during the massive social upheaval of the 101 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: idyllic post World War Two era of America. The show 102 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 1: follows Kevin Arnold, a teenage boy of the Baby Bloomer 103 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 1: generation audiences experienced his life in the suburbs during this 104 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 1: tumultuous late sixties and early seventies, when many Americans thought 105 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 1: the country was coming apart at the seams. It's also 106 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: a sweet coming of age comedy, one that doesn't shy 107 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: away from its heavier themes. Whatever was going on in 108 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: the broader world bled into the character's adolescent lives as 109 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: they navigate everything the teenagers face, friends, puberty, first loves, 110 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: and family dynamics. The sixth season of The Wonder Years 111 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 1: took place in the year nineteen seventy three. At that time, 112 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 1: during the end of the Nixon Years, both America and 113 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: the world were changing drastically. There was the sexual Revolution, 114 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: the rise of Eastern spirituality, the creation of suburbs and supermarkets, 115 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: as well as the semi liberation of women. Housewives became 116 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: professional secretaries became bosses. Of course, there were also the drugs, 117 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: which became a driver of the culture. The Vietnam War 118 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: was still going on, the Civil rights movement was still 119 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,359 Speaker 1: actively creating a more equitable America. All of this was 120 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: the backdrop of The Wonder Years. Heading into the show's 121 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: final season, Kevin Arnold was now sixteen years old, which 122 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 1: means naturally he was experiencing more adolescent changes. The creators 123 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: wanted to accurately reflect both Kevin's inner growth and external 124 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: changes set against these starker complexities of the world. To 125 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: lead the show in a different direction, the producers turned 126 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: to David Chase. 127 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 4: I mean I thought it was great. I mean Bob 128 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 4: Brush telling me, you know, we want to get a 129 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 4: little bit asier. 130 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:23,119 Speaker 1: David had developed a reputation for writing edgy television scripts. 131 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 4: Well. I had won an Emmy and the Writer's Guild 132 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 4: Award all in the same year for a TV movie 133 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 4: that I wrote called Off the Minnesota Strip The Mari 134 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 4: Winning Head and she played a young high school student 135 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 4: from Minnesota who got pimped out in Minnesota and then 136 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 4: the pimp took her to New York and she was 137 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 4: on seventh five Anue walking the street. So the story 138 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 4: was this girl who had spent six months on seventh 139 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 4: Abu or Athama and I forget, which comes back to 140 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 4: her small town and tries to fit in. There was 141 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:06,559 Speaker 4: a lot of vagre. There was more edgetunes usually found 142 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 4: in network shows. Yeah, I suppose it was that, and 143 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 4: maybe they had seen Almost Grown Too, which also had 144 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 4: a lot of dab. 145 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: Almost Grown was a drama series David co created that 146 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: centered on flashbacks in the nineteen sixties. Revisiting life in 147 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: the sixties became a recurring theme in his work. For instance, 148 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: his first movie, his directorial debut, Not Fade Away, was 149 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: said in the sixties, back when David Chase was a team. 150 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 1: The film tells the story of a New Jersey boy 151 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 1: obsessed with Bob Dylan and eager to start his own band, 152 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: just like the Rolling Stones. When David finished his Wonder 153 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: Year's episode, the producers read it and then chose not 154 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: to pursue the darker path he'd set out for Kevin Arney. 155 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: Why the Wonder Year's producer Ken de Topolskin told The 156 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal that David's episode involved hard drug use 157 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:59,319 Speaker 1: and would have jarred the show's audience. How exactly was 158 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: the use of hard drugs infused into this family comedy? 159 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: Was Kevin Arnold tripping on acid in a hippie commune? 160 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: Did he accidentally get slipped some angel dust and Kevin 161 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: became PCP Superman? Not quite. 162 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 4: It was a network show. One Marlborough was a bet 163 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 4: as far as we were gonna go, yeh, no, there's 164 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 4: no drug use no that year. If they were trying 165 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 4: to get some meage, I'm sure they did some kind 166 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 4: of approach to sex, or maybe they'd done that already. 167 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: Okay, so there were no hard drugs, then what made 168 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,959 Speaker 1: the episode too edgy to air on television? According to 169 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: David Chase, the script centered on Kevin's experience with a ghost. Yes, 170 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: a ghost, and again we're not talking about an LSD hallucination. 171 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: The ghost was real, or as real as any ghost 172 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: may be. For his haunting of Kevin Arnold, David Chase 173 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 1: picked a very specific ghost. 174 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 4: He was visited by the spirit of Holding Cawfield. 175 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: Holding Cawfield is the protagonist in JD. Salinger's classic coming 176 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: of age novel Catcher in the Rye expelled from his 177 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 1: school for flunking several classes. 178 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,319 Speaker 4: Holden Cawfield came into his room and they had conversations. 179 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 4: I believe Holden Cawfield got him to smoke a cigarette. 180 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,439 Speaker 4: You know, bad boy. Holder Holding Colffield has a lot 181 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 4: more age than Kevin Arnold. Yeah, I guess what was 182 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 4: happening was that Kevin Arnold was starting to go through 183 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 4: the teenage rejection of the parents or adolescence. I think 184 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 4: was more honest about adolescens. In other words, that it 185 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 4: can get kind of rough right times. And you know 186 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 4: when I, when I was younger, you know, I always 187 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 4: wanted to be a bad book. 188 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: David was born in Mount Vernon, New York, in nineteen 189 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: forty five, and he was raised in New Jersey. He 190 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: was an only child in a large Italian American family 191 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: with lots of close extended relatives. His father, Henry, owned 192 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: a hardware store in Verona, New Jersey, and his mother, Norma, 193 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: had a job proofreading the phone book. Henry and Norma 194 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: were hard working children, Ittalian immigrants who wanted David to 195 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: blend in with post World War Two era American society. 196 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: But as a kid, David always marched to the beat 197 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,559 Speaker 1: of his own drum. He loved going on adventures in 198 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: the woods in New Jersey with his friends. He was 199 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: fascinated by all the local mob stories in the newspaper, 200 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: as well as the old school Jimmy Cagney gangster film 201 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: Public Enemy. But by the time he was a team 202 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: the wanna be bad boy switched up his aspirations. In 203 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 1: the sixties, he wanted to become a rock and roller, 204 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,559 Speaker 1: but his family was against such folly. So David channeled 205 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: that adolescent tension between him and his parents into his 206 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: Wonder Year's episode. 207 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 4: Well, part of it was based on a teacher that 208 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 4: I had in high school, a woman named Teresa Gaetano 209 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 4: with her real name, And she always kind of looked 210 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 4: out for me, and she was always on my side. 211 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 4: She's an English teacher. She was a young woman. She 212 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 4: was probably thirty at that time, which when you're seventeen 213 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 4: sixteen seems like an adult, you know what I mean, 214 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 4: But thirty is messing. Obviously. She was a dynamic teacher. 215 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 4: She was interesting. And my parents went to parents night 216 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,959 Speaker 4: and they came back and they told me that they 217 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 4: talked to her and that they were afraid that I 218 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 4: was going to become a beatnik. 219 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: The term beatnik is a derogatory name for the followers 220 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: of the Beat Generation, which was a social movement of 221 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: artists who rejected mainstream values and embraced self expression. The 222 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: Beat Generation was known for its jazz influenced poetry and 223 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: their explorations of sexuality, spirituality, psychedelics, and anti materialism. What 224 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: David's parents saw was a growing concern about the future 225 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:01,439 Speaker 1: of their son, while his teacher, Teresa Gatano, saw very differently. 226 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 4: And she said, you don't have to worry about her. 227 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 4: He's going to turn out all right, even if he's 228 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 4: a beating. And when they told me that, they didn't 229 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 4: say it to me with any form of relief. It 230 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 4: was kind of like maybe they weren't that encouraged, or 231 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 4: she hadn't been encouraging enough, but they did tell me, so. 232 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 4: I don't know why they did that, but I always 233 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:27,439 Speaker 4: felt grateful to her that she said that. In fact, 234 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,199 Speaker 4: a couple of years ago, I invested some money into 235 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 4: firing a detective to find her and I was going 236 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 4: to call her, and then I never did it. I 237 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 4: still could. She's still alive. 238 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: David's early life was shaped by adults like his teacher, 239 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: Teresa Gaitana, who saw something in him others missed. But 240 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: it was his own coming of age experiences during the 241 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: cultural upheaval of the late sixties and early seventies that 242 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: gave him a unique perspective to share with audiences. 243 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 4: Wonder Years was kind of a departure from standard television. 244 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 4: You know, most television was franchises, really doctors, lawyers, cops. 245 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 4: I mean there had always been family stories on TV, 246 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 4: but not commenting on life at that time. You know, 247 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 4: a revolution had occurred in the country the sixties to that, 248 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 4: but everything had changed, and youth very important. The sixties 249 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 4: were some people called it the youth quake, and well, 250 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 4: rock and roll took over everything. Rock and roll was 251 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 4: as important then as the Internet is now. It was 252 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 4: a whole different experience. There was the art itself, right. 253 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 4: My friend Stevie Vanzett would say that it was Bob 254 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 4: Dylan changed everything, and that could be true. In other words, 255 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 4: the music that became popular with young people. Instead of 256 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 4: being like I love you, you love me you, instead 257 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 4: of just those love songs as McCartney could go on 258 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 4: another silly love Si, they became about death and betrayal, 259 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 4: illness or rebellion, and it changed the culture. So we're 260 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 4: still living through with that. 261 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: David's friend Stevie van Zant aka Little Stevie, who's a 262 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: member of Bruce Springsteen's Eat Street Band and a proud 263 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: son of New Jersey, also of course plays Silvio the soprano, 264 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: family mobster and Bada Bang nightclub owner. Returning to the 265 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: beat Poets the beat Nicks in the early sixties. Stevie 266 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: van Zant believes that between nineteen sixty three and nineteen 267 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: sixty five, Bob Dylan changed everything in American culture. You see, 268 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: Bob Dylan's poetic folk music helped inspire the Hippies and 269 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: their Summer of Love in sixty seven. Early in his career, 270 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: though in the sixties he wrote music and support of 271 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: social justice issues. He wrote songs like Blowing in the 272 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: Wind and The Times They Are a Change in which 273 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: served as an anti war anthem, and the other as 274 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: a civil rights movement anthem. But his influence wasn't limited 275 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: to hippie and folk music. Dylan also revolutionized rock and 276 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: roll when he proved mainstream pop songs could hold complex 277 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: storytelling in their lyrics, stories that not only resonated with 278 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: their audiences but inspired them to take action. Dylan was 279 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: changed personified, and Bob Dylan had a significant impact on 280 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: young David Chase. The success and artistry of Bob Dylan, 281 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: as well as the British invasion with the Beatles and 282 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: the Rolling Stones, that made David realize rock and roll 283 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: was art and that with his words, he could be 284 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: an artist too, just like Dylan. At first, he wanted 285 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: to be a rock star like his idols of the sixties, 286 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: so he formed a band, one that never actually performed anywhere. 287 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: But that path is how David eventually discovered his dream 288 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: to be a filmmaker, which led him onto the paths 289 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: becoming a television writer, one who used his artistry to 290 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: show us the grittier side of American lives. As for 291 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: David Chase's Lost Wonder Year's episode, we asked him how 292 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: he did Kevin Arnold's storyline with his supportive teacher. 293 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 4: I don't recall, but she must have cut him a 294 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 4: brake somehow, right, I mean, he must have been the 295 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 4: hero of the story, or so to me when I 296 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 4: look back on that, it doesn't seem to be that 297 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 4: the important thing about that script was the teacher. It 298 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 4: seems to me that for Wonder Years that the ghost 299 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 4: of Olden Clawfield. That was very different for any TV showing, 300 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 4: and Olden Cowfield was a bad boy. 301 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: Of course, David Chase focuses on the dream sequence with 302 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 1: the bad boy. It's in his voice as he recalls 303 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: the Lost Wonder Year's script. You can sense the same 304 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: creativity that would later blossom with the Sopranos, because, as 305 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: we all know, this wouldn't be the last time David 306 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 1: would write about a bad boy who pushed the boundaries 307 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: of standard TV. Since we had the chance to ask 308 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: the man himself, we were curious about what else might 309 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 1: be in David's script that was deemed too edgy. What 310 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: other secrets did the lost episode hold? Unfortunately David doesn't 311 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: have a copy of that script. 312 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 4: But I wasn't on the staff on that show. I 313 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 4: wasn't a producer on that show. So I was going 314 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 4: to write one episode. That was it. 315 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: Although David can't check the original script, he did give 316 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: us a lead on where we might find his lost 317 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 1: work buried somewhere in the files at twentieth Century Fox, 318 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: which produced the show with ABC. 319 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 4: Well, they must have records. There was a legal contract 320 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 4: to write it, and I was paid for it. Now, 321 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 4: I mean ABC might have a copy of it too, 322 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 4: So if they have, our gives is probably there. If 323 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 4: they don't, then some of those people clear out stuff 324 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 4: after a while, So I wish I had that script. 325 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: So with David's lead, we were one step closer to 326 00:18:47,400 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: finding the lost episode. It should be no surprise. The 327 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 1: rejected episode of The Wonder Years wasn't the only roadblock 328 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: in David Chase's career. The want to Be bad Boy 329 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 1: in New Jersey faced several setbacks working in network television. 330 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: One setback occurred while filming the show Almost Grown. Part 331 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,120 Speaker 1: of the series took place in the same era as 332 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: The Wonder Years, but as seen through a different lens. 333 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 4: And I also did a series dentical Almost Grown, which 334 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 4: was about a rock and roll fanatic from the sixties 335 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 4: who met his future wife in high school in the sixties. 336 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 4: Three and then the pilot was two hours long, and 337 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 4: it followed them. We did the early sixties, the last 338 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 4: sixties with you know, campus craziness and all that, and 339 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 4: then them as a divorced couple, and that was all 340 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 4: about to meet. In fact, the whole point of the 341 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 4: show was to have each episode had a kind of 342 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 4: the theme set forward from a famous or copylar start. 343 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: The series starred Tim Daily and Eve Gordon as the 344 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: high school sweethearts turned devorceeeds. 345 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 4: And it worked pretty well, I really did. Tim and 346 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 4: Eve were great, the kids were great. It was on 347 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 4: Monday nights so CBS at ten o'clock and it just 348 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 4: was not catching on, and then it started to catch 349 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 4: on and critics started to write favorably about it because 350 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 4: it was different. And then CBS canceled it. And it's 351 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 4: always been my theory that CBS canceled it because Universal, 352 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 4: who did a lot of business with all the networks, 353 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 4: it was too expensive, and Universal asked not to cancel 354 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 4: and probably said, you know, we'll give you some other 355 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 4: d detective show to reduced to eight or something. That's 356 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 4: just my thought. There's no proof of that, but it 357 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 4: was odd the way it happened. 358 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: Remembers exactly where he was when the show was canceled. 359 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 4: We were doing pickups for the first half of the season. 360 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 4: For episode thirteen. CBS had ordered four more that we 361 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 4: were writing scripts for, and then all of a sudden, 362 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 4: out of nowhere comes this cancelation. And I went went 363 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 4: down to the set on the stage and we were 364 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 4: shooting a scene between Tim Day and another actor as 365 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 4: two young like long hair guys in sleeping bags. So 366 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 4: it didn't need much of a set, needed like a 367 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 4: one ball. Meanwhile, in that stage, bulldozers were tearing down 368 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 4: our sets. That's how fast they were. Because the next 369 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 4: day they had sold that space already to something else, 370 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 4: so something was fishing. They knew exactly what they were doing. 371 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: Watching the almost grown set be dismantled by the heavy 372 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: equipment was a devastating blow for David Chase. What was 373 00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: it like? Oh? 374 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 4: It in still the hatred in me? 375 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: Frankly, But despite the fact David constantly struggled against the 376 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: rigidity of working in network television, he kept writing and 377 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: developing new projects. At each of his TV development deals, 378 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: he wrote movie scripts on the side, much like his 379 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 1: Wonder Year's episode. Many of his TV pilots and feature 380 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: films were turned down for being too dark. Despite the 381 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: constant rejections, David had this one pitch he loved. It 382 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: was for a feature film about Quote, a mobster in 383 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 1: therapy who was having problems with his mother. His manager 384 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: at bryl Stein Gray Lloyd Brawn suggested David's film would 385 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: make a great television series. At that same time, a 386 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: cable TV show on HBO called The Larry Sanders Show 387 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: caught David's attention. It was an Emmy Award winning sitcom 388 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 1: starring Gary Shanling. The show gave a behind the scenes 389 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: look at a fictional late night talk show. 390 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 4: The characters, they were cowardly, they were narcissistic, they were 391 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 4: full of shit. They were real people, and they were 392 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 4: very funny. And that's why when I first signed a 393 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 4: deal was berl Stein Gray, another development deal. I started 394 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 4: pumping them right away about selling the Sopranos idea to HBO, 395 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:20,479 Speaker 4: and they said, no, HBO hadn't completely turned their business 396 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 4: modelation and this was going to be expensive. It was 397 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 4: an hour show and they didn't want to do that. 398 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,479 Speaker 4: So we went to see the outlier of the network's Fox. 399 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: At that time, his stubbornness paid off. David finally got 400 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 1: the green light to develop his new project about an 401 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: Italian American mafioso seeking therapy, and just like the Wonder Years, 402 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 1: once again he would be writing for network television. That 403 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 1: could be a frustration. 404 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,880 Speaker 4: Really, if you look at the pilot of The Sopranos, 405 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 4: that's really kind of what you see. However, the one 406 00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 4: that I did for Fox, I thought, work, sorry, don't 407 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 4: have anybody get killed. Now, Okay, this is a gangster 408 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 4: show where nobody gets killed. And as I was writing it, 409 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 4: I began to in the language and I began to realize, 410 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,360 Speaker 4: man if this thing goes. If they buy this, it's 411 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 4: going to be a catastro show. It's going to be 412 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 4: this coalition of differing expectations that they want and what 413 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 4: I want. They're going to be like Howl like that. 414 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 4: I wrote this pilot that didn't have any merger, and 415 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 4: every other network passed off, so on CBS, NBC and ABC, 416 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 4: and I thought, idiot, you gave a mob show and 417 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 4: nobody gets nobody gets robbed down. So I fixed that. 418 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 4: I made a c story before we went to HBO, 419 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 4: and they brought that. Somebody got killed, there was an explosion, 420 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 4: a restaurant got destroyed. 421 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety seven, the Soprano found its home at HBO. HBO, 422 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 1: also known as Home Box Office, was a premium cable 423 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 1: channel network that was known for airing sports events and 424 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: first rate movies. Their secret new formula for TV was 425 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 1: that they started funding television series while keeping movie quality 426 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 1: scripts and production, and thanks to David Chase and the Sopranos, 427 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 1: HBO would go on to revolutionize TV. 428 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 4: Sopranos was these were sociopaths and career criminals. There was 429 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 4: no cops. I mean there were, but the cops for 430 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,159 Speaker 4: this there was a doctor who was a psychiaterst it 431 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 4: was about a family of chrominals. There hadn't done anything 432 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 4: like that on TV. And also the thinking about it 433 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 4: having somebody's mother play the bad guy, the villain, that 434 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:51,479 Speaker 4: was different. 435 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,679 Speaker 1: Just like his script for The Wonder Years, David relied 436 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: on his own life experiences to tell the stories of 437 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 1: The Sopranos. The show takes place in these same New 438 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,479 Speaker 1: Jersey suburbs where David Chase grew up. Its fictional DeMeo 439 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: crime family was based on the local New Jersey wise 440 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 1: guys David heard about growing up, and it should be 441 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,439 Speaker 1: no surprise that David's relationship with his mother is what 442 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 1: inspired Tony's conflicted relationship with his mom. In order to 443 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: truthfully delve into Tony's journey in therapy with the psychiatrist, 444 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: doctor Melfie, David drew on his own experiences with a therapist. 445 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: The Sopranos is thoroughly infused with David Chase's obsessions, his fears, frustrations, 446 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: desires and aspirations. Even David Chase's dream to be a 447 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: filmmaker gets reflected in the character Christopher Molta, Santi, Tony's 448 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 1: nephew who starts writing screenplays to try to break into Hollywood. 449 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: David Chase's remarkable personal storytelling was amplified by the incredible cast. 450 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 4: I mean, I felt we had done something pretty good. 451 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 4: You know, when it comes to the mesaorizing department, you 452 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,400 Speaker 4: really also have to go see who would you name? 453 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 4: Jim somebody, Jim Gandalfen. You know, he was exceptional. 454 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: Actor, James Gandolphine. He brought Tony soprano to life. He 455 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,880 Speaker 1: was terrifying, but he was equally compelling. His iconic performance 456 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: earned him three Emmys, five Screen Actors Guild Awards, one 457 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: Golden Globe, and the love of millions of fans. Unlike 458 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 1: The Wonder Years and other network shows David worked on, 459 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: his crime Family series wasn't seen as quote too dark 460 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,360 Speaker 1: or quote too edgy. Instead, working with HBO was vastly 461 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: different from a traditional network. 462 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 4: Oh my god, are you kidding me? It had been 463 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 4: like making a show in the Soviet Union. What you 464 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 4: could say, what you could sir, where you could be 465 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 4: disrespectful or what was considered disrespectful. Literally, it was like 466 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 4: the fucking Politbureau of the Soviet Union and HBO. We 467 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,880 Speaker 4: had two arguments one was about the name of the show, 468 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 4: and one was about the first episode where Tony himself 469 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 4: commits to Murdy Straum was a guy goal college. We 470 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 4: had those two arguments and that was it forever. Not 471 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 4: that they didn't voice their opinions, but there were somebody 472 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 4: we could talk with each other. There was listening and 473 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 4: speaking going on, and you knew that their goal was 474 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 4: completely different than the networks. Their goal was to present 475 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 4: something dynamic, original, nervous making, and that loves those role 476 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 4: of things that the networks don't want, at least at 477 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 4: that time. 478 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: It was the college episode to change the course of 479 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: television history forever. It was high art about low characters. 480 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: It was a visceral illustration of Tony's role as a 481 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: family man, but one with a twisted moral code. Tony's 482 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: internal complexities paved the way for other anti heroes, think 483 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: Breaking Bad's high school chemistry teacher turned crystal meth dealer 484 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: Walter White. But as we've heard, Tony Soprano wasn't the 485 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: first anti hero. David Penn, his self confessed tendency to 486 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 1: write toward a quote unquote bad Boy followed him around 487 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: for a while. 488 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 4: Well. 489 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: Tony soprano is the ultimate anti hero in television history. 490 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: Olden Coffield was the old school anti hero and thus 491 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: the ghost that gave meaning to David's Lost Wonder Year's episode. 492 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: Looking back at David Chase's Wonder Year's episode, it makes 493 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: perfect sense that he'd be chosen to take the show 494 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: in an edgier direction. That's what David did best. Pushed 495 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: the boundaries of television, whether he's enlisting the ghost of 496 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: bad boy Holding Coffield to choke a smoke with Kevin Arnold, 497 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: who's in the throes of full on teenage adolescents, or 498 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: if he's revealing the generational trauma and intercomplexities of a 499 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: family of career criminals. For both his Wonder Year script 500 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: and The Sopranos, David's conflicted family dynamics shaped both stories. 501 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: There's so much of David's life portrayed in the Sopranos, 502 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: we can infer how much of his adolescences layered in 503 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: his Wonder Year's episode. In his Lost script, with its 504 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: haunting of holding Coffee, you sense that David Chase was 505 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: the spirit of Kevin Arnold. After our conversation with David ended, 506 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: we followed his lead for where we might find his 507 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: lost script. One legal representative at twentieth Century Fox said 508 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: the company had been bought and sold so many times 509 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: the script was likely lost for all time. Another representative 510 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: said that even if they had the script, they wouldn't 511 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: release it, which begs the question will David's episode of 512 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: the Wonder Year's ever surface? Will we ever find what 513 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: timely advice the ghost of Olden Coffield gave Kevin Arnold, 514 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: or how Kevin's teacher cut him a brake? We're not sure, 515 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: but there's one person who's curious to see the script again. 516 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 4: Oh, I'd love it, So I say that now until 517 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 4: Arry No, I love that. Yeah. 518 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: We may not have discovered the lost David Chase Wonder 519 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: Year's Script, but we found something far better, a conversation 520 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 1: about the nature of art and the artist from the man, 521 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: the myth, and the legen of television himself. In the end, 522 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: David Chase goes back to Bob Dylan to analyze the 523 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: meaning and the value of the revolution that he created Intellivision. 524 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: Just like how Dylan made art as pop music, David 525 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: Chase made art as TV. As David Chase says, Dylan 526 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: songs were not silly little love songs like the majority 527 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: of pop tunes of the day. Instead, Bob Dylan. 528 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 4: Songs became about death and betrayal, illness or rebellion, and 529 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 4: it changed changed to culture and we're still living through 530 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 4: it now. And so these shows that I'm talking about 531 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 4: were kind of little stabs are trying to capture that. 532 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: In a very David Chase way. His little stabs became 533 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 1: great artwork. 534 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 2: So my only and it's a very tenuous connection to 535 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 2: the Wonder Years. But I took a screenwriting class one 536 00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 2: summer at UCLA with d Caruso, who was a a old, 537 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 2: long time screenwriter. He'd written on Gilligan's Island or probably 538 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 2: with a lot of other stuff too. But Danica mckeller, 539 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 2: who played Winnie Cooper, also took his class. It was 540 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 2: not the same class, but it was at the same time. 541 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 2: And I would always talk to us about how I 542 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 2: have you know people in my class, so I don't 543 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 2: want to say who, and managed to mention like. 544 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: Danica mckeller was telling me the other day. 545 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 2: So he was so proud she and I could both 546 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 2: write an episode of an island based sitcom if you 547 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 2: needed it. If it comes up drop of a head. 548 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 2: I love any very special characters in this one. 549 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 3: Oh gosh, I wish I watched The Wonder Years is 550 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 3: my question. I'm like, is it worth going back? Sometimes 551 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 3: it's like those old classic TV shows where you're like, 552 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 3: is it worth like going back? Because I will say 553 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 3: I missed the Sopranos the first time, and it wasn't 554 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 3: until I was married that my husband was like, no, 555 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 3: we should like go back and watch the Sopranos, and surprise, surprise, 556 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 3: it's great. Everyone was right. 557 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: I had an interesting one with the very special character 558 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: because I was like, you know, I wanted it to 559 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: be the Holden Coffield ghost. But then something else jumped out, 560 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: which was David Chase's therapist. You're one, you're the therapist 561 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: or David Chase. That's just gotta be wild. But then, secondly, 562 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: kudos to them for never cashing in on the Sopranos fame, Like, 563 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: I don't know who they are. They never wrote a 564 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: cookbook of Italian American dishes from David Chase's therapist, right 565 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 1: with the tack of doctor Melfie on the cover. I 566 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: was like, good on you, so that's mine. 567 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 3: They were always doing that thing that Jason's screenwriting teacher 568 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 3: was doing like well, I can't say who, but I 569 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 3: have one therapy patient very specific. 570 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: You probably know his name. 571 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 2: Very Special Episodes is made by some very special people, 572 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 2: thanks to Nicole Lambert of Chase Films, who helped make 573 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 2: today's interview happen to. This episode was written by Katie Maddie. 574 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 2: If you go all the way back to our first episode, 575 00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 2: Katie wrote that one too good to have her back 576 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 2: in the Our show was hosted by Zaren Burnett, Danish Swartz, 577 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 2: and Jason English. 578 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: Our producer is Josh Fisher. 579 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 2: Story editing by Zarren Burnett, Editing and Sam Design, mixed 580 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,439 Speaker 2: and mastered by Josh Fisher. Additional editing by Mary Doo. 581 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,800 Speaker 2: Original music by Alise McCoy. Show logo by Lucy Quintania. 582 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Jason English. You can email the 583 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 2: show at Very Special Episodes at gmail dot com. If 584 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 2: you secretly saved a copy of David Chase's Wonder Year script, 585 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 2: we'd love to read it. We'll send it over to 586 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 2: our new pal, David Chase. Very Special Episodes is a 587 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 2: production of iHeart Podcasts.