1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: My Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 4 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: we're back with part two of our series about the 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: legendary Irish hero Finn McCool. If you haven't heard part one, 6 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: you should go back and listen to that one first. 7 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: This one will make a lot more sense if you do. 8 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: But at the end of the last episode, we promised 9 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: you that this episode would be the one that's all thumb, because, 10 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: of course, one of the great legends about Finn McCool 11 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: is the so called thumb of knowledge. We teased it 12 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: a few times in the previous episode. But but now 13 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 1: we're finally here. We're finally to the thumb factory. That's 14 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: all right. Finn is not merely a warrior and a 15 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: hunter and in a in a defender of his people. 16 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: He also has the gift of divination. His prescience puts 17 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: him in keeping with the likes of Paula Trades, but 18 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: he doesn't take spice or enter a Prana Bindu trance 19 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: in order to see the future, or is it sometimes 20 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: described to gain wisdom. Instead, he puts his thumb in 21 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: his mouth is the most heroic thing I can picture. 22 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: I mean, imagine the movie poster. It's like your your 23 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: action movie hero. They've got the sword, their hair is 24 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: blowing in the wind, maybe their armor is splattered with 25 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: blood and mud. And also he's just got his thumb 26 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: in his mouth. Now. In the last part of the series, 27 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: we referenced a few works by a scholar named James McKillop, 28 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: who has written extensively on Finn McCool and on Irish 29 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: smith and legend. For example, I cited him when I 30 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: was talking about the version of the Giants Causeways story 31 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: that involves uh, that involves the the Ben and Donner Giant, 32 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: the rival Giant being replaced with one named Kukullen, which 33 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: is totally confusing because that's the name of a different 34 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: Irish folk hero. But this was also the version of 35 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: the story where Finn McCool bites off the rival giant's 36 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: finger when the giant is tricked into putting the finger 37 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: into his mouth. But I think you were also reading 38 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: something by James McKillop on the on the origins of 39 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: this thumb story, right, yeah, yeah. According to McKillop. The 40 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: The details on how the thumb is utilized very according 41 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: to the you know, the different tellings. Sometimes it's described 42 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: as a sucking of the thumb, much like an infant 43 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: would would suck on a thumber fingers. Other Times it's 44 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: described as a chewing of the thumb, and sometimes it's 45 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: specifically said that the thumb is placed behind the upper teeth, 46 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: which I guess is something that is is more or 47 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: less happening with any kind of infantile sucking of the 48 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 1: thumb anyway, but that they seem to make us sometimes 49 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: the point is made that is like the thumb is 50 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: coming into contact with the palette and pressing. All right. 51 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: So as amusing as the image of an action hero 52 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: sucking his thumb might be, uh, the idea of an 53 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: action hero biting his thumb, that's pretty close, but that 54 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: seems a little more maybe on the money, especially when 55 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: you take into account some historical considerations, because the idea 56 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 1: of biting his thumb immediately made me think of the 57 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: classically confusing scene from Shakespeare the Infamous do you bite 58 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 1: your thumbatus serve the scene from Romeo and Juliet rob 59 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: do you remember coming across this in in school and 60 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: having no idea what to make of it. Yes, I 61 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: distinctly remember this, probably when we were watching at an 62 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: adaptation of it um and uh, yeah, there's the whole 63 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: scene with I by my thumb at you, and I 64 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: remember everyone getting a real kick out of that. Yeah, 65 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: it's like it's one of those where you know what 66 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: it means, but you don't know what it means, Like 67 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: you get the gist, but you don't understand what they're 68 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: talking about. Because so the scene, for anybody who hasn't 69 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: read it, it's in Romeo and Juliet, Act one, Scene one. 70 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: We get servants of the two rival houses, the Montague 71 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: in the Capulets. They run into each other in the 72 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: street and they're they're trying to stir things up there. 73 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:07,839 Speaker 1: They're trying to to provoke a fight because they hate 74 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: each other. And so a character from one house says, 75 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: do you bite your thumbat us, sir? And the guy 76 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: from the other house says, I do bite my thumb, sir. 77 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: Do you bite your thumb at us, sir? And then 78 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: he uh. The guy who's biting his thumb lead leans 79 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: aside to his friend and he says is the law 80 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 1: on our side. If I say I and his friend 81 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: says no, it is not. So he says, no, sir, 82 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: I do not bite my thumb at you, sir. But 83 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: I bite my thumb sir. So it's it's sort of like, 84 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: I'm just punching the air. And if you happen to 85 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: walk into the air that I'm punching, you know, so 86 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: be it. I think the implication is that if he 87 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: says outright that he is biting his thumb at the 88 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: other guy, then if a fight breaks out, it will 89 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: be considered his fault because he provoked it. So he's 90 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: just saying no, I'm just biting my thumb in general, 91 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: all right, makes sense, makes sense. It's kind of like 92 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: if here is, if there's a difference between flashing the 93 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: middle thing or and making a middle finger and scratching 94 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: your face, you have plausible deniability and saying I know 95 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: I wasn't flipping you off. I was. I just on 96 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: the side of my face itches and I needed to 97 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: relieve it. And my see, my middle finger is my 98 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: longest finger, and therefore it is the ideal finger to 99 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 1: use for scratching. Said notes right, Oh, oh, it's itching again. Oh, 100 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: here I go again. Oh now both sides are itching. Yeah. 101 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: Uh so yeah, that that is clearly what's going on 102 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 1: in the scene. But it is interesting to ponder, like, 103 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: what is what is the origin of this thumb biting thing, 104 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: because of course this was localized to specific cultures, but 105 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: it's clear what it means in context. It seems to 106 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: bite one's thumb at someone was a gesture of disrespect 107 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: or contempt. It was kind of like giving the finger. 108 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: It was. It was a way of saying you stink. 109 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 1: And in trying to find something about the origins of 110 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: this gesture, I found an exerpt from a book called 111 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: How to Behave Badly in Elizabethan, England by a British 112 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 1: story named Ruth Goodman. And uh she writes as follows quote. 113 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: In modern sicily, you can still see a form of 114 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: this gesture and use an upright thumb held so that 115 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: the pad points outwards, is tucked behind the top front teeth, 116 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: and then flicked forwards out of the mouth towards the 117 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: intended insulte. Okay, so are you picturing that It's not 118 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: the thumb going straight into the mouth as you might 119 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: think with like when a child is sucking their thumb instead. 120 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: It's like the thumb kind of goes upward into the 121 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: mouth behind the top teeth, and then you kind of 122 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: flick the thumb out pad out. But then Goodman also writes, 123 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: I've also seen a version in action on the outskirts 124 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: of Venice, although I don't know if it was a 125 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: native Venetian performing it, where the pad of the thumb 126 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: was placed horizontally between the top and bottom teeth in 127 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: a bite, and then flicked out, rotating as it went 128 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: so that the bitten pad was thrust forwards. And so 129 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 1: because of the the the Finn McCool biting the thumb thing, 130 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 1: I started to wonder if there were any in tristing 131 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: connections between this gesture we see in Shakespeare that appears 132 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: to have mostly gone out of style today, though maybe 133 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: you might still see it in isolated cases here or there, 134 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: such as in Sicily or somewhere in Italy. But I'm 135 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: gonna have to say that for me, this investigation was 136 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: a failure. I couldn't find any evidence of a connection 137 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: between these two story elements, though it did raise interesting 138 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: questions on its own, like where would this type of 139 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: thumb biting gesture come from and uh from what I 140 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: turned up. Like many obscene gestures, its origins are unknown, 141 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: but I did find a book that had some interesting 142 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: informed guesses, and this was in an academic book called 143 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: Historical Social Psychology by Kenneth Gurgin and Mary Gurgan published 144 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: by Taylor and Francis. And so, first of all, they 145 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: dispense with a few alternatives. They say, well, you know, 146 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: maybe the thumb biting uh insult gesture has something to 147 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: do with thumb sucking, but that doesn't really fit what's 148 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: described in the Shakespearean usage. And they say the same 149 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,239 Speaker 1: goes for the act of biting the knuckle of your thumb, 150 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: which is a gesture that sometimes people still used today, 151 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: but it seems to to mean something different. Biting the 152 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: knuckle of your thumb seems to denote someone desperately trying 153 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: to contain rage, and that also it also just doesn't 154 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: fit what's described in these sources. So instead they argued 155 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: that the thumb biting described by Shakespeare is something that 156 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: has generally fallen out of fashion today, it's mostly not 157 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: used anymore, and that in order to understand it we 158 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: would need to look to the historical context. So what's 159 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: the context. Well, I thought their answer was pretty interesting. 160 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: They write quote. The clue, it seems, is to be 161 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 1: found in the fact that during the latter half of 162 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,439 Speaker 1: the sixteenth century, men were in the habit of wearing gloves, 163 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: and these were usually removed prior to any confrontation, not 164 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 1: unlike the present day Irish habit of taking off one's 165 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: jacket to show that one means business. In fact, the 166 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: practice of removing and throwing down glove had become ritualized 167 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,439 Speaker 1: as a challenge long before Shakespeare's time, and it is 168 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: common knowledge that medieval knights use this device to invite 169 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: each other into the lists. It seems likely that the 170 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: medieval convention, or some version of it, was still around 171 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: in a stylized form during Shakespeare's time, but it had 172 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: become abbreviated to the point where an intention movement of 173 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: removing one's gloves would suffice. So how does an early 174 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: modern hater remove a glove? Well, one way would be 175 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: to remove it with the opposite hand, but another way 176 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: would be to bite at one of the fingers of 177 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: the glove with your teeth and then pull the hand 178 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,719 Speaker 1: away from inside. You've probably seen people take gloves off 179 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 1: this way. The latter method, they claim, is well attested, 180 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 1: and it was not unusual to remove a glove this 181 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: way by by biting the thumb and pulling the hand out. 182 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: Though when I was trying to imagine doing this myself, 183 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: to just sort of give it a quick thought experiment check, 184 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: I think you probably can do it. Though it seems 185 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 1: to me be easier to get get your hand out 186 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: of the glove by biting one of the long fingers 187 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: than by biting the thumb. But I'm no no glove expert. 188 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 1: Well this makes sense. Yeah, the gloves are off. This 189 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: is the classic challenge, and I had to We had 190 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 1: to check this with seth Um, whose Simpsons knowledge knows 191 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: no bounds. But on on the Simpsons we had the 192 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: episode where we had the glove slap where Homer is 193 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: challenging everyone to a duel in town by slapping them 194 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: with his glove, which he has removed. Right, So in 195 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 1: this case, the authors suggest their hypothesis is that over time, 196 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: this familiar, highly salient activity of taking off a glove 197 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: to demand a duel could be abbreviated to a simple 198 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: gesture of just biting your thumb to show scorn or 199 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: disrespect whether or not you're actually wearing a glove. They 200 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 1: do say they could find no direct evidence supporting this hypothesis, 201 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: though it does fit well with the observation that the 202 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 1: gesture mostly fell into disuse when dueling disappeared as a 203 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: legitimate way settling beef. So anyway, I think interesting question 204 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: on its own, but I couldn't really find that this 205 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: much informs Finn McCool right right. I think that's one 206 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: of the things that makes the Thumb of Knowledge here 207 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: so fascinating is that it does, to a certain extent, 208 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: feel like kind of an island in mythology, Like it's 209 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: something that it's not like there's something universal about heroes 210 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: um biting or sucking their thumb or placing their thumb 211 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: in their mouth. But but we'll get into some of 212 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: the connections that that are in place in a bit here. 213 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: The next question is, of course, well, why, what's the story. 214 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: There's gotta be a story. There's always a story behind 215 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,199 Speaker 1: why something is the way it is in mythology, and 216 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 1: the main origin story for the miraculous thumb of Finn 217 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: McCool is the salmon of knowledge. Salmon is in the 218 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: the fish, the delicious fish where we're familiar with and uh. 219 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: McKillop points out that, okay um. In addition to this, 220 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 1: the salmon has plenty of mystical connotations, uh, in part 221 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: due to uh it's observed leaping out of the water. 222 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: So it wasn't a stretch to think there might be 223 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: something magical about a salmon. Uh. It's not like an 224 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: inherently secular animal or mundane animal. It is one that 225 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: that that already has all these various mystical connotations and uh, 226 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: and so it makes sense that it might play into 227 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: such a story. Rob can I reveal though, when I 228 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: was trying to say, okay, are there are other magical 229 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: salmon out there? So I google the phrase magical salmon 230 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,719 Speaker 1: and the first result is, of course, Chef Paul Prudom's 231 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 1: salmon Magic Seasoning Blend. There you go. I'm sure it 232 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: was a magical um recipe that that he he earned 233 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: by catching a magical fish. Um. Because that's that's that's 234 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: basically what we have going on here. So the stories goes, 235 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: do you have a druid by the name of Finnegus 236 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: who lives on the banks of a river and he 237 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: has long waited for and and and intends to catch 238 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: the salmon of knowledge. There are other versions of the 239 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 1: story that say that he's he's camping out at a waterfall, 240 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: or that there's some sort of a you know, some 241 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 1: sort of an underground UH reservoir sort of situation going on. 242 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 1: But the idea is that at some point this uh, 243 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: this marvelous salmon is going to present itself and if 244 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 1: the druid can catch it, he can eat it and 245 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: he can gain all of that wonderful wisdom for himself. 246 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: Now is it ever explained how he knows that the salmon, 247 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: the salmon of knowledge, will give him all this wisdom? 248 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,959 Speaker 1: Or is that just he is just something he knows? Well, 249 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: there are a few different um there's at least one 250 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: really good UH story beyond behind this, and this is account. 251 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: This is an account mentioned by Patricia Monaghan in uh 252 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: Celtic Mythology and Folklore. According to this author, the fish 253 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: is sometimes identified is Fenton, a bard who lived many 254 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: lifetimes and many incarnations. Us he has all of this 255 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: accumulated knowledge and in this incarnation he just happens to 256 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: be a salmon. And so I guess you know, through 257 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: the druid I arts. This particular druid knows hey, I 258 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: can catch him this time, and if I eat him, 259 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: and I'll gain all of that knowledge. So it's it's 260 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: literally that I'm gonna eat your brains and gain your knowledge, 261 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: right well, you know, but not maybe not the brains, 262 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: maybe just all that delicious. Uh maybe I don't know. 263 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: I don't I'm not sure if you have to eat 264 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: like absolutely all of the fish, or you have to 265 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: eat the brain, but you're already cooking a salmon, so 266 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: you might as well make a meal out of it. 267 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, I actually I guess as as 268 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: well as we're about to learn it's not just the brains, 269 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: and in fact that it may be a little more 270 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: subtle than that, because what what apparently happens is, uh 271 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: the druid finally succeeded in catching it after waiting for 272 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: it for seven years, which incidentally, it's been seven years 273 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: since Finn McCool was born. And seven year old Finn 274 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: McCool is hanging out there at the druid camp with him, 275 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: and you know he's shadowing him, uh you know, as 276 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: you do. And so Finnegus he's caught the salmon. He's overjoyed, 277 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: so he starts cooking the salm, puts it on a spit. 278 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: It's roasting there, and Finns trying to help out, and 279 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: he accidentally burns his thumb on the cooking fish. And 280 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: what does he do? What do you do in your 281 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: your thumb is is burnt while you immediately seek to 282 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: soothe that pain by thrusting your thumb into your mouth. 283 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: And Finn does just this, and when he does, he 284 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: inherits the power of the salmon before the old druid 285 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: even gets a shot at it. So it's the oil 286 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: from the salmon that contains the knowledge you. It's not 287 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: eat your brains and gain your knowledge. It's eat your 288 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: omega threes and gain your knowledge right right now. In 289 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: some variations, however, he gains he said to gain the 290 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: power of divination by eating magical hazel nuts, or he 291 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: gains it from the salmon because the salmon ate magical 292 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: hazel nuts. Uh. There's also one version in which he 293 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: enters a fairy mound. Uh. Fairy mounds are these sircular 294 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: ancient dwellings uh you know from from from ancient Ireland 295 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: that were later associated with supernatural tales and you know, 296 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: stuff like the to authora done and uh So. Anyway, 297 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: he enters a fairy ground, he gains the magical ability 298 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: from three fairy women he encounters there, but then as 299 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: he's leaving, he accidentally smashes his thumb in the door 300 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: of the fairy mound. But it seems like the fish 301 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: version of the story, the Salmon of Knowledge is the 302 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: primary tale. It's the most popular now. It's It's often 303 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: stated that it's not just putting the thumb in his 304 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: mouth that sets off the divination trance, but that Finn 305 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: also has to recite a kind of poetic chanting incantation 306 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: um called the I think probably pronouncing this wrong, but 307 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: the teenem latia laeda uh and uh. This also may 308 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: have some connection to hazel nuts, according to McKellop in 309 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: the Dictionary of Celtic Mythology. McKellop adds that the thumb 310 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: allowed him to enter quote and I love this an 311 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: altered visionary state in which he could see past, present, 312 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: and future, in which he could see present. Wow, I 313 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: mean that that is a real Well maybe maybe it 314 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 1: means he could see all of the present, like things 315 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 1: that are not present with him at the present or 316 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: to see the present clearly. I don't know. There's another 317 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 1: interesting wrinkle here. Uh. The Celtic Languages and Literature professor 318 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: Patrick k Ford suggests that one connection here may be 319 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 1: that the old Irish word for thumb was order, which 320 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: may also signify a morsel, particularly a morsel of meat 321 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: that you would you know, consume, And McKillop points out 322 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: that that the consumption of a morsel of magical flesh 323 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 1: is a common folkloric more motif. So if I'm to 324 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: understand this correctly, uh, the interpretation would mean that fins 325 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: morsel slash thumb becomes the sacred flesh by coming into 326 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: burning contact with the cooking sacred fish of the salmon 327 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 1: of wisdom. But is it also suggesting that there may 328 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: possibly have been the kind of semantic contagion in the 329 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,880 Speaker 1: evolution of this story where originally the story was about 330 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,719 Speaker 1: eating a magical morsel of meat, but because you can 331 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 1: use the same word for morsel of meat and thumb, 332 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: that it came to represent a thumb in later tellings. Yeah, 333 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: that's absolutely the sense I'm getting from this. Yeah, so 334 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: we have, you know, sanantics and linguistic shift going on 335 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: here in addition to just you know, a cool story 336 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: of of magic fish consumption. Oh, this is great because 337 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 1: I'm imagining other variations of of that kind of evolution 338 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: of a story like the the the thumb slash morsel 339 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: makes sense because like a little morsel of meat that 340 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 1: might be about the size of your thumb. But there 341 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: are other ways that we use body parts to measure 342 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: quantities in reality. Like I'm thinking of people who would say, hey, 343 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 1: I want two fingers of whiskey in the glass. So 344 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: you could have a story about somebody who drinks a 345 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,959 Speaker 1: magical draft of something. They get two fingers of it, 346 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: but then in later tellings it gets confused and it's like, well, yeah, 347 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 1: they drank their own fingers and then they gained this power. Yeah, 348 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: you could have like a sort of a Popeye esque 349 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: character if he has if he's six two fingers in 350 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 1: his in his mouth, then he gets all riled up 351 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 1: and is ready to fight, puts him into a drunken 352 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: brawling spade. So as we'll discuss, the thumb pops up 353 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,880 Speaker 1: in a few other places. Um, but it's largely thought 354 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: to be quite emblematic of Finn McCool. His only real 355 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: defining feature in iconography. I think sometimes there are hounds 356 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: or dogs that are associated with Finn McCool. Uh. But 357 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 1: but the thumb especially is something where you know, historians 358 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: and art historians are looking at at various images. If 359 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 1: they see the thumb being, you know, poked towards the mouth, 360 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,400 Speaker 1: they can they can generally say, with some certain data, 361 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: this must be Finn McCool. And I haven't found an 362 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 1: example of this online or in the books I was 363 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 1: looking at, But apparently many Celtic crosses have various figures 364 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,719 Speaker 1: in the design and sometimes you'll see uh this, uh, 365 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: this thumb brandishing Finn McCool. Characters pop up, or it's 366 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: assumed that it's Finn mcool because who else would it be. Um. So, 367 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 1: if if you, if you've never if you can't imagine 368 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: what a Celtic cross tends will look like. They tend 369 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 1: to be to be a cruciform shape. But then with 370 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: all these kind of compartments for further illustrations and symbols, Now, 371 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: how is it the thumb is usually emphasized in the psychography. 372 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: Is it like glowing or something? Or is he sucking it? 373 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: Is it in his mouth? Um? Like I said, I 374 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: couldn't find a direct example of this that stood out 375 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 1: to me, But I I just they're they're they're gonna 376 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: be smaller figures and they're I don't think they're gonna 377 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: it's gonna be necessarily obvious that like the thumb is 378 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 1: glowing or anything. But just by by virtue of having 379 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: some sort of emphasis on the thumb and a visible 380 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: thumb or even a thumb in the mouth, it's gonna 381 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: be pretty obvious that it's Finn McCool. Now this is 382 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: not related to the thumb, but just as a quick 383 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: side note on you mentioned that some stories of Finn 384 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: McCool emphasizes dogs. I was reading a few of those. 385 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: They are actually some really great dog buddy uh legends 386 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: of Finn, And one of them is about how he 387 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,640 Speaker 1: how he gains a wife who is a person who 388 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: or I think she's like a fairy, but in any case, 389 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: she's transformed into a fawn by an evil wizard and uh, 390 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 1: and he finds her by by virtue of the fact 391 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: that he's out with his hunting dogs and when he 392 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 1: comes across this fawn, his dogs don't go after the 393 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 1: fond and like attack it, but instead settle down and 394 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: cuddle with it. And so then he brings the fawn 395 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: back with him to his to his castle. And once 396 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: they arrived there, the fawn turns into this woman who 397 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: becomes his wife. But then unfortunately she is she is 398 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: tricked and stolen away by the evil wizard. Again interesting interesting. Uh. Now, 399 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: in terms of other accounts of thumbs in uh in 400 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:08,360 Speaker 1: in in Celtic mythology, I did run across another interesting example, 401 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: and this was this is from the or ninety three 402 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: Nordic Celtic Legends Symposium, an article by Rhea knock Ogan 403 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: titled Music Learned from the Fairies, and according to the 404 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: author here that there are many tales of mortals learning 405 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: the music of fairy folk music from beyond our world, 406 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 1: and usually they learn it by hearing it in just 407 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 1: the right place at just the right time, uh you know, 408 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 1: something like ancient ruin strange rocks in the woods, you know, 409 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 1: the sort of place that fairies might appear or hang out. Um. 410 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: And such was also around the time of Solon, like 411 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: this is the time of the year when the veil 412 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: is thin between our world and the next. And there's 413 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: at least one account uh in in Celtic tradition of 414 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: a man hearing fairy music. He's, uh, you know, he 415 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: hears it in the woods or wherever, and does he 416 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: do He sticks his thumb in his mouth whilst hearing 417 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: the music, and as a result he remembered the music. 418 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: And of course this this calls to mind Finn McCool interesting. 419 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: I mean, what does that suggest about our intuitions about 420 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: the power of sucking a thumb that it like, I 421 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: don't know what that means, that that it it has 422 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: some kind of uh grounding power that it can cause 423 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 1: you to, uh to sort of like hold fast against 424 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:30,640 Speaker 1: uh maybe currents of magic or forgetfulness that would otherwise 425 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 1: wash away the memory. Well, yeah, this is a great 426 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: question because I guess, on one hand, let's let's start 427 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: by let's go ahead and assume that that sticking your 428 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: thumb in your mouth actually doesn't have any effect on uh, 429 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: you know, your your your memory or your your your 430 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 1: your stress level or anything like that. Um, it does 431 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: make you wonder if there is if there's something culturally 432 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: in place where, uh where just the idea of sticking 433 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: your thumb in your mouth is like a novel thing 434 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 1: that is done that that is associated with insight. Um. 435 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: I wonder if it is the kind of thing where 436 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: you could stick your thumb in your mouth thinking about 437 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: this tradition and it would actually help you remember something better, 438 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: because it's also like that thing I heard while I 439 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: was sticking my thumb in my mouth. Oh, that's interesting. 440 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: In fact, that even connects to a mnemonic device I've 441 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: I've heard of before, which is uh, basically like if 442 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: if suddenly something happens and you want to remember it 443 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,120 Speaker 1: very well, you should do something really weird immediately so 444 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 1: that you like form a link in your mind between 445 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: that weird memorable thing you did and uh, and and 446 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: whatever thing it is you're trying to remember. Interesting now, 447 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: of course that the thing is with when it comes 448 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: with thumb sucking, Uh, it doesn't seem to be just 449 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 1: a a completely neutral um just here if you will. Uh. 450 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: And we actually have quite a lot of research out 451 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 1: there on thumb sucking, particularly as it relates to children. Right. 452 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: So I was actually reading a brief article in a 453 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 1: pediatric medicine journal reviewing the existing literature on thumbs sucking 454 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 1: as of two thousand eight. So this article was called 455 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: Thumb and Finger Sucking by Lynn Davidson in the Journal 456 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: Pediatrics in Review. Again, this was the year two thousand eight, 457 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: and a few major takeaways from this brief right up. 458 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: Number one is that different studies across time have found 459 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: some some different rates of the prevalence of thumb sucking 460 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: or finger sucking. A lot of times these studies just 461 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: lump thumb and finger sucking in together, so you're not 462 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: necessarily getting a breakdown by which finger it is. But 463 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: I think it is clear that thumbs are the most 464 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: most common finger for infants to suck. But older studies 465 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: found rates in the range of seventy to nine percent 466 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 1: of children showing a thumb or finger sucking behaviors, and 467 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: more recent studies have found rates more like thirty percent 468 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: by the end of the first year after birth. Along 469 00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: with using a pacifier. That with that thirty four percent. 470 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's an either or situation or 471 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 1: an and situation to some children suck thumb and to pacifier, 472 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I don't I don't have a lot 473 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: of direct experience with that, but I mean, I guess 474 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: in some cases you're gonna have a situation where the 475 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: child is gravitating towards sucking on on digits and you 476 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: want to get a pacifier in there instead, and you're like, here, here, 477 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: use this instead. Anyway. There's some variations on these rates, 478 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: uh with the within the first few years of life, 479 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: but Davidson writes that by the time most children reached 480 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: the age of four, these rates have gone way down. 481 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 1: On average, only twelve percent of children in one study 482 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: sucked a finger, including a thumb, by the age of four, 483 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: and pacifier use had gone down to four percent by 484 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: that time. Now here's something I thought was interesting. Apparently, 485 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: during the first few months of life, infants are most 486 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: likely to suck their thumbs during sleep, but by the 487 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: end of the first year more infants do it while awake. 488 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,159 Speaker 1: There were no differ princes in rates of thumb sucking 489 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 1: prevalence by sex. And oh and I thought this was interesting. 490 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 1: Up to fifty percent of children who suck their thumbs 491 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: or fingers also tend to hold a special object while 492 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: doing so. M hmm. This is yeah, sort of the 493 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: classic I I have sudden my my my thumb or 494 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 1: my fingers, and I have to hold onto a special 495 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,360 Speaker 1: blanket or a special stuff. He that sort of thing. Yeah, now, 496 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: there have been a number of historical explanations for thumb 497 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: sucking UH. One that must be cited, unfortunately, as Freud 498 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,439 Speaker 1: Freud being Freud believed it to be an expression of 499 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: what he called quote infantile sexuality, and that when it 500 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: persisted beyond infancy, it was a symptom of emotional disturbance. UH. Obviously, 501 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: Freudian is um held a lot of sway for a while, 502 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 1: despite it being profoundly weird and not actually being subject 503 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 1: to empirical testing. But there are some more recent theories 504 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: that seem better grounded and experimental research, and they generally 505 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 1: suggest that UM thumb sucking grows out of instinctual behaviors 506 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: in infants, that sucking behaviors are a universal instinctual behavior 507 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: in newborns that they use for breastfeeding or bottle feeding, 508 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: and that after that, for some reason, in some children, 509 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: this instinctual behavior continues beyond the point of nutritional relevance, 510 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 1: and the instinctual behavior might be reinforced through conditioning, and 511 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 1: in some cases it just continues with a substitute such 512 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: as a thumb or a finger. I don't know if 513 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: there is a good agreed upon answer as to why 514 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 1: this reinforced behavior would be continued in some children but 515 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: not others, Like what makes the difference? I'm not sure. However, 516 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: it might be informative to note that some studies have 517 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: found that thumb sucking appears to be especially common when 518 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: children are board tired or anxious, and this suggests that 519 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: it plays some kind of self soothing role. Yeah, and 520 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: I was finding some some evidence to back this up 521 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,719 Speaker 1: as well. There's a two thousand fifteen article published in 522 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: Minerva PEDIATRICAU that concluded that quote, a thumbsucking subject puts 523 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: the thumb in the mouth to stimulate the nasal palatal 524 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: receptors of trigeminists and obtain muscular balance and a release 525 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: of physical and psychological tension. Now that's also interesting when 526 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: you when you think about the Okay, we have Finn 527 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: McCool doing this as an adult. You can certainly find 528 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: adult thumbsuckers who speak to the calming effects of the practice. 529 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: Um So, I wonder if it is too much of 530 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: a stretch to imagine an Irish warrior of old who 531 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: you know, just you know, he's this wonderful hunter and 532 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: warrior and all this, but he needs to calm down 533 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: every now and then, and this stressful role in society, 534 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: and if you're going to ponder an important decision, you 535 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: need to reach a place of relative peace. And perhaps 536 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: placing his thumb inside of his mouth allows him to 537 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: do so, and and and maybe you end up seeing 538 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: the creation of magical explanations for what's going on here, 539 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: as opposed to just saying, well, he never quite stopped 540 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: sucking his thumb when he's nervous or stressed. Oh man, 541 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: that would be an amazing origin story. Yes, so it 542 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: begins with this beast of a warrior, great hunter, you know, 543 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 1: blow the hunting horn. I will defend the shores of Ireland. 544 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: But I also suck my thumb and uh. And people 545 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: are like, why is he sucking his thumb? And somebody 546 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: else is like, well, it's what he does when he 547 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: needs to, you know, see into the future. Yeah. Thank now, 548 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: another possible connection. I was thinking about a related connection anyway. 549 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: Sometimes there's more stress placed on the idea that Finn 550 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,479 Speaker 1: is placing his thumb behind his upper teeth, and of 551 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: course thumb sucking itself impacts the palette. I was reminded 552 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: of traditions in meditation that you encounter in which one 553 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: is asked to hold the tip of one's tongue to 554 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: the roof of the mouth. Sometimes this is described in 555 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: terms of you know, of course, bodily energy flow. Other 556 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: times it's just being a way of of altering the 557 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: flow of saliva in the mouth. Though it is sometimes 558 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: described as a way of eliminating negative thoughts or even 559 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: a way of sort of weeding out speech based thoughts. Well, 560 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: and I'd wonder if you know, any kind of meditative 561 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: practice that involves unusual activities with the body is essentially 562 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: just trying to trying to direct your concentration away from 563 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: the sort of default mode flow of of thoughts that 564 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: are that arise. Uh. Normally, if if you're thinking about 565 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: doing a sort of strange repetitive action with your body, 566 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: you're probably less inclined to start thinking about, oh man, 567 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: next Thursday. I really yeah, yeah exactly. Um So I 568 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: feel like that is I couldn't find any like real 569 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: research on this, and perhaps I'm missing something, but um, 570 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: this seems plausible to me, like if there was some 571 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 1: sort of like ritual uh we see in meditation, this 572 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: is a ritual touching of something to the roof of 573 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: your mouth. That is then associated with um with some 574 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:13,239 Speaker 1: degree of anxiety relief and some degree of relaxation. Uh. 575 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: We we see some evidence to support the idea that 576 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: that thumb sucking itself can reduce anxiety. Uh. And then 577 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: we have this idea too that just sort of novel 578 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: behaviors and rituals of relaxation, rituals of grounding can can 579 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 1: very much be be helpful. I'm not advising anybody to 580 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: take up sucking of the thumb as a as a 581 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: as a way to try and uh, you know, find 582 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: balance or to see into the future, but I feel 583 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: like there's some there's some interesting leads here to potentially 584 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: pull on to sort of try and make sense of 585 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: of where this may come from. And uh and and 586 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: how such a either at the very least such a 587 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: myth comes together, but but also the possibility that this 588 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,719 Speaker 1: is something that could have been practiced to some limited 589 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: degree uh uh you know, in in Ireland of old. Yeah. 590 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: Also another note, Yes, so we were not encouraging thumb 591 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: sucking for adults, especially because that can cause dental problems 592 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: if if you're doing chronic thumb sucking after the baby 593 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: teeth have been replaced. Yeah, that's the that's of course, 594 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: the the prime reason that the adults discourage the act 595 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: and want to to wean kids away from the sucking 596 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 1: of fingers and thumbs, because yeah, once the baby teeth 597 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: are going, you've got the adult teeth going in. You 598 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: can you can jack up those adult teeth by continually 599 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: pre pressing the thumb up there into the palette. It 600 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: seems like the methods used to discourage thumb sucking and 601 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: and train children not to do it have become more 602 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 1: humane over time, because I was reading about some of 603 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: the older methods people used to try to, you know, 604 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: get their kid to get the thumb out of the mouth, 605 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: and it was brutal, like one was about these ideas 606 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: of having the sharp implements put on the backs of 607 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: the teeth that would like cause pain in the thumb. 608 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: Have you read about this, Yeah, yeah, I think I've 609 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: heard about that before. Um, yeah, obviously that does not 610 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: sound good, or of course putting putting noxious chemicals or 611 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: something on the thumb. Yeah, I think I think people 612 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: have better methods now. Yeah, Now, one of the interesting 613 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 1: that we talked about, this idea of the thumb sucking 614 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: being you know, the thumb in the mouth being kind 615 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 1: of an island for this mythology of Finn McCool, and 616 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: certainly again it is a defining one of the defining 617 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: factors of this this particular hero. But you do see 618 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,760 Speaker 1: thumbs sucking, thumb in the mouth motifs popping up with 619 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:39,359 Speaker 1: some other heroes, particularly A few examples that have come 620 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 1: to mind include um Ciggurd, the hero there. Actually I 621 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: saw an image of him that it's like a carving, 622 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: and you see him with thumb in the mouth, So 623 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 1: that seems to be very much related to what we're 624 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 1: looking at here. Another hero that we see lined up 625 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: with the thumb is tal Yesen, So there seems to 626 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 1: be some connection Betwe Queen, Finn McCool and these heroes 627 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,359 Speaker 1: as well. Yeah. McKillop notes in his book that there 628 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 1: was a controversial suggestion by Robert Graves that that Heracles 629 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,760 Speaker 1: or Hercules, the Greek hero, was associated with the thumb 630 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 1: in the same way that Achilles is associated with the heel, 631 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: kind of these body parts that are emblematic of the person. 632 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,320 Speaker 1: But McKillip brings that association up specifically in the context 633 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,279 Speaker 1: of it of it being kind of kind of doubtful. Now, 634 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: outside of these these three heroes, I wasn't really really 635 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: finding much that that that even resembled Finn McCool. But 636 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 1: there is an interesting thumbsucking bit of myth making that 637 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: pop pops up in Hindu traditions. In the Hindu epic 638 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:47,720 Speaker 1: the Mahabarata, there's the story of King van Ashva, who 639 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: apparently has trouble conceiving a child with any of his concubines, 640 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: and so he winds up drinking a magic potion that 641 00:35:55,160 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: makes him pregnant. So when this occurs, his you know, 642 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,840 Speaker 1: he realizes, well, there's some some additional problems now that 643 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 1: I have to deal with. So he turns to the 644 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,799 Speaker 1: divine physicians and they cut open his thigh so that 645 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: he can actually give birth to the baby. But then 646 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 1: how is he to nourish the child? Well, then we 647 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: have Indra, the King of Davis, to cut open his 648 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: thumb and this allows milk to leak forth from the 649 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: thumb so that he can nurse his infant son in 650 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: this manner, And this is why the story goes, did 651 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: babies sometimes suck their thumbs? Wow? Interesting? Yeah, no direct 652 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 1: connection between this and Finn McCool, but just another kind 653 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 1: of cool thumbsucking mythology to to reference here. The more 654 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,879 Speaker 1: I think about the idea of a of a thumbsucking 655 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 1: warrior action hero, the more I love it, Like I 656 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: want to see a movie like this, or it doesn't 657 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: have to be thumbsucking. It could also be, Um, you 658 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,720 Speaker 1: know you're you're great warrior, great swinger of the sword, 659 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,719 Speaker 1: like has a blankie. Yeah, yeah, I mean we had, 660 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,920 Speaker 1: uh see who's the telling of all his character that 661 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 1: does a kolchak uh ko jack that that had the 662 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 1: the sucker like that was his whole thing, right, lollipops 663 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: the lollipop. Yeah, uh, that's not too far removed from it. 664 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:18,719 Speaker 1: I cannot do detective until I get my lolly. Yes, well, Rob, 665 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: I have greatly enjoyed this journey into Finn McCool. Yeah, 666 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 1: this one has been a lot of fun. Like I say, 667 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,839 Speaker 1: I wasn't super familiar with Finn McCool prior to this, 668 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 1: and I certainly had had somehow skipped over or forgotten 669 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:34,279 Speaker 1: anything about the thumb of knowledge. So this was this 670 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 1: was a fun journey into Irish mythology. Always fun to 671 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 1: do that around this time of year, you know, um 672 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 1: previous episodes of the show, we have talked about our 673 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,959 Speaker 1: love for the Time Life Enchanted World books that were 674 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 1: fabulously advertised on TV commercials with Vincent Price where you 675 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: know he's I love to carrl up with a good book. 676 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: Did his eyes glow green in those commercials? I think so? Um, 677 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 1: they may have. Well, a couple of the volumes of 678 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 1: the Time Life Enchanted World have stories of Finn McCool 679 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,760 Speaker 1: and there you know what I gotta say, By and large, 680 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 1: those books are really good. They're good syntheses of their 681 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: sources and uh and pretty well written, much better than 682 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,839 Speaker 1: you would expect for something that was advertised on TV 683 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: that way. Oh absolutely, yeah. I'm I'm actually reading through 684 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 1: the Dragon volume from that collection right now with my son, 685 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: and uh, there's some sections of it that I feel 686 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,279 Speaker 1: like we're a little a little wordier than they need 687 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: to be, but we're having a lot of fun with it. 688 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 1: You have the longer sections, the shorter sections. You have 689 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: this wonderful mix of original artwork as well as traditional 690 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:46,279 Speaker 1: artwork to uh, to illustrate these tales. Uh. So, yeah, 691 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 1: they're there are a lot of fun. Do you do 692 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,040 Speaker 1: you have them? Al Ja? It was a wonderful gift 693 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 1: from my wife Rachel got me the complete Time Life 694 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:57,840 Speaker 1: Enchanted World collection. Oh nice. It's something like twenty something volumes, 695 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 1: all told. Right. Uh, that might about right. I haven't 696 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 1: read them all yet. So the stories about Finn McCool 697 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 1: are in the ones called Acts of Valor or maybe 698 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: Tales of Valor. That's the one with Valor and the title, 699 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 1: and then the one called Fabled Lands. Yeah, okay, I 700 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 1: have one of those, but not the other. I uh. 701 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,719 Speaker 1: For the longest I just I kind of assumed that 702 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 1: I had the full collection that had been gifted to 703 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,719 Speaker 1: me from an aunt when I was a child. But 704 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:24,800 Speaker 1: I've come to realize, oh, I don't have them all, 705 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 1: so um. Like, just the other day, as we were 706 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 1: recording this, I was looking at oh which I was 707 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: looking at, like, Okay, which ones do I not have 708 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:33,359 Speaker 1: that I really should have? And I noticed that I 709 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: had two of the Black Books, but not the third. 710 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: So I immediately had to order that one up. One 711 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: of the great things about these books is that I 712 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,759 Speaker 1: guess they were just so mass produced. You can pick 713 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,919 Speaker 1: these volumes up for you know, for reasonable sums. Uh. 714 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 1: You know, sometimes you'll find one's even like dirt cheap. Uh. 715 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: So there there are plenty. There's plenty of Enchanted World 716 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: to go around, if anyone's interested. I'm incredibly proud of 717 00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,080 Speaker 1: my Enchanted World collection. It's a it's a treasure m 718 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 1: all right. Where we're gonna go ahead and close it 719 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 1: out here. And and I guess I wish everybody the St. 720 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 1: Patrick's Day while we're at it. But we'd love to 721 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:09,759 Speaker 1: hear from everyone out there. We'd love to hear from 722 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,280 Speaker 1: uh Irish folk and non Irish folk alike. Um regarding 723 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 1: these uh these myths, these these tales, uh, you know, 724 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,279 Speaker 1: thumbs in the mouth, thumbsucking in general, or even just 725 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 1: an Enchanted World book chat, what's your favorite volume? Did 726 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 1: you have these growing up or did you just want them? 727 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 1: Have you have you rectified this in your adult life, etcetera? Uh, 728 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:35,799 Speaker 1: just let us know we'd love to hear from you. 729 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,759 Speaker 1: In the meantime, you can find core episodes of Stuff 730 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind on Tuesdays and Thursdays and the 731 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed. On Monday's, we 732 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,320 Speaker 1: do listener mail. On Wednesday's, we do an artifact or 733 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 1: a monster fact. The one we did this week is 734 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,799 Speaker 1: is also Irish themed. And then on Friday's we set 735 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,400 Speaker 1: most serious matters aside and we just talked about a 736 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: strange film, Huge things. As always to our excellent audio 737 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 1: producer set Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get 738 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,320 Speaker 1: in touch with us with feedback on this episode or 739 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 1: any other, to suggest topic for the future, or just 740 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,399 Speaker 1: to say hello, you can email us at contact at 741 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow 742 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 1: your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For more 743 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,759 Speaker 1: podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 744 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.