1 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: We are outside the crime scene behind us, the home 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: where these four beautiful college students were murdered. All around 3 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 1: us here at the crime scene in Idaho, people are coming, 4 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:24,319 Speaker 1: even in the rain, in the freezing temperatures, behind me 5 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: to lay more flowers at the home where four beautiful 6 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: University of Idaho students were murdered. Right behind me, the 7 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: parking lot. We're out here really early in the morning. 8 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: Typically there are throngs of newscasters and reporters all camped out, 9 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: but I think the rain has scared them away, but 10 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: not the people who are coming to pay their respects 11 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: to those four students. Behind me, the morning shift of 12 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: a twenty for our guard service that is protecting the home. 13 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: And I'm telling you, from what I've seen a lot 14 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: of reporters and oh gosh, crime aficionados, I believe that 15 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: they would get right up on the house and try 16 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: to get in the house if they could. So it's 17 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: a good thing that that guard is there. Don't worry. 18 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: We've been ringing them coffee throughout because it's phrasing here. 19 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:32,119 Speaker 1: Last night, again, we drove the route that Koburger drove 20 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: leaving here. We followed his escape route determined by when 21 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,119 Speaker 1: he turned on his phone when he left the crime scene. 22 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 1: It's really hard driving. We took a video of it. 23 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: The roads are so bad. No one would take that 24 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: route in their right mind. It's pitch dark, it was 25 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: raining at the time. Nobody would take that hour plus 26 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: route home when they could get home and just about 27 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: ten minutes. Not only that, we go to his apartment 28 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:12,679 Speaker 1: and end up meeting and interviewing several of his neighbors, 29 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: who as of this moment, had not spoken before. I 30 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: mean it, say Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you 31 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: for being with us here at Fox Nation in serious 32 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: X one eleven. First of all, take a listen to 33 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: our friends at NBC Brian Cooeburger again in court, the 34 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: families of his victims are still looking for answers about 35 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: a motive. Already for an emotional con the lawyer for 36 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: Keiley gonzalves his family saying Koburger didn't know Kayley or 37 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: Maddie Mugan as far as they know, I don't know 38 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: of anybody that did know him. All those girls were social, 39 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: they were involved in the college. They were working hard, 40 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: waitressing and doing different things. So the idea that he 41 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: may have ran across their paths. I don't think it's uncommon, 42 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: the attorney, saying that Gonzalves family has been in frequent 43 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: contact with investigators as they looked to build their case 44 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: against Koburg. Well, anything that we have we can, we 45 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: send over to the Moscow Police departments in court for 46 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: a as it is called status hearing, is a typical hearing. 47 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 1: We are just now waiting for that warrant to be unsealed. 48 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 1: You know how long it to get the problem cause 49 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: weren't for arrest us sealed. Well, now it may be 50 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: up to two months or longer before we get the 51 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: warrant to search his apartment with me an all star 52 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: panel to make sense of what we're learning out here 53 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,959 Speaker 1: in Moscow, Idaho. First, I want to go to Cheryl McCollum, 54 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: forensic expert and founder the Cold Case Research Institute. She 55 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: saw also the star of Zone seven, a new hit podcast. Cheryl, 56 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: I've got to tell you and everybody else what we 57 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: learned from multiple neighbors last night. All right, listen to this. 58 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: First of all, none of them want to be identified 59 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: or connected to Coburger. They don't want to be called 60 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: his friend, his acquaintance in anything. We learned that Coburger's 61 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: father came all the way to Moscow earlier and helped 62 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: Coburger move into his apartment there at Steptoe Village. We 63 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: also learned that his father, who seemed like a really 64 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: nice guy according to the neighbor, asked the neighbor to 65 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: be friends with Coburger. It's like me arranging a play 66 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 1: date from my twins when they're three years old. He 67 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: asked him to be friends with Coburger and said it's 68 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: really hard for his son to meet people or to 69 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: meet friends. We learned that the FEDS took loads of 70 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: stuff out of Coburger's apartment. We learned that inside Coburger's 71 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: apartment it was very, very sparse, not a lot of 72 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 1: stuff in there at all. We also learned that Coburger's 73 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: apartment is right on top of a little child's apartment. 74 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: There were a lot of children there in the apartment 75 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 1: complex share and it was kind of quite a dichotomy 76 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: to know an alleged mass killer was sharing a wall 77 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: with a child. There are a lot of children in 78 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: the apartment. We also learned something very unusual. I'll get 79 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,919 Speaker 1: Karen start to weigh in on this. So, while the 80 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: neighbor was making friends with Coburger, as Coburger's father had 81 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: asked him to do, at one point he was going 82 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 1: to invite him over to dinner, and his wife said, don't. 83 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: There's just something about him. I don't know what it is. 84 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: I don't like it. I don't want him around. I 85 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: find that and so much more of what the neighbor 86 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: told me to be very very interesting, maybe even probitive 87 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: as it comes to proving the case. Okay, Cheryl will 88 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: call him jump in this shrive Nobody number one. We 89 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: watched his dad answer questions for him to read police officer. 90 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: The fact that his dad would say, hey, make friends 91 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: with my son, be his buddy when his son is 92 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: nearly thirty tells you that his dad slutely knows his 93 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: son is not somebody that can navigate socially in this 94 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 1: world by himself. He's proven it over and over and over. 95 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,840 Speaker 1: This is gonna again be a shock to nobody that 96 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: this guy in social studies is awkward and doesn't know 97 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:21,160 Speaker 1: how to move about as a grown man. He also 98 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: shares an office with two people that are also in 99 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: the PhD program. I think they are going to be critical. 100 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,359 Speaker 1: I think his students are going to be critical. I 101 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: think fellow classmates are going to be critical. We also 102 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: heard from the woman that went on the date with him. 103 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: Is said again she couldn't put her finger on it. 104 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: She just wanted him away from her. Everybody that spends 105 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: any amount of time with this man gets that gut feeling. 106 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,919 Speaker 1: You know. Another interesting thing the neighbor said was the 107 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: father was super nice and he the neighbor believes the 108 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: father and mother had no idea that Coburner could be 109 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: a killer, that they only see him through the lens 110 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: and being their son. But it's very clear to me. 111 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: Karen starting joining me, renowned psychologist joining us out of Manhattan. 112 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: She's at Karen Stark dot com. Karen is spelled with 113 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: a sea. By the way, Karen, what do you make 114 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: daddy trying to set up playdates for Terry Burger? Well, 115 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: that's that's an arrested development, Nancy. I mean, as you said, 116 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: it was something you did with your three year old 117 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: son or daughter, and that makes sense to me. Is 118 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: an introverted guy. And so many people interview talked about 119 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: the fact that being was strange that they could pick 120 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: up something and people do you do when you're around somebody. 121 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: It's very weird that you here. He was out going. 122 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: People will say, oh, he's a good neighbor, but you 123 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: don't hear when it comes to killer. This kind of 124 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: a teller that I mean, think about it. He was stalking. 125 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: He was able to just be their own over and 126 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: over again. He would drive it now very much to himself, 127 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: as it is when you're in a PhD program, and 128 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: you know, when you're in graduate school, you've got to 129 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: spend so much time reading, studying, and that's perfect for him. Well, 130 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: another thing that I found out, guys, and I'm going 131 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: to go to special guests joining us Laura Ingles with 132 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: a senior correspondent with Fox News Channel, Laura, we found 133 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: out from speaking yesterday. We went all over Moscow and 134 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: we spoke with students in the criminal justice program, the 135 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: same program Coburger was in, and they're very upset and 136 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: they pointed out something really critical that I didn't think 137 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: about earlier. They said the day that the bodies were 138 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: found here behind me, that an all school email went out, 139 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: including to Coburger, stating there has been there have been 140 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: homicided just off campus. WSU students excuse me, Eitherham University 141 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: students are believed to be safe, WSU students believed to 142 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: be safe. Classes are going to resume. They also said 143 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: that the students that were afraid to come back to 144 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: campus would be docked. In other words, it would be 145 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: like missing class. You had to come back in person 146 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: to campus. What do you think about that, Laura Angle, 147 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: You know that you can only imagine opening that email, 148 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: and you know, of course then we learned I think 149 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: it was days later. You know, there was some attraction 150 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: there from the place of you know, well, maybe there is. 151 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: Obviously there is somebody still out there. But one of 152 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: the things you mentioned talking to the neighbors where he 153 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: lived in Washington, there was another neighbor that just this 154 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: week came out and said to in published reports, said 155 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 1: that Coburger came out right out to the murders and 156 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: that time friend that you're talking about when email one 157 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: out and so yeah, it seems like they have no leads. 158 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: It seems like it's a crime of passion talking to 159 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,839 Speaker 1: one of these neighbors in his parking lot. And it 160 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: reminds me of the arsonists. That goes back to check 161 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: on the fire. Oh yeah, that's the whole thing, Laura Angel, 162 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: to go back and look at your handiwork and get 163 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: gratification from seeing what you've done. Yeah, Nancy, Yeah, go ahead. 164 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: That's so typical of a pillar they do that. They 165 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: go back when they're there, they try to take a sivenere, 166 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: but they like to go back because they relived the 167 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: excitement that they felt while it was happening. I also 168 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: wonder did he go back because he realized that he 169 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: dropped that sheep and the knife and was trying to 170 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: figure out if there was a way that he could 171 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: get back inside, you know, thinking about another thing that 172 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: another neighbor told us that Coburger came around and was saying, hey, 173 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: I heard police don't have any leads. They know what happened, 174 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: and what have you heard, And just like you just said, 175 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: Laura Ingle, staying, wow, it's like it's a crime of passion. 176 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: That was too a different neighbor. So he was out 177 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: talking about it with people, but when it would get 178 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: brought up in class, he'd clam up, Oh hey, Laura Ingle, 179 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: I learned something else. You know. Let me throw this 180 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: to Dale Carson with me high profile lawyer joining us 181 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: out of Jacksonville. Former FBI agent and cop in Miami, 182 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: author of a rest Proof Yourself Dale. Another thing we learned, 183 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: and this was after we canvass multiple students at the 184 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: school that they are not allowed to talk about the 185 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: murders in class, in the criminology classes. They're not allowed 186 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: to even bring it up. They will be asked to 187 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: leave if they bring it up in class, and they've 188 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: been told that it's a legal problem if they talk 189 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: about it, which of course it's not. These are students 190 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: at sw or students there at w Yes WSU. That's ridiculous. 191 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: You know, I don't know how it really is. It's 192 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: a it's a violation of the pretty much speech and 193 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:14,439 Speaker 1: that should be a concern to any higher learning institution. Well, 194 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: I'm just wondering, are they afraid? Are the fact is 195 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 1: the faculty afraid that they're gonna be accused of basically 196 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: schooling a serial killer? Well they did? I mean, is 197 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: that what they're worried about? Well they certainly. No. No, 198 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: I disagree with you on that deal. I disagree with 199 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: you because that would be like saying you go to 200 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: law school and you run out and you commit torts 201 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: because you went to a civil procedure, or you are 202 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: a violent criminal because you had criminal law. That's that's crazy. 203 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 1: That's crazy. Talk deal Carson, all right, well, it is 204 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: a fact. Though you're gonna take that lying down. You're 205 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: gonna take what I just said lying down. I wouldn't. 206 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: I'd fight back, but go ahead. I believe that they intend, 207 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: not intentionally, but they certainly did provide the level of 208 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: information that appears on TV and NCIS and other programs 209 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: that provide information to potential killers. And we all worry 210 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: about this. We worry about getting on national news and 211 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: talking about evidence acquisition, how they do it, all of 212 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: these things, because it prepares evil people to address those issues. 213 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 1: The only thing that protects us is the fact that 214 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 1: they're gonna do it anyway, because there's something driving them 215 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: that's very deep in their souls. So it's not like 216 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: they're not going to do it. And clearly individuals who 217 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: have never engaged in this behavior before make mistakes, as 218 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: we're now seeing here. Nancy. When you talked about that 219 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: edict going out for the students, that was at University 220 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,199 Speaker 1: of Idaho. When I was talking to the students, it 221 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: was I was told the ones at WSU. We're told 222 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: they cannot talk about Coburg or right, right, and they 223 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: can't talk about the case, and they can't talk about 224 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: any theory or anything like that. And I mean it's 225 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: it's a real stretch. I mean, you could accuse any 226 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:11,319 Speaker 1: professor or anyone implanting those thoughts and a killer or 227 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: for instance, what about this. I studied domestic relations in 228 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: law school. So if I go and shoot up my house, 229 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: do I then it's my teacher responsible for that? No, 230 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: of course not. That's just way too attenuated. There's not 231 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: annexus between the crimes crime stories with Nancy Grace. But 232 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: I want to tell you what else we learned last night. 233 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: We learned that a lot of people would see Coburger, 234 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: but only walking in and out. He never wants from 235 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: anybody we talked to. Was spotted bringing a woman a 236 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: girlfriend into the apartment or even walking with them in 237 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: the car with them. Never Okay. Chris mcdonnah joining me 238 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: from the Cold Case Foundation. He's the director, former side, 239 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: former homicide detective, and host of the interview Room. What 240 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: do you make of that, Chris? Not surprising fancy. We 241 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: know this individual obviously has very difficult time creating relationships. 242 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: The fact that there's no obvious relationship also makes us 243 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: think about, Okay, is there a sexual component to this. 244 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: We're talking a lot about looking for them, but we're 245 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: missing what we would call in the investigative process signature, 246 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: and that would be the behavior that goes beyond the 247 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: actions necessary to successfully commit this climb. We're seeing a 248 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: lot of signature after it's come to the play here, 249 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: and the fact that the university is maybe trying to 250 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: quash that actually is detrimental to the investigation and quite 251 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: frankly plays into the hand of the perpetrator. Guys, so 252 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: much as happening fast and furious. Now criminalists all over 253 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: are analyzing Koburger's quote amateur mistakes. I'm calling him a 254 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: text book criminologist Cheryl McCollum, because when I say textbook, 255 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: I mean he read a lot of books about criminology, 256 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: about committing crimes. And I really do believe at this 257 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: juncture until we find out something else that as I 258 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: mentioned before in You and I discussed, he just wasn't 259 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: getting enough of a thrill from reading about it and 260 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: talking about it and talking to criminals and actually having 261 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: students write essays. Oh, Kelly, remember last night. We also 262 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: learned that there were shared docs where Coburger reportedly was 263 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: having people write about the perfect crime and reading that. 264 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 1: So I think, Cheryl, and again I'm a JD, not 265 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: an MD, that it was no longer fulfilling him and 266 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: he actually had to try and commit the perfect crime 267 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: very well. Be you're talking about seven years. This is 268 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: what he concentrated on at a higher educational level. Seven 269 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: years he has studied. So to me, there's two points 270 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: I want to make. One, you can read all the 271 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: books you won't do on parenting, but until that baby's 272 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: putting your arms and you're taken home by yourself, you've 273 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,439 Speaker 1: got no idea what you're in for. And that's just 274 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: the fact. You study all you want, But that doesn't 275 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 1: make you sleep, deprive, that doesn't make you fearful of 276 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: sis and different things that are not really applicable until 277 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: that baby's with you. The same as going to be 278 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: for him. He had no idea of the sound, the force, 279 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: the you know, the dog got in his way. Ethan 280 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: woke up all of these factors that came to be 281 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: that he did not count on or plan for it. 282 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: Is a very different thing when you put something in 283 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: action versus reading it in a book. Well, it's like 284 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: a carpenter who forgets to put his hammer back in out. 285 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: You know you can't do something like that, which you 286 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: obviously did. And Cheryl, I call you magic Cheryl now 287 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 1: because you really do understand the dynamic here in a 288 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 1: way that I have frankly never heard before, which is 289 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: the bacon of cake syndrome, where you have read the 290 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: recipe but you can't really put a cake together unless 291 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: you really know what you're doing, and you're a baker. 292 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: And that's what's happened in this case. That's right going on, Nancy, 293 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: there's a second thing going on. Everybody right now is 294 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,439 Speaker 1: talking about doctor Ramslin. Well, let me tell you something. 295 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 1: How much time have I spent in Sunday school and 296 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: in church? And there's a book sealed with how you're 297 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: supposed to be I know the playbook. I know what's 298 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: supposed to happen, But it has to be in me 299 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 1: whether or not I'm going to be a good person. Hey, guys, 300 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 1: hold on, hold on. We've compared the murders to making 301 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: a cake, to raising a babe, to a carpenter and 302 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: now we somehow drag in the Bible. But I'm hearing 303 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: in my ear Laura Ingle has breaking knees, Senior correspondent 304 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: fox Knews Channel, Laura, tell me what you know. Well, 305 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,919 Speaker 1: there is the thought here that this may not have 306 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 1: been his first time. Right, We've all wondered could he 307 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 1: have committed this crime allegedly on his first try, And 308 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 1: so because of that, everybody has wondered has he done 309 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: this before? It is being looked at. I have spoken 310 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 1: to federal and local law enforcement here on the East 311 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: coast in Pennsylvania and Washington that are looking at that. 312 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: We know that there they are double checking and circling 313 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: back where are the cold cases where there are no suspects. 314 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: Now that he has been arrested, he's been fingerprinted, presumably 315 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: in Coodus. They are double checking that, and we don't 316 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 1: have any hits yet, but we are looking in to 317 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 1: that and it could be a small crime, it could 318 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: be a large crime. But it is definitely something that 319 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: is going on right now as we speak, and we're 320 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: waiting for any kind of hit, not just in the 321 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania area, but probably in Washington state as well. And 322 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: I know can it be a virtual crime? Could it 323 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: have been on his computers that have been seized where 324 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: he gets on games and bills people to see how 325 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: that actually works out? And the software writers certainly are 326 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: not going to know all the ins and outs of 327 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: bathing that way. Well, you know what I do know 328 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:48,199 Speaker 1: from the neighbors that the fans sees a ton of 329 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: stuff out of Coburger's apartment. Guys, I know. The thing 330 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: we learned last night is that the County jail here 331 00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 1: where he's being held as called the County Hotel. I 332 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: call it camp Flower because I've learned that they offer 333 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: the soothing music to wake the inmates up, that they 334 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: order pizza sometimes for the inmates, that they have outdoor time. 335 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,719 Speaker 1: They have access to the library, which of course they 336 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: should for their legal preparation. But it sounds like a 337 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: pretty sweet deal. There are about forty two was at 338 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: forty two or forty seven Kelly inmates at the County jail. 339 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: He's one of them. But it sounds like a pretty cushy, 340 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 1: pretty cushy jail to me, and kind of like, you know, 341 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 1: a bigger version of the Mayberry Jail. And I'm not 342 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 1: knocking it because where I grew up, it was the 343 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: same way. But if and when he is convicted and 344 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 1: goes into the state system, it's a whole another ball game. 345 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 1: I want to talk more about the parking lot we 346 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 1: saw last night outside of Coburger's place. There is just 347 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: really no way that the neighbors couldn't have seen the 348 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,679 Speaker 1: white and lawn try it's part white in front of 349 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: his apartment every single night. But I asked a neighbor, 350 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: and I was afraid the neighbor is going to get 351 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: mad at me. But the neighbor said, yeah, we saw it, 352 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 1: but we just didn't put it together. I guess you 353 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: see what you want to see, and you know what 354 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: you want to know. I've seen that so many times. 355 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, Oh, absolutely, And you know, Nancy, they want 356 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: to feel safe. They don't want to believe that there's 357 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 1: a murderer mass murder living one wall from them. They 358 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: don't probably think like law enforcement to say they're searching 359 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: for that car. A lot of times when something has 360 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: always been there, like you know your neighbor's red truck 361 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: or greenviewick, you're not ever looking at it again. It's 362 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: just like when you look at your watch. You're not 363 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: really looking for what time it is. You're looking for 364 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: what time it's not because you're supposed to be somewhere 365 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: at a certain time. They weren't looking for something that's 366 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,439 Speaker 1: always been there. Now we've learned that the search want 367 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,679 Speaker 1: for the apartment for Coburger's apartment has been sealed, and 368 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,479 Speaker 1: it's likely going to stay sealed, according to the judge, 369 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: for about the next two months. Now, I wonder where 370 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 1: the two months timeline came from. And it's sealed over 371 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: quote serious and imminent threat. It also says premature public 372 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: disclosure could threaten law enforcement, the integrity of the investigation, 373 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 1: and public safety. Now, the judge also has a caveat 374 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,439 Speaker 1: that says it could be lifted earlier, but it's going 375 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: to be at least two months. Who has any ideal, 376 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: Laura Ingle, why the search warrant for Coburger's apartment has 377 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: been sealed? Yeah, that document that was published and we've 378 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: was put out on December thirtieth, and just what you read, 379 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: I mean, they've got it sealed. But they did make 380 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: the judgment of caveats that it could be unfealed prior 381 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: if there was reason but for right now. They want 382 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: to hold the integrity just like we've seen for these 383 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: last seven weeks, why they wanted to keep the information 384 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:06,199 Speaker 1: that probabill cause sealed up. So I'm super curious. I mean, 385 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: we're talking about Brian Coberger's apartment, and we've often talked 386 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: about the white Alantra, and when we were in Pennsylvania 387 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 1: after his arrest, we drove around looking for lots to 388 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: you know, maybe police lots where that car is probably 389 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: held in a garage somewhere. But with the reporting that 390 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: we've done covering crime stories as we have, we know 391 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 1: about m back technology, about the new technologies that are 392 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: used to pull out fibers and hairs and any kind 393 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: of trace of DNA in a vehicle. So if there 394 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: is that kind of information that's out yet we don't know, 395 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 1: that could be something that we could be looking for. 396 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 1: That's what I'm looking for as we moved down the road, 397 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: when we look at the evidence from the car and 398 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 1: from his home, which is going to be a huge 399 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: list of items. You know, that's interesting what Laura Ingle 400 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: just said, foxny's correspondent joining us in is being theorized. 401 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: And I think it's correct that there is very likely 402 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: more DNA evidence that we don't know about because it's 403 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: most likely being processed right now. So we talk about 404 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: an in fact. They're amazing. Cheryl McCollum describe what an 405 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 1: im fact can do. It can extract DNA off items 406 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 1: like a rock or a rope or clothing at a 407 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: level that a bugle swab just cannot do. And Nancy, 408 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 1: I can guarantee you they already have DNA off there 409 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 1: because the killer he would have had to grab them 410 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: on their bedclothes and hold them down. He touched the 411 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: bed sheet. They have more DNA. There's no doubt in 412 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: my mind. I sure hope. So Cheryl, go ahead, Dale, 413 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: it's certainly in the car and that's where that can 414 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: really payoff because clearly he tried to clean the car. 415 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: There's evidence of that fact from Pennsylvania, and so there's 416 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: a reason you try to intensely clean your car. There's 417 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: a reason for that. And with these new sophisticated things 418 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 1: which we are cerentially a vacuum cleaner, are really good 419 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: filter in it you extract all that data or that 420 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: DNA from their carpets or wherever the hell else it 421 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,239 Speaker 1: is because there's little doubt. As Cheryl said, you know, 422 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,399 Speaker 1: there's plenty of DNA, it just takes a minute to 423 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,919 Speaker 1: find it all. And of course the initial emphasis was 424 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: on identifying the guy and arresting him to make sure 425 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: he didn't kill somebody else or get away. And so 426 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: they've accomplished that. Now they can take all the time 427 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: they want in order to solidify the case against Stoneburger 428 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 1: in a way that makes it evident that he's going 429 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 1: to suffer the depth penalty. And that's called the Bardole method. 430 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: Go ahead, because I'm really thinking about the car and 431 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: where the trace evidence could be inside the car. And 432 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: when I circle back to you, Cheryl, I want to 433 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 1: hear more detailed description of how an emvact works when 434 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,199 Speaker 1: it comes to a car, specifically, do they have to 435 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:53,919 Speaker 1: cut the carpet out? Do they have to cut out 436 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: the upholstery? Upholstery? But Chris mcdonnaugh, back to what you 437 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,199 Speaker 1: were saying, go ahead. So it's called the Bardole method, Nancy, 438 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: And yeah, you can also get you can also get 439 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,120 Speaker 1: DNA touch DNA from jewelry on any of the victims. 440 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: Let's say the suspect you had an interaction during the 441 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: struggle where if he touched even items they were wearing, 442 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: that method through the MVAC can pull that touch DNA 443 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,640 Speaker 1: off of that. Yeah, I keep thinking about the car, 444 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: but in reality, right behind me is a treasure trove 445 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: of evidence. And Cheryl McCollum, you and I were going 446 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 1: back and forth yesterday off air about all the red 447 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 1: sticky seals across the front door where obvious. It's like evidence. 448 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 1: When you seal evidence, say DNA. You take a buhicle 449 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 1: squab swab and you put it in an envelope and 450 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: you send it to the crime lab. You seal it. 451 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 1: Don't you remember how royals years ago would put lax 452 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: on an envelope and they put their seal with their 453 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: initial or whatever their mascot would be there, and if 454 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: that were broken, then the recipient would know someone had 455 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: read the message or even replaced it. Same thing with 456 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: crime scene evidence. You close it up in an envelope, 457 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,239 Speaker 1: a brown manilla envelope, and you put tape over it 458 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,199 Speaker 1: and you sign on the tape or around the tape 459 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 1: your name, your rank, and the date and time when 460 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: it's opened up. It is then recorded who, what time 461 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: and when it was opened up. And then after the 462 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 1: testing is done, it's actually resealed again. Same thing with 463 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: this house right behind me. The front door is covered 464 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: with red tape horizontally placed on the door to show 465 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: if anyone else has entered and broken the tape. It's 466 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: really important because they may be going back in there 467 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 1: because we've seen the lights right Sydney. We see the 468 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: light go on and off in that bottom right room, 469 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: so somebody has been in there for whatever reason. Go ahead, 470 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, Well, that's exactly what they've done. They're going 471 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: to maintain the integrity so that the prosecution and the 472 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: defense knows exactly who came in and out of that 473 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: house on what day and what time, and then they'll 474 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: be able to show the corresponding evidence to show the 475 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: reason they went in the house again and what they 476 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: were able to retrieve. Now getting back to the imbat 477 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: and the bargo message as well. This machine looks like 478 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: a very miniature like carpet cleaner, like a steam cleaner, 479 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: and it shoots down the solution that's exact same time 480 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: that it sucked it back up on this cotton filter 481 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: so that it can be then developed into a full 482 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: profile of the person's DNA. Then they take that profile obviously, 483 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: and they put it into CODIS and they do it 484 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: in the ancestry if they need to. And in this case, 485 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: my gut feeling is they use the private lab like 486 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: off Frum to do the profile because it was done 487 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: so fast, and like Dale said, now they're not in 488 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: a hurry. They don't have to rush with the sheets 489 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: or the clothing, or the jewelry or even the dog's 490 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: collar for that matter. Anything they believe that this killer touched, 491 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: they can potentially get DNA off of it. You know, 492 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: you said Athram, I agree, and there's absolutely nothing wrong 493 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: with the state crime labs. But sometimes some private DNA 494 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: analysts such as Autham or paramind nano labs, they specialize 495 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: in degraded DNA, mixed DNA, DNA that has mud in it, 496 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: that has other particles in it other than the DNA 497 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: they're looking for. That's their specialty, and they're not overloaded 498 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: like state crime labs. They can do it more quickly. 499 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 1: So I think that's what's happening. And as I always say, 500 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: and you'll love this care and start when you don't 501 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: know a horse, look at his track record. If this 502 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: guy left his sheath from the murder weapon beside a 503 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: victim on the bed. What else did he do? What 504 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: other mistakes did he make? Beside that? The fact that 505 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: his cell phone was cut off en route to the 506 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: crime scene and then turned on on that lonely dirt road, 507 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: bumpy dirt road in the middle of and I he 508 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: turns it back on. That's an omission. It's not actively 509 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: doing something, but it's if it's out of character, Like 510 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: if he, like myself, leave my phone on all the 511 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: time and I charge it at night, turned on, I 512 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: leave it on all the time, and then at that 513 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: particular moment he turns it off. That's uncharacteristic, and that 514 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: omission proves something here in Stark. Yeah, Nancy, for we 515 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: kept talking about you know he's a student, and you 516 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: know he's studying this. You have to get into graduate school, 517 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: you have to be so and first such a smart by. 518 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: He made so many stupid mistakes and didn't really take 519 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: it through clearly when I had this image that he 520 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: kept rehearsing in his mind. But even the fact that 521 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: he's surrounded by blood, right, how is he going to 522 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: get all of that out of his car? It's gutty 523 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: bit on his clothes somewhere, on his shoes, on the 524 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: gas pedal on it's there he left the seat. I 525 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: mean he made he didn't think of small details that 526 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: you would have assumed he was sure about and careful 527 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 1: of that time stories with Nancy Grace to Dale Carson. 528 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: It was either Dale or Chris mcdonna that first brought 529 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: up the idea on the killer having a quote layer 530 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 1: behind the house, and we went up there and examined 531 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: so many spots where the killer could have sat and 532 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: looked right in to the bedroom windows of the girls. 533 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 1: Do you think anybody on the panel that he wore 534 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: a protective outfit and then discarded the clothes on his 535 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: escape route, or would he be stupid enough to take 536 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: the clothes home and try to wash them? Jump in Chris, 537 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: I think he came prepared for that evening and after 538 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: the incident. I believe he did discard those items in 539 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: various locations, which is consistent with the idea of he 540 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: had a fantasy purpose here. What that is we don't 541 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: know yet, but he was very consistent and you know 542 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: the overkill after the scene. What he did you know 543 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: when he left? To your point show, I'm going to 544 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: be really surprised if they find those particular items in 545 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 1: the house, with the exception of the knife, What about 546 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,800 Speaker 1: the shoes? What about the shoes, Chris, I'm going to 547 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,919 Speaker 1: be surprised, I think, Cheryl, will you jump in here. 548 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:23,399 Speaker 1: I think it's going to be really surprising if he 549 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: still has no shoes. But it's possible, but I'm not 550 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,839 Speaker 1: going with it yet. Agree or disagree, Dale Carson. I've 551 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 1: handled a number of these cases, and typically the individual 552 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 1: is wearing a jumpsuit and takes all of that clothing 553 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: off and throws it in a dump truck. And we 554 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 1: have a significant period of time between the time that 555 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: that white car was at least identified to the public 556 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: and the actual killing. So there's plenty of opportunity for 557 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 1: those things to be in a dump somewhere, but it's 558 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: going to be too difficult to find them in the dump, 559 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,839 Speaker 1: so they're not going to do that sort of processing. 560 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,919 Speaker 1: But the idea that he kept stuff, you know, that's 561 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: certainly consistent with serial killers, but I don't know that 562 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: it's consistent here because, as one of your other guests, 563 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,879 Speaker 1: Joseph says, you know, if there's a fracture in that night, 564 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: that's still in one of the bones in the body. 565 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: They can find that fracture and connect the two together. 566 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: He can't be that dumb, although I will say anyone 567 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 1: with any sense would have left his phone on and 568 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: back at his apartment and that way you have no 569 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,359 Speaker 1: condant you guys. I want to circle back to why 570 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:34,879 Speaker 1: there is a serious threat damage and premature public disclosure 571 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 1: of this a warrant, This warrant could threaten law enforcement. 572 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 1: Why could they possibly put that those words in the 573 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: judge's decision to seal the search want for Coburger's apartment? 574 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: Why would they do that? Cheryl McCollum, Nancy Billy. Time 575 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 1: I've heard of that happening is if somebody has connections 576 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 1: to gain or drug activity. Now I do know that 577 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,800 Speaker 1: he's had a past addiction to heroin. If he got 578 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 1: back on some type of drug and was meeting somebody, 579 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 1: you know, different locations, and again his phone will tell that, 580 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,399 Speaker 1: his activity will tell that, his bank account will tell that. 581 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: You know, maybe they were afraid that this person may 582 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,879 Speaker 1: have some type of retaliation toward law enforcement, if they 583 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 1: think law enforcement is going to make a connection and 584 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,959 Speaker 1: come after them as a secondary maneuver. Well, it could 585 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 1: be novel investigative techniques as well. I'm not sure what 586 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 1: you mean by novel investigative techniques, but I will tell 587 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:34,919 Speaker 1: you this, they're playing it really smartly because they did 588 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 1: not release that PCF of David that talked about DM 589 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: identifying Coburger or in other words, not him by name, 590 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 1: but could describe him to an extent. They did not 591 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,240 Speaker 1: release that until he was in jail to make sure 592 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,839 Speaker 1: he couldn't come back and kill her kill DM. They 593 00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:00,080 Speaker 1: also stated or put it out there that DM and 594 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 1: the f the other roommates he made it. They made 595 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: it very clear they were on the first floor. For 596 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: in fact, they were on the second. At least DM 597 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 1: was on the second floor with the ability to watch 598 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:16,240 Speaker 1: the killer leave. So they kept that a secret until 599 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 1: after he was behind bars. And I'm wondering if a 600 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 1: similar strategy is not being employed with a search warrant 601 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: for his apartment. Laura, what was next? Well, circling back 602 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,320 Speaker 1: to what you mentioned about the search warrants on page 603 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,760 Speaker 1: two and talking about why these search warrants would be sealed, 604 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 1: they also mentioned the personal privacy that b item two 605 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: on the search warrants the personal privacy interests of the witness, 606 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 1: victims and victims families named in the application filed in 607 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: this cause also supports sealing the documents filed in this matter. 608 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 1: So's it's an impact on law enforcement in public safety, 609 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,759 Speaker 1: but also about the personal privacy. And as we have 610 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 1: seen with the other victims families, we've heard from the 611 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 1: Gonzalvaes family quite a bit. As we know, Ethan Chapin's 612 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 1: family members just basically broke their silence speaking about the 613 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:12,359 Speaker 1: case in a Facebook page, the mother talking about on 614 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 1: an update saying that anything that they have had for 615 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,360 Speaker 1: Ethan is now frozen with the defense. The family of 616 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 1: Ethan Chapin going on to say for us, it involved 617 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 1: two vehicles, ease belonging, and a nice set of golf clubs. 618 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:32,760 Speaker 1: They've met with, prosecutors, handled media inquiries, managed, grieved, talked, 619 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: and continued to try to process what they call their 620 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,359 Speaker 1: new normal. So there is who knows what in those 621 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 1: search warrants that they want to keep private from all 622 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 1: of us as they continue to process these multiple crime scenes. 623 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,080 Speaker 1: And I also want to mention I was asking about 624 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 1: the University of Idaho earlier. We know that classes have 625 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:57,280 Speaker 1: resumed Ethan was a triplet. His brother and sister, Maisie 626 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,360 Speaker 1: and Hunter returned to the campus of University of Idaho 627 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,920 Speaker 1: this week. That could be another reason why you know, 628 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 1: people are being very careful with them. They're going back 629 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 1: to their classes. Can you imagine these three children, these siblings, 630 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 1: these triplets, chose this college. I spoke to the family 631 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,879 Speaker 1: spokesperson for Ethan Chapan this week. They said, these three 632 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 1: chose University of Idaho to be together. They wanted to 633 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,840 Speaker 1: learn together, they wanted to have the college experience together, 634 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 1: and now two are returning without their brother this week. 635 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 1: Laura Engel, that just broke my heart. And then Ethan's 636 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 1: family posted a picture of the triplets when they were 637 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:42,239 Speaker 1: young and just heartbreaking to me. Multiple bombshells emerging from 638 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,840 Speaker 1: the hearing and that was held at the courthouse. It 639 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 1: was called a status conference, but this is what emerged. 640 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 1: Coburger's preliminary hearing, where we will hear more evidence, has 641 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 1: been set for June twenty six at nine am. We 642 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 1: all know that Coburger was in for his status hearing 643 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 1: in an orange T shirt and he told the court 644 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: he waived his right to a speedy trial. That is significant. 645 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 1: Under our constitution, you can demand a speedy trial. You 646 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: don't have to stay in jail for a year before 647 00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,880 Speaker 1: your trial goes to a jury. If a speedy trial 648 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,120 Speaker 1: is demanded, the state has to gather its evidence and 649 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 1: try you in that grand jury term, which is usually 650 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 1: two months and one other. In other words, your trial 651 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,239 Speaker 1: will go down within four to six months if you 652 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 1: file a speedy trial demand. We know that preliminary preliminary 653 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,279 Speaker 1: hearing is set. I'm surprised they're not using a grand 654 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 1: jury instead of a preliminary hearing because the state will 655 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 1: have to show part of its case to the defense 656 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 1: at a preliminary hearing where a grand jury is conducted 657 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:55,399 Speaker 1: in secret. Right now, we expect the arrest, I mean 658 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 1: the search warrants for Coburger's apartment to be released on 659 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:04,960 Speaker 1: March one. We're hoping they were released before then. Behind me, 660 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:09,359 Speaker 1: even in the rain and it's really cold out here, 661 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,880 Speaker 1: people are continuing to come and leave flowers in memory 662 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:19,680 Speaker 1: of the four victims that died right behind us, and 663 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 1: we will do the same. Nancy Gray's comes story signing 664 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 1: off Goodbye friend,