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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Well, it's Friday Night and

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Speaker 1: it is special, a coup that murders at least two wives, wow,

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Speaker 1: and gets away with it for years and years and years.

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Speaker 1: Of course, I'm talking about the sleeves bag Drew Peterson.

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Speaker 1: In the last weeks an update in the Drew Peterson case.

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Guys, you do know

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Speaker 1: Stacy Peterson, wife number four's body has never been found.

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Speaker 1: He was finally convicted in the murder of his third wife,

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Speaker 1: Kathleen Savio. She was found dead, covered in bruises head

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Speaker 1: to toe, drowned in a bone dry bathtub, and he

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Speaker 1: skated on that for years until her body had to

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Speaker 1: be exhumed to put his sorry we're in behind bars. Okay,

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Speaker 1: get this. Peterson was wheeled into the courtroom and wearing glasses,

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Speaker 1: trying to look pitiful, claiming he needs a psychological evaluation.

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Speaker 1: I could have told you that on day one, because

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Speaker 1: he's a perv, not because he has any mental illness.

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Speaker 1: Trust me on that this is in his bid to

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Speaker 1: overturn his conviction for murder one of third wife Kathleen Savio. Okay,

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Speaker 1: rewind what happened in that case and trust me, he's

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Speaker 1: sick all right, but it does not rise to mental illness.

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Speaker 1: A police officer that married and divorced three times, his

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Speaker 1: fourth wife now missing, seemingly leaving behind her home and

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Speaker 1: her children without a trace. That's odd, isn't it? Still

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Speaker 1: no resolution in the missing person report of Stacy Peterson?

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Speaker 1: With me right now, Drew Peterson's defense lawyer Joel Brosky,

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Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute director Cheryl McCollum, New York psychologist,

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Speaker 1: doctor Chloe Carmichael, and WSB reporter Robin Walynsky. Let's just

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Speaker 1: kick it off with Drew Peterson in his own words. Now,

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Speaker 1: Stacy Peterson goes missing. According to those close to her,

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Speaker 1: she desperately wanted a divorce and at the time she

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Speaker 1: knew his third wife, Kathleen Savio, was in ordered by

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Speaker 1: Drew Peterson. Nobody else knew that. Listen to what Drew

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Speaker 1: Peterson tells doctor Phil.

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Speaker 2: Well, there have been many allegations that have been made

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Speaker 2: against Drew regarding Stacy and allegation, accusation.

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Speaker 3: And whatever you want to call it.

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Speaker 2: Now, you know, we don't know if Stacy made these claims,

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Speaker 2: but I have a graphic here with.

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Speaker 3: Some of them.

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Speaker 2: First, Stacy's family says Stacey told Drew she wanted a

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Speaker 2: divorce shortly before she disappeared.

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Speaker 3: Is that true?

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Speaker 4: No, she told me she wanted a divorce. And I

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Speaker 4: hate saying this, but the reality of it. She told

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Speaker 4: me she wanted to divorce once a month.

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Speaker 2: So you're saying it varied with her minstrel cycle.

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Speaker 4: Very much so, And I'm not trying to be disrespectful

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Speaker 4: a vain saying that that was a reality.

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Speaker 2: There is an allegation or an accusation that Stacey told

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Speaker 2: a neighbor if anything happened to her it was not

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Speaker 2: an accident, that Drew had killed her. Do you think

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Speaker 2: that she actually said that to a neighbor.

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Speaker 4: I really have to question the credibility of the neighbor,

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Speaker 4: because Stacey and I still, even with her difficulties, we

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Speaker 4: still had a very romantic relationship. We still were together

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Speaker 4: a lot, We still spend time coddling that type of thing.

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Speaker 2: So, but Drew, if you had a romantic relationship, if

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Speaker 2: you were still intimate and affectionate and together with one another,

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Speaker 2: how could she disappear? And you not dismantle the world

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Speaker 2: looking for her.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I think I've done all that I can do and

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Speaker 4: all I have the resources available to do.

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Speaker 2: But that defies common sense. I mean, if you were

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Speaker 2: in love with this woman, were you in love with.

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Speaker 3: Her when she disappeared, Yes, very much. So are you

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Speaker 3: in love with her today?

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Speaker 4: I try to be, but it's I'm having I have

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Speaker 4: a lot of anger issues about it now that she

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Speaker 4: took off.

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Speaker 3: Like she did.

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Speaker 2: She also said that, and I believe it's the same neighbor.

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Speaker 2: You probably know better than I that you always called

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Speaker 2: and checked on Stacy, that you were very attentive and

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Speaker 2: in fact it got to the point of being controlling,

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Speaker 2: but that you were always calling to check up on her.

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Speaker 3: We were always calling each other.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So I don't think it was one way thing,

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Speaker 4: and I wasn't trying to be controlling when you have

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Speaker 4: a romantic relationship with someboda calling them all the time.

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Speaker 2: So it's also been alleged that Stacy told her sister

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Speaker 2: that she feared for her life. Do you believe she

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Speaker 2: said that to her sister?

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Speaker 4: Again, I don't know, And if she was trying to

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Speaker 4: set me up for some sort of divorce or anything.

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Speaker 4: They might have been a way to do it.

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Speaker 2: In that you did have a pattern of calling each

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Speaker 2: other all the time. Why did you not call her

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Speaker 2: the day she disappeared?

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Speaker 4: I didn't, but she there was she wanted her space.

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Speaker 4: She wanted her space, So that day I gave her space.

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Speaker 2: Because there are those obviously say you called her because

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Speaker 2: you didn't call her because you knew she couldn't answer.

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Speaker 2: But you're saying you didn't call her because you were

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Speaker 2: given her space.

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Speaker 1: Correct crime Stories with Nancy Grace drew Peterson's bid to

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Speaker 1: overturn his conviction for murder one also through in to

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Speaker 1: the stew ineffective legal counsel. He also claims prosecutorial misconduct

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Speaker 1: occurred in the case. He's basically saying, look over here

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Speaker 1: at my defense attorney and the prosecutor. Don't look at

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Speaker 1: me and the two wives I've murdered. Yeah, don't look there,

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Speaker 1: look here. Okay, this guy is not mentally ill, and

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Speaker 1: if he has deteriorated behind bars as he thinks about

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Speaker 1: has nightmares about all the women he's murdered, that does

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Speaker 1: not mean he was insane at the time of the

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Speaker 1: two Excuse Me One murder. Listen to what Drew Peterson

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Speaker 1: tells doctor Phil.

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Speaker 2: Did you ever get physical with her? Did you ever

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Speaker 2: attack her? Did you ever have a physical fight.

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Speaker 4: There was a physical confrontation where I cornered her in

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Speaker 4: the kitchen one time and she hit me in the

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Speaker 4: head with a frozen steak.

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Speaker 3: But I didn't retaliate or anything.

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Speaker 2: Because her stepsister says that you threw Stacy down the stairs,

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Speaker 2: knocked her into the TV, and threw her across the room.

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Speaker 3: That never happened. This never happened, Never happened.

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Speaker 2: Why why are these people saying these things?

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Speaker 4: I don't know unless they're trying to add some sort

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Speaker 4: of fuel to the fire. You know what your step

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Speaker 4: brother has said right that he says that he helped

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Speaker 4: you move a blue barrel that was warm to the touch.

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Speaker 4: He told friends that he thought after the fact that

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Speaker 4: he actually helped you move her body.

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Speaker 3: That didn't happen. Was there a blue barrel?

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Speaker 2: No, did he come over and help you do anything,

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Speaker 2: move anything, do anything?

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Speaker 4: Never the day I was with him the day before

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Speaker 4: and I was attempting to get him a job at

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Speaker 4: a grocery store. He had just lost his job, and

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Speaker 4: he was so intoxicated or high end something that I

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Speaker 4: had to cancel the interview and we couldn't file through

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Speaker 4: with it.

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Speaker 3: So he's not a reliable guy. I would say, no, Well,

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Speaker 3: the phone.

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Speaker 2: Records show that you were near the Chicago Sanitary and

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Speaker 2: Ship Channel the day she went missing. Were you there?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I was driving through that area. What were you

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Speaker 3: doing there?

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Speaker 4: I was looking for in a couple of spots I

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Speaker 4: thought that she might be I was looking for my car.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that she was driving.

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Speaker 1: You just heard Drew Peterson talking to doctor Phil our friend.

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Speaker 1: Regarding a lot of points that are not lost on prosecutors.

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Speaker 1: My first point would be Cheryl McCollum, a director of

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Speaker 1: the Cole Case Research Institute. Every time I would try

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Speaker 1: somebody for murder, for anything, for that matter, the defense

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Speaker 1: attorneys would say, she's just mean because she's on a period.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it doesn't matter what you're doing,

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Speaker 1: it's because you're on your period. But that that's always

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Speaker 1: what men claim.

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Speaker 5: Why is that cheers? What's interesting to me, though, every

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Speaker 5: time she's on her period, all she asks for is

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Speaker 5: the divorce. She's not crying, she just wants to get

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Speaker 5: the hell away from you, So back to me would

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Speaker 5: be a pattern that he would need to look at.

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Speaker 5: That it's not because of her period she wants away

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Speaker 5: from you.

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Speaker 6: You know.

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Speaker 1: To Robin Wellinsky joining me, WSB investigative reporter Robin Wilensky

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Speaker 1: that the claims that she wanted a divorce are overwhelming,

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Speaker 1: but we also know that at the time she goes missing,

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Speaker 1: she had been boxing up Drew Peterson's possessions to kick

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Speaker 1: him out and stacking them up in the garage.

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Speaker 7: Robin, Yeah, Nancy, she totally wanted out of this marriage.

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Speaker 7: He's got a very very long history of four wives,

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Speaker 7: all who had their period, all who really wanted away

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Speaker 7: from him. His first wife, Carol, was married six years.

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Speaker 7: She claimed he was a cheater. They got divorced, and

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Speaker 7: there was Vicki, who said that he was abusing her

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Speaker 7: and threatening her allegations of course, and she told police,

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Speaker 7: you know, after Stacy disappeared, that Peterson threatened to kill

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Speaker 7: her and make it look like an accident. And oh,

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Speaker 7: then there was Kathleen, who he was married to for

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Speaker 7: eleven years, who mysteriously dies in a dry bathtub. I

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Speaker 7: was there, by the way, the day they dug her

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Speaker 7: up at the cemetery, And then of course there's Stacy

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Speaker 7: who was only nineteen and Drew was what forty nine,

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Speaker 7: and she wanted far away from him, period or not.

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Speaker 1: It broke my heart speaking to Vicki and her daughter

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Speaker 1: learning about life with Drew Peterson. But that's a whole

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Speaker 1: other can of worms. Doctor Chloe Carmichael, New York psychologist,

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Speaker 1: joining me, founder of anxietytools dot com. Doctor Chloe, isn't

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Speaker 1: it true statistically, when women that have been abused try

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Speaker 1: to leave the relationship or get pregnant, that's the highest

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Speaker 1: incidence of their murders.

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Speaker 6: Yes, Nancy, of course it's absolutely true, because what that

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Speaker 6: does is it provokes anger on the part of the

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Speaker 6: person that they're attempting to leave, which is why I

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Speaker 6: actually think it's very interesting that this gentleman said that

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Speaker 6: he was actually very angry with her. He said that

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Speaker 6: he was angry because she left, which may have even

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Speaker 6: been what she was planning to do. But of course

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Speaker 6: we don't know that she left, and really neither does he,

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Speaker 6: and so it's very unusual for someone whose spouse is

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Speaker 6: missing to suddenly just say that they're angry with the person.

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Speaker 6: For leaving because anger puts more distance between us. When

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Speaker 6: you genuinely missed your spouse and didn't want them gone,

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Speaker 6: it's actually difficult to even connect with any feelings of anger,

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Speaker 6: even if they're appropriate. So the fact that he's jumping

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Speaker 6: to anger with her and the case of someone who

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Speaker 6: is at best Keith missing, I think is very unusual

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Speaker 6: and somewhat suspicious.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace in the last days, convicted

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Speaker 1: killer Drew Peterson is back in a Will County courtroom

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Speaker 1: having himself rolled in in a wheelchair okay, wearing glasses

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Speaker 1: m okay, claiming he needs psychological evaluation. He may be

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Speaker 1: a sex addict, but that does not rise to a

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Speaker 1: mental illness. He may be a two time stone cold killer,

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Speaker 1: maybe more for all I know, but he is not

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Speaker 1: mentally ill. The only illness he has is in his underwear. Okay, now,

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Speaker 1: this is what happened with me? Right now? You know

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Speaker 1: his name very well, renowned Chicago defense attorney Joel Brodsky.

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Speaker 1: Let's just say this isn't our first time in the

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Speaker 1: boxing ring. Joel Brosky defending Drew Peterson at trial. His

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Speaker 1: longtime defender Joel Brodsky was Now hold a minute, I've

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Speaker 1: seen many a photo of Drew Peterson and for him

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Speaker 1: to say the only physical incident they ever had was

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Speaker 1: when she Stacey hit him in the head with a

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Speaker 1: frozen steak.

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Speaker 3: How to do that?

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Speaker 1: Stand on a ladder he towers over her?

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean he would.

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Speaker 6: That was his position was.

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Speaker 8: He never was physically violent with any of his wives,

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Speaker 8: and he would always his excuse always was that, well,

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Speaker 8: if I, as a police office sir, committed domestic battery,

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Speaker 8: I lose my job. So I would never do that.

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Speaker 8: But you know, Drew was a you know, trained, trained,

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Speaker 8: swat train army officer. You know, if he wanted to

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Speaker 8: resort to violence, he could you do it in a

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Speaker 8: way that wouldn't leave marks. He was an expert at that,

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Speaker 8: you know, from the all the training in the department

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Speaker 8: and the army that he had. You know, I I

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Speaker 8: know that there was with Kathy. I know that there

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Speaker 8: was evidence of some physical altercations.

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Speaker 1: Nothing you know, we are you sure know how to

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Speaker 1: put perfume on the pig? What do you mean by

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Speaker 1: physical altercations? With Kathleen's sophomore there was later found dead, drowned,

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Speaker 1: dead and dry bathtub. What do you mean physical altercation?

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Speaker 1: You mean he beat her up?

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Speaker 8: No, they had a fight that was on actually was

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Speaker 8: on videotape. Uh, Stacy actually taped it.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 8: You know, Kathy was very you know, very Islands vivations.

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Speaker 8: I mean, she wouldn't back down from anything. So they

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Speaker 8: they went at it, but Drew was obviously so much

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Speaker 8: physically stronger. He pinned her to the ground and then

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Speaker 8: the police came and charged them both with battery kind

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Speaker 8: of cross charges. But you know there was no evidence

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Speaker 8: of him ever by breaking bones or or causing bloody

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Speaker 8: noses or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well what woa wait? Hold on, just Cheryl McCollum,

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Speaker 1: have I lost my mind? I mean, Cheryl, you know

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Speaker 1: that for nine years I volunteered at the Battered Women's

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Speaker 1: Center at night when I was prosecuting. Do you hear

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Speaker 1: Joel Brodsky still defending Drew Peterson.

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Speaker 6: Uh.

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Speaker 1: He says, well, there was never a broken bone, but

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, he pinned her to the ground. That was

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Speaker 1: caught on video. Hello, it'll be a cold ay in

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Speaker 1: h eble al. My husband pins me to the ground

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Speaker 1: and the police are not called. Okay, that ain't gonna happen, Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: what happened? I feel like I went down the rabbit hole.

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Speaker 5: Here's the deal. The devil takes many forms, and the

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Speaker 5: reality is a nineteen year old girl was married to

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Speaker 5: a forty nine year old man, yew and that was

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Speaker 5: nothing about but control. And he abused his money with her,

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Speaker 5: his emotions with her, his sex with her, his physical

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Speaker 5: being with her. There's no doubt that every one of

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Speaker 5: his four wives was abused in some way. Drew was

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Speaker 5: not about to let anybody get his money. Well, they

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Speaker 5: weren't no touch his retirement.

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Speaker 1: Drewk Okay Jumpan Joel.

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Speaker 8: Drew was very controlling, very control. I mean, there's no

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Speaker 8: question he was very controlling of all his wives. They

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Speaker 8: all said that he would monitor them electronically follow them.

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Speaker 1: All right, you mean the GPS tracker. I've got what

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Speaker 1: my husband is wrong? Just kidding, Okay, that's not true.

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Speaker 1: Why did I say that, Jewel Broski, what is the

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Speaker 1: defense for Drew Peterson? His wife Stacey just goes missing.

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Speaker 1: And another thing that he said we just heard him

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Speaker 1: tell doctor Phil was the brother in law was a drinker.

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Speaker 1: He was this, he was that that didn't happen. He

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Speaker 1: didn't help him get rid of Stacy's body in a

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Speaker 1: blue cooler. But they were caught on video together. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that night driving through a Starbucks. So the night Stacy

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Speaker 1: goes missing. So how can he say they weren't together.

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Speaker 1: I've watched the video.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, the video. I don't think that was before he

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Speaker 8: gave that interview, before he charges had been brought, so

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Speaker 8: he had never seen the video at that point. He

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Speaker 8: didn't know they had that of it.

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Speaker 1: Joel, you know what you should consider professional dancing because

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Speaker 1: you just danced around. I'm gonna call it dancing with

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Speaker 1: the stars. You need to be there, buddy, Joel, I

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Speaker 1: didn't ask you. Did the Starbucks video come to light

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Speaker 1: after his statement to doctor Phil If you're just saying, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he lied because he didn't know about the video, that's

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Speaker 1: what you're saying.

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Speaker 8: I mean he obviously lied because he didn't know he

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Speaker 8: was he had been caught. You know, if you knew

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Speaker 8: about the video, he would have altered the story in

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Speaker 8: some way.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure made up a different line. Julie, how do

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Speaker 1: you stand yourself? Help me out.

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Speaker 8: I'm trying not to use such a direct language, but yeah,

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Speaker 8: I'm sure he wouldn't have said that if you knew

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Speaker 8: that there was evidence of the contrary. But you know,

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Speaker 8: Drew was building, was, you know, making this trying to

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Speaker 8: tell a consistent story about what happened to Stacy, to

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Speaker 8: keep with that his position that she ran away. That

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Speaker 8: was his story from day one, that she ran off

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Speaker 8: with some other guys.

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Speaker 1: That's true, Joel. He's never wavered in his story. Robin

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Speaker 1: Wilenski wsb. Let's start at the beginning. We know she

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Speaker 1: married him when she's nineteen, he's forty something. What happened

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Speaker 1: around the time of Stacy's disappearance as right now today

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Speaker 1: she has never been seen again. The theory of Drew

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Speaker 1: Peterson and his lawyer with us right now, high profile

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Speaker 1: lawyer out of Chicago, Joel Broski, is that she took

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Speaker 1: off to be with her boyfriend friend. So what happened?

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Speaker 1: Tell me the events around her disappearance, Roberts.

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Speaker 7: She was very angry, she wanted out of the marriage.

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Speaker 7: And you know, the one thing we have not mentioned

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Speaker 7: so far, Nancy, is the fact that that she was

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Speaker 7: so Stacey was super fetiitue and she could have fit

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Speaker 7: in that barrel very easily. And there were reports at

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Speaker 7: the time when I was out in Bowling Brooks that

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Speaker 7: he had access to a small plane, and there was

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Speaker 7: one theory that the bowling Brook Police and detectives were

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Speaker 7: working on at the time that he had flown the

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Speaker 7: plane and that he could have dropped the barrel into

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Speaker 7: a forest area. And there were many searches at the

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Speaker 7: time looking for that barrel. It had never been found

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Speaker 7: in the forest, never been found in any body of water.

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Speaker 7: But she clearly Nancy could have fit in that barrel.

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Speaker 7: They had a very tumultuous relationship. She wanted out and

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Speaker 7: the next thing you know, she disappeared.

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Speaker 1: She disappeared and has never been seen again. FYI, right now,

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Speaker 1: we know that money has run dry, and Stacy's sister

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Speaker 1: has actually launched an effort to raise money on a

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Speaker 1: GoFundMe site to continue the search for Stacy Peterson's body.

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Speaker 1: Her sister, also, like me, believes that Stacy is dead.

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Speaker 1: Go to go fund me and look for help me

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Speaker 1: bring Stacy Peterson home. Help me bring Stacy Peterson home

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Speaker 1: at go fund me. Now what we do know now

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Speaker 1: Joel Broskey, his defense lawyer, is not going to admit

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Speaker 1: to this former okay, is that his brother in law,

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Speaker 1: apparent from one of his other marriages, showed up, was

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Speaker 1: called over to Peterson's home that night and helped him

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Speaker 1: carry a very heavy blue cooler out that was warm

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Speaker 1: to the touch. And to this day that brother in law,

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Speaker 1: who later tried to commit suicide, says he thinks he

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Speaker 1: unwillingly helped dispose of Stacy's body. Her disappearance and or

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Speaker 1: death deal unresolved, drew Peterson's bid to overturn his conviction

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Speaker 1: from murder. One. In his court filing claims, Peterson is

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Speaker 1: quote incapable of relaying his allegations of constitutional deprivations, probably

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Speaker 1: because there were no constitutional deprivations. That is why he

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Speaker 1: is incapable of relaying them. Oh, he can't explain them

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Speaker 1: quote to his legal team in a manner that would

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Speaker 1: allow them to quote adequately and ethically submit claims, because

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Speaker 1: there are no claims. Have you thought of that now?

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Speaker 1: According to this appeal, the defense attorney believes a former

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Speaker 1: judge who found no doubt as to Peterson's mental fitness

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Speaker 1: was quote clearly in error. Right, I guess you want

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Speaker 1: the judge to believe you and not his or her

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Speaker 1: lying eyes now the lawyers are spending our tax money,

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Speaker 1: by the way, to seek a quote more specialized psychological

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Speaker 1: expert to evaluate Peterson. Okay, good luck with that. I

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Speaker 1: just want to remind you his wife, Stacy Peterson, who

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Speaker 1: was just twenty three at the time she vanished, has

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Speaker 1: never been found and he hasn't been tried for that.

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Speaker 1: You know, it just never ends with this guy. We

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Speaker 1: wait as justice unfalse. Good night friend,